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8. Theta | Beyond Leadership Titles with Travis Martin
25 Plays5 months ago
"Leadership is so much more than a title/position or individual concept." Those are words that Dr. Travis Martin shared in a comment about leadership on LinkedIn. On his third tour as a university fraternity and sorority life leader, Travis visited "Ethocast" to talk about how he works with students to sharpen their leadership skills, starting with the practice of vision casting. He also describes the Social Change Model of leadership and why he believes that Greeks can be drivers of social change on campus.
About the Guest
Travis serves as the University of Michigan's associate dean of students and director of fraternity and sorority life. He serves as a divisional leader and member of the Dean of Students Leadership team. Travis is responsible for leading fraternity and sorority life (FSL) staff, affiliated sponsored and voluntary student organizations, student leaders and FSL alumni in the planning, development and implementation of activities and programs that support and advance the foundational values underpinning fraternal organizations. He is also responsible for executing a strategic vision to advance the community and for proactively managing the operational and administrative activities of FSL. In his capacity as associate dean, Travis responds to emergent student needs and issues within the Michigan community and represents the dean in a variety of capacities, including responses to emergent and unpredictable circumstances. The University of Michigan FSL community consists of the Interfraternity Council (IFC), Multicultural Greek Council (MGC), the National Pan-Hellenic Council (NPHC), the Panhellenic Association (Panhel), and their respective fraternities/sororities and its student leaders.
Prior to Michigan, Travis served as director of fraternity and sorority life at Northwestern University, senior coordinator of Greek life and the residence hall director at the University of Georgia, graduate resident director at the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, and an admissions counselor at Mississippi Valley State University where he earned his B.S. in biology. Travis earned his master’s in higher education leadership from the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville in 2008 and his Ph.D. in college student affairs administration from the University of Georgia in 2019.
Ethocast is a "For Our Edification" limited series and is supported by Edify Ventures, LLC.
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Transcript
Complexities of Leadership
00:00:00
Speaker
So let's face it, leadership isn't easy. There are lots of moving parts. There are some moving parts that are harder to figure out than others. All kinds of considerations, all kinds of variables, those moving parts, those considerations, those variables, all known as People, people can be really tough to deal with when it comes to leadership. And that's because without people, you can't lead. So guess what? You got to figure them out. One of the things that I have figured out throughout my life is that it helps to have some sort of framework to work from to do leadership successfully. If you walk in and you just start doing it without really thinking about what it is that you want to accomplish, then you could run into some pretty big problems.
Introduction to Social Change Model
00:00:45
Speaker
I ran across a pretty interesting model of leadership that's called the social change model. And that's because of one Dr. Travis Martin. He is the associate dean of students and the director of fraternity and sorority life at the University of Michigan. I found out that the man is pretty much just as much a leadership geek as I am. So he is on this episode of Ethocast.
00:01:14
Speaker
Welcome
Ethocast's Leadership Focus
00:01:15
Speaker
to Ethocast, a podcast about sound leadership practices to boost life in college fraternities and sororities. I'm Eddie Francis, presenter of Followership to Leadership and the Black Greek Success Program, presentations designed to help Greeks become more effective leaders. On Ethocast, I'll share lessons learned from my college days, my career journey, and leadership research. Ethocast is a four-hour edification limited series and presented by edify adventures. This is Ethocast, leadership to the letter Thank you for joining me on Ethocast. I am pleased to be joined by someone that had the opportunity to meet a few years back. He is a fraternity brother. And I promise y'all, I'm not going to have only alphas on these things, although, although I'm not very shy about my fraternity at all. Um, but Travis Martin, he's the associate dean of students, a director of fraternity and sorority life at the university of Michigan. Travis, it's good to see you brother. How are you?
00:02:15
Speaker
Well, man, I know. Well, thank you for having me on the podcast. It's good to see you as well. It's good to see you, man.
Passion for Leadership: Martin & Francis
00:02:21
Speaker
And so one day I'm on LinkedIn ah where I love to skulk about and I see that Travis post this research about leadership. Now, if you, if you've noticed with me, part of the way I describe myself, part of my identity is that of a leadership enthusiast. And I really, really love to talk about leadership that much. So I see someone I know post something about leadership, bam, I'm on it. I want to check it out. And what I did was I replied to Travis in the comments. I said, Oh, I have to check this out. Part of our master's research revealed that the flaw in leadership development programs is it tends to focus too much on the individual achievement. Thank you for sharing. Now Travis responds to me. My dissertation was us on socially responsible leadership.
00:03:07
Speaker
which is a construct within a framework of leadership called social change model of leadership leadership. It posits that leadership should have individual group and community components. To your point, it's a great and comprehensive kind conceptual approach to leadership development. Leadership is so much more than a title position or individual concept. be still my beating heart. The man got me where I live. So Travis, let me tell you, I have been, um, I have been having lots of conversations with folks in my professional community, the high red marketing community about leadership.
00:03:44
Speaker
And one of the things that I say to them all the time is leadership is not a title or a position, but I say leadership is a process because there's always so much to learn and there is no one leader who has it all figured out. Like there's always something to figure out about the people who surround you. And I want to get into that in just a second, but let me ask you, with the kind of work that you do, and and and I'm so glad to have a director of fraternity and sorority life on the podcast with the kind of work that you do. First of all, what got you interested in it and how did you get here? What
Martin's Leadership Journey
00:04:19
Speaker
led you to this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i have Really great question. So, um, so of course,
00:04:26
Speaker
You know, I joined my fraternity, our fraternity rather would, you know, as a collegiate student. And one of the things that I recognized that so much of um my memories around the impact that I was doing around um at least in my collegiate experience as I reflect back, was through my fraternity, right? And so that's what kind of led me eventually, I mean, long story of how I particularly start working in fraternity sort of life. But as I reflected back on um my experience as a student, the most, probably one of the most impactful experiences was that in fraternal natures, right? So whether that was in athletics or whether it was in my fraternity,
00:05:09
Speaker
It actually was a leadership ah program that I participated in as a small group facilitator that really, I think, had the epiphany for me. So I was working in higher ed prior to working directly with fraternity and sorority students. ah But it was actually my participation in this leadership experience, this actual national program called Leadership. And, you know, leadership is this five-day immersive leadership experience where we take students off for five days and it really helps them think about the process of their leadership development, right? That's leadership. And part of days iss the seven days um um experience again, and on day seven, you're asked to create a
00:05:56
Speaker
commitment or reflection around what you will do different based on your learning for the week. ah At that point, I was in higher ed, I was working in housing, and I found myself where i really being drawn to this kind of student development space more so than just managing a building right and housing and res life. I really started to question career-wise, where do I see myself being more effective? and It was from that experience that led me, this is even prior to dissertation, right to really wanting to work with students in the fraternity sorority community. and
00:06:30
Speaker
And so that's what kind of left me there. And again, that's been, oh my God, almost 15, 16 years ago now. the and And so I've been in Fraternity Story Live work to have worked my way from a coordinator to you know now. directors and at this point now even associate the school. Yeah. So a couple of things I want to acknowledge. So prior to being in Michigan, you were at Northwestern and also University of Georgia. That's correct. Yeah. Right. And then also we got it. We got to, you know, people who know me know I'm an HBCU you advocate. And so we do have to shout out your alma mater. yeah Yes. Yes.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yes, yes, Mississippi Valley State University. And actually the story I was telling you about, about what was most impactful around my collegiate experience was the foundation of the experiences I received at Mississippi Valley State University. And it'll be in a Mississippi where I was again, a member of the football team there, but also joined my fraternity as well. by the way congratulations on the brand unveiled that mississippi valley just did it is dope yes yes yes i posted it on my facebook page uh i actually am excited about it actually the athletic director who we're unfortunately are losing uh to jackson state our rivalry
00:07:45
Speaker
but But he's done a great job. I actually was in school. We were in school around the same time. And so I have supported his leadership as an athletic director and so excited about, I think, the future of Valley. And I'm a star and supporter. Anybody knows me knows, it really knows me knows that I am a believer in my alma mater. I'm also a very big supporter of HBCUs as well, although I've worked in this space in a number of years. I've contributed back. I'm an active member of my alumni association. I contribute back financially. I have a couple of endowments that I supported by I'm a model. So yeah yeah, you hit my heart there when you said HPC. So absolutely, man. And and listen, ah this Paris Mardi Gras got a chance to see Valley March and yeah they have a new big sound. and We turned up. I was I was impressed, man. I was like, I was like, wait, no, I've heard Valley before. This is different. yeah This is way different. So congratulations. And so, you know, so, so ah let's, let's start, let's start at the beginning. The views expressed on Ethocast do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts, guests, or any entities with which this podcast's participants are affiliated. Questions, comments, email eddie at eddiefrancis.com.
Vision Casting in Fraternity Life
00:09:04
Speaker
When it comes to, let's, let's say you are talking to someone, a member of one of the fraternities or sororities, one of the chapter presidents comes to you and says, I'm really having trouble figuring out how to engage my chapter brothers or my chapter sisters. Where do you start with them when you want to give them the leadership talk? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, um,
00:09:30
Speaker
One of the things I often will do, and I've done this in my own experiences, is to ask the questions about, um you know, particularly in that situation with ASK. Well, do you know where, you know has there been an opportunity or time set aside for shared vision casting? right so ah And so oftentimes when i what I have learned from college students, right and and this is no knock on them, right particularly for those who are in leadership positions, but they're here.
00:10:01
Speaker
to be students and I acknowledge that. yeah ah They're here to be students, they're here to graduate, ah but oftentimes they just sometimes don't have the time or at least maybe even the guidance to help them think about um vision casting and also in particular in ways you do that is through you know tangible things such as have you had a planning retreat with your your membership, right? Oftentimes they have not. They're like, well, you know, yeah, we've always done this program and we're going to just keep doing this, recycling the program. And so I'm like, well, you you really, what you really miss in that is the opportunity to really get feedback from your membership to get them excited around a vision, right? And so, yeah.
00:10:46
Speaker
You can say we've always done this party on the third Saturday of every September. ah But is that really where the membership wants to be focusing the energy right and so and so taking opportunities to to take in input and feedback from your membership in a. Friday ways you can do that by retreat you can do that by surveys you can do that by a number of ways but to get people excited around and around around a vision and so that's usually the first question I access to that if they tell him my office accent on you know have you done any planning retreats or vision casting with your membership.
00:11:22
Speaker
And if they had not, certainly thinking about ways that they could think about planning something, implementing something like that. and So, so definition, vision casting, I imagine, are we talking like fishing? You cast the line and you, I mean, would wouldn't tell us of what vision casting is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, you know, by a leader, in my opinion, right, particularly in a chapter setting, fraternal setting, president, right, obviously clearly should have read residency with some type of vision around where they see the organization being, you know, after they have completed ah their term in leadership, right? hu and so um And so what, you know, what I think leaders should be doing is, right, is, again, casting that vision. Where do you see the organization, you know,
00:12:14
Speaker
a year, two, three, whatever your term terms are being after you've completed your leadership. And then telling that story and getting folks reactions and engagement on how they can help you um you know help move that vision along. right So when you cast your vision out, you're saying, OK, this is where I want to see the organization get on board to figure out how you see yourself helping me there. yeah and um and and and And it has to be broad and aspirational enough for folks can see themselves in their unique ways and how they can ah can help you move along that vision. Right. And so it can't be so
00:12:58
Speaker
narrow, so people can't get under it, right or they can't get behind it. right And so so making sure that it's broad and aspirational enough so folks get in their own unique ways, can figure out ways to be excited about how they can contribute their own personal skills and experiences and strengths to that that vision. again so I can only imagine imagine for a college student just that small piece is a pretty enlightening form because, you know, one of the things I always talk to students about is when I was a chapter president as an undergrad and.
00:13:34
Speaker
You know, i it was basically throw them in a deep end and help make them figure out how to how to lead this chapter. And I only had a chapter of like 10 brothers or something. But it felt like I had 50 because I was sitting there like I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know. They're not listening to me. I don't know what to do. I'm getting upset with people. And had someone told me something as simple as well. Eddie Cass, your vision. you know I think that would have been a game changer for me. And it seems to me that what happens a lot of times, to your point about students, they they come to school to go to school and to get a degree and to move on and to build a life. When it comes to something like leadership, there are a lot of hard lessons that may not necessarily have to be so hard if they have a framework to work from. And and do you find that when you talk to your students about that,
00:14:24
Speaker
that light does come on and they're like, oh wait, okay, hold on. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And I always say when... most times we don't know what we don't know, right? so um And so I often do find that students just need the framework, right? They need just the the, how can I really make sense of this experience that I'm going through? I'm serving as the president, right? Like you said, people are not following me, but how do I make sense around how I get them to, or a way to get them or my you know my membership to to at least follow ah a vision, right? And so some of that is, right? just You know, putting frameworks in place right for them and and I have found that students are will take it and run with it, particularly those who are have the skill enough to really understand how to communicate right and so part of it is being able to communicate.
00:15:16
Speaker
um a that vision, right? And so that's going to be something that you might have to be more tangible in helping them kind of work through. But I have found that students are, particularly students who are, you know, in fraternity and sororities, like obviously they've been, they've exuded some type of leadership characteristics that gets them into a place where I think they're they're easy able to work with that framework. so As somebody who who has been a director of fraternity and sorority life, what is it about Greek life? What is it about Greek life that ah that attracts some of the most colorful folks on campus? It attracts some of the folks who have probably some of the strongest leadership skills. What is it about Greek life? yeah you know You know, I was just having this conversation earlier with someone who's interested in joining a fraternity.
00:16:13
Speaker
And, you know, I think, you know, at least from my research, right, you know, there's so much research out there about fraternity sororities, right, part of it, particularly in the higher ed setting or even out in the community setting. and that that individuals who are attracted to you know these types of organizations already come, I think, oriented in a way that they are tend to be more social, right? They tend to want to have um interactions with other people in a way that is different than maybe others. um
00:16:48
Speaker
And so they already come with this kind of orientation that I want to be a part of, this camaraderie of individuals trying to meet a collective goal. like Whether that goal is service, it could be, as I always joke and say, it could be sometimes, right? That collective ah goal is debauchery, right? Unfortunately. But there is this this unique desire to be a part of a collective group. And so going back to my dissertation, one of the reasons why I was so excited about what i kind of make the connection is what we so often say in fraternity source, we develop leaders, right? And so the part of being in the fraternity sorority is that you kind of develop these leadership skills.
00:17:29
Speaker
And we and we say we do all these good things for the community. Well, how, you know, you can have leadership that again leads you to, as I mentioned, the battery or you negative but how do we then take what we say we're doing ah around the impact we have on our communities. um And say, how do you express your leadership to be in a more socially responsible aspect right around how you engage with community right so who I think, you know, um most oftentimes people are attracted again I think fraternities to to make some type of collective impact and and and so
00:18:07
Speaker
And so my research really was very fascinating, and I think the social change model just kind of helped me put some sophisticated frameworks around, essentially at the late most basic terms, how do individuals who join fraternity and sororities impact something greater than themselves, right? And so not about their own aspirations, right? Not about I held this title, et cetera, but how are they then taking this leadership experience they're having and impacting themselves, but also their organization and also the broader community. Right. Hmm. Yeah. You're listening to EthoCast. I'm Eddie Francis and we are joined by Travis Martin.
Essentials of Social Change Model
00:18:46
Speaker
He is the Associate Dean of Students and Director of Fraternity and Sorority Life at the University of Michigan. Um, and I was going to ask you to dive a little bit into social change. So the social change model, what's a, I don't want to make you relive your defense here, but how, what is the social change model? How does it work?
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah yeah yeah yeah so social change model is ah was I think establishing an early 90s I can't remember the year that's kind of getting into like the dissertation level ah defense but I think I'm pretty sure early 90s was kind of this framework around social change. in leadership studies that really posited that leadership should be about how do we create social change. right That's the purpose of leadership. That's why you want to develop good leadership because you want to create some type of social change. right so ah And so the social change model has kind of several dimensions of how they look at social change through leadership.
00:19:48
Speaker
And it was, I think it's seven C's, they call it. And so it says the seven C's are, you should have a development of the consciousness of yourself. You should have congruence in how you're developing leadership. You should have commitment in how you are demonstrating leadership. Common purpose. Controversy with civility, which is essentially you have an ability to, you know, of course, navigate multiple viewpoints and perspectives. ah Collaboration and then most important, in citizenship. So these seven C's are constructive, the social change model that you measure, right?
00:20:21
Speaker
um And so that's actually what was part of my dissertation. So i essentially that was a model for um um a survey data that was out of the multi-institutional study of leadership that, and it still is running today where they do nationwide surveys to collect and measure leadership development along those seven C's. And so what I did is I took different types of fraternities and how they responded to that survey, members of the fraternity sororities, and looked at differences across for fraternity types. I looked at NPHC organizations, organizations, our Panhellenic multicultural groups.
00:21:02
Speaker
Some of the the limitations of the the actual survey data that I use that it doesn't necessarily posits or disaggregate by councils like that. It will say, you know, historically, you could you could disaggregate data that makes sense of culturally based groups in a conglomerate, right? So we couldn't necessarily look at MGC versus MPHC. We could say culturally based organizations altogether, right? ah but then you could separate out well what does NIC organization or men's white organizations look like, and or social organization, which is how MSL looks at it, or what are women's historically white organizations or social organizations look like. so That's really interesting. yeah Again, I'd go down the rabbit hole of my dissertation again, but I certainly wanted to let you ask any follow-up questions to that.
00:21:54
Speaker
Well, that's interesting because so around that same time, so there's this leadership scholar out of Australia named Gail Avery, and she developed these four paradigms of leadership throughout the course of time, around the 90s. And
Parallel Leadership Models
00:22:09
Speaker
and her her stuff is really based more on professional organizations, you know, so companies And she noticed that around the 90s, there was a shift to more of a visionary style of leadership. um But then when you get to the turn of the century into the new millennium, she's noticing a type of leadership that to me is really, it really runs parallel with Greek life where it's is's called organic leadership, where a lot of the influence comes from membership, a lot of the influence comes from
00:22:40
Speaker
the rank and file, it doesn't necessarily come from this one person at the top or this group of people at the top within in group. And so it's really interesting that those two types of leadership models were running around the same time. And for me, a lot of this happens because at some point people realized that what you have, like in a fraternity or sorority, you have all these diverse voices and you can't ignore them anymore. So now you have to start listening to how they think leadership should go because at some point, at some point the the construct of your organization or whatever is goingnna is going to collapse within itself with so much diversity and so many more people having a voice.
00:23:23
Speaker
yeah um And so that's really fascinating that the so social change model was running around that same time as that organizational model. yeah That's a really, that's a really good point. I never thought about it that way. And I know there's, you know, about six different assumptions around the social change model. And one of them particularly is about ah that all individuals, right? Does not necessarily have to have a formal leadership position. have the potential to be leaders. It should be engaged in the leadership process. right so that's I agree. right i you know i wasn't stay I would imagine if I was in kind of my um in the academy at that point, right ah I'd imagine something was happening right in the narrative around leadership studies that was kind of pushing us to to just to look at leadership a little bit different. right so But what I really like about what you're doing, though, and and you you kind of alluded to this on LinkedIn, that
00:24:17
Speaker
that The issue that I see a lot of times with leadership and leadership studies is it tends to get stuck in the academy and nobody pulls it out and really talks to people about it in plain English. And I love the fact that you're in a position where you can pull something out of the academy and talk about it in plain English to a group of students yeah who, because they are so visible on campus, yeah they need to hear about it. They really need to understand what they're doing. Absolutely absolutely absolutely yeah and you know and in and you know the the those I would imagine as I'm trying to draw some parallel here right some of the skills you hear even in that you feel like you hear in you know folk going out in a job market looking for jobs like people speak particularly in supervisory positions right.
00:25:07
Speaker
is that you have to have these skills and know how to delegate, right? Delegate is an assumption that in your head, you're assuming that folks have the leadership capacity to do the job that you're doing, right? And so- It is an assumption. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But you know, but the thing about it is if you put the right people in the right place, right? yeah You set them up to be successful. ah They, of course, can exude the leadership skills that they have to be successful. And so that's a skill that you have to learn, right? How do I take
00:25:38
Speaker
the strengths of the folks that are working with me and and and set everyone up to be successful, right? and so and And so that's, again, as I tie that back to, again, the the assumptions around the social change model, that leadership model you were talking about is assuming that you know people don't need position to be leaders, right? No. and so That being said, um one of the things that I focus on is I focus on the leadership practice of followership. And and and I love to talk to students about Kelly's of follower types, the five follower types, you know, and
00:26:17
Speaker
you know When you think about students who are in these positions, you have the you have the chapter president, you have the executive board, and then you have the members. um When you think about that, and even with your committees, I mean, you're still talking about your members of that chapter. So when you think about that, how do you talk to students about realizing that they have this the strength the and and and and also at the same time talking to chapter leaders.
00:26:50
Speaker
How do you get them to really pay attention to what the strengths of their members are while letting the members know, hey, you have a strength. Here's how you can use it. You know you you may want to be the treasurer, but you're really kind of more like a party promoter. So how do you get those two things going at the same time with students? Exactly. Exactly. You know, um and oh, and by the way, and there's no shame in being the party promoted. That is perfectly OK. There is a role in that. Absolutely, absolutely. And and you know, at one point I have held that rule, I think, but ah probably to my detriment, right? I wasn't the person to hold the right. I've held that role before, but was it probably right then to be holding that role? And I think you you make a really fascinating point and interesting point. And so part of
00:27:43
Speaker
you know ah I think the purpose of vision casting, because my thing is that we you know we don't expect the you know president to be able to know and put people in place. It's not like the president or any leader in position needs to be kind of pulling the strings of their members. right And so I don't want to create that kind of visual. But I think the the beauty around vision casting and getting folks corralled around a vision is that folks will will naturally show that leadership to say, this is what I can bring. These are the strength that I bring right to the table. Going back to that example where I talked about me being in a party promoter position when I wasn't the right person to be in a position.
00:28:27
Speaker
was because of a leader that I was allowing to pull a string, right? It was like, we need to do this. It wasn't me getting excited around a vision to say, okay, but this is what I can bring to that vision. of getting us to where we're going to be in two years. yeah ah and so again that's so that Because I think if you don't get people excited about a vision and them excited about how they can contribute to the vision, then you end up with having to put their own people in. People are doing their own things that they shouldn't be doing. They're not really playing to their strengths. right
00:29:00
Speaker
etc ah And so um you're essentially managing people. and And we know management leadership are two totally different things. And so we have to exude that leadership and get folks excited to bring that strengths naturally to to the table. and so and And so that's why I tell folks as president or as any leader of an organization, right? you have to set that vision. it's It's critically important that we do that first is to set that vision and purpose and then get people to step up and show that leadership, right? By saying, this is where these these are my strengths. This is how I can help us get to to where we are, so.
00:29:39
Speaker
At the end of the day, when you are working with a community of fraternity and sorority members, especially knowing how diverse the community is from council to council, from organizational type to organizational type, at the end of the day, what is your
Fraternities as Leadership Exemplars
00:29:59
Speaker
vision? What would you like to see them do? And how would you like to see them interact with campus in a healthy way? yeah yeah yeah Yeah, so, you know, I clearly, you know, I always tell students generally this is that, you know, I would admit that I come with a little bit of bias because I was in a fraternity, but I do think the on a college campus fraternities and sororities have the capacity to be
00:30:25
Speaker
the quintessential example of social change, leadership on a college campus. And so what I ultimately want, and we just did this as ah as a unit here at Michigan, as you know, I've been here three years and we did some a some actual ah strategic planning you know as as an office. ah And part of that was to set our vision and and mission. right It certainly wasn't mine, but we talked about this and what we came up with as a community right or as an office is that we want our fraternity community here at Michigan
00:31:01
Speaker
um to, you know, be the shining example of health and leadership, right? Health and well-being, we want them to be some of the most healthy and, and you know, positive well-being aspects of around what our campus community looks like. um And we want them to be able to create a sense of belonging. who appears on campus. And so and we know that, on particularly on a college campus, um you know students are able to get to graduation if they are healthy, they they have good wellbeing and they have a sense of belonging. They feel like they belong here. And we think this is what fraternity sort of life brings to Michigan, right? This is our unique niche around why we should exist at Michigan and we should create so some sense of belonging for students and for them to create that in a healthy, in a respectful way and for them to be able to make a positive impact on their their communities. go
00:31:58
Speaker
so Outstanding, man. So Dr. Travis Martin, he is the Associate Dean of Students and the Director of Fraternity and Sorority Life at the University of Michigan. Travis, thank you so much for joining me on Ethocast. Absolutely. Thanks for being here. Always good to to be with you. Ethocast is a four hour edification limited series. If you like what you heard, like and follow this podcast for more leadership insights for your fraternity or sorority chapter. To find out how you can bring followership to leadership or the Black Greek success program to your campus or a campus near you, email today, eddy at eddyfrances.com. Until next time, spread brotherly and sisterly love wherever you go.