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Episode 18—Mary Pilon
132 Plays9 years ago
Mary Pilon is the New York Times best-selling author of "The Monopolists" and a freelance "story person".
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
What is up, CNF-ers? It's been far too long, but I hope you've had a chance to catch up on some of the past episodes of this cool CNFing podcast. Coming at you from the bowels of the hashtag CNF podcast recording studio, which is to say, the closet in our bedroom. It's humble, to put it mildly. Anyway,
00:00:29
Speaker
So let's pin to the hashtag CNF Quarkboard. Well, I've been posting cool quotes on Instagram, Brendan O'Mara, for those interested. This quote, though I haven't posted on Instagram yet because it's a bit too long, comes from the great actor Bryan Cranston, who you may remember played Walter White on Breaking Bad, among many other things. But I think this quote is really cool because it pertains to not just acting, but really the creative life
00:00:57
Speaker
And also just anyone who does creative work, whether that be writing, acting, or whatever, I think the principles are what's important. So here it is. In order to have a successful career in this biz, the entertainment business, whether you're writing, directing, acting, or producing, or whatever the case may be, there are components that are necessary for that to come about. One is talent. You really do have to have talent. You have to work hard.
00:01:27
Speaker
and get educated and learn your craft and learn your business. Aside from that is personal development, patience and perseverance. But there's also a component that is necessary. That's the wild card and that's luck. You have to have a healthy dose of luck to become successful. That's just the way it is. You can't prepare for it, but you can be ready for it when it does come to you. So I really dig that quote. So,
00:01:56
Speaker
But in any case, you know who has all of that in spades? Maybe minus the luck because she really doesn't believe in it. Well, let's cue the music.
Meet Mary Pallone
00:02:07
Speaker
It's episode 18, featuring Mary Pallone, the New York Times bestselling author of The Monopolis, a gripping tale about the ubiquitous board game Monopoly, and freelancer extraordinaire. She has been named to one of those 30 best journalists under 30, so you know she's legit.
00:02:27
Speaker
While I've got your attention, be sure to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, share it with friends, share it on Facebook, and retweet it on Twitter.
00:02:35
Speaker
Also, be sure to sign up for my newsletter over at my website, BrendanOmera.com. I'm changing up the format and probably going to a monthly newsletter instead of the RSS one. I toyed with a weekly one for two weeks, but that was too high maintenance. I have big plans, but it all starts with getting people subscribed to the newsletter and the podcast. This, my friends, is my collection plate. So without further ado,
Exploring Creative Processes
00:03:03
Speaker
Enjoy this conversation with Mary Pallone.
00:03:25
Speaker
Well yeah, he's generous with his time too and loves talking shop, which is really the point of the podcast is to promote people's work I admire and to dive into the processes, work habits, routines, and just kind of like get to know the person who does the good work. And you know, you fit the credentials and spades. Cool, well thank you so much.
00:03:48
Speaker
Well you're welcome, and sometimes I ask some just like really random questions too that sometimes don't have anything to do with narrative journalism. First one being, and I always like to ask something that's a little off the beaten path, and I wanna know, what is your stance on Batman as a superhero?
00:04:09
Speaker
Oh, Batman is a superhero. This is like one of the biggest debates. We got a big movie coming up. So I need I need to know where you stand on this. And he's not my favorite. I'll put that out there. Right. You could do he's not he's just not my favorite superhero, period.
00:04:24
Speaker
It never has been, never will be. That doesn't mean I don't like the movies. It doesn't mean I don't like the comics. He's never been ... You know how it is. Certain superheroes you're just totally gravitated towards and certain ones you're not. He's never been the magnet for me. I actually think you could do a whole doctoral thesis on Bruce Wayne and class.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah, and because, you know, this idea, I mean, the big knock, right? The classic one is like, he's just rich, right? But also, you know, I used to, when I was the Wall Street Journal, at one point, you know, I was covering mostly Wall Street. And at one point, I was specifically covering wealth management, which is how like the ultra rich deal with their money. And, you know, which is hilarious, because that's something that's so far from my own personal experience.
00:05:11
Speaker
And one of the things you learn is that, you know, for all of the issues that come with that, there is also a huge power to philanthropy and investing. And so this idea that like rich people just don't offer anything to society, I think is like a little dismissive. So I have like a little bit more nuanced view of the critique of Batman. But that said, you know, I was just never, you know, especially because Superman has that whole journalism backstory with Clark Kent.
00:05:39
Speaker
Like so, you know, there's like the step away view and then there's my personal view. And so I do think the critique of Batman could be a little bit more nuanced, whether I agree with it or not. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so do you who would be your superhero of choice?
00:05:56
Speaker
Well, I grew up like mostly Superman and then Wonder Woman too, although now I have a kind of more complicated view of Wonder Woman. But we also grew up reading a lot of Fantastic Four. I remember those being like a really
00:06:11
Speaker
you know, a really resonant theme. But one of the jokes my family is that when my brother and I would read Superman comics, I would like skip to the Clark Kent, Lois Lane passages. So I like, which was maybe an early sign that I was into journalism. Like I thought all the new like exciting stuff was happening in the newsroom. And I've been like over the last few years really rethinking Lois Lane. And like if you actually read the Superman, there's actually a collection I have at somewhere in my apartment of
00:06:41
Speaker
The just daily planet staff of superman and you read it and it's such a product of its times and he's just like mansplaining to lowest lane now and I'm like, oh god, like this is so like not like we need to rewrite this whole arc to make it more contemporary and you know, nobody's ever like.
00:06:56
Speaker
you know talking to Superman about his inferiority complex and like so yeah so that I think that's what's so fun about certain things you read as a kid is you can reread them as an adult in a totally different way and it doesn't make them more or less valuable but so I'm having some a lot of grappling with Superman.
00:07:13
Speaker
because that's kind of my different answer, which I know is lame, but it's okay. Well, it sounds like you've given us a lot of thought. I know, right? This is what you think about on the treadmill, or at least me. I'm like, oh, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, where do I stand? Very nice. All right, so you're at a dinner party, and someone asks you what you do.
Mary's Career Journey
00:07:33
Speaker
What is your answer to that question?
00:07:35
Speaker
Oh, what a good question. And actually, in the last year, it's changed quite a bit. The short answer is journalist-author. The longer one is story person. Because, you know, classically, you know, for years, it used to be very simple. I was like, you know, I'm a staff reporter at the Journal or the Times. And then the Monopoly stuff was kind of this nutty side project. And until a book comes out, you're just like ballooning to and writing about board games. So it's not...
00:08:00
Speaker
You know, I've been that crazy person at dinner parties for a long time, but now that I'm kind of freelancing all over the place and I find myself, you know, a lot, I mean, kind of journalism for lack of a better term in the kind of newspaper magazine sense is still kind of my bread and butter. But I find myself, excuse me, more interested in kind of
00:08:18
Speaker
different ways that we're telling stories now. So that could be screenwriting, that could be game design, that could be podcasting, that could be... So I think the core of what I love to do is story. That's like what gets me up every morning and excited. So I hesitate a little to just say like journalist or author because it seems limiting.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's... I was thinking how I would answer that question too, and I wouldn't consider myself a reporter, per se, though I do some reporting, but I totally...
00:08:51
Speaker
I totally lean more on story. Like, story is what drives me to the page, drives me to read and everything. So I think you're saying story person is really like a great way of saying it. And you can't say, when you're saying, if you wrote fiction, you could always say, oh, I'm a novelist or a short story writer, but in nonfiction, you can't really say, well, I'm like a narrative journalist or a creative nonfictionist. So it's kind of a weird
00:09:17
Speaker
a weird place to put a title, but story person I think is the best thing you can say in a lot of ways. Right. And what's so funny, and I think that's an important distinction you're making between fiction and nonfiction is that with the exception of some screenwriting, almost all that I do is true storytelling. And I think that, I mean, everybody's different in journalism, but for me, the reporting is the fun part, like the learning, the traveling, the interviewing. The writing is when I like lock myself in my apartment and I feel like a hermit and I'm bearded and I don't know what I'm doing. And I like,
00:09:45
Speaker
And some people it's the opposite, right? And so the reason I think I love the reporting is it's kind of a boondoggle of a gig, right? Like you get paid to like learn about stuff, which seems nuts. And I just get so riveted by real people and their stories. And I know that sounds cheesy, but I've always, you know, I one time took a fiction seminar in college and I got so excited because I was like,
00:10:11
Speaker
I'm going to sit down and write this fictitious short story and look at me. I'm just like hemming away, blah, blah, blah. And then I read the story and it was just like, it was pseudo-memoir. It wasn't fiction at all. I was like, oh, God, I can't even like it. Who are these people who have these little universes in their head? You know, like, oh. So I don't know. I mean, I have deep admiration. I'm a voracious reader of fiction, but I don't know if it's something I could do, at least at this point.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, I'm the same way. I read a ton of fiction, mainly so I can say, alright, how can I pull off what they're doing in fiction from a pure mechanical way, but make sure that it's all verifiably true, because I just find that more interesting. And a lot of ways. I just don't have the imagination.
00:10:56
Speaker
to do what they do, so if I just do a ton of reporting and then tell it in a way that reads like fiction, that satisfies, like I get my Joneses off in that kind of way, and it sounds like you're kind of similar in that sense.
00:11:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that with Monopoly, I read a lot of books about screenwriting, actually, because I felt like, and I still feel this way, that the longer you're writing as a journalist, it's a huge ask of someone's time. And that's something I get really paranoid about. Am I wasting someone's time? That's one of my middle-of-the-night fears. And screenwriters, that's a structure game.
00:11:33
Speaker
something about movies, you know Capote always talk about the immediacy of film that they really do really really well during grabbing your attention and game design is really good about this too because it's psychology it's making you turn around the corner it's making you click on the next thing it's and I think that those are all things that journalists can rip off you know there's no reason people need to feel like they're being fed vitamins when they're you know I mean there's different kinds right like there's like a daily story like at the Times which is like a very kind of classic here's your information you want it quick you want it easily but then
00:12:03
Speaker
When you get to the narrative stuff, yes, you're trying to teach somebody about something, but you're also trying to like, there is an entertainment component to it. And that's something that I think years ago, I wouldn't have even thought of. And now I think more and more people, especially now that the way people are reading is changing in terms of devices and iPads and such.
00:12:21
Speaker
That's something people are thinking more about because they kind of have to. There is this idea of like, well, if people are really going to spend time with you, you know, how you do compete with Candy Crush now as a journalist. If you do compete with, you know, God only knows what other things are people's phones these days. And I actually think that can be a good thing in the end.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, it really helps you drill down on your word economy and also when you finish a chapter or a set piece, it's like you always have to have in the back of your mind the stakes of the reader and that, okay, do, have you...
00:12:56
Speaker
earned the right for them to go to chapter two because they can just turn you off. So it's like you have to have that engine in mind and that sense of narrative pacing because especially if they're reading on an electronic device, they are one tap away from their email or Twitter or anything. So it's like you really need to have a real sense of information but also give them the reason to keep going.
00:13:25
Speaker
I don't know about you, but I feel like now I read more than I ever have in my life. Between like Instapaper and the New Yorker, both the print delivery at my home and the iPad app and the phone app, I feel like also I'm just less angry when I'm stuck in line now because I have all this stuff in my hand.
00:13:45
Speaker
you know to entertain me or inform me so yeah I think that's a really good point and I you know I don't know where things are going but I just and I'm very excited actually about the different things that we can do now as storytellers and actually with book number two you know and I'm in the very very early stages I haven't even really sat down and started writing the darn thing but um
Modern Storytelling Mediums
00:14:06
Speaker
It's exciting to think about things visually ahead of time and be like, oh, how could we use photos? How could we use video? How could we integrate that a way that I couldn't have even dreamed of, you know, even five years ago when I was starting to write the monopolist. So, yeah, and I, you know, it's interesting because I think that there's people who are very resistant to that and there are parts of that that I resist, but then there's the exciting part of it. So I think a lot of journalists now, you kind of have to wear the inventor hat maybe in a way that you didn't used to.
00:14:33
Speaker
yeah which goes to your point of being more of a story person instead of reporter or journalist it's like how are you gonna use your unique talents the the nature of your talent to convey the story you want to tell and you're just like embracing
00:14:50
Speaker
the new mediums that are out there, because when TV came along, they said I was gonna kill radio, and so forth, so everything evolves, but nothing truly dies, and what really survives is someone with a unique set of talents, like yourself, that can convey a good story, and people are always hungry for story, and the people who have that in their bones will always rise to the top, I think.
00:15:19
Speaker
Thanks. It sounds really cheesy, but I just grew up in a house where we had bedtime stories. Whether that was watching I Love Lucy with my dad and understanding why the jokes were funny to my mother as a psychologist. She didn't talk about her clients personally, but a big part of psychology is understanding someone's story. Where does this come from? Whether that's schizophrenia or what have you.
00:15:44
Speaker
And it's funny you mentioned, I realized I haven't really talked to anybody. So the book came out in paperback last week and I finally got to come clean about this thing. I wrote something for Medium about how, so end notes for me are this amazing map in non-fiction. And some authors use them, some don't. And I feel like Robert Caro is like Michael Jordan.
00:16:04
Speaker
If you're a researcher, they're huge because you need to know where people got things. If you're a journalist, it's an amazing way to shut down critics and be really transparent about where you're getting sourcing. It's something you can't really do in newspapers as much. You can use hyperlinks sometimes.
00:16:20
Speaker
Anyway, so I had this moment where I was freaking out about my endnotes when I was closing the book and I decided to like hide a puzzle in it. So I wrote something to the effect of like, hey, if you're actually reading this, if you're actually a human being out there in the universe, email me an anagram at this address or whatever.
00:16:36
Speaker
And then we ship the book and move on with my life, and I kind of just sit and wait. So the book comes out February of last year to non-critics, I guess, because you send galleys out. And I kind of sat, and I was just waiting. I was like, who is reading? Who's actually reading this thing? And not only reading this thing, but maybe the most boring or overlooked part. This is page 200 or whatever.
00:16:59
Speaker
And sure enough, a few days in, this really nice doctor in San Diego emails me an anagram and was like, oh, I loved your book. And then I started getting more and more people. And I was so humbled by that. I was like, wow, people who aren't my relatives are really getting into the weeds with this thing. And those are just the people who email you, so you have to assume that some people read it and don't email, which is totally fine.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah, I was like really like I felt very warm and fuzzy about that because I think that so much of writing and Margaret Atwood has talked about this that especially with books like you historically you are off on your own and you don't know who's reading it or what the impact has been and I do think that one of the things
00:17:40
Speaker
that I've loved about both newspaper work online and also the book is that you really hear from these people and your readers become these human beings that I think in generations past you just had to kind of fantasize about and they're here and they're emailing you and they're calling you and I find that part really exciting.
00:17:58
Speaker
Well, it goes the other way too, that if you respond to them, they all of a sudden get, they are reminded that, oh wait, it's not a robot writing the story, it's an actual person, and that tends, like if they come at you in an aggressive way, and you kind of email them and placate them, they're like, oh, I'm sorry, it just came off the wrong way. It's like you are reminding them that you're a person too.
00:18:21
Speaker
I didn't even take it a step further, which is that they're your customers. They're your customers. I remember at the time of the journal, you really get the gamut of reader email. This is still the case. That's everything from people calling you just horrible things to little kids doing book reports to little old ladies.
00:18:44
Speaker
fourth-grade teacher whatever it may be and I loved writing back to them and it's really time-consuming you know it's kind of those things like you wake up early make a pot of coffee you kind of like charge through and some you know some weeks I'm quicker at it than others but I really really loved that because I remember as a kid you know you would
00:19:01
Speaker
send fan letters out to an ether or something. A colleague of mine from the journal, Jason Zweig, wrote this great blog post about finding a letter he'd written to Norman Mailer when he was a kid. I don't know. I just think that's important. I think one of the things that the internet has done a great job of in pretty bad ways is dehumanized people. I think that's why you have trolls and commenter culture and stuff.
00:19:24
Speaker
And I think the more you can kind of remind people exactly what you're talking about, that especially creative work is from a human being. And I think that's gonna be the stuff that lasts. And I think that's the power, that's the good side of it. And things like support groups and networking and the thing that the internet does really well, which is bring people together. And I know it sounds warm and fuzzy and woo woo, but like, I do think that there is a book component of that. And you see some authors really gravitating towards that. And I think that that's fabulous. And I think there could be more of that.
00:19:54
Speaker
So you grew up in Oregon, right? Yes. So what was that like growing up in Oregon? You said your mother was a psychiatrist or a psychologist. And what did your father do?
Personal Influences and Inspirations
00:20:06
Speaker
My dad had a variety of jobs, but when I think of what he did most, he worked in radio as a DJ. I grew up in a house with a lot of records and learning more about how to make a mix tape than take the SATs. Oregon, it's a funny place. My family's roots go pretty far back there. I grew up in Eugene, which is about
00:20:27
Speaker
two hours out of Portland. It's a funky little place because it's in the Lamet Valley, so that's Portland, Eugene, the cities. By the way, there's only three million people in the whole state. It's not talking about the metropolis in Eugene. I think it's about 100, 150,000. Therefore, everybody knows everybody. It's pretty easy to have connections.
00:20:51
Speaker
But it's cold and dark and rainy and I think this is common. The stuff that you think is normal as a kid growing up you don't realize is weird until you leave. I always joke with my brother about this because we grew up playing a lot of
00:21:05
Speaker
games, like video games, board games, puzzles. And I read all the time. And I don't know, I mean, if I grew up in like Southern California, you know, maybe I'd be more athletic, but not as into books. And so I think that, you know, that I wonder about weather and reading, like that's a chart I'd love to make some time because I'm just convinced that because I grew up in a cold, rainy place, I became like an indoor recess kid.
00:21:28
Speaker
Um, and yeah, and I, you know, I had a, I mean, I went to public school there and then I was one of those kids that just always for me, young age, wanted to move to New York and I wanted to travel and I would look at an Atlas and then I did. So I left when I was, uh,
00:21:46
Speaker
18 for college and I still have a lot of family and friends there and I I joke with friends You know because people say like how can you live in New York and have it be sane and I'm like well I've never lived in New York and not had Like a Pacific Northwest escape hatch every three to six months where that you know, I'm kind of like sent back to the woods So I do have kind of a strange hybrid life now where they're really other than living abroad in the US the only two places I've lived are like Woodsy, Oregon and New York City and I don't like I
00:22:13
Speaker
I know there's a whole bunch in between, but I'm like, well, if there's not horses and cows, and if there's not a subway, I don't know what to do. So yeah, it's fun. It's a great spot.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, I have a romantic idea about Oregon, probably the same way you had a romantic idea one time about New York. And going there, just the idea of the lifestyle and the geography of the place, I find just immeasurably appealing. And I can't wait to head out in that direction at some point. But it seems awesome.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny, you know, I have a kind of a running joke with my friends that Brooklyn and Oregon are becoming the same place. Say that there's like, both have like exposed brick and people wearing plaid and like, this is like microbrews. And so I used it like that plane ride used to be like this big dramatic thing. And now I'm like, I don't know, like,
00:23:07
Speaker
People in New York are really fetishizing the Northwest, and people in the Northwest are, you know, like, I mean, people here, now there's like Stumptown Coffee, like, everywhere. I'm like, what? Like, everything's just blobbing into this one hipster subculture. Like, ah, man.
00:23:23
Speaker
So like growing up in Oregon, you know, clearly like the state mascot is like Steve Prefontaine. And you wrote a great piece for Grantland about Pre and I was wondering,
00:23:38
Speaker
Like what impression, and you do some, and you're a runner too, like not a track runner, but I believe you run long distances and so forth. So I imagine that Pre had some sort of an influence on you growing up, and then you wrote about him obviously. So I was wondering what his impact was on your life growing up in his backyard.
00:24:01
Speaker
What an interesting question. Both my parents were at the University of Oregon and my aunts and uncles all in that era. I think if you grew up in Oregon today, yes, you still hear about pre, but I had this extra layer of having ... My dad sold us a four, so it was just talked about a lot. Strangely, I didn't actually personally get into running until after I left Oregon.
00:24:25
Speaker
I think it's one of those things you grow up there with and i was very allergic to sports as a kid ironically i was very i was way more into music and theater and going to punk shows and like because i mean eugene is a very sports-centric culture and i was just was like too busy pretending to be rebellious although i was pretty bad at that too i liked school so much um
00:24:46
Speaker
So and now, you know, and I, I'm very much in the Murakami school of like running and writing to me are very related and they're very thick and they're very, and, and so pre the backstory on that one is it's bizarre. So I had grown up for years like any kid in Eugene hearing
00:25:04
Speaker
C. P. Fontaine, he just got hammered at a party and crashed his car. What an idiot. He's kind of like the James Dean of town, and he's told us this cautionary drunk driving tale. And then I went back in 2012 to cover the track trials, the Olympic track trials for The Times. And I was catching up with somebody, and I was at a diner. And somebody who I'd gone to high school with just mentioned in passing, blah, blah, blah. Well, I heard he wasn't actually drunk that night.
00:25:34
Speaker
And then it turns out that she tipped me off to somebody who had been there that night. And that was in 2012. And I just couldn't like, I was like, what? You know, it was just so counter to everything that I had heard. And I just had never looked into it. And I got, I think back then, I think it was in 2012, I got the police report just kind of on my own. I was like, you know, I just.
00:25:57
Speaker
I want to know more about this. It was before Serial, but I remember when Serial came out just thinking, oh my God, I feel Sarah K. Dick's pain so much. What's real and what's not? Things happened so long ago, and you feel like you don't have context. Over years, I was chipping away at it. Then when I left my contract at the Times and for the first time, my entire career could write for anybody anywhere. I've been reading Grantland for years.
00:26:21
Speaker
You know, they reached out to me and they were like, you know, do you have anything you want to do in Grantland? I mean, rest in peace. But like those stories, I would argue, are very specific. Like, you know, like they're kind of like these offbeat, you know, sports stories that again, they're longer, which is so like a treat when you're a writer. So, you know, you have to have something you can really sink your teeth into.
00:26:41
Speaker
And I knew that my book tour was going to end. I knew I was going to be looping through Seattle and Portland and then making a pit stop in Eugene. And I thought, what cooler way to take a week between running around, running around, yammering, yammering about the book to really delve in and take a week and just do this. And Grantland, one of the things that made it so cool to write there, and that was the only piece I've done for them, is I was reporting the story. And I felt it was so funny. I was like, wow, I went from book tour to being small town reporter of my hometown.
00:27:09
Speaker
you know, and like tracking down these people in the police report and so many of them and they're all characters in the story now, they were still there, you know, nobody really leaves Oregon. And it was the anniversary of Spoon River Anthology coming out, which has always been one of my favorite things in the world. I don't know if you've read it, but it's, you know, I've really mastered since this collection of poems in a town and each one
00:27:31
Speaker
is a different character. The Undertaker poem is what I've sent a lot of people. As I was reporting, I emailed my editor at Grantland and I was like, hey, I know this sounds crazy, but can I do Spoon River Anthology but with runners? It's a story about people who haven't let go. It's a story about people who are left behind when someone dies.
00:27:51
Speaker
whether he died in a drunk driving accident or whether he died in a more nefarious way or whatever, at the end of the day, it's never going to make sense because the loss of someone that young is never going to make sense. It's just so awful. So they let me do it. And that's kind of how we ended up with the story, you know, in these kind of
00:28:09
Speaker
lots of tiny sections, which I actually, now that you're, you know, to bring it full circle to web reading, think that that's how people read, but you kind of trick them into reading, you know, 5,000 words or whatever that is. But I love history and I love the idea of being able to take something from the past and kind of exhume it in a way that is
00:28:28
Speaker
you know, and particularly his sister and a lot of people who knew him personally, I was so taken with how they still were carrying this. I mean, he was somebody who they were very close to. And yeah, so I did have kind of a home court advantage in that I understood Eugene and what a weird place it is and what its relationship with running is and Nike and how it's changed the state of Oregon. So
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, that was like a, it's one of my favorite things I got to work on last year because it just felt like so hearty and so, you know, kind of satiated a lot of my curiosity about pre, someone who I thought of for years, but didn't really, you know, it's so different when you start talking to people who knew the guy, you know?
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like that story, with a couple of the things you've done, fit into this sort of, this, what I'll call like a genre of the ubiquitous token. So like, let's just like, pre is this notion, almost like generic, which will tie into the monopolist for sure.
00:29:30
Speaker
Like you wrote the story for SB Nation in November about the Jumbotron everyone just knows the Jumbotron and then the monopolist everyone just thinks they know monopoly and then then you go and like tell this whole like intricate woven narrative about these things that have just become sort of these generic icons and I was wondering like what what about that or what is the draw for you when you see these things to
Uncovering History and Writing
00:29:58
Speaker
to unearth really just this trove of information that everyone has just taken for granted. I've never had anybody put it that way that was really clarifying, because usually people are like, what the hell are you writing about? I'm like, I don't know, things I find interesting. Sometimes it's sports business, but I think that that's a, yeah, thanks for clarifying my career. But the idea of backstory, and I think that, and I'm actually working on a project now with a friend of mine where
00:30:27
Speaker
We have all these things around us and I read about this a little bit at the end of Monopolous like that just are around us and we just accept that they're there. We don't think about backstory We don't think about where they come from and that you know it to go back to what we're talking about earlier that it is usually a human effort and I mean every journalist has his or her graveyard of stories and trust me I have mine too like there are things I've wondered about their origins and they're like, oh
00:30:52
Speaker
It's just this. It's really not that interesting. It's not worth however many words. And the jumbotron story, to be honest, I just always was curious about, and I mean, I kind of looked at it from the back, meaning that how weird that we go to live events now and still watch screens. So I was like, how did we get here?
00:31:13
Speaker
there was going to be either kind of an abstract media angle to it in terms of the evolution of our consumption. I didn't know how much I would actually be able to get. Like finding the guy at Sony was such a blessing because I was like, oh God, you know, he's like a real human being who was really there and could really piece this together and he was so great. And so sometimes you can find those links, those characters that kind of weave it all together and sometimes
00:31:36
Speaker
And this is what happened with monopolies, like Lizzie McGee wasn't alive and she wasn't able to tell her story. And I think that the public service side of my brain, you know, if you're especially like I remember writing about like banking and money, you're always kind of looking up at people who aren't necessarily represented by publicists and aren't necessarily and history has a lot of those. So I think that it's the curiosity and the treasure hunt aspect of it that really gets me
00:32:00
Speaker
to geek out and and the other thing that is so funny about history is I think that a lot of journalists you get trained to doing kind of beat reporting where you pick up the phone and you call somebody and yeah that's a that's a great way to report but like I love libraries I love history stuff and I can't tell you how often I'll really get into the weeds on the backstory of something and it will make it'll end up as a sentence in a story if that but I just feel like I can't
00:32:26
Speaker
Write about today unless I really go into the rabbit hole of what came before and some people aren't that way but I am and some that's context and knowing kind of what questions to ask people and things so Yeah, it's it's it's funny. But honestly, it's more just me becoming mildly obsessive about weird stuff
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't read Dead Wake yet, but Eric Larson, who wrote about the Lusitania, there's another thing we just accept as this American ocean liner that went down during World War I.
00:33:06
Speaker
And then he has, he wrote whatever, a 400, 500 page book about some narrative that was somehow intertwined with it that you had no idea existed. And I wonder along those lines, because you have done similar work, especially with the monopolist, what some of your models were for that and some of the things that helped build your foundation and your confidence that you could tackle a similar genre.
00:33:36
Speaker
I'm a huge Eric Larson fan. And I think that you nailed it. And I think that he's so good at recreating suspense. And I think with historical work, it's really easy because we have, inherently, the benefit of hindsight. And he's so good at showing you how things unfold in real time to these people. That's why I think Devil in the White City is so riveting is that you could just start with the last page of that book. And that's how most people think of it, like World's Fair.
00:34:15
Speaker
long form reads his stuff with the same kind of sense of it's a true story and he really holds you for a long time and he really weaves it. The New Yorker through the years, so I have a lot of those collections of profiles and what's great about those is that I love the New Yorker's style of writing but I also love how many reporters have kind of come and gone through there and kind of put their own twist on it.
00:34:27
Speaker
He really does a good job of appealing that. He's definitely on that list. The Garden of Beasts is also just one of my favorites.
00:34:41
Speaker
So I read a lot of that. Hellhone on His Trail by Hampton Sides, which is a book about the hunt for MLK's assassin, I think is another great example of something that takes something, I think that a lot of what we're dancing around too is this idea of surprise, which is huge in storytelling. And I think that that book takes something that you think you knew and it starts the movie where a lot of people end.
00:35:04
Speaker
and I think Larson's good at this too, is picking a window that you know is inherently important in terms of history and the narrative and the record, but really walking you through it and showing you the surprising element of it. I love Robert Caro. I think The Power Broker is just a majestic book and it's so
00:35:25
Speaker
It's so, so good. I mean, I know that sounds stupid. He's so rigorous in his research, but he's also so disciplined, which I know sounds crazy because it's such a long book, but he's so disciplined about the narrative arc and keeping it on the rails. With his LBJ work, it's that same idea of you could write everything you know about LBJ or you could write about LBJ in power.
00:35:47
Speaker
and really zoom in on that. And I think that he's so effective. And then Doris Kern's good one is another one I read a lot. So Team of Rivals, No Ordinary Time. I think she's so good. I mean, I read those like they're like trashy beach novels. They're so good. But she's also really good at taking something like Lincoln, which Lord knows there's plenty of people writing about and reframing it in a way and putting her own kind of spin on it.
00:36:14
Speaker
So those are kind of my, with Monopoly in particular, kind of the spirit animals I called on a lot. But yeah, I think there's more and more people kind of fusing these novelistic techniques into history and that's a win for everybody because they're so great to read and it makes history more engaging for folks.
00:36:34
Speaker
So at what point did you approach the monopolist as something that you found was going to lend itself to a book length narrative? How did you come to that story? So I never was one of those writers who wanted to do books. I was really happy at newspaper. Yeah, absolutely. I love newsrooms. I really thrived off of the work of daily beat reporting. I was not someone who had that on her bucket list at all. So in 2009, I was working at the Wall Street Journal.
00:37:04
Speaker
The big story at the time, obviously, was the economy, and it was really depressing, but also really fascinating. I was going to mention in passing, because I know I mentioned Oregon in cold and rain and loving games, that monopolies invented during the Great Depression. Like anybody, that was kind of the story I had been told.
00:37:22
Speaker
I was going to throw it in a story. In the journal, God bless them, every sentence in that paper has to be bulletproof. You know an editor is going to ask you. It has to be really, really ... I mean, accuracy is just such a big part of the job. It is the job. I was looking around. I was looking around. It just wasn't making any sense. It wasn't adding up. I know this may be hard to believe, but the internet had contradictory information. It was missing some.
00:37:46
Speaker
And so I reached out on a whim to Ralph Onsbach because I had heard he had been involved in litigation with Parker Brothers. And I felt like, well, you know, and this is like a common reporting trick. Usually lawyers involved in suing or being sued by something, they'll know stuff because if you're going to be sued or sue someone, you're going to be doing a lot of research.
00:38:06
Speaker
So I kind of reached out to him on a whim, and I was like, you know, hey, I know this sounds crazy, but I'm a reporter at the journal, and I'm just trying to find out the truth about Monopoly. And he really quickly got back to me and was like, oh, I know all about it. Like, it was in 1904. He started telling me all this stuff, and you still are super cynical, because you do have people calling you all the time who claim to be deep throat. And you're like, you know, I really don't know. And often they're not. But you take all that seriously, because everybody, you know,
00:38:34
Speaker
You just never know. Once he started talking to me and piecing this together, and I kept researching it, I remember going to the public library here in New York on the weekend trying to figure it out. If anything, he was understating how crazy it all was. I remember- It tore apart his life. Talk about a full life investment.
00:38:58
Speaker
really tore him apart. But yeah, definitely keep going. I'm surprised he had that kind of energy to talk about it after what it did to him.
00:39:07
Speaker
Oh my gosh, and he was so helpful. He was like, oh, here are the books you need. Here are the documents you need. I did the story for the journal that ran on the front page, but it was short. It was maybe a thousand words or something. It was the first time. Usually when you close a story, you're sick of it. You never want to think of it. You're like, oh God, I'm so glad it's over.
00:39:29
Speaker
much work into it. And this is the first time where I closed the story and I left and I was like, there's more to this. I have more questions. I don't know anything about this woman. I don't know anything about like the early players of the game. And so I went to bed and I thought, well, we'll just see how the story does. You know, maybe it's just me. And the next morning, like the story had just blown up. Like it got all this attention. I had, you know, my inbox was exploding. And so from there I kind of started putting together
00:39:54
Speaker
the book proposal. Even then, it was a longer magazine piece. I don't even know, but I just know there's more to this. I think it was a year before I had the book proposal ready to go. Honestly, and this is how book number two came about, when the reporting just becomes really unwieldy and it just kind of outgrows the space of
00:40:16
Speaker
a magazine piece, which, you know, like I said, has only really happened to me twice now. That's kind of like the bat signal. And that's why I get a little nervous and queasy when people come up to me and they're like, I'm going to write a book. And I'm like, well,
00:40:27
Speaker
like your story needs to fit that format. You shouldn't just do a book because you want somebody to sit under your shelf. It has to need to be a book. Cheryl Strayed has this really great quote, and I'm paraphrasing about this idea that your first book has a birth date, you just don't know what it is yet. I think there's so much truth to that.
00:40:46
Speaker
You can't force doing a book for the sake of doing a book. It's not this thing where you're sitting at your desk that's covered in rose petals and it just effortlessly comes out. It's more like warfare. I think it's incumbent upon the writer to write the shortest possible work possible. Exactly. That could be a book.
00:41:10
Speaker
Oh, monopolist probably ended up being, I don't know, 80, 90,000 words. I don't know, 100,000 maybe in that ballpark. But that's how long the story needed to be in that format. Initially, it was 1,000 words.
00:41:26
Speaker
Like you were getting like business validation a lot of ways. All those emails were, as you were saying earlier, like potential customers. You're like, wow, there's a market here that people want to really read about this. And you found that there was just so much volume to fill that, yeah, but that it merited that kind of
00:41:45
Speaker
Volume so to speak so like you i think you want you went about it the right way and you're telling people the right thing i think people on. They put books on on this pedestal but really it's you know i take it a step at a time like i think hemingway never wrote a novel without at least making sure it was good as a short story and then he took it longer.
00:42:06
Speaker
That's a really important point because the other thing, it took five years to do the book and in that time, you naturally have people come to you who are like, I'm working on a book too. You always want to be really positive. I feel like all authors, we kind of have a duty to support each other because we're all kind of in this trench together.
00:42:24
Speaker
But then in the back of your head, you're like, let's see it. And so many people will be, quote unquote, working on a book. And it's about putting in the time, right? And putting in the time to write it and report it and loving that process. And what's so fun about doing a second book is I feel like my first book, I was a nervous wreck for most of it. I was really anxious about doing it. I didn't know how the book industry worked.
00:42:48
Speaker
I was so nervous and this project is so different, but it's so much more going into a process and being like, I want to have fun with this.
00:43:00
Speaker
you know, to just take my stress and set it aside for a bit and really focus on the work rather than my anxiety about the work has been so great. And so I think everybody benefits from that and just like less insanity in the whole thing. So yeah, and it's so funny because the book thing, like it really does get romanticized.
The Evolving World of Writing
00:43:22
Speaker
And I think there is this idea that now, you know, when you were talking about
00:43:27
Speaker
kind of digital journalism I think one of the great ironies of the internet era for lack of a better term is that there's so much writing out there and I you know from a democracy perspective like I think it's fabulous that anybody can write but the
00:43:42
Speaker
funny thing that's happening now is that I think people now value good writing more because there's so much bad writing out there. And somebody asked me recently, you know, are you threatened by self-publishing? And I'm like, no, absolutely not. If there's like 10,000 self-published books and one of them becomes the next JK Rowling, that's awesome because gatekeepers have done a pretty good job of shoving out a lot of voices, you know, be they women or minorities, whatever.
00:44:07
Speaker
So I'm anti-gatekeepers in the truest sense, but I also think if you're somebody who's putting in that time on the front end and you're really thinking about what you're putting out there, that readers really value that now and that there's a really, that now more than ever, some of the best stuff can kind of rise to the top. And it can come from places that are maybe more unconventional and different than they would have been 50, 100 years ago.
00:44:31
Speaker
The water is getting deeper, but talent still has to float to the top. It just might take longer for that talent to float because there's so much murkiness to rise above, right? Exactly, exactly. And I think that that's always been the case, but I think if you make the pool larger, right?
00:44:51
Speaker
Yeah, I just, I have a hard time, like I just could never philosophically believe that more people writing and more people reading could ever be a bad thing. And if you think about, like I'm working on a story now that I went to India to report it and the idea that like a magazine piece can be read by everybody in India I talk to instantly. It's like so exciting to me that they're going to be, you know, and 10 years ago that just wouldn't have been the case. So I don't know if we can have it both ways. Like I don't know if I can sit here and whine about
00:45:20
Speaker
to where people reading the times in print, but also not be totally invigorated by being able to send links like that. And I just think that nostalgia, one of the things that historical research has taught me is that it's really easy to get nostalgic, but when you actually start looking at stuff, you're like, God, the past sucked. Especially the Lizzie McGee stuff, I went back and rewrote that chapter because I felt like I had no context for what it meant to be a woman inventor in 1904.
00:45:44
Speaker
And you just start reading about stuff. And this has come up a lot in interviews. Things were awful. People died really young. And people had diseases. And women couldn't vote. And it's just this idea that things were better then. Maybe some things were. But by and large, I'm really glad to be alive and working now. I have all these tools as a researcher I wouldn't have had. I mean, we just kind of take it for granted. I think that that mindset about
00:46:13
Speaker
journalism in particular is just so toxic and so not productive and nuts. It just doesn't get anybody anywhere and it's kind of illogical when you think about it.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I wonder when you're reporting on a longer story or any story, I wonder if there's a part of you that deals with nerves or gets nervous.
Dealing with Self-Doubt
00:46:34
Speaker
Is that true for you or do you just go into a story and you're just, you're a number one ace on the mound, you're not nervous at all, everything's in your wheelhouse.
00:46:46
Speaker
It depends. I have a lot of friends, I don't think I'm unique in this regard, where you talk about reporter mode, where you get into reporter mode. One of the things I like about breaking news in particular is you don't have time for existential problems. You have a deadline and you need to get it done. I think there are certain people, the extreme of this I would argue are emergency room doctors, where you just don't have time to get anxious.
00:47:10
Speaker
And I feel that way like today's a good example. Like the rest of the day I have five deadlines I need to juggle and five meetings and like I don't have time to brood over stuff or get nervous. And I think that that's
00:47:22
Speaker
Something that, especially writing about power and money, you have to psych yourself up before you go in. I'm a big believer in fake it until you make it too. So if you're intimidated by something or a story, look, we all can have some degree of imposter syndrome too on the other side of things, but you realize that sometimes in meetings, the other person on the other side of the table is doing the exact same thing.
00:47:46
Speaker
It's kind of like hunting, right? Like, is the bear more scared of you or are you more scared of the bear? And so I think that that's... Depends on your weapon, I guess. That's what taught me a lot about this, too, to be honest. Because, you know, athletes, going to an Olympics, you have to psych yourself up in a way that is like a little nuts. Like, it is a little crazy. Like, you have to believe in yourself in a way that's a little, like, illogical, but also will get you, like, to a finish line faster.
00:48:16
Speaker
And so I've always been really interested in the psychology of that. And I think that writers, you have to have that because part of the job is so crushing. And I remember before the book coming out, you have to tell yourself like, okay, even if nobody reads this, even if it doesn't hit the best seller list, because most books don't, even if it doesn't know, you know, most books kind of go into this ether, you have to tell yourself, I love the process. I love that I'm putting something out there that wasn't in the world before that needed to be.
00:48:44
Speaker
that it's telling a story that I believe in and you know like Melville died thinking he wrote an okay book about whales like yeah and even if you're not writing Moby Dick it doesn't have to be Moby Dick you have to like really like detach yourself in a way that is I don't even know if I'm doing a job describing it and I think that every piece however long or short it is the stakes for that get higher and you have to like
00:49:08
Speaker
be a little bit more workman-like about it. And I think that that's like a, I was talking to my brother about this, like kind of like factory-like work ethic, like that with books, like you are making widgets and you do get attached to the widget, but you also have to put it out there at some point.
00:49:24
Speaker
There's no shortage of examples of people who write stuff and it goes out and nobody notices it or cares or appreciates it or you know it sucks and you do deserve to get ripped apart for it or what have you. So and I have no idea. I mean I can't like I've written stuff that I felt really excited about and I really felt like the world was going to eat up and it falls flat and I've had stuff I've written that I thought was crap that goes out there and people think it's the best and I don't know what the dividing line between the two is you know.
00:49:54
Speaker
I wish I knew so it's yeah, so you just and that's what I mean, but it's like the second book like I feel like I'm so much more into the process of this one and Really loving the puzzle of figuring out how to do it and the challenge of having to do it rather than seeing it as a problem and that's Again to game design right the challenge mindset, right? That's if you're the hero of your own movie you you approach these things and
00:50:20
Speaker
like a superhero, you know, knocking down villains rather than in existential despair, you know, laying on your floor in the fetal position. So I think that that attitude can really, it's something I've had to learn over the years and still I'm working on, but, um, so no, I don't, you know, that's a very long way of saying, no, I don't really get psyched out the way I think I used to.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think you may make a good point. I think the only way to maintain a certain level of optimism, especially among journalists who are kind of really, if you hang around them too long, everyone starts lamenting the whole industry and it can just really bog you down.
00:50:57
Speaker
I think as long as you're process driven and not results driven, it definitely, if you love the work and do the work, that's where you're gonna find the greatest fulfillment. Everything else, like you said, is out of your control. And then that's how you sort of stay sane in this sort of climate we're in, I guess. It's how I deal with it for sure.
00:51:21
Speaker
Right, but also to go back to the whole factory idea, you do want to make good widgets, right? Of course. I'm a huge David Bowie fan and I was thinking about his death and a lot. If you listen to Black Star, that album, so I listened to it the day it came out before he died because I'm a Bowie fan. Then I re-listened to it, of course, after he died. Bowie's a separate podcast.
00:51:46
Speaker
I do think that if you look at his work, his career, I do think there is this message of like, you need to do it. I think if you watch that last video, I mean, it's incredible because it's this album. And honestly, I now have a hard time listening to it because it's so emotionally intense, this idea of a guy who knows he's dying.
00:52:09
Speaker
He's an intensely creative person and he's doing this like last act for his fans for the world and there is this idea in there I think of don't wait to do what you want to do like if you want to make an album if you want to write a book if you want to do like you can't keep waiting to do the kind of stuff that you want to do you have to just start doing it and and have like conviction in doing it and
00:52:34
Speaker
And I think that that's something that music has taught me a lot of and that, you know, so yeah, it's so funny because I was just thinking about that the last few weeks, this idea of like the urgency of like a creative impulse. And I think journalists sometimes get, you know, sidelined and aren't as in tune with that as other, you know, artists traditionally have then.
00:52:55
Speaker
It's funny how David Bowie brought you to that spot. Time is limited. Just do it if you're going to do what you want to do. What brought me to that very recently, just that mindset, was these two black holes that collided 1.3 billion years ago.
00:53:16
Speaker
And then, you hear about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and like this whole gravitational wave that finally hit Earth traveling at the speed of light took 1.3 billion years to reach us. And the mirror of how impossibly insignificant that made me feel. And then at the same point, I was just like, why fear anything? We are all just like these tiny little molecules. Like, what is holding you back?
00:53:42
Speaker
The place is so big, it's just like, why not just live a life with no fear? Because it is just so vast and everything here is so small. Why not just put it all out there? You wanna write that book, write it. You wanna make that album, make it.
00:53:58
Speaker
Don't hold the you know these black holes collided a hundred 1.3 billion years ago. The place is just way too big We are this tiny like you know, why live in fear? Why not just do what you want to do? It's just that kind of snapped me awake. It kind of awakened me in a weird way I don't know if I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but it kind of does to me yeah, no, absolutely and I some of that's personal experience too because you I
00:54:24
Speaker
Whether a death is close to you or something far away, and it's such a cliche, but I think there is a lot of truth to that. If you're close to that, it does make you kind of think about your mortality. I recently got an argument with somebody about luck.
00:54:42
Speaker
And I realized recently, I don't know if I believe in luck. I don't. I believe, especially in news, something happening, it's that whole idea of being ready for it to happen or working hard for it. And I think that particularly women have this idea of like, I just got lucky in my career. It's like, no, you work your butt off. So being able to do the stuff you want to do, that's kind of a fight. And so I used to say, oh, I'm so lucky I get to do what I love. Then I'm like, no, I can't not do what I love.
00:55:11
Speaker
you know, listicles of whatever or like, or at least I couldn't do that full time. And that's not luck. That's like a choice. And, you know, and I think that our profession is very much filled with trade offs. Like you do forego more money to do a certain type of story and like you, but like there's a happiness price in there too. Yeah.
00:55:31
Speaker
And so yeah, I think that's something that, especially when people kind of ask about, you know, freelance versus staff versus whatever. And one of the things I find so liberating about it being a freelancer is you get to say yes or no to projects.
00:55:43
Speaker
and you get to have an idea and then find a home for it. And you're the one driving it the whole way. And you do have to have kind of this nutty faith in the idea or project to say like, no, it's gonna happen with or without you as an editor or with or without you as a publication or what have you. And the pre-story is a great example. Like I, you know, years ago, didn't know when or how to do it. And then it just ended up perfectly finding a home at Grantland, but I had no idea like four or five years ago.
00:56:09
Speaker
that I was even like, oh, you're gonna do a Spoon River thing for an ESPN affiliate. I just was like, what? You don't have to know the ending, I guess. And I feel like journalism, we're good at that in our work sometimes, but we're not good at that when it comes to our own careers or understanding or how we're gonna put it all together. So how do you deal with self-doubt when you're in the throes of a project?
00:56:37
Speaker
Oh, what a great question. Self-doubt, the frozen creative project. You know, it sounds lame. I guess I pushed through it. And I think that that's why running, right? I mean, everybody's different. And for me, when I'm having a bout of self-doubt, it's kind of like a step away for a minute and go do something that pulls your head out. And running does that. I think it kind of recreates
00:57:06
Speaker
particularly being in the woods or nature or things that I was used to as a kid that I find quite peaceful. And I think that it takes a long time. And I don't think this is unique to writing. I think, because self-doubt is also a form of what, you know, like anxiety in some cases even anger. So I think that knowing you're getting to this fundamental core of how do you deal with that, you know, in anything.
00:57:27
Speaker
And so for me, like I go for a run or I will pick up a book off my shelf that, you know, from an author that really, you know, some of the names we were talking about earlier that kind of pulls me away and re-inspires me or re, you know, unites something. I actually just a few weeks ago painted something and drew something and I was like, you know, that's,
00:57:47
Speaker
What I love about drawing, and I'm somebody who's a terrible artist, but it does make you think about, you're forced to confront something like, oh, the shape of this, or how it looks. So I think pulling yourself out a little bit, playing with Legos with a kid, those kind of things can actually be really clarifying, because you kind of step back to what you were working on, a different person, and that isn't doubting yourself. So yeah, I think it is kind of your body or your brain's way of saying, you need to take a rest for a second. Yeah.
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's for the doodling there. I saw Austin Kleon, who is the... Oh yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, yeah, he's great. I've read all his stuff and I saw him in Brooklyn when he was promoting his Steel Like an Artist journal.
00:58:31
Speaker
and he did this talk about notebooks from famous people and I'm blanking on the artist but I believe she was a writer but she always kept a blank legal pad next to her and whenever she would get stuck with her writing she would just start doodling
00:58:47
Speaker
and on the blank, on the legal pad to her right, and it was just a way to sort of, like you lacing up your shoes and going out for a run, that was her way of detaching but still staying engaged, and it's just one of those neat little tricks that we as artists can sort of take ourselves out of something in order to better plug back into it.
00:59:12
Speaker
Right, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And like it goes back to what you're saying, one thing's I like about journalism, and I'm one of those writers that has to have deadlines, like, is you don't have time for self-doubt if you need to get something to somebody by four, you know, like you have to like, and I also, I'm a morning person, I'm not a procrastinator, I get anxious when I procrastinate. And so that's something that,
00:59:36
Speaker
i take comfort and actually spending time in something so if i think writing sucks like i like being able to work on it and then say i'm asleep on it and then come back to it and procrastinating you don't get to do that because you just don't have that kind of time so yeah i kind of tend to dig in my heels in a little bit when i get nervous do you meditate at all
00:59:58
Speaker
Yeah, so it's so funny. I do a lot of yoga, which obviously incorporates that. And again, I'm not a natural athlete. One of the things I like about yoga is you don't have to be, and it does force you to slow the hell down. So I have found that super, super helpful. Also, it helps prevent injuries in running. So outside. But I find it hugely, hugely helpful. Absolutely. Because you don't realize how full of crap your brain is until you kind of try to empty it out.
01:00:25
Speaker
So you have to defrag the computer so it can run officially. I run efficiently, I'm sorry. And any sports physio would tell you you have to rest in injury. And we don't do that with our heads. We don't do that at all with, and I think that's part of, I think running is extremely meditative, for me at least, because it does that too. And there is a repetition to it, and yeah, for sure. So what does the first 60 to 90 minutes of your day look like?
Daily Routines and Inspirations
01:00:55
Speaker
Um, 60 minutes. Okay. Morning rituals. I'm like fascinated with, um, so coffee happens instantly. Like it just has to happen. It's like not negotiable. If I travel, I bring coffee with me. Like it's, it's a thing. How do you prepare?
01:01:12
Speaker
When I'm at home, dripper French press with milk, no sugar. When I'm on the road, obviously, you have to compromise a little bit. So if there's no milk, that's fine. I survive. And I try to, in the first 30 minutes of the day, not answer any emails. And I try to write 500 words of anything.
01:01:32
Speaker
Anything that could be what I did the day before it could be an idea had it could be a nightmare It could be anything and then one of two things happens kind of depending on my schedule either kind of dive into work stuff Because those are my best hours Or I go for a run For me the day is one or lost by 10 a.m. So but having that first kind of 20 to 30 minutes in my own head and
01:01:56
Speaker
Really helps and really kind of helps me set up my like what and I'm a big list maker So every morning I make a list of like the stuff I have to do so that's everything from appointments to meetings to calls to like and I kind of frame it as like a good day would be getting X done like 80% of this, you know an awesome day would be getting a hundred percent of it but if I don't have that list and that first hour then I feel like I'm floundering all day and
01:02:22
Speaker
Yeah. Do you journal at all? Do like any kind of morning pages? Yes. I have kept a journal since I was like a teenager. I mean, well, no, younger kid. And I wrote something for the Guardian about it. And yeah, it's hugely helpful. I kind of see it almost like as a warm up. It's like kind of like the equivalent of like stretching before you go work out or something. Yeah. And it's nice when you're paid to write and it's what you love to do. It's nice to know that you still have part of your day. That's just what you, it's not for anybody.
01:02:51
Speaker
It's just not for anybody. It's for nobody but you to kind of like clear your throat and sort out your head. So yeah, I'm a big believer in journaling. Do you have a favorite documentary?
01:03:03
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I watch so many documentaries. I'm a huge doc fiend. My friend Maggie Messet, who was on the podcast before, she's a big documentary person also. And she's an author and does magazine pieces. Her big thing is like the writing is like putting documentaries on paper. Yeah, absolutely. So I wonder like what your favorite documentaries are since you're a big doc person.
01:03:29
Speaker
Oh, gosh. If you can name two or three. I thought the Jinx was fabulous, which I know is recent. Oh, man. God, this is such an overwhelming question. The ESPN 30 for 30 ones are great, because they're like magazine pieces. Right, absolutely. And I have to go in a couple of minutes. I'm so sorry, but I'm trying to think of an answer for this.
01:03:56
Speaker
Best documentaries. Oh, man, there's so many. Like I said, I love The Jinx. Secret Lives is a film by Aviva Slasson, which was on HBO. I know Aviva, she was a professor of my at NYU, and she's fabulous. But it's about, again, it's this idea of contemporary history. So it's about hidden children during the Holocaust, and she kind of finds, she was one herself, and she kind of finds them today.
01:04:19
Speaker
and figures out what they're up to and what they're doing, how that experience as a child shaped the rest of their life, which I thought was really fascinating. That's kind of, I don't know why that popped in my head.
01:04:35
Speaker
I'm a sucker for crime documentaries. Oh, I have a great answer to this, actually. The agony and ecstasy of Phil Spector is this fabulous documentary that not enough people saw. It was at the Film Forum here for a while. And it's about Phil Spector. And it's one of the last interviews I think he did before he went to prison. And it walks you through the trial and how complicated it is, but also him talking about his role in the music industry. So you're hearing these iconic songs.
01:05:02
Speaker
and him being kind of nutty and crazy and talking about it. But you're also getting walked through this crime story. I thought it was brilliant. It's one of my favorite movies the last 10 years, you know, documentary or not. So that's my choice. There we go.
01:05:18
Speaker
Two more quick things. Sure. Will you, or are you open to a part two interview? Because I do want to let you go so you don't miss your next appointment. Perhaps, but it would have to be in a month or two. Because I'm going to be jet setting again. But yes, sure. No, that's fine. Because I still have some other things I think would be cool to talk about. And that would fill up another half hour, 45 minutes or so of fun stuff. And also, where can people find you online?
01:05:46
Speaker
Mary Polan, P-I-L-O-N dot com. Mary Polan, I think I've been calling you piling or pilling. It makes no sense, so it's totally cool. Very nice. Well, Mary, thank you so much for carving out some time of your morning. Keep doing your good work, and the monopolist is excellent, and I can't wait to read what you've got coming down the pipeline next. Thanks again, and safe travels, and we'll talk soon.
01:06:12
Speaker
Fabulous. Thanks so much. You got it. Take care. Bye.