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87. On Loving People, With Soul Pod Member Thom
14 Plays1 day ago
“I’m only into astrology for the gradual accumulation of centaurs.”
Molly’s dear friend Thom joins her this week for a conversation about their friendship history and lore, and what it means to love people well.
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Hosts: Christina Bell & Molly Wilde
Music: The Confrontation, by Jonathan Boyle, licensed from Premium Beats by Shutterstock
Editing: Molly Wilde
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Transcript
Reflecting on Podcasting Journey
00:00:27
Speaker
lot of other things over a dozen years but not this yeah and i have almost zero podcast listening experience so there's no frame of reference that is very true i've listened to three whole episodes of this podcast which is two whole more episodes than i've listened to almost anything else I should feel honored. You should. And I i do feel honored. I'm sorry the number is still so low and it practice.
00:00:52
Speaker
Compared to the total number of episodes, which, to be fair, is quite a high total. Yes. This is episode 87. Excellent. Which is crazy to me.
00:01:03
Speaker
But again, we've been coming up we're coming up on two years almost. Oh, wow. Of doing this. Oh, wow. have aged
00:01:14
Speaker
whenever I hear the words I'm old I've picked I imagine that scene from Freaky Friday with Jamie Lee Curtis the mom who's like I'm old oh I'm like the
Nostalgia and Pop Culture: Jamie Lee Curtis and Early 2000s Stars
00:01:27
Speaker
Crypt Keeper
00:01:31
Speaker
which only as an adult I look back and get oh Jamie Lee Curtis was like the screen queen supposed to live young for quite a while that's probably some baggage in that but even but even when she was like mom age she was still like hot mom oh absolutely and frankly is still hot mom slash hot grandma you know that i have you know a wide variety of women that i am interested in but among those categories is the yes older women it's jamie lee curtis and friday when i was long young i looked at that teenage boy and i was like i get it man yeah
00:02:07
Speaker
Was that Chad Michael Murray? I had no idea. You think paying attention the men in that movie? I think he was. I think that was Chad. Yeah. I'm fairly certain that was Chad Michael Murray. fully believe you. But he was, you know, the heartthrob of the early aughts, you know, so. That is all of the information I have attached that name in my head. Yeah. yeah. That guy was the heartthrob of the early aughts. He was.
00:02:30
Speaker
He had yeah hair color. It was. I mean, his it's ambiguous anyway. Like brown blonde, you know? Like pale brown almost.
00:02:42
Speaker
Like if he was in the sunshine. If he's in the sunshine, it could pass as blonde. But like really it's actually brown? i don't know. Who knows?
00:02:53
Speaker
But yeah, he was in a handful of movies. You know, some with Hilary Duff. Some with Lindsay Lohan. yeah You're noticing the trend here. I do love Hilary Duff too. Oh my god. She's so cool.
Celebrating Friendship: Introducing Tom and Meaningful Connections
00:03:06
Speaker
um Yeah. Anyway, welcome on. Hi. This is Tom, everybody. hi I'm Thomas. <unk> You can call me either. I won't even notice which one you pick. Tom, soul pod member.
00:03:21
Speaker
And, uh, as you mentioned, friend of a dozen years. Yeah. Over a dozen now. Yes. We're, I, I'm going to forget the exact date.
00:03:33
Speaker
I can look at it on my phone. save it on my phone It's November, it's November 23rd. Yeah. Okay. That, that will be our 13th. Oh, wait, wait. 13 is a witchy number. you want to do an anniversary? you want to a 13th anniversary? Uh, fuck yeah. Hell yeah. Let's do it. Okay. We're going to do it. Yay. We'll talk about that later.
00:03:50
Speaker
Well, I remember it. I don't know why I remember it. I remember dates weirdly specifically for no reason, seemingly, except for they're important to me. But it was 2023.
00:04:03
Speaker
was the 10-year anniversary, and Thanksgiving fell on November 23rd. And so I remember, like, thinking, aha, I have the perfect opportunity to publicly proclaim my love and adoration for you on this 10th anniversary of our becoming friends. I remember that. and And I made you cry. Yeah. Which I love to do.
00:04:30
Speaker
And I love to cry. Sometimes i have strong emotions and I'm like, should I be crying about this? Do I have internalized patriarchy left to kick out? but No, you're just ah highly in touch with your emotions. wait No, that's what I'm like. as Sometimes I'm like, should i be crying more?
00:04:49
Speaker
oh is there stuff left to get rid of don't That's an ongoing conversation. That that is true. That is ah almost a bit of an existential question.
Astrology Deep Dive: Personalities and Life Paths
00:04:59
Speaker
But I was also going to say your propensity for tears flies a little bit in the face of your prominent as astrological placements. Because I'm not Capricorn. I'm not Capricorn. I know it's a Capricorn thing to say that, but like I'm fully out of arguments here. It's still not true.
00:05:22
Speaker
For any of my friends who are listening, who are knowledgeable of astrology and just sort of want to get an astrological read on Tom as yeah as you listen to this conversation. Tom is a Capricorn son Gemini moon, Virgo rising, and then also has several other Capricorn placements as many millennials do, because a lot of your Capricorn placements are the larger Capricorn.
00:05:51
Speaker
a planet the further out planets that are more of a generational pace yeah i know from the yeah animated hercules movie that those take her a long time to come around yeah yes indeed as with many millennials your scorpio your scorpio your pluto is in scorpio as is mine i think there's a libra in there you know what i literally have you on the pattern ah so i'm going to look it up i only ever think about this when i'm talking about i'm talking with you with me specifically yes um i have you in here and i will see your placements where are you there you are
00:06:36
Speaker
In the meantime, hi, SoulPod listeners. I'm going to an ad voice. I don't know what I'm advertising. I'm advertising something. You should buy it right now. You know what? It's emotional connectivity. That's what I'm doing. Go out and buy your yourself some emotional connectivity if I do good community work. ah Okay, go.
00:06:52
Speaker
You do not have any Libra placements. No. Yes. You have... Do you have Libra placements? I do not have Libra placements. Christina does. Christina is a Libra son.
00:07:04
Speaker
And I think she actually has a couple of other Libra placements that give her what is called a stellium, which is three or more placements in one sign. have... you have In Virgo, as we said, your rising sign is in Virgo. Your Chiron is also in Virgo, which is interesting. I have a centaur? I'm going to need. Wait, like astrology if I have a centaur. Everyone has a centaur. Mine is in Cancer. Astrology is the best. Everyone has a centaur. No, it is in Leo. Why did I say my Chiron is in Cancer? It's not correct. My Chiron is in Leo, which is a big old challenge because it's also my moon sign my Mercury sign, Leo. don't know means, but could
00:07:46
Speaker
it is challenging chiron is called the wounded healer okay and it is effectively the like to sum it up in a few words it is like cosmic karmic wounds wounds that tend to cross multiple lifetimes and it's like a big old deal to like confront yours like it's like where a lot of your shadow work would be occurring and in Leo specifically for me Leo being the kind of well it's a placement that pertains to creativity and self-expression and as well as it's the how the Leo is like childlike wonder I guess is a little bit of what it is
00:08:36
Speaker
the in you know pertaining to children in general, like makes a whole lot of sense for me that I would have Chiron there. In addition to struggling with it being so close to my moon sign, intensifying like all of my emotions. Moon is emotions, your internal emotional world. um So, makes a whole lot of sense. I'm going to do some digging about your Chiron being in Virgo and being your first house your rising sign virgo very like first house slash rising is like your uh sense of self and your identity okay so yeah this i vaguely remember yeah to me before about how this is why i don't feel like i have yeah your capricorn placements there are five that i can see here um we have obviously your son your
00:09:36
Speaker
mercury and your venus your neptune your uranus that is five so those five are all in capricorn for you um in addition your what is that one ah another placement that matches with mine saturn in aquarius uh very interesting kind of might have a a little bit of an impact there on the like discipline struggles because Saturn likes structure and Aquarius is like progressive like break all the rules break all the chains don't you know like just do whatever you want free flowing um it's I'm not going to say that it's like completely uncomfortable like Saturn being uh completely uncomfortable
00:10:31
Speaker
in Aquarius, but I think that it's not great. Okay. And I struggle too, as we know.
00:10:41
Speaker
So that is cool. For context, those of you playing along with a Copy the Home Game, I am currently trying to become a writer and it is very hard for me to put in enough time during a week or a day to get that actually moving outside of, you know, a full-time job and having communities people that I love and exercising enough and etc.
00:11:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's a challenge in general. um But yeah, and yes, your Pluto is indeed Scorpio. Same as me. And yeah, we mentioned your moon being in Gemini. Your midheaven is also in Gemini.
00:11:21
Speaker
And I really don't know what that means. I know what Midheaven... I can't help you. I know. You're you're the nowhere person here. ah Excuse the noises in the background here as I shift things around on the desk.
00:11:36
Speaker
Midheaven, my understanding, is like an aspirational placement. It's like what you are working toward through your life, and through your life's work.
00:11:48
Speaker
um please do not come for me if i am not exactly correct on that listeners oh i was planning on taking a tap uh but i don't really know how that translates as a gemini place like being placed in gemini so i'm curious it's interesting life aspirations for there to be two of me
00:12:15
Speaker
So you could just do everything that you wish you could do. Yeah. That's the best thing to control over time as a superpower. That makes sense. And then... Oh! You know what? What?
00:12:28
Speaker
I was wrong. It's... a No, for... two of your Capricorn placements, I had said your Mercury and Venus, or your Mars and Venus.
00:12:40
Speaker
i can't remember which. Remember what I said, but whatever I said was wrong. Your Mars and your Mercury are in Capricorn. okay Your Venus is in Sagittarius. Okay. I don't fully know exactly what that means,
00:12:57
Speaker
but i am going to go out on a wild fucking limb here and say that this is probably ah the source of your libido wait Sagittarius means I get another centaur right isn't that the yeah the archer two centaurs I'm only in astrology for the gradual accumulation of centaurs oh my god
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah Venus is obviously to do with passion, which doesn't only have to be sexual, um but, you know, can pertain to life. why wouldn't it be? Am I right? But it like also, you know, just just like whatever you have passion for in life.
00:13:48
Speaker
But it does, like when looking at like, for example, relationship subject matter or questions, I think that a lot of astrologers look at Venus, where it's placed and like, you know, what's around it and, you know, the relationship to other planets.
00:14:07
Speaker
and sagittarius i mean like any fire sign is a little bit horny and sagittarius is no exception to that rule so you know i have a lot of fire placements so it explains a lot about me interesting o But yeah.
00:14:32
Speaker
So anyway, that's your entire chart. Yay. And now anybody who knows astrology super
The Nature of Friendship: Trust and Emotional Growth
00:14:38
Speaker
well... Knows exactly when I was born. Thanks for doxing me. Well, knows exactly who you are as a person. Oh.
00:14:45
Speaker
But... didn't get doxed though. for that No. Okay. No. Don't worry. Fear not. Homeboy loves his VPNs. You're good. You're good. um But yeah. So...
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:03
Speaker
Astrology is how I like to, I simultaneously get to know my friends better by a like learning about their placements, but I also learn astrology better by like understanding my friends.
00:15:18
Speaker
Like it's, it's like bolt, like bolster each other. Yeah. And so that's why I keep your chart in my phone. Um, as well as a handful of other people.
00:15:31
Speaker
got my dad in here too, actually. managed to, uh, get his birth time from my grandmother a few years ago for no reason. Just like, do you happen to know? And she was just like, oh yeah. And so I, uh, put that in there so I could save that information.
00:15:50
Speaker
uh which is pretty fun even though he's no longer with us but you know it's a i almost look at it as a way to get to know him posthumously yeah anyway welcome to the podcast Tom.
00:16:07
Speaker
Thank you. Happy to be here, by which I mostly mean hanging out in your house with you, but the podcast is nice too. Yeah, honestly. And like, i don't want to say like overdue because all things in their time, but it it's been a while. Yeah. and we, I've wanted you to be a guest and, you know, told you from the very beginning, i hope that we can make this happen someday. And you were like, yes, absolutely. And here we are.
00:16:35
Speaker
yeah. Yeah. yeah and we'll be able to do this like well obviously you'll be back on at some point eventually we don't have to be here geographically like in my house yeah because we can do this remotely as obviously i do it remotely with k christina uh who in case it was not obvious to the listeners christina is not here um not here in the room nor on recording with us
00:17:09
Speaker
Better than the insinuations Jim has made. being incapacitated or incarcerated or on the lam. Wait, why is it better? She's dead in my version.
00:17:21
Speaker
That does feel meaner. That's true. Christina is neither dead nor incarcerated nor incapacitated. She is simply not here. So...
00:17:35
Speaker
so
00:17:39
Speaker
is the appropriately silly I appreciate it I forgot that I like cause this is and i haven't done like actual theater for years most of a decade I'd forgotten i was gonna just my theater persona was going instantly activate which is basically just my regular persona but the more on version of it true yeah
00:18:04
Speaker
but I deeply love it very much so I love you too
00:18:10
Speaker
We're just sitting here like holding hands as we like gaze into each other's eyes. Those of you who do not have the benefit of being friends with Molly will never know the very precise little pleasure that comes from getting her to make that little like squeal that she just made.
00:18:29
Speaker
That's how you know that like you have really made her feel loved because you get the squeal. I've never said that loud to you but no you know. really haven't said that out loud to me. Oh my god. Yeah, but every time I get to squeal, I know. I'll squeal more often for you.
00:18:48
Speaker
Oh my. You knew, you were bumping me for that spike. You had to know that. Yeah, I knew. I knew. It's okay.
00:18:59
Speaker
It's just fun to see what what you'll come back with.
00:19:04
Speaker
Oh my god. Well, Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit now that for the people who are not fluent in astrology?
Tom's Personal Insights: Passion, Opinions, and Growth
00:19:16
Speaker
I'm sure willing to. I don't, you know, no format for what sorts of things I should say. Yeah, i like absolutely. Like whatever you feel like sharing. yeah Okay. Hi, I'm Thomas. i love the forest and Roina Stolt guitar.
00:19:35
Speaker
And um I have very, very many strong opinions about very many things. Yes, you do. I have been told this is almost my single biggest personality trait is having opinions on things.
00:19:52
Speaker
It has been, sorry as I like adjust the mic over in your direction, ah it has been a novelty to me to witness a person with as many strong opinions as you have and has been highly intimidating in many many cases i am sorry we've had those conversations before i know it's there's nothing to apologize for it's just a fact well in the general sense of one does not have to apologize for one's personality of course no
00:20:26
Speaker
But I also know that there have been times where I am acting in in ways that are normal for me, which is shooting off opinions from the hip in ways that have no nothing to do with anyone in particular who's present, and they have also still hurt you.
00:20:39
Speaker
I think they've hit me strangely in ways that I didn't know how to react. or Or that I just sort of Like, the work was more... as i move this again... The work was more so...
00:20:54
Speaker
more on me to to work through why i was struggling with being confronted by whatever you were saying. it usually didn't have much to do with, like, the actual opinions you were expressing, but more so of the forcefulness of them and feeling as though...
00:21:19
Speaker
they negated my own my own interests my own thoughts even if i hadn't expressed them or even if they weren't completely like in opposition to yours like i was raised and conditioned in such a way that it felt unsafe for me to have opinions in the first place And therefore, like anybody who had super strong opinions, no matter what they were, like I said, no matter whether they were in opposition to mine or any relation in that regard, felt threatening. And it was it was an odd situation, like coming from you, was inherently a safe person to me.
00:22:15
Speaker
you know And complicated things internally for me where I was just like needlessly, and objectively needlessly questioning like how safe I should feel. And that was the you know the big red flag where I was just like, hold on. like We know he's safe, so like why... We have to... like take a good hard look at this now and understand like why we we're struggling so much. Me, we're me. it Like, you I'm not a multi, multiple personality.
00:22:55
Speaker
but like, just, it, it was the first time that I was really ready and you know, felt like the need address,
00:23:11
Speaker
address that reaction and in question it and maybe force myself to a recondition and it's still sometimes a struggle not just with you but in general but like i better understand it to the point where it doesn't blindside me now when i start to feel discomfort at strong opinions
00:23:40
Speaker
And it's just sort of like a more of this, like, you're fine. And, you know, it it becomes like, you know, they say that like your gut reaction is like,
00:23:55
Speaker
Or like the first reaction or emotion that you feel or even the first like thought that you have is what you've been conditioned to think or feel. and the second one is who you really are or who like what you really feel or think, you know, which is interesting, but I've in my life have found it to be true.
00:24:17
Speaker
So. Strong opinions from this one. Yes. Although, to be honest, like i'm I'm sure that everything you just described is a giant Gordian knot for you, and you are the one experiencing it, and so it feels like most of the effort has been on your side.
00:24:35
Speaker
I don't necessarily feel that way. and maybe me saying so is just me reflecting a similar bias. This is this is the body that I'm in and not in yours. um i feel like...
00:24:49
Speaker
especially with experience and the experiences that I've had with other people, is someone who is as constantly loud as I am about all of the things that they think.
00:25:03
Speaker
Like, how does someone get to the stage of knowing that I am safe? For the most part, I have to not be my loudest self in order for them to get that way. Because to anyone to whom, for any reason, opinionatedness i translates as that sort of possible lack of safety. a lot of those people just don't get to know me to the point of knowing that I'm safe.
00:25:33
Speaker
um And we sort of jumped past that by luck because so much of our early getting know each other was by message. And
00:25:44
Speaker
and a whole lot less of my opinion in the shows by message because I'm not sort of free associating like I do in in person conversations. And so I don't my my tendency to go off on wild vagaries of, oh, that thing that we tangentially mentioned, I'm now going to share three paragraphs of my thoughts on it.
00:26:04
Speaker
That just doesn't happen o by by message like we started. So you had a chance to learn that I was safe you saw as much of the the wild scouting opinions.
Strengthening Bonds: Communication and Support During Missions
00:26:15
Speaker
yeah and i have had a lot of experiences where people didn't get that from me and then I or didn't understand about me that I was very very interested in being safe and either succeeding at it or trying at it pretty much all the time yeah um
00:26:36
Speaker
and in a lot of those cases I come back later and wonder how did I get off on a you know a bad foot with this person or or a foot that has led to this place where they are kind of at arm's length with me.
00:26:52
Speaker
So I think there was some context that helped with this, but it it has also been a lifelong self-improvement project of mine to figure out how to walk the tightrope of not erasing you know, the the loudly opinionated thoughts about everything side of me, which has a lot of my favorite things about me and comes out of having had a healthy childhood where my parents were always like, what do you think about that? Yeah. um And so the tightrope between that on the one side on one side and on the other side, the desire not to harm or scare or hold apart from myself necessarily,
00:27:33
Speaker
um the people who are going to react differently to it yeah did yeah it uh as you've been speaking but also as i've considered this over a longer period of time i've sort of come to an interesting going conclusion but like uh that's what i want to use like we have i think i mean you effectively attributed it to luck uh which i'm not going to argue against that because i think that's you know luck in whatever way that anybody would define it i think it it is appropriate here but also
00:28:29
Speaker
So for context, for those listening who do not know me and do not know my history with Tom, when we first met, it was under a context of romantic interest initially, um which we did not ever actually, like, date, but, you know, we had a stretch of time where that was, like,
00:28:56
Speaker
the context in which we were conversing and you know flirting and we had a long period of what what would get called a talking phase yeah and then it was also a geographical distance between us anyway but uh it was you know that was the initial driving force behind like reaching out and actually like getting to know each other um and then when when It was decided primarily by you that that was not the road you wanted to go down with me.
00:29:31
Speaker
um in any other context with any other in with any other person, i would have, you know taken that rejection and just sort of been like, all right, I guess that's the end of that.
00:29:46
Speaker
However, you then turned around and continued to show me how much felt not only like wanted, but seemingly like needed me in your life. and in spite of feeling that like pain of rejection, i was like unwilling to just, you know, throw off your continued like outreach and and reject you in turn. ah And I think that that became
00:30:22
Speaker
like the safety that I understood was just like, okay, even if you don't want me in this initial way that we had originally pursued, you want me in general.
00:30:37
Speaker
i matter in general, in arguably a larger way. And that, I think, was a large part of where the safety and trust was founded upon for me.
00:30:57
Speaker
I think. I could be wrong. I'm open to being wrong. But it it makes sense to me. It makes sense to me, too. Although, you know, again, we're we're delving into things I hadn't necessarily thought about to this level of detail from your side of things.
00:31:11
Speaker
My version of those the first couple years is that Well, in general, in ways that that are were true of us and are also true in my experience of a lot of people I've met, if you pay enough attention to someone, if you pay the kind of attention to someone that you have to in order to accurately answer the question of, am I romantically interested in this person, you are...
00:31:39
Speaker
going to cross over the threshold into I understand why this person could be loved by others in any sort of way i understand why a parent could love this person I understand why a friend could love this person and so then of course immediately you find yourself the shoes of oh i I kind of think I am the friend who loves this person even if I'm not going to be the romantic partner who loves this person yeah um which is also why 80% of my friends are women because I keep doing a lot of attention The vast majority of those are compatibility issues, but not not bad people compatibility issues. It's just
00:32:17
Speaker
that. So that's part one of what I want to say. And part two is, again, in my perspective, i then – so yeah context, I am still a member of the LDSP.
00:32:28
Speaker
and The Mormon church for those who are less familiar. Within a little under a year of us starting to talk, I left on my Mormon mission. Right.
00:32:40
Speaker
And it's a large part of my perception of the growth of our friendship that I, you know, went to another country, was only really contactable by email one day a week. right and had very little time even then to respond to the emails that people were writing me. There was nobody that I could get to every single week.
00:33:03
Speaker
And you kept writing me pretty much every single week anyway with thoughts of yours, stuff about your life, much of it quite vulnerable. And um in a way that can...
00:33:21
Speaker
that can really only happen when someone is is someone that you who you who you care about is showing you what it's like to be inside their heads.
00:33:32
Speaker
You just keep loving them more. And it counts as emotional support yeah to to you, to me on this side of the equation, to just get to hear that, even if I don't have time always to respond at all or to the depth that I wanted. And so I attribute the loyalty that you showed over those years in keeping in contact with me in this imperfect, stilted sort of a way I attribute to that a lot of the longevity of our friendship.
00:34:10
Speaker
And by the way, oh dear listeners, this is how a good friendship works. It's both of you whispering thank you to each other over and over again
00:34:21
Speaker
Oh, fuck. That's true. Yeah, I've had that one in my head for three minutes. i was pulling up to it. It's true. But also, like, that foundation I mentioned, you managed to lay that solidly enough before you left.
00:34:37
Speaker
And I think that's the reason why. you know? Because by that point, it wasn't like I was clinging on to some sort of false hope that maybe eventually you might change your mind or anything like that. It was more so just like, I matter.
00:34:51
Speaker
to him why doesn't matter i frequently asked you I just like I don't understand why you like me you have asked me as recently as a year and a half ago so yeah that is not about us man that has been a journey in and of itself but by the way congratulations on it being a whole year and a half since what it was I feel like that's a good news for your emotional well-being and progress that's gone wrong and thank you you're welcome Oh my god.
00:35:23
Speaker
But like, for real, you know, whether or not I could understand it, I had to accept it, you know? And you were not only just compelling enough of a person in general, but also just like, there was this magnetic draw, this pull between us, I feel,
00:35:49
Speaker
that Made it so I knew, like, even if I don't fully grasp the depth or the extent of this or the reasons why, like, this is a relationship to nourish.
00:36:07
Speaker
And You... you I understand why you viewed my continued like loyalty and correspondence while you were on your mission, a like why you viewed that as like doing the heavy lifting almost.
00:36:28
Speaker
But ah for me, it wasn't heavy lifting. it was It was really quite like, I could have written you more, frankly. But it was just like, it was things I wanted to say to you, stuff that I would have texted you if I had had the ability to.
00:36:45
Speaker
And just stuff that I was just grateful to have somebody to say any of it to, you know? and was and I had way more time on my hands, could email you at any point every week and understood that like you were going to have limited time to actually like read and respond, but You know, I was just sort of like, he'll, you know, he'll be able to read it regardless, even if he can't respond. And I trust and believe in his interest and and care for me enough that he wants to hear what I have to say and that he's not going to reach the end of my email and be like, well, that was a fucking waste of time. so it was just a matter of like, this is all like subconscious thought too, by the way.
00:37:33
Speaker
Like, as I was, you know, continuing to keep up corresponding and uh you know toward the end of your mission i was just like obviously really looking forward to being able to like text and call you again but also to be able to hang out in person eventually because we were still technically geographically separate but fuck the way that it was like the best day of my like
00:38:05
Speaker
year in 2016 when out of nowhere you text me and you're just like hi because I didn't know the exact day I think that you were flying home and exactly when you would be right and I didn't know exactly when you'd have like access to your phone again and so i just didn't know i was like at some some point eventually soon to sort of check an email because I expected probably to hear you hear from you by email sooner than text but it was just a delightful a delightful surprise and made me really happy and uh yeah and so both of our yeah uh commentaries or interpretations of our early friendship are therefore compatible but these things work together i agree um
00:39:01
Speaker
You know me and my my how my worldview boils down to everything is a choice and almost every choice matters.
00:39:09
Speaker
I do think it is worth noting that I have shown to other people what I showed to you and had them rejected. I have had them not choose, oh, I matter to this person and I will invest back.
00:39:26
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I have had people choose, wow, this this person, he communicates that I matter to him. i don't know why, or I think that's creepy. Or he doesn't matter as much to me as as I seem to matter to him.
00:39:42
Speaker
and I'm not interested in changing that or and experimenting with a version of of things which in which I try out a different sort of relationship.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I hope you know you and listeners can tell that i'm this is a much broader net that I'm throwing relationally than just romance or anything. yeah There was, we can probably use her and say as an example, because she'll probably never hear this, there's a woman that I met originally in middle school, who I thought was pretty cool. In the middle school, one of my best friends had a crush on her.
00:40:17
Speaker
So, of course, you didn't get to think about someone like that as a romantic option. um but we had a really fun time sitting next to each other at the spelling bee and making smart remarks about everything at spelling bee blah blah i had you know fun experiences with this girl in middle school she goes to a different high school um i keep in some amount of contact but all of the contact is motivated by me it's always me reaching out um at one point in all of this.
00:40:45
Speaker
She, you know, one of the other conversations I start with her, she posts on Twitter, guys, help. I think the Mormon wants to marry me. He does not know what this point that i can see for twitter
00:40:57
Speaker
um And so I had to bring that up within a couple months. It's emblematic of the entire rest of the interaction, though. Like, I still have DM avenues to this person. result technically, i have this person's phone number. we don't use the phone numbers anymore. we only very occasionally DM, and it's always so motivated by me. And none of this is really about the fact that she moved across the country. Because, again, distance doesn't, as you and I showed, just distance doesn't always stop it.
Choices and Growth in Friendship Dynamics
00:41:21
Speaker
But this is someone to whom I made every overture of friendship And repeatedly, as in the, oh no, the woman wants to marry me case, repeatedly directly said, I am not romantically interested in you. I just like who you are and I'd like to know you.
00:41:36
Speaker
And she was not willing, either not willing to believe me on that or not willing to return the relational efforts that would make it reciprocal. yeah Those choices happen too. And they they happen with some frequency to me since I, you know, me and my good childhood,
00:41:53
Speaker
we're sort of ready to be pals with anybody cool. Yeah. And so I, you know, I'm just setting her up here as a little bit of a foil to you to point out the choices that you did make that in my biased point of view here, I think are better choices. Yeah. But also like whether or not it's like to the end result of being your friend, like better choices for the fact that like,
00:42:21
Speaker
I was making the correct assumptions about you and, and like understanding your motivations, understanding like your interests to a degree, you know, even if I couldn't understand why. um And understanding that like, like there's like a, just an inherent level of kindness, the kindness that like should be shown.
00:42:50
Speaker
But also like when it came to you specifically, was like, of course, like, why would I, why would I do anything different or anything less, you know, in in dealing with you?
00:43:05
Speaker
yeah. All of that can be true. And, and you know, it it's but it is part of my point here. Yeah. When the choice moment comes, these are the sorts of choices that you make. And that is part of why I love you. um But, you know, it it is still at some level a choice to believe someone when they show you who they are. Yeah.
00:43:28
Speaker
So I can... at least when willing to flatter myself, believe that your characterization of me is right and also still know that it was a choice on your part to say yes to what you thought you were saying.
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:40
Speaker
I also inherently believe that I am objectively correct about you. And i have I have gone above and beyond to a lot of people who have viewed you in a very dramatically different and often malignant light yeah and been like you are objectively wrong and you're making a mistake to give some light context on that oh gentle to listeners um there was about a decade ago now almost yeah um
00:44:14
Speaker
I was in a pretty bad emotional abusive relationship that became a set of relatively self-serving rumors after work on the part of the person I broke up with. Yeah. and That permeated a community that you and i the community that you and I initially like first encountered each other. Yeah.
00:44:37
Speaker
Yeah. The one that put us in front of each other and I first start talking to become friends. And Molly did a lot of, defense work for me for a while against a lot of people who have decided to leave my accent on that.
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah. And regrettably, as a result, was also rejected from that community, which I had pretty much outgrown by that point anyhow. Me too, although for different reasons. Yeah. um I don't regret it.
00:45:07
Speaker
Because, frankly, the people who rejected me after that next you say you know the way you phrase it i thought was perfect and it applies here too when someone shows you who they are believe them yeah that choice will save you in many directions yeah that absolutely like these people showed me who they were and i chose to believe them because by mean like not like i had much of choice anyway because they were you know, kicking me out or rejecting me in whatever context one may think of.
00:45:43
Speaker
But um I just, I understood, i was like, these people, this is this is a toxic situation. Like, not just your ex and the rumors that were spread, but like, the people who were accepting, believing, and perpetuating the issue so this is a complete tangent but it feels important to me to note that phrase about know believing someone when they show you who you are i'm taking that from someone and i don't remember who but i do think i remember that she's a black woman so i especially don't want to be like pretending like it's my phrase it's not no it's um it's what i've definitely heard before from probably more than one place okay
00:46:33
Speaker
If you like that phrase, please Google it and credit the person who originally said it.
Soul Connections: Reincarnation and Spiritual Bonds
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. But yeah.
00:46:44
Speaker
And you know we've sort of we've been a little bit dancing around it, but where we're going to stop dancing and stand right in front of it right now.
00:46:55
Speaker
That magnetism that has pulled us to each other in spite of you know, many potential diverging paths that could have, like, sent us in different directions.
00:47:12
Speaker
I attribute that to your being in my soul pod. And, you know, I told you that that was something that I wanted to make sure to talk about. So here we are, 48 minutes in. It was, in fact, her entire podcast appearance. I was saying, we're talking about soul pods.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yeah. And it's something that like I think that I understood about you before I understood or like had the word for a soul pod, like what you know what it it means or what it is.
00:47:45
Speaker
like I understood that like we have known each other in previous lives. you know We have been you know this close and closer in previous lives and this important to each other you know as a result. And that to me...
00:48:01
Speaker
is the clear definition of like a soul plot member and that magnetism that doesn't have a very clear direct explanation for like you know events that occur in your current lifetime like that is the other factor where i'm just like for one reason or another man we just kept choosing each other And that tells me all that I need to know.
00:48:35
Speaker
Like, you know, done deal. It's for sure a thing. You know? And like, you to what extent I don't 100% know or don't want to just sort of try to say for you, like you believe the same idea, you have the same like understanding of our like souls having a shared history. There is a lot of, it's it's a different, it's a slightly different version, I think.
00:49:12
Speaker
Because you know For me, the jury's just out on things like, you knowqui is our first life or not? yeah I'm very open to the the notion of reincarnation. There are a lot of things I personally like about it. It would solve you know some questions and some just sort of...
00:49:34
Speaker
i gently, cheerfully empty holes in my understanding of of cosmology and the universe. um So I have not only nothing against it, but rather, in fact, some some things for it. yeah And it is also still a jury's out for me.
00:49:53
Speaker
And as I said earlier, for me, like everything, literally everything is about human choice. So when I say that...
00:50:06
Speaker
There is the there's no more or less in this concept for me than people making choices consistently over time. And yes, maybe that time is longer than just this one life.
00:50:19
Speaker
And yes, maybe those choices create some sort of connection on a deeper, dark energy is sort of a level that we don't understand yet. All of those are maybes that i'm very open to, but I stop at the maybe.
00:50:38
Speaker
i
00:50:41
Speaker
I don't think it is long or a problem for people, when possible, and I wish it were possible for more of us more often, to make connections that feel this deep on the first try.
00:50:56
Speaker
So technically also there is nothing in my worldview against you and I being new to each other. Right, yeah. But it's a whole lot of empty space with a whole lot of rather fun, interesting maybes for me. And I don't want to make deeper statements than that about it, except this.
00:51:19
Speaker
I know the kind of thing it means for you to tell me I love you through the words SoulPod. And on that level, I understand it completely. And I return it to you completely. I love you too.
00:51:39
Speaker
I wasn't going for the squeal that time. i was going the truth, but I'm glad it landed like that. Well, I have succeeded in making you cry again. And by I, I mean you kind of talked yourself into it, but even still.
00:51:54
Speaker
This is cognitive. Last time I thought about this was like two weeks ago, and i also cried then. I went to the local elementary school talent show for reasons that to avoid doxing myself we will not go into, but I was in fact invited to this talent show.
00:52:09
Speaker
and uh and i i sat there and wept because of all of these young kids trying things out on stage for the first time um and how outsizedly impactful those moments are going to be on them as they continue to make the choices that will shape who they are and i could not get over to holiness of the very ground upon which those moments could happen i even if it were possible to walk out into the forest and not already feel like you were in a sacred space yeah the earth would become sacred for the sheer weight of the choices that are made here yeah um so yeah i cry often and easily about important things and it's often this one it's often
00:53:06
Speaker
in awe of single good choice
00:53:12
Speaker
yeah
00:53:15
Speaker
God, you put that so well. Thank
00:53:20
Speaker
Like, truly, though. like i Well, it's halfway to a poem, with my friend. That's part one. I keep thinking about it. Yes, another thing about Tom is he is an extraordinarily talented poet.
00:53:37
Speaker
And there is currently only one of mine that you can read on the internet. If you want to read it, you can. It's called The Zion That Comes, and it's out on Wayfair. I feel weird about it.
00:53:49
Speaker
Plugging yourself? Plugging my work in public. Yeah. The wider website isn't even up yet, but, you know, yeah I should probably switch. Hopefully, eventually, there'll more information. Yeah. Anyway, let's keep talking mess about something else.
00:54:02
Speaker
No, but, like, I'm grateful for your openness with regards to the concept of a soul pod. Even if you don't, you know, as you say, the jury's still out on...
00:54:14
Speaker
you know your own views and belief system compatibility with that concept um because yeah like for myself i absolutely believe in reincarnation and i am comfortable with the like ability to make that statement without having like a full complete explanation as to how it works you know i don't think anybody on this planet fully can make that sort of a claim and nor should they because the point is not that we get hyper focused on a how ah how that all works because what we're here to do is different and more important work in my opinion um but
00:55:07
Speaker
You know, it's important for me to, like, understand these kinds of connections for what they are.
00:55:18
Speaker
i don't have a reason why that's so important to me. Other than that, just like, it it has become clear, obviously, for a reason.
00:55:29
Speaker
And so I'm just, like, taking that thread and and tugging it and seeing how far it goes. Yeah. And, you know, the fact that, like, I have so many people in my life and that so many, like, you know, offhand for people that i know I've shared multiple lifetimes with.
00:55:51
Speaker
But, like, certainly there are more, but, like, off the top of my head, that feels like a lot for someone to be able to, like, fully identify and recognize.
00:56:07
Speaker
So I'd say that's a lot. and And, you know, it's just like because of that, the the uniqueness of that experience, being able to confidently say that is not something that everybody, you know, feels or encounters even on a daily basis.
00:56:27
Speaker
Like, clearly there's a reason for it There's a reason that need to stay conscious of it and...
00:56:38
Speaker
have gratitude for it and and you're one goddamn you are one that's true it's part and parcel of paying attention to the things that matter i think to want explanations for them yeah um
00:57:03
Speaker
I end up in weird all over the place sorts of positions on this because there plenty of times when I feel like, especially other members of my own religion, are not asking enough why questions yeah like that about the things that they purport to care about.
00:57:19
Speaker
But also, you know, when I go about asking why questions, only some of them are ever answerable. and And in the end, I feel that the process of doing the whys and the wanderings that the whys will lead you to a lot more important than than finding any particular explanation, who which is why you can have someone like me who ends up in this weird position of being very opinionated about very about a whole lot of things, and also mostly comfortable with a whole lot of maybes.
00:57:53
Speaker
Which I think is a rare thing for people like exploring, who are even willing to explore spirituality like a lot of people are not comfortable with any sort of maybe yeah and i think that's very i think that's a intrinsically like important uh mountain to climb in in spiritual exploration yeah and weirdly enough i'm about to say something very lds here but i mean it in a different way okay when i go to church i would i would hear you know that expressed and then hear you hear someone say well you just you know you gotta to you gotta to focus on the things that are most important and that you know are most true
00:58:38
Speaker
And when they say that, what they mean is go home read your scriptures. And when I say it, what I mean is go out and love someone past your or their ability to fully comprehend what's happening.
00:58:51
Speaker
And I actually don't need there to be anything. Everything else could be in the maybe category except for that, and we'd be fine in the end. Yeah. As long as we kept doing that. Yeah.
00:59:06
Speaker
That I feel is
00:59:11
Speaker
basically the foundation of your faith.
00:59:15
Speaker
Yeah. That and a couple other things. One of the, something that resonates with the soul pod idea, I know I'm older than this. Yeah. I know this was not my first time existing or my first time learning. Yeah.
00:59:31
Speaker
I'm just very open to all of the many ways that learning could have looked. Yeah. You know, on the one hand, i would answer a lot of questions if I had if I and and all the rest of us have done a whole lot of learning that looked like, you know, being briefly mortal somewhere in one shape or form or another and planning to do it again after this.
00:59:54
Speaker
But I don't need that to have been how you and I got to the places we clearly already were yeah by the time we landed here, very little. Yeah. And it's not necessarily that I need it. It's just that I have this strong feeling that that is just how it is.
01:00:11
Speaker
Yeah. Well, there is a multiple versions of your soul pod claim are possible and not all of them to my mind require reincarnation. As long as there are other mechanisms by which people in some form spirits or you know intelligences as the the fancy Mormon scripture were in some cases as long as beings have been around for a while and have been able to do their learning alongside each other yeah then there are more than enough opportunities for people to choose each other and build relationships and therefore resonances with each other and then the whole notion can get off the ground in a variety of ways very true very very true
01:01:06
Speaker
well I don't think we can top that frankly it didn't have a good accidental climax shape to it as a conversation oh beautiful I love it but this is and again like I said like I want you to be able to come back like, you know, join us, join me, join us, me and Christina again, you know, at some point in the future. it is sort of contextually odd few total conversations I've had with Christina directly. It's under 10, I think. and Yeah, there's a whole lot. Yeah.
01:01:41
Speaker
She and I both hear about each other through you. Yeah. But, like, she's visited... A couple times, and I've seen her, two times? Where you've been around. And that's it. Yeah. Like, because
01:01:55
Speaker
it was, 2022, I know we all hung out because we went to Walden Pond. Yes. And you rescued the tiny baby lizard.
Memorable Moments: Shared Experiences and Humor
01:02:04
Speaker
Oh, yes. I forgot. I was laughing because i thought that as the time that I had that really good ice cream that's right next to the the train stop there. Oh, dear, listen to her.
01:02:15
Speaker
oh dear listener Much of Tom's brain revolves around sugar. What's the next sugar? What are the best sugars? What do they taste like? Yeah, that's me processing my same way.
01:02:28
Speaker
And I can't think of when else you've met her in person or seen or been around her in person. I have a strong mental image of you and Christine getting out of your car in a parking lot and me going in to hug her.
01:02:43
Speaker
But I think that might have been that time. might have been. Christina. Christina, sorry. It happens a lot. um I think that was then because we were picking you up at the train station. right And that, I think, was that parking lot. And she was putting on my hiking shoes um so that we could go walk around the trail.
01:03:05
Speaker
But otherwise, like she's, she has stayed at your parents' house. Yes. a couple parents That was the other time. That was, oh, that's what it was. was we were It was, oh no. It was the first time we went to Anjada's.
01:03:23
Speaker
And you were there that weekend yeah at your parents' house. And she and I stayed in Martin's room, your brother. We were staying just for, I mean, I stayed there for two nights, but she was there for one night. and we were, you know, basically taking our time going, you know, back for Sunday workshop classes and just sitting at your kitchen table and like just casually, casually, casually chatting with you chilling. So that that I think was the other time because I took her to the airport that afternoon and then
01:04:10
Speaker
um i think you and I drove back. to go back up here Yeah, and there was a fucking rainstorm it was really dark and I was panicking. Yes. Because the ah the treads on my tires were like frighteningly low.
01:04:28
Speaker
And I was very worried about hydroplaning, which is not ah not a... Not a silly thing to worry about. Yeah. But highways generally are are better... Not ventilated. What's the liquid equivalent of ventilated? That. They're usually better that.
01:04:40
Speaker
I don't even know what that means. Well, when something is like ventilated, it means the air can escape easily. So when a highway is structured... Okay, yeah. not much water is going retain on the surface of it right yeah i can remember how to use the word retain in the archaic 17th century way but i can't remember the word i'm looking for frustrating i hate it i get you though but still like i think it was i think i was also getting that like little like icon on my dash light that was like being like m we don't got much traction
01:05:11
Speaker
And so it was just definitely like, o it was a stressful time. And it was really late. We got back super late. And you slept here, and then I took you to the train station in the morning. Yeah.
01:05:25
Speaker
Memories. Emotional support, passenger princess. Yes, yes, indeed. That's my job. oh Thank you for dealing with that shit, because that was stupid.
01:05:36
Speaker
Three years down the line, I still sometimes think of my characterization of you as D&D classes as highway drivers, colon, Molly is warlock. They see an opportunity, and they take it.
01:05:49
Speaker
And they're not necessarily accurate about it being exactly the opportunity they expected, but they're sure as hell going for it, no matter how hard on the gas they have for it.
Creative Expressions: Personality, Poetry, and Future Endeavors
01:05:58
Speaker
That is Aries rising in a nutshell.
01:06:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, we've had this conversation, too. yeah She does her categorization of of personalities as astrology as astrology, and I do mine as, hmm, what would your D&D class be? Or more often, Pathfinder Versification.
01:06:15
Speaker
I've had that in my brain all day. I'm not going to start monologuing again. boom Yes. Well, regardless, thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you for loving me.
01:06:29
Speaker
so beartake thank you you me the stupidest joke in the world no i only i only don't feel like i've gotten it even though we just talked about the thanksgiving but it's from bob's burgers oh where the mom is like thank you for being here thank you for loving me kill the turkey I say that to Christina all the time and when she came for Thanksgiving in 2024 I was singing it to her all day as we were cooking her Thanksgiving dinner that's really cute
01:07:07
Speaker
And now, even though it applies and it should be like a, you know, non-giggle inducing phrase, whenever I say thank you for being here, that's what happens in my mind.
01:07:19
Speaker
is is there's that's the That's the whole phrase and I have to say it. I so i think you're very... allowed to people when you talk about love it's a giggle worthy thing whether they're you know punchline funny giggles or like oh this i'm so happy and this is exactly the kind of happiness the life was made for giggles yes all of it yes
01:07:44
Speaker
i'm so glad we could do this me too yeah and i love you too i love you and we'll be doing this again yes Yeah, because there's a lot still to talk about that we never even like scratched the surface on today.
01:07:59
Speaker
yeah But in the meantime, do you want to plug your writing Instagram, maybe? Oh, I do technically have something that I can plug. My ah writer's Instagram is wordandstorm.
01:08:15
Speaker
and you should go look at it. It's under my name, Tom Sorensen, but the handle is Word and Storm. Yes, absolutely. Please do go do that. Go listen or go watch and read and generally absorb and appreciate the poetry that comes from this man. And anything else that you want to plug or is that basically it?
01:08:40
Speaker
No, I mean, if people like that enough to follow it, they will certainly see when I get things going more. Hell yeah. oh Well, I think that's that's our show.
01:08:52
Speaker
and That's Bill Nye in my head. That's our show. Thanks for watching. He goes and does some wacky thing. what Can I actually trip over something in your living room? I would highly request that you don't.
01:09:07
Speaker
But I kind of want to now that I think.
01:09:10
Speaker
Wah-ha-ha! Oh my gosh.