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Episode 238: Ashkan Soltani Stone and Natale Zappia Rock Out with 'Rez Metal'
130 Plays4 years ago
Ashkan Soltani Stone and Natale Zappia co-write the book Rez Metal: Inside the Navajo Nation Heavy Metal Scene (University of Nebraska Press). They riff about getting out of the way of the story and the collaborative process.
Show notes are at brendanomeara.com and consider becoming a CNFin' member over at Patreon, patreon.com/cnfpod.
Keep the conversation going @CNFPod and let us know what's on your mind.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Res Metal'
00:00:01
Speaker
The University of Nebraska catalog had come my way and in that catalog there was a book and it was named Res Metal. Inside the Navajo Nation heavy metal scene. So you know I had to jump in the pit.
Meet the Guests: Ash Khan & Natale Zapia
00:00:27
Speaker
From Exit 3 Media, I'm Brendan O'Mara, and this is my podcast, the creative non-fiction podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. This week, I speak with filmmaker Ash Khan, Sultani Stone, and historian Natale Zapia, go by Ash and Nat.
Cultural Significance of Navajo Metal
00:00:50
Speaker
about that book and the movie documentary that they made about the heavy metal scene in Navajo Nation. It's a slim little book that stemmed from the movie. It's more of like it's kind of a transcript of sorts.
00:01:04
Speaker
It's a good read, and it's a really great subculture. It's just out of the movie. In the book, they pair well. It's like peanut butter and chocolate. Or maybe the more at-the-metaphor is a double kick in a big four-string bass. Am I right?
Engage with the Podcast Community
00:01:21
Speaker
Anyway, you have that to look forward to, so you want to keep the conversation going, of course, on social media, at cnfpod.
00:01:28
Speaker
I gotta tell you, deadline for the submissions of issue two of the audio magazine on the summer theme is just two months away. It's eight weeks. It's time to hustle. And if you want to listen to it, you'll have to be a patron where you'll get exclusive access to the magazine, transcripts, and more. Check it out, patreon.com slash cnfpod. I know I ask a lot
00:01:55
Speaker
I asked for written reviews of which we are stalled, but let's say, you know whatever. You know the drill. I asked for your time and attention, which of course is so splintered and fractured, so it's amazing that you give me an hour every week so we can celebrate the amazing people who come on this show.
00:02:14
Speaker
And in the case of Patreon, I'm going a step further and asking for a few bucks. So like for 75 cents an episode, $4 a month, you get the audio mag, transcripts, and other exclusive content that I don't really advertise much. It just kind of pops up every so often that I only put on the Patreon page.
Supporting the Creative Non-Fiction Podcast
00:02:37
Speaker
Think about it. The more who enroll, the greater the likelihood that we can support the writers who make the cut and put money in the pocket of the people who are doing the work. I want to honor that. It's work, it's a craft, and I don't mean to not pay people because I devalue it. It's just that I don't have that in the coffers.
00:03:00
Speaker
Raising enough funds through Patreon helps pay for the production, and I want to put some of that money right into the pockets of writers. It might not be a lot, and you're certainly not going to be able to retire early on whatever you get from making it into the CNF pod audio mag, but at least it's something that acknowledges the immense work and craft that goes into doing the thing. Right? I have to believe that.
00:03:25
Speaker
Show notes in the newsletter jams at brendan omero.com hey Got a got a guest lined up already for the February CNF and happy hour I'm kind of getting on the ball with this one for February But you got to be on the list to get the code that lets you behind the velvet rope You dig once a month. No spam can't beat it
00:03:46
Speaker
I'll have a lot more to riff about at the end of the show in my parting shot. But for now, why don't you jump in the fire and spit out the bone?
00:04:09
Speaker
Why don't you guys tell me a little bit about how you guys got into this kind of storytelling and then ultimately the path that led you down to this road that for now culminates with Res Metal.
Nat & Ash's Collaboration
00:04:22
Speaker
So we're both colleagues at Whittier College which is based in Los Angeles, a small college based in Los Angeles.
00:04:30
Speaker
Ash was running the film studies minor there and I'm a historian so I was in the history department and my field of expertise is indigenous history and early American history and food history kind of all the kind of the overlapping layers that I'm interested in.
00:04:47
Speaker
And also just really curious about this food, music, things that are culturally unique to each group of people, but also our devices to transcend culture. And I love that tension. That's what I love about art too. And I think Ash and I, and I'm sure Ash, you'll chime in as well,
00:05:14
Speaker
That's what connected us, you know, this curiosity and these kinds of projects and stories that are, you know, what you just said, Brendan, that you kind of like, wow, what an intersection there. Right. And I think we both of us love that. So, you know, we kind of connected. You know, I learned I was learning about Ash's work and and then he graciously invited me
00:05:38
Speaker
into this project that he was already a few years into, going to the reservation and working within Navajo communities around this. You know, I had some brief work working on the Navajo reservation about 20, 25 years ago. I was interested in environmental justice and how Native people
00:06:00
Speaker
use kind of environmental stories to kind of fight back, you know, to push back to gain justice, but also to re, you know, to kind of dip into their traditional ecological narratives and then use that to kind of bridge the gap with, you know, modern science, et cetera, that you have different forms of knowledge. So I love this idea of music and novel, you know, especially metal, because I'm not a metalhead, you know,
00:06:27
Speaker
Now I am kind of an honorary one. They think they made me that, some of them. But I didn't really have that. And I'll let Ash jump in. But that's kind of where we kind of connected there. And then I went with
Traditional Meets Modern in Navajo Metal
00:06:41
Speaker
Ash. I tagged along on one of his trips and got to go to a bunch of the concerts and meet a bunch of the folks. And we thought that putting the
00:06:53
Speaker
you know, taking my skills as a historian to kind of tell a little bit of the history of not just this scene, but also the native music in general, how they have that intersection of, you know, so-called, quote unquote, traditional music.
00:07:06
Speaker
and kind of, quote unquote, modern music, how they intersect in across Indian country. And I was just fascinated with that. And then Ash, of course, has this, you know, tell you about all his experiences. So we thought it was a great way to kind of compliment his film skills, you know, his, you know, accomplishments with, you know, my interest in writing histories. So that's kind of how we came to this.
00:07:32
Speaker
Nice. And how did you get into film study and making films, Ash?
00:07:40
Speaker
It's a goes long story. I'm originally from Iran. And when I was back in Iran, coming from a very cinematic culture, you may know, the Iranian system was like a world renowned cinema. And although I didn't really practice, didn't do film when I was in Iran, I left in my late teens. So I've been living here for many, many years.
00:08:04
Speaker
And I was doing theater over there. And when I came here to the United States, I want to pursue theater.
00:08:11
Speaker
I had limitation because of accents. And I didn't want to be typecast as an actor and a pursuit film. I pursued film and I primarily made narrative films. And in my first children regret school, I made a documentary film about Western Shoshone's two Shoshone sisters down in Nevada, Elko Nevada area. Not been fighting about the ancestral land. A very activist film about the land rights
00:08:42
Speaker
and indigenous land rights, et cetera. And that film was a very successful film and opened a lot of doors for me, one bunch of awards, et cetera.
Ash's Journey from Theater to Film
00:08:51
Speaker
And since then I started doing more and more documentary films, although I do narrative film as well. So that was like 16, 17 years ago when I made more than that, that documentary. And in between I did some other documentaries about different issues.
00:09:08
Speaker
But before I start working on the Res Medal, my latest documentary, I work on another music documentary, a feature-length documentary called I Know You Well, which is about this cult musician named Jandek. He's a very well-known musician in the underground music scene. And it was a very difficult film movie. The music is very difficult, very niche music.
00:09:35
Speaker
But I realized while doing this film that I'm really interested about using music to deal with other issues. And I think in this case, Jan Legg is a philosopher and performing artist, more than I would call him even better than a musician.
00:09:53
Speaker
to me. And that's really inspired me to look for the stories that, you know, that, you know, use as music to dive into something more serious. And while I was looking for the next subject matter, I read this article in New York Times about this councilman.
00:10:09
Speaker
in Toru, New Mexico, which is a Navajo Nation territory. He's a Navajo Nation councilman. And he was talking about his own metal band called Testify, which is also in the book, as well as in the film. And he actually mentioned briefly about the heavy metal scene. And I contacted him. This is late 2015, almost five years ago.
00:10:31
Speaker
And I started going there, started traveling to the Navajo reservation and it starts filming over there. And things start shaping going to 10 different directions. And here you go, five years later, you have a book and a feature length film based on this experience. And it was just an amazing journey for me.
00:10:51
Speaker
Oh, that's great. And for you guys, what is the appeal of, let's say, documentary film or even history and true stories and the stories that are yet to be uncovered? Where's the juice for you guys in those true stories?
00:11:10
Speaker
I think one of my greatest regrets in life, I don't have that many regrets, but there's one regret that I have. I always want to play an instrument. And I always imagine if I become a musician, what kind of musician I would picture myself. And I think I would always imagine, I never want to be a classical musician.
00:11:30
Speaker
someone has to work on the under restriction and constrained, very structured. I always consider myself like a, I want to be a jazz musician, somebody who actually is, you know, very improvisational and, you know, and, you know, and improvised by what was having in the moment. And I think documentary filmmaking is the closest things for me at least,
00:11:52
Speaker
to become a jazz musician. My camera, it's very much given me that freedom to go wherever I want, which in case of narrative filmmaking,
00:12:05
Speaker
It's not necessarily the case as much because there's not much rehearsal involved and then you have a script that you have to follow. And then it's very appealing form as well. But for me documentary filmmaking, there's something very authentic about it. And I think it's not something that is only unique to me. I look at the Amazon and I think even Netflix, usually the best selling in Amazon, the top 10 best selling books, I can, the last time I checked, they're all nonfiction.
00:12:34
Speaker
I think there's a growing interest in nonfiction and documentary works, both in book, as well as entertainment and film. And I think that's probably even something more encouraging for us to pursue that art form. Wow. That's a good one. I don't know how I'm going to beat that one. But yeah, for me, this is some similarities, I think.
00:13:04
Speaker
It's a couple of reasons. I mean, this counts kind of tripe, but it's the story. I think as a historian, I'm more interested in going back to my first inklings of historical consciousness were two things. One was just this intense curiosity for what people are doing and what are the stories they're telling themselves and how they're interacting with, you know,
00:13:34
Speaker
their family, their friends, community, you know, what drives them. So that's, that's definitely a writer's, you know, that's a typical kind of writer's curiosity or, you know, a novelist to say, but also, so I was interested in that. And then indigenous thinking about native history. And I remember being, you know, maybe middle school, seventh grade, I think it was when I learned about the Cherokee removal, which was the force removal of the Cherokee nation from
00:14:04
Speaker
North Carolina, Georgia, the Southeast, Tennessee to about 800 miles to Oklahoma in the 1828, 1830s. And I remember when I learned about that, I was just so outraged at the injustice of it and that it was a story that just kind of was just told in the
00:14:26
Speaker
And you just learn about it in school. And I just remember that wasn't enough for me. It wasn't enough just to kind of just sit with that and go to the next thing, that there was something that was unfinished there. So for me, this kind of nonfiction, to your question about where the juice is, I guess, it is about this
00:14:48
Speaker
the stories that helping communities, particularly native communities, but other communities who don't get, it's not just restricted to native people, but communities who are on the margins, communities who don't get their story out there or could use more of their story out there. So it's kind of being an advocate in a way, but I don't really like that type.
00:15:10
Speaker
that word advocate, but you know, kind of just sharing sharing that abundant, you know, the abundance of human creativity, right, and kind of just sharing it in another way in my own unique way. And then also, again, this idea of as a non native person to
00:15:30
Speaker
to really get people to understand this deep. It's a history that's still here. I mean, it's such a fundamental part of not just the US, but the Americas, the world, any place where indigenous culture has been removed or erased, and you could find that everywhere. And what that means, what does that tell us about the future? What does it tell us about the past? What does it tell us about our
00:15:59
Speaker
our own humanity. So that kind of drives that's why I'm so interested in food too and how it intersects and again food and music you know these things that are just to get to Ash's point you know it's like such a manifestation of you know that creative impulse is such a beautiful part of our humanity that you can never celebrate it enough and talk about it enough.
00:16:24
Speaker
Well, there's something to be said, you know, food and music are two of the primary things that bring people together, right? Exactly. Exactly. I think again, that's why it's kind of that's, that's where Ash and I really do. I think that's where we connected a lot. Um, I also love the idea of, you know, food and music as well. It's like this hidden in plain sight type of thing. You know, you could be.
00:16:48
Speaker
doing one thing but then you're you might feel some x y or z about this particular group of people or you might have certain types of prejudices or bias for whatever reason but you'll listen to the you'll be listening to their music you know that that that emanating out of that group right because you you can't help but tap to the beat right or same thing with food right it's the same kind of like you said it's subversive in that way so i love that subversive nature of those uh
00:17:19
Speaker
you know, those expressions, those human expressions, because there is a, again, it's like a, there's a timelessness to it, but then there's also an evolution. And I think this is what's so great about this story is, as well, you know, I'm sure we'll get into is that it's not like, you know, the assimilation story, you know, you don't assimilate to heavy metal.
Heavy Metal as Cultural Expression in Navajo Nation
00:17:39
Speaker
It's not like you just happen to, you know, kind of passively enjoy it, right? It's like, it's an all out,
00:17:49
Speaker
immersive transcendent experience when you're just banging in your head, right? So I think that's like a, you know, it's an interesting way to kind of think about that. So, you know, Native people were not only embracing it, they're saying it is Native.
00:18:08
Speaker
They don't say, oh, we're adopting the white man ways, or we're selling out on our cultures. There's none of that. There's a little bit of that. But for the most part, Nash will tell you, because he spent the most time there. That's not how it's broken down. I think just to add to what Nat said, very interesting conversation about the food and music, and particularly heavy metal music.
00:18:36
Speaker
There's a degree of physicality involved in both. I mean, the food, of course, you know. But in case of heavy metal, the marshbeats, I think when you go there, it's very ritualistic and very physical. And I think that's something that's very, make it rather appealing. I mean, there are other forms as other music as well. Like, for example, hip-hop is also very popular over there.
00:19:03
Speaker
But there's something very unique about heavy metal music. And I think, you know, not only among the Native American, in this case, Navajo nations, but also, you know, in general, there's this sense of physicality, which is very unique to heavy metal and punk music. And I think that's something that makes it even more immersive, in a certain degree.
00:19:28
Speaker
and listening to classical music, which is still considered very immersive. But in a way, it's not as physical as, let's say, heavy metal music. For sure. And speaking of mosh pits, superficially, they look violent and uninviting. But if you find yourself in one, as I have in the past, I'm definitely in my post-mosh pit days, but I'm often on the fringe of them if I'm at a concert.
00:19:56
Speaker
If someone falls down, like the pit stops, they like literally like pick them back up, put you back on the feet, and then then the elbows and the kick and everything starts in the bashing around. It is incredibly inclusive, even though I don't know if you don't know, it does look uninviting, but it is one of actually the most inviting places at a concert. When I was in the midst of a bunch of mosh pits with my camera,
00:20:21
Speaker
And people were so gentle. You know, this is like a big mosh pit, you know, with like very super excited people. Day and night, but I didn't drop. Nobody kicked my cameras. My cameras were, you know, and it was really, yeah, there's a degree of caring in the midst of this mosh pit, which is very, very interesting and very foreign to people who never experienced that. Yeah, I have to comment on that. I think I was, that was probably one of the things I was most struck by is this,
00:20:50
Speaker
the supportive nature of this whole scene is really, I found that to be really interesting. And it should, to me, reveal the, it was a shared language that was,
00:21:02
Speaker
you know, helped overcome a lot of these, you know, suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, these things that were afflict, you know, that continue to afflict parts of Navajo reservation. And it was seen as a music, which, as you said, Brandon, right, superficially, it looks like it's this loud, violent, you know,
00:21:21
Speaker
you know the typical uh you know the devil worshipper you know as it was as it's seen right or it used to be seen because it's kind of it's rough on the ears if you don't if you don't you know adopt the the mindset but once you give into it it really does kind of become the supportive
00:21:40
Speaker
almost like a cuckoo. It's just, it's kind of weird to say, but it felt cuckoo-like. And seeing the bands talk to each other and how they were, you know, just kind of, when we went to the, Ash, the place in Farmington, the, I forgot what the name of the, it was like a competition, right? At that one scene. You know, and everyone was just hanging out outside and talking, you know, just like, it was a really a warm scene for me.
00:22:09
Speaker
I've heard, of course, already alluding to how much I love Metallica, and I've heard James Hetfield, their frontman, talk about how heavy metal really saved his life and in reading res metal with suicide and alcoholism afflicting these reservations.
00:22:31
Speaker
heavy metal music and even country to some extent which is alluded to in the book like music is often what is you know saving people's lives right yeah yeah yeah absolutely i think you know and i think that's why uh
00:22:46
Speaker
For example, Heavy Metal is pretty much supported by, you know, the current president of the Navajo Nation, you know, which is like a, he's a metalhead and he's actually is a, you know, big part of our film.
Government Support for Navajo Metal
00:22:58
Speaker
He was a wise president on that time. I think they acknowledge that, that, you know, Heavy Metal, it's really, I mean, one of the issues in Navajo Nation is that, you know, it's such a huge territory, huge nation, that, you know, sometimes those communities are very isolated from each other.
00:23:16
Speaker
And having a heavy metal show, it's a major event because it requires bands to travel like three, two, three, four hours sometimes to go to a place and perform over there. And I think, you know, that's something, and I think the other thing is it's very unique about heavy metal scene in Navajo reservation. Many of those shows are very family oriented. You see the children there, you see adult older people over there.
00:23:46
Speaker
And that's also is very unique about that scene, heavy metal scene throughout the Navajo reservation. And I think, you know, I know the current government and the previous one, they would actually, you know, promote those, will host the heavy metal shows right in front of the window rock, in front of the office of president and vice president's office over there. And they continue doing this. They brought a couple of major bands to,
00:24:13
Speaker
Navajo Nation Fair, they brought testaments and they brought anthrax, I think. Oh, really? Yeah, I think it was anthrax a couple of days ago, a couple of years ago. And the year before the 2017, they brought testaments, you know, where they're... Love testaments.
00:24:32
Speaker
I love that. Actually, Chuck and they are interviewed as well. And I think that really shows that there's a growing, I think the leadership acknowledging the importance of the music.
00:24:49
Speaker
in the life of these youth people. You know, for example, and you can see like more and more younger people actually pursuing music. And one of the hopes that we are hoping to, one of the things that we are really trying to achieve with both film and book is to inspire people, you know, by, you know, by telling inspiring stories of young people who actually, you know, overcoming all these obstacles.
00:25:13
Speaker
And I think that's something that's very unique about that scene, that the family oriented, and that's how everybody's joining these shows. And I think there are some shows that are, you know, you have to go 21, et cetera. But a lot of those shows are just open to public.
00:25:31
Speaker
One of the things that's in the book, and especially in the film, is that many of the bands, the government supports this. There's the Native American Music Foundation. I don't conform. I'm sure there's other bands that go into the high schools, and they're teaching the next generation
00:25:51
Speaker
you know, not necessarily how to play metal, but how to play guitar, how to play instruments, how to find that outlet, how to, as you said, Brandon, like save their lives through the music, right? I think to find a meaning through the music is,
00:26:07
Speaker
That's one of the common threads in every single interview and all the ones we transcribed. And in the film, this is the idea that the music is helping them find that meaning, helping them navigate.
00:26:23
Speaker
is the challenges. Yeah, I love in the book, too, that that JC, you know, one of the DJs that you guys spoke with, you know, he said, you know, metal is justice. And I love that. It's a little echo and a little nod to Metallica, too, in their fourth record. But it is it is something that does seem to. Yeah, it just has like a there is that justice embedded in it. There is a it's just baked into the music.
00:26:53
Speaker
And I think as a former music itself is very egalitarian. Heavy Metal is very DIY and really you can start forming your band. It doesn't mean you gotta be the best heavy metal band. Obviously it's different between the very
00:27:12
Speaker
great one and the one that's just starting. But because I think of the nature of the heavy metal, and I think point to a certain degree, because that's what it is about, you can actually start a band with very little musical training, at least to start. And I think that's, again, something that you see a lot of these young kids, like 14, 15 years old, getting together and forming a heavy metal band over there.
00:27:40
Speaker
And of course, they're going to be getting better and better. But I think that also really contributes to the popularity of heavy metal music as a very dominant musical form among the youth over there, that DIY component of it.
00:27:57
Speaker
I mean, there are a lot of lyrics. Yes, there are good lyrics, but a lot of them you cannot even hear lyrics. It's very primal to a certain degree, a lot of time. And I think that's what makes it very appealing. There's a lot of element of scream and drumming, which it's really
00:28:21
Speaker
One can find some similarity. Actually, I talked to a couple of people, some medicine women and a couple of elders, and they're talking about one of the reasons that might be very appealing is the whole idea of scream and drum. It's very drum driven. It's very drum driven.
00:28:38
Speaker
and same as traditional Navajo music. And I think maybe that's something else that it's very appealing to the youth and also the parents of this youth. I mean, one thing that we have to, we should not overlook. I mean, a lot of these youth are getting exposed to heavy metal music because of their parents, which are in their forties and fifties right now. And those parents are growing up in a very conservative household. And the only type of music that were available to them was like two channels, the preachers,
00:29:07
Speaker
and the country music and then the third like classic rock music you know Ted Nugent's you know Kiss and all that stuff that they grew up and a lot of those generations including that this Councilman himself is a good example of that you know Councilman Ed Yazzie who is actually the still a Councilman
00:29:24
Speaker
I mean, his father was a preacher, but he got him his first Ted Nugent album, and then he became a rock and roll fan, and then he took his own son when he was a couple of years, two years old, to a Van Halen show in Phoenix, and now they're in the same band together.
00:29:45
Speaker
The father is a drummer and the son is the lead vocal and guitar over there. So it's a very interesting synergy going on over there and cross-generational synergy is happening over there in that scene.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah, and it seems that, you know, having that sort of generational thread, you know, bound through music and in particular the heavy metal, it's just, it's a way to kind of borrow what you were saying, Nat, like when you were describing the mosh pit, that in a way it's protecting and cocooning, you know, the people from really falling into despair and financial, physical, emotional, mental ruin. It truly
00:30:29
Speaker
It truly is binding people and giving hope to the disenfranchised. I think in the book we focused on the spaces where it was performed. That was as important.
00:30:45
Speaker
as anything else, right? Ash, like the grandma concerts, you know, the, of course, you know, the, the slaughter tour, you know, these different venues that, as Ash said, it's such a, you know, it's so big, the Navajo reservation, you know, the size of West Virginia. It takes hours and hours to get from A to B. You know, you'll be driving on the road and you'll see the sign spray painted, like a plywood that says, you know, res metal left, you know, you just put an arrow on this dirt, you know, cattle road.
00:31:15
Speaker
Like, you know, that is just such a, I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I love. I think it's.
00:31:21
Speaker
you know, you go into a special moment, right? And that's the, and that is, there is that ritualistic aspect, you know, that we all, it's not just about native people, of course. It's, you know, it's like when you go to a concert, you're communing with that space, those people, that moment. And the music is almost, you know, it's just as important, sometimes less important than just being in that cocoon, if you will. That's so, that's really,
00:31:48
Speaker
Again, it's the transcendent. I think one of the goals of this project is to inspire people to transcend whatever boundaries are placed upon them and to use their creative expression, whatever it might be, to do it.
00:32:07
Speaker
And Ash, you were alluding to this earlier, too, about young people or maybe not even young people starting a band or something. You don't need any permission. You just need a little bit of initiative and some resources, of course, to track down some instruments.
00:32:26
Speaker
if you want to start a band start a band if you want to start making films like of course everyone has a camera in their pocket now like go make a film there's no permission just go out there and do it and it's nourishing to be able to be creative in this way and it's it's really uplifting the community absolutely absolutely but also you know i want to say you know my
00:32:47
Speaker
I'm very careful about saying a sense of rebellion, but not necessarily about the culture themselves or the community. What I think personally, I think is more something about proofing the outsider.
00:33:04
Speaker
that define the stereotypes that we associate with the Native Americans and Navajo in general, especially when it comes to music. I mean, one of the things that you hear a lot is, and I'm actually quoting a few people, that Navajo music is not just flute and drum
00:33:27
Speaker
and, you know, a distance hawk. And I'm actually coding word by word from a Navajo community.
Challenging Stereotypes through Music
00:33:34
Speaker
And I think, you know, that's something that it's, you know, when I talked to a musician, they just want to say, oh, and we want to tell people that, you know, we can, you know, jam as good as anybody from like Los Angeles, all the way to New York, you know, we are as good as anybody else. And I think that something is very important that, you know, that, yeah, you live in that area, but, you know,
00:33:57
Speaker
There is a great metal scene that we really associate with a bigger, more urban area. And I think that's something very interesting about how vibrant it is. I think it's vibrant in many other places because heavy metal, it still has its own follower, but it's not as big of a scene that let's say 20 years ago. But I think that's, it's not the case in Navajo reservations.
00:34:26
Speaker
That is a great point, I think. That's another thing that struck me in this, especially when I went there with you. Gerald, right? Gerald Cecil? Gerald, yeah. He's one of the bands. He's a promoter of I Don't Conform and just an amazing guy. I mean, all of them were. But I love what he said. I think we quote him. He says exactly that. He says, and I love the gumption.
00:34:55
Speaker
Metallica started in the Bay Area. CBGB is in New York. Res Metal is here. And he's putting it that scene, their scene. And that without any, he's just not talking out of his hundreds of bands that are doing this. Like you said Dash, it's like Anthrax goes through Gallup. Whoever's a metal band, they'll end up
00:35:24
Speaker
going through Gallup in the middle of nowhere, you know, using that quote as a quote in the air quotes in the middle of nowhere to because they know that they're going to have Navajo metalheads and Zuni metalheads coming, you know, and filling up to watch them.
00:35:39
Speaker
There's a scene there that's kind of, it's unique and it's, you know, he's putting himself in that, in the pantheon, if you will, of the, in the record discollege, I don't know how to, if it's historians, we call it historiography, right? Or a filmography, right? It's like, he's putting that scene in this kind of history, this narrative of heavy metal, which is awesome, I love that.
00:36:05
Speaker
And all the more important is the validation that the Navajo Nation is getting, especially I don't conform with having Fleming Rasmussen in whose track record speaks for itself. And the fact that he's there putting his heft and validation behind what they're doing, it's definitely shining a light on this subculture that not getting that cred, but with him, it's like, okay, now let's pay attention to that.
00:36:36
Speaker
It's very interesting because, you know, one of the questions that we asked Fleming, because he flew, he traveled to, I mean, it's part of the film, you know, you always amaze the condition where they rehearsed, you know, I mean, there are pictures of it, you know, but I think also in the film, in the 100 degree hits, no air condition, this little Hogan in the middle of a,
00:37:05
Speaker
like a junkyard. It couldn't be any more like heavy metal. And then with summer in the level of flaming Rasmussen, which is like a legend in this thing. But he mentioned something when I asked him about why did you pick up
00:37:24
Speaker
I don't conform. What was so interesting because they send a demo reel, you know, and very interesting, you know, because, you know, he, they couldn't even, he said like, Oh, I'm going to give it a try. I know he's not going to respond to me. This is what Kyle said, the lead singer of I don't conform. And when he replied back to them, you know, and, uh, they were just amazed. And when I asked him, what did you see about this band? I mean, because you can pick up any band you really want, you know, you have the credential for it.
00:37:51
Speaker
And he said something very interesting. He said that what was so appealing about hearing I Don't Confirm was this aggression that he haven't heard in a long, long time in metal music. And I think that was what's really appealed to him. I mean, he knows there's a lot of things that need to be improved. As a matter of fact, the demo reels come very different from the final project, but the aggression,
00:38:16
Speaker
was something that was very appealing to him. And I think in general, you can expand that to the whole scene, that aggression. And I think I kind of like constructive anger aggression. It's not just very negative things. I think I kind of see it as more like constructive things.
00:38:36
Speaker
But I think this aggression makes this heavy metal genre at its own, the res-metal genre, and makes it a very unique thing.
00:38:48
Speaker
When I was listening to I Don't Conform a Little Bit before I spoke, before I got on the phone with you guys, their sound and that aggression, it was very, it hearkened back to me to Metallica's first record Kill them All, to me, a rawness, a leanness, and just a youthful energy and aggression behind it. And I just, it really struck me. I was like, wow, this is great. And like you're saying, Ash,
00:39:18
Speaker
There's like a demonization of metal, but it's a great way to channel anger and disenfranchisement in a way that it just explodes through the amplifiers instead of other very self-destructive ways. It stays on the stage, you get drained out, and you affect change with the music. And it stays there, and it's constructive. And it's really inspiring and certainly
00:39:47
Speaker
with Fleming attaching his name to it and leveling up that band, the whole scene is going to level up and provide that kind of buoyancy for the whole culture. I hope so because I don't conform as just an example of many, many, many great bands over there that they need to get recognition. And I'm really hoping once this pandemic is over, I'm really hoping our film and our book
00:40:13
Speaker
also bring that, you know, additional attention to that. Because there's so many other bands that need to be discovered over there. Not only on the heavy metal part. I mean, as we mentioned, hip-hop. It's a great hip-hop artist. And I'm not into hip-hop personally as much, but I mean, there's one hip-hop artist who's actually in the future in our film.
00:40:33
Speaker
And it's great. Even country music, they're great stuff. I mean, obviously, I'm not a country music fan, but they're great musician artists. And I'm really hoping that, you know, people put that narrative behind because historically, if you look at a lot of art and documentaries and, you know, although they are dealing with different subjects, but there's all of this narrative of, you know, the narrative of, you know, some people call it like a poverty porn.
00:41:03
Speaker
some people call her like, you know, misery porn. You know, there's like, I mean, these are the things that I heard from natives themselves, you know, comparing, you know, when they're talking about, you know, film that is done about them. And I think Nat and I, we made this decision that, you know, we're gonna, you know, really not present our case from an activist point of view, rather than just, you know, telling the story.
Rock and Roll Film without Activism
00:41:26
Speaker
I mean, like, in case of film, I made this commitment to make a rock and roll film.
00:41:31
Speaker
My film is a rock and roll film that takes place on Navajo reservations. Some rock and roll film happens in Seattle. Seattle is a character.
00:41:44
Speaker
But it's not about, and it has its own issues. But it doesn't overwhelm everything else. It's just the back is the context over there. And that's something that we are hoping to achieve with both the book and the film. To deal with something bigger than that many times.
00:42:05
Speaker
told narratives in a lot of PBS documentaries, a lot of different documents. I'm not saying they're bad. They're great because they are for the different purpose. But I think it's a little bit redundant. And I don't want to see any of those myself. So I want to make film that I actually want to watch.
00:42:24
Speaker
and read, so that's, I think, for us, was a mission. I think that was our, just to add to that, yeah, also, yeah, and you can see that in our text is, we were very, with our publisher and reviewers, and, you know, there was a couple of times where they, because it's an academic, you know, it's, you know, Nebraska is an academic press,
00:42:50
Speaker
They wanted us to kind of fall, and they didn't push for that. But I mean, some of the reviewers would ask, so why aren't they doing this or that? And we push back and say, well, that's not what this project is about. It's about this music and how this community, its relationship with that music. And it's from there. It's what they think about it.
00:43:14
Speaker
And I think that's, you know, they kept it lean and clean in terms of the story. And that's, and we just let this, you know, we let their voices speak for themselves and sing for themselves. Oh, that's a great point. How did you as storytellers show the
00:43:30
Speaker
the requisite restraint of the head sometimes there's a heavy hand of of a storyteller and trying to impart too much sort of authorial voice on it instead of just letting the story in essence tell itself so how did you guys arrive at that as the way to just let the story in a way speak for itself and you guys are more or less sort of a shepherd sort of you know ushering the story in instead of it being really heavy-handed
00:43:56
Speaker
Before you even comment, I want to give Ash the full credit because I feel like the book for me, in my mind, has its own life and all that. But I really do see it as
00:44:14
Speaker
It's like playing, it's like reading music. You know, when you're a musician, right? It's like if you get out of the way, you get out of the way of the music and then you're just a vehicle for delivering it. And that's the best form of any kind of art. Yeah, you have your unique voice and all that, but in the end, it's something that the medium is carrying you. So we try to do the same thing to kind of mimic that with this.
00:44:43
Speaker
the way we wrote about it. And that's the style of all his films.
00:44:51
Speaker
I, as an Iranian filmmaker, when I started making film, I took a completely different route than many people who are in my position or belonging to a different culture, country, different background pursue. It's a very popular thing that people tell their own stories and really focusing their work about
00:45:14
Speaker
the identity, the background, the issues that are related to the community that are coming from. And I make this decision from early on to actually avoid that because I
00:45:24
Speaker
Frankly find it a little bit like boring and this is just my personal things, you know, and I think What really interests me? It's not making about something I know and I'm very emotionally attached to Rather making about something that I'm very curious to want to Go to a journey of discovery to learn about those things and I think
00:45:49
Speaker
What's really but and also I want to make film that
00:45:56
Speaker
comes from, not from an activist standpoint, because, you know, although they're very valuable work, however, I think they have a, they expired. Sometimes there's expiration dates, you know, that kind of film. And I'm gonna referring to my own film that I made like 17, 18 years ago about Western Shoshone. Again, that film was very successful film and opened a lot of door for me.
00:46:20
Speaker
But will I even make that film against what I did now? Because I think that film was, it was a little bit heavy-handed, I would say that. But I think that distance, that emotional distance from the subject matter and that sense of curiosity and journey of discovery helped a little bit with not representing the story in a heavy-handed and emotional way and really
00:46:49
Speaker
observing what is unfolding in front of the camera and you know in this case in book as well.
00:46:55
Speaker
I probably should have asked this way, way early, but such as it is. How did you get clued in to the res metal scene and then not being necessarily metal heads? What was it about the subculture that was just like, ooh, I want to tell these people's story? Again, because the fact that there's stereotypes, a lot of films I see about Native American
00:47:24
Speaker
is the old narrative of problem, alcoholism, poverty, et cetera. And for me, the heavy metal music in the Navajo reservation, wow, I would never imagine this. But I read that article
00:47:41
Speaker
That was something that really triggered my curiosity. This is great. I was looking for extraordinary things and unusual things that you don't expect to happen. I think because maybe my own concern with the stereotypes and defying the stereotypes, but not in a very subtle way, not just
00:48:08
Speaker
in a very obvious way. But I like the subtlety. And I think just the story, the combination, the synergy between heavy metal and Navajo reservation, it's an amazing, because even before that, I didn't know there's a rock and roll scene that is happening on the indigenous community. Like many other people, I thought it's mainly maybe country music and very traditional music. I did not know that.
00:48:33
Speaker
or maybe like individuals here and there, but the scene to that extent was very unusual for me to discover. I came across an episode of This American Life a couple of weeks ago, and they're just celebrating their 25 year anniversary. So they're replaying some of their past shows. And one of the producers we're talking with, of all people, Phil Collins from Genesis about breakup songs.
00:49:00
Speaker
And he said one of the best lines that I think applies to everything, whether it be documentary film or writing or music. He just says, like, what makes for a good song is a simple song sung simply. And that really struck me. And like what you guys are talking about, you just want to be objective, let the story tell itself. I'm like,
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, you could have a heavy hand. You could be in the movie or in the book, but instead, you know, you basically, you know, you crafted a, you know, through rigor and hard work, a simple song sung simply here. Yeah. I mean, we can't, like the suicide, the mass suicide is a major issue over there. And if we talk about it, both in film and everything, what we intentionally decided not to go and talk to a health, you know,
00:49:47
Speaker
officials who talks about these things. We intentionally try to avoid that. This is there. It's present. You can feel it. You don't need to talk about poverty when you see it on the image, the condition that they are living over. I don't need to talk about, oh, people leave this. It's there. I think Nat and I, I think over explanations,
00:50:11
Speaker
both in cinematic or explanation and in books, it's a little bit tiring to me. And I think we don't underestimate our audience. I believe that audience in general are very observant and they pick up things. You don't need to talk about things when they're so obviously there. And as I said, sometimes subtlety is way more powerful.
00:50:36
Speaker
than, you know, obviously whining and, you know, talking about things. I don't, I do not like whiny films or whiny book. Let's just put it this way. I think, you know, you kind of, you know, I love that. I'm going to use that Phil Collins. Now I'm thinking of all his songs, of course.
00:50:57
Speaker
But yeah, I think that's kind of our next project is very different. We're looking at, we're now going to be tackling food and we're looking at the future, the history and future of farming and humanities and thinking about philosophy and the intersection of all that and this next generation of farming and, you know, farming as a storytelling device and how that interacts with
00:51:24
Speaker
Again, with all the things we've been talking about today. It's the same kind of thing. A lot of the very important films.
00:51:32
Speaker
And books, I'm sure you can't keep away from them now. It's exposés of food system, and the industrial food system, and the foodie thing, and the sustainable agriculture. All this, I mean, you could turn on Netflix as a whole. You can basically make a whole Netflix food channel now.
00:51:55
Speaker
about that and so we wanted to kind of it's the same thing we wanted to take a different tact and let some of the you know it's like one of the motivations of some of these farmers on the on the on the humanistic side you know what's the creative how does farming a creative expression
00:52:12
Speaker
you know, and what happens when you think about that. And it's the same, we're gonna use the same model of just simple, I'm gonna use that Phil Collins line, simple tone, song simply. I think that's really true. What was the experience like, you know, collaborating on this and coming from different backgrounds and different media to then come together and make the film and then, you know, put together
Reflecting on Collaboration
00:52:35
Speaker
this book. And then of course, the projects that you have coming forward, you know, what's that experience been like for the pair of you?
00:52:41
Speaker
Between Us, me and Nat, it was one of the best collaborations I ever had. I cannot tell you how less dramatic, less stress-free, and just that's a great collaboration. And directors are usually known to be filmmakers, to be very individualistic.
00:53:05
Speaker
But it's been a great experience because I think because we are contributing very different things to the same project. And I think we're very much complementing each other. A lot of things that I am lacking, Nat is helping with that. And I think that's been an amazing collaboration. And I'm just very grateful for his contribution and help.
00:53:32
Speaker
collaboration with these projects, both film and a book. Yeah, well, I feel the same way, of course. And I think the other thing that, you know, this gets back to our, I mentioned the beginning, you know, how we got together, and we've mentioned it a few times, curiosity. I think we are really, I mean, in academia, especially there's, you're supposed to be curious, but, you know, we all know
00:53:59
Speaker
For those of us in academia, it becomes like any field, you know, it's, it becomes industry in a way you have to do the latter you get on the ladder you got to get tenure you got to do this you got to do that you're on your committees, you know you, you produce, you publish this because
00:54:16
Speaker
You know an external Demand requires you to and it's not you're not doing it because the reason you got into this world You know the life of the mind is to be curious is to have that incredible You know, it's an incredible privilege to be able to to have the space to test ideas out and to just kind of follow your those passions and I think
00:54:45
Speaker
You know, we, that's what, this is what drives us. I think that's what we had a lot of fun with it. And it was stress free because of that, I think, because you can't go wrong really when you're just kind of following that, those expressions and those passions. What makes for a good collaborative process? And, you know, what are the, you know, the conversations you have, you know, creative disputes and discussions about how best to tell the story? What are the mechanics of that?
00:55:16
Speaker
I think if we have, if one of us has, at least with our relationship, you know, we have different kinds of ways of, I guess, like outlining or, you know, basically get, like I'm a big outline guy. And so I'll kind of throw that at Ash and then Ash is very visionary and kind of very process oriented. And I think, you know, we both know how we are. So when we come to our conversations, we'll kind of prepare for that.
00:55:47
Speaker
you know, that kind of conversation, and then you utilize that to move forward. So, you know, a little bit of structure, but then also having the freedom to kind of go this way or that way. You know, having kind of the goalposts, I think, or, you know, that are far enough down the road that you don't feel the pressure, but then allow you to kind of stay on point, I think, is critical, especially when you're doing collaborations. I think we all have that.
00:56:17
Speaker
Also, in addition to complementing each other, I think the temper is also temper and pacing is also very important when you're collaborating with somebody.
00:56:27
Speaker
I think when Nat and I have the same share the similar temper, a similar pace. I mean, we both know that we're going to complete the project, you know, the task. So we don't panic and put the pressure on it. You know, I think that, and I think we both, it's not to me to call myself a level-headed, but we have the same temper. I think that's also very important when you're collaborating with somebody that, you know, you understand.
00:56:56
Speaker
It's almost like being a couple, like any band. There's a degree of long-term marriage, but it has that. It's a relationship.
00:57:13
Speaker
Well, whether you're writing a book or making a film, I mean, it is a long immersive project and it doesn't come together in a month. It comes together often over several months or several years. So yes, you do have to have like, you know, uh, complimentary temperaments and then also have a sheer love of the work to get you through the grind of it all. Because in the end, in the middle, especially it's, it's a slog and it's a grind, but ultimately, you know, you're all rowing in the same direction.
00:57:43
Speaker
I think trust and respect also. It's like, again, another relationship. We trust each other. We know we are in partner in this one. And I really respect Nat, both as a person, both as a scholar. And I think that, for his opinion, is very important for me. I may have some question here, but I don't dispute. It's more about discourse.
00:58:09
Speaker
than than a dispute I think that's the thing I mean I don't have any don't remember we haven't disputed over anything but we have exchange ideas so that's that's normal but yeah dispute and I think that's what made this collaboration from very unique and I'm really looking forward to continuing this collaboration with Matt I think yeah the respecting I think that goes with every
00:58:32
Speaker
you know, any creative, any endeavor really, it's like, you see them and this is part of the problem with our current political system, whatever side you're on, there's the lack of respect. We hear that all the time, but it's really true. It takes time and you can't just say, you know, you can't just demand it or you have to actually like,
00:58:55
Speaker
understand what that means and it takes listening and also knowing your shortcomings, right? This is why, like I said before about the book, I really do think that in this instance
00:59:10
Speaker
the book is following the lead of the skills in terms of the formatting and the visual. The first one has a little history, but really the way we're thinking of it was kind of cinematically as well. And I think that's kind of trusting that process.
00:59:30
Speaker
And then also, you know, with jumping into this new project together, you know, I kind of came in after Ash already started this res medal. So this will be another new kind of collaboration as well. That's what makes it interesting and exciting. I just want to add one thing before I forget.
Supporting Music Education in Navajo Nation
00:59:50
Speaker
Sure. All the proceeds for this book.
00:59:53
Speaker
We are donating it to this organization called Native American Music Foundation, which is the holding workshop for teens and youth music workshop for free at Navajo Nation's library.
01:00:10
Speaker
And they bring them on the weekends to teach them different things. And this money goes to support them and buying instruments for the youth over there. So I think if anybody purchasing this, it's going to go good, good, good, good cause, hopefully. Yeah. Nice. I'll be sure to link up to that too in the show notes whenever this goes live as well. Thank you. Yeah. Give as much juice to that as possible. Thank you.
01:00:36
Speaker
All right, well, thank you so much for carving out the time and talking shop and talking about the wonderful work you guys collaborated on. So I'm excited to, you know, share this with people and I can't wait for people to get their hands on the book and of course, go see the film. So thanks so much for coming on the show and thanks for the work. Thank you.
01:01:02
Speaker
Res Metal. How about that pretty rad stuff? Music can save people's lives, man, and can be the only drug you need. I'm not even a musician. If you can melt faces with that electric axe, why would you need booze and crank? Thanks for listening and seeing that for, I mean that, you know I do. Thanks to Ash and Nat for bringing their skill to the podcast to give us some insight into their collaborative process.
01:01:31
Speaker
That got me thinking about collaboration and teamwork. Filmmakers often pair up all the time. I has David Levine and Brian Koppelman, the Coen brothers. There's any number of filmmakers who do it. Bands do it obviously. But why must writing be so solitary? Why aren't there more book writing duos?
01:01:53
Speaker
I mean, a ways back I had Julian Smith on the show and he co-wrote Aloha Rodeo with David Wollman. They're both based out of Portland, Oregon, just up the road from me. And I just thought that was wicked cool. Why not divide the research and the writing and the editing among a couple of people working on the same thing? You know, why not jam together and put out a book?
01:02:16
Speaker
You know, writing has a solitary rap and it can be lonely, but it doesn't have to be. I'd love nothing more than to write a book with, you know, Bronwyn Dickey or Elizabeth Rush and just get after it. I'd love to write a book with Mary Pallone and Mike Sager and Greg Hamlin or Bryn Jonathan Butler. Like, how cool would that be to just like kind of put your heads together and see what sparks, see what that flint will do and see what fire ignites from knocking those two things together? You know, but I get it.
01:02:45
Speaker
There's ego. There's a charge to seeing your name on the cover and only your name. But there's always a team behind that name. Anybody who's anybody knows that there's always a support group behind the name. It's just not as overt as when you share it on the cover with a fellow CNF. I mean, I think that'd be really cool.
01:03:07
Speaker
You know, I have a few regrets in life. When I look back on it, not that many, which is kind of crazy. I feel like I have just a wasteland of regret behind me. But when I really think about it, there's only a couple and two that really stand out.
01:03:24
Speaker
You know, one was not transferring in college to keep playing baseball after I was cut, because it was definitely still good to play. And why not play college ball? Not many people get to play college ball. But as many of you know, I was pretty burned out.
01:03:40
Speaker
So didn't transfer whatever led to this who knows you might not be listening to this had I transferred and played baseball Anyway, the second thing is not pursuing Movie making with my high school buddy Pete, you know We've grown apart in recent years and you know with the birth of you know, each of his subsequent three children I lost more and more and more of my best friend
01:04:06
Speaker
You know, I get it. Every time a kid is born, you know, a friend dies in a lot of ways. Especially if you don't, well, pretty much exclusively when you don't have kids, because all of a sudden you're just kind of cut out. You know, you're a freak when you don't have them. So, but in high school.
01:04:23
Speaker
We made movies, we made these really funny detective movies. His last name is Mauda, of course is O'Mara, and it was always the, our little film company was called Maudo Mero Productions. And we were the Maudo Mero detectives. And they were just, they were actually really clever and funny.
01:04:39
Speaker
But nobody nurtured that in us like and said hey you guys maybe you should do this Did you ever consider maybe making a career out of at a filmmaking? Maybe these are the places you should go I guess people just thought it was just a stupid goofy thing and they'll outgrow it So naturally we stopped
01:04:57
Speaker
We wrote funny stories in english class to get we i usually read them whatever we came up with and i read them in the class in the class always cracked up in the teacher cracked up like. We were there really good tandem and with pete.
01:05:13
Speaker
Was always good at coming up with the seed of a great joke or a scene or a turn of phrase And he was the hammer so like a great volleyball combo like I could set him up and he'd spike that shit It was the the greatest of missed opportunities, but it reminds me of the power of writing with a partner You know maybe we should do more of that
01:05:34
Speaker
You know, I'd like to. Anyway, I'm going to get on out of here seeing efforts. I won't bore you anymore with Patreon and reviews and the social media and everything. You know, I'm here. You know where to find me and I will do what I can. But I will say this. I'm going to drop the price of the tier four thing on Patreon. It's $150 a month. I'm going to drop it.
01:05:59
Speaker
So that it's a thousand dollars for the year and it's gonna be called the 1k MFA I'll leave that as a little teaser check it out in the next few days as I have to move a few things around No better deal than that, bro. So do me this solid Stay cool. Stay cool
01:06:55
Speaker
you