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Episode 43—Mary Heather Noble on Emotional Charges, Emotional Distance, and Not Discarding Work
136 Plays8 years ago
Environmental writer Mary Heather Noble talks about her award-winning essay "Eulogy for an Owl."
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
This is the Hashtag CNF Podcast, a conversation with writers and artists about creating works of nonfiction. I'm your host, Brendan O'Mara. This week I welcome Mary Heather Noble, an environmental writer who won Creative Nonfiction's Editors Prize and issued 61's Learning from Nature edition. Her essay, Eulogy for an Owl, is a magnificent piece of writing
00:00:29
Speaker
and particularly profound for me as it talks about moving out west from the east coast and the latent guilt of leaving bitter family behind. And just so you know, the Mrs. and I are totally down, but we received our fair share of guilt trips, which is particularly maddening, but that's neither here nor there. We're here to talk about Mary Heather's work and her approach.
00:00:59
Speaker
some housekeeping. Share this episode with someone you think will get value from it. Subscribe if you haven't already. Leave a five-star review in your directory of choice. All these things help. A lot. Makes me feel good. So let's just dive in.
Environmental Regulation and Writing
00:01:15
Speaker
Here's Mary Heather Noble.
00:01:22
Speaker
Thanks again for coming on the podcast. This is great. And congratulations for winning the Editor's Prize for your SAULG for an OWL. Thank you.
00:01:32
Speaker
So first, in the blurb or your little bio for that essay, it says that your writing is influenced by environmental issues by being a former environmental regulator. I wanted to start off by saying what did that role entail and then how did that start to inform a lot of the work that came afterwards?
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, I worked as an environmental regulator for it was about six years, both in the states of New Mexico and Connecticut. And I would say that it kind of provides the lens for a lot of my work. The so my work as an environmental scientist really does. It provides like a lens that, you know, I look through for
00:02:21
Speaker
all of my writing in many ways. So did you have a particular discipline as an environmental scientist like wetlands or arboreal stuff or was it more all-encompassing? Right, so when I started I worked in permitting. I worked for the Groundwater Quality Bureau in New Mexico and their Environment Department and there we were really focused on pollution prevention and
00:02:48
Speaker
And so I dealt with a variety of industries. We dealt with municipal wastewater treatment plants. We dealt with industrial operations like generating stations, mines. We dealt with agricultural operations. And so that was a lot of just regulating waste streams with the goal of protecting groundwater resources.
00:03:12
Speaker
And then when I moved to New Mexico and worked for the Environment Department there, my focus was more on investigation and remediation of contaminated sites. And so I've kind of had the full gamut, if you will. I've looked at prevention of pollution and then kind of the investigation and cleaning it up after the fact. And I would say most of my creative nonfiction pieces
00:03:36
Speaker
have really been more so influenced by my work in Connecticut, the kind of after the fact, the legacy of industrial operations and kind of the silent messes underground, if you will.
Long-term Environmental Issues and Human Intervention
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, my wife, when we lived in upstate New York, in Saratoga Springs area, for a time, she worked for Ecology and Environment in Arcatus, these two consulting firms, but she worked for a long time on the super fund dredging site of the Hudson River for Gee, that super fund.
00:04:11
Speaker
Site so she was like, you know very Involved with that as the dredging started, you know up by the GE plant in Fort Edward, right? Yeah, so that's exactly what you're saying to some of this and the PCBs there so like this legacy legacy type stuff that's cleaning up of Historic mass that took place decades ago. Yeah. Yeah exactly and I think For me one of the things that I just kind of fixate on
00:04:41
Speaker
in my work is just the amount of time that it takes to recognize and address these problems. I mean, it's, you know, generations go by, or progress is really made. And, and there seems to be little regard for the generations that are potentially impacted. And so that that's kind of a thing that I tend to focus on.
00:05:05
Speaker
yet there's a i'm gonna butcher the quote and it you see it all the time just in the practices of of people it's they're so that so short-sighted that they think they mistake that we inherit the earth instead of like borrowing it from the future right now that it's that that whole idea there's just never any uh... forward look there's a very little forward-looking especially if you're looking how the
00:05:28
Speaker
EPA has just been gutted and everything that's going on right now. It's just such a slap in the face to future generations and to the work that's come before it to just get some fundamental safeguards in place for safe air, clean air, clean water, and then it's just to see it erode away is just devastating.
00:05:48
Speaker
There seems to be just all priorities placed on short-term financial gain and just a general failure to recognize that we're kind of animals in the system too.
00:06:02
Speaker
yeah it's a it's a fine it's a delicate web of interactions and uh... you also you're right about that too about uh... in in terms of uh... conservation you know what role do we play in helping preserve the the populations of certain animals do you do you let nature play out or do we
00:06:23
Speaker
Met metal in it because our influence has so negatively affected them So we actually have to maybe play a role in trying to balance the ecosystem It's it's a fine fine balance. That's something I wanted to ask you about you might as well Just talk about that a little bit now sure because yeah use I think yeah if I get the passage right here it's gonna sort of like midway through your essay you say I
00:06:49
Speaker
You know, of course, one of the goals of conservation biology is to preserve biodiversity within an ecosystem and make sure the health of the ecosystem is maintained so no species go extinct. But another, sometimes contradictory, goal is to allow the system to evolve naturally, allow species to do what they would naturally do. So what is natural in this case? And, you know, you also say like unnatural natural selection and speak to that point of what that means exactly.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, I think this idea of natural selection is that idea that conservation biology would preserve just kind of the natural tendency of evolution. It just allows species to kind of play out their competitiveness and just kind of let the process unfold without intervention.
00:07:47
Speaker
But given the influences that we have and our society has on other species, there is kind of this, I think, sense of, well, we've unfairly stacked the odds for one species over another, and therefore that's not really natural. It would be an unnatural natural selection. And so maybe our moral obligation is to right that wrong and try to put it back
Writing 'Eulogy for an Owl' and Finding Emotional Core
00:08:17
Speaker
put the picture back to the way it was. And I think it really gets at the heart of whether people perceive themselves to be part of a natural system or not part of a natural system. And that is a difficult question to answer. I think that's kind of a philosophical question for a lot of people, whether or not we are, in fact,
00:08:42
Speaker
animals in an environment or whether or not we're somehow above it and simply influencing it or being the caretakers of it. I don't know the answer to that. It's just an interesting nuance that I like to circle around.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, so when you were thinking about, before you got to the hard writing of UOG for an Owl, what was the hard thinking that went into it before you started drafting? And how did you come to this as something, okay, all right, this is, I know there's something here, I've got three to 4,000 words cooking. How did you start to approach it and think through it?
00:09:27
Speaker
Well, I will say that I actually started this essay quite a long time ago when I was living in Bend. I had sort of a little obsession with owls. Cool animals. And you know, living up in the Pacific Northwest, you know, just brings you really close to this spot at all.
00:09:48
Speaker
issues out there and I'd had a couple of encounters just with, you know, great hotels and things like that. So I actually started this essay years ago, where there's, there's sections in there, I think where I've talked about the High Desert Museum and it's, they have like the they had spotted owl ambassadors there.
00:10:11
Speaker
And I actually had done the research about the Walt Disney part of the essay and his eulogy for now and his story, or it was actually Paul Harvey's eulogy for now talking about Walt Disney and his childhood encounter with an owl. And I, you know, it was an essay that I, I, I was just fascinated by the, by the subject. And it wasn't until I moved back East and, um,
00:10:40
Speaker
and encountered this owl, this barred owl while just kind of walking the woods, that the sort of emotional charge came to light for me. You know, before it was just kind of a creative nonfiction sort of research-based thing that didn't have any power to it. It didn't really have a story behind it. It was just kind of a fascination for me. And then when I,
00:11:09
Speaker
When I moved back east and I saw this owl and it kind of made me pull the old piece out of the drawer and look at it again, I sort of realized, for me anyway, there were some parallels between my east-west kind of identity crisis and the story of barred owls and their westward migration and the influence that that westward migration has had on spotted owls.
00:11:37
Speaker
and their population. And so it wasn't until many years after I had started the piece that I really saw the story behind it. It was more just information that I had accumulated and put into a drawer and then had to resurrect after I found the emotional kernel in there.
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, you touch upon a real important principle and theme when it comes to writing something that's especially that has a personal braid throughout the whole thing, and that becomes distance from the piece and distance from the heart of it, maybe to find the heart of it.
00:12:19
Speaker
So how how how important is that to maybe resist the urge to power through and maybe stick it in a drawer and then revisit it when you're like oh yeah there's that there's that thing I was working on you know maybe make it more of a conscious thing and have that patience like how important is that in a piece of writing especially like this one.
00:12:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think actually it's really important and it is a lesson that has taken me a long time to learn. I think when you're really interested in a topic or I tend to be motivated by
00:12:54
Speaker
you know, maybe it's an image that just fascinates me or you know, I tend to I had this mentor in my graduate school program who who talked about writers kind of sniffing around for ideas like almost like a dog you just sort of sniff around and you're you're pulled in certain directions and and there is this Compulsion to just kind of honor that that attraction and I think when you're when you're interested in something it is kind of
00:13:23
Speaker
hard to put it away or you think, oh, this is so great. I just really, I have something here. And I think for me, one of the hardest things is knowing when you reach the limits of something and, or maybe it's just kind of, it needs to rise like bread first before you can take it any further. Or you need to let it cool before you frost it kind of thing.
00:13:51
Speaker
So I think that for me has just taken some years of experience to figure out. And I think I kind of know that now where I know not to throw writing away. I know to sort of just put it aside and hide it and know that eventually someday I may use pieces of that. So I think it's, I'm recognizing for me, writing is a little bit more like,
00:14:20
Speaker
Almost like quilt making where you keep these other parts and less materializing from thin air. I tend to recycle things.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah, what's interesting, Kim Kenkowitz, who was on a few episodes ago, and she won an essay contest in Creative Nonfiction in the Joy issue. What was really interesting about her essay, she had this essay kind of cooking around.
00:14:52
Speaker
didn't quite know what to do with it and didn't quite have the focus that she wanted but as soon as she got the sort of the the theme prompt from the magazine it kind of it coalesced and it like she was able to shoehorn it towards that one
00:15:10
Speaker
that one goal, and it totally crystallized the focus, and it totally worked for her, and it worked out brilliantly. It's a beautiful essay, and she won the prize. I wonder if something, maybe it happened with the Owl essay, or maybe it happened with something else.
00:15:29
Speaker
did you sometimes do you find that an external prompt of that nature sometimes like oh yeah i can take that and now i can write to that prompt and make this thing something that i didn't envision at the very beginning yeah absolutely i i would say that's that's definitely the case um with this with this piece you know that um it's interesting i mean i i would say i had picked it up um again after encountering the owl in um in the forest but
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that it's definitely true that it works for me too, where a call for submissions will identify a theme or something that really kind of sparks and highlights an opportunity with a piece of work that I'd put away. And it's actually, I mean, that's one of the best feelings to have this like, oh, I have something for that that I can resurrect and work on.
00:16:27
Speaker
It just really energizes the work. And it's an opportunity to rise to the challenge to see if you can make it fit. And that was certainly the case here.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah, and so what was the process like as you were sort of working through this essay? How did you approach it and what were those drafting sessions like and the reworking and what kind of notes did you receive? How did you approach it to get it from the point A to point Z?
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, so I had had a little bit of research. Basically, it was kind of like I had all these different clippings about owls, if you will. I had some research about spotted owl and the impact of the barred owl on the spotted owl population. And I kind of fleshed that out a little bit more. I had my own notes about just encounters I'd had with owls. And I had kind of the thread about how I felt about
00:17:31
Speaker
you know, my east-west transitions and really what I did is kind of look for points of this intersection between all the threads that I had in front of me. I really like to work with the braided form and that kind of, you know, it's like I'll have like five
00:17:49
Speaker
or three or four different threads that seem relevant to the theme. And I'll see if there's connections between those threads and figure out a way something can kind of naturally come together. In this piece, because the call for submissions and the theme for the issue was learning from nature, that was really for me the opportunity to kind of zoom out and look at
00:18:17
Speaker
conservation and the ethics of conservation from sort of a 10,000 foot level. That's what really for me kind of drove this particular piece because that was really the element by which I could kind of shoehorn it into this particular theme. And so, you know, it was initiated just by my own personal story and kind of my own personal dilemma.
00:18:44
Speaker
And I had some of the research sort of in a drawer, so I pulled all that out. And really, ultimately, it was the broader issue and the broader call for submissions and what we learned from nature that was kind of the driving force to enable me to put it all together.
00:19:02
Speaker
And what did you feel that you, that you did learn from this particular experience? Like what was your big takeaway from this, from the, from the interactions, the owls and that push and pull from the East and West? For me personally, it's, it's kind of like you, you, um, you know, I, I, I've always kind of wanted to have control over a situation and I think
00:19:29
Speaker
For me, the sort of takeaway was this relaxing into like, I am as much a part of this system as these other elements. And there are factors that push and pull you in one way or another. And, you know, for me, the kind of personal conclusion that I came to was that, you know, our family made a decision to come back
00:19:54
Speaker
because we felt like our connection to our broader family was kind of in danger. And given my husband's circumstances with his job, we needed to make a change. And that's kind of what brought us back. And to sort of draw the parallel to the natural world, I think there's just this, I don't really know what
00:20:22
Speaker
what's gonna happen, but I think there does need to be this acknowledgement that we have this role and we do have the influences over the natural world. And there is sort of a moral obligation, but I think there needs to be this recognition that we are part of this system too. And yeah, it's hard to articulate. I can't really say that I have a very clear takeaway message.
Disconnect Between People and Nature
00:20:51
Speaker
Maybe the brilliance and the great success of the essay you wrote was that it doesn't just answer things for you. It actually makes you question your space in the world. In a lot of ways, it's good tender for these types of ethical conversations about conservation and what it means to be part or fractured from a family.
00:21:19
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I think, you know, really, for me, that's kind of that gets to the heart of the thing. There is just a real disconnect. Certainly in my personal circumstance, there was a disconnect between us and our family. And I would I would argue that there's the same disconnect between us and our natural world. And, you know, that's kind of
00:21:44
Speaker
you know, the thing that sort of struck me when I was researching this whole thing, I had researched and read this article written by a conservation biologist who talked about just the ethical dilemma of, you know, having an owl in his crosshairs and that it kind of went against every grain of his being to be in that position. And I think, you know, that to me is sort of the beauty of it, somebody who just recognizes his connection. And I think
00:22:14
Speaker
most of us don't have that similar depth of understanding of our connection to the natural world.
Transition from Regulator to Writer
00:22:24
Speaker
What was the moment, if you can pinpoint a moment or a watershed, if you will, of moments when you went from your environmental regulator life to wanting to become a writer and write about a lot of these experiences? What was going on in your head that you wanted to make that transition?
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, so I've always wanted to write and I guess I just regarded it more as a hobby for many years while I was working in the environmental sector. And then I took some time to have kids and raise them. And that really gave me the opportunity to resurrect my writing. And I really felt this calling to kind of
00:23:19
Speaker
sort of bear witness to the kind of work that I had done. I mean, I think many people, it's certainly not like people don't understand Superfund sites or know that there's industrial contamination, but I don't think people really fully, deeply understand just how pervasive it is and how common it is and how truly long it takes
00:23:46
Speaker
to fully investigate and understand a site and then even attempt to clean it up. I think it's necessary for people to understand that if they're going to really protect resources and protect human health and the environment in the future. For me, it was driven by this desire to share my technical experience and
00:24:16
Speaker
kind of what I'd seen behind the curtain and figure out a way to do it in a manner that wasn't terribly boring. And so I like to write about sites that I've had or things I've witnessed in my work.
00:24:39
Speaker
as an environmental scientist, but try to weave it in a way where there's always kind of a human element. You know, I think people like to read about other people. People like to read stories about people. And so I always try to focus on the human element of those experiences.
00:24:58
Speaker
yeah that's it otherwise you just looking at like uh... academic papers that just have the statistics and numbers but you like if you can go on on a narrative component to it now you can now you're like this sherpa and you can really carry people through something that might seem esoteric or boring very hard to get into but it's just like what john mcvee made it has been writing about for fifty years you know a lot of stuff he writes is on the surface
00:25:27
Speaker
You would say dull, but he engages with these critical people at the heart of a lot of these environmental issues and then you can't help but be compelled by people trying to redirect the Mississippi River or cool lava coming out of Iceland or talk about oranges for 120 pages.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, so it's like you're exactly right. You need to like glom on that human element and how that reflects the environment. You can really talk about some important stuff but make it while making it very compelling. Right, yeah. I mean, I think for me, you know, I'm moved by things that grab me because of the impact they have on things that I care about, right? And I would say, you know, that's really kind of what
00:26:14
Speaker
what drives the engine for me if I'm...
00:26:17
Speaker
I may be intellectually interested in some environmental issue, but I'm not going to be motivated to write about it unless there's that emotional kernel. I'll give you an example. There's been a lot in the news lately about PFOA contamination in upstate New York and parts of southern Vermont, sort of a little region that was part of the Teflon industry. They created products, Teflon-related products.
00:26:48
Speaker
There's this contaminant that has gotten into the water supply in some of these communities. And I had gone down to Whosick Falls, New York, just to kind of, you know, sniff around and see what interested me, see if there was anything that would compel me to write. And I stopped and went into their community center. And this is a community that is
00:27:14
Speaker
You know, you had a very proud industrial legacy at one point, but it's now kind of, you know, in transition. And so the community had this, it was like a community redevelopment grant and they had this whole theme of instead of Husuk Falls, it was Husuk rising. And so there was this attempt to sort of resurrect community pride. And I've gone to the community center and they had this tree in there
00:27:43
Speaker
that had little index cards hanging from it with things that they love about Husik Falls. I love Husik Falls because of this or that. And I looked at the cards on the tree and there was one there that had been written by a little girl that said, I heart Husik Falls because it has a great pool to swim in. And I was there because of this water contamination, their public water supply, so that this wasn't just an isolated well,
00:28:13
Speaker
you know, this was their public water system. And so to see, you know, a little kid expressed, you know, her love and affection for this town because of this pool and the water, it just, you know, it was something that just kind of got right to the heart of it for me. And it was almost like that moment in Aaron Brockovich where the kids are swimming in the pool and they realize like, Oh my God, water's contaminated, get out of the pool. And, um,
00:28:37
Speaker
So that for me was one of those glimmers that really captured me because you're looking now at a generation of kids and what do kids do? They play in the water, they swim in the streams and that just highlights their method of exposure and it's very haunting.
Inspirations and Writing Routine
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Can you point to any particular essays or authors that have informed and influenced the work you're doing now?
00:29:08
Speaker
Um, yeah, I would say, you know, so I have kind of a couple of different groups of authors that I would say really influenced my work, you know, initially when I was really focused on kind of nature writing.
00:29:22
Speaker
and environmental work. My sort of literary heart throbs in that regard are... I like that literary heart throbs. That's actually a term one of my mentors used, and it was something that we would have to come prepared to talk about in our workshops. Give a presentation on your literary heart throb. That's great. So for me, one of my first ones was Terry Tempest Williams. I just really love the way she can
00:29:50
Speaker
right about a personal experience through a landscape. She was probably one of my earliest influences. I love Scott Russell Sanders and Sandra Steingreber. She definitely, for me, kind of has that Rachel Carson component and that
00:30:09
Speaker
ability to write about the sort of human impact of very technical things like contamination. Kathleen Dean Moore is another writer that I really adore. She's actually a philosophy professor out of Oregon State University and just has this incredible ability to
00:30:31
Speaker
I join human element, philosophy and environment. So those are the ones from the environmental sort of nature writing section of the bookstore. And then I find myself drawn to a number of SAS and memoirists as well. I really like people who have experimented with structure and form. So like Eula Biz, Leslie Jamison, Leah Purpura,
00:31:01
Speaker
Joni Tevis are some essayists that I definitely gravitate toward. I will read pretty much anything written by Brian Doyle. And gosh, Joan Wickersham and Abigail Thomas are a few memoirists that I
00:31:21
Speaker
you know, whose books I tend to go back to again and again, just because they've successfully written in fragments, and that's just something that really interests me from a structural perspective.
00:31:35
Speaker
And through all these writers, is there a commonality that you see among them that strikes such a chord with you personally? And you know how those electrons just tend to align when you read someone? Have you noticed something among all of them that really just sparks every neuron?
00:31:58
Speaker
in your brain. I think, you know, I would say for all of them, the threads that are common to all of them are just this almost sensitivity and vulnerability. And they all just have this very quiet, very detailed power of observation. And I think that's probably why I'm drawn to all of those folks in particular. I really love the kind of distance
00:32:28
Speaker
a voice, but showing vulnerability in a story. That's just something that just kind of wins me over every time.
00:32:38
Speaker
When you're starting to get into a project or even maybe you're between projects, what does your routine look like or your morning routine as you're trying to win the morning and then try to get some meaningful work done? How do you win the day in that sense and maybe that first hour to 90 minutes of your day? What does that typically look like?
00:33:00
Speaker
Well, it sort of varies. I'm one of those writers that I kind of have spurts and dry spells. I think partially because I've got kids and, you know, so I have to kind of work around that. A really good day for me is, you know, I get the kids off to school. I come back to an empty house.
00:33:18
Speaker
I am able to successfully avoid any distractions or temptations from looking at the news or anything like that and getting sucked into those rabbit holes. Ideally, I would have something that I've already started. I already have the clay on the wheel, if you will.
00:33:41
Speaker
and can just kind of get into a quiet zone where, like, for example, let's say I've got a number of pieces, fragments, just kind of in a manuscript and I can print it out and then start to really look for the points of intersection so I can organize them. And, you know, once I have sort of a general framework, then that's when I really try to enter the dream and, you know, go into the individual fragments
00:34:11
Speaker
and flush them out and then, you know, it's almost like swimming where it feels fluid and I'm looking for that ideal, you know, when you get to the end of the lane and you have that good turn and head back out, that's what I'm looking for in those intersections between fragments. So, and if I'm starting from scratch, I always need to write
00:34:40
Speaker
uh, in my journal, you know, pen and paper, the old fashioned way. I can never just start on the computer. So, um, that's where, you know, I tend to have, um, I need some outside influences for inspiration, whether, you know, I'm just going to an art gallery or something, just to get myself in the mood and then going off with my journal or, uh, you know, um, take a walk in the woods or something. You know, I kind of need something to prime the pump and then I can,
00:35:08
Speaker
go and quietly just dream up some ideas.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. You touched upon so many cool things, like going to an art gallery. And sometimes, I haven't asked this in a while, but I like to ask this of writers, of what other artistic media do you consume to help spark interest or inform your bread and butter? So going to an art gallery to help spark your writing. What kind of things like that do you indulge in to help your writing?
00:35:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think it's a great question. And for me, when I first started to get into writing and take it seriously, it felt it felt a little bit like cheating, like it didn't feel like part of the work.
00:35:58
Speaker
And it wasn't until I had gotten, I think it's just called The Artist's Way by Julie, you know, where this concept of making artist's dates for yourself to kind of keep yourself well nourished. That was like the first like, oh, no, this is actually part of the work and essential to it. So yeah, for me, I would say going to galleries, going on walks, you know, just getting out in the natural world, those are
00:36:28
Speaker
you know, it's almost like, you know, it's meditative. It just, it's necessary for me for just getting decluttering the mind with the everyday mechanics. So I definitely do that. The other thing for me, honestly, is sometimes watching documentaries, watching films. That for me can be really
00:36:52
Speaker
inspiring. There's one in particular that I'm thinking of. I hope I can remember her name. The documentary was called Stories We Tell. Sarah was the director. Sarah, I'm kind of spacing on her last name. I believe it starts with a P, but the documentary is called Stories We Tell, and it's this wonderful documentary
00:37:13
Speaker
about the director herself and her family and this story in her family about her mother and in fact, who was the true identity of Sarah's father. So there was a story about infidelity and the mother had passed away. And so anyway, the documentary itself was her interviewing all her different family members to get their versions of this family story.
00:37:42
Speaker
and then trying to kind of chase down the truth through those means. And it was just, it's just such an interesting study of different perspectives and how everybody remembers things differently. And so it was just, I feel like it should be a required element of every memoir class ever. But that was really interesting and fruitful for me.
00:38:11
Speaker
Yeah, if I can find documentaries that talk about storytelling or certainly anything that highlights any environmental or social injustice, that will definitely kind of get my juices flowing too.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah, there are some documentaries I love are Jiro or Yiro, Dreams of Sushi. I don't know if you've heard, have you seen that one? Oh, it's so good. You know, I've actually watched it like six times. I'm gonna write that one down. Yeah, well it's, you know, on the surface it's just about, you know, one of the world's, or maybe the world's most famous sushi chef, but it's really about the creative process and like just dedication to a craft and art. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:55
Speaker
And then also like the search for General So, about General So's chicken. But it's really about the Chinese American experience and surviving and the resiliency of the people who came over to this country and how they got a toehold in America through the Chinese food industry. And it's just so, so brilliant.
00:39:18
Speaker
that they have these great little hooks, these titles that might suggest something different, but underneath it all, like any good piece of art, it means so much more. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, one of the things I just love about sort of studying documentary is just looking at how film approaches storytelling and kind of what
00:39:42
Speaker
you know, what that can do to inform our work and really and the similarities between film and writing or even, you know, visual art and writing. It's just so, it's just so interesting to, to look at that.
Research Methods and Writing Flow
00:39:56
Speaker
I actually just spent a couple of weeks up at the Vermont Studio Center for a writing residency. And, you know, as part of that experience, you have the opportunity to go to open studios and really chat with all the visual artists that are there. And, um,
00:40:09
Speaker
And I had this conversation with this painter about the revision process. I was trying to just understand how do you revise as a visual artist, what does that look like? And it was just very interesting. She talked about how she would take a piece of tracing paper or a big sort of somewhat transparent piece of paper and then put it over her painting and then
00:40:35
Speaker
cut out, literally cut out the parts of her painting on the tracing paper that she wanted to highlight or, you know, in just a way of sort of looking at it to see, you know, what if I bring this to light or I put more emphasis on this part of the painting or what if I cover this up? And it was just interesting to, you know, hear that and think about like, how is that similar to what I do as a writer when I'm playing around with my own work? So
00:41:02
Speaker
I really feel like all the different forms can inform, all the other different art forms can really inform our writing. Do you have a process whereby you create a greater vocabulary? Do you log words that are cool and just keep them stowed away and be like, oh, I can use this really neat word somewhere? Do you geek out on the language and the words?
00:41:30
Speaker
Gosh, I don't know. I've never thought of that before. I think I geek out more so on the structure and metaphor, if you will, you know, like, oh, gosh, it could be, you know, just a landscape thing. And I'll think to myself, gosh, you know, that really resembles something in my life or yeah, I tend to be more
00:41:58
Speaker
image driven than, I mean certainly language is the form I'm working in, but for me it's very much image and then it's a matter of finding the words to express whatever image I'm obsessing about.
00:42:14
Speaker
What does research or what does your process of research look like and how do you organize the stuff that you collect from wherever it is you get it and before you sort of start writing? What does that process look like? Sometimes I will lose myself in the research actually to the detriment of my work. That's an area that I do geek out on and I think some of that is because
00:42:42
Speaker
of my scientific training. You know, I feel like I've got to have the info, got to have the footnotes, even though they don't ultimately end up in the piece, I feel like I must have them. So I feel like, you know, often, let's say, for example, for this owl piece, I'll just have
00:43:07
Speaker
you know, some things that have interested me like, oh, gosh, you know, I know there's a tension between the barred owl and the spotted owl population. Like, what exactly does that look like? And, you know, when did barred owls start moving westward? And so I tend to disappear into online research for that. And really, you know, I guess I would say
00:43:34
Speaker
It's almost like I have questions about the topic of interest and then I have to figure out, well, how am I going to answer those questions and where do I need to go to answer those questions?
00:43:47
Speaker
Um, that will kind of take me to, um, you know, the online resources or the library or what have you. Um, and it, it can be somewhat of a rabbit hole, you know, where, um, I'll be in there and then I'll think, Oh, well look, that's really interesting. I wonder more about that. And I do have to sometimes, um, reel myself back. Um, but yeah, it's, it's kind of, it's for me, it's kind of driven by this, like, what, what questions do I have about,
00:44:16
Speaker
this topic and where do I need to go to find them? And then ultimately, once I have that information, then I can kind of start to trim the fat a little bit and think like, okay, so now what's relevant really to the emotional kernel here that I'm working on?
00:44:36
Speaker
you're right peter clark talks about uh... zero draft which is like it kinda gets you out of the the potential crutch of excessive research it's like sometimes it's really easy to do like productive procrastination by yes just research research research i just need one more thing does that he's like you know what you can't be afraid to start early in what he calls a zero draft like you could be seventy five percent what you deem uh... enough research but
00:45:03
Speaker
He thinks he's like, you should just start writing and then see what holes you may need to fill and backfill at that point. Because at least you got to start doing the work at some point. Yeah, exactly. It's difficult. It's difficult. And I have found myself where I'll have a piece pretty well structured and some parts are really thoroughly researched and some parts are just not. And then I've just got to lose myself in that.
00:45:34
Speaker
And you referenced swimming earlier as kind of a metaphor, and that's kind of like a real perfect way to see the research or the creative process, because a lot of people try to get to a sense of flow and sort of being buoyed by the process. And if you're in a flow state in swimming, you feel just buoyed by the water, supported by the water, and quiet and effortless.
00:45:58
Speaker
And I wonder how do you approach that? How do you obtain that degree of flow in your writing or your research? How do you define that? And what does that feel like to you? For me, it's about consistency. So I'm kind of able to achieve that.
00:46:18
Speaker
that state if I have good long blocks of time and certainly five several days in a row where I have good long blocks of time. I'm a big believer of kind of in the writing retreat, even if it's not something formalized like an actual writing residency, just, you know, getting away for a weekend and getting away from your everyday obligations so that you can really achieve a deeper state and really get yourself into the dream of your piece.
Overcoming Challenges and Handling Rejections
00:46:48
Speaker
For me, just because of my life, when I'm able to get away, I can't. I can achieve that. If I'm not, I tend to be a night owl. So after the kids go to bed, I disappear into the basement. And I'm in a place where I'm not afraid to read my work out loud. I don't feel silly about it. It's just kind of this room of my own, if you will.
00:47:17
Speaker
read and reread something and really get into the rhythm sort of the musical rhythm of the piece itself and Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of the dream state for me and certainly You know when I'm able to actually even move myself When I'm rereading a piece and and kind of feel that emotion swell up in myself. That's that's what I know like I'm really in the zone Yeah, yeah, and um
00:47:46
Speaker
Are you kind of a binge writer or do you just take a little chunk each day? Some people can write for three to five hours straight, button the chair, and can just do that. Or are you more like you take maybe 45 minute bites and then a little break and then so forth? How do you structure that generative process? I'm not a regular methodical. I just am not.
00:48:16
Speaker
It's, you know, I have these moments of really productive time periods and then I have dry spells. And so, yeah, I would say more like a binge writer, like when I'm productive, like it's for a good long time and I sort of lose time. And I tend to be sort of a slow writer because I'm
00:48:36
Speaker
I wish I could be better at this, just writing and generating material without editing. That is really difficult for me. I tend to edit as I go. And so it's very slow going. And so when I do finally get into a groove, it's a good long run. And then if I have to take a break, I kind of can't wait to get back to it because I feel like I'm just in that zone and I don't want to lose it.
00:49:04
Speaker
I really envy people who have the discipline to just get up and get their writing in for 45 minutes and then go on about their day and actually be productive over the long run. That's just not how it works for me. I really need to disappear into it and have the time and space to do it.
00:49:22
Speaker
What does your query process then look like in your submissions of essays and other articles? What does that look like? Then when the inevitable rejection comes in, how do you process that as well?
00:49:43
Speaker
This is going to sound silly, but I often will use contest announcements as deadlines. That will get me motivated. I'll try for this. I think partially because when I got started, I had this real anxiety about
00:50:04
Speaker
Being in the slush pile and I and I had you know, I sort of convinced myself well if it's a contest submission that I'm guaranteed a look and And yeah, so I'll I'll just I have like a calendar in my office where I've written down a bunch of deadlines and and I'll have like a separate piece of paper where I have written down the particular contests or particular calls for submission and
00:50:31
Speaker
and write down what pieces I think that I have might fit for those. You know, however you're talking about earlier, you know, a call for submission often can be that thing that makes something gel. So, and then, you know, I'll kind of just go by what my gut's telling me if I'm really motivated by a particular theme or something that has been put out there. I'll work on that.
00:50:58
Speaker
I tend to do it that way. I'm a little bit less of a pitching an idea in a query letter. I'm a little more motivated by, hey, we have this theme and we're asking for folks to submit. It's almost like a backward process ramp. It's not like I'm coming up with my own ideas.
00:51:22
Speaker
And when I do get rejections, yeah, it's part of the process. I keep a spreadsheet about where I've sent out and when I get my rejection. And then often I'll just do the revolving door. I'll pitch it out to another place. But if I have gotten rapid fire rejections on a particular piece, then I'll put it in a drawer. It's time to really look at it.
00:51:52
Speaker
And every once in a while I'll get a very nice rejection that, you know, just is validating that like, Hey, this is a great piece, but it's just not fitting our editorial needs. And then you're not completely delusional. Exactly. It just feels, you know, it's kind of like the acceptance rejection, like, Hey, it's not you, it's me. You know, where you feel like, well, okay, so it's a good piece. It's just, you know, I sent it to the wrong place. And I tend to look at my pieces like,
00:52:22
Speaker
you know, a box of puppies that need to find homes and, um, and you know, often it feels like, well, I've got to get them homes quickly before they lose their cuteness. But, um, but, uh, but sometimes, you know, you know, uh, people want that nice, well-behaved older dog and, um, and, uh, you know, it's just a matter of finding the right place for the right for a particular piece.
Following Mary Heather Noble's Work
00:52:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Before I let you get out of here, let me just ask you, where can people get more familiar with your work and find you online and all that good stuff? If they listen to this, they can go find and read more about you and your work.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So I have a website. It's maryheathernoble.com. I also do have an author Facebook page. I'm not quite as active on that. My author website, I do have a blog that I tend to probably once, twice a month. And usually it's kind of a longer form, where I tend to write about social or environmental issues, political issues, that sort of thing. So I've written about, for example, I've written about the PFO contamination in Husick Falls and
00:53:37
Speaker
You know, it's just places where I can explore topics but not have to, you know, it's a quicker turnaround than doing essays. So I do have connections to my publications there as well. I do have a Twitter account, although I'm not particularly active with it. That is at nh underscore noble. Yeah, so I'm out there.
00:54:01
Speaker
Cool, very nice. Well, Mary Heather, thank you so much for stopping by the podcast, and this was a lot of fun talking shop with you, and I really appreciate your time. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for the opportunity, Brandon. Great to talk to you. You too. Take care. All right, you too.