Transcript
Speaker: What's up, queens? Welcome back to the Female Learning Strategy. I'm here with our special guests, but also firstly with my co-host, Rose. Hi, everybody.
Speaker: And we have Sophia back. Hi. Yay, Sophia. Well, I don't know if it's so nice to be back with the story. I'm sorry that you had to be back, but I'm happy that you get to tell this story because for a while she couldn't even tell it.
Speaker: And you'll understand everything. But basically, this is a story about dating the perils of dating men, especially ones that have a very small, fragile ego, which is the most of them.
Speaker: So Sofia, the last time we spoke to you what was the story that you were sharing with us, your horror dating story? Yeah, I think the ah the first episode was about like, why not to date a philosopher? and how And how essentially, like, I met someone who I tried to get cut ties with several times, and he always found his way, like, manipulating his way back into my life um because he couldn't take a no and also couldn't respect boundaries and like there were lots of incidents of like boundary crossing even though I i kept voicing them but like they just like weren't upheld basically and of course there's always to an extent there's always two in the game where like me because of my like seeing the good side in people or like
Speaker: thinking, oh, he just means well, like he has good intentions, whatever, like excusing that. That's what kind of like keeps you in that, like stuck in that loop, I guess. um But I think, yeah, last time we spoke, I just like...
Speaker: like told a bit about that story back and forth of like the manipulation and how to like eventually cut ties. um But it turned out that that was by far not the end of the story.
Speaker: Sophia, I remember I could just interject for a minute, I remember like listening to this and getting so upset on your behalf, just like, but also like, there's a part of me that got mad at you because it was like, why doesn't she just, and if she would only, and you know, that revealed to me how much I've internalized for victim blaming.
Speaker: Well, I don't necessarily know if it's victim blame because i I do, like, I definitely do agree that there's always two, like, like two two people to the story, right? Sure. But at the same time, there's always, like, it's never black and white, right? um And... and Yeah, and we can like, I think women especially have this tendency to just like so want to see the good in people, right? And then excuse the bad for that. That's the other part of it. All he was doing was trying to be a part, trying to be close to you, but then he bombed your vacation in Thailand, just like stayed and stayed and stayed.
Speaker: And you were holiday. Right, on your holiday, your precious holiday, which we only get so many in our lifetime. You know what i mean? Like each one is worth its weight in gold. But so there were like, I like how you were already like, well, there are two sides. No, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker: We are way too generous and we are way too gracious and like... ah Understanding the other person's opinion, like getting where they're coming from. um But I'm talking about from my own perspective, I was already so quick to jump on your back and be like, why didn't you do XYZ, Sophia? And that that kind of alarmed me because it just goes to show how deeply this this conditioning is for us to look at the person who's being harassed to look at their behavior instead of just yeah pointing at him and being like, this was completely unacceptable. this is This is stalking at this point. And like, I know it doesn't technically, maybe technically you can't like bring charges, but this is literally like insanity. And what are you supposed to do when you're dealing with insane people? It's a whole other level of unreality.
Speaker: That's very true. It's about to become even more true. Oh, no. Okay. So that was the last we heard is he had bombed your Thailand vacation. And after that, you were like, you know what? I really am done with this guy. Right?
Speaker: Yeah, I think the talent was like still beginning of the story. There were a few others in between. to be honest, I don't know exactly where we stopped. but I mean, in the end, it was always the same story of like, like me trying to cut ties like several times and then like him just always like finding the most ridiculous ways um to manipulate himself like back into my life. um Yeah. And then um it got to a point where and blocked him again on WhatsApp and ah then he like he like harassed me on email basically.
Speaker: And then eventually because he just like real life, cause in the end, like what these people want is like, they want connection, right? That's, that's like the main thing. So they will do anything to get that connection, to get a response. So once he noticed that like, he's, he's just not getting a response anymore. Like not on what's like WhatsApp block, but like not on email, nowhere.
Speaker: Like he started like, I'm like for the background I'm German and he started then. to compare me with a Nazi killing Jews. like for I don't know how he made that connection, like in a way because I'm so...
Speaker: like harsh with him whatever I don't I don't know I think he invited you but yeah I think he wanted to have dinner with you on your birthday and you said that you're not interested yeah yeah yeah thanks thanks for ah reminding me I forgot the details already exactly he was like I want to make your like I want to make your birthday like the the best day and let me take you out for birthday was like i don't want to spend my birthday with you like are you fucking insane like I'm trying to talk ties with you and you're like oh let me take you out for your birthday I'd rather sit alone my living room staring at the wall
Speaker: um so I I I declined that um kindly um and then like it through that somehow like came this uh this accusation like with like comparing me with the Nazi killing Jews, because he knew like as a German, you will get a reaction to that because of those kinds of things hit, hit like still that there is this thing like where this just hits very hard.
Speaker: yeah So on that, I essentially like I had a friend staying with me at the time and he had gone like with other female friends, he had gone through like those kind of,
Speaker: um harassment processes where also like police was involved in stuff so he gave me some advice and he was like you know what like if he doesn't leave you alone like like you should get a restraining order and you can at this point so i basically answered on this Nazi accusation I said like that this this friend advised me to do that and if he doesn't leave me alone I would basically um like get a restraining order. I don't know if that would have even been possible, right? But like it's just something I wrote and then it was quiet for two days and I was like, hmm, maybe actually
Speaker: Maybe this has actually worked. um And then the day after my birthday, it was two days later, like just before midnight, I get an email that was like two, three pages long, like, Oh my God. Like, uh, like divided into several sections in legal language, uh, to, to like, to, for background also, like he is like, he has, he's trained as a lawyer. He's not a practicing lawyer, but he, he has studied law. So he, and of course, philosopher never would to make sure a philosopher would make sure that he can wield all the tools to make your life miserable. This absolutely tracks. Yeah. No, and and like in actually in his own words, he said the reason why he studied law is to is to defend himself in court.
Speaker: Sure, sure. Because he's fucking crazy. So he knows he's going to have to defend himself in court because he's crazy and he does crazy shit. Yeah. Okay, sorry. I think he usually does that more like in business context, but still like to already know that like I've never been to court in my life. Like why would I? but like he studied law for the sake of being able to defend himself anyways he's a litigious dude that's what I'm saying this tells you so much about this guy my god so you get this email
Speaker: And it's like, I don't even know how to summarize it because these kind of things you have to read with your own eyes to like believe how insane it is. But he basically like used every single thing that he knew about me, like to turn it against me and blackmail me like in the most criminal way, like asking Several things, like asking amongst others his things back, which were things like a phone charger and stuff like that, like chewing. That's bad, no problem. But his main ask was basically like, okay, like in order for us to settle this situation, I want you, like he basically wanted me out of like our, like let's say social scene. of the Burning Man community in our area. And we're both part of that. And he was like, okay, don't want to see you anymore. Just to make sure, in our area means in the continent.
Speaker: He lives in the US and he wanted to bar her from going to an event in Sweden. Yeah. So, yeah, i said he was like, okay, like you like I want you out of those events because like I'm going there and I don't want you to go there um And if if you don't like if you don't do what I want or if you don't agree to that, then I will basically like report you to the government for certain things that I had allegedly done. um As a background, like the things that he was accusing me of are...
Speaker: Like, it's definitely like it was definitely something about me that he knew was illegal, but it was something that I derived no like benefit of. It was me helping a friend in need. um And it's like it was like everyone who heard it was like this is like the most insane thing I've ever heard.
Speaker: You know, like you're helping a friend and like this guy is like trying to get you jail for like helping a friend. Yeah. so So that's basically like what he what he used against me mainly, but also a few other small things that he knew about me.
Speaker: and And I also want to add the cherry on top was that he said that he's going to file a restraining order against you. Yeah, exactly. Because he said, we know, if I testify against you in court, then I can get like, as a, like, like how do they call it? Like as a protection for ah for witness like this protection, i can then get a restraining order against you and then you can't go to like all of those events that I go to. my God, this guy is so fucking insane, Sophia. Oh my gosh, did your heart just like sink to your toes when you read this email? Could you even believe it?
Speaker: i think I started reading, I was still laughing and then like eventually I got to the end of it. I didn't laugh anymore because it took a while. Like it was really like a three page... like essay um
Speaker: um and ah at that point like like it didn't Like, it was just so, like... Out there?
Speaker: Out there, exactly. That it didn't really land, I think. Because I'm like, you can't... yeah Like, you literally can't be serious. Like, the way he was also, like, describing that as if I'm like, you know, like, you're going to go to jail for this and that. Like, I'm like, I'm literally helping... friends And he's like the biggest, he's, he's the biggest on karma. Right. And all those things. I'm like, what, like, where where's karma gone here? like I swear. Have you ever heard Sophia? Have you ever heard the expression?
Speaker: Every accusation is a confession. wow Yeah. Right. This is, fun yes this is used in the U S oftentimes about like, you know, the far right extremists who are like, we don't want your trans women, ah you know, molesting our daughters. And it's always like, yeah, but you're like, you've been arrested for like child sex crimes a million times. yeah and Every accusation is a confession. And when I go, so he believes in karma. And so he believes in protecting himself legally. Like, do you see the line that I'm drawing here?
Speaker: yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, after you got this email, I'm sure you must have like brought it to a friend or two and been like, what the fuck? And also, what the fuck do I even do with this? Right?
Speaker: So I must say I was really lucky that point because that friend that I just like who had also like advised me to get a restraining order. He was like still like staying with me. And as I said, like he had some experience with this, like from another friend in the past where that like really was escalated to like police and stuff.
Speaker: So like I went to him and I let him read the email. and And then he obviously he doesn't know the person, right? So it's like this is just a like this is just a dog barking and not biting.
Speaker: ah That's what sounds like to me, but still. And I like I would have said that probably also with like most other people if I would have gotten such an email. But at the same time, knowing that he's a lawyer, knowing that he has done those kind of things in a business context, like I know, like I've heard those stories of him. Right. Yeah. where I know he's capable of that.
Speaker: um I am surprised that he's going there like with me in that private context. But like, I know he's totally capable of that. And he's ruthless once he decided to hate someone. And he has that like he has he said that to me like before, like in different contexts about other people.
Speaker: So like even like calling himself ruthless um once he like got to that point of like, okay, like this is it. So I was like, I i don't think so.
Speaker: um But at the same time, i was still kind of hoping I could get him to reason, I think, because I know, again, same as with the Nazi accusation,
Speaker: like what he essentially wants is connection, right? It's not, he doesn't want the court. He doesn't want the, I don't like, I don't want contact with you. And I want, he doesn't want the restraining order. He wants the opposite, right? Yeah. yeah yeah um Yeah. So basically, I mean, what I did is like, I reached out to, to, to a criminal lawyer and I shared this with them because I was like, okay, mean, this is,
Speaker: It's actually serious because it is, in a way, of course, it is something like it illegal, right? And there is something he has against me, um regardless of what, like, you know, like...
Speaker: what the intention of that, of that was. Yeah. But blackmail is also illegal.
Speaker: but Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that's basically what these guys, like the lawyers, that's what they then also said, like, okay, like let's make it clear to him that what he's doing is like, just, just as well a criminal offense. Right. Yeah. Yeah. um And in his opinion, that wasn't the case because in his opinion, it is only blackmail if,
Speaker: you know, he would be asking for money or something like that. And then maybe in legal terms, you wouldn't call it blackmail, but it is still a criminal offense. It is coercion. Like if you want, like if you're like pressuring someone to either do something or not do something, like in like force, like in in that context, it is like, is still criminal offense regardless of whether it involves money or not. He's like, but I didn't mean it like that. So I can't count like that legally.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. You know, there's another expression I've heard where like at a certain point, um the results of actions, whether from stupidity or cruelty, end up being the same thing.
Speaker: Right. yeah so So at a certain point, like whether you intend it or not, like I have to assume malice yeah at this point, you know. Which is why you went to the lawyer. And like, that's, I'm so, you don't know how relieved my heart just got when you said you went to the lawyer. Like, thank God, because these are the types, even if it's all bark and no bite, like these are the types that will only back down when they, when they are faced with ah ah like a fellow bully, which in this case is a lawyer.
Speaker: Yeah. ah Yeah, and he obviously like in his email because he's not stupid. He was also asking like for privacy and that I do not share this like what he's writing there with anyone. Of course not. Right. Because like I wouldn't want anyone to know that I'm blackmailing people.
Speaker: So then, yeah, basically the lawyer said, he look, like we can like write him an email. We have to obviously be careful that we don't threaten him back because then we're also doing something illegal. But we can just, like in legal language, like basically let him know that what he's doing is also criminal. And if he doesn't want, then we will like basically also file that against him in a way.
Speaker: And I said, like hold on for a minute. I kind of like i want to try to get him... to reason like you know sweet sofia sweet sweet sofia this guy is so far gone but like again this is what's wild to me is that it's so clear from the outside that you're dealing with somebody who is actually like um mentally unwell like diagnosable certifiable right um But again, as women, we've been taught you know to placate and to cajole and to to baby. We've been taught to baby these men. And like all the actions you take make so much sense to me while also sounding completely insane. Because you're dealing with an insane person. I mean, you're dealing with somebody who doesn't who doesn't live based in reality, right? yeah But you're still trying to be reasonable and like matter of fact. And it's commendable and it's also futile.
Speaker: Yeah, that's exactly the thing. That's also what I was saying at the time that he is crafting for himself an alternative reality that fits his wants, but nothing that he says fits in reality, for instance, like that he doesn't want her to talk to her friends about it.
Speaker: But that's what happens when you do shit. People talk about it. So he's trying to craft a world where you don't talk about the crazy shit that he's doing because he doesn't want to lose face in front of people that he might know.
Speaker: But that's what happens when you act like a crazy person. yeah but also And also, this is one of the abusers, number one. um It's like their top three tools is like um privacy, secrecy, and... um And separating you from your herd, essentially. Yeah, I mean, separating from the herd was exactly what he was trying to do with his ask, like getting me out of my entire like social circle, right? Yep.
Speaker: yeah And then on top of that, asking for privacy, right? No, absolutely. Wow. Okay. But you're like, listen, some lawyers, thank you for this information. This is good to know. I'm going to have this in my back pocket just in case. But let me see if I can work something out with this clearly unwell person. Okay, continue. the thing is, I mean, also like to protect my friend that was like involved in this. Okay.
Speaker: yeah and who like had nothing to do with our conflict obviously i was trying like i didn't want to like i didn't want to escalate it because i knew like you know if like he gets there oh or if he like then like once it's out there like then we will end up in court and like i know he has all the means like all the financial means to like destroy me right because he can go like five rounds in court and like eventually like you'll just like don't want to get there. Right. And like, especially like to protect my friend that was involved in this.
Speaker: Um, I was like, okay, I need to like get him to reason to to just like take this bullshit back. Right. Yeah. Um, so I threw my pride out of the window oh and, um, yeah. And basically like told him, like, I mean, I was still firm to say like, I'm not going to give into your stupid ask. Right. Because like you're, you're literally asking me to like, like, like, like basically get out of my social circle, right? Which is not like, which is not an option. And I'm not, and I'm, I'm not like giving into blackmail, like just out of principle, right? Like out of like value, values in a way. um But I was like trying at the same time to be like,
Speaker: like we are clearly like we've come to a point where like we're so not talking with each other, but like besides each other. And like, maybe we can find a way to like actually talk with each other. Right. And then I did have a call with him, which unfortunately, because it's already been a while, i can't remember the details, but I do remember that it was two hours long and i was like genuinely entertained Like at that point, I couldn't even take it serious anymore because it was like having an argument with Donald Trump.
Speaker: As you said, Patricia, right? Like to have someone who has like so his like own entire reality and like yeah arguing with arguments that are so like...
Speaker: like just ridiculous, but at the same time presenting them with so much confidence that it's like that you almost want to believe them. here Yeah. Like what kind of emotional armor do you have? I would have been so wrapped up and turned around and turned inside out. Like this kind of person... But again, I also come from an abusive family. And so this would be like deeply triggering to me. Are you just able to like kind of protect yourself because you come from maybe a little more stable background? Like how could you even do this for two hours?
Speaker: That's a good question. But I think like I could like the moment you talk to someone and you like you realize like it's much harder to be.
Speaker: an asshole in person or on the phone, like when you speak directly to someone, then it is like, like on email or so. Right. And like the emails and WhatsApp, they were like, in like, they were really intense. They were like real, like proper harassment, like, and me, especially trying to like keep, you know, throw my pride out the window and like keep the peace of it, like to get him to drop his, to drop his accusations.
Speaker: Like to like endure that and to read that and still keep like answering and trying to keep a piece that was like really really challenging but on the phone I could like hear because that you can interpret voice and like all those things right I could hear that again all he wanted was connection right so there wasn't that threat in there there wasn't that like I'm gonna fucking destroy you there was this like I just want to be friends, which is obviously I didn't want to, but it's a different kind of message.
Speaker: And clearly he very much wanted to talk to you. Yeah, yeah. He kept on the phone for two hours because he wanted to talk to you. Exactly. And whenever I, like literally whenever I try to answer, like I try to basically end the end the phone call by saying, it seems we don't have an agreement.
Speaker: um So let's like end the phone call. Then he came up with something else to like not not hang up. So it was like very clear. It wasn't me like being on the phone for two hours. It was very clear that he didn't want to hang up, right? he wanted to keep that connection going.
Speaker: So eventually like after, like I think I said that three, four times, I was like, it seems we don't have an agreement because I'm not giving into your, like to your blackmail requests. Yeah.
Speaker: And like, we can't find a way to like ah another way to like, basically, because my, I think my proposal was to, we can like coexist in this community yeah without like, without like one having to ban the other from the community, um but also without being friends. Right. But that wasn't an option from him for him because for him, it was like, okay, we are the friends we're friends. Right. some now chase you You're basically blackmailing me into being friends. Like, that's what you're trying to do. But you can't... I also said to him, you realize that you can't force someone into being friends, right? that's not That's not possible. And then he's like, I'm not forcing you. I'm just motivating you to work on... cancer
Speaker: Oh my God, I'm motivating you. Oh, I'm not telling you to work on the friendship. Now, as I speak, the things come back into my memory. Like there were like and like a lot of those sentences. And now you understand why it wasn't a free comedy show, because this was like basically the entire conversation. Yeah.
Speaker: Wow. Because you were trying to articulate to him, for instance, if you meet at a public event, you can either say hi or you can avoid him and not say hi. Because it later he was supposedly like, in order to get over you, I need to not see you. So you're like, we can coexist. I can come and say hi, or I can ignore whatever you prefer. And that's the thing that I'm trying to say.
Speaker: His perception of reality is completely skewed by his childish needs, and he's trying to mold reality into what he wants. He cannot accept the fundamental thing that he cannot accept, is that Sofia doesn't want to be in a romantic or platonic relationship with him.
Speaker: And he's trying to bend reality to not have that fact real. yeah You cannot accept it. yeah So it's saying like, no, you should come say hi, but then we should talk. you you If you ignore me, then i will have to report you.
Speaker: But why? Yeah, yeah. So essentially, I mean, like basically really the the summary of that phone call was like, Like, I want to motivate you to work on our friendship. And I said, it seems we don't have an agreement, so let's end the call.
Speaker: And then whenever I tried to end the call, like, it kept going. So that's why we ended up in two hours. But then eventually I said, okay, like, it seems we don't have an agreement. Like, let's let's leave it here. and it was like, okay, then then then i have to go back to my...
Speaker: my previous claim. So it was like, oh, so it was only a joke or like only not meant like this, like a blackmail, as long as I agree to your things, right? So that's- As long as i do what you want. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: Uh-huh. He was always like, you know, like i'm I didn't mean that. And then I like that. That wasn't actually real. I just wanted to be friends. And then once I said like, okay, it seems we don't have an agreement. We're not going to be friends. It was like, okay, then I have to go back. So then it was actually meant like this, right? And So in the end, like that basically didn't work out, even though it was very entertaining. um I then basically said to my lawyers, okay, I failed in my mission.
Speaker: Can you please? but Yeah, can you please basically like send him that mail that we were talking about? And they sent, like I must really say, like I was very happy with how they framed it. They said, you know, like I don't want to escalate it. Like my main goal is to like find...
Speaker: find, you know, like an agreement. A resolution. is Exactly, a resolution. um And of course he can have his things and his phone charger back.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, I'll send it in the phone to sure. sure yeah um But that I'm not giving into like that ask with ah basically leaving the community because this is like my social life and so on, cetera.
Speaker: So basically, like, just repeating what I had already said just from, like, a legal perspective and them also making clear that what he's doing is, like, very much a criminal offense and that we can also go against that. um And then, obviously, like, once he got that email, like, literally two minutes later, I'm getting a WhatsApp. I'm asking for privacy and I'm hearing from Thomas Felley.
Speaker: Why are you complaining when I'm harassing you? I harassed you and asked you not to complain. I harassed you nicely as a friend.
Speaker: so i said, well, you as a lawyer, first of all, I need to have a lawyer in order to talk to you on eye level because I don't have the kind of ah legal education that you have.
Speaker: um And on top of that, you as a lawyer, you surely know that he... um has what's it called conflict, like he's he's bound to confidentiality and he's not going to do anything unless I tell him to. So that has nothing to do with like by letting your privacy. That was like the same kind of thing that like, or similar to also the phone call where he would just make things up that were just like, he knew werere wrong, but it was just like, he was, he would say it with such a confidence that it, that it almost feels threatening again. Right. Like he knows it's bullshit, but it's like, he says it with such a confidence as like, you are like, you know, not respecting my privacy when You know what, honestly, listening to, you know, part of this is comical, but ah ah another part of me listens and and like just imagines how many people's lives has he absolutely decimated this man?
Speaker: Because this is a dangerous individual. Right. Because he's armed himself with as many tools as he can to get people to comply, to coerce people, to blackmail people, to browbeat people. And like, for one thing, you clearly have quite a strong will, Sophia.
Speaker: um I'm sure it also helps that like he doesn't live in your city and he like can't come and stalk you at your apartment. imagine if But that's the thing. like Imagine if he did live in your city and you had gone on a couple of dates with him and then he's like, OK, well, we're going to be friends at the very least. Like this is the kind of person who would not leave you in peace. He's not leaving you in peace from thousands of miles away. Yeah, yeah that's right.
Speaker: That's right. Okay, so he's like, you didn't know what was going see. Can also say that initially when he pursued Sofia, she told him that she's not sure that she's interested in a romantic relationship with her.
Speaker: So he said, okay, so let's develop a friendship. And like all of the things that they were doing together, Is it okay that I say? If not, we can cut it. But like, you know, you were traveling together, you were sleeping in the same hotel room, you were sleeping together some of the time.
Speaker: And all of that was framed as friendship, which I again say, like, he was ultimately not able to accept that you are not interested in him. So he he created, he fabricated a different reality in which you are quote unquote friends, but he just could never accept that you're not into him.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, relatively early in that relationship, he did really just, like, like define, and that, like, was without involving me in that decision. it was like, you're, like, like we we're going have this ride-or-die friendship. And I remember that he said that even before, like I think we knew each other, like, for one and a half weeks or something.
Speaker: And I'm like, how? like And we had met like twice or some or three times or something like that. And I was like, when he said, I was like, how? like I mean, if if you were to have such a friendship, like like that doesn't just develop develop just because you decide that, right? It's exactly look it's a mutual buy-in. One person cannot mandate a bestie, okay? That's not how being a bestie works. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh my gosh. Yeah. But so that was basically, I mean, that that's what he had in his mind. He also, like he had already planned like all those travels and all the burns and like all the things that he wanted to do. And I told him from the very beginning, I always was super transparent also with my boundaries and all that.
Speaker: Um, to say like, like, I know you have a lot of time and money, like, but especially time at your hands, right? Free time. I am very flexible with my work to work from wherever I want, but I'm, I'm,
Speaker: they have a limited amount of holidays, right? And the things that you have planned, like that's maybe possible in your schedule, but it's not possible in mine. And I don't want to spend my entire like annual leave, or like with with you when I don't even know if I like you yet. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that was that was hard to to understand. um Yeah, where were we So he'd gotten the email from your lawyer. So did your lawyer send him an email directly from his law office? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And then he's like WhatsApping you like, what the hell? I thought you were my friend and like, can't you honor my privacy? And you were like, ah well, there is privacy because it's confidentiality. But obviously in order to meet you as a like on your level as a lawyer, I had to i had to seek external counsel.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. And then he um he thought like he has to now educate my my lawyer that what he was doing was not actually criminal and it's not blackmail or whatever. And like he said that to me that he was going to answer, like send an answer email to to my lawyer. And i I kept sending screenshots like on WhatsApp to to my lawyer. he was I must say he was really funny. um and And when he, like when I basically sent him that screenshot of him saying like, oh, I'm going to, you know, educate him.
Speaker: Then he also said, well, i'm I'm looking forward to his lecture. Yeah. short smooth smooth but If you think you can educate me on Dutch, I'm listening. yeah and So it like it at that point, it was kind of ah entertaining again. um but it like it always came and went in ways, right? Where I felt like sometimes I felt I had the overhand in a way where I felt like...
Speaker: like i I had like, I understood what he wanted, right, on the connection and things. And then sometimes he just, he would just like completely flip again and like, like be super harassing and like, then it would be really difficult.
Speaker: um But overall it was of course difficult also because I was like, at the same time, like, in a way, like, my friend's, like, life, or not life, as in, like, whether life or death, but, like, his livelihood and living in um in the Netherlands also depended on on that. So it was obviously also, like, a very, very tough um a tough time on that end.
Speaker: But it, like, it basically went on like that, and he tried to make, like... convinced me to not go or asked me obviously not convince me to not go to borderland to the swedish burn which i already had tickets for at a camp for i like planned everything just to say when we say burn we mean a so type of festival yeah and yeah and so like i said i'm i'm coming anyways like you will have to deal with that yes yes yep
Speaker: um And the day before i um like before I arrived there, he actually reported us, um like me and my friend. And like he said that at that moment, obviously didn't know if it was true, but like its I could read him pretty well, actually. And I was like, I'm pretty sure he he did.
Speaker: um And he like also the day arrived, like he was still harassing me until like 3 a.m. in the morning on whatever things. But can I also say like those messages of I reported you were intertwined with a photo of where like his camp is and he was asking her if she got wet in the rain.
Speaker: Like when you say connection, i what I think he wants access. Like why did he send you those pictures? He's hoping to see you, to bump into you. Like he's saying that he's reporting you, but all he wants is for your face to look at his and your mouth to smile. That's all this fucker wants. He just wants access. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So, and then what I, like, I did another thing. I proposed that we could meet with a, like, neutral third party because, like, the festival always has a sanctuary with psychological support and stuff that is obviously meant for people, you know, like, having a psychosis or things like that and not meant for those kind of things. But I'm sure, like, they would also be available for that if if need be.
Speaker: But obviously he didn't want that because, of course, he doesn't want to know anyone, like, what he's doing. ah um So what I did then, and you're probably going to hate me for that, Savannah, but oh or spoiler alert. you know This is not Savannah, by the way, this is Rose.
Speaker: Sorry. Rose. Spoiler alert. it did um It did work. i said, okay, like we're going to meet and we're going to take MDMA together and then we're going for a walk in the talk.
Speaker: And we did that. And of course, like those kinds of things, I mean, there is MDMA therapy for a reason, right? Yeah. And those kinds of things, they really, like, they they let you drop your ego and not only his, but also mine. And like, we, it lets us see the human in the other person and like, you know, this hurt child that just wants the attention or whatever it is, right? Right.
Speaker: rather than just seeing the enemy. Right. And like, at that point, like he was seeing me as the enemy, I was seeing him as the enemy. There was like no getting through to each other in any kind of way. Right. It was just, it was, it was just shooting at other in a way, right. it It was war. Um, and, and that really just like, let's see that. Yeah. Let's let's those guards down and let's, you see the human in the other.
Speaker: And I think that's exactly what what was needed. And like, it didn't take, it didn't take 20 minutes. up to the point where we where he was like, you know, like, I never wanted to hurt you. i just care about you.
Speaker: um I feel so bad that I didn't send you a happy birthday on your birthday and that I didn't get to spend birthday with you. And then I, you know, like all all those things. Like, well, if you didn't want to hurt me, that works really well. Congratulations.
Speaker: um But I basically got him to... apologize and to, like I said, I know it you reported it like us yesterday, right? Or like not yesterday, but like a couple of days before that.
Speaker: And i want to like I want you to call them again, take it back um and say that whatever you were reporting there was just, you know, out of jealousy or whatever you want to, want to how you want to explain it. And he promised to do that. i said, I want to be there. I want to hear it. And he said he would do it after the festival. And he actually did.
Speaker: And yeah, and that's how we parted ways and are able to coexist now. um Yeah, plot twist.
Speaker: So MDMA resolved the day? that's funny.
Speaker: Honestly, that's pretty brilliant. I got to say... as somebody who is, uh, you know, partaken of those sorts of sort of, um medicinal spirits.
Speaker: Um, that's a really amazing way of reframing it for yourself and for him. I find it so interesting because clearly this man is unwell, but like the amount of grace you were able to extend to him, even until the very last encounter, like,
Speaker: It's a level of maturity that I find astonishing. um Just because like the self-possession is on another level. i don't think I don't think I've ever heard of someone being able to like keep it together and and to resolve it in such a like peaceful way. It's really impressive, Sophia.
Speaker: ah Thanks. I mean, that's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is just like what we said before, right? Like me just not having my boundaries straight. But in this case, at least it worked out, right? and like But it in the end, I was like, i do fall victim of the same thing again, of like having too much compassion, having too much understanding for people's bullshit.
Speaker: And like, because I see through that and I see like what's behind it and I see that the intention is actually like... not malicious and all those things. Right. But like, eventually we have to like, regardless of our compassion, we have to like, like let people experience the consequences of their actions. Right. And in a way I gave him to an extent to big extent what he wanted, which was connection. Right. So to and to a part, to and turn to some extent, he got what he wanted out of that. But at the same time, at least I was able to resolve the thing and also especially for my friend, for him to not get in trouble, which was the most important thing for me and like throwing out my...
Speaker: like pry it out of the window on along the way, it was, yeah, was it was a was a death. I was willing to die for that, basically. Yeah, yeah. I do agree.
Speaker: Like, you you solved it and you deserve credit for that because you're masterful. And also, like, Sofia's work is negotiation. So you are good at it.
Speaker: But on the negative way, on the negative side, I will say he he did He got what he wanted. yeah He's a master manipulator and his manipulation worked because all of this stemmed from him not being able to face the option that you're going to be in the same festival or event and you're not going to spend any time with him. And eventually, he got to do MDMA with you and spend like a whole afternoon or like two, three hours with you.
Speaker: So he did get what he wanted. And the way that he got it is through creating this urgency and like crisis for you. No, exactly. But there's never black and white, right? Like it's... No, it's not black and white. And also you solve it. Yeah.
Speaker: um And so have you heard from him since... When when was this ah burning event? That was in July, end of July.
Speaker: It was actually... Since then we learned that he was banned from Lion Hole. Yeah, that was interesting. So actually it was very quiet for about, like, until like two weeks ago or something. And I was like, yeah, I was very surprised that this, and I was very happy about the piece, Peace and Quiet.
Speaker: yeah And then both Patricia and I, we were signing up for another, like, event, the same series, Burning Man event, where i like I went with him together last um and then I was contacted by the main organizer who told me that if I was planning to come come with Jay, that that would not be possible because he's not welcome in their community anymore. And I was like, oh, that is interesting news.
Speaker: um And I said, well, I'm not definitely not planning to come with him. But um that is indeed interesting news because like for some, like somehow I'm not surprised, right? Like I'm interested, but I'm not surprised. And he said, well, if you're not surprised, that seems to be a pattern. But he also didn't tell me what, what happened. And I probably was like, okay, if you want to know, probably talk to him personally, um which obviously did not want to do. um But I was like, yeah, don't worry, I'm not coming with him. Like, I also also cut cut cut ties.
Speaker: um But then, yeah, so, like, both both Patricia and I, we kind of went on a little bit of a... um on a Fishing? A fishing expedition? Yeah, exactly. We went on an expedition to find out what happened.
Speaker: And, yeah, we actually learned that there were, like, more... I don't think boundary crossing, but like there were other incidents in. Marky. Marky. Yeah. At ah at another, at another event, like not in that, like not in the same kind, I guess, but, um but yeah, enough, enough to, to get him banned from the community.
Speaker: Wait, I'm sorry. I don't understand what got him banned. He was I don't know the exact details, right? But like, i mean, there there were also like some sort of consent issues that that basically got him banned from from that community.
Speaker: entit Okay, yeah, because this guy clearly doesn't understand. The only consent he understands is his own, right? Exactly. And the fact that the the fact that the organizer said to you, huh, this is clearly a pattern. When we've seen the pattern from your extensive story with him, like, this is, that's what i remember how I said earlier in the conversation, I was like, hmm, I wonder how many people's lives he's made extremely uncomfortable, if not unbearable. Because he clearly is the type who just, like,
Speaker: And rampages through life like a fucking overgrown toddler. i mean, this is very similar to our current president here in the U.S. where it's like it doesn't matter what your reality or what you there is no other person but this person in the entire world, you know, and you're only there to make sure he gets what he wants. So I'm absolutely not surprised in the slightest that this has happened. And I'm so grateful that the organizers actually did something about it. So often you hear about like these types just infiltrate, you know, groups that are about love and caring and like consent because they're exactly the predator who wants to go into where there's a whole bunch of prey, right?
Speaker: Like for this kind of personality, it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet at ah at a burning festival, right? Yeah. it's like exactly tell him Yes. He's just like, oh, my God, this is going to I'm going to a field day with these people. Like these are exactly the people that I can exploit the easiest. Right. Because they're understanding and they are forgiving and they just want, you know, compromise and they want us to find it ah And there is a lot of freedom and acceptance. Yes, exactly. Because this is the kind of behavior that would have gotten you either kicked out or killed from hunter-gatherer tribes, okay? People just were going to fucking put up with this attitude and this entitlement from one person in the in the herd. like It's just unheard of. But um with with with cosmopolitanism, with globalism, you know you can kind of like you've got enough different groups that your like behavior doesn't really follow you from one place to the next. Exactly. Uh-huh.
Speaker: And they take advantage of that. I'm just appalled, but like so happy that this organizer actually banned him. And so where was this ah event, Sofia? So that event, like the way he got banned from that community was in Spain. But that community also extends to events to Amsterdam. So that specific event that we were like both Patricia and I were going to was in Amsterdam.
Speaker: um So yeah, i mean the communities are like Europe-wide, right? They keep repeating. But yeah. It's very true what you're saying, Rose, your take, because it's it's um it's just two moments where he bumped into reality that we know of. But this is a kind of person that goes through life trying to impose his his desire or his wants on other people. And I would say the main main message from here is the same as the first part. It's like, if you don't want to, if you are not into somebody, don't try to do him a favor.
Speaker: They will take advantage of it. Some people, I don't want to say all men, but some men are very entitled and they just feel like they can get access to you. If you give them a little bit,
Speaker: You're not doing anybody a favor. Don't do it. If you don't like somebody, don't try to do it for him. Or don't try to do it because he's buying you things or taking in places.
Speaker: If you don't want to be with somebody and something feels off, cut him off for real. Like these people actually feel entitled to go and try and ruin somebody's life and then say, oh I'm only doing it because I want to be friends with you. Like the delusion. not It is. It's on another level. And this kind of reminds me of like, um you know, they'll try to wriggle in like Sophia was like, no, I'm not really interested in a relationship. Okay. I'll be your best friend. I'll be your friend. We'll be, we'll be the friends forever. And it's like the, anybody who has such extremes. Oh, this is what I wanted to say. One of the tenants, I find it to be one of the most effective tenants of female dating strategy is
Speaker: How does he react to your no? oh Super important. Yeah. So, like, even if you don't... So, for example, I'm actually a very agreeable person. I like a lot of things. I'm open to a lot. Like, in general, you know, i'll I'm a go-with-the-flow kind of person. Like, yeah, let's I'll try it, sure. But what FDS has taught me is that, like, I strategically have to say no.
Speaker: Just to see what his response is. is he's like He's like, oh, I want to go out for a Italian. I'll be like, I'm not really, even though I fucking love Italian. I'm not really the mood for Italian tonight. i'm i'm I'm more in the mood for like Thai. What does he do? You know, they sound like small things, yeah but they really do reveal character.
Speaker: very early on because most men are not used to hearing. They do and they reveal person's and how fragile it is. I'm actually going on a date in like a bit and this guy asked for my number last week but I just didn't feel like giving it to him because I didn't feel like we like we were talking on an app. Yeah. And I didn't feel a connection with him. I didn't see any merit in moving into WhatsApp.
Speaker: So I was like, um no, actually, I don't feel like it. And yeah I didn't do it on purpose. It wasn't strategic. I actually just didn't feel like it and I'm... a very authentic person. Yes.
Speaker: But I was indeed like, waiting to see what his approach is going to be to that. Is he going to be like, oh, okay, that's that's fine. Or is he going to be offended? If he's offended, I'm done.
Speaker: And he wasn't. Like, he was totally chill about it. As a person should be. Like, it's super, super important. Because... That's a small gauge, but basically, I think all of that is trying to gauge if he wants to have sex and you won't. Like, that's that's like the biggest, could be interpreted as a rejection for a man.
Speaker: But basically, these kinds of like more primal and loaded things, not bad intended, those are things that you cannot check directly, but you can check smaller things.
Speaker: And it's super important how somebody reacts to no. It really gauges his personality. Yeah. Testing the water, essentially. And these are like, these are age old things that, you know, women have been advised for a very long time. Like these are not anything new, but I think women in the age of like, you know, liberal feminism have been assured that this is unnecessary and you can just, you can just say what you need and you can communicate, just communicate. Look at how fucking much Sophia communicated for not being, For most of this story, like, no, I don't want a relationship. Oh, all of a sudden we're going friends and you're going to be with me for three weeks of my vacation. Like, how did that happen? Because he was never going to listen no matter how well you communicated, right?
Speaker: Yeah, because taught to be understanding. And sometimes you shouldn't be understanding. You should think like a man. I mean, I'm sorry to use this, use like a man as a way to explain how to conduct yourself as a woman.
Speaker: But in gender roles that exist in society, it is convenient to think about it that way. Like what would what would a man do? It's a convenient shorthand. It's a convenient shorthand for you think of yourself, put yourself first.
Speaker: We just don't know how to do that within our gender roles. So it's simpler to think of ourselves as men. But you know what mean? Exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. I'm so grateful to hear that you have. It sounds like you've extricated yourself from the situation alongside the efforts of the organizers. Bless them. yeah Have you heard anything? But I do want to say, Sophia, wait, I feel like sorry for cutting you off roads, but I feel like. okay We were putting all of these like, we went back to the beginning, right? We were saying like all of the things that you should do to not getting troubles, quote unquote. But you got in a bit of trouble, Sophia. And I think you were acting like a woman. You were smart, sophisticated.
Speaker: You used soft power. yeah And you took down the flames. yeah And you did it masterfully. Yeah. I mean, fun fact, I also told like my boss about the story because at the time, like when I got the email, like I was basically, and also communicating with the lawyers, I wasn't really able to work for two days because I was like all over the place and trying to like calm this guy down and stuff. So I told my boss about it and i i he previously, like half year ago, something he said to me or like longer. he said to me, like, there's no one in our company, not even our CEO, that has the kind of negotiation skills that you have, or like the kind of like like skills to like deescalate, like yeah like like get out of like tricky situations.
Speaker: And i I said to him when I told him the story, I told him what happened, and and I said, like, I'm going to prove i'm going to prove you right. like i they are look This is my chance to prove you're right here.
Speaker: Oh my God. You are such a baller, Sophia. Like next level. This is like, you know, hostage negotiation, like elite level for real. for real So yeah, I mean, in the end, like a part of it was like, okay, like you, you manipulated me. Like I'm going to to manipulate you back here. But in the end, also, as you, Patricia said, like, it is true that like,
Speaker: to a certain extent he got what he wanted, right? But that, I mean, that loss I'm willing to accept um yeah for the fact yeah that like everything's okay and my friend is okay and like no one's going to jail.
Speaker: that's what hear What I hear is like, maybe you wouldn't have had to go to such extremes and like, you know, um, eaten that loss, so to speak of having the time with him. But you had that extra component, that extra variable of like, you had a friend who was in a vulnerable position yeah and like a true friend, you were like, okay, like, I'm not going to let my ego play a part. I'm going to ensure their safety first and foremost. And,
Speaker: It's really honorable. It's really admirable. I hate that you had to do that, but like ah my hat is off to you. But also keep in mind, listeners, like there is there is no low to which some of these individuals will not go. Like you think you you think you might put like the bar in hell. They will find a way to sashay under that. Okay. There are some people who just like, there is no ethical, moral consideration whatsoever, especially if you're a philosopher, because they can justify anything in their minds. Okay. Exactly. He just used this his like analytical skills to explain away some like fabrication and immorality.
Speaker: Yes. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, Sophia, I hate that you had to go through all this. um It makes sense for the story now. I mean, it's a fantastic story. Actually, you know what? I don't think I've ever gone over this story and I'm not going to, i I'm going to pause it here, but ladies stay on the, stay on the line after we pause it. Cause going to, I'm going to share a story that has a lot in common with you, but goes in a different direction. and And we'll discuss if that's something we want to come back on as a three sum again to discuss in the future. But for now, let's wrap this call up and thank the Queens listening. And thank you, Sophia, Queen,
Speaker: Supreme for for coming through this shit, victorious and smelling of roses. Well done, lady. Thank you. Well done. Bravo.
Speaker: Bravo. Bravo. And until next time, Queens, we'll talk to you soon.
