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14. Xi | The Psychology of Hazing with Leslie M. Brown and Von Eaglin
15 Plays18 days ago
The second part of the series on hazing is a throwback interview with two mental health professionals. Leslie M. Brown and Dr. Von Eaglin gave their thoughts about what motivates students to commit acts of hazing. This interview was first posted in 2014 on "The Eddie Francis Podcast Show" and it was reposted on "For Our Edification."
About the Guests
Leslie is a licensed marriage and family therapist with extensive experience working with military veterans, veterans' families, and women/families in substance abuse recovery. She is a doctoral candidate at Barry University where her research interests include the evolution of families, polyamory families, race/class/gender and cultural competency as well as indigenous and traditional mental health healing modalities. Leslie earned her Master of Science in marriage and family therapy from St. Thomas University (Fla) and her bachelor's degree from Hampton University in mass media arts. She is a member of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Inc.
Von is a Licensed Professional Counselor who talks about positive psychology on One Life Radio. Von has experience working with physically and sexually abused youth, couples, men’s issues, anger management, adolescents, depression, anxiety, and addictions. Von earned his Ph.D. in counseling from the University of North Texas where he also completed his master's in education and his bachelor's in business administration. Von is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Inc.
Ethocast is a "For Our Edification" limited series and is supported by Edify Ventures, LLC.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Eddie Francis, the host of Ethocast. This episode continues a look at hazing. It's a replay of a conversation I had about 10 years ago on the old Eddie Francis podcast show and then also on For Our Edification with two mental health professionals to get their thoughts about why students engage in acts of hazing.
00:00:20
Speaker
Now you'll notice that there are references throughout this interview to NPHC, the National Panhellenic Council, also known as the Divine Nine. But I'm telling you, these insights can apply to just about any fraternity or sorority. So please, take some time to listen. It's episode Zai of Ethocast.
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome to Ethocast, a podcast about sound leadership practices to boost life in college fraternities and sororities. I'm Eddie Francis, presenter of Followership to Leadership and the Black Greek Success Program, presentations designed to help Greeks become more effective. effective leaders. On Ethocast, I'll share lessons learned from my college days, my career journey, and leadership research. Ethocast is a four-hour edification limited to series and presented by Edify Adventures. This is Ethocast, leadership to the letter. The Leslie Brown is a professional mental health counselor who specializes in family and marriage therapy, but she also tends to look at culture.
00:01:24
Speaker
She's a member of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Incorporated. Von Eglen is a professional mental health counselor who specializes in aggressive behaviors and he is one of my brothers of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. It was a few years ago and the sound is just a bit wonky but you'll get the point nonetheless. Here's that interview.
00:01:47
Speaker
Von and Leslie, thank you very much for joining me. How's everything going with you two? Great. Things are going well. Outstanding. Thank you very much. Leslie, I'm going to start with you because you have a a pretty interesting angle on this. First of all, I want i want to preface this by by saying that I don't really want to talk about the insurance liability because that's probably the first thing that we we hear people talk about. And I know that the the legal aspect of this is also very important, but I really am interested and that's why I'm asking two counselors to talk about this. I really want to talk about the mental health part of this.
00:02:23
Speaker
and i'm And I'm interested in in the approach that some of our members may have when it comes down to this. So Leslie, starting with you, you have ah you have an interest in in talking about the African American experience and and how we are rooted in our culture. So let me just ask you this. The code of hazing in our fraternities and sororities, it seems to be rooted in being able to withstand hardship.
00:02:48
Speaker
And based on things that you have studied and things that you have learned, do you think that's an indication more of the African American experience overall rather than it being limited to African American fraternities and sororities? Well, I think that black Greek life or black Greek term that's within the African American experience is one of the experiences you can you know, have as an African-American or an African of the diaspora. um And of course, I believe that what happens in one is a reflection of somewhere in the other. I think that, and you know, just based on experiences and things that I've read and et cetera, et cetera, you know, many of these organizations, they have their they roots in secret societies in Africa and indigenous culture. and
00:03:42
Speaker
In those cultures, people, you know, we had rites of passage. And I think in its modern form, pledging, hazing, all of that has is kind of been ah ah viewed as being a rites of passage. A badge of honor for people who've completed something. It's a difficult process. They've achieved it. um They've become members. But actually hazing,
00:04:10
Speaker
Hazing, as I understand it, is, you know, there's always been some form of it in institutional life back to medieval university. And I think, or from what I understand, it was during the 1920s when historically Black schools, students wanted to stop hazing a freshman.
00:04:40
Speaker
because of a lot of it was because of what was going on um in our communities politically and our families with lynching and all of that, they wanted to to stop it. So then that's when the pledge process emerged. So I think, you know, I think that it's always been, you know, it's it's it's always been a it's a reflection of life.
00:05:03
Speaker
yeah and and it's really interesting because when you take a look at uh... the history of it and you see a lot of it that's happened even before uh... fraternities and sororities at least uh... black fraternities and sororities there was a lot of this happening and you did not get notices as well there was a lot of this happening institutionally with colleges and universities on bond one of the things the that you take a look at once again as you take a look at many you take a look at groups of men um Every time you hear a hazing case come about, the the biggest question that people ask is, but why don't they just stop doing it? You know, why are we doing this to each other? We should love each other. I mean, honestly, based on anything that you studied, based on your experiences with men and with groups, is it reasonable to expect men to simply stop? Especially, you know, I should say, especially in the case of fraternities.
00:05:59
Speaker
Well, I believe the short answer is no. And I would love to elaborate and give you more details regarding the the history of hazings and fraternities. But I'd like to focus on some concrete issues involving hazing. And at first, well let me begin by defining hazing.
00:06:15
Speaker
So, hazing is any intentional or knowing or reckless act by someone acting alone or directed by others and dangers of mental and physical health of others. And so, ah there are many examples of hazing such as ah physical brutality, you know whipping, beating, striking someone.
00:06:34
Speaker
electronic shocking, you know, calisthenics, consumption of alcoholic beverages and other types of drugs. um But again, ah hazing is defined clearly by most student codes of conduct anytime you look within the code of ethics for most universities.
00:06:52
Speaker
Now, I think Leslie hit the nail on the head whenever she talked about how hazing is not a recent occurrence. From the studies that I've done, hazing began and then in the 1800s, actually, with upperclassmen who would initiate underclassmen. And it started at, of course, African Americans weren't allowed at you know, higher education institutions. So it was started by ah by white students who had actually abused the underclassmen. And so whenever you look at the aspect of men, it began and with african american very African-American men very early. However, there was really a crackdown on hazing back in 1990. And so whenever you look at men in black Greek letter organizations,
00:07:38
Speaker
ah Typically, they join these organizations for one, brotherhood. Two, I would say it would be fraternity, identity, and then some legacy. And then three is for personal connections. And so whenever you ask the question, is it is it reasonable to expect these men to stop? I would say no, because there's ah there is a right of passage that typically accompanies these types of organizations. And so there's ah there's a history. um And I can think back to when I'm my first incident with hazing and wasn't in a black greek letter organization it was actually in ninth grade with my football team and um whenever upperclassmen began to hit me or or beat me or whatever the case was um whenever i became a senior i interned did that to
00:08:23
Speaker
other football members who were underclassmen, and that was just a rites of passage. And if you ask any NFL rookie, he'll tell you that, was I Hays? He'll probably probably say yes. And so I see it in institutions across the board, and it's not just with men, but with women as well. so and And just to clarify, ah yeah yeah the the the incident you're talking about was actually 1989. I remember it vividly because it happened right after I was initiated. oh wow it was yeah Yeah, it was ah Joe Harrison Morehouse and then later a couple of years later, a young man by the name of Michael Davis in 1994 was ah you know unfortunately passed away. And you know and you know one of the things, Von, you brought up
00:09:03
Speaker
uh... that you know it happened to you and then so you became a senior and then you did it to uh... the to the freshman coming out to the football team and it may sound like a really simplistic question and i want both of you to give me some inside but i'm gonna start with you bought how much of this do you think can be contributed to youthful exuberance. i mean they don't nobody means to but Nobody means to put anyone in the emergency room. Nobody means to end someone else's life, but how much of this is just youthful exuberance? The views expressed on Ethocast do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts, guests, or any entities with which this podcast's participants are affiliated. Questions, comments, email eddie at eddiefrancis.com.
00:09:48
Speaker
Well, the word youthful exuberance is, um I think it's a layered issue, number one. Youthful exuberance may not be the appropriate term for it. I believe it's really an issue of identity, masculinity, and then significance. Whenever you look at the data, um typically hazing and many of the incidents that are reported or conducted, the hazing rituals are or conducted by recent graduates.
00:10:14
Speaker
um I like to call them extended adolescents. So um either they are people who have graduated, they are employed, underemployed or unemployed. ah And so their most significant accomplishment, the thing that gave them the most meaning and purpose in life was being initiated into the fraternity or their membership into the fraternity. And so you have guys who may be 22 years old up to 35 years old who may participate in these are illegal activities and and they do so because it makes them feel important.
00:10:43
Speaker
And many times they're seen as the old head, so um they have much more wisdom than the current authority figures on campus. um So therefore, so because they're close to the action, um they become like the concerning voice that comes upon from you know from on high, like I'm God and you need to do what I say. And so they're defining the masculinity for these young men ah in terms of rites of passage. And so when you say youthful exuberance, I really think the the bigger issue is male identity.
00:11:12
Speaker
Again, masculinity and how we define masculinity and then feeling a sense of purpose and meaning in terms of what we deem is a mix of man. Well, Leslie, what do you think? I mean, do you feel the same as far as the term youthful exuberance? You don't think that might necessarily be the appropriate term? Do you think it's more about identity? What would you say? I think it's a lot of different things. I think it's identity. I think it's youthful exuberance is a part of it.
00:11:40
Speaker
I also think that it's, um, it's historical. This is what was done to me. So I'm passing it on. Um, it's proving masculinity and kind of what, what bond is talking about or, or, or, uh, femininity or, you know, just that I am a good member. I am.
00:12:05
Speaker
I'm ah devoted and in order to to make it through and become what I am, you know you need to go through these difficult tests. Do people take it too far? Absolutely, absolutely take it too far. but i think it's i think it's It's several different things.
00:12:24
Speaker
so well and and and i want to kind of piggyback on something right there because we we talked about men ah leslie i mean what have you seen from women what What would you say would be kind of a difference in the way women approach it when it comes to hazing? well I think the physicality is is a little bit different. you know there there is Of course, there is you know some ah you know physical things that happen with women, but I think the physicality is different. and i also think that i think so in In many instances that that I've observed, there's less less of the physicality that that goes on, the physical harm things that go on.
00:13:09
Speaker
um with the men the thunder and the lightning um i think that's when they they bash you on the on the chest um for the men but yeah i think that in terms of the women that for that aspect it's it's less less physical for us and so it is is so it is more mental it is more emotional maybe yeah definitely emotional definitely playing upon your emotions, definitely. I can recall instances where, you know, maybe there were big sisters who would talk about different things that they knew would hurt your feelings. Or, you know, it's it's it's a test, a test of your mental and your physical. And and it goes far.
00:13:59
Speaker
wow
00:14:15
Speaker
It's for our edification. Thank you for joining us. Leslie Brown and Von Eagle are our guests and they're talking about the psychology of hazing. Going with that whole notion of wanting to belong Leslie and Von and Leslie, I'm going to come back to you with this.
00:14:32
Speaker
um There's the one side of the folks who say, this person has got to want to belong to my organization. But then there's the other side of the person who, in one case, ah you know, ah recently a student ah from Boise University just sued Alpha Phi Alpha because he got involved in hazing or he he was ah he was he was a victim of hazing.
00:14:57
Speaker
But one of the biggest questions that people are asking is, why did you agree to do it? If they were going to touch you, why didn't you just walk away from it? So Leslie, starting with you, I want to get your opinion on this. Do you find it reasonable, especially when you when you you you especially when you think about this as a counselor?
00:15:17
Speaker
Do you find it reasonable to expect men and women ah to allow themselves, who who are agreeing to allow themselves to behave? Is it reasonable to just expect them to say, well, no, I'm not going to do it? I think it would depend on them. But largely, no, because to me, they're not men and women. They're their still very young people. um They may be in age.
00:15:42
Speaker
but You know, for many of them, they haven't experienced life on, you know, as a ah man or woman. They're, they're very new to that. So, you know, no, I don't think it's always reasonable to expect that. What do you think? uh... i would agree with leslie uh... in terms of uh... most men well i can't speak for women you know i'm not a woman uh... although i am married i don't know all of my wife's experiences you know uh... but but but however uh... with men i i would say uh... first let me kind of define masculinity or just somewhat some of the uh... some of the issues with masculinity uh... from my perspective i believe that men deal with a sense of shame uh... and it's uh... and it's a feeling that's very pervasive
00:16:31
Speaker
However, whenever we deal with issues of shame, and let me make a distinction um between the words guilt and shame. Guilt says I feel bad for what I did. Shame says I feel bad for who I am. And so if you have someone with a with ah with a what I would call an external locus of control, they define themselves by the things going on outside of them, not by their own inward um sense of well you know sense of significance. However, the things outside of themselves make them who they are, such as membership to a fraternity or sorority. So you're dealing with a man who, one, is insecure, two, has a sense of shame. If he leaves the ritual or from being hazed, then he's going i me all of his friends are going to talk about him. he's um He's probably on what they call a line, which means that he let the team down.
00:17:25
Speaker
And so this, you know, so that's very shameful for a man to walk away and say I didn't make the cut or I didn't have, excuse my language, but I didn't have the balls to to go through the whole process. And so, and then you also have an issue of what I would call Afrocentric socialization.
00:17:43
Speaker
And so again, this is a rites of passage. It makes me closer to my culture. I'm learning things about my culture, whether it may be poems or information about the actual fraternity or sorority. And so it makes one feel closer to being black in a sense.
00:18:00
Speaker
And so whenever you say, you know, can they just walk away? They can. However, you're going to be accompanied with ridicule. You'll be accompanied with contempt, um maybe criticism by your peers. And then, ah you know, you'll be the one that they know who didn't make make it through or you didn't make the cut. And and at a college or university, you're talking about a small city. So to me, it seems as if that would just That would just multiply the shame a hundredfold. Yeah. I also think that we just have to remember that you're dealing with young people who are trying to figure out who they are and what their place is in the world. So they're definitely vulnerable to doing something that um that may cause may cause them harm.
00:18:53
Speaker
because they're trying to find their place in the world and it definitely, you know, many of the things that Vaughn was talking about. So let's let's talk about, you know, things that we can give people to think about. ah One thing I always talk about, especially now, and and and I'm going to openly admit that I was one of those people who when I was an undergrad, I didn't see a problem with hazing. I didn't think it was a big deal. yeah and and but the one thing that i had not done is i had not actually thought about who the victims might have been and i i didn't think about i i didn't i didn't link of face or a name with the incident i've separated them so there was a hasn't incident and then there was this guy who unfortunately passed away so leslie i'm gonna ask you uh... this question first do you think you would make a difference
00:19:51
Speaker
uh... knowing the kinds of young people that would deal with because most of the hazing of the incidents or colleges and universities uh... do you think it would make a difference if we were to actually identify the victims if we were to say the name joe harris repeatedly if we were to say the name uh... you know uh... michael davis repeatedly or if we were to say the name christen high you know one of the young ladies who unfortunately uh... drowned in california ah due to a hazing incident
00:20:22
Speaker
Do you think it would make a difference to young people if they were to hear those names, to to to create a sense of identity with the victims? um Absolutely. And I think it goes in line with what is what goes along with being in a black Greek organization. It's a continuation of history and of legacy. And you know we can talk about those cases and those individuals. It brings it brings awareness.
00:20:51
Speaker
And it brings knowledge of what what happened, and it also means that their deaths were not not completely in vain. What do you think, Von? Do you think if we were to actually link a name with the incident, that would make a difference?
00:21:04
Speaker
I would say so, but I think it needs to go a step beyond that, honestly. um You know, incidents with, you know, let's say if it was Trayvon Martin. I think a lot of people could identify with that because there was a common shared experience of being um of being categorized and then stereotyped.
00:21:23
Speaker
and and then violence happening i know when i was young um... you know i've been pulled out of a you know car i was driving a Cadillac i've been pulled out of a car search before and so someone uh... tells me you know they share an experience with me is like this universality occurs where welcome to the black experience you know all you happen to you to this normalize it so and so i was a uh... helping us to identify with the victim uh... would be the main goal not just saying the name but What really, you know, what is the impact of that that hazing incident? What does it have on our community as a whole?
00:21:56
Speaker
what about what about if the if the college students were to actually hear from the families of the victims i mean you know one one thing that's brought up unfortunately you know in the case of joel harris is his mother never got a chance to see him graduate from college and so what would you somebody who was about to go hey is this young man what would you say to her what would you say to this young man's mother and she can't even talk to her son anymore so that that seems that would have a very strong impact and I'm sure it would be very difficult to get the families to even say anything but it seems to me that that that sort of action would also have some sort of impact. I think that would be very impactful and and like Von is saying you know definitely going deeper but I also think um I think the education of are of the whole history
00:22:48
Speaker
in this country and beyond, you know, just as I was saying, you know, when I was looking into all of this, I had no idea that hazing had always, there's always been hazing, always been some form of hazing. And it wasn't in in terms of um the historically black universities, black Greek letter organizations, that didn't, that black students challenged that in the 1920s.
00:23:17
Speaker
And that's how the pledge process evolved in terms of Black Greek letter organizations. Those students challenged and said no due to what's going on in our communities. People are being lynched. People are being killed. They're not seeing their families anymore. And we don't want anymore any part of that. So there had to be a another another process.
00:23:42
Speaker
um So I think the education of that is needs to happen as well. And I also think that we as as graduates need to be involved in that process.
00:24:13
Speaker
You're listening to For Our Edification, I'm Eddie Francis, and we're talking to Leslie Brown. and Von Eaglin about the psychology of hazing. And I'm glad you said that, Leslie. I want to hear you elaborate on that because one of the things that I have done is I know that in in in the circles in which I run and when I talk to undergrads, one of the things I do is I admit to them. I tell them what my belief system used to be and how it changed and why it changed and I'm of the opinion that if more of us, especially those of us who actually had no problem whatsoever with hazing back in the day, if we were to if we were to actually have these conversations, healthy conversations with undergrads in which we said, listen, I've evolved and this is why I've evolved and this is why I'm telling you this is a bad, bad, bad idea, do you think
00:25:08
Speaker
having older members of the organization speak out more would be helpful to undergrads. Absolutely, but I do think that we have to have some sort of balance and this may be a whole another conversation. um I am not agreement, you know, of course I think that hazing is is dangerous, but I think that at this point and juncture of time Everything reached such an extreme that, of course, our our divine nine had to say, hey, this can't happen anymore and switch to the to the mitp process within that. You know, I think I think there should be some sort of process. um But what's going on now? No.
00:25:55
Speaker
so i think that you we have to be involved and and uh... i don't think some of these are are another conversation but army maintain the rating the rigor of a process make sure that someone earns his or her way into the organization but don't don't send anybody to the are don't try to embarrass them for life you know or anything like that so i i i completely get what you're saying that one what do you what do you think uh... as far as members who once uh... believed in hazing speaking out more I do believe it is, I guess, what I would call a grassroots issue in that and that it would be beneficial if older members would reach back. You have people who are more developed in their own sense of themselves to ah be able to speak to others and you know and help them to heed. and I think the the penalty for hazing
00:26:47
Speaker
to my understanding, has increased over the years. you know Whereas someone you know could have been put on probation, you know or you know ah even probation with the school, now you see you know felonies. I know I was a i was a student at UNT. Well, actually, ah of ah while I was working at UNT,
00:27:05
Speaker
There were a couple of members of Kappa Alpha Psi who were charged felonies after they fled from the police after seeing of hazing. And so and so you know having testimonies from those guys um of, hey, you know this is what I did, and them being able to, for lack of a better term, witness to the other people who are in the organization, I think would be a good thing.
00:27:32
Speaker
ah however um Again, there's that idea that if it happened to me, then I'm going to help someone else to find their masculinity by letting it, you know, by doing it to someone else. So, I think one involves ah redefining masculinity. It involves forgiving the people that haze you and then being willing to teach the new generation different ways and then, you know,
00:27:57
Speaker
if you're defining your masculinity on, hey, am I paper or am I, quote, unquote, real? What exactly is real? you know and ah you don't you know and And it's hazing a part of that. you know It doesn't need to be a part of the conversation to be considered a for you to be considered a member of the fraternity and a member in good standing. any Most of the research I've done has said that you know even those who didn't experience hazing,
00:28:23
Speaker
you know you have people who did experience hazing no longer even affiliated with the fraternity or sorority or attending the grand chapter meetings or are part of serving the community in that way and so how much good did hazing actually do, did it really make you and then you have another member who didn't experience hazing. However, they're really involved in the community. They're serving others, and it's not about, hey, let's go to the step show, but it's, you know, what about political awareness? What about, you know, mentoring? What about scholarship, you know? And so um I think it is ah it's an issue of mentoring and reaching back very much so. Last question, and and I want to get both of you to to give me your final thoughts on this. I'm going to start with Yvonne.
00:29:07
Speaker
How important is it for people to understand that there is just there's no one magic bullet to really addressing and and dealing with this problem? oh Well, um I think it is important because I think I stated it before, this is a very layered issue and it's an issue of identity significance.
00:29:27
Speaker
um and a rise of passage to being black. um And so it's extremely important to understand that it is a layered issue and it has to be tackled from um all sides in order for the incidents to decrease. And coincidentally, the the majority of hazing that or hazing incidents that we hear about are only the extreme cases.
00:29:48
Speaker
only when someone dies or only when someone reports it. However, hazing is underground and I do believe that it is, I don't want to say thriving and well, however, I do believe that it still occurs. And so understanding that it is something that occurs um underground, understanding that it is a rights of passage, understanding that it is a an issue of identity within the African-American community as well as identity of self, understanding that there is an issue of shame and ridicule and criticism. you know it's It's important to understand all all sides of the issue in order to address it appropriately.
00:30:28
Speaker
we think leslie uh... how important is it as far as you're concerned to and it would be if you have any suggestions before anyone who is concerned it would like to help do something about this how important is it for them to understand that there's there's just no magic bullet on this thing uh... i think it's very important and and definitely like bond that is a very layered very complicated uh... issue uh... i think that We as as graduates and involved folks definitely have to take a step up in in mentoring our our young folks and and and letting them know. um I think that one of the suggestions I have is we've got to make the exact history understood and
00:31:22
Speaker
the the purpose of these organizations make it cool. you know There needs to be some some marketing campaign just you know to to keep the focus on what their purpose is.
00:31:35
Speaker
Again, that's an interview from about 10 years ago with mental health professionals, Leslie Brown and Von Eglen since then to Leslie's point about having a campaign. Anti-hazing campaigns have stepped up quite a bit, but we'll know that they're having a real effect when we don't have any incidents of hazing. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of lethal cast.
00:31:59
Speaker
Ethercast is a four hour edification limited series. If you like what you heard, like and follow this podcast for more leadership insights for your fraternity or sorority chapter. To find out how you can bring followership to leadership or the Black Greek success program to your campus or a campus near you, email today, eddy at eddyfrances.com. Until next time, spread brotherly and sisterly love wherever you go.