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From Insulation to Critter Damage: The Two Sides of Snow and the Winter Landscape
3 Plays1 minute ago
In this episode, we discuss the effects of snow on plants. We explore the insulating properties of snow, covering benefits and potential drawbacks like the increased risk of plant damage from heavy snow loads or wildlife activity. We also address the impact of unusual weather patterns, such as prolonged warm spells, on plant growth and dormancy. Furthermore, we touch upon proper pruning techniques and the importance of choosing appropriate plant varieties for snowy climates. Finally, we advise listeners on protecting plants from winter damage and offer safer alternatives to salt for de-icing.
Prepare Your Garden and Landscape for Winter with These Tips
Winter Gardening Tips and Tasks
Snow in Your Landscape: Do’s and Don’ts
Winter Damage on Landscape Plants
Vole Issues and Management around Homes, Orchards, and Row Crops
Questions/Comments/Feedback/Suggestions for Topics: hortculturepodcast@l.uky.edu
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Transcript
Introduction and Snow Harmony Plan
00:00:17
Alexis
Snow, snow, snow, snow, snow. That's what we're talking about today, everybody.
00:00:19
Brett
Snow, snow.
00:00:20
Plant People
It's raining out today.
00:00:21
Brett
Oh, sorry. You only gave me four measures to come in, and then you stop.
00:00:26
Plant People
Yeah, didn't you just say we had a Rupp Arena game channel?
00:00:27
Alexis
Yeah, we were goingnna we thought about a harmony to bring you all in, just to tell you we're talking about snow, but.
00:00:29
Jessica
If you all, yeah, if you all know white Christmas. Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:00:33
Brett
We could do let it snow this, let it snow quick carol in rounds.
00:00:34
Plant People
Yeah.
00:00:34
Jessica
ah
00:00:36
Brett
Remember, do you ever ever do that with a neuron?
00:00:38
Alexis
Oh, yeah, wait they have like the four little I'm with you there.
00:00:39
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:00:41
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:00:43
Alexis
I've seen a cute corgi video that is similar to that. um Not to always bring up corgis, but.
00:00:47
Plant People
You've seen a cute Corgi video
Corgi Video and Humor
00:00:49
Plant People
on everything.
00:00:49
Brett
like I feel like you might, you would, you would get along with a Corgi pretty well. Have you ever considered getting one?
00:00:54
Plant People
Or two, maybe.
00:00:54
Alexis
You know what? If I if I'm going to have one, I might as well have two. That's my thought process.
00:00:57
Brett
and
00:00:57
Jessica
Might as well.
00:00:58
Alexis
No.
00:00:58
Jessica
Why stop there?
00:00:58
Alexis
Yeah. But why?
00:00:59
Jessica
Maybe you should get another pair.
00:01:02
Alexis
That is a lot of hair.
00:01:03
Brett
What is
00:01:06
Alexis
well
00:01:06
Plant People
If you had one more, you could stack them all on top of each other, and they'd be the height of a real dog.
00:01:07
Brett
the marginal.
00:01:10
Plant People
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
00:01:12
Brett
who Yeah.
00:01:13
Alexis
They're very long though, yeah so I guess it would have to be.
00:01:13
Brett
Five Corgis, five Corgis in a trench coat kind of.
00:01:17
Plant People
Yeah, that's out that's what I was going for, Brad.
00:01:19
Brett
it
00:01:19
Plant People
Yeah.
00:01:20
Brett
checking in.
00:01:20
Plant People
Kind of a stack, kind of a Lego, Corgi.
00:01:22
Brett
mr fin I get to see them this week, so I'm very excited.
00:01:23
Alexis
it like
00:01:26
Jessica
oh
00:01:27
Alexis
You're gonna leave with hair all over you.
Benefits of Snow
00:01:30
Alexis
But um you know who, you know what, loves snow. Corgis love snow. Snow and Corgis actually do go together. They find it fascinating.
00:01:39
Alexis
um And you know, sometimes your plants can like snow. So did you all know that? Did you all know that snow is not all bad?
00:01:45
Plant People
Snow's not all bad. I mean,
00:01:47
Jessica
Yeah, it's not a bad thing.
00:01:48
Brett
I guess we'll call that a segue into our topic for today.
00:01:48
Alexis
Yeah. you're You know what?
00:01:52
Jessica
Yeah.
00:01:52
Alexis
You'll guess. I i literally started the episode with snow, snow, snow, snow.
00:01:55
Brett
Oh, that's true. Yeah.
00:01:57
Jessica
That was
00:01:57
Brett
we the cor game The Corgi was just a road to pit stop.
00:01:58
Alexis
The corgis were just like flying off left field.
00:02:00
Plant People
the courties was a bonus.
00:02:00
Jessica
a sidetrack, yeah.
00:02:02
Plant People
Yeah, it was just a bonus.
00:02:02
Alexis
um
00:02:03
Plant People
We never start off straight away.
00:02:06
Brett
are you all Are you all snow fans?
00:02:08
Plant People
Yes, I am.
00:02:09
Jessica
Yeah, to a point, I think.
00:02:11
Alexis
Yeah.
00:02:11
Plant People
Yeah, to a point to where I'm not.
00:02:13
Brett
what does What does that mean?
00:02:13
Jessica
Yeah.
00:02:14
Brett
like Like if you get more than a certain amount or if it sticks around too long?
00:02:15
Plant People
um Yes. Well, so if I guess guess if it's a really snowy winter and I have to work outside when when I worked on the farm, I love snow and cold, but I
Challenges of Snow for Farmers
00:02:28
Plant People
dreaded the mud.
00:02:28
Plant People
But now, yeah, I'd rather have snow and frozen conditions than mud.
00:02:29
Jessica
Yeah, but it is not good.
00:02:33
Plant People
I'll put it that way.
00:02:34
Alexis
Yeah.
00:02:34
Jessica
Right.
00:02:35
Alexis
I don't mind like when snow sticks around, which it rarely does in Kentucky, but the threat of snow now that I have like high tunnel structures is stressful because like there's always a chance that it's going to be get too heavy and it's going to collapse something.
00:02:44
Plant People
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:02:51
Alexis
and like I will never forget my very first winter with a high tunnel was the winter we got a lot of snow and we got a bad storm and my husband and I were up every two hours all night long just to go scrape snow off.
00:03:04
Alexis
Looking back on that, probably didn't need to do it with the amount of snow we got, but I was stressed.
00:03:09
Jessica
Yeah, it made you feel better, right?
00:03:09
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:10
Alexis
It made me feel better, but yeah, that was ah that was a long time.
00:03:11
Jessica
Let's take that worry away.
00:03:14
Alexis
and Then I told him, let's get another one, and he cursed my name. but ah Yeah, but so snow
00:03:18
Brett
It's like a little dry. It's like a little dry run on having a baby.
00:03:21
Alexis
yeah Kind of.
00:03:22
Plant People
Yeah.
00:03:22
Jessica
Every two hours, yeah.
00:03:23
Alexis
Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:24
Plant People
Constant maintenance.
00:03:24
Alexis
Which is why we don't have any because we were like, we already have high tunnels.
00:03:24
Plant People
Yeah.
00:03:25
Brett
There you go.
00:03:26
Alexis
What do we need babies for?
00:03:27
Plant People
We have snow. Forget this.
00:03:28
Alexis
Um, but yeah, I think I like snow.
00:03:29
Brett
Because they
00:03:31
Alexis
If it, you know, when it sticks around, it's like that constant threat of snow that stresses me out. Like once it's here and things are, you know, the roads are cleared off and your car
00:03:35
Jessica
yeah
Aesthetic Appeal of Snow
00:03:39
Alexis
is cleaned off.
00:03:40
Alexis
I'm chill.
00:03:40
Plant People
I grip on the foothills and there's no prettier time than when snow starts to come around the mountains and everything kind of turns white and the trees kind of stand out.
00:03:40
Alexis
I'm cool.
00:03:41
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:44
Alexis
Mm.
00:03:50
Plant People
It's such a pretty time. I mean, in the valleys, and they ah the valleys, I'll fill up with snow a little deeper, and it's so cool. A good snow.
00:03:56
Jessica
I like how it hits up on the side of the trees and kind of like paints them and with livestock like ah with cows if you like you see snow on top of them like that's a good thing like people think they're cold but that means they like have enough insulation.
00:03:56
Plant People
I've always appreciated that.
00:04:02
Plant People
Yeah.
00:04:11
Plant People
Insulation's working.
00:04:13
Alexis
Oh, because it's not melting is what you're saying.
00:04:14
Jessica
And so seeing the cows out there when they're all have like little snow on them running around
00:04:17
Plant People
We always had an Angus, and Angus are so pretty in this film, yeah.
00:04:19
Jessica
It's not melting.
00:04:19
Alexis
Like there's no heat loss.
00:04:20
Jessica
Yeah, no heat loss.
00:04:22
Alexis
Oh,
00:04:22
Jessica
So yeah, if you see a bunch of like cattle and stuff out and they are like the snow is not sticking to them.
00:04:22
Alexis
oh
00:04:27
Jessica
They're, you know, having heat loss and need more feed to keep them warm and nice and toasty. So yeah.
00:04:33
Alexis
Interesting. Learning something new every
Snow as an Insulator
00:04:36
Alexis
day. Well, similar to cows, we like snow on our plants for a couple of different reasons.
00:04:41
Jessica
Right.
00:04:42
Alexis
But the first one you already mentioned is insulation. And um I know that that surprised me when I first learned about it, that like snow on your plants actually insulates them.
00:04:54
Alexis
And I thought that was mind boggling, but like when you really dig deep dive into it, it makes sense, right?
00:05:01
Jessica
Mmhmm.
00:05:02
Plant People
Well, like a fluffy snow, I've heard that compared to like a down jacket. You know, there's air pockets in there and it's got this crazy good insulating value and it's so much warmer.
00:05:12
Plant People
The soil and your plant, if your plants are covered, ah you know, we get the question sometimes, well, if my small boxwoods or evergreen plants, arbovite or whatever, if you have small plants and people worry when, you know, we have a significant snow and it gets up over there, no, that's not going to hurt them.
00:05:28
Plant People
In fact, it's probably going to help insulate.
00:05:29
Jessica
Right. It's more like, I don't say dangerous, but harmful, right? When we get like these drastic cold swings and there's like no snow on the ground to insulate things that we see more damage from those temperature changes um versus if there is snow and stuff around them, probably not as much damage.
00:05:38
Plant People
Yeah.
00:05:46
Plant People
Yeah.
00:05:51
Plant People
And plants, if there's no snow on the ground, we have these and we we did have these conditions a couple years ago, ah it got really, really cold.
00:05:54
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:05:58
Plant People
And not only was there ah lots and lots of above ground damage, but a lot of root damage that we didn't see until the end of the following growing season.
00:06:04
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:06:09
Plant People
The plant just was un-thrifty, not doing well, but roots are much more tender than above ground parts. We don't think about it that a whole lot.
00:06:16
Alexis
Right.
00:06:16
Plant People
Normally, roots are protected you know by the ground, um ah tim the temperature being buffered. But when the ground is bare, like Jessica said, and gets really, really cold, and it will, if it doesn't have an insulation you know layer of mulch or snow or something like that, it'll tend to get a little bit colder.
00:06:35
Plant People
And that can damage roots. But it's those temperature fluctuations that's even worse, more than cold.
00:06:38
Alexis
for Yeah. And for reference, like if you're wondering like, Oh, how cold, you know, what is that difference here? There's like a, pur there was a Purdue article, um, that the air temperature was negative 14.
00:06:53
Alexis
There was nine inches of snow on the ground, which is a lot of snow. We usually don't get that much now in Kentucky, knock on wood.
00:06:57
Plant People
Yeah, we've had that.
00:06:57
Jessica
Mmhmm.
00:06:58
Plant People
I mean, we've had that much before.
00:06:59
Alexis
Um, we've had it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, a it's sort of like the hundred year flood that happens more than every hundred years, but whatever.
00:07:01
Plant People
They're a little bit north of us. Yeah.
00:07:03
Jessica
Yeah.
00:07:04
Plant People
Yeah.
00:07:05
Alexis
Um, uh, so negative 14 air temperatures, nine inches of snow.
00:07:06
Plant People
Yeah.
00:07:11
Alexis
your ah soil temperature was 28 degrees so negative 14 air 28 degrees soil I don't know what the the depth on that was I'm sure it said but i don't I don't have that in front of me but you know if if it was just the first couple inches then you know that you know eight inches down you you might be above freezing at that point with how soil temperatures you know move throughout the mm-hmm
00:07:14
Plant People
Huge difference. Huge.
00:07:15
Jessica
Yeah, huge.
00:07:34
Plant People
Yeah, once the top freezes, that insulates even further, the soil below it, so even better.
00:07:36
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:07:39
Alexis
But yeah, keeps those roots happy.
00:07:39
Plant People
But yeah, it's good stuff. Snow insulates. I mean, snow brings some problems with it also.
00:07:46
Jessica
Right.
00:07:46
Plant People
And ice is a different discussion altogether.
00:07:49
Jessica
Oh, yeah.
00:07:50
Plant People
That's ah a different discussion. But we mentioned small plants getting covered ah by snow. And I don't worry about the the smaller plants. But now, if I have a big plant, I'll pick a notorious one, like arbovitas.
00:08:02
Alexis
and
00:08:02
Plant People
that are multi-stemmed evergreens. And those guys, they get a heavy snow load on those and they will split if it's an extreme snow, very, very heavy.
00:08:14
Plant People
or either they're split or they'll they'll kind of bow down and and they may or may not come back up. If it's small enough, you can, some extension services have recommended, if you know you have a multi-liter arborvitae and I see people doing this, take a you know material or something like maybe stockings or pantyhose or something like that that's soft, tie those up if you know a big snow events coming um and try to keep those from going down altogether. But if they do go down,
00:08:42
Plant People
and i And I thought about this when I read this.
00:08:44
Alexis
And you by go down, you mean like they bow over, right?
00:08:46
Plant People
When they bow down with a heavy snow load, if they they go down and it's after the fact, you're trying to deal with the fallout.
00:08:47
Alexis
isn
00:08:48
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:08:52
Plant People
ah Don't go out there and aggressively shake those. The odds are that the wood may be frozen. You may be doing more damage than good.
00:08:59
Jessica
Right.
00:09:00
Plant People
In that case, I mean, yeah, you can't today mention taking a broom and gently removing the snow load and letting those come back up on their own. Don't do a lot when the wood's frozen. Definitely don't go out there. And I've seen people do this is just go to shaking them violently. You probably, that's probably not the best course of action to get the snow load off of plants. You can do further damage. So two different methods. You can kind of stay ahead of the curve a little bit by binding those plant, those multi-liter plants like arbivada.
00:09:30
Plant People
to keep them from going down, or you can very gently, if it continues to snow, remove some of the snow load. Just don't be real violent about it.
00:09:38
Jessica
right? Another kind of negative thing that we see if you have snow that lasts for a while, which Alexis mentioned, you know, in Kentucky, we usually don't have that every once in a while, we'll get some of those stretches where we will have a snow that lasts like a week or
Snow and Wildlife Risks
00:09:53
Jessica
so.
00:09:53
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:09:53
Jessica
But wildlife can suddenly that is not normally an issue can become an issue, right?
00:09:56
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:09:58
Plant People
It's a huge problem. Yeah, it is.
00:09:59
Jessica
Like,
00:10:00
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:10:00
Jessica
I think of we have some apple trees we planted this past year and fingers crossed we'll see how they come through since we had a big drought this past year. um But you know once you know a lot of those critters like deer and rabbits and other things, most of their food sources are covered up by snow.
00:10:18
Plant People
Yeah.
00:10:18
Jessica
They look for they move on to some of our young tinder trees.
00:10:22
Plant People
and fit it And if it's apple trees, voles do an incredible amount of damage in a snowy year.
00:10:22
Alexis
and
00:10:28
Plant People
And voles, sometimes called meadowmice, I hear people calling them meadowmice a lot here in my county, but oh my goodness. And you don't see any of that damage if it's a snowy winter, but they're active all winter.
00:10:39
Plant People
They continue having babies rapidly during the winter time. They're hidden from predators and then voles would get under there and unlike moles, with moles feed on things like grubs and earthworms, voles feed on plant parts. So if you have a young apple tree, they do a tremendous amount of damage to particularly young fruit trees and thin skin trees like that. ah But now if it's a vole damage, well like Jessica said, there's deer damage, rabbit damage, and then vole damage that I'm talking about, and you can tell the difference between all that pretty handily.
00:11:11
Plant People
by the level in which it occurs. Deer damage is going to be higher up, rabbit damage is up to 18, 20 inches. And then bull damage will be under the snow line typically because they're hiding from Jessica's falcons and predators, birds and owls and things.
00:11:26
Plant People
And that's why they get so bad. They're hidden from predators in snowy years.
00:11:29
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:11:30
Plant People
So their populations just explode.
00:11:31
Jessica
They're, they're quite happy.
00:11:33
Alexis
Yeah.
00:11:33
Plant People
They are very happy under the snow, well insulated under a snowy blanket. So yeah, critter damage. That's a great point, Jessica. It gets really bad in a snowy year, not only from larger animals animals like deers, but also voles with a V.
00:11:44
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:11:48
Alexis
So if you have snow that's going to stick around for a while and you've got you know some younger trees, go out and pull that snow back about a foot away from the trunk, because then there's that you know open space where they're exposed to predators.
00:12:01
Jessica
Mm
00:12:03
Alexis
And that will help keep them from girdling that those younger trees and plants.
00:12:04
Jessica
hmm.
00:12:08
Plant People
Yeah.
00:12:09
Alexis
ah
00:12:09
Plant People
And there's some hardware cloth that with a very small spacing, um very fine spacing that you can wrap if you're a homeowner only with a tree or two. You can wrap the trees in that, but you do kind of have to get that wrap a little bit under the soil surface to make sure the voles don't get up under there.
00:12:26
Plant People
And it also protects against rabbits pretty well, but I've seen rabbit damage. They'll go all the way around a young like cherry tree or, you know, apple tree. And just that tree is dead. There's no way it can come back from getting that cambium layer, you know, destroyed.
00:12:40
Alexis
Where you come out and your tree is half the size it was because the deer have come and nipped it and you're like, well, I guess I've got some more dwarf fruit trees now.
00:12:41
Plant People
Can't come back.
00:12:44
Jessica
Right.
00:12:44
Plant People
Deer. Yeah.
00:12:51
Alexis
So thanks, I guess.
00:12:52
Plant People
For all the benefits of snow, and there's a lot of benefits for snow, but the yeah, the wildlife is not, yeah.
00:12:54
Jessica
Yeah, did my spring pruning for me.
00:12:58
Brett
this is i mean This is something we've talked about multiple times before and I think it's just the nature of almost just any activity that we do, but certainly within agriculture and horticulture is that there are there are drawbacks and advantages.
Agricultural Impact of Snow
00:13:13
Brett
Because the same thing that you're talking about with the snow is the same thing we mentioned this on our episode about mulch that you can go back and listen to. And I can tell you that the number of rodents that we have in our backyard is probably tenfold what most people who have ah just a straight grass you know lawn have because we have all kinds of cover.
00:13:34
Brett
and food sources for them, and so it's this because we have a bunch of plants growing. and so you know Is the value of all that extra biomass and that the beautiful flowers and the food sources and et cetera worth it as a trade-off?
00:13:43
Alexis
Mulch.
00:13:48
Brett
In the same way with the the snow leaving it there. you know In this case, you're maybe you're talking about, as Alexis pointed out, small trees, but you want to set them off on a good ah good start. but There is, you know, and and when you, when you do something that's good for the plant roots, chances are an animal is going to be like, Oh, it's really nice in here.
00:14:05
Brett
I love what you've done.
00:14:06
Alexis
Oh, my gosh, thank you so much.
00:14:07
Plant People
Yeah.
00:14:08
Brett
Yeah.
00:14:09
Plant People
So much in nature is selecting for one thing and against another thing. I mean, there's very little of that neutral ground.
00:14:13
Brett
Yeah.
00:14:16
Plant People
It's always for something and to get something else, not in the negative way. It's just like Brett said, the decision is in the balance of things. Yeah.
00:14:24
Alexis
Have you all heard and I'm throwing this out there and i ah putting people on the spot, but like snow seeding for lawns?
00:14:33
Plant People
Yeah.
00:14:33
Alexis
Isn't what is I'm, you know, I'm not a lawn person, so I've never fully.
00:14:34
Plant People
Well, it came from.
00:14:34
Jessica
Oh.
00:14:36
Plant People
that it It doesn't work well for lawns, and it all goes back to years and years ago, and it's a farm practice that is ah efficient and effective.
00:14:38
Jessica
That's you, Ray. You got to.
00:14:42
Alexis
Okay.
00:14:47
Plant People
It goes back to frost seeding clover in farms, and it's you know freeze thaw sock was a big deal you know with ah plants and and soil.
00:14:50
Jessica
OK, yeah.
00:14:50
Alexis
Okay. Mm hmm.
00:14:58
Plant People
As the ground freezes and thaws, it actually heaves quite a bit. In some plants, it can do a massive amount of damage to roots because it'll shear roots off. But during that freeze thaw cycle, that ground opens up, closes, and if you take a tiny seed like clover and you snow seed or frost seed, I guess, it the I also hear it called frost seeding, you know, that that pulls those tiny little clover seeds into the soil.
00:15:15
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.
00:15:21
Plant People
But if you compare the size of a clover seed to your typical lawn seed, like a tall fescue or turf type fescue, it's much, much huger.
00:15:21
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:15:29
Plant People
It's a longer seed, not a round seed.
00:15:30
Alexis
Right.
00:15:31
Plant People
It does not fall into those frost cracks, so you will lose
00:15:34
Alexis
Monocot versus die-cot kind of thing, yeah.
00:15:35
Plant People
Yeah you lose the vast majority of your seats it doesn't help much at all with ah grass seed but it does work with clover if it's well time so it's just a completely different scenario but that was a kind of a straight line logic applied from a farm practice that that's pretty effective and then homeowners.
00:15:44
Alexis
Okay.
00:15:52
Alexis
So it's more based on the it's not see I've heard it called snow like snow seeding and I always thought it had something to do with like the melts and that you get you know water and stuff like that but you're saying it's more about the temperature fluctuation causing the soil to even thaw and um Right, right
00:16:06
Plant People
Yeah. Yeah. It's you, you need an opening because seed to soil contact is everything. No matter what kind of seeds you're talking about, you get that seed to soil contact with those openings from that, uh, freestyle cycle in the soil from clover.
00:16:19
Alexis
I see. I see.
00:16:21
Plant People
But yeah.
00:16:22
Alexis
Which snow can help prevent heath thaws because it's an insulator.
00:16:24
Plant People
Yeah.
00:16:25
Jessica
right
00:16:25
Plant People
It actually guards against that. Yeah. Cause it's better. It's interesting. It's better to to get cold and stay cold than it is to get cold, get warm, get cold, get warm.
00:16:32
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:16:34
Jessica
Right.
00:16:35
Plant People
Because that's a very destructive cycle to these fine hair roots on plants, these little tiny roots that do so much uptake.
00:16:39
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:16:43
Plant People
Yeah.
00:16:44
Alexis
Yeah. And even like buds, like above ground parts, you know, we have those, we always say those times of year and in Kentucky, it's usually like January, maybe beginning of February where it's like 60 degrees for four days and the bees are out and everything's going and we're like, what is happening?
00:16:47
Plant People
Oh, yeah.
00:16:57
Plant People
Hmm.
00:16:58
Jessica
And then yep.
00:17:01
Alexis
And then it drops back down again.
00:17:02
Plant People
Yeah.
00:17:03
Alexis
Um, but you know, a lot of, and I think a lot of our native species are you know more attuned to dealing with that, but.
00:17:10
Plant People
Yeah.
00:17:10
Alexis
ah You'll see a lot of things go out and bud and you're like, no, there's still two more months of winter.
00:17:13
Plant People
Forsythia, peaches, they all get, I mean, sometimes not so much, Forsythia can get wiped out because it's an early bloomer, but definitely peaches.
00:17:15
Jessica
Yes.
00:17:20
Jessica
Peaches.
00:17:23
Plant People
I mean, if you get a couple of years out of every 10, if you're a commercial producer, you're doing amazing. But you know, it's one of those things, ice is typically bad. It weighs a lot, but I mean, even a coating of ice on Buds can provide a little bit of insulated value.
00:17:37
Plant People
It's a little bit more complicated than just insulation. It's the release of heat energy, but Yeah, that's its own discussion.
00:17:40
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Which is wild.
00:17:43
Jessica
Yeah, and I think I've got like this, yeah, that could be a whole thing, like with the citrus orchards, how they do that.
00:17:45
Plant People
Yeah Yeah Yeah
00:17:47
Alexis
I feel like we've mentioned a couple of times, but like just a reminder, people will purposely put ice on things to protect it from cold.
00:17:49
Jessica
And it's crazy.
00:17:55
Alexis
Like let your brain, if you're not, you know, a physicist, um wrap itself around that.
00:18:00
Jessica
Yeah.
00:18:02
Alexis
ah It is mind boggling. ah to
00:18:05
Brett
ah Yeah, I think they call it, they call that icy hot.
Effects of Warm Spells on Plants
00:18:07
Brett
That's represented by Shaquille O'Neal.
00:18:07
Alexis
ah
00:18:09
Plant People
That's it. That's it. They stole the name.
00:18:09
Alexis
That's where that comes from.
00:18:10
Jessica
That's where that came from.
00:18:10
Plant People
They stole the name, yeah.
00:18:12
Alexis
That's where it comes from.
00:18:12
Plant People
Totally stole it.
00:18:13
Brett
I got a question.
00:18:13
Alexis
Look at us.
00:18:13
Plant People
That's it.
00:18:14
Brett
This is about this year and it's a slight, it's it's related to what we're talking about. It's not about snow per se.
00:18:19
Alexis
Sure it is.
00:18:21
Brett
Have you all seen this year? So in in the Southeast of of um the United States, the East, the United States, we had a very long, prolonged, warm fall, November into even early December.
00:18:35
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:18:36
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:18:39
Plant People
Yeah.
00:18:40
Brett
Did you all have you all seen trees? Did you all see trees budding out? ah See things prematurely budding out?
00:18:47
Jessica
Yes.
00:18:48
Brett
And yeah.
00:18:49
Plant People
yeah the Yeah.
00:18:49
Alexis
I had a red button in bloom and in like Thanksgiving.
00:18:51
Jessica
Yeah.
00:18:54
Brett
Yeah.
00:18:54
Alexis
It was wild.
00:18:54
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:18:55
Plant People
We'll see that with these, um, I'd like to call them unusual weather patterns, but it seems like the unusual, unusual weather patterns are becoming the norm in some cases.
00:19:04
Jessica
Yeah, our normal stuff now.
00:19:05
Plant People
Yeah. The normal is is all this change. But Brett, what I worried about with this kind of extended ah warm spells is I saw people putting things down like, you know, maybe fertilizer is fine. I mean, if you're fertilizing your lawn, we would we recommend that in the fall. But that also means your plants are getting fertilized.
00:19:25
Plant People
which is fine also unless you do something like, yeah, unless you do something like prune after the August the first or, the you know, first part of August.
00:19:27
Alexis
Tender growth.
00:19:35
Plant People
And then as a result of that pruning that initiates new growth, which responds to those warmer temperatures, and you have a lot of tender shoots going into the wintertime, that means you're going to have a lot of dead shoots in the spring.
00:19:37
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:19:42
Jessica
There.
00:19:46
Jessica
There is a ah house that I drive past down and in our downtown area, and Alexis is a part of this community, so she'll have to look next time. It looks it appears that all their boxwood hedges, they decided to prune late.
00:20:00
Plant People
Oh, yeah.
00:20:00
Jessica
And so there is about an inch of growth or so, maybe two that are bright yellow.
00:20:04
Alexis
Oh no!
00:20:07
Plant People
Yeah, that latter color.
00:20:07
Jessica
on every side like where you could see where they are like almost white right where they sheared it and that tender growth came up and then winter you know cold finally got here and when it got here this year it really like went from warm to very cold um right
00:20:08
Plant People
um
00:20:10
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:20:16
Plant People
Yeah.
00:20:19
Plant People
Just melted it.
00:20:19
Alexis
And yeah, this is an example of not going by the calendar when it's the temperature and going by the actual like outside things, because like maybe they've been sharing those boxwoods, you know, the week of Thanksgiving for 10 years now or longer, but because we were so long, pro so prolonged in the heat here that, you know, it didn't matter.
00:20:30
Brett
Yeah.
00:20:30
Plant People
yeah
00:20:45
Alexis
The plants, plants don't care what day of the year it is. Like they don't.
00:20:49
Brett
So in the, in the past, maybe they were, they were anticipating the plants going dormant earlier.
00:20:49
Alexis
track of the calendar earlier, right?
00:20:53
Plant People
Yeah.
00:20:54
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:20:54
Brett
And so when you cut it, it doesn't respond with growth, but since it was so warm, it did.
00:20:55
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:20:57
Plant People
Yes. Yep.
00:20:58
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:20:59
Brett
Yeah.
00:20:59
Jessica
Right.
00:20:59
Brett
I just noticed, I just noticed things not dropping leaf or not even changing leaf until way late some things.
00:21:04
Plant People
Yeah.
00:21:04
Alexis
Uh huh.
00:21:05
Plant People
I noticed that bread as well.
00:21:05
Jessica
Yeah.
00:21:05
Brett
Um, and, and a bunch of my, my bonsai trees, like I, I very specifically didn't do anything to them.
00:21:06
Plant People
Yeah.
00:21:13
Brett
And they some of them currently are sitting there with green pushing buds.
00:21:18
Plant People
Mm hmm.
00:21:18
Brett
you know I'm like, oh no, you're supposed to be sleeping.
00:21:19
Jessica
Wow.
00:21:19
Alexis
Mm hmm. Oh, guys. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:24
Brett
um
00:21:24
Plant People
Your cell walls are supposed to be thickening.
00:21:25
Alexis
I was very concerned about my red bud. I was like, What are you doing?
00:21:29
Plant People
Yeah.
00:21:29
Brett
Yeah. And like sometimes you'll see it like in the case in some cases where if you pull things in and you put it into ah like a warm environment, like ah your house or something, or like a hot hot greenhouse, stuff will bud out and it'll have that reaction.
00:21:42
Brett
But these have just been outside, um covered up when it was 14.
00:21:44
Plant People
I noticed a lot of strangeness like that brand.
00:21:46
Brett
I just put a tarp over them.
00:21:48
Plant People
Yeah.
00:21:48
Brett
But it's I was just curious.
00:21:50
Plant People
I noticed that.
00:21:51
Brett
Yeah. it's just because Because for us, it like the the killing like a killing hard frost was like A month late, a month later than usual.
00:21:59
Plant People
Mm hmm.
00:21:59
Jessica
Yeah.
00:21:59
Brett
Is that fair to say?
00:22:01
Plant People
Yeah, it was a longer and it was a pretty consistent warm spell, which, you know, so much of the plant world is, you know, weather dependent day length and temperature as far as hardening off and doing all of the mechanisms getting ready for winter that plants go through all the machinery shutting down, not shutting down, but slowing down.
00:22:05
Brett
Totally.
00:22:19
Brett
Yeah.
00:22:19
Plant People
But yeah, it's kind of concerns me when I see all that new growth knowing at some point we're going to get that hard frost.
00:22:19
Brett
i so
00:22:25
Brett
Well, I saw, yeah and even, I mean, as far as some, some plants, I saw Sean, uh, Sean Wright, who we've had on before down at the quicksand station. They had some, I think blackberries that like set fruit, like flowered and set fruit.
00:22:36
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:22:40
Jessica
Wow.
00:22:41
Brett
They didn't write them, but
00:22:41
Jessica
Yeah. We still had tomatoes, like cherry tomatoes and stuff. And if you like random, obviously peppers, because peppers will just keep going until like they really get that hard cold and peppers were still producing.
00:22:50
Alexis
I think I saw an agent.
00:22:52
Plant People
yeah
00:22:55
Brett
He was like, i want I want this to be over, but I'll keep picking.
00:22:55
Jessica
So.
00:22:58
Alexis
Yeah.
00:22:58
Jessica
Right.
00:22:59
Brett
Fine.
00:22:59
Plant People
Your garden just keeps going.
00:22:59
Alexis
I saw an agent friend who's garden is, you know, has a big garden, but i I think it kind of has a little bit of protection. Um, you know, maybe it's ah a around a Creek or something like that so that it gets a little bit warmer.
00:23:11
Alexis
But, um, he picked a tomato December 16th for breakfast, um, from, from the garden. And like I said, I think it's a little bit extra protection.
00:23:21
Alexis
My tomatoes died the beginning of December, but still like my tomatoes didn't die until the beginning of December.
00:23:27
Jessica
Right.
00:23:27
Plant People
No, Alexis, that's an Instagram tomato.
00:23:27
Jessica
Yeah.
00:23:28
Alexis
in Kentucky.
00:23:29
Plant People
Are you sure? Sure.
00:23:32
Alexis
I don't know, maybe not.
00:23:33
Plant People
It's real.
00:23:33
Brett
Yeah, that's like, that's like the fake, fake weight in the gym, you know?
00:23:33
Plant People
it's I mean, I heard people picking.
00:23:35
Alexis
He might not to be trusted.
00:23:37
Brett
He's got the...
00:23:37
Plant People
I've heard of people picking very late this year. They were picking really, really late this year.
00:23:39
Alexis
Yeah.
00:23:41
Plant People
So yeah.
00:23:42
Alexis
Makes me wonder what the insect if it's going to affect the insect populations at all.
00:23:42
Plant People
like
00:23:46
Jessica
Right.
00:23:46
Plant People
That's so random.
00:23:47
Alexis
um Yeah.
00:23:47
Plant People
I just never know what the predictor for that is.
00:23:49
Jessica
Well, I mean, I've already seen.
00:23:50
Plant People
I mean, we look at the duration and everything.
00:23:54
Jessica
insects active, like um when we've had like some of these warmer days that should, you shouldn't be seeing, right?
00:23:57
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:02
Jessica
But they're, they're still out there and active.
00:24:05
Plant People
Yeah.
00:24:05
Jessica
So that's
00:24:06
Brett
Well, sorry, I derailed us a little bit from the, um, you know, one, one of the things about the snow is the moisture, the moisture side of things.
00:24:08
Plant People
No.
00:24:09
Jessica
all right.
00:24:10
Alexis
Hmm.
00:24:13
Brett
And I think, yeah, and and it's, it's multiple different ones.
00:24:13
Plant People
That's the good thing. That's a good thing. Yeah.
00:24:18
Brett
And i so I, you know, try, I have to shoehorn, um, bonsai into everything all the time. But one of the things that we talk about with like design considerations of trees is thinking about where they come from in the environment.
00:24:32
Brett
And there's, um, there's entire like species of trees that existed really high altitudes where they get a lot of snow and those trees are evolved to spend months of the year under snow load.
00:24:45
Brett
Like the whole tree is completely under there.
00:24:46
Jessica
Mm
00:24:47
Brett
And one of the big ones is when that really dry air comes and blows through the mountains, it doesn't just dry the leaves out.
00:24:49
Jessica
-hm.
00:24:55
Brett
Instead they're underneath this big blanket. Um, and you'll, sometimes sometimes you'll see if they have a lighter snow or the tree gets too tall. it's poking up out of the um the snow, the top will die.
00:25:05
Plant People
Hmm.
00:25:07
Brett
And so sometimes well you you will kind of mimic that in your styling or whatever.
00:25:10
Plant People
Oh, wow.
00:25:10
Brett
but um So there's there's different there's that's just a different angle on the moisture retention on the leaf side, but there's also, so at the soil level, you had shared some thoughts, Ray, about that.
00:25:27
Plant People
as far as.
00:25:28
Brett
Just the note you had about ah snow covering, helpful.
00:25:28
Plant People
so Oh.
00:25:34
Plant People
Yeah, I'd say, well, that just goes back to the insulation and the value. And I love that the angle that you took there. And I never thought about that. as far as evergreens growing at higher altitudes and the effect that as has on, you're talking about the form of the plant, right?
00:25:49
Plant People
Like that could, that leading to that natural, beautiful meandering shape that we see, sometimes more horizontal than vertical.
00:25:53
Brett
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:55
Plant People
Yeah, that's so cool.
00:25:55
Alexis
and Central leader's gone, yeah.
00:25:56
Brett
like They're laying down.
00:25:56
Plant People
Never thought about that. Yeah, that's so cool.
00:25:58
Brett
And in the case of of taller trees, like a spruce, for instance, or some pines, this like really strongly downturned leaf pattern that when you look at it, it looks like almost like a Christmas tree, but then the the leaves actually, butt or the branch has been downward.
00:26:05
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:26:07
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:26:10
Plant People
Yeah.
00:26:13
Brett
It's because they that resinous bark, I mean, sorry, that resinous wood is able to bend, not break.
00:26:20
Plant People
Yeah, very sturdy.
00:26:20
Brett
And sometimes they do break off and it stretches downward.
00:26:22
Plant People
Yeah.
00:26:23
Brett
And that's that's entirely like this reflection of of its relationship to the snow.
00:26:28
Plant People
I found that ah farms that have like lots of trees are like, how can we like, you know, deal with snow and like landscapes? And I'm like, well, first of all, it starts with selection.
00:26:38
Plant People
Some trees are inherently, you know, have weaker branch angles ah that if you're, you know, planting that we call can't be looking at you.
00:26:42
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Looking at you, Bradford Pear.
00:26:46
Jessica
All right.
00:26:46
Plant People
All of them. Yeah. The ornamental pairs. um Like you don't want to select those all pairs naturally have an abrupt branching angle um But that's the number one thing is plant selection number two as we've already mentioned pruning is a well pruned and larger trees Don't need a lot of pruning if you do a good selection But if you maintain like lower shrubs and and things like that and pruned properly That does help a whole lot and proper pruning also means proper timing of the pruning.
00:27:15
Plant People
We've already talked about that so proper pruning throughout the year and
00:27:17
Alexis
Late winter.
00:27:19
Plant People
yeah do it when the plants are dormant and that leads me to the next thought of well what do you do if you've had a lot of snow in the wintertime and you have some plants that have some ice damage they've got some broken limbs and stuff um and Lexus just said it you know you can do go ahead and do some pruning once the weather fares up and if it's ah you know winter time late winter it's generally as long as the wood's not frozen it's safe to go ahead and do some maintenance pruning but you're not going to see the full extent of the damage until later that growing season so you're doing really two prunings one is at the time to correct obvious breakages the second pruning will be months later and boxwoods are a great example of that during that really coats
00:28:02
Plant People
snap that we referred to earlier in the podcast you're not going to see that damage for what months and months later those dead spots show up in some cases so ah really a couple couple you know times you're going to be pruning there to kind of bring things back in line ah recovering from and that's that's for ice and heavy snow loads but if you have some breakages you will be doing some of that cleanup in your landscape
00:28:17
Alexis
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
00:28:23
Jessica
Mm hmm.
Using Snow as an Insulator
00:28:28
Alexis
So just to kind of summarize a little bit here, snow is a great insulator. So for example, when we shovel our sidewalks or shovel general areas on the fields, around the structures, as long as we've not put any salt or something like that down, I could throw that, yeah, that's a whole other discussion.
00:28:45
Plant People
That's another whole discussion too. Yeah.
00:28:47
Jessica
Yeah.
00:28:48
Alexis
I'm talking fresh, clean snow.
00:28:51
Plant People
i
00:28:51
Alexis
um putting that like on your landscape beds is you know not necessarily a bad thing because it's going to help you know insulate a little bit, but you don't have to. um But just as an example, you can use that. So snow is a good thing. Don't panic. Try and tie up ah you know any branches if you've got especially evergreens.
00:29:12
Alexis
um
00:29:13
Plant People
Your plants are going to smother.
00:29:13
Alexis
that are very upright. if you can If you know you're going to have a lot of snow or a lot of ice where there's going to be like a lot of weight to put on those branches, kind of wrap those babies up so um that snow can't catch as easily and pull those down.
00:29:27
Alexis
um What else are we thinking about? Pruning, proper pruning.
00:29:29
Brett
if
00:29:30
Jessica
Mmhmm.
00:29:30
Alexis
So don't prune in the fall unless you know unless you've got a big broken branch or something like that. That corrective pruning and is is always welcome any time of year.
00:29:40
Alexis
But in general, you don't want to cut anything back in the fall. You want to late wait till late winter, and then you you may go back in after things have leafed out and cut back more dieback. You know, especially if we've had a um winter where desiccation is an issue, which means heavy winds, cold temps, no snow is usually when we start to see a lot of dieback. So ah just kind of focusing on those things really can get you through and uh, make winter ah a great time for your plants where they're soaking stuff up and rejuvenating themselves and enjoying the snow. And, oh, and if you've got young trees, pull snow back away from the, uh, base or do something that will help control any rabbits or voles that might like enjoy the snow cover and, uh, girdle your young trees.
00:30:34
Plant People
And that tree wrap has the benefit of protecting against frost cracking, which is another conversation I know, but another common winter problem.
00:30:34
Alexis
i
00:30:39
Alexis
isn
00:30:40
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:30:41
Plant People
So you get dual benefit from those tree wraps.
00:30:43
Alexis
I think I've had an episode on, yeah.
00:30:45
Plant People
We talked a little bit about tree wraps and its role in landscape protection for winter. Yeah, we we
00:30:49
Alexis
Yeah, so
Hiring Certified Arborists
00:30:50
Plant People
have.
00:30:50
Alexis
so look back.
00:30:50
Brett
one thing One thing I would say too is, especially if you have older trees and you're concerned about them and you don't feel confident or maybe you feel overly confident when you shouldn't, there's never a any shame in calling a certified arborist to come and do some tree work for you.
00:31:06
Alexis
Yes.
00:31:07
Jessica
Right. yeah
00:31:08
Brett
um There's a bunch of yeah ah compilations on YouTube of people dropping trees and branches onto their houses and cars, um doing in it themselves. And, you know, you saved, you saved ah a couple hundred bucks to then in turn, put a $20,000 roof on your house.
00:31:18
Alexis
Yeah.
00:31:25
Brett
So just, it's certified arborist can be your friend and they can, they can come and they can say, we think we need, think it needs it. We think it doesn't, but they are they're, they're pros. And so if you're, if you're wanting to do that.
00:31:35
Alexis
And when it comes to yeah insurance ah issues, if you, if they come out and they look at it and they say, you're, you're good to go or they do, you know, the maintenance that needs to be done on it. And then you still have. what is called, quote unquote, an act of God um happen where, you know, you get an insane storm that comes through and blows a brake on.
00:31:53
Jessica
oh we Yep.
00:31:54
Alexis
You have that as protection when your insurance company says, well, was this tree safe? You could say here and they're certified, they are licensed. If you hire someone, pay the money to get somebody who's licensed so that you do have that license and in sure and they will be able to provide and would be happy to provide their license information for you.
00:32:06
Brett
licensed and fully insured.
00:32:08
Plant People
Yes, look for that.
00:32:15
Alexis
so um If it's anywhere close to something that's important, make sure you hire somebody who knows what they're knows what they're doing.
00:32:20
Brett
Yeah. Yeah, I knew there's a lot of stuff you can do yourself and I'm not trying to in any way push anyone away from that.
00:32:24
Alexis
Sure.
00:32:26
Brett
But I think it's It is definitely, I have had, I know a lot about plants. I know a lot about trees and I have have had, and will soon have again, a professional come out and and do some cutting because I like my living room without a skylight at the moment.
00:32:42
Brett
So we're going to keep it that way.
00:32:43
Alexis
Yeah, that is a big old tree in front of your yard. Like your living room, it's like your whole house would go with the size of that thing.
00:32:45
Plant People
you
00:32:48
Brett
Yeah, it's a Bradford pair. So RIP.
00:32:51
Alexis
It's a big, it's one of the few Bradford Pears that has survived this long.
00:32:54
Jessica
Wow.
00:32:56
Brett
Yeah, it has, it has like, uh, really good genetics for branch angles and, um, it just, yeah, it's just for some reason.
00:32:58
Jessica
I was not going to guess that.
00:33:03
Plant People
I wonder if it's a true Bradford. There's a lot of ornamental pairs, aristocrats and others.
00:33:05
Jessica
Yeah.
00:33:08
Plant People
And I just wonder, makes you wonder when one survived in Dunselwell, huh?
00:33:09
Brett
Yeah.
00:33:12
Brett
Yeah.
00:33:13
Plant People
Yeah.
00:33:13
Brett
We're not going to push it any further though. We're gonna.
00:33:15
Plant People
ah Yeah, it's it's rolling the dice. It's a color. It's a pair, so they have weak angle.
00:33:19
Alexis
Thank you for your service. We're going to put in a native thank you.
00:33:23
Plant People
Yeah. And Lexa, it's just a plug for salt. um There's a lot of good alternatives to salt.
00:33:27
Alexis
Yes.
00:33:29
Plant People
It is not your landscape's friend. um Some situations we can't control if you live next to a roadway or a highway. The worst salt damage you're ever going to get is going to be from blow-by from cars.
00:33:40
Plant People
It's a vaporized fine particle salt. Solution goes on your plants. It will be foliate plants. I see it all the time.
00:33:45
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:33:46
Plant People
but If you're in control of your own landscape, ah there are a lot of alternatives to chloride-based de-icing agents. ah There is a CMA product, calcium magnesium acetate, that municipalities have been using forever.
00:34:00
Plant People
I'm starting to see that available for homeowners. It's less corrosive than tap water.
00:34:05
Alexis
Hmm.
00:34:06
Plant People
CMA, look for that on the bag. It's a really good product and it has almost none of the downsides of Typical chloride based de-icing agents so and it's much much more friendly to landscapes to concrete ah It's patent kid-friendly yada yada yada. It's a great product CMA look for that if you are going to need to do some de-icing
00:34:29
Alexis
Awesome. Well, we appreciate you guys joining us today. You can find us on Instagram. You can ah send us messages on there if you want at Hort Culture Podcast. You can shoot us an email. That email will go to all of us, and we've got that in the show notes. And so um be patient with us, but it does it does reach us, and we're happy to get to that. So if you've got show ideas,
00:34:54
Alexis
and want to send them over or have general questions about something we've talked about, please feel free to reach out. ah Leave us a review if you are so inclined so that the algorithm spreads our knowledge to the world. ah We appreciate that, but we're just glad to be here today. Thank you for the opportunity that we get to get together together and A couple of you listen and we love that and appreciate you all. So um anyways, we hope that as we grow this podcast, you will grow with us and that you'll join us next time. Have a great one.