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Labelling Unpacked
28 Plays9 months ago
In this thought-provoking episode,"Labelling Unpacked," we dive deep into the intricate world of labels and their influence on stereotypes, identities, and self-perception.
Bhavna shares details of her study on labelling by examining the power of societal labels and how they can shape our perceptions of different groups, often reinforcing stereotypes that limit our understanding.
Next, we explore the impact of personal labels on individual identity. How do the labels we assign ourselves or the labels others assign to us shape our self-concept and self-esteem? We'll share personal stories from individuals who have grappled with labels and how they've navigated the journey of self-discovery.
Our conversation also touches on the role of advocacy and empowerment through labelling. As we conclude this episode, we reflect on the challenges and opportunities that come with redefining labels and fostering a more inclusive and understanding society. Join us for a deep and enlightening exploration of how labels influence our perceptions and our sense of self.
Book Recommendation :
Quiet : The Power of Introverts in a World That cant stop Talking , Susan Cain
Bhavna's Study questionnaire. We would appreciate if you would like to share some details about yourself here. The study is anonymous.
See Questions
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:06
Speaker
Hey there, welcome to How We Think, a podcast that takes a deeper look at coaching conversations, the biases and beliefs that show up in such conversations and ideas that make you sit up and take notice of your patterns, your behaviors and opportunities to change. I am Neha Indoria and I have the amazing Bhavna Vasti with me. Hey Bhavna, how are you doing?
00:00:29
Speaker
Hi Neha, I am very, very good and very excited once again to be here with you talking about something that's really close to my heart.
Impact of Labeling on Identity
00:00:40
Speaker
You tell me how you're doing.
00:00:41
Speaker
I am doing well too, Vavna. Thanks for asking and I'm glad to be here as always. And like you said, today's topic is the one that is close to your heart and then one that you have done extensive research work on. In fact, I was going through your immersive research paper and I came out to be impressed. Would you like to introduce it for us? Absolutely. It would be my pleasure, honor, joy, all of that to bring today
00:01:09
Speaker
labeling and its impact as the topic that we're going to be talking about. And it all started with this one saying that I was exploring. This is from someone called Charles Horton Cooley. He was an American sociologist at the start of the 20th century. And he said, I am not who you think I am. I am not who I think I am.
00:01:37
Speaker
I am who I think you think I am. And this is such a well, one convoluted twisted statement, but it helps to capture the complexity in our identity.
Personal Experiences with Labels
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. It is a convoluted statement, but one that actually makes you think really deeply about what we think about identity and how others perceive it. And if I was to put it rather plainly, labeling, it's like a name, you know, it plays into the oldest human tendency that we need to identify and compartmentalize everything so we can quickly refer back to it when we need it. And we know how to respond. One of the examples that came to my mind was
00:02:22
Speaker
Think of the cavemen, cave people that we all evolved from. They identified and labeled fire is hot, tiger is deadly and cows is gentle. And now imagine a dark cold evening and the cows grazing and the fire is burning and the tiger approaches. Now the caveman knows in an instant that he will take the burning log, scare the tiger and protect the cow before the tiger has a chance to do anything. You mentioned this in the research as a way of identity formation and behavior.
00:02:51
Speaker
added being an adaptive trait. I'm wondering, can I also put labels into buckets or can I categorize them? Absolutely. I mean, what a good question Neha and what a segue too. But you know, before we can talk about categorizing these labels, I want to just go slightly deeper into why they're as simple as, you know, like you put it, just ways of identifying things.
00:03:20
Speaker
the other part of labeling, that's the, you know, I would like to call it the dirty underbelly of things, is that these labels, they have an impact, positive, negative. And that's something that came out of the study also, that they have an impact. And also, sometimes these labels
00:03:46
Speaker
are what defines how we show up in the world, how we experience our world. I have experienced labels very, very intimately. I think from the time that I was growing up I was very aware of
00:04:05
Speaker
what others thought I was, and I spent most of my growing up years either aligning to these labels or defying these labels. And at some point when I started my coaching journey and I was reflecting and exploring my identity,
00:04:27
Speaker
I actually had no idea who was the real me because there were so many labels that were given to me that I was constantly keeping up or defying. I had no idea who the real me was and I was walking around the earth with that lack of
00:04:45
Speaker
very integral knowledge about my own self.
Origin and Validity of Labels
00:04:49
Speaker
So even before we categorize whether the label is positive or negative, whether it's part of our cultural societal contribution, whether it is a label that stereotypes us or whether it is a label that is part of the social identity that we carry, the awareness that
00:05:16
Speaker
Here is a label and this label has a power. That's like really important. I'm going to talk about like various labels and what they would really mean in that in a particular setting. I just wanted to, I've been going on for a bit now. I wanted to hear your thoughts.
00:05:37
Speaker
No, you're right. You're right. I think it starts with, as with everything else in life, it starts with awareness and you know, you have coached me before, you know how it has this statement of who am I, it's close to home as well, because we spend so much time
00:05:56
Speaker
thinking about ourselves under categories and we don't really stop ever to think of who we really think we are. In fact, it reminds me, this reminds me about a conversation I had with a client and the bit about stereotyping. He's a founder, he set up his company and he did it completely from scratch about eight years ago.
00:06:24
Speaker
And he's done an amazing job building it up. And now he's at a stage where, so the conflict that he brought to the table for us to discuss was, Hey, I want to make, I want to become much bigger than what I am. I want to do 10 X of what I'm doing right now. And for that, I need to free up my day.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I don't want to be involved in operational things. He made an interesting statement. He's like, a founder doesn't do all of these things. So I'm like, okay, what does a founder do according to you? How would you define them? And so the conflict lay the cocks of the conflict was that he believed that
00:07:02
Speaker
he is the creative brain behind everything that happens. So wherever the creativity or the solution of things is required, that's where he needs to be doing that job and he can't really trust anybody else to do it. But at the same time, he realizes that he needs to kind of let go of daily operations and think of bigger things.
00:07:24
Speaker
And just that bringing that awareness to the fact that he's possibly not even letting his team think for itself because he's so busy believing that he's the creative one and he's the one who has the vision. I think that awareness was what has now started us on a great journey and I'm waiting to see how it goes. Interesting. And you know what is coming for me? I'm thinking
00:07:54
Speaker
This label that, you know, I'm very creative, I'm innovative. I'm the one who has the solutions.
00:08:01
Speaker
This label, where
Cultural Labels and Stereotypes
00:08:03
Speaker
did it come from? Who gave it to him? How did he land on it? How long has it been at play? And what are some of the outcomes and results based on the contribution of this label in his life are? Do some of the questions that I would like really want to be a fly on the wall in your session to find out more about?
00:08:28
Speaker
But what a great example of a stereotypical label. We also have cultural labels. Cultural labels involve the application of characteristics or traits associated with a particular culture for individuals within that culture. So a cultural label can influence personality by shaping expectations and norms for behavior within a given cultural context.
00:08:56
Speaker
And this and something that is like a clear example of this would be when we look at, you know, boys are rowdy and loud and girls are gentle and caring. Yeah.
00:09:14
Speaker
culturally in India and also like across the world. I mean, that's how the outlook was. The fairer sex or the, you know, the female sex was weaker and, you know, men were stronger. And so they were, you know, kind of seen as louder and, you know, braver and all of that, which is not true. So culturally, it kind of plays like that. And
00:09:43
Speaker
And social identity labels is something that we also saw in the study that I was doing, relate to how individuals categorize themselves and others within social groups. So these labels can be based on factors such as nationality, religion, ethnicity, or other group of allegations. They actually shape a person's sense of belonging and influence their behavior within social contexts.
Emotional Reactions to Labels
00:10:12
Speaker
So I am still heart of the party is something that a person can take very seriously. And even when they're having a bad day, they would probably try to, you know, work the party and exhaust themselves emotionally, physically, mentally, all of that. Good example of that.
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. When you said boys are Audi, the one example that I thought of cultural labels was how, you know, British soccer fans are considered to be really, really loud. And somehow, you know, you could be a
00:10:48
Speaker
middle grade teacher in Britain and doing a wonderful job being a teacher to young students. But when you show up as a soccer fan, you are allowed to be rowdy because that's what British soccer fans do. That's the label. Yeah, that's the label is allowing you to do. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker
And if we kind of come back to your study, I'm sure that there were some statements that came up from the study as well, in the sense of how people kind of
00:11:19
Speaker
put labels on themselves? First off, this questionnaire that I had created that was run across 150 people as the first pilot batch of this research. The one thing that came out very apparent was the most chosen response to the feelings that labeling generated was 40% of the people said they were concerned.
00:11:49
Speaker
about labeling. While 27% said they were indifferent, 14% said it's acceptable, and 19% felt manipulated. So those are the four words, concerned, indifferent, acceptable, manipulated. So I know the connotations of each of these words is what it is. However, none of them
00:12:19
Speaker
says that there was no reaction like it mattered one way or another it mattered and in one of the sections I had asked people to tell me or to record how they felt about a certain label and interestingly and I want to like give up a couple of statements here that
00:12:41
Speaker
through a lot of light and recognition about how these labels are impacting. So one of the responses was that the label gave me a high level of confidence and a sense of self assurance. I know I can find creative solutions to problems and that I can think in ways other people won't. I also naturally fall into being a leader of most groups. And I noticed that people do start to look at me for direction.
00:13:12
Speaker
I was so impressed with that reflection. Another person said, you know, labels have been my north star as I moved through the downs of my life. They have kept me structured based on which create a new chapters in my life. They inspired me to live up to a reputation. Again, all really things that point out that labels do have
00:13:39
Speaker
a power to drive your life in a manner that you aspire for. But much like the coin has two sides, I also had these other statements that labels sometimes empowered me and sometimes disempowered me as a burden of being good, mature, responsible, and it was too much.
00:14:08
Speaker
labels can also be self-imposed and the way I labeled myself impacted my self-perception. So positive, negatives, yes, both impacts happen.
Labels as Self-Fulfilling Prophecies
00:14:26
Speaker
Awareness, we were talking about earlier that awareness is the key on how the label is working for you or how much power you have given to this label.
00:14:37
Speaker
The other thing, and this is something that was really revealing from the study was that labels carry a burden, a weight, and have the power to be self prophetic, which means if I think about it long enough, far enough, if I say it myself, if I hear other people saying it about me, even if it is not possible, I will make it possible.
00:15:04
Speaker
So for example, if someone kept telling me, and this is a true example, this client who associated himself as an introvert thought he was an introvert, but a lot of people had told me, oh, you're an introvert because you don't like to be in parties and you don't like to be in big gatherings and
00:15:30
Speaker
Why he thought that he may be an introvert because the world came around and already diagnosed him as an introvert, he started aligning to the introverted behaviors even more. Yeah, sometimes even using them to hide behind what he did want to do certain things. Yeah. And it needed one of me to come there and say, have you been tested, like, as a clinical psychologist tested you, that you're an introvert, he looked at me like, what
00:15:59
Speaker
What does that mean? He says, no, I know. I say, how do you know? Are you a mental health professional? Do you have the skills, capability of testing? And we had a good laugh after that. Of course, his life changed after that, but the moment he stepped away from that label. But true example, and look at the impact. Yeah.
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah, impact. I think that's, I really like that line that you just said, which is that labels have the power to be self-prophetic. Just like you're giving that example of somebody calling themselves an introvert. And yeah, using it. I mean, a much simpler example that I could think of was
00:16:40
Speaker
you are fat. Now, if the world is telling you you are fat, you will start, you are constantly saying, okay, I'm fat. And then you give yourself permission to eat that extra scoop of ice cream. Because anyways, I'm fat, big deal. How does it matter? You know, days like that. But the same line can also be used to create a positive impact in the sense that how you say what, what you say to yourself and
00:17:06
Speaker
whose input on that is the one that you're giving power to, I think makes all the difference. It could be positive, it could be a negative impact. And it can be something that we tell ourselves about ourselves based on our observations about the world around us. But what you say, and more importantly, how you say it is what makes all the difference.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, what a great point Neha. It reminds me of this conversation I was having with a client. And I think because this topic is so dear to me, I'm like so charged right now I'm getting all of these inputs from the universe. So I wanted to share that. There was this conversation I had with the client and we were discussing about
00:17:59
Speaker
him not really landing on what he wants to do next in his life. This is an accomplished individual, 50 years old, has done a whole lot in his life, has an opportunity to go places now, decide what he wants to do next, and is kind of stuck. And while we were talking about what really motivates him, and you know, what are some of the things that he'd be excited about,
00:18:26
Speaker
I asked him I said so tell me when you're having a good time at work how do you feel and he thought for a moment looked up and then he smiled and he said you know I'm David and for a minute I was a little lost because I knew he wasn't David but he said you know David and Goliath I'm David so I said oh and
00:18:51
Speaker
He went on to describe how he had prevailed, how he had fought like David did, how he had, you know,
00:19:02
Speaker
gone upstream, what the struggle was, what the strength that he leaned into and how proud he was and of course, I could see that pride in his tonality, the sudden change of energy when he was talking about him aligning to David and
00:19:22
Speaker
You know, me, I think is like one big read out of mine. It keeps going. Yeah. I was like, something's not sitting right. And I just, um, I looked at him. I said, so you're, you're proud of that. And he says, yes, I'm so proud of it. I come out on the top in every situation. I said, Hmm. Okay. Um, but do you think your relationship with David is so strong that you kind of look for places where you,
00:19:52
Speaker
can be David because you think you are David. He just kept looking at me and there was like a moment where something changed. And he said, damn, I have pushed myself and I have fought through most of the things in life
00:20:14
Speaker
because I found myself in these situations. And that's the other question that I always ask myself, how do I land in such situations where I'm constantly fighting? So that self prophetic and the label kind of informing you in that space, you're taking pride in it. It doesn't allow you to even have a possibility of existing like a Goliath, for example.
00:20:42
Speaker
He's got like a 25, 26 years of experience. He's led one of the highest positions in multinational organizations. And yet he's saying, I'm David. I was like, could you be Goliath for a minute? Let's just, let's just, he's laughing now. He's like, Oh my God. Like I was fighting the wrong battles. What is wrong with me? And yeah, that was a moment that we had. Yeah.
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah. The thought that came to my mind when I was listening to you was that you're looking at the same situation, but who you decide to show up as will completely change what you see in that situation. So if you look at the situation from the point of a Goliath, you are looking for abundance. You are looking, you're looking from a belief that
00:21:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, I'll get it. I'm Goliath. What's the big deal? Right. And therefore, you're like, okay, so this is great. What we have is great, because I'm Goliath, I have everything great. Now let's build on it. And then when you're looking at it from a point of view of David, you're like, Oh, damn, this is so messed up. Oh, I have to fight through this. And then it almost looks like
00:22:02
Speaker
It's almost the difference between the view of an ant and a view of an eagle. Like the same mole hill can be Everest and it can be a mole hill depending on where you're looking from it. Correct, correct. So ideally it's the lens. It's the labels decide the lens that we use to
00:22:23
Speaker
see the world. Yeah, so all we need to do is flip the equation and start looking at the lens and not the label. So yeah, so interestingly, so what's coming to me now is that when we are talking about labels, the internal narrative plays a big
Changing Internal Narratives
00:22:46
Speaker
part.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah. Because if I align to, let's say, a David, then I'm thinking a certain way. If I'm thinking a certain way, I'm acting a certain way. If I change that narrative, the internal narrative, maybe the lens changes and maybe my experience of that event or that situation changes. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And also, at the same time, of course, it's easier said than done to create new narratives and to change your mindset. But I think
00:23:14
Speaker
The place where we need to kind of start from is once you have identified the label and the impact that it creates, when it comes up again in your thoughts, you need to question it. You need to find evidence and you need to create scenarios. Just like you mentioned with this client, you think you're David, okay, fantastic, but what if you were Goliath? How are you going to look at this stuff?
00:23:39
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I was talking to another, another client of mine, and she was like, you know, but when I do my part, and nobody else does their part, and I feel like if I ask them, then they will, they will be upset. And therefore, I end up doing everything. And I'm unhappy about the fact that I do everything. But there is, there's nothing to be done. You know, I'm taking so much stress and this and that. And I'm like,
00:24:05
Speaker
So, which means you have asked the other people and they have said no. She said, no, I haven't asked them, but I know that they will say no.
00:24:18
Speaker
I am the one who does everything is the label. The impact is that I'm doing everything and therefore I'm getting burnt out. But I'm never questioning the fact that I'm the one who does everything. And if you just question that fact, and if you find evidence that other people are willing to do something or not, that's when things change.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Totally. Even the labels that we give ourselves, like as moms, we, we tell ourselves that we need to be like, you know, all encompassing, like be there, do that, deliver on time, all of that. These are labels. And
00:24:58
Speaker
that internal narrative. And the other thing that was coming out of the study was that people who align very strongly to labels have a very tough, harsh, critical internal narrative. So for example, if I'm aligning to that mum label that I have defined as having certain
00:25:21
Speaker
attributes. If I don't measure up to those attributes, I'm actually going to be very tough on myself. I will not show kindness to myself. I will push myself even if I was physically, emotionally, mentally not capable in the moment. So, aligning to labels is also being tough on yourself in most cases.
00:25:44
Speaker
whether it's a positive, I mean, being a super mom is like a good label. If somebody else is telling you you're a super mom, you feel good about it, right? Yeah. But the connotation, the lens that we give to it when we are evaluating ourselves, that again, decides what impact it's going to have on us. So that's another thing to be mindful of. Yeah. Yeah. Don't get that dried down by it.
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Don't break your back to fit into that box. Literally. Oh my God.
Coaching Strategies for Label Awareness
00:26:17
Speaker
What a graphic example of this. I'm reminded of a contortionist. Yeah. And I got like the fetal position, fitted into a box.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, but you know what, I realize that as a coach, when we are looking at these labels, what are some of the things that can tell us that labels are at play? And what are some of the things that can help our clients? So much like you said, question it as a question, as a coach, try to find evidence.
00:26:58
Speaker
And in finding evidence, actually...
00:27:01
Speaker
asking your client to get feedback from others is also one very great way to defy the beliefs around the label. So I think I'm great, but somebody says, no, not so much. And now we do a 360 and eight people say not so much. So there is some reality to that. I'm not great because I'm late, mostly. I don't make my deadlines. So you now know, I'm making it very contextual, corporate terms and all of that.
00:27:30
Speaker
The other thing is those strengths assessment assessments that you get. There are many free strengths assessments that you can find online and sometimes taking it for ourselves enables us to be consciously aware. We may not be really consciously aware of our strengths and also in our awareness know what we can lean into in times of need when we are questioning ourselves or when we are down or you know when we need
00:27:59
Speaker
to reach in, what do we really reach in for? Does that make sense to you? Yeah, it totally does. I've also taken a couple of strength assessments and maybe we can put a few links in the description for people to go through and try them. And what I have seen is that what these assessments do is literally
00:28:24
Speaker
Put it on paper or the things that you are naturally good at, ones that require less work from you. So if you find yourself in a situation where you are the ant and not the eagle, you could possibly think of those things and
00:28:42
Speaker
shift the lens for the life. Yeah. Yeah. You know, interestingly, we were talking about that introverts and extroverts. I was, post that conversation, I actually went up and found some reading material on introverts and I realized one third people in the world are introverts.
00:29:06
Speaker
Um, and there's a great book called quiet and it's written by someone called Susan Kane. Um, the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking. And it's, it's this book that explores the introversion as a personality trait. Um, now if it's a personality trait, it's another thing, but if it's a label that has no backing is another thing. So the people I, I am,
00:29:32
Speaker
talking about this is because I didn't mention introverts and now I don't want to just leave it as a label. So that book Quiet by Susan Cain is one great book that can create an insight. It explores the power in introversion and how introverts can thrive in a world that often values extroversion. So any of our listeners who actually align to that label,
00:30:00
Speaker
You can actually read this book, find more about what it means to be an introvert and actually use it or leverage that information to your benefit. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And it maybe also will help people to, like you said, understand whether it's actually a label that they're giving themselves or it is something that is part of their personality trait. And, you know,
00:30:29
Speaker
But I'm also landing on the fact that, let's say if you do have this label and this has been something that has been with you for a long time.
00:30:42
Speaker
you may or may not be able to successfully change this self view. And you might actually, like we established earlier, might actually use it for your benefit in certain contextual situations. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The idea is to exist with the awareness on how much power have we given to our labels.
00:31:06
Speaker
And are these labels that we hold so true and so closely, are they actually serving us? I mean, at the end of the day, what's the point, I think is the question that I would, is there a point in doing this? And I want to now leave our listeners with this one question. So what label have you attached to yourself lately? Think, think.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. And in a very, it sounds so easy, but it's so difficult to answer because when you sit to write, you realize that
00:31:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. In the link, in the link of this podcast, I think what we'll do is we'll put in the study, the paper, research paper on labeling, so that if anyone wants to go deeper into what are some of the insights that are coming from it, they can go through that. I also want to put in the link for the
00:32:10
Speaker
for the questionnaire that I had used that actually starts the dialogue, the inner dialogue for exploration. So I want to put that it's a Google document. I know it is
00:32:23
Speaker
30 questions long, but each question is a contextual and has a, like a, a place to, to trigger the next thought. So just bear with me. It's interesting. It's revealing. The study is good. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would, it would definitely help even for us, right? I mean, even for yourself to get more, to get more
00:32:52
Speaker
differentiated responses might help to increase the impact that the study can eventually have. And I would urge all our listeners to give it a shot. Because it is anonymous, it's almost like talking to yourself and just giving yourself some answers. And while you are doing those answers, you might land on some interesting things. Yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
Seems like this is a good place for us to pause until next time. What do you think? Yeah, I think I think today I'm all talked out now. Yeah. That's fantastic. Listeners, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to us. Do write to us about what you thought of this conversation and any other topics that you would like us to explore in the next episode.
00:33:45
Speaker
If you liked what you heard, if this resonated with you, we would appreciate it. If you could take 30 seconds, follow us on our adventures and share it with someone who may need it. And of course, hit subscribe to stay up to date. Thank you and goodbye.