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21 How to get hired, and how to keep you hired
166 Plays2 years ago
In this episode of Dial It In, hosts Dave Meyer and Trygve Olsen interview George Murray, an award-winning author and expert in job transitions and employee retention. George shares insights from his books "Hired" and "Ignite, Engage, Retain" based on his own experiences as a C-level employee. Listeners will gain valuable tips and tricks for improving their hiring processes and retaining top talent. Don't miss this enlightening discussion with George Murray on Dial It In.
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Dial It In Podcast is where we gathered our favorite people together to share their advice on how to drive revenue, through storytelling and without the boring sales jargon. Our primary focus is marketing and sales for manufacturing and B2B service businesses, but we’ll cover topics across the entire spectrum of business. This isn’t a deep, naval-gazing show… we like to have lively chats that are fun, and full of useful insights. Brought to you by BizzyWeb.
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Website: dialitinpodcast.com
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Dial It In' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Dial It In, a podcast where we talk with interesting people about the process improvements and tricks they use to grow their businesses. I'm Dave Meyer, president of BusyWeb, and every week, Trigby Olsen and I are bringing you interviews on how the best in their fields are dialing it in for their organizations.
Mysterious Package: 'Hired'
00:00:26
Speaker
Trigby, I got a interesting package in the mail a couple of days ago. I waited and left it on my desk and then I figured you might need it. And I did open it. So sorry about that, but it's a little bit worrying. The book says hired. So what's going on? Yeah.
00:00:48
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I probably should have talked to you about that. I booked a great guest for the podcast.
Meet George Murray: Author and Executive Insights
00:00:56
Speaker
It's not about me, it's about the podcast, I swear. Oh, way to tread water. Where our guest today is the author of both of the books in the package. Hired is the first book and then Ignite, Engage, Retain.
00:01:12
Speaker
George Murray is our guest today. George is an award-winning author and it's based on his own experience, not only from the hiring perspective, but also as a long-time C-level employee. So George has also served internationally and also offers individual coaching and businesses, ultimately just a really cool guy. And so I thought that since
00:01:40
Speaker
He knows so much about job transitions and a blood employee retention. I thought that'd be really great, but then I forgot to tell you that. So that's why I got a book that talked about it. Well, all is forgiven. Great to see you. I appreciate it. I'm humbled and I am looking forward to the discussion.
Emotional Impact of Career Transitions
00:01:59
Speaker
Well, thanks. So let's start at the beginning. What happened that you got the gift of unlimited free time and no income from your employer?
00:02:09
Speaker
Well, you know, I tell people that career transition is definitely humbling, if anything at all. It is definitely, I think, a time for self-reflection. Again, the last couple of months, or excuse me, the last couple of years with post-COVID, where a lot of people have kind of second-guessed the road map. I found that career transition is a motional roller coaster ride, and you're more tied down than you are up. And so I decided I needed to write this process because there's a lot of great books on it, but nothing about the entire process.
00:02:41
Speaker
to the time that you land, how do you cut that time in half? Yeah. And I think that's often the challenge when you change jobs is you go through a grieving process because you spend more waking hours at work than you do just about anything.
Job Search Strategies and Networking Importance
00:02:58
Speaker
And someone that gets taken away, maybe through fault of your own, maybe not through fault of your own, what do you do with yourself? So that's a jarring enterprise.
00:03:07
Speaker
So how did you handle it when you got let go and before you started writing the book and you decided to create yourself a process? Cause that's kind of, you're a process guy, you're a chief operating officer. You've been in the military. I want to say that you have a fair amount of engineering experience. Is that, that's correct. And operations. Yes.
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah I guess for me the fact was is I didn't go well the first time the first couple of months I was very frustrated like most people it's one of the things that they don't teach you in school that they probably should is you know how do you overcome you know job loss and securing your next opportunity and so after you know probably a prolonged time frame I just looked in the mirror and said hey you know what
00:03:51
Speaker
I'm just gonna control the things i can control that's kind of the big separation i think people realize there's a lot of stuff out there you just can't control i don't know if i'm gonna get hired today but i can at least have gratitude for the things i do have and i can actually start to build on that you know even if you got a very very small network in your introvert like i was back in two thousand sixteen.
00:04:13
Speaker
You can speak to family and friends and then that kind of multiplies as they introduce you to folks. And as I said, you know, in career transition, you want to spend at least 99% of your time with people in jobs because you want what I call career cheerleaders in the workforce speaking your praise. Wow, that makes a ton of sense.
00:04:33
Speaker
So what in that first element did you kind of, I think when I've been in that space, what I did is sort of created a schedule. Yes. Is that from X to Y, I'm going to do this. From Y to Z, I'm going to do this. And then the other thing that I did was take personal time and get outside, walk around, do something else.
00:04:56
Speaker
Absolutely. Just to create a certain discipline and a cadence and you get your mindset on what you're going to do every day. You are spot on. Yeah, you're spot on. As a matter of fact, I call it, I labeled the day in the life, you know, prior to losing that opportunity, whether it's a reduction in workforce, termination, et cetera, is that you've left a structured life. You know, you got up a certain time, you did certain things. You went to the office, you had meetings, you had KPIs. All that is white.
00:05:24
Speaker
And if you don't put that process in place before you know it even though each day may seem like a month before you know three months go by and you have very little to show for. So one of the process steps that i help people in job transition is what am i supposed to do hourly daily weekly that moves the needle in the right direction.
00:05:44
Speaker
And is that all just reading websites and firing resumes? What else goes into it?
Automated Tracking Systems vs. Personal Interaction
00:05:52
Speaker
Absolutely not. You know, as a matter of fact, and we're going to client right now, uh, been out for, you know, a number of months, almost a couple of years and, um, over 500 resumes submitted, no job interview. Well, if you know.
00:06:06
Speaker
1% or less time you'll secure an opportunity through submitting a resume. Say that again because that's an alarming statistic that I think needs to be repeated. Less than 1% secure an opportunity through submitting a resume. You see them on LinkedIn, I'm sure you have in the last six weeks with all this tech layoffs.
00:06:29
Speaker
The national average to secure your role through networking is eighty percent of the time or greater so where are you supposed to spend most of your time.
00:06:38
Speaker
Networking networking for sure. Absolutely. Okay. Well, and I bet it probably compounds the fact that most resumes are read by robots now. And if you don't have it, I guess maybe, maybe he was sending out the wrong kind of resume or it wasn't, you know, readable or scannable or something, or it was just the wrong, the wrong algorithm was leading him to the wrong things. Right. So you totally need to mix it up. Right. Before you get, before you get to George, I think you also just shared something particularly revelatory, Dave, about the robot.
00:07:07
Speaker
So let's roll that out and explain to the listeners who might not actually know what exactly is that. George, can you illuminate that? The automated tracking system that all the HR folks love to hate and hate to love.
00:07:26
Speaker
I think it's a process in which it screens out the best candidates. And for that reason, that's part of major frustration with people in job transition, as well as people in the work environment, is that it's lost the human touch factor. And that's really what you're going when you're through the interviewing process. It's really trying to figure out, hey, can I work with this person? Hey, are they qualified? Well, the resume will tell that. Now I need to figure out, can I have, you know, can I go to lunch with this person after a really tough day?
00:07:56
Speaker
That's kind of all that process and it's not in that ATS system. Right, right. The scanner bot won't necessarily tell you if that person is a good hangout. Yeah, exactly.
00:08:11
Speaker
So I think those things put together, I think are, are, are shocking because I think everybody has sort of built on that framework of find a job application, figure out if you're qualified, send a resume.
Personal Branding and Social Media Caution
00:08:24
Speaker
And so what I know when I came out of college in the nineties and the early two thousands, I would agonize over every turn of phrase on my resume and I would go over and over and over again. But you guys are saying that that's not actually helpful as much anymore.
00:08:40
Speaker
No, a lot of the processes are really antiquated. They're old 20 years. I mean, submitting a resume is really not the, I mean, and I see that a lot of times, especially when I was in first career transition. Oh, here's my resume. Well, that's really not a great way to lead off. It's really to get and develop a relationship over a period of time. And the resume is really an afterthought.
00:09:02
Speaker
Right it's like hey just send me your resume i really i've confirmed that you met the expectations and i think you probably be a good addition to our team by the way send me your resume.
00:09:14
Speaker
Sure. One of the things that we, you just mentioned it with the candidate that you're coaching is there's sometimes, especially in times of COVID, a pretty significant gap in employment. So how do you share with people or how do you encourage them to share what they've been doing or, you know, to kind of cover that gap? Yeah, as a matter of fact,
00:09:39
Speaker
One of the challenges is reestablishing who you are in job transition, right? So a lot of things. I mean, my first career transition after the first three months of frustration, I looked in the camera and I'm like, okay, well, I hadn't very well in the last probably couple of years and I've gained a bunch of pounds. I'm not sleeping well.
00:09:58
Speaker
And now it's time for me to really focus on me so in seven months in my first transition i got out awkwardly walk jon started running and drop forty two pounds well. That's only going to help you physically and emotionally but you're gonna have more confidence because you feel and look better and you have more energy.
00:10:17
Speaker
Right it's really you know back to that day in the life how do i structure that and then how do i continue to tweak that on a regular basis you know every i had a regiment every saturday from seven thirty five day fifteen it was kind of a stop start continue my okay what am i gonna continue because it's bearing fruit last couple weeks.
00:10:37
Speaker
What am I going to stop doing because it's really not adding any value? And then most importantly, what can I, you know, out of the last couple of weeks of networking with folks who've actually been through the process perhaps, what are some of the best practices I might change and do?
00:10:52
Speaker
One of the things that I know that when I was younger and I was in that position of job searching that I really didn't have a concept of is something that I've come to learn later in life is what's now referred to as a personal brand. And you talk about that and hire it. So can you elaborate on what that is and what that means?
00:11:13
Speaker
Sure as a matter of fact when i was in my first career transition me being i would say maybe less knowledgeable of personal brand i mean i always thought the product has a brand a company has a brand but doesn't individual have a brand and ironically it does that's basically how you show up.
00:11:30
Speaker
you know, on your social media, personally, etc. And then how do you develop that over a period of time that says, hey, you're the person that I can go to if I'm struggling with my culture. You're a person that I can go to if I'm struggling in job search and I just don't know what my plan should be. That's actually something I want to tap into for a second because
00:11:54
Speaker
We're in the age of oversharing and we're also in the age of hyper, this or them and being very kind of anti the other side. And you know, everybody hates everybody now. Yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
You really need to be careful in your social media posting, don't you? Because you're half of the people that you're potentially going to connect with probably don't share your beliefs, right? Absolutely. It's a good point because actually I put, I pull it in the book is I actually was working with a client where they were going through final rounds. They were talking through a board and everything. And, uh,
00:12:34
Speaker
You know, everything was going well as you've probably been there situation. You're the guy, you're the guy until you're not the guy. And, you know, you just never realized it. And after doing a little bit of searching, realized that what they did in the final screening process, they went on all the social media platforms and realized that he had posted something on Facebook literally three years ago that just didn't align with the company values.
Post-Pandemic Job Market Changes
00:13:00
Speaker
Now, you know, as well as I do,
00:13:01
Speaker
What does it take just to turn around and scroll through linkedin for people that's posted the last couple hours? Right to go back three years and find something. Yeah right oh my Are there i gotta think and i don't know if this is true or not Are there services like we talked about the the uh, the resume robot I gotta think there are services that you can plug into that says show me everything that's
00:13:27
Speaker
from this guy, but I don't know, it'd be a lot of dog pictures if it were me. Funny pictures of my son, but.
00:13:36
Speaker
George, how has the job market changed since the pandemic? Well, prior to the average professional was taken anywhere from seven to 12 months to find an opportunity. Post pandemic, it got down to probably about three or four months, right? As a matter of fact, I had a podcast to help people in job transition every other Saturday for a number of years. And then in December of last year, I shut it down because anybody who wanted a job had a job. And then ironically enough,
00:14:06
Speaker
all these tech companies started laying off. It's like, okay, where's all that information, George, right? So I still think even in the last six to eight weeks, it's probably between three and five months to find your opportunity. But the best way to turn around and better your odds are creating what we talked about the day in the life, making sure that you have a value proposition over an elevator pitch, which really just drives me crazy that people actually do that anymore.
00:14:35
Speaker
One of the other things that I thought really resonated from the first book that I read called Hired was that you talked about the importance of networking and you even shared a little earlier that you are an introvert by nature. How did you overcome that and what can you recommend for people to network?
00:14:56
Speaker
Yeah i'm a lot of people including myself is that you know i'd rather sit in a room in the corner and not speak to anybody however what i found in a lot of the initial discussions was that's really going to be where i'm gonna find my next opportunity so i gotta find a way to do that and.
00:15:14
Speaker
We're probably all of maybe in the same age group where we learn how to swim by our parents picking us up and tossing us in the deep end right well that's not gonna fly for anybody that's actually an introvert right so i help people kind of you know wait into the pool and so that they can get into the deep end and hopefully the shortest period of time that makes them when the next role faster.
00:15:37
Speaker
Got it. Are there common places that people should check in with networking? Like, is
Effective Networking for Introverts
00:15:42
Speaker
it meetups or chambers? Or how do you encourage people to find those places to find the right people? Well, you know, you can do a search in any particular major city to find out the networking, you know, the meetups.
00:15:55
Speaker
I always tell people to try all of them because the few that work for me might not work for you, right? but you're gonna find one or two and I always tell people don't spend all your time there, right because I tend to people there's always the Crowd that goes in there and tries to get everybody's card without actually learning anybody anything about anybody and that's not working, right? but I say go out there fine and then just say hey, I want to I
00:16:20
Speaker
Talk to two or three and get to know these people really well develop the relationship over time and they may turn out as i talk about at the end of the book you're part of your personal board of advisors in your career transition process yeah.
00:16:34
Speaker
I have no shame when it comes to meeting new people, but it's also something that, depending on the day, I just maybe really don't want to do. The best advice I ever heard with networking is it's called the Princess Bride methodology.
00:16:56
Speaker
three parts to it, announce who you are, give a common frame of reference, and then talk about an expectation of what it would be like to work together. Now, why that's the Princess Bride is, you know, first identify yourself, give your name. My name is Diego Montoya.
00:17:16
Speaker
And then the second part is you killed my father. Give a common frame of reference. You killed my father. And then third, what can you expect out of our relationship? Prepare to die. I love that.
00:17:32
Speaker
Maybe don't go around threatening to kill everybody. I totally love that. My process is very similar. One of the things I try to tell people in your first networking meeting, and this is a hard thing with people in job transition, they think it's all about themselves. I got to find a job.
00:17:49
Speaker
And i try to tell people is that your first networking meeting should be split seventy thirty left the individual that you're talking to because they are honoring you by giving time because that's more important and costly than any money right because they can't get that time back right so i say generally get an understanding of who they are how you potentially can help them and you can in job transition because you got connections etc.
00:18:12
Speaker
but truly get to know them. Then at 30 percent is really to your point, who are you? That's the value proposition. Less than 30 seconds, who are you? Then more importantly, what value you bring to them or potentially maybe some connections that they might know of. Then the last thing
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Embracing Challenges
00:18:29
Speaker
is you're asked. That's one of the things I think I even myself in my first job transition, the first couple of months, I struggled with and I lost probably a good opportunity to really get the additional network connections that would land my next role.
00:18:43
Speaker
Cool. Something that I've struggled with a lot, I think is probably good to talk about at this point in the process is, what's imposter syndrome? I love this. I tell people all the time, be yourself because everybody else is taken. I think what happens is that when you get long in job transition, you get desperate.
00:19:10
Speaker
of sales are willing to take a sales manager role, right? And so I kind of use it in the reverse aspect. It's like, you know, you're discounting your abilities. I understand why you're doing that, right? But the fact is it's also going to send, excuse me, questions for the people out there is like, is this person really going to be engaged in this particular role? You know, because they can do so much more.
00:19:36
Speaker
So it's really important for you to really just be yourself and continue that process because you will find your next opportunity. And ironically enough, all the clients that I've worked with in the last couple of years, they've always moved on to a better opportunity. And that's why I always say that's the reason why the windshield is larger than the rear view. Just move forward. Oh, I love that.
00:20:00
Speaker
I like that. I'm going to steal that. Yeah, because I suffer from imposter syndrome, too. And it's something that I've been really trying to work on in the last couple of years. And, you know, I've been at my job for a decade. I'm good at it. My bosses are generally happy, but it's still every day. Sometimes it's a struggle to think, oh, God, what if people find me out?
00:20:22
Speaker
and you know it's just one of those things you just gotta you have to recognize i think within yourself and recognize that it's both okay to feel that way and also not really true at the same time. You know the biggest powerful thing that you can have is being comfortable in your own skin.
00:20:41
Speaker
And that is truly challenging, especially when you're in job transition is because you're always second guessing, you know, I'm 55, there's ages, you know, all these things that are weighing on people's mind. It's like, okay, what I've learned in the military, you got to embrace the suck, right? You just got to power through and you've got to be able to do maybe 10 times what you're doing now. And you just got to find a way to do that.
Combatting Ageism and Embracing Experience
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the last thing on the higher side of the conversation today I want to talk about because years ago, while I was thinking about us talking today, and I remember when I was a recruiter, I was sort of a weirdo in that I would always look for people who were significantly older than I am because I felt they were much more bankable as a potential employee because they just had a different level of work ethic.
00:21:36
Speaker
than everybody else. And they were overlooked because people were thinking, oh, I don't want to work with them because they're too old or they're too smart or they're better than me. You mentioned ageism, which is why I'm tying this in this way, because now I'm of the age where I, you know, 30 year old me would look at 47 year old me and go, yeah, that's, he's perfect. He's just old enough.
00:22:03
Speaker
How do people combat that in additional age? Well, it's interesting is that there was just a recent article that came out probably a little over a week ago on LinkedIn, of course, that stated that the older workforce now is really coming into their own because a lot of business owners are realizing the level of commitment that they have, the level of
00:22:26
Speaker
Dedication and they're always reliable those types of things especially in a low unemployment rate They're starting to realize that you know, these people are committed and they're gonna not going to be transitioning every six months or 18 months into a new role and You know that was been a struggle for the last 10 or 15 years is that hey I'm 55 and I don't care anybody to tell anything
00:22:49
Speaker
It's really how you come across. If you come off like you're going to retire in three or four years, yeah, you're definitely going to struggle finding an opportunity. But if you're ready to turn around and pull the ripcord still and jump out of the airplane, people want that. They want leaders and they want people that they're excited to be around that can help them and can motivate them.
00:23:10
Speaker
Right. I think we actually met each other for the first time inside of a fractional group that we all know. And actually one of our recent podcasts was with John Arms of Voyager U and he's one of the very, very big proponents of the fractional lifestyle. But that's kind of the entire point, right? Like we have like the, the,
00:23:31
Speaker
experienced generations that we're working with have an entirely different level of not only dedication, but a depth of knowledge and adaptability that folks that are brand new certainly don't have. And there's just not that deep of a well to pull from. So it's a super huge and smart play to find people that are just willing to do the work and take what they've learned and apply it.
00:23:57
Speaker
And by the way, John arms is a great guy. I've known John's for more than five years and he has helped a lot of professionals jump out of corporate America successfully. Great, great, great guests to.
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, John will obviously be cackling when he when he hears that. Yeah, don't tell him. Don't tell him. I want to make sure he listens all
George Murray's Books and Audiobook Process
00:24:18
Speaker
the way through. Yeah, I want to sort of close the book on the hired and open the new book, the next book. So I think it's a great read to help people who don't know what to do and who I think one of the things that
00:24:34
Speaker
you'll find if you're out of work is there's never a lack of resources but there's never a plan and a discipline because there's all there's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of articles on the top five things you need to do. But one of the things really special about hired is it lays out
00:24:53
Speaker
a structure that I don't think anybody who, if you're not ready for it, it's definitely worth it just for that. So where could people find copies of the book? Because I want to make sure that we plug the book. Yeah, Hired, Cut Your Career Search Time in Half is available both on Kindle, Amazon, and Audible.
00:25:13
Speaker
So if you're in the car and you just want to listen to it, right? Yeah And I wanted to ask you about that because I've never met anybody who's had a who has a book on Kindle Did you have to record your own King Kindle? Did you hire somebody? Yeah, I hired my I hired somebody and there's definitely people out better than there of course There's always the question. Well, it's not your voice George, but I picked somebody that was relevant and also inspirational and they sounded a lot better than I did and
00:25:43
Speaker
Wow. Amazing. Yeah. Well, I work with this guy who's got a voice for radio all the time. So that's what I gotta say. I got the face for radio. I wouldn't say that, but, uh, okay. So let's, let's transfer to the next book. Uh, let's, let's, let's close the chapter on that one. Uh, and you know, whatever dad joke you want to apply here and, uh, tell us about ignite, engage, retain.
Engagement and Retention in 'Ignite, Engage, Retain'
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah, so this is really kind of what I would call my signature book. It would have been the first book I wrote if you told me I was gonna write Hired five years prior, I would have told you you're crazy. But Ignite, Engage, Retain is really a culmination of the last 25 plus years experience and leadership roles that I've had. And I actually reached out to more than 30 CEOs, CFOs and CHROs to get their perspective. And I wanted to say,
00:26:36
Speaker
Is this just my perspective is this just a minnesota challenge that we're having is this a u.s or global but it's a global challenge of how how do i ignite my workforce. How do i engage the team whether they're in a hybrid sensor what have you and most importantly how to retain my best talent.
00:26:53
Speaker
And the thing is, is that a lot of businesses are doing it wrong. I mean, like we talked about the ATS system and everything else, that always has to be revamped. And it talks about in the book. But to me, it's important in the last five or six months shows all these technology companies were complaining about being able to retain. Now they're laying them off like crazy. And it's like, OK, you've really just tipped your colors. Right. Yeah. And that's that's really hard. And I think that's
00:27:23
Speaker
For me as a business owner, this is where I really devoured the book because it's like, what we need to do is keep the people that we have. And the worst thing that you can have is a disengaged person that stays on.
00:27:41
Speaker
So if people are just pulling the cord and we've had experiences, I have a client that actually had this experience they went through and they had a writer that was working with them that we were partnering with and they were on contract. This person was on contract and we found out together after that person left that they had basically not done anything.
00:28:06
Speaker
for the past month. So there were like, dozens of blog posts that weren't written and articles and all that stuff. And that's that whole quiet quitting. Yes. Right? Yeah. So how do you combat the quiet quitting and just the general apathy that a lot of people feel, especially given all of the
00:28:27
Speaker
remote work and stuff and all the new challenges that are in there? Yeah, good question. One of the things that I've seen over the course of the year, and you've seen a lot of articles that really prompted me to write this book, was that this lack of employee engagement and all these metrics. Only 16% of the workforce is actively engaged, etc.
00:28:48
Speaker
And so what I realized was is, you know, I've come behind, let's say less than desirable leaders and found that it's really the leaders that are not engaged. It's the reason why the employees aren't engaged, right? They're not in their office or they're in their hybrid sense, you know, barking orders from their home office, especially through COVID, right?
00:29:06
Speaker
You're not really actively engage in understanding what their trials and tribulations are in their aspirations and how are you learning that to the business goals and objectives so that you can develop a career path for each individual and you can do this right now that you know. Go on the days that somebody's gonna commit to twenty to twenty five years because we just know on both sides it's just not there anymore.
00:29:28
Speaker
But the fact is you can actually develop a career path for somebody that will stay with you between five and seven years and if you can do that that's a success as opposed to getting him to turn around every eighteen months.
00:29:41
Speaker
So you really gotta be out there you know one of the things that i did simply in during covered was i just hosted you know coffee chat morning and in late morning for all the factories that i was working for the response back was during after we came out of code very successfully by the way was that george.
00:30:03
Speaker
we not only understood what was going on in each factory on a daily basis, but more importantly, we spent probably 70 percent of the time to just how are people feeling? What's going on in your world? What's the temperature like in California versus in Boston, Massachusetts? That just keeps people engaged. It's like, hey, they care about what I'm about, not just a number. Right.
Leadership and Organizational Culture
00:30:27
Speaker
When CEOs and C-level people think,
00:30:34
Speaker
What are some early warning indicators that culture is a problem in a company? Well, first and foremost, I talk about the book is that the culture is the shadow the leader casts, right? So if the culture is not there, it's obviously coming from the top or at least coming from the top of the division or the department. So it's really important for leaders to be self-reflective.
00:30:58
Speaker
right and that's a painful thing especially when you gonna open up to honest feedback you gotta be willing to say thank you for the feedback but more importantly take action the worst thing a leader can do is basically ask for input and then never act on right and i've been having there and that's literally just,
00:31:17
Speaker
you know, career suicide in itself. But I think the fact is, is just, you know, having those one-on-ones, I say it, it's the basic stuff. I'm an army guy. You've got to be able to read something on a battlefield in three seconds or return enemy fire on a piece of equipment. So it's really got to be simple for folks, right? Are you having one-on-ones? Do you understand the trials and tribulations that your team is experiencing? And this is the difference. I tell people that there's nine different types of leadership.
00:31:47
Speaker
And there's also the difference between managers and leaders. Managers bark orders and basically push people, push people, push people versus leaders, lift people up and make them more successful. Remove roadblocks for them to be more successful because when they're successful, the organization is successful and you are as a leader.
00:32:09
Speaker
I admit that's one of my struggles as a leader is that I'm pretty good at the soft side of working with people and checking in and working on the easy parts of the culture. But what I do tend to struggle with is the accountability stuff and making sure that people are actually doing what they need to do and that we're tracking and measuring and improving. So how do you keep
00:32:36
Speaker
that delicate balance between making sure that people feel heard and cared for and making sure that they actually do the things they're supposed to do. Yeah, that is a science. I mean, we're in an environment now we've got five generations. When I was growing up early in my career,
00:32:54
Speaker
there was only two generations to manage. And you think that that was difficult. Now try to manage five different generations. So I think the most important thing is understanding the people's skills and abilities and aligning them to the organization's skills and abilities as much as possible so that they feel engaged. They feel, I would say, empowered to make the decisions. But then you've got to basically
00:33:17
Speaker
Ask them what i try to do is i try to create job scorecards for individuals so that they know that hey, you have to do certain things on a daily and monthly scenario but there's definitely projects and we need to have this one-on-one or in a team environment to see how each project interfaces but more importantly how we moving the needle.
00:33:41
Speaker
and it's your responsibility to escalate. That's one of the other things that businesses really have a difficult time is being able to create an environment that I can escalate without retaliation, but actually get action.
00:33:54
Speaker
Right. And that, that is just, especially for the more junior folks that might not have ever had that relationship or been able to, or encouraged to push back, to raise your hands and say this, this, I don't get, you know, they don't want to admit weakness.
Addressing Mental Health in the Workplace
00:34:10
Speaker
And so fostering that culture, and I suppose it all comes down to transparency, right? I mean, you need to be very clear with both culture and with expectations.
00:34:19
Speaker
Do you think that that was that person you were talking about, Dave, who didn't do anything? Do you think they didn't feel comfortable doing that, asking for help or saying something and then it just got worse and worse? Or do you think it was quiet quitting that you talked about?
00:34:37
Speaker
In that particular case, I think it was probably after talking to the person's manager, it seemed to come down to it was more of a quiet quitting thing where maybe they were just checked out and maybe there was some other issues there as well, like maybe there was some real depression.
00:34:56
Speaker
to deal with, which is an entirely different thing, right? So, you know, the age now, and I think this is a good thing, but, you know, when we started working, you know, the three of us, middle-aged, sorry to give it away. But we all have a little silver. And for us, when we started working, there was no such thing as, you know, how's your mental health? Yeah.
00:35:22
Speaker
But now, A, it's much more pronounced and visual in the society, but B, I think there's just so much more issues with social media and isolation and all of that stuff that it's just, it is tougher out there right now.
00:35:42
Speaker
So how do you deal with that? And how do you, how do you keep an eye on your employees' mental wellbeing aside from just culture? Well, you know, one of the things in the last couple of years, I think, first of all, a leader's responsibility is be a lifelong learner, right? And part of that is, you know, what I've learned in the last is really understanding body language because, you know,
00:36:05
Speaker
The voice can tell you one thing but the body language will tell you another you know people leaning in versus kinda laid back whatever check out. Those are the things when you're speaking you have to really be cognizant of the sale you know what i realized speaking. In this forum that you know sally was over there kinda looking off looking over in the distance and really not paying attention.
00:36:26
Speaker
And then making an effort to go back to that individual and say hey listen you know what i'd like to get your perspective of how that discussion went and back to your point of creating the environment i mean. We are inherently grown up to be you know don't raise your hand don't call somebody out don't get them in trouble.
00:36:46
Speaker
So you've got to be able to change people's beliefs and environment so that they feel comfortable with doing that. Right. And once you're able to do that and you can't do it on a dime, you got to be able to go over a period of time. But when people realize that, hey, I brought an issue up and it was resolved and it didn't come back on me because my effort was to either improve something or improve somebody's mental capabilities, stability, et cetera.
00:37:12
Speaker
I think if there's a genuine interest of an individual you get that power back and the overall organization becomes better for it. You talk about the book about employee burnout. What are some of the early indicators and warnings of employee burnout?
00:37:32
Speaker
Well one of the things is really just body language right maybe their efficiency is dropped for their ability to ask for more work or projects you know that sally is always been a player in the first project that comes up there always want to be on that one of the examples i use.
00:37:48
Speaker
in the book was talking with a client, they realized that they were in COVID, and one of the people that was on their team was always engaged. But recently, in the last three or four months, we found out that they weren't asking for new projects, et cetera. And I asked that person, hey, I think it's probably time to have maybe weekly check-ins with this person, right? Because, A, they're in a home office environment. They're not really exposed to interface, et cetera, during that time.
00:38:18
Speaker
I gave her a couple of examples to kind of get her back into the fold and the simple things you know like hey i noticed that every time.
00:38:27
Speaker
That she was on online she was always had this $9 Starbucks so I actually did door dash and did that for a couple of times just to recognize that and but just basically Turned her overall performance after three or four months of not being engaged. She was back in it She was asking for more project She was asking, you know, how do I get to the next level and that discussion between the manager changed for the better Excellent
00:38:55
Speaker
I've always said you never underestimate the power of sugar.
00:39:03
Speaker
It's the most addictive drug. Yeah, well, that's certainly true.
Shaping and Enhancing Company Culture
00:39:09
Speaker
What are some of the most, how do you gauge culture? How can you really get your fingers and hands around what your culture is? Is it measurable? Is it one of those things like the Supreme Court's definition of porn, where you just sort of know it when you see it, you know what it is and what it isn't?
00:39:28
Speaker
Well, you know, culture is definitely different thing to manage in every organization, right? But I always tell people is that if you don't like the culture, it's probably because you didn't do something as a leader, right? So I think first of all, you got to really understand your core values. I mean, a lot of companies basically develop core values, they slap them on the wall, and they don't do anything for them. You know, people like, well, what is it? They point it to them. They really don't truly live them and breathe them. So when you're hiring and you're promoting,
00:39:58
Speaker
and you're mentoring and coaching to the core values that you think were so important for the business, that helps really adjust the sales. I always tell people, and I've been going into a lot of organizations and improving and turning things around. I hate the word turnaround and I hate the change agent because A, no one likes to change. I love this because actually one of the CEOs like, we need a change agent. I said, okay, well, let me come to your home office on Sunday,
00:40:27
Speaker
and we're gonna change some things. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, right? And it's like, okay, well, that's how people feel, right? But I always tell people that you can enhance everything, right? Because enhancement is like, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I'm tweaking things over a period of time. And just like a sailboat, I'm gonna go in the right direction with those adjustments. And that's what it's all about, is people want somebody that's going to recognize their efforts and the things that they're doing well,
00:40:54
Speaker
Outline the things that they need to improve on and more importantly give them the tools that they can adjust the sales in the right direction. Can you share success story from a company that successfully implemented what you talk about.
00:41:07
Speaker
As a matter of fact, one of the tools that I outlined in the book and the terminology is creating a war in your organization. Now, not the war that you and I, at least specifically like I did from Desert Storm, know a war to be, but it's with all resources, right? So what we did collectively is we worked with the entire leadership team to understand what is the one big thing that's struggling in the business, right?
00:41:37
Speaker
And then what we did was we identified support for each particular discipline to say this is our focus right so their problem was is that you know they had probably two point seven million dollars in backlog.
00:41:51
Speaker
Run time delivery was probably best sixty seven percent in the last three years right so a not happy not not making existing customers happy not being able to secure new customers and what we were able to do is we were able to pull that team together.
00:42:07
Speaker
And in 12 weeks, now granted prior to this, this is three years of history that they never got better than 67% on-time delivery, and they never got better than 2.1 million in past due backlog. In 12 weeks, we went from that to 97% on-time delivery, and we cleaned up all but about $300,000 in backlog in 12 weeks. And they were trying to do it in the last three years and weren't being able to move
00:42:37
Speaker
So it's getting everybody focused on one thing and then understanding how does my department help this department and how does this department help that department? And that's the success we were able to do in 12 weeks. What advice do you have for managers who are struggling to create a positive workplace? First, either on the middle or the C level. I, you know, you talked about the shadow, the leader cast. I think that's great. Yeah.
00:43:04
Speaker
I would say first is self-reflection, right? Do a self-assessment. Where are you in your culture? And more importantly, where you want to be, that's kind of my why, is helping people define where they are and where they want to be. And then more importantly, what support do you need
00:43:23
Speaker
In each particular step and again this also may be looking at leadership right because you may have gotten to a point in an organization where certain leaders have really tapped out their capabilities personal capability.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:43:36
Speaker
As a matter of fact my first book i met a great leader when i called call the ceo and he was so probably says you know what i know that. My current organizations one point one billion i can take this company to two billion but after that.
00:43:52
Speaker
They basically need to find a different leader. That was so powerful, right? Because he knew his limitations, he knew his capabilities, but he was having fun in the trenches currently in his role. And I think that's one of the things leaders really need to understand is, what's my personal capabilities and restrictions? And where am I short? And can I get the resources to help me so that I can move forward? Because the leader's responsibility, especially as CEO, is to look out three years from now and say,
00:44:19
Speaker
It's great and the chief operating officer's responsibility is to create that road. Put all the obstacles, put all the people waving traffic and bringing in the concrete and everything else, and the people that are doing it every day have sometimes a difficult ability to see that three year. It's the leader's responsibility to say, here's what your role is going to do in order to get me to that vision. If you're not doing that, that's probably one of your biggest struggles in your organization.
00:44:49
Speaker
is how does my role in the organization impact the growth, profitability, and success? Well, I don't think we could have ended any better than that. So thank you, George, for joining us. I want to make sure that if somebody is interested in talking with you, they know how to find you. So if somebody is looking for you, they can find you. They can call me on the phone, 952-221-8868, or they can email me at George C. as in Charlie Murray, all one word, at gmail.com.
00:45:20
Speaker
And people can find both books on Amazon? Yep, both books, or they can get on my website, georgeclayston, C-L-A-Y-S-T-I-N, Murray, all one word again, dot com. They're there. Perfect. And the books are hired. Cut your career search time in half and ignite, engage, retain. Ignite your workforce, engage your team, and retain your talent. Thank you, George. Thank you, guys. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, George. And Dave, next time I get a package, just don't open it.