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Episode 427: Kelsey Rexroat on Dealing with the Monstrosity
593 Plays3 months ago
Kelsey Rexroat is a freelance journalist and copy editor who recently reported and wrote a brilliant love story for The Atavist Magazine. Visit magazine.atavist.com to read it.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
The Writing Process
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm not going to say I don't have doubt because that's not true. I don't have ah i don't agonize over it a lot, I guess is what I'm trying to say is that i I think I have such little time to to write that I just jump in whenever I find that I oh i have 20 minutes. Like I finished lunch early. I have 20 minutes till I need to be back on the clock. Like let's set a timer. Let's do this.
Introduction to the Podcast and Love Story
00:00:32
Speaker
Oh hey CNFers, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the craft of telling true stories. It's that guy who doesn't know how to move on from the conversation at the party, Brendan O'Mara. Sorry about that. It's that Atavistian time of the month.
00:00:48
Speaker
And there aren't really any spoilers to think of in this story, a love story, between the women Ashwini and Sri, an Indian and Nepalese couple who, against the odds, found each other, found love, and started a life together in San Francisco.
00:01:06
Speaker
It's a remarkable story told by Kelsey Rex-Rope. Kelsey is a freelance copy editor and also journalist, but she primarily makes her bones as a copy editor, having worked for the New Yorker Groupon. Rand McNally i got a map, got a globe.
00:01:24
Speaker
and Amazon Pay. She's written for the New Yorker, Lit Hub, The Atlantic, and now The Addivus Magazine. Go to magazine.addivus.com to subscribe and read their award-winning journalism. I don't get any kickbacks or use affiliate links ever, so you know my recommendations are never skewed, man.
00:01:45
Speaker
By the time you hear this episode, I will be on my way to Seattle to catch Metallica for two nights. Now that my voice has fully recovered, I will categorically shred my vocal cords again, showing us this episode and more.
00:02:02
Speaker
blog posts, my internet garden if you will, or at BrendanOmera.com, there you can subscribe to my monthly rage against the algorithm, newsletter, book recommendations, cool links, good vibes, first of the month, no spam, as far as I can tell, you can't beat it. Hey, you know, parting shot.
00:02:22
Speaker
for this is on the the relapse of book anxiety and paying for a publicist perhaps.
Exploring the Love Story's Emotional Depth
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, we're also gonna hear from lead editor Jonah Ogles about Kelsey's piece to get a little insight from his side of the table. And I see no point in waiting any longer. So let's get after it, CNFers.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And that was one of the things that attracted us to it initially was that ah it's a break from what we usually do. And and it's not like we're getting 1200 love story pitches a year and rejecting all of them in favor of Jim Crock. We just don't get many of them, you know? And so when this came in, and we're and I'm actually working on another love story, um that ah that'll come out maybe later this year, early next. ah So when we get those, you know it's like it's like somebody opens a window on a summer day. you know It's just like, yes, this would be so nice to spend my time thinking about this for like the next three months instead of you know some of the darker stuff.
00:03:37
Speaker
Right. And what's great about it, too, is that it shows other writers the possibilities. ah You know, it's like, oh, they they there are these other avenues to pitch a story of this nature, and they do take these kind of things and then they, you know, take it into account to, you know, balance some of the heavier things with something that, yeah, that is like opening the window on a summer day.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and it's you know they're harder I think they're harder to sell in some ways because with a true crime pitch, the the drama is inherent to the plot you know and inherent might be. Not the right word, but you know what i'm saying. It's it's built in and With a love story it may not be like some of that Drama intention is shifted into the emotions Into the emotional life of the characters and that's a much more difficult thing to do from a writing standpoint than to just describe You know the bomb would go off in an hour, you know, like that's
00:04:43
Speaker
If you're a writer who's like landed one of those stories, your job is done. You don't have to put on a literary writing hat if you don't want to. You can just like say what happened. But with a story like this, you know as Kelsey and I were working on it, there were moments where we were like, okay, here it here is a moment that really like needs to be fleshed out so that we get a better sense of the emotional landscape.
00:05:09
Speaker
so that readers are invested and care about what's gonna happen to this character as we move forward in these chapters. and it And Kelsey did a remarkable job. It's not like it took a ton of of work, or at least she made it seem effortless, but it it still takes an intention to to do that stuff. Right, so what were some of those challenges inherent to you know this particular piece with Kelsey?
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, well, i think I think the big one was, what do you do when there's a gap between what your subject is telling you? you know and and they they Both the subjects in the story, I think, were super cooperative and helpful. you know Sometimes, even when they're being as helpful as they can be, there's a gap between what they've given the writer and what a story needs in order to feel dramatic or um you know to just feel like there's some some emotional weight behind it.
Balancing Narrative Depth and Factual Accuracy
00:06:10
Speaker
and so one ah One of the last things we did on this once we had sort of everything in place was lean we really leaned into a few of those moments. and I i kind of went through and just highlighted like
00:06:23
Speaker
here's a place, can we go deeper here? How about here? What about this spot? You know, i just like any place I could even imagine um like adding, sort of plumbing more emotional depth, we I would leave a comment and then just hold her like, give me what you can, you know, like you don't have to fill all of this in, but on some of these moments, I wanna dwell a little bit and we needed Kelsey to sort of,
00:06:51
Speaker
put on, like inhabit the character's mind a little bit and build out what they were thinking, even if they weren't quite able to tell her exactly what was going through their head. At that point, you're trusting that the writer has a good sense of there's their sources and what they were going through and all the plot points and the details. And and that's where the literary part comes into it, where and we're asking her to to get into their heads and help readers sort of live that experience and in a little more intimate way.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes it once you get to know your your sources or your central figures well enough, it ah it sometimes becomes incumbent upon the writer to then to go ahead and make in ah make an assertion. ah You know, you might be able to, you know, if they're if they're dead, you know, of course, you know, you can make assertions on their behalf because, you know, you've been swimming in that life for so long that you can connect a lot of dots. You've been triangulating from so many different sources. um Yeah, I suspect with her she made some certain assertions as well, knowing Ashwini and Sri at the center of this. um But she could also go back to them to some extent. But I imagine that there is some authorial assertion that goes that takes place in the story of this nature.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's, you know, I would feel way less comfortable doing that type of thing if we didn't have really good fact checkers who, who went back because what you want is for the spirit of it to be true, you know, and like there's a line in here, we were just kind of kicking around.
Crafting the Love Story Pitch
00:08:27
Speaker
And this last round of fact check about a Sweeney feeling like she was swimming away from herself, um which is a quote she had given Kelsey. That was one of the moments where I'd push for more. And and so what Kelsey ended up writing was that you know she felt as if she was a drift in the ocean swimming away from herself and couldn't find a ah place where she felt safe or find a safe harbor or something like that. you know And the fact checker was like, hey, you know she didn't actually say she was in an ocean, she couldn't find a safe harbor. But the place where we arrived was that it that was though you know though she didn't say ocean and safe harbor,
00:09:13
Speaker
it fit with what she was experiencing and it allowed us to go a little bit deeper, I hope, ah than just saying she felt as if she was always swimming away from herself. And when Kelsey pitched the story to you, what was it that stood out the most when it came across your desk?
00:09:33
Speaker
hu Well, I mean, that that it wasn't crime, that it that it was something, that there was like a happy ending, that that no individuals came to great harm during the story was was certainly part of it. And I think also just the the sort of the tone of of Kelsey's pitch, which is very similar to the the story itself. I don't know how to put it into words exactly, but it it it was it was intimate you know it it was an intimate portrait of a couple of people in their interior lives and so often we're writing about people who are in jail or who have died or you know aren't aren't really available ah either to comment or they're available but what
00:10:22
Speaker
matters most is kind of their role in this larger like plot driven narrative. And this was just more about like to two people falling in love and I am like a super sappy guy who cries at commercials. I spent God, the Olympics are like a nightmare for me because i all those mom commercials just like dropped me to the floor. But, you know, it's that it's ah I'm just I'm drawn to that. I'm like, yes, give give me more stories like this.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, and I imagine, too, that where Ashwini is in San Francisco and she actively avoids looking at the Golden Gate Bridge because she wants to share that moment for when her partner and her future wife comes over to the States.
00:11:15
Speaker
ah that that commitment to and delayed gratification to share a particular moment with someone and the symbolism of the bridge to it really that really comes together in a really beautiful way.
00:11:28
Speaker
yes Yes, it does. and Thank you for saying that. I'm a little bit sleep deprived ah today, but that is absolutely that was 100% a draw to us. is like because that's i mean i've only I've only been to San Francisco a couple of times, but it seems like an impossible task to avoid it.
00:11:49
Speaker
this internal journey that she's on and this external challenge that she set for herself of avoiding like the most iconic thing in the city um in order to like prove something you know to this woman she loves. it's jit It's a nice moment. It's a nice story. I'm and really, really grateful Kelsey sent in our way.
00:12:11
Speaker
Oh, very nice. yes so Yeah. So yeah, as always, joan it's it's so cool getting your side of the table on this. And this is a really ah cool like in the in the catalog of a year of out of his stories. It's always nice to see how the stories like sort of play off each other and feet. Just the as always, just wonderful getting your side of the table and getting to unpack something that's ah definitely uplifting. Had challenges for sure, but of far more uplifting in the end.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, Brendan. It's always a pleasure being here.
00:12:49
Speaker
All right. So now we've got Kelsey Rex wrote. She is about to talk about her life as an editor and how, how she found out about this story, ah dealing with what she goes, the monstrosity of a draft, squeezing out writing in 20 minute spurts, envy over those who have a bigger body of work than she does. And of course the correct way to browse a used bookstore. Okay.
00:13:18
Speaker
So here's Kelsey. Maybe you can ah elucidate me in the audience about the secret to shopping in a used bookstore. I see you've done your research.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yes, um my secret. So I've worked in two used bookstores, Housing Works in New York and Adobe Bookshop in the Mission neighborhood of San Francisco, where I live now.
00:13:46
Speaker
And ah my tip is to not go in with an agenda, to be willing to let the bookstore surprise you. And if you have some like specific interests, that's totally fine to go in looking for those, but to not go in expecting to find a specific author or specific title.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's best to surrender to the environment and and get the you know maybe even ah have that whole idea of non-attachment going into a used bookstore. Yes. Yeah, I was always disappointed when people would come in and ask for a specific book, and if I said that we didn't have it, they would just leave. like That was the end of their time there. like There's so much more here.
00:14:32
Speaker
but and And I'm always interested in how um how how how writers or editors get into this morass that we're that we're in and seemingly locked into for the rest of our days. And ah so how did you ah yeah get into a life in words, be it copy editing and in the the reporting that you that you do?
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah, I'm primarily a copy editor. That's my my day-to-day is copy editing. And I've been doing that for my entire career for a really wide range of businesses. Some of my more recent clients are like Apple and Blue Bottle Coffee. And I started started right out of college with the internship, um was working for Rand McNally editing. Do you remember them? they They made oh yeah paper maps. yeah Back when paper maps were a thing, they still exist.
00:15:27
Speaker
I have an Atlas in my car. like ah you We have a United States one state by state Atlas. And ah for those ah for those times when you are in remote locations, like especially when I get into, say, like Eastern Oregon. So I live in Western Oregon. But once you get into the eastern part of the state, the bet your best chance at navigating things is usually with with a paper map, for sure. It's more reliable than cell service. yeah It's still a great idea to have on hand.
00:15:53
Speaker
Um, but writing has always been for me, something I do on the side. Um, I've done a little bit for clients, but mostly it's been something that I've had the luxury of doing because I like to do it. Um, and so for me, it fulfills a certain creative and, um, intellectual itch that a lot of, I get to use parts of my brain that, um, copy editing doesn't really engage. So.
00:16:22
Speaker
I like doing it and I think it actually makes it's not why I do it, but I do think keeping a toe in the writing world helps make me a better copy editor and the things I look for the way I query getting to be on the receiving end of editors and fact-checkers keeps me humble. Yeah. And does being primarily an editor and doing the writing, like you said, more for the creative itch, more a little more for fun, does that allow you to approach it with a greater sense of play and ah and less pressure? Yeah, I get to focus on stories that I really want to write about like this one with Ashwini for Atavist.
00:17:05
Speaker
it's It's a bonus that I get to write about stories I like about, but it's also a need because if I didn't enjoy the stories, it just wouldn't happen. You know, I'm very busy with full-time copy editing. um I'm the mother of a two-year-old, so that's a good job in itself. So I have to really like the stories that I'm writing about for them to ever make it anywhere.
00:17:30
Speaker
And with with copy editing, and I do a little bit of copy editing for ah for a publisher, just kind of ad hoc, kind of freelancing type thing. And um I'm not, it's kind of a a new a new gig and so I'm kind of, I'm in i'm in that flow a bit. and ah But here's something you've been doing for a long time. ah So when you're copy editing, how do you approach it so you know you're're you're catching the things you need to catch and you're not burning your eyes out and everything? that yeah How have you cultivated a practice around it, I should say? Yeah, you have to take lots of little breaks with copy editing, or you will stop seeing things, stop catching things. So yeah, just turning your attention away completely for just a tiny bit at a time after each project. And reading everything twice the second time I read something, I always like to copy and paste it into somewhere else. Like if it's in a PDF, I'll just paste it into a Google Doc and maybe change the fonts just
00:18:28
Speaker
changing it visually does so much to like make you see it in a different way and see things that you missed the first pass. So I always read everything twice in two different formats if I can. Yeah, that's a really, that's a great idea. And I've heard some yeah editor types talk about just yeah just doing something as simple as changing the the font. It does fundamentally alter how your eye sees it. And yeah, it's almost like reading something entirely new and wholly fresh.
00:18:58
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I've heard that courier new is supposed to be the font that like helps you catch the most mistakes But I don't know I haven't found any actual research to back that up. That's maybe just some editor lore Yeah, it's like the the baseball analytics people. They're like, this is the one that on ah This one catches seven seven times more errors left and something else. ah I go to Comic Sans. It's um a maddening, oh it's ah it's a maddening font, but that's the, when I, I know I compose in times and I'll do a lot of my copy editing for my own work in Comic Sans. Call me a rebel, Kelsey, but I go Comic Sans.
00:19:45
Speaker
Oh, nice. So let's let's dive into your Atavus piece. So how did you come to know Ashwini and Sri in the story? Yeah, I first found out about the story through my husband, actually. He was at a work event and they did that thing where you go around in a circle and you share ah your name and a fun fact about yourself. And Ashwini was at the event and she said that she lives in San Francisco, which is where we live. and has never seen the Golden Gate Bridge. And everyone was like a little taken aback by that. think You have to really go out of your way to not see the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. So he actually went and found her later um and was like, so tell me about your fun fact, what's going on with that? And she explained that ah her fiance was still in Nepal and she was waiting until they were reunited before she could
00:20:44
Speaker
before she saw the bridge so that they could see it together for the first time. And ah he came home and he's like, oh, you're going to love this story correctly. as yeah I did love it it. It sounded like something out of a movie, you know, this grand romantic gesture. And I was like, someone needs to write about this. And that's all I knew about the story at the time was this tiny little piece of it. So I got my husband to contact Duchwini to make an introduction.
00:21:12
Speaker
to see if I could be that person that writes about it. And she was very hesitant at first. She actually didn't reply at all to our first email. um I think the thought of sharing her story on a wider stage was understandably very nerve wracking for her. Beshwini didn't come out until she was around 30. She had been like living her life in very and very secret secretively. And so it was all very new to her. um and she had some hesitations about that, which I totally understand. um When I followed up, just to make sure at that point, she said, yes, she was ready to talk and she wanted to share the story and Shree was willing to participate as well. So at that point I got to speak with both of them. So when I started with this story, I was really jumping in to the middle of it. They were still separating or still separated. So I got to pick up the story from there and follow it all the way to their reunion.
00:22:12
Speaker
So what is the your initial conversations with them to get them on board and and just the the way you start pulling on threads to ah to start formulating a narrative? um Well, I first spoke with Ashwini over the phone and it was less an interview at that point. It was really just getting to hear more about her story. And like that's when I found out Oh, there's there's so much more to this than just that hook of waiting to see the bridge. There's all these twists and turns. There's these coincidences and family riffs and divine intervention. So at that point they were able to get reunited. Sri came to the United States and I was able to sit down with both of them for an interview. They were both just like so generous with their time. We did a lot of interviews and they were very long interviews and they were so patient with me.
00:23:11
Speaker
um I think if you put all of our interviews in a row, it would equate to an entire day of me just asking them questions from sun up to sundown nonstop it's not more As someone who's not like just doing like journalism every single day and you're picking and choosing the stories you want to do how have you grown comfortable or if you're not comfortable just comfortable say dancing with just the sometimes the awkwardness of just asking sometimes the most banal questions or for various details and
00:23:45
Speaker
And just keep pulling on those threads, even if you can tell your sources are like, why the hell are you asking me this? Yeah, that that first interview we sat down was they really just went through their story from beginning to end. And then each subsequent interview was we didn't cover so much new ground at that point. It was really just me going back to some of these key scenes and asking them the same questions, slightly different or asking getting more and more detail. And it is a little awkward to get into those hyper specific questions. it It almost sounds like you're, you're doubting their recounting of the story when you're like, what time was that exactly? Or what, what were you wearing? sort of Like, like in an investigation. And, but they, again, they were, they were incredibly gracious and patient with me and allowing me to get those details from them.
00:24:42
Speaker
um I think with Sri especially, she's just this wonderfully matter of fact and stoic woman and she tends to downplay everything when emotions are concerned. So I found it a lot harder to get into her head. And so revisiting the scenes multiple times and ah asking the questions in different ways to get a little more detail each time allowed me to weave those conversations together into cohesive scenes.
00:25:11
Speaker
And at what point in your reporting did you feel comfortable pitching um and then, and you know, in this case, pitching it to the activist? It was after the first main interview that I started pitching. And it's funny because when I first heard the story from my husband, I was picturing it as this um cute little feel good feature, um, just this in and out human interest right up. I was even considering and pitch pitching a talk of the town at the New Yorker, which is funny to me now. Cause those pieces are like 500 words and this ended up being closer to 9,000. So when I considered out of this, I had seen their pieces in the wild before.
00:26:02
Speaker
And I went to their website and I was looking at some of their more recent pieces just as a refresher. And they have some, some pretty dark material sometimes. and There's like, yeah, kidnappings and murder and crime investigations. And I was thinking like, I don't know if this piece really fits here, but I looked at their submission guidelines and they say they're, they're looking for cinematic stories. They're looking, they had this wide list of topics.
00:26:32
Speaker
that they consider and they specifically mention romance among them. So it really came down to taking them at their word that what they said they were looking for is what they're looking for. And at least for my pitch, it turned out to be true. When you were drawing up your pitch, and as you said, kind of at the start of our conversation too, be you being in the editor world and in the writing world, it kind of helps you see all so all facets of the the chain, the production chain, if you will. And ah so when you were crafting this pitch, you know what was integral to you think it being you know evocative enough for them to pick it up? The hook with the bridge is
00:27:11
Speaker
definitely interesting, um but then it ends up being so much more than that. It's this entire journey journey for every character in it, for Ashwini accepting herself for who she is, for Shri trusting Ashwini and going through all these hoops to move to two different countries, and for Ashwini's parents to accept their daughter, which was very difficult for them.
Incorporating LGBTQ+ Context
00:27:41
Speaker
So it was amazing watching all these threads and how they came together in the end.
00:27:47
Speaker
And when you're constructing and structuring the piece, and it it starts out with, you know, Ashwini's in a car and they're but but unavoidably going to be near or driving over the Golden Gate Bridge, I think, and, you know, she closes her eyes and everything just because she needs to, you know, keep that special and hold it and wait for it until Sri can come over to the States. When you're structuring the story, ah how to how did the structure reveal itself to you?
00:28:15
Speaker
and I knew early on that I wanted to start with that scene. know It was really just going through, it's mostly chronological, just following their story. um yeah this The harder part was deciding how much of the background to include about the laws in India and in Nepal around homosexuality.
00:28:39
Speaker
and because I knew I wanted to tell that story too and give that context because Ashwini and Tree were in this unique position of like living so many of these events in real time like the repealing of Section 377 and it gets reinstated and then it gets repealed again and like all of these events are having direct effects on their life so they're they're living through this history so I knew I wanted to weave that into um And I did a lot of research on it, and most of it didn't make it into the story. I think I cut out a lot of it to before I even submitted it, and then Jonah wisely cut even more of it out, so. He's he's good at that. if you Yes. Yeah, he was a wonderful editor, did a great job of pushing me to add more details and then knowing when to cut back.
00:29:40
Speaker
And for people, it it depends. Some people will read the story and listen to this. Some people will listen to this and read the story. um So ah just for you mentioned Section 377, just for people who are unfamiliar or who will need a refresher, just so what is that? Yes, so that was part of the Indian penal code that was created in 1860 and It's criminalized sexual acts that they considered unnatural, um which basically applied to sodomy and homosexual activity. It was, yeah, introduced in 1860. And then like over the last couple of decades, it's been it was temporarily repealed and then reinstated. And now it's been found unconstitutional. And so it's no longer illegal, homosexual,
00:30:32
Speaker
activity is no longer illegal in India, although um same-sex marriage has still not been
Challenges and Acceptance in Ashwini's Journey
00:30:39
Speaker
legalized. And at what point did just the idea of the bridge ah sort reveal itself as something more than a bridge? Good question. Living in San Francisco, I already have that sense that it's it's more than a bridge. it's You know, it's this icon. It's a symbol.
00:31:02
Speaker
of the city, it's a shorthand for San Francisco. And interviewing Ashwini and Shree, like seeing how they saw it as the same thing when before they even came to San Francisco, they knew so little about the city. Ashwini knew it as this place where all these tech companies got their start. And Shree knew it as more of the the hippie associations, like places where, a place where you can be yourself. But beyond that, really that all they knew about it was the bridge. So it really, it stood out to me as this beacon for them, for this, this goal along this journey that they're taking to try to make it to somewhere where they can live their lives freely.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah, and my and favorite passage from the entire piece, is it's at the it's at the very end, and I'll just read the paragraph and we can unpack it a little more. ah You write, yeah a blanket of fog hung low over the Marin headlands in the distance, and they zipped up their jackets to protect against the Bay Area's characteristic late spring chill. Ashwini thought about the massive engineering undertaking, that it brought the bridge into being. Perhaps with modern tools and technology, it wouldn't be so hard to build the bridge today.
00:32:16
Speaker
Maybe it would be ah even be considered easy. But when it was built in the 1930s, the endeavor had taken steadfast vision and unwavering perseverance. Her journey to be with Sri felt similar, full of setbacks, delays, and discouragement toward a goal that sometimes felt like little more than a fantasy.
00:32:36
Speaker
And i i love I love that passage. And to me, also, like you know the bridge and the engineering and the technology and the evolution, it kind of speaks in a way towards gay rights over the years. It starts small, but maybe maybe with with with vision and wonder and open-mindedness, it could build into something far greater ah you know going forward than it has been in the past, and hopefully more accelerated.
00:33:06
Speaker
in across the world and in India especially, it's a story that's still being written. These laws are still being challenged over and over and I really hope for a better outcome for the gay community there in the future.
00:33:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think a particularly heartbreaking part ah in the story as well is you know you come to know that Ashwini's parents are very supportive of her and you know love her and are fairly you know progressive given given the their culture and with arranged marriages. They like gave her kind of like veto power over over that. and um and ah she you know And she saw how you know her father was a stay at home father and her mother went out to work and they had such a you know real nice relationship. and you had like ah kind of progressive ideas and then you know when it comes you know when Ashwini comes out to them and her mother tells her father even though she didn't want to want to ah want to want her to do that um you know basically she yeah is met with disapproval and it's just it's such a gut punch and you just you feel so so deeply for her at that point and that's a you know comes at a you know at a moment in the story where you're like oh shoot like what's gonna what's gonna happen here and you just you really you desperately if you just feel for her
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really tough part for her and I think part of the reason she wanted she came around to wanting to do this story is she was so close to her parents, and she grew up with the model of their marriage as something that she aspired to. she They had such a strong marriage and love each other so much, and she aspired to that. But even when she knew that she liked women, she it wasn't the future she could
00:34:50
Speaker
picture for herself she saw her parents' marriage and the happiness there, but she had never known anyone gay growing up. She had never seen anyone living a normal, happy life in a queer relationship. And the only stories she saw about the LGBT community in the Indian media growing up were not portraying it in a positive light. and So she really hopes that reading her entry story can help people believe that there is a happy ending possible for them. And like, we know that representation matters and I believe that there will be people out there who are inspired by them.
00:35:28
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And I think your skill in the story and telling it is especially in building up her parents as what seemingly and and they grow to be very accepting, but you you kind of almost feel like they're going to be that way right off the bat. And when they definitely shun it at you're like, oh, wow, it kind of it ah It really cut against the expectation that I was feeling. I'm like, I hope they like I i want them to accept I think they're gonna accept and like shit. They don't and you're like, holy cow. I got how is she You feel you just feel the just that that desperation and that loss there's a morning there that you know, she yeah but that they feel free bolt for each other in that moment and you just know that that's happened to
00:36:15
Speaker
countless hundreds and thousands of queer people who have had to had that conversation with their parents and are similarly shunned and then they have to find a way somehow. Yes, and it's amazing that they they do come around but for a while there she did have to live out her wear spear like what she was afraid would happen did happen and fortunately they have come around.
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, and they they came around ah ah you know to to put Sri up ah you know during the pandemic and everything. and all this it's like It came out kind of indirectly to Ashwini in a way, like the the the full arc of the acceptance. It was like Sri became accepted before Ashwini in a way, if I'm remembering correctly. And it's just like, holy, shit wow. but yeah that's a what a What a way to learn of your acceptance and then to them build to use the bridge metaphor, bridges from there.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of the story is her parents, there they're not motivated really by even liking Shri at that point. They're motivated by honor, like they have this deep sense of family honor, like you're responsible for her and we're your family, so we're responsible for her. But then that turns into love and acceptance of Shri.
From Research to Writing
00:37:34
Speaker
And so as you're writing the piece and reporting it, or let's say as you're reporting it out, um at what point, and this can extend to any other piece of journalism you've done, but especially to this one, ah at what point do you feel like you're ready to start writing over the course of your reporting?
00:37:52
Speaker
i am a person who likes to gather as much as possible before I really set pen to paper. Um, so yeah, I, I do, I did multiple interviews. I did a lot of research on the Indian laws and all of that, um, before I ever really started, although the pitch itself kind of becomes an outline for the story. So that, that would sort of counts as pre-writing. Is that something you like to try to almost yeah tack up to your board there? as ah Do you like an outline? you know Something of a map in your Rand McNally days. Something of a of a map that you can that you can follow. um Detour from every now and again, but definitely something as a wireframe.
00:38:43
Speaker
I do, I don't know if it could be called an outline, but I make a very sloppy draft of everything. All the research I've gathered, I kind of cut and paste it into a document in the order that I want the piece to be in and then just go through the piece and clean it up. But basically let my copy editing brain tank over at that point and say, what is this monstrosity? And then clean it up.
00:39:11
Speaker
and so But yeah, I'll just put whole like block, entire block quotes and entire paragraphs of research. Just, I end up with a draft that's like four times longer than the actual piece will be, and then start narrowing it down.
00:39:30
Speaker
Now, when you're staring down the the barrel of a monstrosity, ah how do you wrestle with sometimes the the doubt that creeps in as you're like, how the hell do I get my head around this? This is, I'm off the wheels, man. Like, get me back on this road. I'm not going to say I don't have doubt, because that's not true. I don't have ah i don't agonize over it a lot, I guess, is what I...
00:40:00
Speaker
trying to say is that I, I think I have such a little time to to write that, uh, I just jump in whenever I find that I, Oh, I have 20 minutes. Like I finished lunch early. I have 20 minutes till I need to be back on the clock. Like let's set a timer. Let's do this. I think maybe just being on constant deadline in my own head it helps keep things moving.
00:40:25
Speaker
Oh, for sure. It's funny, when I when i talk to like reporters about that question, a lot of them just kind of laugh or scoff. They're like, I don't have time to have self-doubt. The deadline is is there to quell that voice. And then other people who who have a maybe a longer runway, or ah try to yeah our for lack of a better term, are more like artistic in their writing and really sink in it and swim in it.
00:40:54
Speaker
and that allows the the doubt in the the 2 a.m. voices to creep into the head um all the more ah which isn't to say it doesn't happen to people who are on more strict deadlines but it's sometimes that that deadline is just like you know I I don't have time to worry about it in like to your point you're like I got 20 minutes I'm gonna go and no doubt I'm just get down what I can and worry about it later yes
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, well, ah that's a Do you wrestle with a 3
Overcoming Doubt in Writing
00:41:25
Speaker
a.m. Voice? That's when mine hits me and wakes me up out of bed and tells me how bad I am and how the book I'm working on is is garbage and no one's gonna buy it and it's actually probably gonna get turned around by the publisher and I'm gonna have to return my advance So how do you deal with that voice Kelsey?
00:41:43
Speaker
but That's rough. and
00:41:49
Speaker
i I do feel, I don't feel that while I'm working on something, but as soon as it's out of my hands, like I've sent it off and, and then I'm like, I get that dread like, Oh, people are actually going to read this. Like you can ignore that fact until it's, it's out the door. And then.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, and then it's it's out there in the world, and that's when I start to have the self-doubt. Oh, for sure, because then it's it's up to you know it's no longer yours, and it's up it's in their hands for interpretation or misinterpretation. And it's like, ah, like that's not what I meant, and now you're going to rake me over the coals. Or you know if it's a something that can be rated and reviewed, and you're like, god damn it, like they missed the point. or Or maybe I did fuck up, and now you have to live with that. it's a Yeah, that's ah that's terrible it's a terrifying feeling, for sure.
00:42:43
Speaker
Yeah, I don't have the 3 a.m. thoughts, but I do have and sometimes I have trouble making it through a book because I'll read a really good sentence. And then I'm like thinking about a sentence I wrote somewhere. And I'm like, I have to I have to go change that to make it better. That that's really funny. Is that your is it is that when like the editor brain is ah trespassing a bit much into your writer brain?
00:43:12
Speaker
Oh, definitely. It doesn't always know when to stay in its lane. Yeah. How do you put a firewall between the two? So you you know, one's not yeah polluting on the other too much. Yeah, it's tough. I used to have a lot harder time with it because I thought every sentence I wrote had to be perfect as I was writing it. And, you know, there's the writer advice everyone's heard is to like write ugly. Um, and that's been a hard place for me to get to, but I do think that I have gotten there with my, with the monstrosity drafts I mentioned now. Yeah. It's taken a lot of practice, but I've gotten better at that.
00:44:00
Speaker
Oh, Kelsey, if you could see the draft that I wrote of this you know this book that I've recently turned in, like the early early writing. And I've been at this for 20 years. And it's amazing how bad you can still be after 20 years of doing something. it's's It's simultaneously encouraging and discouraging at the same time. It's ah it's it's horrible.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah. Is that something like, you know, he's just yeah you've probably been at it a so similar amount of time, give or take a few years. ah But it's like, are yeah you know, are you a kind of amazed at kind of how as skilled as you you've become, how hard it still is? Yeah, with on the writing side, for sure. I feel like um writing,
00:44:48
Speaker
maybe it becomes a little faster, but it doesn't become easier. It's it's always going to be you trying to pull the best out of your brain. So the best is is always going to be just a little bit out of reach.
Inspiration and Writing Habits
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah. And when you're comparing yourself or at least putting ah or trying to compose to the the ideal of the people you admire most, like who who are some of those writers and that you're that you aspire to do similar work um as?
00:45:21
Speaker
Hmm. I think the, I read a lot of fiction and the authors that always bug me that I'm always just like putting the book down and running to my own computer are this authors like, uh, Marilyn Robinson and Rachel Kusk. Not sure if I'm saying her name, right? But I love Ann Carson's poetry. Um, and they have such a, they're not what you would call like,
00:45:51
Speaker
plot driven authors. It's very like I read it for the writing and and that the writing definitely inspires me. As far as like nonfiction, like journalists, I used to be to work as a web producer at the New Yorker part time. And so I've read a lot of New Yorker and they have just have such a amazing cast of editors there. Catherine Schultz,
00:46:20
Speaker
Gia Tolentino, I've been following her since her hairpin days, RIP, the hairpin.
00:46:29
Speaker
And she's, she's now a mother too. it's I love that she's like, the things she writes about have been evolving as my life has been evolving. It's like, like, oh, we're growing up together. but Yeah, there's just an incredible amount of amazing authors out there.
00:46:48
Speaker
long time listeners of this show know that I started this out of a crucible of like resentment and jealousy and trying to metabolize those feelings a bit better because they were really just pulling me down into the mud. And and I wonder for you like you know you, you look at people you admire like that and yeah there's always a tendency to look over your shoulder and compare yourself to other people.
00:47:11
Speaker
And have you wrestled with that at all? Just those kind of those those bitter resentments that, you know, it doesn't burn clean, but it's something that always kind of ah festers, I think, in the deepest part of our our gut.
00:47:26
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe because I'm not, this isn't my full-time job of writing that i more and it more inspires me to write than the feeling. i mean I mean, there's definitely some jealousy there. but
00:47:42
Speaker
It's more inspiring and overall. Right. When I was talking with Hanifah Durakib about that, you know he he spun it in a way that you know if he's feeling envy or jealousy, he calls it more of a sister to awe. So he's reframed it in that To to be like oh you know i'm a little i'm feeling crummy about it but no it means i just i just deeply admire what they're doing and it's just it turned it more into inspiration versus. This this bitterness and you know that's a very enlighten way of looking at it and i imagine it probably took him years to kind of reach that point and maybe not i know it's certainly taking me years to reach that point.
00:48:24
Speaker
ah But it is one of those things where, oh, it just means like, oh, I kind of i kind of want that thing, ah but I just need to you know recognize and admire the people who have come before me, but use them as inspiration to try to put my own spin on similar work.
00:48:40
Speaker
and One area where I do feel a little jealous is like seeing other writers output sense. ah definitely I am not generating as much as a lot of people. Um, but I think the most important advice that works for me is to like not focus on progress, like not focus on certain word count every day or anything like that, but just to focus on consistency, um, just being consistent over time.
00:49:10
Speaker
And if you do that, then the progress comes automatically. Oh yeah, 100%. I feel like, to me, I'm like such a late bloomer. I feel like I'm about 10 years behind where like most people in my age group are. And I just have to kind of accept that and turn my mind to a more slow productivity mindset to borrow the new Cal Newport.
00:49:32
Speaker
mindset and it's like yeah to your point you know if you trust that you run your own race or apply your own acre you know over the course of your career in your life you know you're gonna look behind you and be like oh that that's that's a pretty big body of work but it in the moment it might have felt like why haven't I done more work but if you just do it methodically you'll look behind you be like oh wow that's that that's ah that's a That's a career there. that's that Those are things I can parlay into other things. That's a ah pretty nice yeah it's a pretty nice trail of wreckage I've left behind. Yes. Useful wreckage. Useful wreckage. I like that. You can scavenge for parts from.
00:50:14
Speaker
very nice Well, Kelsey, this is wonderful to get to talk to you about yeah everything everything is you that you did in this wonderful piece, this wonderful love story. And it's really ah i going to add to the ah the catalog of activist stories and yeah provide ballast for some of the darker things.
00:50:33
Speaker
that have come through, as especially the last few, have been ah have been bleak. And so this was definitely a bright light, I think, that they're greatly appreciative. So um just thanks for coming on the show and talking shop. This was wonderful. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great.
Podcast Engagement and Personal Projects
00:50:53
Speaker
Yes. All right, thanks to Jonah, Kelsey, and of course the activist. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and smash that subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. Consider leaving a review on Apple podcasts or a rating on Spotify just to help the wayward CNF or say, wow, I'll give that no name a shot. Got the first chunk of my final edits back and make no mistake it is i have been told i'm like this is this is it bo this is the final pass because after this it goes to copy edits and then you're hosed my words but
00:51:34
Speaker
And by and large, I finally crested out of anxiety and into the realm of excitement. The first time in nearly two years that I've been excited and not trembling. Then my editor was like, we gotta to retool this first chapter. you know First chapters are just too important to futz with. It's only a seven pager, but those seven pagers could kill the book for a reader if they're not doing the right kind of work.
00:52:00
Speaker
And after a long conversation about it, I relapsed into panic and stress eating. I basically ate an entire jar of peanut butter in the span of 48 hours. I drank like several big beers at a baseball game at significant personal cost and haven't been able to sleep. but The borderline insomnia preceding the drink, like preceded ah the drinking which I know makes me sleep like garbage anyway. And and no, no, the the answer is I don't have good coping skills. I didn't know what more I could do to this chapter so I started just re-typing it. You know, moving one anecdote to the top of the chapter that forefronts Steve Prefontaine in a way that it didn't before and then I started folding all that stuff into what's chapter two and moving some other things around that maybe this former chapter one would then just be an accent piece in chapter two.
00:52:57
Speaker
And the more I retooled that, the more the original chapter one just kind of came back into focus, which is of parts moved around, and then chapter two went back into its room. I don't have much time to tinker on this kind of, kind of shit. I was told that this is, like I said, the final back and forth, and then we gotta move on to copy edits. So I'm feeling the crunch. You know, the panics are back. The 2 a.m. book panics.
00:53:26
Speaker
ah But amidst this fury, I got the book cover mock-up, and it's really good. It's a really great cover. I love it. I had no input in the design, but I do i do love it, so that's nice. um It'll still be several weeks before I can share it in the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter or black Instagram. I just threw up a little in my mouth.
00:53:50
Speaker
The manuscript will likely get down to about 105,000 words or fewer, down from 160,000, so yeah, I'm pretty fucking shitty at writing books. I think I already said this once, but my acknowledgement section is largely going to be a litany of apologies, big and small, mainly big.
00:54:07
Speaker
You're trying to find photos still, get the rights. Thinking about the PR plan, like is there a budget to send me places? I don't know. Should I hire an outside publicist? Should I spend the five grand at minimum of book advance money? Like five grand is a lot of money and it's no guarantee that it'll be worth it. I could spend that and not be featured on any prominent podcasts or radio programs or NTV.
00:54:35
Speaker
Hell, there are dozens and dozens of publicists who reach out to me for their authors, and I ignore most of them. So that that's money that the author spent on these publicists, and me… I'm ignoring them. like That's a waste of money. And I don't ignore them to be a dick. I just, I can only read so much. And I only have 50 slots a year, give or take. 12 of which I reserve for activist writers. So any given year, there'll be about 38 to 40 authors and creators that can get in. And then a chunk of that is often repeat repeats. And a chunk of that sometimes is just magazine stories.
00:55:21
Speaker
Anyway, I probably get pitched more than 100 books a year, which probably isn't that much in the grand scheme, but it's far more than I can handle. You know, I can read maybe at most 50 books a year and even that's a stretch. It's probably closer to 40.
00:55:33
Speaker
For all intents and purposes, the podcast doesn't make any money, so I can't really spend any more time than I already do on it. It makes like a hundred bucks a month from Patreon. um But I spend the equivalent of a robust part-time job every week on it. There's no way I can honor all those pitches. I don't know how Brad Listy with other people does two author interviews a week. and ah Has the capacity to read maybe maybe his show actually is his job and he can actually commit the time ah If that's so but cool Let's sell that five grand or so
00:56:12
Speaker
on a publicist like if that equates to if it gets you on the coveted bestseller list. You know then that makes me just a more marketable bankable commodity could make no mistake when you get into this racket.
00:56:28
Speaker
you're like a you're a product you know and so it's like are you a you know a certain kind of stock or something and if you get on that list that's something they can slap on a book cover and it makes you more attractive which can lead to future book deals so is that 5,000 that 5,000 could be seen as an investment What if that leads to a? $200,000 advance you know then I'd be set for another four or five years so It's something I'll flirt with and well shit it Kind of sorta need to be thinking hard about this like now, and I mean literally right this second now So stay wild see you nevers, and if you can't do interview see ya