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S1 E10: Being Queer Online, Online Hate And Having Tough Conversation With Jordan Myrick
76 Plays1 year ago
In today’s episode I talk to Jordan Myrick, @jordanmyr1ck. Jordan is a writer, comedian, and actor. You can see Jordan in tons of comedy projects and all over TikTok.
We Talk About…
- Being queer online
- Content creation
- Online hate and harassment
- Challenges of monetizing hobbies and passions
- Having tough conversations
- Anxieties faced by young Americans
- Parasocial relationships
Resources:
- Follow @jordanmyr1ck
- Full episode transcription and citations: https://www.taylorraealmonte.com/on-the-outside-podcast
Keep In Touch:
- Visit taylorraealmonte.com
- Instagram @taylorraealmonte
- TikTok @itstaylorraealmonte
- YouTube /@TaylorRaeAlmonte
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome back. My name is Taylor Rae and this is another episode of On the Outside.
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello, welcome back. This is another episode and this week I am talking with Jordan Myrick. Jordan and I went to NYU together. We got our BFAs in Drama at NYU Tisch.
00:00:35
Speaker
We had the time of our lives hanging out I truly remember Jordan being like the funniest person ever and when we were recording this episode I had to keep muting my mic because I was laughing hysterically So I already told Jordan like you are very funny and I want you to know again that
00:00:55
Speaker
that I think Jordan is hilarious, and I mean they should be because they're a professional comedian, so it all really makes sense. In today's episode, I talk to Jordan Myrick. Jordan is a writer, comedian, and actor. You can see Jordan in tons of comedy projects and all over TikTok.
00:01:16
Speaker
Before moving to LA, they received their BFA in Drama at NYU Tisch School of the Arts, traveled all over North America performing with the Upright Citizens Brigade Touring Company, and brought kids' stories to life on stage with the Story Pirates.
Topics of Discussion Overview
00:01:31
Speaker
In this episode, we discuss being queer online, being a content creator, experiencing online hate, and how to have tough conversations.
00:01:42
Speaker
Let's start it out by hearing about a time when Jordan felt like they were an outsider.
Jordan's Childhood Experiences
00:01:48
Speaker
I feel like I felt like an outsider a lot growing up because I moved around a lot. So I was always the new kid and I also stuck out like a Thor. I also stuck out like oh my god. I feel like an outsider in my own body right now.
00:02:03
Speaker
I also stuck out like a sore thumb because I was chubby and very tall. So I hit maybe like five, six, five, seven, maybe in like the second or third grade. So I was an actual giant. I was bigger than a lot of my teachers. And that was a thing that people definitely wanted to let me know. And I remember
00:02:32
Speaker
in elementary school. The kids used to call me Shamu because, you know, I was big and beautiful. And I thought that I grew up in South Florida and I thought that
00:02:48
Speaker
They were calling me Shamu because I was so good at swimming. I had no concept of bodies or what I looked like or shame at this point. So I was like, yes, because we all were swimming all the time. We lived in South Florida. I was like, yes, we're all swimming. I'm truly incredible at swimming still to this day. I went on a snorkeling tour recently and the boat captain was like, wow, you're such a strong swimmer. I'm such a good swimmer. So I was like, yeah, that makes sense. They're calling me Shamu. Shamu is iconically a good swimmer. So am I.
00:03:16
Speaker
Then a teacher pulled me aside and was like, I asked them to stop doing that. And I was kind of like, oh, why is it making the other kids jealous? And she was like, no, doesn't it hurt your feelings? And I was like, why would it hurt my feelings? And she was like, well, they're calling you fat. And I was like, OK. It was a big record. It was a big record scratch moment for me, where I was like, oh, OK. I need to be a little more aware of what people are saying about me.
00:03:45
Speaker
I feel like that just kind of continued, I think, because I was much bigger in every single way than all of the other children around me. I became a target for anything. One time when I was in elementary school, a girl asked me if I liked fruits or vegetables better. I said vegetables, which still rings true. And she then told everyone, oh, since you like vegetables better, that means you're a lesbian.
00:04:07
Speaker
And then that became a thing, which honestly is like so upsetting because I am a lesbian. So she was right. She read me like a book, um, in the first grade. So that was hard, you know, that's hard to deal with now, but yeah, I think I just was so, I was so notably visibly an outsider because I was new at all these schools. I was a giant and
00:04:35
Speaker
I'm loud and I was a little unaware clearly. And I think that kind of started of me being like, oh, I'm maybe a little different than other people around me. Let's get into our conversation.
Career in Comedy and Content Creation
00:04:55
Speaker
So my name is Jordan Myrick. I'm a queer comedian, writer, actor, content creator, whatever will pay me money in Los Angeles. And I am an on-camera personality and writer. And you might have also seen me on Dropout, formerly College Humor.
00:05:13
Speaker
and are in other random things on the internet. I never know. I'm like, I just recite my resume, I guess. I'm a regular performer at the Upright Citizens Brigade. Yeah, and I make content, predominantly food content and comedy content on social media. I wanted to take it back to Jordan's outsider story.
00:05:30
Speaker
I love so much that you I mean, honestly, I wish that teacher didn't say anything to you and you just compliment love that for me. I love that you're still a strong swimmer. And I that was record scratch moment was a great way to describe it. I do hate that for you. You were driving you were like, I'm a swimming queen like love it.
00:05:50
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, I look back at pictures of myself from that time and I am like sausage into like limited to Sophie's that say like soccer across the back or whatever. I'm just looking like Hodor from Game of Thrones. I'm an absolute giant. And I had no clue. Like my parents were like, live your best life. I was. And then, you know,
00:06:16
Speaker
the outside came in and took that all away from me. So I think it's like not something that I feel like in my everyday life, I'm like, I'm still traumatized by that. But I think it does feel like a distinct moment when I was like, Oh, I always felt like I was different in like a fun way. And my parents are big and being like, be different, be yourself, which is like so nice. And I'm so lucky to have that. But I think that does feel like those moments feel like distinct moments where
00:06:42
Speaker
I was visibly different than everyone else and I was like, oh, not everyone thinks that is good. Not everyone likes that. As with most of our episodes, we brought it back to our childhoods to get us started. Do you feel like the way your parents, you know, your support from your parents, do you feel like that that age dwell with you or do you feel like it ended up like impacting you any kind of way?
00:07:04
Speaker
You know, I think it aged well because I think my parents, my parents were like, being different is better than being normal, but my parents were not like, you're the best. So I think that was a big difference. My parents are big time realists. They're very practical. They're not very emotional or lovey dovey. So I think my parents were like, being normal is boring. Who cares about that? But my parents were also like,
00:07:32
Speaker
you're fine and my parents both come from big families but i'm an only child so i think my parents were very interested in being like we need to keep you humble because. You know only children can go really really wrong.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yes, yes, I know my parents did tell me I was the best every day. You're the best. You're the best. You're the best,
Struggles with Being Chronically Online
00:07:54
Speaker
which loved at the time. But as I got older, I was like, interesting. There can only be one best and looks like other people also are good. Don't know how to process that.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like we had a reverse experience because my parents were like, you're actually not the best a lot. Like I really wanted to play the piano. My parents were just like, okay, well you're not good at it. So you have to practice. And if you're not going to practice, you're going to continue to not be good at it because like you're not a piano.
00:08:21
Speaker
prodigy, like wake up. Um, so I think when I was younger, I was like, please tell me I'm the best. Please tell me, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, please give it to me. Like, tell me I'm the best of all the sex workers in this production of Les Mis that I'm doing at community theater.
00:08:38
Speaker
My parents would always be like, no, you're fine. And they'd be like, we love you. And you're talented. And my parents supported me. My parents let me go to NYU. When I auditioned for NYU, my parents were like, we cannot afford it. So you cannot go to NYU. But if you want to audition as practice for auditioning, you're more than welcome to do that. So I did that. And then I got in. And my parents were like, oh, well, we didn't think you'd get in.
00:09:00
Speaker
So I guess now we'll send you to NYU and help you because if they are saying you can do it, we already kind of felt like you could do it. So we have to take a leap on this thing. So they're very, very supportive, but they're not
00:09:19
Speaker
As I mentioned earlier in the intro, Jordan and I met when we were both at NYU and I can't believe that that was over 10 years ago now. I do have to say your content comes all the time across my TikTok. I am a
00:09:35
Speaker
I am constantly, I'm chronically online. It is something I'm working on because it does make my brain melt. Like it genuinely takes me to a place sometimes and I'm like, oh, I'm unhappy that I'm still scrolling. Like I must stop. So I am working on that. I'm in the process.
00:09:56
Speaker
I have an episode talking. Yeah, I have an episode talking to my mom and she's like, I start my day. My mom's like the best queen of morning routines. And she's like, I start my day at 5am with journaling and like affirmations. And my mom has like 500 journals just spread out across her kitchen table. She like lights a candle. She like meditates.
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, just gorgeous morning. And she's like, I know you start the morning on your phone. And I'm like, yes, girl, I do. I do. And it's not who I want to be. Sure. The great times when your content comes across my page. I'm not a problem, I know. I think it's so interesting knowing someone in real life, because you are exactly, I mean, as far as I can tell, I feel like, and I wonder what your thoughts are.
00:10:45
Speaker
I would agree. I think depending on what it is, I'm just varying versions of myself. I think I try to stay authentic to myself unless I'm getting paid to be acting because that costs more money and takes more time and effort. So I'm like, unless you're paying for that, you're just going to get a version of me.
00:11:03
Speaker
That's the reality of the situation. But I think I'm heightened. Sometimes I will get haters that are like, oh my God, Jordan is so self-centered. She never shuts up. I wish they would shut up, whatever. And I'm like, yeah, that's my job. I have to go on this thing and talk. If I go to a party, I'm not going to run to the center of the room of the party and just start talking out loud and giving my opinion on stuff.
00:11:29
Speaker
Um, so I think that's like the one thing that maybe people would be surprised by is that I'm not
00:11:35
Speaker
I'm not super opinionated in real life to people, especially that
Authenticity vs. Performance Online
00:11:39
Speaker
don't know me that well. When I first started creating an online platform, especially being that I talk about topics like anti-racism education, human rights, mass incarceration, social justice, it was pretty scary to be vulnerable about those topics and also honestly strong enough to endure the criticism and harassment that I sometimes faced.
00:12:00
Speaker
It also was just really stressful and for me specifically those topics really weighed heavy on my heart and I had to find a way to manage that. Jordan and I went on to discuss more about social media. Yeah, I think that's such a great point actually that you're making because I feel like similarly a lot of what I talk about
00:12:21
Speaker
on my social platform, but also just when I'm hired to lead a training or a panel or speak at an event or something like that. I'm always talking about racial justice and anti-racism education and mass incarceration reform. These are the things that I'm not only educated on, so they're the things I know what I'm talking about. I can't talk about
00:12:44
Speaker
a million other topics, but these are the ones I can and do. But in normal, everyday life, I am relatively reluctant to spend tons of my
00:12:57
Speaker
mental and emotional labor, which might be a little bit different than how you're saying you don't 24-7 share your opinion, but I think there are some similarities. I don't run up to everyone and give them a history lesson and talk to them about all the things I care about and really try to be like, so what do you think about this?
00:13:14
Speaker
Parasocial relationships are non-reciprocal, socio-emotional connections with media figures such as celebrities or influencers. The concept of a parasocial relationship was coined in 1956 by Horton and Wall to describe the way mass media users acted like they were in a typical social relationship with a media figure.
00:13:36
Speaker
A sense of intimacy and closeness develops on one side, but the other party in all likelihood does not know the former exists. Over the years, as the media industry has grown, parasocial relationships have become more common. The one-sided nature of a relationship is more obvious when that relationship exists between a viewer and a character in a TV show, but enters a gray area when it is between real people, such as with influencers.
00:14:04
Speaker
When you get paid to do something, it is your job. And I think parasocial relationships have blurred those lines of things. And I love sharing my life. I love sharing my opinions. I love what I do. But at the same time, I'm not just out here on a street corner with the signs screaming out my thoughts. Like I get paid to give my thoughts, to write my thoughts, to speak my thoughts. So when I am getting paid, I will do that. And then in my regular life, I just want to
00:14:32
Speaker
hang out. I just want to like relax. You don't want to be doing your job all the time. So as you, you know, people will say, Oh, do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. But it's actually like do what you love and you will work every single day until you die. Because when your job is your hobby and your hobby is your job and your hobby is your passion and that's your job, you have to be so thoughtful and careful about
00:14:59
Speaker
differentiating between what is work and what is pleasure, what is a relationship, a friendship, when are you working, you know, like all those things can really, really easily mush together. There are honestly countless articles that have been written over the last few years about monetizing hobbies and turning passions into side hustles.
00:15:22
Speaker
Now more than ever, individuals use social media to amplify their hobbies, turning them into revenue streams and potentially into businesses. Sometimes this leads to fulfillment, other times to regret, but often somewhere in the middle. The roughest part of being a hostess was having to wear five inch heels. That was the roughest part. Like the job could have done it all the time in sneakers.
00:15:46
Speaker
I mean, I remember when you worked there and I was looking for a job and you were like, would you want to work here? This is how you have to dress. And I was like, no, I'm going to go get a job at a Mexican restaurant and went and worked as a hostess at a Mexican restaurant and like were sneakers. Cause I was like, I don't have in me what Taylor has.
00:16:02
Speaker
No, it was so rough. I had to get a letter from my podiatrist because he was like, your bunnions are out of control. Like your bunnions are humongous and you're not, you're not okay.
00:16:17
Speaker
So when I was doing that I knew okay this is you know I'm at work I'm not at work but when one you work from home and you work from home and it's like your passion like it's so there's so many times that the lines get blurred so I think that's a great point and that I really resonate with that.
00:16:34
Speaker
Violence attributed to online hate speech has increased worldwide.
The Rise of Online Hate
00:16:39
Speaker
Societies confronting the trend must deal with questions of free speech and censorship on widely used tech platforms. A theory of online hate based on social approval suggests that individuals and groups generate hate messages to gain reward for their antagonism towards mutually hated individuals or groups.
00:16:59
Speaker
by providing friendship and social support to other antagonists, it simultaneously deepens their prejudices. According to the Government Accountability Office, a hate crime occurs nearly every hour in the United States. It's a growing problem that's been fueled by hate-filled internet posts on social media and other internet platforms. Of course, you can see more about that research in the show notes. How intense do these comments get and how do you deal with them?
00:17:29
Speaker
So the comments are the worst thing I've ever seen in my, like comments are, it's so bizarre to me because I have never once in my life thought about commenting something on anything. Once in a blue moon, if I like follow a creator or like a creator, I'll comment. I'll be like, you go girl. Or I don't know if I'm just like a supporting, I'll be like, yeah. I have never, ever, ever thought to be like, I hate that sweater she's wearing. I'm leaving a comment.
00:17:57
Speaker
ever in my life. So that is always interesting to me that people feel the need to do that. I think a lot of people don't feel like they have power in their own life so they get upset and want to have power over people on the internet. I also think people
00:18:13
Speaker
don't realize that your comments don't hurt me, calling me fat, calling me ugly, calling me annoying, calling me unfunny, literally doesn't matter. Like I think I'm great. I get paid money to be funny. So obviously other people think I'm funny and like I have like a hot, incredible girlfriend. So like I'm not mad and you probably don't have any of those things. So I think I
00:18:37
Speaker
feel that way about it, what feels bad is that it can feel very, very scary, that there are so many people in the world that feel so angry, so hateful, that they want to go online and be rude to someone who is not doing anything wrong whatsoever. That can be very scary to me. That can make me feel like, okay, I never want to leave my house ever again.
00:19:05
Speaker
Also, I think people can put a lot on you, which I think is always hard because I want to be there for people. And if people see something in me that they like and they resonate with, I think that is awesome. But I also think for people on the internet, people are very quick to put their own
00:19:28
Speaker
baggage on you. I get messages a lot from people that are like, I just want to say how brave it is that you eat on camera at your job because I am obese just like you and it would embarrass me so much and make me feel so much shame
00:19:49
Speaker
if anyone ever saw me eating. So I just want to say that I appreciate that. And I'm like, where the thought is coming from is nice, right? They're saying like, oh, it's cool. You do this thing. But it's tied in with this thing of putting a lot of your baggage onto me. And I also think it can give you a very warped perception of yourself because
00:20:16
Speaker
I think it doesn't matter how much you weigh or what you look like, but I think that like
00:20:23
Speaker
it makes other people feel weird. Like I'm not even plus size. Like in terms of sizing, I am a size 14. That's still considered straight size. That's not even plus size, which once again, does not matter. But I think when people on the internet are quick to be like, Oh, you are obese. And then other people look at me and they're like, Oh, I guess that's what obese is. Like that's something that I dealt with a lot in my life of just being, you know, kind of like the, those Jessica Simpson pictures we all saw in the early 2000s when people were like, Oh my gosh, like we should,
00:20:53
Speaker
kill Jessica Simpson because of what she looks like now. And then now you look at those pictures and you're like, she looks like the hottest woman I've ever seen in my life. Like she's wild, tight and juicy. Like what were we all talking about? So I think things like that where it's not
00:21:10
Speaker
It doesn't matter if I'm fat or not, or you perceive me as fat or not, or I'm plus size or not plus size. None of that matters. But I do think we should be thoughtful when we speak about other people's bodies. And also, people will be like, I could never have your confidence. I am very confident. And I do feel good in my body. But there are also things where I have an autoimmune disease. I have been struggling with a chronic health issue with my feet for the last six months that I'm getting surgery on.
00:21:39
Speaker
at the end of this month.
00:21:40
Speaker
And that has limited me from mobility in the way that I, my whole life have been very physically active. That's been a big change for me. Things like that where once again, none of it matters. It's all irrelevant, but like your body changes over time. Your body even changes day to day. Sometimes I'll shoot something in the morning and then shoot something at night. And I hate the way I look in the morning shoot. And I love the way I look in the afternoon shoot. Like you just never know, but you also never know how other people feel about their body, what's going on with them.
00:22:10
Speaker
whatever. So I think people need to be like a little more thoughtful about that.
00:22:16
Speaker
And then I would say the most annoying thing is when someone leaves a comment on something being like, I hate gay people, I'm going to shoot up a pride parade. And then I'm like, okay, well now I have to go look up your school and send them an email that you're threatening to be an active shooter. I'm like, this is so much of my time now that has to be spent on you contacting your Southern Louisiana boys soccer league, telling them what you're doing on, you know what I mean? Like it's like so much additional work for me where I'm like, you're not actually going to do this, but also I'm like,
00:22:45
Speaker
not allowed to just not do anything about it. I have to, you know what I mean? Cause like, what if they do do it? Then it's my fault. I have to be like, all right. So that is also annoying. The work of having to like monitor other people's hate and unwellness.
00:23:02
Speaker
Today, young adults in America are reporting higher stress levels than older generations. Inflation, spotty healthcare access, and the aftermath of COVID as compounding factors. From issues like discrimination and human rights, to personal safety and violence, it's all stressful to younger Americans.
00:23:23
Speaker
Health and finance-related concerns top the list of stressors. The phrases millennial dread and Gen Z dread are terms coined to encompass the fear and frustrations that young adults today are experiencing.
00:23:37
Speaker
You have a little bit of a different perspective than what I really hear a lot from content creators, which all the perspectives are valid. But usually what I've heard the most and the message that I've heard amplified the most is how these comments can be personally really hurtful to someone.
00:23:54
Speaker
how reading really mean comments about yourself just might really shatter your self-confidence and your self-image, which, like I said, is obviously super valid. But the other things that you brought up of just the overall level of just fear and unease that can come from seeing just such a volume of hateful comments, producing fear, or even the example that you gave about someone saying,
00:24:21
Speaker
potentially being a school shooter or something like that. I think that's such a good point because even not receiving comments like that, I feel such an overwhelming amount of fear of the state of the world just being alive.
Managing Personal and Professional Boundaries
00:24:34
Speaker
Jordan's partner, Kendall, also creates content. Having a partner that also does content creation, do you think that makes it easier to support each other or that it potentially makes it
00:24:45
Speaker
challenging because my husband, shout out to Richard because now he does want to be a content creator. He's like, I think this would be fun. I would love this. And he's fashion king. He's so cute. I would follow Richard as a heartbeat. He's so cutie. And he is training for the New York city marathon, which is in almost an exact year. He's qualified. He did like nine races and he qualified for the marathon.
00:25:12
Speaker
shout out to you honey and so he wants to do content all around running and his journey for the marathon so I'm like helping him figure out that journey. But he overall is like post once a year when we like go on vacation and like that's it then never post again.
00:25:29
Speaker
And he has no like doesn't do anything related to content creation as of right now. So if I'm dealing with some kind of issue like I've had issues less with individual people and more with brands because they will they hire me they say we want to talk about
00:25:49
Speaker
Black liberation, we want to talk about equality, we want to talk about diversity inclusion. I say, okay, girl, let's talk about it. They don't want to talk about it like that. They didn't want to talk about it this way. They didn't want me to really get into it. They just wanted, what's up, this brand is inclusive. Use my discount code. That's what they wanted. They wanted you to be like, Hey, I'm black. And that's it.
00:26:12
Speaker
And me and my friends, we make jokes all the time. They're like, Taylor, the face of black liberation across the world. Because Eddie Brand is like, oh, Taylor, we put you on it. We're inclusive. We're diverse. We care about all people. So there's that. But they just don't like the way that I do it. And they wanted me to do it less.
00:26:31
Speaker
quote unquote angry. They wanted me to do it less accurate. They wanted me to use not that much history. Let's use less history. So that's kind of what I deal with sometimes and
00:26:43
Speaker
When I'm super upset about an email that I got or something, Richard, on the one hand, is very empathetic and can give me a perspective that's very much not in the world of social media. But similarly, he will, because he's not a content creator, he might just not understand what I'm trying to express. So how does that work in your dynamics with your partner? I'm very lucky because
00:27:13
Speaker
It helps a lot. Kendall and I are very on the same page. I think the thing that some people who are on the internet can fall victim to is your relationship becomes the content. And I think that can be toxic for a lot of people. But I think something that people don't always realize is Kendall and I are professional comedians who were professional comedians before we started making content. We both started making content during the pandemic out of necessity.
00:27:41
Speaker
because we had lost our jobs. So, and also those were jobs that we were, you know, up until very recently, Kendall and I both were living month to month. I was living month to month, Kendall was in extreme debt.
00:27:55
Speaker
And so we are two adults who are used to working, who are used to having jobs, who were already in the entertainment industry, who are pretty good at drawing lines between what is work and what is not. And so I think that really helps. I think that smooths things out so we don't run into being like, what's our relationship and what is content? Which I know is a big problem a lot of creators have. And then it's just really helpful. It's really nice. I mean, the only problem is jealousy because
00:28:25
Speaker
Kendall's literally the funniest person in the world and is so famous. And everywhere we go, Kendall gets stopped and people want to take pictures with her. And like, so yeah, I'm like jealous and that's the worst part of it because
00:28:39
Speaker
She's just so good. Recently I had someone message me a question and I happened to see it and I responded to it. And then they were like, Oh my God, I can't believe you responded. I'm going to tell all my friends that a celebrity's girlfriend talked to me on Instagram today. And I guess that's it. But even with that, it's like,
00:29:00
Speaker
I'm jealous in the most fun way. I'm so happy for Kendall. I reap all the benefits of it. Nobody deserves it more than Kendall. So yeah, if I had my finger on it, I think it would just be unbelievable. Jealousy, because she's just so cute and funny and smart and good, and everyone sees that, and I love that. And she gets no hate comments. Kendall gets no hate comments.
00:29:23
Speaker
Her demographic is women. Oh, I love that for her. I know. Her demographic is women and queer people that are like 30 to like 60. Oh, that's amazing. That's a good group. Unbelievable. All the comments are like, beautiful haircut today. Such a funny video or whatever. I'm like, what a dream.
00:29:46
Speaker
When I asked Jordan to be on the podcast, they gave me a few topics that we might want to touch on. One I was interested in and thought you all would be interested in is what Jordan phrased as being queer on the internet. They share more about that in this conversation and what that looks like for them. In terms of being queer on the internet,
00:30:06
Speaker
in general. You mentioned getting comments that are talking about your gender identity, your relationship with your partner. Do you think that that is amplified more having an online presence? Do you feel like it's something that you deal with in real life, like in human life? Because I guess the internet is real life, right? No, no. It's not.
00:30:29
Speaker
It's what you're about to say is right. I'm sorry to interrupt, but what you're saying is right. It's like it does affect your life and like the internet has real life consequences, but it is like, yeah, it's dystopian. It's like being on a different planet.
00:30:40
Speaker
100%. And that was such a good way to put it because I was, yes, you got exactly what I was saying, that it does have real life consequences, but it also is not real life. So does your life as a queer person in the real, real world compounded by the consequences of how that is perceived and discussed on the internet
00:31:06
Speaker
Like what is the relationship there? Do you feel like it's more discussed on the internet than it is in your real life? Yes, I don't think I would think ever about the fact that I'm gay if I wasn't on the internet because my life feels so normal to me. Like it's not like every day I look at Kendall and I'm like,
00:31:22
Speaker
Wow, another femme-presenting person. Or you know what I mean? It's just like I would never think about that, and it's very normal to me. Granted, I live in Los Angeles. I grew up, I'm originally from New Orleans. I grew up in the, at the time it was considered the gayest county in America, in South Florida, in Broward County. I went to NYU. I live in Los Angeles. I am very lucky.
00:31:52
Speaker
That being said, I do not have relationships with a lot of people that could potentially be in my life.
00:32:03
Speaker
because I think they're bad and it would negatively affect me. You know, like I said, I have very supportive parents. Kendall has very supportive parents. We're both extremely lucky in that way. I'm also white. I'm fem presenting. I think all these things are so important to remember in me talking about why I generally feel fine.
00:32:29
Speaker
I also think something that's nice and once again like take all that into context with everything I'm saying moving forward because I'm speaking from that place of knowing I have those things. I am surprised in general by how little people care in real life for the most part.
00:32:45
Speaker
Growing up, I am originally from the South. Obviously, I have met, know, I'm related to, dealt with a lot of people who are bad, homophobic, racist, whatever. And I think that also a lot of that can come from fear, shame, a lack of education, whatever. So I think a lot of times when people are confronted with that in general, they can be fine. Once again, not
00:33:12
Speaker
everyone. But I think, you know, one of my first jobs after college was touring, doing comedy. And we went to a lot of places where I was like, I'm a little nervous about going here. You know, Paducah, Kentucky, I got there, everyone was the nicest they've ever been, you know, it was like, so I think dependent, sorry, I'm trying to be so careful with my words, because I don't want to make a blanket statement. But I think in real life,
00:33:40
Speaker
there are less people that actively care about the fact that I am gay, that I am queer, how I present my gender identity, whatever. I think on the internet, it's almost exclusively what is talked about.
00:33:57
Speaker
The internet has real world ramifications while also somehow not feeling like the real world all the time, while also becoming more real every day.
Challenges in Online Discussions
00:34:09
Speaker
I think a lot of us feel like we struggle with how complicated and complex this all is.
00:34:16
Speaker
And again, obviously not making a blanket statement like what you said, the disclaimer that you gave, but what I really have realized is that on the internet, I might see a demographic that I'm like, I have polar opposite views than this demographic or people that live in this area, right? This might be something that I think internally, but when I engage with actual human beings in real life,
00:34:45
Speaker
I've yet to find, not I've yet to find, that's not true, but I find a lot less in real life having such violently polar opposite conversations that are like such just like hateful discourse that I'm like, I fully disagree with who you are as a person and you disagree and fully hate me as a person.
00:35:08
Speaker
Most of the time, I will see someone with a bumper sticker that I feel like is so wild and insane, but then they'll come out of their car and be so nice to me. And I'm really taken aback because the internet has made me believe that's not possible.
00:35:23
Speaker
Having tough conversations, most notably around race and racism, is kind of my jam. I wrote a book about it. I love talking about tough topics and getting through all of the stickiness, discomfort, awkwardness, and mostly fear that people have wrapped up in saying the wrong thing. Jordan shared a lot with me about how she has engaged with tough topics, especially over the last few years.
00:35:50
Speaker
I was going to say the internet has far less consequences than real life. I guess no, because it can have greater consequences. But what I'm thinking of is like, if you walked up to me and you called me a slur, I would punch you in the face, right? Like, I'm fine to fight. And you would not do that. You would find to fight. I'm fine to fight. I have no problem with confrontation.
00:36:13
Speaker
If you would not walk up and call me a slur, for the most part, right? Most people would not do that. But online, if you call me a slur online, really nothing happens. So I think while the internet, yes, does have consequences, I think in some ways it has much less consequences than real life. So I think that warps things.
00:36:33
Speaker
And I always go back and forth and I can never decide where I stand on this because sometimes I'm like, oh, I guess it's good that these people on the internet that are so bad or just being like out loud and proud bad, because then I know to stay away from them versus I think there are people that are very nefarious who are like, I'm sweet and nice. But then, yeah, go get into a bumper sticker that or go get into a car that like the bumper stickers are not so on. And sometimes I
00:37:01
Speaker
I'm like, Ooh, that's rough because that can feel kind of scary to me of me thinking I'm having like a nice normal interaction with this person and you can kind of let your guard down. And then all of a sudden you're like, Oop, no, you are very bad. And I think that can be scary, but also I don't want to be having like level 10 hateful interactions with every single person. I, I mean, I think
00:37:23
Speaker
i think i agree with you i think what would really help of more people interact because this is what i was saying i think so many people operate from a place of fear or like. I think so much hate is fear i think it's fear of looking stupid i think it's fear of having something taken away from you i think it's fear of not understanding.
00:37:41
Speaker
Through my work facilitating tough conversations, and most importantly, those that are in safe spaces with willing participants, I found the greatest barriers are the fear of sounding stupid, or because cancel culture is such a big part of our culture,
00:37:56
Speaker
being eternally marred with the shame of saying something wrong. The idea of hurting someone's feelings is another challenge. And again, these are facilitated conversations. I'm not talking about just person to person dynamics, but the idea of hurting the feelings of someone that you do or don't know, or just generally looking bad to the group is another challenge.
00:38:18
Speaker
The courage to admit confusion or say, I need clarification, is another hurdle. People don't like to seem like they don't understand what's going on. People also notoriously don't do the deep work of learning. They Google something quickly, consume a short response, and feel satisfied. But that is not the true work of learning.
00:38:40
Speaker
understanding and battling internal bias. A lot of us have very short attention spans because we are constantly scrolling. We love those quick hits of interesting facts, but we are not doing the deep work, the true work of truly learning, understanding, and becoming different. I also think that there's a formative aspect to the internet where
00:39:06
Speaker
if someone says something wrong and someone corrects them, that is public. And I'm not saying people should or shouldn't do that, but I think it can bring out embarrassment in people. And I think not everyone, no matter what your background is, you have to remember that not everyone is coming from the same place that you are. I am very lucky. I have
00:39:31
Speaker
Progressive parents who are thoughtful, who are kind, who have a variety of different types of friends. I grew up in major cities. Not everyone is coming from that place. And I think it can be helpful to have
00:39:45
Speaker
privacy to learn that you're wrong. Have one-on-one conversations to learn that you're wrong, to learn that you've made mistakes. And I think now so much correcting is done on the internet. And once again, that needs to be done. I'm not saying that that shouldn't be done. I'm not saying that we need to
00:40:02
Speaker
be precious with people who are racist or homophobic or transphobic or whatever. But I think sometimes in terms of finding people to be more receptive, I think there can be elements where everything is kind of put on such a big platform. So public people's reaction is going to be defensive rather than being like, huh, let me take a second to think about this privately because people just don't feel like they have that
00:40:26
Speaker
time? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Absolutely. So much of what you said, I was nodding furiously. While the conversations that I facilitated have been either with companies or organizations, or they've been with individuals who have signed up for one of our programs or courses through activism, or they've been at companies that I've worked at where I have led DEI work,
00:40:52
Speaker
The internet is a very completely different experience. These are strangers. Most individuals are hiding behind a keyboard and that definitely provides some unique challenges. We are all people. All you can do is try to educate yourself and grow and not make that mistake again and be open and generous when people correct you.
00:41:17
Speaker
Yeah. It's very hard. Speaking from experience, it's very hard, especially when you don't have ill intention. I think that makes it so much harder. When you say something and somebody's like, Oh, that's kind of fucked up. And you're like, Oh my God. Well, I didn't mean it to be fucked up. Well, I'm, I was trying to be fun and I didn't, and I didn't know that and did I know whatever. And it's like, yes, all that is true. And you know that within your heart. So just keep that within your heart. Say, Oh,
00:41:38
Speaker
Thank you for correcting me or whatever. And then like move on and think about it more and like go to the library. I know that sounds corny, but I really think that, gosh, I'm getting on a soapbox. I'm also like, people have no time now. So a lot of people don't have time to read a book. And I think that is going to be society's downfall is that so many people like, you know, would not have to answer questions on a one-on-one level if people
00:42:01
Speaker
Had time to research things and whatever but most of us are not given the luxury of that that time Yes, um, which I love my job and thank you for letting me have it but it's
00:42:15
Speaker
I have learned so much from books. And when I find out I make a misstep, when I find out that I didn't know as much about something, I think it's very easy to be like, Oh my God, I'm so stupid. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't I? Whatever. It's like, well, it's irrelevant. And also you can't know everything about everything. No. In the last few years, I have tried to make a greater effort to turn
00:42:40
Speaker
to literature written by people that were affected by the thing to turn to historical literature to learn more. And it's not only opened my eyes, but it's also made it so much easier to understand things, to make less mistakes because you understand the context of things. So
00:43:04
Speaker
helpful so that yeah I think that's something like I would encourage everybody but especially other like white people especially white queers it's a lot easier to not be so defensive about things
00:43:17
Speaker
I was honestly so hyped after my conversation with Jordan. I am so sad because Jordan lives truly on the other side of the country from me. I'm in New York and Jordan is in California. So that does make me sad because every time
00:43:34
Speaker
We have a convo. Every time we've gotten together, I feel like Jordan just knows what's up. I was laughing. I was nodding. I was in agreement. I was aligned. And it's just so great to have those kinds of conversations. Again, I am so grateful for Jordan's openness, vulnerability, and just candid responses.
00:43:56
Speaker
As I was talking about, you know, in my little voiceover while I was editing about how having tough conversations can be so challenging because people really exposing themselves and being vulnerable can be hard. That's kind of the same experience that every guest has on a podcast like
00:44:14
Speaker
even that's the experience I have plenty of times on my own podcast, you say something and then you think, oh, did I sound okay? Did I sound dumb? Was I, you know, using the right language or the right terminology? Did I say what I meant? Did it come out clearly? And I just really love that Jordan was letting out
00:44:34
Speaker
you know, so many thoughts and sharing so many opinions that I feel really take a lot of bravery to talk about, not because they're necessarily controversial in any way, but just because talking about these things can make a lot of folks feel uncomfortable and weary. So, shout out to Jordan because that is the work that we want to be doing.
00:44:55
Speaker
I cannot believe we're coming to the end of this season. We only have two more episodes left with guests coming up. I have Kira West, who is my co-founder of Activism, and then I have Tara Nicholas, and that is it for season one. Can you believe it, girl? I truly cannot. This has been the time of my life, but don't worry. We'll be back. We got more seasons coming up.
00:45:20
Speaker
You can follow Jordan Myrick at Jordan Myrick with a one instead of an I. As always, a full transcription of the episode along with citations can be found on my website. All of those links are available in the show notes. See you out there.