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Episode 196: How to Be Fine with Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer
125 Plays5 years ago
Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer are the people behind the By the Book podcast and the authors of How to Be Fine: What We Learned from Living By the Rules of 50 Self-Help Books (Willam Morrow).
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Transcript
Introduction and Call for Submissions
00:00:01
Speaker
ACNFers, you ready to submit your work for the first ever, and possibly only, audio magazine? Don't all shout at once. The theme is social distancing, essays on or from isolation. 2,000 words max. Got that? It's about a 15 minute read. Can go shorter. In fact, I encourage it. Submit the Creative Nonfiction podcast at gmail.com. Dart.
00:00:27
Speaker
It's not .com anymore. It's Dartcom. Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com by May 1st. That's four weeks from now. They gotta be good. They gotta be true. I can't wait to see what you come up with.
About the Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:49
Speaker
All right, what is up? CNFers, I suspect there might be a few newbies to the show on account of the amazing women who are joining me for episode 196 this week. This is CNF. I should tell you what that is. It's the creative nonfiction podcast where I talk to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm your host, Brendan
Meet Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer
00:01:12
Speaker
O'Mara. Hey, have I got a treat for you?
00:01:16
Speaker
It's the first ever more than two person podcast in nearly 200 of these friggin' things. It's Jolenta Greenberg and Kristen Meinzer, the co-hosts of the wildly popular By the Book podcast, where they do these crash courses and self-help books in two weeks and then report back to you, the listener.
00:01:36
Speaker
It's a reality show and podcast form. It's pretty darn cool. And they have a new book out called how to be fine. What we learned from living by the rules of 50 self help books. It is published by William Moro.
Reflections on 'The 4-Hour Workweek'
00:01:53
Speaker
Something I didn't get to talk to them about in depth was Tim Ferriss's The 4-Hour Workweek. We talk about it a little, and I wanted to say how that book in essence kind of ruined my 30s. I mean, it's my own fault, really. But the ideas of that book were pretty
00:02:13
Speaker
pretty insidious to my frustrated brain at the time. It came at a time when I was frustrated by my lack of career advancement and so I got into this life hack culture a bit. That whole trying to work smarter, not harder. Smarter, not hotter. The problem was I eschewed that entire part of working harder to earn the right to work smarter.
00:02:37
Speaker
Yeah, it was a mess. So in this line of work, creative work, certainly journalism, you need to grind it out. The people who, you know, quote unquote, make it, they're obsessive. Meanwhile, I tried to hack my way to success, which is it turns my stomach to think about it. And now look at me. You're welcome, world.
Promotions and Self-Reflection
00:03:03
Speaker
I have nobody to blame but myself for being a sucker for influencer culture instead of just putting my goddamn head down and working working hard and outworking everybody else Stupid man, it's really stupid
00:03:17
Speaker
So in this podcast we talk about negative self-talk and how best to avoid it. You can tell I listened with not one, but two ears. Hey, are you subscribed to the monthly newsletter? You just missed April's. Sorry, man. It's pretty rad.
00:03:34
Speaker
I give out reading recommendations, book recommendations, cool articles, and what you might've missed from the world of the podcast. Once a month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. You can follow the show of course at CNF pod on social, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. Make sure you're subscribed wherever you get your podcasts. Show pops up everywhere. So far as I can tell a couple more items to waste your time.
00:04:01
Speaker
I finally started diving back into the memoirvel. It's the baseball book that was supposed to be a memoir, but it is too thin in places that matter, so I have to make it a novel. A page a day and I'm marking it in my field notes notebook with a skull. I'm using my, as of yet, unpublished, and will forever be unpublished, 270 page memoir, The Tools of Ignorance. I wrote basically as a,
00:04:31
Speaker
You know, it's basically a giant notebook from which to draw from now, so... Yeah. I know. The non-fiction guy is writing a goddamn novel. I hate myself too, so you don't have to.
00:04:45
Speaker
I don't know why I'm bashing myself so hard on an episode that features these two amazing people who are like PhDs in self-help books, who wrote sections in their book about trying to be better to yourself, be kinder to yourself. This is not good. It's not a good introduction, but maybe it is. Maybe it's the perfect introduction. Lastly, CNFers.
00:05:07
Speaker
If you want to get in shape, you hire a personal trainer. So if you're writing a book or an essay, you need an editor who will whip that thing at the shape and give it abs. You want your work to have abs. I'm here to help you reach your goals. Email me and we'll get to talking. Got it? I'd be honored to serve you in your work.
The Origin of By the Book Podcast
00:05:31
Speaker
All right, so Jolynthe Greenberg is a comedian and podcaster among many other things. Kristen Meinzer is the author of So You Want to Start a Podcast, which by the way, I just purchased because I could use a few pointers, am I right? She's a producer and the former director of nonfiction programming at Panoply. Both are certified badasses and here they are.
00:06:04
Speaker
And then I developed this great rapport and chemistry that you illustrate so well on your podcast. Oh, Delenta gets all the credit for this one. We met back in I'd say around 20 what 2012.
00:06:19
Speaker
I had just finished acting school and I was sort of a struggling comedian, actor, nanny, theater box office worker, you know, doing about eight jobs to make ends meet. And one of the jobs I ended up working was I was a part time assistant at a news radio show where Kristin was the culture producer.
00:06:41
Speaker
And basically we connected because she was the only person at this hard news show who had seen any movies or TV or like fun stuff. Um, so we became friends, uh, just through working together. And then I got the idea for the show because at that job, we also got sent tons of books from published publishers and publicists hoping that the show would cover their authors.
00:07:06
Speaker
Um, and I was in charge of getting the mail and unpacking these boxes of books. And normally they'd end up on a shelf. People would sort of grab them if they peaked their personal interests or like everyone would grab them on mother's day to give them, give them away. Um, and I would end up hoarding the self help books because I felt like my life was a mess. As I said, I was working many, many jobs and didn't really have a trajectory.
00:07:34
Speaker
And so I was like, the answer to my life will be in these books. Also, I'm an exhibitionist and like I do comedy, so I'll try to make a project out of this. And because I love advice and I feel like I take it too seriously and like have a tendency to love like getting my brainwashed, maybe it would help to have like a responsible adult friend along with me. And Kristen is the first one to come to mind because
00:08:01
Speaker
Not only is she a cool culture critic, she's also like the kind of adult friend who always knows like the right specialist for that illness you have, or like how to buy a home, or like which lawyer you should go to. She's just like the best adult. So then we ended up doing it together. That's great. And Kristen, what do you remember from your first interactions with Jolenta?
The Power of Authentic Storytelling
00:08:24
Speaker
Oh, Jolenta's a gas. She's so fun.
00:08:29
Speaker
She is, I am saying this with the warmest sentiment. Most comedians can be a little irritating, but what I love about Jolenta is she's hilarious, but she's still a real human. She talks about herself in a way that is very honest and interactive and is acknowledging other people. And I think that's one of the reasons why by the book is so successful is because she's not just a comedian who's like, I'm going to one up everyone and say the next funny thing. I'm not even listening to what you're saying.
00:08:59
Speaker
It's really built into our show that we listen to all of our listeners as well. Everything that we go through, they share their own stories on, and then we share their stories back to them in our episodes. And so I just think that is one of the things that makes Jolenta such a delight is that she is kind of like the storytelling version of a comedian, not just that everybody listened to me comedian, but then on top of that, she's just like a great human being who shares the parts of herself that maybe other people are too embarrassed to share.
00:09:29
Speaker
talks about things that maybe society deems are not worth talking about or too hard to talk about or too embarrassing to talk about. So yeah, Cholenta is just a delight.
00:09:38
Speaker
to to that point there's that there's a fine line in comedy to where somebody can be you know uh... yet trying to be too jokey or they just let the sort of story tell of the uh... do the heavy lifting and a great example of those listening to the uh... the hb o plus uh... moth story that you want uh... told uh... with a with a plumb and it was just like there aren't any real jokes and it's just a funny situation told expertly and uh...
00:10:04
Speaker
Yeah, so, Jelinta, as a writer, how have you developed a certain confidence of voice to let the story do the heavy lifting and not try to override it and be overly jokey and thus taking away from the power of the story itself? Well, I mean, I never know if I'm not overriding it and forcing too many jokes, but so I appreciate that you think I don't. I'd say what I have found, at least this is what I relate to,
00:10:34
Speaker
when I hear stories or read a really engaging personal essay, I find the more specific you can be in your details, in your personal experience, whether it's like feeling details, just, you know, moments you remember, that the more specificity you have about your personal experience, weirdly, I find the more people can relate, the more you sort of
00:11:02
Speaker
Individuate, you know what I mean? The more you really share your vulnerable, your vulnerabilities, that's what sort of sucks people in. And then they can relate to it, even though they haven't had the same experience with like HBO plus and stealing passwords as me. They've all had these sort of moments of feeling mortified or like they messed up communicating with their parents.
00:11:26
Speaker
And in just being as specific as I can be about the moments that I remember and the ones I choose to share, I feel like the comedy and the relatability hopefully just sort of comes out.
00:11:38
Speaker
Right. There's a specificity is so important in terms of any, any kind of narrative storytelling you're looking to get into because it is kind of a, a toehold or a handhold on the wall that you're looking to climb up because it does give some people something to latch onto. And then thus the writer in, in this pace, the performer, the comedian is that much more relatable and you can really see them leaning into it. Right. Yeah. That's the goal. Hopefully. Yeah.
00:12:06
Speaker
So, Kristin, as a writer yourself, having sort of a partner in terms of podcasting and of course the book you wrote too, what have you sort of learned yourself as a writer, having a performer as sort of your wing person?
00:12:29
Speaker
Oh, well, I want to know that answer, too. Well, it's definitely the case that, as Joanna already mentioned, I came from a culture critic background. And a lot of the kind of writing that I was used to doing didn't actually bring in my own vulnerabilities. It was really about, you know, what are my thoughts on this? Why is this a bad movie? Why is this a bad book? Why do I hate this TV show? And
00:12:55
Speaker
the comedy and the writing folded in mostly just because I was saying really bad things about bad content. Thank you. And, you know, just pointing out all the, you know, heteronormative, sexist, misogynistic content that is out there in the world. That is, you know, a big part of my shtick, if you will. But one thing I learned from Gilenta is, along with that
Challenges of Vulnerability in Storytelling
00:13:20
Speaker
criticism, if I am bringing in the vulnerable parts of myself,
00:13:24
Speaker
it makes it so much more interesting for people. That way it's not just the angry woman ranting, which I like to think I was always kind of like the happy woman ranting, not just the angry woman, but by adding more of myself to it, I became much more than either happy or angry. I became an interesting woman, a woman who was complicated, a woman who made bad decisions and continues to make bad decisions but tries to do better. And bringing in all those other parts of myself that normally I wouldn't
00:13:54
Speaker
want to put on display, but I learned that through JoLenta. It's made for much better storytelling, both on the show and in our book and, you know, things that people have been shocked about, things that people have said, oh, I relate to that. And I've gone through that, too. And oh, I've never heard anybody else put it that way. But that's exactly how I feel about my body or about the way I have sex or about the way that I feel invisible in certain situations. And so I think that
00:14:24
Speaker
That is one of the greatest gifts I've gotten from Jill Lenta is just the confidence to do that because it's not something that occurred to me before and now I do it all the time and it's made all of my storytelling better. How much of a challenge was it for you to be comfortable as possible in that vulnerability? That was horrible. Really? You don't let on.
00:14:50
Speaker
No, but you remember early on the first, what was it? It was in season one and I was freaking out the night before an episode went out in season one where I talked at length about my history of disordered eating and I was terrified of this episode going out and I just thought, what's gonna happen? What are people gonna say about me? Are they going to tell me to just, what's wrong with you?
00:15:18
Speaker
And then it went out into the world and it was just the most beautiful response. We got so many people. It was the episode that really was a tipping point for us. It went from people just listening and thinking it was funny to people writing in and sharing their own stories back at us. And some of the stories were just so heartbreaking. So many people wrote in and said, I've never told anybody this before, but I also hide my food or I've never told anybody this before. Everyone thinks I look so good, but
00:15:47
Speaker
I don't actually eat. Um, and all these different stories that people were sharing about how they feel the need to look a certain way and society validates them and treats them better, but in exchange they have to injure themselves essentially. Um, it really made it feel worthwhile in the end because you know, it was terrifying, but it was the listener feedback that made it feel worthwhile in the end.
00:16:11
Speaker
And Jelena, to kind of piggybacking off of that, how have you grown comfortable using your life experiences, of course, to generate material for a lot of the other creative projects you have? Where did that confidence come from for yourself? Oh, man.
00:16:33
Speaker
That's a good question. I feel like, in a weird way, my inner life and my experiences are some of the only things I have confidence in, because no one can question it. No one else is inside of me. So if I share it, I know I'm dead on. If I had to share information about history or geography, I would not have this confidence.
00:16:59
Speaker
I know what I'm saying is 100% my perspective and true about me. So I feel pretty confident.
Starting a Podcast: Initial Challenges
00:17:07
Speaker
And I have found, I guess, through trial and error, throughout many open mics and bad performances, that the more genuine I can be, the better response I get in my work. The more people laugh and are affected.
00:17:24
Speaker
And so I don't know. I guess I'd like to be able to apply that confidence in other areas of my life now that I talk about it. And so at what point do you guys, you know, lock into each other in a sense where you've got these self-help books and you're like, you know what, this, why don't we, you know, have a sense, let's start something. Let's share this out in public and, you know, and start a podcast about this very subject.
00:17:52
Speaker
Well, Jolenta came up with the idea way back when we worked that job together and we did try back then to make a pilot episode, but it really ended up being a heavy lift. I was, you know, working full-time, plus I was already hosting another podcast. Jolenta had her four different jobs. It was just a little bit too much to handle when we already had so much on our plates. I would say, I don't know, Jolenta, were we each working at least 60 hours a week already at that point?
00:18:19
Speaker
any podcast on top of that was definitely a challenge. Not the best idea. It was a great idea. It was not the right time. So we put a pin in it. And then later on, I ended up moving to another job. And at that job, they said, Hey, does anyone have ideas for shows? And I said, Hey, hey, hey, and I raised my hand. And before you know what, we were making what is now called by the book with
00:18:45
Speaker
that company which was a spin-off company of Slate called Panoply that no longer exists and we made the show and from the get-go it was very popular with listeners and then we were fortunate to keep making it and making it and eventually when Panoply shuttered we ended up moving to Stitcher with it so we are just wrapping up season six right now of the show we've lived by 50 self-help books
00:19:11
Speaker
It's amazing that what you've been able to do and keep it going and just keep illustrating what's good and what's bad and what you wish was illustrated in these books. That's something you touch on in your book, How to be Fine.
00:19:32
Speaker
But I wonder too, just in your journey on this particular podcast, what were some early stumbling blocks that you guys experienced as you just learned to gain your footing and find
Lessons from Reality-Style Podcasting
00:19:46
Speaker
a collective voice that reflected you guys but also what you wanted the tone of the show to be? Oh, wow. I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks was early on. We didn't know how much to record because
00:20:01
Speaker
One of the things about our show is we are essentially breaking the format of what most podcasts are. We're making a reality show, which is normally done on TV. And we didn't know how much to tape. And on our pilot attempt, God, how many hours do we have to like 40 hours of tape? Yeah, I would say I had at least 25. I just recorded nonstop. Yeah. And so that was the biggest challenge because, you know, um,
00:20:28
Speaker
when you're making a reality show, you need to have all of the components to have a proper story arc. And you want all the dramatic moments. You want the dull moments. You want everything. And then eventually you're like, no, no, you just need certain moments that help illustrate your show or illustrate your experience. You don't actually need 40 hours because each episode of our show is only 40 minutes. So that was definitely one of the biggest challenges is what do we do with all this tape? And then in the end we realized,
00:20:57
Speaker
stop recording so much tape. We just had way too much tape. Yeah, that's a part of the show that I really like that really kind of breaks the form a bit, because I was fully expecting, because I didn't listen to your show until after I had read the book. And so it was like, all right, I'm just expecting these two people to be going back and forth and unpacking those books and then just having a little two-person book club there.
00:21:23
Speaker
On the air and it was great to hear the tape of you guys, you know speaking with your partners and then having those conversations I listened to the four-hour workweek one Among others but that one's like when Kristen when you went up to your boss and just told him like hey I'm working from home for the rest of the day it didn't work out perfectly for you in that in that instance working the rest of the day pretty much but
00:21:46
Speaker
But the fact is you had that on tape, but it was a very direct recording. So I think at that point, you're like, OK, this is this will make for good tape. Let's hit the let's hit record and then and then gather this material. Yeah. And, you know, you may recall in that tape, my boss at the end was like, hold on, are you recording me? It does happen once in a while that we'll be recording and people won't realize until after the fact that we're recording with them. Yeah.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, I've also that's one thing I've had to learn, which is to disclose more to the people in my life about when I'm working.
Maintaining Trust in Podcasting
00:22:22
Speaker
Because even though I think of it as one in the same, some of them feel a little used. One time we were living by the little book of hygge about like, relaxing.
00:22:33
Speaker
and enjoying company. And I had a party, but it was because I was living by this book. And then when I started recording, my friends were like, wait, you did all this just for a book. You sent a nice invite, had us come over. And this was just for work. And now you're secretly recording us. Screw you. So I've also had to learn to disclose, hey, would you guys come over? Also, I do have to do a work thing.
00:22:57
Speaker
at the beginning of it, if you don't mind, like that kind of thing. I have to be more sensitive to the actual humans in my life.
00:23:06
Speaker
so they don't feel like props. Yeah, it's a friend of mine and a brilliant author, Madeline Blaise, she wrote this amazing memoir several years back called Uphill Walkers. It was just about her family growing up in Massachusetts. And of course, when you're growing up with people, you never know who might develop and who will become the writer of the group. And then you don't realize that all those years you were on the record without even knowing it.
00:23:35
Speaker
And so like towards the end of the book, you know, they're all just swimming in the ocean and a cluster of the sisters are together kind of whispering to each other, Maddie's off to the side. And she's like, why are you whispering? And they were all talking about like, well, we don't want a sequel to come out. And so it's to that point, it's like, well, geez, now we know we're on the record because you've written this book. And it's like, now we have to be kind of be careful about what we're saying around you.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, and you don't want to lose like trust of your loved ones because of what you do for a living. Exactly. Well, what would you say, uh, which, you know, which book that maybe you guys came across, which one would you say addressed your, you know, your deepest concerns and, you know, at your core, one that really, you know, you knew you were going to lock into? Oh, um,
00:24:27
Speaker
Oh, JoLenta, I know that, well, I picked out a book called What to Say When You Talk to Yourself, which was- I was going to say, it's one Kristen picked for me, but it's the one that's stuck with me the most, for sure. Yeah, and that may sound kind of sinister that I picked it for her, but that book is all about negative self-talk, how to overcome it, how to be kinder to yourself. And JoLenta, for anyone who listens to the show, you'll hear that, especially in the early seasons,
00:24:50
Speaker
She would frequently say horrible things about herself. Like, Oh, I'm just a garbage person. I have a garbage person problem, apparently. Yeah. And so I picked out that book and I said, we're going to live by this book and I want you to be a little nicer to yourself and don't want to say, Oh, I said, this looks stupid. And then it like blew my mind. It's a really just like smart,
00:25:15
Speaker
Good book written by a real doctor, which in the self help world you have to, you know, do some background research to be sure like just such a simple profoundly good book that's actually helped me.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, I lifted a few parts of that section of how to be fine, too, out where you wrote Gilenta that I thought this harsh inner monologue was an immutable part of me, and you had to retrain that mean friend voice. And it was also someone like, if someone spoke to you that way, you would never want to hang out with that person. Right.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I would, yeah, I know Nor would I let someone speak like that, speak that way about anyone in my life. So why am I doing it to myself? And like, turns out it is actually a learned behavior and you can retrain your brain pathways. And like, if you do the work, like they say in therapy, like, it works. Or it helps at least.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's something I've had a problem with over the decades because I think when I was younger, when I could be really self-deprecating and so self-aware and making jokes about myself and people would laugh, there was validation and like beating the shit out of myself. Exactly. And then like over the years, sometimes then you start to believe it and it becomes very insidious. So, you know, how did you learn, how did you,
00:26:40
Speaker
start to retrain yourself to be kind to yourself and kind of rewire those pathways to not beat the crap out of yourself. I mean, I'm not great at it still, but I found even just the simplest changes in behavior can start to make a difference. This actually came from a different book called The Simple Act of Gratitude.
00:27:03
Speaker
Um, but basically the author advises whenever someone asks you, asks you how you're doing today, um, say, uh, answer with something you're grateful for or something that's going well. And my knee jerk reaction, if someone said like, Hey, how's it going? Would always be like, Oh, everything's awful. I'm a piece of shit. Here's why blah, blah, blah. But, you know,
00:27:27
Speaker
If you pause for a hot second when someone says, how are you? You can be like, oh, I'm good. I had a really nice conversation with my mom this morning. It really brightened my day. How are you? And just sort of retraining myself to try to go to something genuinely positive or that I'm actually grateful for in my life as opposed to immediately something I feel shame about. That has started to help in itself.
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah. How about you, Kristen? Um, well, I, I love that step of, you know, answering with happiness and gratitude when people ask how you're doing and so on. But one thing in a simple act of gratitude I also loved that I think is useful for retraining brains is just to talk nicely to yourself when you wake up each day and thank it for everything it does. So, um, for example, waking up in the morning and saying, Oh, thank you lungs for helping me to breathe through the night.
00:28:24
Speaker
thank you so much toes as you wiggle your toes. Um, thank you as you walk across the floor to your bathroom, to use the bathroom and you know, thank your body for all the things that it does because sometimes learning how to be kinder to ourself is just thanking our body for what it does right. And not just our body, but other parts of ourselves too. Like, Oh, thank you brain for remembering that thing. Thank you heart for letting me love my husband. And, um, so sometimes,
00:28:53
Speaker
talking to ourselves more kindly is really just about gratitude. And Kristin, there's, and this extends to you as well, Gilenta, you know, there's, you know, there's a feeling too, when you plug into a certain self-help book, you know, and you kind of, as you're reading it, you kind of feel like invincible and you're like, oh, like, this is good, this is exciting. But then of course, as you were saying earlier, Gilenta, like, you have to do the work.
00:29:18
Speaker
How have you guys learned to parlay the momentum of reading a book that you're really locked into, into the action that you will manifest the change you're hoping to see in yourself? Well, there's always momentum because we live by each book for two weeks. As soon as it's done, we have to live by another book for two weeks. And so we're all in. It's not like we have to stretch it out for a whole year. I imagine that our experiences with all these self-help books would be different if we had a six month or a 16 month deadline.
00:29:47
Speaker
In two weeks, it's, you know, we're not running marathons. We're doing many, many sprints over and over and over again and sprinting our asses off during each book. And so I would say just the structure of the show is what allows us to work so hard and come up with those concrete deliverables. And, you know, it's, you know, we, for example, with the life changing magic of tidying up by Marie Kondo in two weeks, you know, read the book,
00:30:17
Speaker
Touch every item in your home. See if it sparks joy. Donate or recycle every single item that doesn't spark joy. Then live by the Marie Kondo method, meaning you are not allowed to have any visual clutter for the rest of the time living by the book where there can't be anything on a counter. There can't be any shampoo in the shower. There can't be any soap next to the sink.
Living by Self-Help Books: An Experience
00:30:38
Speaker
You cannot see anything in your house at any time. There's no artwork allowed on the walls because that's considered visual clutter to her.
00:30:46
Speaker
It's a lot to do. And in order to squeeze it all in in those two weeks, we can't stop. There's no point where we can just say, well, there's no time to question it. Yeah, there's no time. You just have to do it. And also, I feel like, yeah, now that Kristen said it this way, also knowing there's an end in sight and something else to move on to helps really commit to it, which doesn't help in the in, you know, the real world. If you're like, it's just this one book.
00:31:13
Speaker
Right, and to that point, was that a relief in a sense, and I'm specifically thinking about when you guys did, you know, when French women don't get fat, and that triggered a lot of the trauma of your disordered eating, Kristin, and the fact that you endured that.
00:31:36
Speaker
Very raw thing to read and how to be fine and I suspect that That having only two weeks with that book was in a sense of relief and the fact that even powered through those two weeks was impressive unto itself, so Which ones of these and you can point to point to that one in particular? But like, you know, which ones were especially toxic for you? That one was really bad. Yeah
00:32:03
Speaker
That one was bad. And I think that one was a good illustration of just the differences between Kristen and I were like, I love advice, but I also like have trouble taking it as specifically as Kristen does. Like I tend to go off in my own world with it sometimes. And Kristen gets so gung ho. She almost like doesn't see the end in sight. And
00:32:27
Speaker
you know, it's up to myself or her husband to sort of pop in and be like, you don't have to take this as seriously as you're taking it. And, um, like we're allowed to give ourselves break or breaks or admit when things aren't working. When, when we were living by the miracle morning, I was losing it because I would have a late work event and then have to get up early. And then I got sick cause I wasn't getting enough sleep. And Kristen had to remind me like, it's okay.
00:32:54
Speaker
Like this isn't actually running your life. You can take a nap. You don't actually have to get up early. Yeah. If you are getting sick from the book, please stop is pretty much one of the rules. And I have come up with where, um, and sick, however, we define it, but, uh, Joe Menta actually had like a fever and couldn't get out of bed with miracle morning. And she was legitimately sick and with a French woman don't get fat. Um, I don't know if sick is the right word, but I definitely was becoming totally unhinged. It was not healthy for me.
00:33:24
Speaker
You were going, yeah, some old patterns were emerging that weren't cool. And sometimes you have to be reminded like you don't have to stick with this. Or like, if it is impeding your life this much, you're allowed to adjust. Or like the advice could not be right for you. Or it could be bad, period. Yeah. And Jelenta was just pointing out what a stickler I am for following the rules. And one reason I am is because I believe that's one of the services that Jelenta and I are doing. I mean, more than anything, a comedy show.
00:33:52
Speaker
Also, we're a show that is taking self-help books and looking at them with a critical eye. And the way to do that, I believe, is to really follow the advice down to the letter, to be the test kitchen. If they say to make a quiche with one quarter tablespoon of this and one cup of that, I'm not going to put in a pinch of this and a scoop of that. I'm going to do it just as they say so that people who are listening can hear, like, this is the worst recipe ever, and I never want to eat this, or what have you, because
00:34:22
Speaker
I am not deceiving them in any way. I'm doing exactly what the book said. And I would say that, for the most part, my persnickettiness of, you know, living every book as precisely as I can has served us well, because anytime someone says, you don't live by the book, right? Jelenta and I can say, actually, yes, we did an academic reading and we lived by this book as well as a person possibly could without dying.
00:34:45
Speaker
How have you, as your show has gained the traction that is rightfully deserved and you've gone through the whole process of this and you realize you're getting a lot of people writing in with their experiences and offering their insights. Was there ever a point where you were kind of overwhelmed or you started to feel the weight of, for the
00:35:07
Speaker
I would say for lack of a better term, maybe the burden of the audience to be like realizing that people are listening to this. People are probably doing this alongside us. Did you feel the weight of that responsibility over time? Yes, yes, yes and no. Yes, we've also we've realized we we've come to realize our audience is is basically sort of two different factions. There are people who come
00:35:35
Speaker
to our show as like, oh, I like podcasts, this is in comedy, it seems interesting, could be worth a laugh, maybe I'll learn or feel along the way. And then there are people who come to us who love self-help, have very strong feelings about certain authors or certain practices, and they cannot wait for us to like stumble across what works for them and have it like change our lives in the same way.
00:36:05
Speaker
often. So we're realizing we can't always meet all the expectations. And when we don't, we hear about it. And sometimes we adjust because it's super valid. Other times we get butt hurt. Other times we ignore it. It just depends on the feedback. But we've had to learn also just to be discerning in the feedback we listen to or just know, yep, we always get this kind of stuff.
00:36:35
Speaker
But we love the feedback and we need it because it helps us know that our audience is connecting with us, that, you know, we're telling relatable stories and we like to be able to share their stories because, you know, we can only cover two human experiences and there are so many out there. And when people write in saying, I live by this as someone who lives a life totally different from yours, and this is why it actually helped me as opposed to it not helping you, you know, I love
00:37:02
Speaker
being able to share those points of view as well. So we want to keep the dialogue up and make it healthy, but we also don't want it to run our lives or hurt our feelings too much.
00:37:14
Speaker
Well, and that was kind of a problem you guys have with a lot of the books is that the author is often a case study of one and yet they're trying to impart sort of this very myopic experience on what could be a very impressionistic audience of thousands. So in a sense, you're kind of coming at it with a more empathic ear that to realize that your experience isn't representative of the entire, the entirety.
00:37:42
Speaker
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. That is such a good way to put it too. A case study of one. Yeah. That's the best way to put it. Yeah. And a lot of these people with their case studies of one are not even what I would consider the mean or the average or the median or any of those things. They are people who skew extreme, extreme enough that in the first place they would want to be a case study of one. So, um,
00:38:07
Speaker
for us to try and model ourselves after, for example, Tim Ferriss, whose goal is to be an Asian movie star slash competitive archery horseback rider slash person who's lived in 40 countries slash person who writes books slash person who does this. This is an extreme model of what to be. And if he is the case study and there's just one of him, where does that leave the rest of us who don't want to do those 80 things on his to-do list?
00:38:37
Speaker
If we all just sold supplements and started writing books, the world would fall apart.
00:38:44
Speaker
And I love the Dolly Parton quote that you kick off the book with that says, I don't like to give advice. I like to give people information because everyone's life is different and everyone's journey is different. And I think that gets to the core of what you guys are about. So how did you stumble upon that quote and how did you know that that was essentially going to be the lead domino that thematically tied the whole book together?
00:39:10
Speaker
Um, well, Kristen and I both share a deep, deep passion for Dolly Parton. And basically when I started toying with the idea of just any quote, uh, I just, I literally just googled Dolly Parton quotes, but it was one of the first ones to come up and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is exactly what we've been trying
Themes of 'How to be Fine'
00:39:32
Speaker
to impart. Like we're not going to tell you how to live. This isn't like a self-help book where.
00:39:37
Speaker
You do X, Y and Z just like us and you'll end up a perfect billionaire. But like we want to share the experiences we had from adhering to advice that claims to be really good. Let you know the trends we've noticed of things that work and don't work and things that have worked for us that aren't usually covered and like just give information.
00:39:58
Speaker
And Kristen, there's a part in the book where you say, thinking of the enormity of it being the writing of the book just makes me want to crawl under the covers for the rest of the year and watch Laura Ingalls Wilder go fishing. And then you go on to write, too, that done is better than perfect, which is so important as a writer and a creator. Whatever it is you're doing, you just have to finish.
00:40:22
Speaker
When you looked at the totality of a book project, one in which you have a co-author, too, which has its own complications, how did you get over the overwhelming task of writing the book for you so you're getting words down, however imperfect they were? Yeah. I mean, that appeared in a chapter where I was talking about how much I hate the advice of, look at the big picture, eyes on the prize.
00:40:50
Speaker
keep an eye on the finish line and and how much actually for me personally I do better and get more done. If I don't look at the big picture that can be really overwhelming. It can be really tough and instead just look at the next you know the next page I have to write and just say all you have to do is write for 10 minutes today. That's all you have to do. Write as much as you can for the next two hours or what have you. And if I can just take things in bits and pieces I know I can finish it. If I look at the big picture
00:41:19
Speaker
I'm just going to die. It's just too much too busy being overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. It's just too much for me. And unfortunately it just comes up over and over and over again. All these self-help authors tell us to do the eyes on the prize thing and the big picture thing and the 10 year plan thing. And it's like, no, all I need to do is write for 10 minutes. Please just let me do that. I can write for 10 minutes. I know I can sit down. And even if it's a really tough day and I only get one sentence out, at least I sat down for 10 minutes and wrote. Um, and that's what works for me. And,
00:41:48
Speaker
I think that, you know, everybody's different. Again, to go back to that Dolly Parton quote, I'm not trying to tell other people how to do things, but what works for me is just to do things in bits and pieces. And so that worked with this book with Jolenta. It worked with the last book that I wrote. I broke that up into seven different parts, and then each of those seven parts, I broke up into another seven parts, and that's how I was able to get through it.
00:42:12
Speaker
Gilent and I, we started off doing something similar. We broke the book up into parts. We're like, we know we want to have a section on this, a section on this, a section on this. We know that we want to include certain listener letters. Where are we going to fold those in? We know that we want to each talk about this thing and that thing, and you want to talk about that. How are we going to fold that in? And once we had all the structure in place, it really was just, all right, let's split up and write our parts. And then when we're done writing our parts, let's make sure our parts talk to each other.
00:42:39
Speaker
When you decided on the structure, how did you guys go about storyboarding that? Were you guys in a room with sticky notes, cork boards and everything? How did you go about organizing this? We were in a phone booth in an office, crammed together over one computer, I believe. Once we decided, we can't give advice the way a self-help book does, where it's like, be like us.
00:43:06
Speaker
So we had to, we're like, okay, we're going to hit on the trends we've noticed. What are the general themes? Okay. There are things that always work. There are things that tend to make us feel bad. There are things that we use to get by that don't get mentioned in these books. Then we sort of start filling out those sections from there and basically just said what we were most passionate about. And we tended to have different passions.
00:43:32
Speaker
And then once you sort of figure out the subsections you want to cover, we looked at, we sort of went back to our master list and made sure, you know, we each had a good number of topics for each section and then tried to think about order to make sure it wasn't, you know, five Kristin sections in a row and then five of mine, but how we would break it up and then went from there.
00:44:00
Speaker
So when you settled on the sections you wanted to write, did you guys essentially set up your own Word documents or Google Docs and then go about threading them together or stitching them together? Or were you in the same Google Doc? And just each working together on the same thing? What were the sort of methodology behind constructing the book? We had a giant Google Doc and we would
00:44:29
Speaker
for the most part write separately and then just paste our sections in each day. Whatever we wrote that day we would paste in and we.
00:44:36
Speaker
In the end, our publisher did not want to Google docs, so we had to pass that into something else. We then had to make it a Word doc. Yeah. So there was a lot of cutting and pasting involved, but yeah, lots of format changes, but yes. Yes. But Jelent and I are already accustomed to working together and shared Google docs because that's how we also make our show is all of our scripts, our outlines, our planning documents, all of that. We have been using shared Google docs since day one.
00:45:05
Speaker
With this genre of self-help books, is this a uniquely American thing or are other industrialized countries as obsessed as this country is with self-help and trying to level up all our myriad inadequacies?
America's Self-Help Culture
00:45:27
Speaker
Well, self-help is read all over the world. We have listeners from
00:45:30
Speaker
Oh God, dozens and dozens of countries. We hear from people all over the world who listen to our show and who love self-help books. But, you know, America does have a special relationship with self-determinism and the mythology of anybody can be anything they want here. And that's so much of what our country is founded on, that independence and that individuality. And it's so much of what our economy is based on, the commercial culture of the post-World War II eras completely based on
00:45:59
Speaker
Here's what you're doing wrong. Here's something we can sell you to make you feel better about that thing. You're too fat. Your house is too small. Your clothes are too shabby. You're not successful enough. So I really think that those two things combined between the way our economy has been structured for the last 80 years, along with what the historical context of America's mythology is, it makes it just like the perfect place to sell self-help books.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah. And what about you, Jelenta? Is that something that resonated with you as well? Yeah. I feel like it's sort of the perfect storm. I mean, it's definitely like, like Kristen said, it's everywhere and we have listeners everywhere, but the sort of American component makes it, I think a bigger deal here and more of a, I think it's more of a fact of life. Like what are you doing to like,
00:46:53
Speaker
better yourself or raise yourself up or become part of the 1%. It's much more ingrained in living your life also means trying to be winning, at least right now.
00:47:07
Speaker
Angelina, you wrote to at one point in the book that you wish more books helped us explore how to get to the root of the self-limiting stories we tell that hold us back. And to that extent, were there any that at least started to at least knock on that door, or are you still seeing that that is a fundamental lack or a fundamental weakness in so many of these books? I'm definitely seeing a trend, especially
00:47:38
Speaker
since the Me Too movement went mainstream about like embracing anger for women and like using your voice. So I do think we're starting to look at some systemic problems and individual responses that aren't just sort of how to go with it, but how to sort of bump up against these barriers in healthy ways, if that makes any sense.
00:48:08
Speaker
What about you, Kristen? Is there something in that that you notice as well? Well, I think Gillette is right that in the post Me Too era, there are more books that are acknowledging women and telling us to rise up and use our voices more. But as the great Meghan Markle famously said, women have been speaking all along. It's time that the world listens. And so I think that while I very much am in favor of
00:48:38
Speaker
this new trend of, you know, telling women to be stronger, to speak up more, to, you know, to talk about our limits and our boundaries. I think all of that is really important and there's been more and more of that, but also to get at another thing, Jill Lenta was hinting at there, there's only so much we can do when the rest of society won't play along. So, and that comes up over and over again in self-help books. You know, we can lean in as hard as we want to, but maybe there should be a fix for the fact that
00:49:07
Speaker
our society still underpays women and it doesn't matter how much we lean in, society needs to change maybe. And that's not just with, you know, in terms of salaries, but it's in terms of lots of other inequalities that are in America with, you know, the incarceration rate of black men in the US, which is so, you know, to say unfair and bigoted is such an understatement. It's just, this is major structural inequality in America.
00:49:35
Speaker
So it goes to salaries, it goes to incarceration rates, it goes to housing access, it goes to a million other things that maybe making a better sleep schedule or leaning in more or eating a better, you know, diet isn't going to fix these bigger issues. And yeah, I really wish that more self-help books would acknowledge that.
00:49:57
Speaker
yeah there's a point to that jill enter row in the act is echoing your very sentiment christen that he she said the majority of the self help books out there don't encourage us to examine it the damage done by the societal standards placed upon those who identify as female and in terms of this sentence but
00:50:13
Speaker
There are all kinds of institutional shackles placed on women, people of color, that fundamentally keep a boot on the neck of people wanting to manifest the best vision of themselves. And it's like, yeah, we can read as many of these books as we want, but until there's something, you know, societally mended, then you could read as many of these books as you want and you still are going to be spinning your tires in a lot of ways.
00:50:42
Speaker
Right. You can lean in so hard to a system that's like rigged against you, like, you know, and still not succeed as high as the people it's like rigged for. Yeah. And the people who it's rigged for can then continue to believe in that mythology and say, well, the reason I'm on top is because I just did a better job of manifesting something through my visualizations. I did a better job of leaning in and maybe no, maybe it's because
00:51:09
Speaker
you are somebody who society gives the advantages to already. Maybe you're somebody who doesn't have to deal with the same structural inequalities as the rest of us.
00:51:19
Speaker
And with respect to, you know, in the book, too, you make it a point of including letters from your listeners and on the show, of course, you have emails and letters from your listeners. And to what extent have you guys learned from the letter writers and learned from your audience in a way that, you know, of course, when you're creating
00:51:40
Speaker
this thing, you're putting it out there in the hopes of, you know, educating and entertaining your audience. So in which ways have they returned the favor and educated you guys? Oh, all the time. Every five seconds, I don't even know. I mean, as Gilento was already saying, they bring perspectives that we don't have. We can, you know, imagine what it must be like to be this person in this situation, but we're not that person. We are
00:52:09
Speaker
You know, we are two women in marriages, two men who are in the same generation. And then there are people out there who are in their 70s who will write in and say, hey, I am somebody who lives in this part of the world and I'm not married and I'm not the same age as you. And this is actually how I feel about things. And the reason why men are from Mars, women are from Venus was so useful to my generation is because
00:52:34
Speaker
not because men are inherently this way or women are inherently this way, but because we were socialized to be this way. And that's why all men my age are actually like this book.
Pandemic Lessons: Self-Kindness over Improvement
00:52:43
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. That was one of my favorites where it's like when you're, when you're from a generation above you, this book actually helps communicate with how these men were socialized. Yeah. So that was especially useful is just, you know, hearing from people who are decades older than us about certain books or decades younger for that matter with other books.
00:53:03
Speaker
And given that we're all social distanced and basically self-quarantined for the most part, I think that your book comes out in a very, it comes out in a good time because right now we are essentially holed up in place and this is a time to do a lot of self-reflection and during the slog when things will start to pick up again maybe a month or two months, maybe three months from now.
00:53:32
Speaker
we can either be three months older, we could be three months better. So in a sense, how have you chosen to maybe see the situation we're in right now and the timing of your book as a chance to, okay, this is a chance to maybe sharpen the saw, get a little bit better so when the world resumes, you're that much more equipped to hit the ground running once we reach that new normal, whenever that comes.
00:54:02
Speaker
Oh, I think I see things slightly differently. It's not about sharpening the tools or the knife or getting better. I see it more as just being a little kinder to ourselves. And I don't think that we have to think of now as now is the time to optimize. Now is the time to learn more than ever. Now is the time to take advantage of this moment of slowing down. I think if anything, it's, you know, do what you need to do to feel comfortable and connected with others.
00:54:31
Speaker
maybe be a little bit less hard on yourself right now. Um, maybe remember that we're all doing the best that we can and you don't need to read 10 novels in the next 10 weeks. You don't need to learn a foreign language. You don't need to do any of those things, but ideally do what you can to feel a little safer, a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more connected to others because I think that in the long run, that's a, that's just what's going to make life more enjoyable.
00:54:57
Speaker
And that's what's going to make society better is if we're more kind and more connected. How about you, Gilanta? Yeah. I mean, I've got a similar, similar vibe going as Kristen where basically it's a, it's a time to like, just like be nice to everyone and like empathize with yourself, with others and just sort of like, you can pause like the FOMO tapes that run in your head and be like, we're all in the same boat.
00:55:26
Speaker
things are uncertain and weird and we all feel out of control and like the things that do help us and usually make us feel grounded are connecting and like sending love and receiving it in, in digital ways right now. But yeah, just taking the time to like connect and like, if you're a hustler, like remembering why you're even hustling, like what's it all for?
00:55:51
Speaker
It's for connections with people and to feel comfortable and safe in your home, hopefully. So like take time to, yeah, take care of yourself and be grateful for what you have and like remind the people you love, you love them and like you'll get love back, which also feels great.
00:56:08
Speaker
And as we kind of wind down here, um, is there anything, you know, we've, we've talked about a lot of stuff in our hour so far, but I wonder if there's anything else that I, that I haven't touched upon. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about with respect to your book and you know, what's on your mind at this current time, you know, with respect to the book or anything else for that matter? Um, I just want to kind of wrap things up by saying something that Jelena already hinted at, which is.
00:56:36
Speaker
No one is more of an expert in being you than you. Jelenta says this a lot. And so do what you need to do for yourself right now. Even if everybody else thinks this author is right about everything, whether that author is, you know, Brene Brown or Tim Ferriss or what have you, it's okay if that person doesn't speak to you. It's okay if somebody's advice or meme on Facebook right now isn't speaking to you and how you should be coping right now.
00:57:01
Speaker
It's okay if it's just your own heart saying, no, I need to do this and this is what's going to make me feel better. That's okay. Do that. And just more than anything, try to be kind to others right now. Give what you can give, connect with others in whatever way you can connect. And those themes are also in our book, in our book and hopefully in everybody's minds and hearts right now during this time. Nice. Well, where can people find you guys online, get more familiar with your work if they're not already familiar with it?
00:57:32
Speaker
Oh, well, you can go to KristinAngelenta.com. You can look for us where you subscribe to podcasts where we host by the book. We also host a spin-off show called We Love You and So Can You, where we help other people with predicaments that they're facing in life to hopefully help them love themselves a little bit more. And then we also are always online. My Twitter is at KristinMeinzer and Gilentes is at Gilentegie.
00:58:02
Speaker
Yep. Nice. Fantastic. Well, guys, this was a ton of fun to get to talk to you and learn a bit more about you and the way you go about the work. And I know if somebody asked me how I'm doing today, I'd be like, you know what? I got to talk with Jelena Greenberg and Kristin Meinzer, so it was a good day. Oh, stop. Well, you made our day great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, you're very welcome. Enjoy the rest of your day.
00:58:30
Speaker
We did it. We made it CNF-ers. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure you're subscribing to the show. Of course, this crazy show is produced by me, Brendan O'Mara. I make the show for you. I hope it made something worth sharing. And if you really dig the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Show notes are at BrendanO'Mara.com.
00:58:49
Speaker
Follow the show on the various social media channels at cnfpod across them all. Get that newsletter at my website. Win books, win zines, hang out with your buddy BO. Once a month, no spam, can't beat it. Are we done here? We must. Because if you can do interview, see ya!