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Episode 78—Louisa Thomas on Problematic Writers, Mercenary Work, and Picking Up the Phone
132 Plays7 years ago
"For me, I'm thinking about the writing from the very first second I get an assignment," says Louisa Thomas, who made the 2017 volume for Best American Sports Writing. "I'm thinking about tone, and texture, and influences."
I’m here to showcase the world’s best artists and how they create work of nonfiction so you can use their tools of master to improve your own work. Louisa Thomas joins me this week. She’s @louisahthomas on Twitter. She recently made the big book for The Best American Sports Writing for her piece Serena Williams, Andy Murray, and a Political Wimbledon. In this episode we talk about: Her biography Louisa: The Extraordinary Life of Mrs. Adams. Working with Problematic Writers and How Not to be One Mercenary Writing And what she learned working with New Yorker editor David Remnick How she organizes her titanic feats of research and much more People are taking advantage of my free hour of editorial work and coaching, about a $50 value. Want in? All you have to do is leave an honest review on iTunes and have it postmarked by the end of December. Send me a screenshot of your review and you’ll be on your way. Reviews validate the podcast and increase its visibility so we can reach more CNFin’ people. I’m not even asking for a 5-star review, merely an honest one because that comes from a more authentic place. All right, enough of my stupid face, time to hear from Louisa Thomas, thanks for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to Louisa Thomas
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey CNFers, welcome to this week's program where I invited Louisa Thomas, author of two books of historical non-fiction and a writer for the New Yorker website and occasionally the magazine. I couldn't help but notice the immense praise heaped on her for her terrific biography of Louisa Adams. Get this, on the back she has five blurbs from Joseph J Ellis, Walter Isaacson, Stacey Schiff,
00:00:27
Speaker
John Meacham and Megan Marshall four out of the five prefaced their work by saying Pulitzer Prize winning author of fill in the blank four out of five eighty percent That was me. My mother would look at that and say you couldn't have gotten five out of five Pulitzer Prize winners
00:00:48
Speaker
I'd bring home report cards with all A's and one B and she'd say, you couldn't get all A's. One time I got all A's and she said, you couldn't get all A pluses. Feelings of inadequacy be damned. I'm here to showcase the world's best artist on the Creative Nonfiction Podcast.
00:01:06
Speaker
and how they go about creating works of non-fiction so you can use their tools of mastery to improve your own work. And like I said a moment ago, Louisa Thomas joins me this week. She's at Louisa H. Thomas on Twitter. She recently made the big book for the best American sports writing for her piece, Serena Williams, Andy Murray, and a political Wimbledon.
00:01:33
Speaker
In this episode, we talk about her biography, Louisa, The Extraordinary Life of
Louisa's Notable Works and Writing Process
00:01:38
Speaker
Mrs. Adams, working with problematic writers and how specifically not to be one, mercenary writing, and what she learned working under David Remnick at the New Yorker, and also how she organizes her titanic feats of research and much, much more.
00:01:59
Speaker
So people are taking advantage of my free hour of editorial work and coaching. It's about a $50 value. So if you want in, all you have to do is leave an honest review on iTunes and have it postmarked by the end of December, 2017. Send me a screenshot of your review and you'll be on your way. I'll reach out at that point. Reviews validate the podcast and increase its visibility so we can reach more CNF and people.
00:02:29
Speaker
I'm not even asking for five-star reviews, merely honest ones, because that comes from a more authentic place. All right, enough of my stupid face. Time to hear from Louisa Thomas. Thanks for listening.
Experience and Gratification in Sports Writing
00:02:42
Speaker
Congratulations on Best American Sports Writing Nod. That's always a big thrill, I imagine. Thank you. Yeah, I know.
00:02:52
Speaker
An honorable mention a few times before, so it was nice to get into the pages proper. Yeah, exactly. So tell me what that was like to be notable, so to be knocking on the door and then to finally sort of that, you know, everything kind of aligned and came together for you to like give you that and to get you into the anthology proper. Yeah.
00:03:19
Speaker
It was obviously a great honor and I was really happy about it. I can't say it was like a long-term goal I had. So it's not like something I was, you know, gunning for and focused on in any way. It's more like, you know, you try and do the best work you can and it's really nice when it's acknowledged.
00:03:42
Speaker
That's always a good point to underscore that it's like it shouldn't be the end goal to make it into these types of things, but it should always be kind of the goal. This is how I see it, to just at least be doing the type of work that typically gets anthologized, if that makes any sense. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I was not surprised by how to put this.
00:04:10
Speaker
I just the piece that I wrote that was selected was not a piece that I had, you know, it was a reactive piece. It wasn't a piece that I spent, you know, months working on, obviously, because it was about something that had just happened. So but in some ways, those are my favorite kinds of pieces to do these days, because they're written from a place of, you know, spontaneous, like thought and emotion. So, you know, it was nice in some ways,
00:04:40
Speaker
In some ways, you always want the things that you pour your heart and soul into for a long time to be the things that sort of stand out, but it's also nice that when there's something that you really enjoy doing, that's what catches people's attention. That's validating in a different kind of way.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah, and it's funny for a piece of that nature. It's pretty short, relatively speaking, the column you did for Wimbledon. And it was, I don't know, maybe a thousand words. I'm just looking at the page. Yeah, I think it's about 1,200 words or something like that, yeah.
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah and talk about something that was just like you said reactive and not it's not the type of thing that you do like a supreme deep dive into and and then also you happen to have a guest editor in Howard Bryant who's like a tennis nerd yeah and so like yeah stars aligned and it's like you had this great piece and the guest editor happened to be like it just tunes his antenna to tennis and then you know and it worked out beautifully that's
00:05:44
Speaker
I mean, it's the kind of piece that probably a non-tennis editor wouldn't have noticed. I mean, The New Yorker does a great job of featuring stuff, so they might have come on to it just through the site, but it's not like one of those pieces that there's buildup for because it's just, you know, it is what it is.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
Transition from Law to Writing
00:06:05
Speaker
And so when you were starting out as a reporter or writer, what did those early days look like as you were looking to possibly take this type of work on as a vocation? Well, when I started, I actually started as a fact checker for the New Yorker magazine.
00:06:26
Speaker
And I thought I was probably going to do that for a couple of years and go to law school. And then I became the assistant to the editor there, David Remnick. And I decided that I wanted to try writing, try my handwriting, which back in those days, the New Yorker didn't really have a robust website. They didn't have their own content, original content. So really, the only way to do that was actually to leave the magazine, which I did. And where are we timewise in that?
00:07:00
Speaker
So, when I wrote a book about four brothers in World War I and started writing a lot of book reviews, that was actually really my start. It was not like it's a reporter. I mean, I did a little bit of reporting pieces, but I still don't really think of myself as a reporter, to be honest. I still think of myself more as like a writer. And I know that's sort of an arbitrary distinction sometimes, but people obviously put different emphasis both in the
00:07:27
Speaker
time and approach to writing. And some people are very much about the kind of fact gathering process and the interviews and things like that. And the writing is sort of like the the last stage in some ways. For me, like I'm thinking about the writing from the very first second I get an assignment, you know, I'm thinking about stone and texture and
00:07:54
Speaker
you know, influences and things like that. Like, you know, some ways that kind of precedes the writing, actually, in some ways precedes everything else. I mean, and I'm thinking about writing long before I'm actually doing any writing.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's it sounds like you have more of an an artist's sensibility going into the information gathering, much like a novelist, only, you know, you're looking to make it make sure everything is verifiably true. But yeah, it's like you've got that. You don't necessarily have like the reporter like hat with the scoop. You know, you're not like a breaking news person, you know. Right, exactly. Or investigative reporter or something like that.
00:08:56
Speaker
the writing versus the reporting. So there's always improvement on both scales, but especially the reporting. And I wonder, since you lean towards have more the writer's eye before the reporter's eye, what kind of growing pains did you experience as you tried to hone your skills as an information gatherer? I mean, I'm still experiencing growing pains. I probably always will be in the grave and still experience growing pains like this.
00:09:05
Speaker
Which is for better and worse.
00:09:25
Speaker
I mean, a lot of reporters, they just can't wait to pick up the phone. I will do everything to avoid picking up the phone. That's the biggest one. I think I'm... I try to be a good listener, so I'd say it's like a strength, but I'm also sort of... How do I put this?
00:09:55
Speaker
Sometimes people will say something to you and certain reporters will sort of be like, ah, that's gold. They've exposed themselves in some way. And I'll hear that and be like, I'm not going to use that because they don't realize what they're saying. It's easy to take out of context. So I think that's a big difference, actually. And it's probably held me back in
Ethical Reporting and Writing Techniques
00:10:19
Speaker
terms of
00:10:20
Speaker
writing clickable things, you know, things that people get fuzzy about sometimes, because I've chosen not to, you know, use a money quote or something. But at the same time, it feels like it's the only way I feel like I can do it with some kind of, like, I'm not gonna say integrity in terms of like, character wise integrity, but I mean, like, taking the piece as a whole, you know, and wanting it not to get like, yanked off its rails by
00:10:50
Speaker
something more exciting or easy to grasp onto at the cost of everything else.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yeah, I understand where you're coming from there, because especially if you spend a lot of time with somebody and other people, like their their guard definitely drops. And so it's almost like, yeah, you almost want to you do a little of that policing of what they say for them. Be like, you probably didn't really mean to say that because. Right. Well, exactly. And as you know, it's always a question. I mean, I think most reporters would say that's totally fair game. And I think ethically, technically it is.
00:11:30
Speaker
But at the same time, if you're trying to get at what they really are trying to say, then the sort of mumbling way in which they do it the first time is maybe not, it's not only not fair to them, but in some ways it's not fair to the story.
00:11:49
Speaker
probably the minority on that front. Yeah, I think it depends. It depends on what type of stories you're going after and where your taste lies. If you're covering high politics and people of power, that's a very good point. Yeah, that changes the rules a bit. If you're covering somebody who's not
00:12:14
Speaker
the most kind of articulate you know and has been you're doing it and it's like it's supposed to be a nice story it's a different thing yeah and you said something earlier that i think was really interesting and important than that like when it when it comes to wanting to pick up the phone it's like there's a resistance to do that uh... that kind of that reporterly thing or you were like you said like some people you know they just they're itching to get on the phone and follow leads and chase leads and all that uh... how have you
00:12:44
Speaker
cultivated your own sense of getting a greater sense of comfort with doing that. What are those hurdles and how do you get yourself primed to make those calls and to be a little, not aggressive, but to push yourself to be into that uncomfortable position of having to make those calls? If I'm being honest, I don't. Not that I don't make them, I'm saying I don't get more comfortable.
00:13:13
Speaker
You know, it's just something you have to do. This is part of the job. You know, it's eating your broccoli. You know, I mean, in some cases, like, I guess the best way to become more comfortable, and this does happen, I'm really happy to say with, happens often enough that I keep doing it. But you know, you, you develop a relationship with the person and you become comfortable with that specific person less, more with
00:13:43
Speaker
It's more of like you are comfortable in the context of speaking with them and you might even enjoy that and learn a lot from them rather than approaching it as something that you kind of have to do and dread doing. But I sort of have to relearn that every single story. Do you experience those sort of heart flutters and that anxiety when you have to make those calls? Oh, totally. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:14:13
Speaker
I also do a lot of historical writing. I mean, I write, I've written two books that are, you know, not in the base of the 21st century. So, and I love follow chasing leads and, you know, digging up clues and things like that in that context. I love chasing down that kind of information. That is like the, the, the best part.
00:14:39
Speaker
Because it's not invasive or probing into gnarly little corners. With the reporting and the research you did for Louisa, which I'm almost through, which is just an awesome, awesome book. And I want to talk about that too. Yeah, you're not dealing with super sensitive, timely sensitive and stuff. You're dealing with a lot of dead people.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And in archives. And then if you're talking to historians, it's like, well, you're kind of like picking their brain about their life's passion, which is kind of fun and not. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And also when you come across something on the page, it's easier to kind of see in a larger constellation of comments and everything. Like if you have thousands of letters, you know,
00:15:36
Speaker
That's a lot more than a couple of hour-long conversations or two-hour-long conversation, you know? Yeah. Even if you're spending a lot of time with a person, like, you can just get to know someone in a way through the archives that you can. And there's an irony to that because, of course, there's so many things you can't know, you know, if you can't meet them. And not only if you can't meet them, but if you can't live in their time. I mean, there's a whole different kind of worldview that you can know about, but you can't really break into.
00:16:07
Speaker
in any super meaningful sense. And yet, you can get their voice in a really compelling way.
00:16:17
Speaker
And so you started with doing a lot of book reviews, and the books you've written are very historical in context. So there's those ways where you didn't necessarily have to talk to many living people in a sense. Exactly, yeah. That stuff that makes you uncomfortable.
00:16:39
Speaker
And so I wonder what was the the need or the gravitation towards doing some journalism that does put you face to face with people where you do have to make that call. Like, you know, you know, why did you why have you made that pivot? I would say I've fully made the pivot in the sense that I still I still do a lot of the other kind of work.
00:17:06
Speaker
And even like, and like I said, I even kind of approached even those stories and projects with more kind of a writerly bent, um, than a repartorial one. But, um, I did it because for all sorts of reasons, one is, you know, I was asked to do them and I thought it would be an interesting and good challenge.
Learning from David Remnick
00:17:28
Speaker
Um, and so I said, yes, that's a lot where a lot of kind of work lies these days, frankly.
00:17:34
Speaker
I mean, I did it for practical reasons too because, you know, a girl's got to make a living.
00:17:50
Speaker
So being in such close orbit to David Remnick early on in your development there, what sort of influence and what did you learn from his work and maybe just being around him and watching him work? What were you able to maybe cherry pick and learn from him and your experience? Well, he knows I've learned a ton. I mean, he's a foam picker-upper. So in that sense,
00:18:19
Speaker
You know, I learned that this is how it's done. But I mean, I actually learned a lot about editing, to be honest, in some ways. And obviously that influences my writing, usually. But it definitely informed. I mean, I've also worked as an editor. And I would say that that experience was invaluable.
00:18:48
Speaker
you know, when I was working as an editor and also editing my own work. In some ways I'm, I keep calling myself a writer, but in some ways I'm actually just an editor. I just happen to edit my own work. Um, so that was, I guess, that was the biggest thing I learned. I mean, the other thing I guess is, I mean, I learned a lot of things about being a writer that you don't see on the outside.
00:19:14
Speaker
I learned the difference between being a writer who's easy to deal with and being a writer who's difficult, which I think a lot of people don't appreciate. That was a lesson I learned early on, which has served me very well, I think. So what does a difficult writer look like? A difficult writer is someone who is very defensive and
00:19:44
Speaker
even contemptuous. I know that sounds kind of strong, but some writers are. They're sort of like, how dare you mock up my writing and maybe you're not smart enough. I mean, none of it is like meant like that, but the defenses are so high when you're a writer because you're so vulnerable, you know? Right. And there's just people who are very kind of feel like what they did was right. And you're in the wrong for even suggesting that there might be a problem. What I learned is that an editor is
00:20:13
Speaker
often not right actually, but they're not right in their solutions. They're usually right in locating the problems. So basically as a writer, the best thing to do is not to say like, oh, no, no, you don't get it. This is perfect or whatever. The best thing to do is to sort of take an edit and say, OK.
00:20:41
Speaker
I don't like what the editor has done in this place. I don't like their suggestion. But I recognize that there's a problem here that we need to address.
Collaboration with Editors
00:20:54
Speaker
And that has been really valuable. Because the editor in some ways is a proxy for the reader. It's your first reader. And if they have a problem, your reader is probably also going to have a problem.
00:21:07
Speaker
They're very good, like say the suggestion, like the very granular suggestion might not be as agreeable, but the mere fact that something has to be suggested suggests a wrinkle is there that needs to be ironed out. Yeah, I mean, and there are some writers who are kind of invasive for the point of being invasive and, you know, you have to sort of learn what you're dealing with, but the point is you have to take everything in good faith and
00:21:36
Speaker
the whole process is just infinitely easier if you have open lines of communication with your editor and you're not a kind of knee-jerk reaction, isn't to say like, no, I want it the way it is and realize that it's a process. I mean, I think that the New Yorker is famously like,
00:22:01
Speaker
How do I put this? Invasive. When you write a New Yorker story for the magazine, you have five, six, I don't know how many people are reading it, and they're all weighing in, and they all have thoughts. You have to learn how to sort of pick and choose what to listen to, but at the same time, there's no way to get through that process just by saying,
00:22:30
Speaker
don't touch my copy. And if you do that, you will not be writing there again. I think there's a tendency, too, when you're getting your stuff marked up, that it's hard to divorce your own self-worth from the work. Of course. Exactly. That's sort of what I was saying. Of course it's very fraught because every writer feels incredibly vulnerable.
00:22:57
Speaker
I mean, they wouldn't admit to that, but that's what's going on. You know, you feel like your heart is on the page and every, you know, at its mark is like a dart in it. Yeah, because on the page, it can sound cold. And when you see it all marked up and it's just like,
00:23:21
Speaker
It just sounds very, sometimes robotic and mean sometimes. But the fact is, say for yourself if you're writing a piece for The New Yorker and the mere fact that you're being edited means
00:23:38
Speaker
You have to accept that you're good. And now all these edits, they're not an indictment on you. It's making the work good. So like you're good. They're just trying to make it better. And if you can like make that switch in your head. And every place is different too, because the New Yorker has a certain kind of voice. I mean, this is historically more true than it is now, where it's sort of opening up a little bit. But the New Yorker is also interested in turning a story into a New Yorker story.
00:24:08
Speaker
you know, which is not the same thing as a story for, um, box, you know, for a story for even the story for, you know, mother Jones or a story for, I mean, there's a lot of overlap between publications, but part of what the process is, is, you know, recognizing that you're writing for a certain kind of publication with a certain kind of audience and, and the editors are sort of,
00:24:35
Speaker
giving it a kind of institutional polish or whatever. And some places don't do that, you know. There's some places that when you write, you are given much more autonomy. I mean, I wrote for and worked at Grantland for many years. Not many years, I should say, because it wasn't around many years, but for many years, it felt like many years. And there is a place where you are, it's very much more individualistic and
00:25:03
Speaker
there's a kind of cacophony or cornucopia of different kinds of voices and styles. And that kind of same sort of like consistency of voice and perspective and things like that is not only not kind of required, but not even discouraged. So I've seen it both ways and been part of both processes. But even then,
00:25:33
Speaker
You know, it's it makes such a difference to have writers who are really kind of see their others as collaborators and allies as opposed to like enemies. Yeah, of course. I think I think the right approach, no matter what, is always thank you. It's just, you know, if the editor is in both ways, I mean, it's very important for the editor to say, like,
00:25:59
Speaker
Thank you. And regard the writer as the collaborator and not as a antagonist. Yeah, it's important. It's easy to see or interpret the relationship as being on opposite ends of the table. But maybe if both come at an editor who has done some writing and a writer who's done some editing can then come at it and say like, no, we're on the same side of the table. And with that mutual understanding can probably come, the work is just only going to be that much better.
00:26:28
Speaker
I mean, and it's true. I mean, when you're in, when you're in a productive editor-writer relationship, it's, I mean, sometimes it can be fraught and frustrating and you, your writer or your editor will drive you crazy. But at the same time, there's like nothing like that feeling where you feel like you have a piece that could only come so far, you know, by yourself has been, has been carried forward. You know, and that's, I mean, that's a kind of wonderful,
00:26:58
Speaker
I think you feel like something that couldn't have existed without this process now exists. Yeah, it's a one plus one equals three type thing when it's really humming. Exactly. And I feel like I've, I mean, those are some of the most rewarding, both from the editing and the writing side, those are some of the most rewarding experiences I've had, you know, professionally.
00:27:18
Speaker
So how do you, as someone who sort of gravitates or maybe your initial experience was more editing, and when you start writing, how do you divorce the editor from the writer so you can actually free yourself to do the writing and then to put the editor hat on and not be like stymied or crippled by editor brain getting into the writing process?
Writing with an Editor's Perspective
00:27:44
Speaker
I actually, in some ways,
00:27:47
Speaker
take the opposite approach, which is the idea that because I'd never really take off my editor hat, I was no, I guess I would say I take it off, but I don't divorce it. Like I just, it goes on like a little bit of a vacation because the idea of when I'm writing is that like, whatever I'm putting onto the page is only rough copy. You know, there's no, like, there's no kind of attempt or false,
00:28:16
Speaker
belief that this is going to be perfect and this is what's going to run and there's some sort of obligation to get it right on the first try. And that's really liberating because I know that there's going to be this process of revision and revision and revision. And therefore as a writer, you know, that's totally freeing because you can try things and you can not get too kind of like hung up on yourself if you know that
00:28:39
Speaker
what you're doing now is malleable and gonna be changed anyway so we might as well just get it done. That takes a while to, for some people that takes a while to cultivate that there's a perfectionism that goes on in their head that things have to come out really good that first time and if you can embrace that shitty first draft, which sounds like you can, then it really...
00:29:06
Speaker
qualify this by saying, I have a lot of trouble getting started sometimes. Because I do believe in the power of leads, even if my lead is going to change, and it almost always does, I think that you can really set the course for a piece at the start.
00:29:27
Speaker
And also I'm a procrastinator. So, you know, I need the kind of heat of a deadline to sort of get me, get the, the fire under my bum, you know, get going. So it takes me a long, long, long, long, long time sometimes to get stuff down on the page. And once I do, I'm not the sort of person who's kind of obsessively can't finish a paragraph because
00:29:54
Speaker
I can just write at that point, but it is often hard for me to get that first paragraph on the page.
00:30:04
Speaker
There's a couple of good things to unpack there. With the lead, with respect to the lead, I know I've heard John McPhee write about that. He labors over the lead because he thinks it's like the flashlight that, like you were saying, kind of opens up the whole piece. It sets it up. I heard, I think Mary Carr, when she was writing the Liars Club,
00:30:26
Speaker
Worked for like nine months on the voice of that first chapter and then that unlocked the rest of the book. Yeah. So I mean, I do have faith when I'm doing the lead. It's not like, oh, I'm never going to be able to write this. I'm I think I'm never going to write the lead, but I have a lot of confidence that once I figure that out, you know, there is like a kind of flashlight or key in that, you know, in in there so that once that is done, the rest will flow more easily.
00:30:57
Speaker
How much, what does your process look like when you're trying to craft that lead? When you've got your notes and everything, are you charting mock outlines, index cards, cork boards, like how are you starting to manifest that lead for you? It depends on what kind of piece I'm doing. So if I'm doing like a, if I'm working on a New Yorker piece right now and I'm working on Evernote, you know, and I have lots of
00:31:28
Speaker
different files with different, you know, notes and kinds of notes and they're tagged and whatever can sort of keep myself a little bit organized, although it inevitably breaks down. When I wrote script, you know, when I wrote Louisa, I use Scrivener, another kind of writing software, which I had. And that was a much, much, much, much, much, much more ambitious undertaking. So I had
00:31:55
Speaker
Not only different like file cards, but it would often be too big for like, I needed lots of different scriveners. Um, like actual, you know, new, like, I don't even know what to call it. It's not a document, but, um, but I would say, but if I'm doing something like the piece that's in best American sports writing, that's like, like I said, it's much more reactive.
00:32:24
Speaker
So that, I'll spend two hours just kind of trying to come up with my read. And there's no real structure to that process. I'm just sort of thinking. My only structure in that process is I'll usually go for a run or a walk and get away from the computer and just kind of run through. I do a lot of writing in my head. So I'll just kind of try and write it in my head first. But I'm not outlining or anything. I'm literally writing sentences in my head.
00:32:55
Speaker
And then when I come back, I can usually get started. But, um, but then there's no, I mean, that piece, that kind of piece, there's no time to do any real like cork boarding or whatever. You know what I mean? If it's a, if it's a piece about a tennis match that happened that day, then time is of the essence, you know? And I'm, and it's funny cause like, I'm both slow and fast. Like I'm slow for internet writing.
00:33:24
Speaker
Like, you know, I if you if I'm at the US Open or Wimbledon or something and I'm in a room, you know, massive media center and a lot of those writers are getting their stuff up within an hour or two. You know, and I have no idea how they do that because I need, you know, I need six hours, eight hours, you know, seems impossible to do it in any less. But of course, you know, compared to someone
00:33:53
Speaker
who's used to the horizon of a magazine, that's no time at all. But for a piece like that, I'm trying to think of where I was when I wrote that. I was actually at a wedding. Yeah, so it was a late afternoon wedding, so obviously it didn't interfere. But what I'm saying is I was in a hotel room.
00:34:22
Speaker
just like trying to get it done because the day was full. And so you kind of have to just trust yourself in those moments. And you also said that you're a procrastinator. And I wonder how does the nature of your procrastination manifest itself? And then how do you put it to bed and try to get to work?
00:34:47
Speaker
How does it manifest itself? Like what do you use? Like you have, you know, cat videos or Ted talk. I play a lot of chess. Yeah. I used to read the entire internet. Um, I've cured myself of that. Um, for better or worse, I've sort of like, don't actually read a lot of internet stuff anymore. I read like the New York times and then if there's like a big, and I read the New Yorker and if there's a big story or something that people are talking about, I'll read that.
00:35:16
Speaker
But I'm not a kind of obsessive Twitter feed hunter in the way that I used to be. And I don't have sites that I go to regularly anymore. Um, I instead, I play a lot of chess. That's like the biggest one. The other one is, you know, I cook a lot. I go for runs. That's how babies. So I'm sure that will disrupt all my thing, although give me much more kind of concrete deadlines. So yeah. So, so that's kind of how it manifests and, and.
00:35:45
Speaker
Eventually, you just kind of have to do it, and so you do it. Of course. And how do you vet out your stories? And or what, you know, what, what draws you most and then allows you to like lean in with your full rigger? Mostly, I mean, I like writing my tennis best. And because I do a lot of it, I feel like at this point, I have a pretty good sense of what the big stories are and what's going on. So in some ways, it comes pretty naturally. I mean, in something that's reactive,
00:36:15
Speaker
You don't vet it out like, like, um, like in that Wimbledon piece, you know, somebody won, somebody lost in both sides, the men and women. And also, you know, there was some things I had in my mind. So the, that kind of like fed into the story. That's pretty straight forward. There's no like pre-reporting or anything you have to do except insofar as like you are following the tournament as a whole, you know, which I'm obviously doing.
00:36:43
Speaker
in tennis, it's like, it's a little bit more, I would say it's a little bit easier for me because, you know, I'm sort of alive to the, to the various going zons, going zon, I should say, in the sport, without having to try too hard. You know, for other stories, I either sometimes I'm approached about them. And so they've sort of been pre vetted, you know, an editor will have an idea.
00:37:10
Speaker
And then you start reading around and thinking, is this right for me? Is this a good story? And it's like, what else has been written? It's the first question, usually. And if there's been a lot written, how can I basically carve out my own space? And if there's not been a lot written, you think a combination of great and also, why hasn't there been a lot written? What am I missing? So you have to balance those concerns.
00:37:40
Speaker
You know, I mean, I did deal with this in the book level too. I mean, I spent like a two years at this point looking for my next book topic. And it's like every time you sometimes like, sometimes months going down certain road, you know, and reading a ton of things and getting really excited. And then you just kind of hit a wall and you realize you can't, there's a door in it. So you've just sort of turned back. Um,
00:38:08
Speaker
So, I mean, this happens in every kind of writing. It's really hard to walk away from projects sometimes, and you have to be willing to do that. Obviously, you can't always do that for different reasons, either like you have an assignment and you just need to do it. Another thing that like, I think a lot of writers are sort of precious about their writing. Yeah, they really consider it like a vocation, you know, and everything they write has to be like special. I sort of take a view that like,
00:38:37
Speaker
Some things you write have to be special, but also if it's your job, which it is for me, then sometimes you also just have to write things. You should do the best you can and turn it in and turn the page. Right.
00:38:52
Speaker
That's a good point. There are some things that you want to really lean into with your full artistic sensibility. And then there are some things that are like, you know what? I got to bang out this slideshow in two hours. And it is what it is. It's not what I'm necessarily proud of and not what I'd maybe put on my clips on my website. But it's something that gets me a little money.
00:39:18
Speaker
and that allows you to do the other things. Make money so you can make your art. Exactly. Yeah. What is some of that sort of nuts and bolts writing that, you know, for lack of a better term, like you're not, say, you're not super advertising it. You're not really, say, proud of it. Yeah, no, I definitely do that. Yeah. What does some of that work look like for you? Oh, you know, see, now you're trying to tell me to advertise it. I'm trying to keep it hidden.
00:39:47
Speaker
Personally, I did a lot of slideshows and stuff for Bleacher Report for a long time. They took a lot of time and it was definitely not something that I was sharing, but it was something, winners and losers from filling the blank NASCAR race. It's its own thing. I didn't have to commute anywhere. Right, exactly.
00:40:09
Speaker
I call it mercenary writing. Nice. That's what I do. I try and make sure that's not how I'm spending all my time, for sure. But I think that there aren't very many writers who can get away with doing no mercenary writing. Yeah. So yeah.
00:40:35
Speaker
I love that you're just, because a lot of people don't want to admit it. They almost want the stuff that gets anthologized. You want to believe that that's the only gig in town. And for a very small few, like your Don Minatas and Bright Thompson's and Michael Lewis and folks of that ilk who have a salaried gig at some
Financial Realities of Writing
00:40:57
Speaker
big magazines. If you're on top of any fair, good for you. Yeah, exactly. Every single piece they do can be artful. But yes, the mercenary stuff, I think it's really important that you have the courage to even talk about it because I think a lot of people just, there might be a little embarrassment involved, right? Sure, of course. Naturally.
00:41:21
Speaker
See, there it is. So aside from picking up the phone is something that is hard. I have the same anxiety. My palms will sweat when I have to pick up the phone, especially for a cold call, and you've got to sell yourself a bit. But what else do you find that you struggle with, but you're able to get over it so you can get the work done?
00:41:49
Speaker
Um, let's say I think we've actually covered many things getting started, you know, pacing myself. Um, those are the ones, uh, you know, kickers, we'll throw that in there. You know, how do you, I really nail the ending the hammer. Um, yeah. You know, being disciplined, I would say about.
00:42:13
Speaker
discipline in general, you know, because if you're, I don't have an office to go to. And so it's very easy for me to spend my day working, not working. Yeah, cleaning the house. Exactly. Yeah. Those are things, you know, one always will struggle with. Yeah, I mean, I think those are kind of a big one. And then also how to be alive to your different, for lack of a better word, constituents.
00:42:43
Speaker
You know, like how are you, who are you writing this for? You know, who are you writing? Are you writing for yourself? Are you writing for what kind of audience are you trying to reach? You know, what is your responsibility to the story? What is your responsibility to the subject? Figuring out that kind of stuff. What's your responsibility to the agreement you made, you know, in terms of timing and practical stuff? You know, those are all things you sort of have to negotiate
00:43:14
Speaker
every time you do a story. Oh, I'm sorry, go on. I was gonna say, do you work solely at home for the most part? Yeah, I work coffee shops.
00:43:26
Speaker
What does hard work look like to you?
Measuring Productivity and Satisfaction
00:43:30
Speaker
How do you measure it so you feel like at the end of the day you were like, oh yeah, I got the most out of it. That was a good day of work, and you can get after it the next day. Sometimes in this line of work, it's a little hard to measure. And I wonder how you measure it so you feel satisfied. I measure it in all different ways.
00:43:56
Speaker
You know, I mean, doing the kind of writing I do sometimes. Like a lot of the, you know. Blog posts I do are done in a single day. So like that will be that will be a day of work, you know. And at the end of the day, you can say, OK, I did that, you know, good job or bad job or whatever. New job. But, you know, I'm not thinking like it's kind of self-contained in a way that other kinds of writing are like if I'm working on the book,
00:44:26
Speaker
it, you know, sometimes it'll be like I made a certain kind of breakthrough, you know, that I was kind of stuck on something and I figured it out. And sometimes I will look like only a couple lines on the page, you know, but it was like a tremendous amount of like mental and energy and work. And sometimes, you know, a successful day is having written 3000 words or, you know, I don't really kind of put a, I have done writing projects where
00:44:56
Speaker
I just need to like do a certain amount of It actually is pretty measured where I'm like, I'm gonna write a thousand words a day And there's a kind of discipline to that but I have also kind of Generally pretty flexible about what constitutes a good day bad day and I've also had days where I've like produced a lot and Not felt great about it. So You know, I wouldn't kind of I wouldn't be able to describe it very easily. Mm-hmm
00:45:25
Speaker
And how do you go about organizing your notes in a lot of the research you do, especially for something that's as labor intensive as your biography on Louisa Adams?
Organizing Research for Biography
00:45:39
Speaker
So, yeah, how do you go about organizing stuff? And then, yeah. Well, for that, I mean, I mentioned I use this program Scrivener. Yep. Yep. So I would have a Scrivener dedicated to
00:45:54
Speaker
her papers. I actually had, I think, four dedicated to her papers because there were so many. You know, once the size gets too big, you have to start a new one. And then, you know, one dedicated to Adam's family papers and one dedicated to other people's papers, you know, that are relevant. And then I had a timeline.
00:46:20
Speaker
I guess the biggest and then I had like one dedicated to kind of thematic stuff. So like, I had notes on, on like, you know, her nose on women, you know, that was one, or like money, um, you know, geography, um, kind of big picture of stuff where I would sort of like throw information. So sometimes when I was adding notes, I would be adding them to multiple note cards.
00:46:50
Speaker
multiple documents. And then I had a kind of massive timeline, which was sort of like the spine of the book because I ended up going pretty chronologically. And the timeline was just cold from everything. Um, and it included like snippets of, of quotes that I might want to use and, you know, just facts that information and the timeline. And then I would have often like notes, you know,
00:47:18
Speaker
under the timeline about things that I wanted to focus on and, you know, even sentences I wanted to, that had in my mind that I want to forget, you know, um, or phrases or things like that. Um, and that kind of became, uh, that was as close to I got as like actually outlining that book. But it was, you know, it was massive. Every year had its own card, you know, so I ended up with, you know,
00:47:48
Speaker
more than 70 of them, like documents. So yeah, it was a huge and kind of sprawling research process. And then of course I switched computers and like
00:48:01
Speaker
The thing didn't transfer properly and, you know, it was a mess. But, you know, it all worked out in the end. And when you were conducting interviews, do you use a recorder and you do and do you do your own transcriptions? When I'm doing phone stuff, I sometimes do, but I mean, I have one of these apps where you can record a phone conversation, but often I'm just transcribing.
00:48:31
Speaker
as I go on the phone, but because I can type faster than I can write, I'm a really bad... One of my biggest weaknesses, I would say, this is not a small thing. I have really bad handwriting. Yeah, me too. Me too. And I'm slow with my handwriting. So like, I basically cannot keep up with the conversation or read it afterward. So I try and use... I try and record interviews and then like use my handwriting disasters for taking notes about, you know, context
00:49:03
Speaker
And do you have a night or evening routine that sets up your mornings, or do you try to get up early and set things up in the morning itself to try to set up your day to win? Morning. I'm not really a morning person, so I actually use the morning to sort of get myself organized. I'm not like a wake up at six and start writing. I'm more of a like
00:49:29
Speaker
You're more likely to see me writing at, you know, 1.30 a.m. than you are to see me writing at 7.30 a.m. Wow. Yeah, and so what time do you end up waking up? It depends. My, my fiance is a graduate student, so he has very variable hours as well. So we end up getting like
00:49:58
Speaker
It depends, it will sometimes be 11 and it will sometimes be two, you know? So yeah, very variable. And I end up getting, that's what I go to bed, and I end up getting up at anywhere between seven and nine. But even when I like, I'll get up at seven, but I'm not, you know, I make breakfast, I read the newspaper, I, you know, I kind of don't really kind of
00:50:28
Speaker
almost like I have something to do like imminently. Again, deadlines are helpful. I am a little bit kind of like wax the days of cold through my morning and then I can sort of bear down later on. But yeah, I work at night a lot.
00:50:48
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. Maybe what you would call a favorite failure that has helped sort of coach you into your current success, something to learn.
Importance of Revision and Inspiration
00:50:59
Speaker
I wish I could say they were my favorites. I definitely have had some less successful memories. I mean, I've learned a lot from them. Do you have any specific one that comes to mind? I'm trying to think.
00:51:17
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I definitely have had pieces that I wish I'd done differently, or it's massive things I wish I'd done differently. But they're usually pretty kind of like, I don't usually draw macro lessons from them. I think more about this is what I would have done differently on a specific instance.
00:51:40
Speaker
So maybe in the last five years or so, is there any behavior or habit that you would say has improved, you know, the work you do or even your life that helps set up your work to be more successful and you feel more satisfied with it? I would say that, I mean, something I learned later on, I wouldn't say this is the last five years, I would say this is the last, I would say last seven years.
00:52:09
Speaker
maybe the last five years. Revising is huge for me. I'm really kind of embracing that as opposed to sort of pretending that's not true. Writing away from the computer, which I already mentioned, like writing in my head, kind of trying to have a certain kind of like, I don't know, I mean, I'm big into like feeling your way in stories, which is a kind of vague thing to say.
00:52:39
Speaker
I feel like there's often like a kind of like a unwritten story beneath the surface story, you know, and you sort of have to kind of like get intimate with it. How do you get there? Do you don't get there in front of the computer? You don't get there outlining in my experience. I don't, you know, I get there by like,
00:53:04
Speaker
just letting my thoughts like run and think, you know, and going on walks and not being kind of pushing it too hard, but, you know, giving yourself this kind of time and space, even if the time and space is like, even if you're doing something that day, you know, with this piece, for instance, let yours all sort of like take an hour or two and just think about it.
00:53:32
Speaker
Without sort of trying to like rush the words onto the page And are you listening when you go on these walks are you are you unplugged or do you listen? Yeah, yeah No, I mean sometimes I can listen to like there's certain kinds of music you can listen to I mean actually sometimes like if there's like a tone if I there's a tone I know I want to write like
00:53:54
Speaker
And I will find like a movie soundtrack kind of same tone. But yeah, definitely no like proper music or podcasts or anything like that, because you have to be able to hear yourself. Right. And what kind of other artistic media do you like to consume that helps to inform your reading in your in your writing, whether that's podcasts or documentary film or feature films?
00:54:22
Speaker
I mean, I like movies, but I wouldn't say that that is, I'm not a big watcher of things. And I listen to podcasts, but again, I don't think it's really informing me. Novels, frankly, poetry. I mean, that kind of feeds into my writing for sure. There's some stories that I will come back to kind of again and again, just for craft reasons.
00:54:50
Speaker
When I was reading, as I'm reading Louisa, it struck me like it was very influenced, at least just from me, maybe this is completely false, but Jane Austen really seemed to come through for me anyway. I think it had a very pride and prejudice feel to it, especially in the early goings.
00:55:15
Speaker
I'm glad you said that because I had a different book in line for each section or not a different book, but a different writer. And for the first section, it was Jane Austen for sure. Yeah. I caught one line too. It was like the, you know, a man with a fortune. Yeah. I was like, there it is. It was a little tell. Yeah. So I had, you know, that was Jane Austen. There was a middle March section. There was a war on peace.
00:55:45
Speaker
I wouldn't say that there were inspirations there are more kind of just like Quietly informing they were a little bit like fertilizer in the soil Yeah, and our coach, right? Yeah, I mean Jane Austen was also really interesting I went back and read all of her books because that you know, J. Austin and Louise are born in the same year. Oh Wow in England and in the same sort of Economic
00:56:14
Speaker
stratum. So, um, it was actually, but it was incredibly helpful for me to go back and read her books because in this time, instead of reading them as like the romantic novels that I read them, you know, as in high school, I read them as like products of their time and place and, you know, written in the climate in which they were written about, about which I now knew a lot. And I realized that there were like so much about money and which I just hadn't seen, you know, everybody has like a,
00:56:44
Speaker
a price tag. So and so is worth 500 pounds or marriages are alliances and contracts really. Everything is like a diplomatic negotiation. There's just this way in which the kind of economic and contractual reality of marriage is just so much a part of the story that I just didn't
00:57:09
Speaker
appreciate before. And that really helped me understand some of the things that Louisa went through, which I didn't really make sense to me before then. Not because they explained anything like specific, but just they helped give me a sort of sense of what it was like to live and be at that time.
00:57:28
Speaker
Yeah. And what are, you know, you mentioned Jane Austen, of course. What are some some books or that you find yourself maybe rereading that help remind you of like, oh, yeah, that's how it's done. And those are like like we were just saying, like the coaches that help you along. What are some of those titles you revisit? I mean, when I'm doing like biography and history, I would say there are a couple of writers like
00:57:58
Speaker
Richard Holmes is someone I'll just, I'll like read, even just read a few pages of just to get him in my, you know, get him in my ear. I will read it. It depends on what I'm doing, you know, cause often I want something specific, but, or, or there are a couple of books that, you know, like Stacy shifts, Vera was really important to me when I was writing Louisa. Um, you know, I mean, there are,
00:58:26
Speaker
things like that. Um, there's some essays, like gaitley's a silent season of hero is, is something I read, you know, 20 times. It depends on what I'm doing. But, um, yeah, I mean, I have a, I mean, I have like a doc, a Evernote document with just like articles that don't even necessarily mean a lot to me, or I don't think they're, they're not always great articles, but they just have,
00:58:55
Speaker
some great sentences in them. And I like hearing those. And Lewis McFarquhar is a writer that I read, you know, kind of not only for pleasure, but for kind of, you know, try and sort of draw her blood a little bit. Can you recall a book or two that sort of turned the world from black and white into color, like kind of unlock things like, oh, like I can do that.
00:59:24
Speaker
I don't know if they were like so much like, I can do that, but like, wow, writing can do that. Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Because, yeah, with art diminished writers, self confidence, they're like, there's no way in hell I could do that. Yeah. I would say that.
00:59:42
Speaker
Shelly by Richard Holmes, I just mentioned, was one of those books where I was like, Oh my God, a book can have energy, you know, in this way, like a book can run. A book can run. That's great. I mean, I think that the kind of, I mean, I'm going to mention writers I just mentioned because they're in front of my mind, but, you know, in very different ways, both Larissa McFarquhar and Gates Willies do interiority in a way that I really,
01:00:12
Speaker
both admire and aspire to, where you feel like you're kind of getting inside of your character, but without the sort of transgressive violence to their actual being. Those are, reading some of them, I was like, wow, this is what I want to do.
01:00:33
Speaker
Nice. And how have you managed, or not managed, but I suspect managed, to kind of run your own race?
Creating a Unique Writing Path
01:00:42
Speaker
Because it's easy to compare yourself to people you admire and to people you aspire to be. And sometimes you can get into traps of comparison. So partly what's helped me is writing about sports, actually. Because not many people write about sports the way I try to do it.
01:01:02
Speaker
probably more do now than did when I started five years ago. So that was one way, you know, just getting, clearing my own little subject lane or feeling like I did. I don't think I actually did, but yeah. And then, you know, kind of trusting that what you're doing is also just not being, I guess what's a better way to play this, having a more generous view to say like,
01:01:33
Speaker
many good things can exist. And also be like, oh, there's only one good story about this. But the idea that there's a lot of room in the world for good writing. It's like the rising tide there, right? Yeah, it's not zero-sum. Yeah. What are you working on these days, and what still excites you to the point where you're
01:02:03
Speaker
I'm going to be a little bit quiet about actually my current projects. That's okay. Oh, yeah, of course. So in any case, what do you find still excites you about the process that keeps bringing you back to the ledger and to keep digging into the stories that you find artful and truly love? I just still like words mostly. I like sentences.
01:02:30
Speaker
I still kind of get off on a great sentence. That's what does it. That's the symbol of that. Yeah. Yeah. You're always after like, uh, you know, borrow a term from baseball, like that perfect contact where you almost don't even feel it hit the bat. Yeah.
01:02:47
Speaker
Very nice. Louisa, I want to be mindful of your time. This has been wonderful. I've been just tickled to hear you speak about your wonderful work and everything. Where can people find you online and get more familiar with your work if they're not already tuned in? Sure. I have a website, which I need to update, but LouisaThomas.com, where you can find my writing and a little bit more about Louisa and conscience.
01:03:16
Speaker
Louisa being my latest book. I write for the New Yorker's website, so that's newyorker.com. And I also write a little bit for the magazine, but not that much. And then I have, yeah, probably for the writing I do elsewhere, it's easiest to find on the writings tab of my website. Very nice, very nice. And I will use that as a spur to update it.
01:03:48
Speaker
another round in the can. What'd you get from it? Any takeaways? What are you struggling with in your own work? Feel free to reach out via email or Twitter. I'm easy enough to find.
01:04:00
Speaker
I also have a monthly newsletter where I send out my book recommendations and what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. Head over to BrendanOMara.com to subscribe. There you'll also find show notes to all the episodes of the podcast. Newsletters once a month. No spam. You can't beat it.
01:04:20
Speaker
I think I reached a new low. I see, I begged my wife to subscribe to the podcast, but I stopped short of bribing her. You know what she said? You know, a girl's gotta make a living. Until next time, have a CNF and good week.