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Why Company Culture Matters with Sam Kelly, Jr.
179 Plays1 year ago
Whether you realize it or not, your production company has a culture. It is shaped by the owners, the employees, partners and your clients. But, should it be more than just the sum of the parts? Should it be curated and developed to such a degree that it is a specialty or has a particular affinity - potentially turning away some folks but drawing in others? In this episode, we talk to Sam Kelly from the production company and creative studio “Invisible Collective” about their approach to culture, how they build it, and why?
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Transcript
Exploring the Commercial Side of Film Production with James Keblis
00:00:08
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kevlis. Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning into the show.
Shaping Production Company Culture: Stakeholders' Influence and Importance
00:00:33
Speaker
Whether you realize it or not, your production company has a culture. It is shaped by the owners, the employees, partners, and even your clients. But should it be more than just the sum of the parts? Should it be curated and developed to such a degree that it is even a specialty or that it has a particular affinity?
00:00:58
Speaker
potentially even turning away some folks, but then drawing in others and having that kind of differentiation. What does culture even mean in a modern remote environment? How do you build culture and why is it important to the health of your company?
Guest Introduction: Sam Kelly Jr. from Invisible Collective
00:01:14
Speaker
To help us unpack this concept of culture and answer some of these questions is my guest, Sam Kelly Jr. from the wonderfully talented production company and creative studio out of LA called Invisible Collective.
Curating vs. Cult-like Company Culture: A Delicate Balance
00:01:27
Speaker
Sam, welcome to the show. Hey James, thanks for having me. So my first question is, is this an explainer conversation on how to build a cult?
00:01:38
Speaker
No, we could save that. You know, maybe at a concert I can get you into that. There definitely are bands and scenes I feel like I'm a proud Colt member. Maybe we have a little bit of overlap, but yeah, you know, we'll see, but I don't think so. Well, you know, this is going to be a very fascinating conversation, I think, because there is that line between your curating culture and your
00:02:00
Speaker
but maybe you get too strong with it and you get kind of cultish or you keep it open and all of the factors in there, I think I'm excited to uncover and talk about a little bit more.
Understanding Guest Backgrounds: Cultural Perspectives
00:02:12
Speaker
And you've done such a good job. I should, everyone should know that you and I actually have a little history together. We've been around each other in the business for a bit. We actually worked together for a little while. I enjoyed that very much. I've seen your career path and it's been fantastic to watch.
00:02:28
Speaker
And so on that note, if we're talking about culture,
00:02:32
Speaker
it seems even more important to me anyway to learn about the person who's sharing that particular perspective.
Sam Kelly Jr.'s Filmmaking Journey: From Passion to Education at SCAD
00:02:38
Speaker
So I was thinking that we'd get started with you and a little bit about, I guess my first question to you is how did you get into this business? Cause you, if I were to guess it was around SCAD when you went to Savannah College of Art and Design and you had a, so I saw that you had a majored in film and television. Were you, is that your entry into it or was it even before then?
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my passion for it certainly started early. Definitely going to SCAD for graduate school and doing an MFA in film and TV was sort of a step toward really legitimizing and aiming myself to have a career. I'd always been able to weave in filmmaking, video making, storytelling from an early age. I think in the time that
00:03:24
Speaker
You know, I came up in school in the, you know, early 90s, especially like I went from high eight to digital video to all these things, but I was always wanting to, you know, sort of turn all my class projects into videos, individual things, and also breaking down stereotypes or, you know, kind of exploring culture and history and connection through visual storytelling, in particular with film and video. So I always sort of, you know, had that instinct. And I definitely grew up in an environment that was like,
00:03:54
Speaker
not shy about you know kind of rolling around the news or the tv or a show or a movie and then breaking it all down and then in terms like the steps to my career i definitely you know work to involve you know filmmaking in the every part of my education so it happened elementary school junior high high school college i would say you know the turn into like legitimacy.
00:04:18
Speaker
were actually giving me like a real more of a concrete path forward happened when I was an undergrad at Western Washington University. I was like dabbling in all the majors. I was in creative writing and sociology. And then I took a film studies course that was like a comparative literature course between literary works and Stanley Kubrick. And then that's where I started understanding more film theory and things like that.
00:04:43
Speaker
And then ended up kind of segwaying into the fair haven college of interdisciplinary studies so kind of along my path also i've been sort of. Someone is going to die or wanted to start things so they know fair haven offers you the opportunity to essentially you know piece together your own curriculum and synthesize.
00:05:02
Speaker
you know major level courses in independent studies and i really hit a perfect crossroads where i've been taking these you know film studies courses but wanted to go into practice and when i got to fair haven i met somebody who is doing film and psychology and he is incredible writer and he and his best friend had to screenplay.
00:05:21
Speaker
and his best friend is someone that you and I both know who's Jacob Mosler.
Early Filmmaking Experiences: College Short Film and Collaborations
00:05:24
Speaker
He was a very, you know, incredibly, you know, established, successful first AD, you know, production manager and producer. And so there were some students. That's where you met Jacob. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was 22, 21. I didn't realize you all went back that far.
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, so he came on to basically produce the first college short film that I made with his best friend. And so that's where I was like, wait a minute. And so he came and broke the script down as an AD and had all these real concrete, I felt like next steps or opportunities that all of a sudden I realized that that's what I wanted my career to be.
00:06:01
Speaker
So, you know, fast forward a little bit through that. I made student films. I hung on and worked for the university for a minute. And over the summer, along with some other, you know, people you may know that the Pacific Northwest, we made a feature film over the weekends. And then after doing that, I thought, OK, one more step to like learn filmmaking or demystify all of the romance and Hollywood stuff.
Transition from Indie Films to Commercial Work
00:06:23
Speaker
I want to go to film school and I want to study with teachers who made films or television that I grew up loving.
00:06:30
Speaker
So I was afforded the opportunity to get to meet people at SCAD, the Savannah College of Art and Design, because while I was making this feature film, I was an active college recruiter.
00:06:41
Speaker
and an admissions counselor for Western Washington University. So I was meeting people that were representing all these different colleges. I was going through, you know, there's such a great ambassador for, for a university, Sam, that's fantastic. Oh, it was so much fun. I mean, it was like, you know, being on a solo tour, but just really trying to, you know, not similar to like what my path continues to be in, in production. It's just,
00:07:02
Speaker
you know, meeting unique and interesting people, trying to shine a light on opportunities they can have, you know, at a certain place or within a certain industry. And then along the way, I was able to kind of grow my own path toward that and went to SCAD because when I looked at the IMDB pages for all the teachers, you know, across all the different film schools that I visited, SCAD had a roster of teachers that
00:07:24
Speaker
I just really wanted to hear their stories and I understood the work that they'd made as a film fan and as an aspiring filmmaker. And so I really went to SCAD kind of as the final precursor then to start finding work and jobs in film. Yeah. And did you make a decision to go the direction, now you talk about your
00:07:45
Speaker
films that you worked on, these narrative films, short films, you know, feature films. But you make your living primarily now in client based work. When you were going to scatter at any point, did you make a decision like, Oh, you know what, I actually really like client based worker commercial work, or I tried this but didn't work or you're keeping it all in play. How did that all
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, not at all. And I would say that's the one thing that actually like really left your main to be desired at SCAD. Like I got to really learn how to budget and schedule and produce, you know, future films from people that have been in and around Hollywood and things like that. And I'd certainly studied some indies, but there was kind of next to no commercial knowledge or experience being there. But I had started to make some music videos and sort of like spec commercials and things like that just because they were
00:08:36
Speaker
Like attainable you know they were shorter form you know i could explore technique and things like that for myself with different filmmakers that way and one thing that's kind of unique about scad.
00:08:48
Speaker
you know, being in Savannah, you know, most of the student films or things that you do anywhere you point a camera in Savannah, like it looks very old. You know, it's like this colonial pre-colonial town. So I actually found myself traveling back to the Pacific Northwest to make music videos to make my projects just because I wanted to be more present day or I didn't want to be trapped in like a bad horror film of which I made many, you know, when I was there.
Leveraging Film School Skills: Early Career in Seattle
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah and then ultimately I think it was the combination of technology accelerating a little bit and you know having cameras at that time the DSLR revolution that could you know shoot decent depth of field and start to provide a more cinematic language and I'd had some success in putting together smaller crews and started to get a little bit of awareness in what commercials were what they could be but you know my first couple years in Seattle I really was just around you know organizations that were
00:09:44
Speaker
you know sort of adjacent to the film scene like my first job in seattle after scad was at mo pop or emp and i was literally selling tickets and doing group tours and then i just kind of kept you know letting you know the higher ups know that i'm from film school like i can make videos i can do this so i had some time you know uh shooting and editing curatorial videos i also was volunteering at kxp filming some in studio video so
00:10:13
Speaker
I just kind of want to get my hands on gear and start talking to people and then there are a couple key opportunities that brought me into the commercial path and this is right around the time that I gained awareness of you and who you were at the Seattle office of film and music because i left scad with the short film script.
00:10:30
Speaker
And it was a script i was really determined to make in seattle like right when i got here and so you know in terms of you know networking and finding that like i knew you're like a key person that i needed to know and that people that were around you were people that were facilitating these projects and at that time you know there was a washington film work short film incentive so i submitted that script while i was working at
00:10:53
Speaker
mopop and then I also worked at nifty for a while national film festival for talented youth supporting filmmakers and then in the process of you know sharing that script going to all these happy hours and things that were curated by the office of film and music
00:11:08
Speaker
I just was, I knew that those were rooms that I had to be in, that these were going to be people that I was going to get to, you know, that I wanted to collaborate with and I needed to know like, you're like, to hear that. I think you may have mentioned something like this before, but hearing it now, it feels, cause that's why we did those things. You know, we did those things so that people like you could just find a pathway in and start getting at it right away.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So I just took every opportunity and just sort of relentlessly just try to put myself in those rooms and show my work. And then then I was aware of, you know, commercial production companies. And then I had to find sort of a mix of like, you know, having a freelance role that was entry level and then started to meet the key people then to sort of demonstrate my chops as a producer. So, you know, kind of one of my key skills that I honed at SCAD and a role that I thought was really important
00:11:58
Speaker
to get in the inner circle. And so when I first got in commercials, I was really pitching myself as a script supervisor because you're making notes on every shot. You're in between everybody. You get to interact with the director, the DP. You get to talk to the agency or clients at Video Village sometimes and get their feedback. So I instantly was kind of in that circle and really had a couple of incredible opportunities on commercials and short films and all these other areas. And then that also then was the next step into me
00:12:26
Speaker
kind of cultivating the next relationships that would build my career.
Balancing Roles: Producer and Creative
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah. Did you make a decision to go the director route, the producer route, or even the other side of it, like the creative route? I mean, it seems to me that I know you to be a pretty creative person. So you, I could even see a path where you almost went the agency side versus the production company side.
Influence of Sam's Father: Civil Rights and Education
00:12:50
Speaker
Did any of those things kind of present themselves in front of you?
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah i mean i had a moment with that i would say i've always been a creative first and then like my skills that really work to home because i am so inspired by collaboration and love embracing new voices you really let me down the producing track.
00:13:08
Speaker
And then in terms of directing things sometimes something just shows up and my creative mind and producer mind can kind of just merge and i know how to talk to different departments and just built up those muscles that you know there are times in my career when a project either comes to my mind or.
00:13:26
Speaker
you know, a set of boards come through and I'm like, oh, this is something that I absolutely should should direct. So I've always been a producer in creative teams. When I was working in an agency, like I was the only producer in the creative team, you know, that's always how it's been. Because I think that's just like my lexicon, my vocabulary, that's what I'm championing, and the nuts and bolts of producing and the skills that I have to be effective at that.
00:13:50
Speaker
I would say are a priority for me. But yeah, I've always been a little bit of an anomaly that way because there aren't as many producers that are really embedded in the creative side. But I do feel like that's kind of been my, it's always been my way. It's always been very clear to me that I can do both.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, right. I want to talk about Invisible Collective, but before we do that, it strikes me that if we're going to talk about culture, that we're unpacking who you are in your journey and all that. But there's another piece that I know about that I want the rest of the listeners to hear. And that is, your name is Sam Kelly, Jr.
00:14:28
Speaker
And if there's a junior at the name, that implies that there's a senior and that's your dad. Right. And you, I would love to hear more about Sam Kelly senior, how, uh, what he did in his life. Cause it was pretty extraordinary story and contributions to society and, um, in your family and how that's influenced your point of view on culture as we start sliding into that conversation.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a big and epic story just about who my dad was and also just how I came to be through the union with my mom and how they even got connected. It's a really amazing and beautiful story. But it's one of those things, being a kid, coming up through school and then realizing that you're living with one of the most unsung civil rights activists, leaders and heroes.
00:15:20
Speaker
period, and then that person can show up at your school and speak at every MLK day or every Black History Month and have this lived experience, the beast forest gump. My dad was born in 1926, the last of five boys and entered the military when it was a segregated army and served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.
00:15:46
Speaker
And became an officer retired as lieutenant colonel you know but led rifle infantry divisions in the Korean War and really fought against you know the most hardcore systemic racism you know from Jim Crow and Beyond and you know Walk the path and interacted with and advise and consulted with heroes that we do know people like Martin Luther King jr Jackie Robinson and all of that you know so
00:16:09
Speaker
There's a book that was published just before he passed that was co-written by Quintard Taylor, who was a professor at the University of Washington. So really, my father's career was in three phases. There was a military career, then there was an activist and academic career where he, after retiring in the military,
00:16:31
Speaker
really focused in academia, got two master's degrees and a PhD, and then was the first vice president for minority affairs and diversity at the University of Washington. So all the social unrest in the late 60s really had to deal with the integration of society and the integration of higher education was a huge part of that. So my dad's coming from a military background, also being a really staunch academic.
00:16:57
Speaker
And coming from that tradition, Charles Odegard, the president of the University of Washington, sort of hand-picked him to come and establish that program because there was a good degree of social unrest across colleges, universities. And here in Seattle, it was definitely earlier in the phase. I think he is maybe the second or third vice president ever appointed in that kind of a position.
00:17:20
Speaker
So you hear about in our corner of the world, students like Larry Gossett who came in and sat in on protests and things like that, like my dad was the administrator. And you hear about Black Panthers who are getting locked up and my dad was the one to go visit them in jail. And these are also the people that showed up at barbecues.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I think in particular, the beautiful union of my dad and mom, my mom was equally an activist. She was somebody who, out of high school, had the opportunity to become a teacher. She also had the opportunity to go work in the Kennedy campaign. And she was somebody
00:17:54
Speaker
who always was pushing against the grain as well, who came from rural parts of Washington that had really progressive ideas and politics. And then my parents met at University of Washington and they'd both previously been married, but life happens and they found themselves in love. And my dad's first wife tragically passed and my mom had moved on from her first marriage. And then they kind of instantly knew that they were for each other and that- We can't control love, man.
00:18:23
Speaker
control this. Yeah and something about what they wanted to do in the world and how they wanted to affect change in society and how they wanted to build culture was you know through their careers and then I think there also was something deeper where they wanted to sort of contribute to the world and that kind of became me you know like I was not an accident you know so I think about that yeah a decent amount you know so I think about my purpose here and like what I
00:18:49
Speaker
You know what i sort of can live for be liberated and free of my own but also where i come from is usually important i think you set me on a path to.
00:19:00
Speaker
you know, to walk this earth knowing that I can really contribute, I can really do something because I had so much proof before me and I saw how happy they were and I think there's some expert modeling, you know, that I got to experience that, frankly, like not many people do.
Culture and Storytelling in the Commercial Industry
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. Sam, thank you so much for sharing that story. There was even more in there that I didn't know and I'm just glad that I do know it now and I think it,
00:19:29
Speaker
I think it really sums up in the idea that you've been doing culture cultural conversation was your idea actually you know we were talking about different things that we could do on the podcast you say I'm gonna talk about culture and my thought about it I was like that's so perfect I think that's exactly what we should talk about.
00:19:45
Speaker
And then you like in relation to the context of the podcast, which I'm so hyped that you're hosting it and that you know, he took over the reins is that that's something that's I think unique about the commercial world, you know, it's always trying to synthesize and you know, kind of serve up culture in some type of way. And so as somebody who really embraces visual storytelling, and I'm not shy about
00:20:06
Speaker
my love for TV or film and all of that. I also don't want to be shy about commercials and I don't want to be shy about what I think they get right and what I think they can get wrong and the process in which how they come to be. So I think I'm interested and engaged with that and I think also as a part of that too as it's continued to grow and the medium
00:20:27
Speaker
has transcended onto so many different screens and what is a commercial has changed. There's also the culture of how they're made, who makes them and where they end up. And I think there's a huge opportunity there for employment. I think there's a huge opportunity for sort of like, you know, affecting and creating change within people because, you know, that's what it's designed to do. And it's also a little bit interruptive, you know, and I think that the ways that it can be something like healthy disruption in the commercial space is something that's also kept me interested in it.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, so if I'm hearing you right, you're talking about.
00:21:02
Speaker
maybe the inspiration that has come from your family and, uh, you know, something that set you off in a journey. And you're talking about using your work in commercials as a platform for continuing that. Is that the right way to understand what you just said? Somewhat. I also think it's behind the scenes too, you know? So I think it's definitely in the work itself to create and move and shift culture. And sometimes that can be educational. Sometimes I can just be emotional and feeling and,
00:21:27
Speaker
you know, fantastical and story-driven. But I also think it's the opportunity to participate, you know, and that's ultimately what, you know, if you look at, you know, any programs that have served underrepresented people, much like the Office of Minority Affairs and Diversity at UW, and regardless of
00:21:43
Speaker
you know race class creator color and all that is really people that have been overlooked and underrepresented getting a chance to get an education you know where my parents were and i think that my role is similar to that but it also leads to employment and leads to a lot of other areas that i think yeah that need to authentically be drafted and cultivated you know from.
00:22:07
Speaker
from the diverse population that the world is, you know what I mean? And that isn't just people of color. It isn't just, you know, a box to check, you know, it's always evolving, you know, and culture changes. And I think that that's something, yeah, that's just essential to understand. And I think that's something that you sort of see in the commercial realm. It tries to evolve and then it doesn't. And then it should admit it, yeah.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, one of my missions and what I'm trying to do these days, and we'll actually hear more about this in future podcast, is also opened up that pathway to employment and career and expression for people that aren't in there now.
00:22:46
Speaker
We have some programs that we're developing out of Seattle that we're doing that we feel like this business is so, first of all, it exploits people, right? It exploits a lot of underserved people to sell stuff. But we often, it doesn't use those resources enough to keep that going, right? It's not employing those resources while it's exploiting it. And I want to see that part change and grow. I want to see the part where it's employing it and the people
00:23:14
Speaker
commercial is a form of exploitation no matter what, but at least it could be the people that are, you know, that we're talking about, be absolutely making the stuff and find employment. And there's so many pathways into this business that don't require college education, that don't require, I mean, you can, that's a good idea and hard work and there's, you know, there's even unions and there's strongly, and there's all kinds of things I think that's really healthy and ripe and I want to,
Introducing Invisible Collective: A Radically Inclusive Creative Studio
00:23:39
Speaker
I want to see that change and you're you are even ahead of that though because I want to transfer this conversation into Invisible Collective because Invisible Collective is is the change in my mind, you know, you're talking about a radically I would say a radically inclusive company, you know with a kind of a forward-thinking a different kind of approach. How do you describe Invisible Collective?
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you actually nailed like, you know, one of my favorite ways to get into it, which is, you know, a radically inclusive, always culturally relevant production company and creative studio, you know, I think, you know, the beautiful thing is that we're all really united by a mission of inclusion. And that goes beyond who we are as individuals who we are as like minded people, you know, it's being able to swim in your blind spots and to build a community of
00:24:27
Speaker
you know, storytellers, filmmakers, creatives, you know, to go out and be a part of that change, you know, ultimately. So I think you nailed it that on. Yeah. And so I'm curious about the name collective. What does that mean?
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's two things. It's definitely a little subjective, but as far as what it means in the company, it really is the community and artists and filmmakers that are a part of the work that we do. So that starts with the six of us that run the company. We are a collective of people that are aligned with this mission to affect and create change and to bring undiscovered new voices into filmmaking and commercials and all those other things.
00:25:10
Speaker
And then ultimately, it means to I think there's a building quality to it to actually be collecting people to collect and build community, you know, like there's a an ongoing effort from everybody at invisible to continue to meet and engage with new people.
00:25:26
Speaker
And I think that's something that's just always been innate with me. Oh, that's interesting. I'm a social and I'm a connector. But I write back every cold email. I take any Zoom, because you never know who's going to be there. And we really invite people to be active participants in who we are and what we're about. In some areas, there is some exclusivity. We have a roster of directors that we represent.
00:25:51
Speaker
exclusively for commercials and music videos, but then also the collective itself when we're putting together creative teams, you know, if we writers, photographers, designers, editors, you know, that's the collective is our well or our pool of talent and knowledge that we can go to that are people that we know or
00:26:09
Speaker
you know, one or two steps away from people that know who we are. So it's kind of like this ongoing chain of referrals, you know, that kind of builds up a network of people that do find themselves really united around what we're doing and knowing that we are their advocates to find that great work for them. We are their advocates too.
00:26:29
Speaker
you know, help them keep a roof over their head. We are their advocates to, you know, learn and grow and develop as artists. So yeah, I think there's always a part of a mentorship that's there, but ultimately the collective part is who we are as a company, who we are as storytellers, and that there's this ongoing effort to build community and to really tap into that to make the best work possible.
Mission and Community: Invisible's Approach to Storytelling
00:26:49
Speaker
Right. And that's different than the studio part, right? So there's a collective in the studio. I'm trying to remember if I saw. They're one and the same, you know, like a creative studio is essentially a home for our ideas. You know, that's an area where if we're doing creative development on something and a brand or an agency can ask for a certain kind of expertise that maybe they don't have. So that allows us to put together like a bespoke or unique creative team that largely is going to come from members of our collective, people that
00:27:15
Speaker
you know, are in our network or just outside of it that we think would be right. And that's also the opportunity for us to bring in people that may be sharing some of our experiences or that also, you know, expand upon the experiences that the creative brief or the script or the anything else offers, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And how did invisible collective get started? Yeah. I mean, it really started, you know, we have three core founders from invisible, Justin Pope, Mel Jones, and Steven Love, Jr.
00:27:40
Speaker
And they all came at filmmaking from their own unique and special angles. Justin's somebody who had worked in the larger agency world and also worked on the client side for a sports brand. Mel had been an indie producer producing feature films with first-time directors. And Steven is an everyday studio movie producer. And so I think they all saw the flaws and the
00:28:05
Speaker
the challenges and just the lack of inclusivity in advertising. They also saw the lack of ongoing opportunities for underrepresented directors, primarily directors of color at the onset who just didn't have enough work. Making a movie, it's like every year or two or three you get to do it. In between that, what can you do? Well, commercials are kind of interesting in that realm. The industry's always got money flowing through it. Ideally, at its best, it's looking for those new voices and those
00:28:34
Speaker
Exciting filmmakers or exciting voices to tell those stories but the end of the day there really wasn't a production company that was really centered around this inclusive concept to what each of them had seen and i think that each of our founders knew the wealth of talent that they could have so then that kind of moved on to okay let's start production company let's get our first few directors signed.
Accountability and Inclusive Practices in Projects
00:28:55
Speaker
and let's get some sales reps to kind of put us out there and understand what's there. So I think it also is built in the name of accountability, I guess is the other part of it too. The inclusion and accountability part where people know that if they come to us that they're investing and spending their money and their time with a company that really walks their talk. Right. Yeah, right. The accountability of a DEI policy, for instance.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, that can definitely be part of it. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And when, what year was, uh, was the, this all go down and get started? I mean, this started just before the pandemic. So, you know, about four years ago is when the company officially started and then I've been a part of it for about a couple of years now. So kind of like tail, I don't want to say tail ends the pandemic, but you know, year and a half or so into it, you know, is when I sort of became aware and, uh, you know, how did my first conversation with those folks?
00:29:43
Speaker
Yeah. You said there's, it's, uh, what is it? I'm trying to figure out how it operationally, how to work. So six full time, six W twos, and then the rest are 10 99s. Or how does that, how's that all work? Sure. Yeah. So we have our three founders. So two of our three founders are directors. Um,
00:30:00
Speaker
Mel and Justin Polk are directors, Steven, movie producer, and then the first hire to kind of expand and legitimize, you know, Invisible as a production company was our managing director and EP, Tracy Norfleet. And Tracy comes from a hardcore, epic, commercial background, working with all the major players, you know, in and around LA and globally, you know, so she's definitely a legend, and I've gotten to learn so much. So that was sort of the fourth hire. And then myself came on board, and then we just hired
00:30:28
Speaker
another EP who's representing directors from the Hispanic and Latino markets and also representing invisible directors to do work abroad. So that's kind of like our first step as we're growing into kind of building out this cross-cultural concept where we're going beyond our borders. We're going beyond what we know to continue to live up to our mission.
00:30:51
Speaker
Yeah. So do you have some foolproof way of deciding who gets the best job when it comes in? I can imagine like, yeah, no, no, I want that job. No, I want that job, you know, and like who decides who gets it. I mean, talking about culture, you know, like the way that that comes in and where they go, we all
00:31:10
Speaker
create the space to tend to know each other and speak about those things and sometimes it depends on the needs you know obviously a good agency or client relationship means that particular is gonna stick on that project all the way through because that's essential but then there can be you know there's so many different pathways that jobs can come in and come in reps they can come in.
00:31:31
Speaker
you know, organically, you know, people just reach out to us, you know, they can come as a part of our own networking, you know, the fruits of our networking labor going directly to brands or to functions and things like that. So yeah, there's a number of ways, but I think it's really just honoring the kind of core relationship to see the project through and that can be with the agency or client
Creative Engagement and Project Suitability
00:31:51
Speaker
producer. It also can be with a creative team. It also can be around the material itself. And I also think that there's interesting ways that those
00:32:00
Speaker
can also counterpoint each other. I've certainly had projects where I've really been so invested in the creative and the style of work or the learning opportunity to work with an agency of a different size or a different mission or a different scale allows me to grow. There's no one good answer, but we definitely take the time to be so thoughtful about
00:32:23
Speaker
who's going to be on the journey of the project you know and if that's from creative development through post or if that's from the boards through handing off all the footage you know that's something that we're really mindful of and i think our our culture of inclusion and who's who's on first you know what's on second you know we take the time to have those conversations you know every week
00:32:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I want to, I am going to dive back into the cultural conversation, but just to understand the kind of context here. So would you say that invisible collective works, does most of its work with agencies or direct to brands 50 50? How would you split it up? It's a mix. Yeah. I mean, it'll probably always change. I mean, you know, I think in the last year, like the number of projects specifically,
00:33:04
Speaker
We're probably more from an agency but some of those projects ended up being creative studio projects where we are involved in the creative so it's a little bit more of a director brand feel. But yeah I would say the pendulum swings quite a bit actually. I would say probably like 60-40 last year and then this year 60-40 brand direct or
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah. And then now I think maybe on the flip side where it's been a little bit more agency driven this year. I have to look into all the facts, but the pendulum definitely swings. Do you have a preference for one type of business or the other? That's a good question. I mean, not a strong one. I think for me, it's just all about like, how can we engage with the creative?
00:33:50
Speaker
You know, and so, you know, we've had opportunities to do creative development with agencies and direct to brand. Um, but then also like when we're dealing with scripts or boards that have come in there for me, it's just like, what's the level of engagement that the director gets to have? What's the level of engagement that the production company gets to have to make it the best thing that it can be. So I do feel like they're pretty similar. Um, I think the only area where it can really differ is in post-production. Um, and I think.
00:34:18
Speaker
That's an area that with agency jobs, we don't carry 100% into post. And so I think that's kind of fun sometimes because people have their ways and they have their collaborators. And if you get to do something really special like this thing that we just filmed last week, we won't be doing the post on it. But I know all the footage that's there. I know the depth of the story. And I know the creative team at the agency are so hyped that it's going to be something totally wild and different. It's a totally different set of circumstances.
00:34:47
Speaker
So I almost equate it to bands in the studio. Are you going to be with the producer and the label, or are you going to be a little bit closer to home and putting it together? And I don't think that either way I don't have a strong preference from records that I just listen to. But yeah, it's just a different set of things. And I think the amount of stakeholders, the amount of fingers on the project,
00:35:14
Speaker
at the end of the day it feels more similar than it does different especially now I think you know especially on the brand side too there are a lot of
00:35:20
Speaker
hunger here at creatives or a lot of creative teams that are built. There's a lot more, especially when you do something well, more eyes get on it. So then it feels a little bit more like an agency project. I definitely think it's different. And I'm glad to see that the door's opening a little bit when it comes to creative development and creative engagement, when it comes to either inheriting a set of boards and getting to add a unique point of view onto that.
00:35:47
Speaker
or when it comes to hey we have this product and this much money and we want to know what your ideas are. Yeah well so invisible has grown over the past four or five years and as it's grown
Expanding Inclusivity Beyond Racial Boundaries
00:36:06
Speaker
Does that, how difficult is it to maintain a particular point of view or a particular culture as more people are coming on, especially considering that it starts out as a black focused, you know, collective or maybe not. Maybe I have that wrong. Yeah, I would say that wasn't the focus. I mean, we're, you know, a black owned and founded organization and certainly in the time that, you know,
00:36:31
Speaker
in 2020 from all the atrocities and George Floyd and protests and beyond, there certainly became the spotlight kind of was there. It's like we've been waving our hands as like underrepresented people saying like, hey, we're out here. And then all of a sudden, like the helicopter flying over like shooting the spotlight down, like we see you. And so it's great. So it's definitely like it's a guess and thing. But I definitely think that, you know,
00:36:59
Speaker
But it's expanded over the years, right? New people have come on board and different non-black folks. For sure. I think there's a certain moment too where as a company founded by people with a live black experience that makes a subject matter experts to a certain degree to the outside world. So people want to call us for Black History Month and it's great.
00:37:24
Speaker
And those projects were really fulfilling. But I think at the end of the day, living up to our mission, living up to the best of who we are as people in the culture and status that we live in, it's about going, yes, and. It's that and beyond. You know what I mean? 100%. Yeah. So it was interesting. I think some of those earlier calls where people were after a specific slice of who we are, there was a certain amount of urgency that was there. And I think that that's just generally when people are reacting to something, it feels very urgent.
00:37:53
Speaker
And for us, it's just been our life, you know, but also in the mission, like adding listen to see plays and adding the directors that we do, like we've always known from the jump that our mission is, is who we are and beyond who we are. And that's what inclusivity is. So, you know, that's not dissimilar to like my dad's mission, you know, thinking that the Office of Minority Affairs and Diversity at UW was only for people of color. It's like, wrong, like 30% of people who came through there were underprivileged white students, you know,
00:38:21
Speaker
So I don't like having to explain that yes, we work beyond who we are because that would be very antithetical to our mission if we were exclusive in any way. But yeah, certainly the ways that we've grown I think is also indicative of our culture because we are having these conversations every day about who we are and how we want to build.
00:38:41
Speaker
and that going into our own blind spots, that going into languages and places that we are less familiar with and not tokenizing anybody along the way, but creating an invitation and a platform for people to do that. And I think that that's really driven our directorial signings, that's really driven what we can do and what we can offer as a production company is this larger well of people that we are sharing this common
00:39:09
Speaker
culture of inclusivity and sharing this common culture about how to move the needle. And I think that's kind of like, that's it right there. It's like the, there's a culture rallying around any production company around like, all right, wait, what do you do? What's your mission? You know, what do you want to make? But also like in the, in the world of like working in creative industries, I think an equally, uh, important part and maybe even more important part is, is how do you have those conversations? How do you open up the floor to,
00:39:38
Speaker
understand or learn from somebody. How do you open up the floor to engage with the creative and take it to new place? How do you open up the floor to talk about people or places or things beyond your experience? And I think that that is the area that like invisible particularly thrives is that we're not afraid of that and we create a really safe place for people to learn and grow and be involved in what we do.
00:40:03
Speaker
I think that that's the takeaway of this conversation so far, for sure. I totally see it. And it's so clear in your work and the way the company represents itself that it's driven that way. And when I think about, actually, I mean, I see such unlimited potential for invisible and expanding because it does operate from that, particularly from a creative point of view,
00:40:30
Speaker
the no fear, you know, the willingness to try stuff out, the willingness to be open, the willingness to explore, but do it in a way that is from, you know, a different point of view. And I'm bringing those voices into the conversation to drive that exploration. I just think that, I think it makes better work. I think the work, I think it shows up in the work. I see it and I can see it expanding quite a bit.
00:40:54
Speaker
Thanks yeah i think there's a certain like humble quality that's like important to share you know cuz we all wanna learn and grow and develop and you know to invite in unique points of view is sort of an exquisite risk for people to come in and feel safe in sharing all of that and like i said i think that's just ultimately like where we thrive. Do you have some kind of a.
00:41:15
Speaker
Do you have principles that you have written down that people have to understand and subscribe to to be part of the collective or any cultural founding documents that are really important to reiterate often or any things that you say? What's something written on the wall? Anything like that? Sure. I think we each have our own versions of it. We have a manifesto on our website that I think has certainly drawn people to us, myself included.
Prioritizing Safe Set Environments
00:41:43
Speaker
Another thing that's really important is, like I said, that word safety. Our safety meetings on set, we talk about having a healthy and fun and safe set environment. Of course, that relates to grip and electric and it relates to big lights or cranes on stands, but also it just revolves around how you feel and being who you are and feeling like you're safe to communicate your ideas, particularly around
00:42:09
Speaker
Actors around creatives and if you're exploring like cultural nuance or you're just portraying Anything like you need to feel safe about that and I think that you know the the safety on set in addition to all the health and safety regulations it really is sort of like a culture of
00:42:25
Speaker
safety and a culture of creativity that we really demand. So, you know, you know, no racism, no sexism, no homophobia, you know, all those types of things, like integrating that from that beginning safety meeting and giving people a safe place to go should anything arise within them. You know, I think that's something that I think people after we wrap production, they feel a little different, you know, and they feel like, oh, I want to be on the next one. So in particular, if I'm
00:42:53
Speaker
Directing, you know, I really make a point to kind of expound upon that more and I think each director can kind of set the tone of their set but you know We do have sort of a uniform statement that we like our 80s to read that talks about health and safety and that safety it kind of going beyond You know just the the lights and the stands and things like that and going into the safety of how you feel and being able to express yourself
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I love that. I've been a part of many of those conversations at the safety meeting as well. I've incorporated that into production and it's so critical.
Transforming Industry Toxicity: A Healthier Film Environment
00:43:28
Speaker
It does. First of all, it establishes a safe space and in production, things are going to get stressful. Things are going to get intense and it can bring out
00:43:38
Speaker
bad tendencies from people and knowing that there's a place like first of all recognize it before you know someone does act that way check yourself and also when it does that there's a place for someone that is on the receiving end of that to be able to talk about it to you know hey did I not see something right what you know whatever and that could
00:44:00
Speaker
That could show itself in a variety of ways that whether that's racially motivated or whether that's gender stuff or whether that's just being some kind of a bully jerk jock kind of bullshit you know whatever that you know there's having those explicit.
00:44:16
Speaker
expectations set out in the very beginning, like this is the way we expect to operate. This is the way we expect you to operate. And it goes way beyond just the OSHA, you know, electrical codes, you know, like it gets into people. Yeah. And hopefully it's a liberating transition, you know, where you can feel free to be who you are and for people to see you for who you are in an effort of being creative, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes people uncomfortable a little bit. And I think it's still making people uncomfortable. And I think that's good. And so
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Listen, our industry has had a lot of toxicity woven into the DNA about how we work. And so I think it's become more apparent that how flawed and toxic and unsafe that has been in the past. And so I love seeing these restorative moments, being able to
00:45:09
Speaker
guide our workforce to be able to guide our industry into a healthier working environment because it only makes for better creativity. Yeah, and so invisible is, um, it's, it's a bit, it's LA based and, but everyone kind of is moving around doing different jobs and different parts. Uh, you may be even entering international waters. Um, how do you keep culture while there's so much activity and so much movement and people aren't around each other all the time?
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah, so LA is our headquarters, but we definitely have satellites. Like right now I'm in like our Seattle satellite studio, you know, so I can, you know, host in person things and all of that. And we really try to honor the spaces that we all come from, you know, so we are spread out of it. I'm up here in Seattle. We have a couple in LA. We have a couple on the East Coast in Atlanta and Virginia.
00:45:56
Speaker
Fingers crossed we're working on opening a new york spot and we'll continue to have these little outposts but in terms of how we sort of maintain our Culture as those of us that drive the company and with our directors, you know, definitely, you know predictable energy Is something I'm a big fan of so we have very predictable spaces that we enter into those of us that run the company You know, we have a meeting at the top of every week, you know that's kind of structured around projects but also can open up and
00:46:22
Speaker
We also have a quarterly in-person meeting that we do and that kind of rotates between locations. So whether that's at Sundance or whether we are going to LA and then using our in-person time together to have more in-person meetings with people in markets or places that we want to show up. So that's something that I think is important. We all honor where we come from.
00:46:43
Speaker
And so there really isn't like a big push for us to be holed up or centered or focused on one thing. And so kind of these rotating meetups and things like that is important. And also in the context of other, you know, remote spaces, you know, we definitely just use some very basic tools to unpack our ideas, you know, so we will put together sort of a light, you know, outline a retreat agenda, go over certain topics and then kind of create room to play, create room to drag and drop.
00:47:10
Speaker
images that come to mind on a shared whiteboard. We can create room to do all of that. And then we also create room for vulnerable conversations. And each of us are invisible in some ways as a bit of a team leader as far as you can go to this person for these types of things, whether it's about interpersonal dynamics or whether it's about feature film ideas or whether it's about these other areas. So I think we all know where to go to, but
00:47:35
Speaker
Just the degree of respect that we each have for where we come from, that when we enter into one place together,
00:47:42
Speaker
It's really exciting, you know, and how we kind of give each other the floor if we're at a conference or something or how we decide, you know, okay, I want to go learn in this session and then, oh no, but I really want to connect with these people because I can really talk the talk and I really also understand the substance of this session or of this screening. You know, so I really feel like it's going to be really successful to our business if I can go engage with that. So it's really fun. I mean, you know, when we were at Sundance this year,
00:48:08
Speaker
It was amazing having the Sundance Film Festival happening, you know, directors that we represent that are in the festival, you know, being else and concurrently during the film festival, there's the brand storytelling conference, which has some of our clients on things that we're doing. So we were all able to kind of go as a group to some things and then kind of splinter off.
00:48:26
Speaker
and then we were all staying in one house together and then being able to kind of unpack our experiences from there about what we learned, how we wanted to grow, maybe some successful wins or leads that we really felt like we were able to kind of capture or like digital connections that we made real. Yeah, so we're always fostering that our culture, one, because we're so aligned on our mission and again, two, because our culture is creating the space for new ideas and new people and new voices and that's just the world we live in.
Admiration for Invisible Collective's Mission and Work
00:48:55
Speaker
So, you know, we're just every day, I feel like we're active participants in our company culture. Well, Sam, I am a fan of yours. I've been a fan of invisible since you pointed them out to me. And I love what you're doing. And I think it's there's so much potential in it on so many levels as we're so I'm in the cult. I want to be in the cult. You're called. There we go. There we go.
00:49:23
Speaker
I guess any final thoughts on someone that's about to break out and grow a production company or they're going from freelancer to creating a company, any thoughts and any wisdom that you might share? It could be on anything but particularly around culture and making that.
Advice for Entrepreneurs: Embracing Diversity and Understanding Your 'Why'
00:49:43
Speaker
Gosh, I mean I think you just have to really be excited to be outside of yourself You know like I don't I don't think culture is something that is you know revolves around like one vision one leader or anything like that I think it's always kind of breaking its own borders
00:49:57
Speaker
And I think that as you engage with films, commercials, TV, all of that, that's something that's really important. You really have to be willing to go into uncomfortable places. You have to be willing to also embrace points of view that are not your own and be excited by that. I'm just endlessly curious about people. I'm always looking to kind of grow in that way. So I think ultimately it should be centered around creating great work, but I think
00:50:25
Speaker
It's less and less about what you can do as a production company in my opinion. We all know what we can do. We can do live action. We can do animation. We can write scripts. We can do photography. There's more tools available now more than ever for what you can do. I think for me, my whole
00:50:45
Speaker
you know, mission and career has been guided about why, like why do I do this? Why should you work with us? You know, and for me that why is that I really care about how people are seen and reflected in popular culture, which is largely through films, TV, advertising. You know, why am I sticking with a production company and why am I sticking with my producing skills? It's because I want to continue to diversify and expand the
00:51:15
Speaker
workforce in film, televisions and commercials. You know, those are the things that drive me every day. And so I think if you're trying to start something, just think about why and like a substantive why, like it can be like, yeah, I want to make cool stuff. And it's like, yeah, but why, you know, and I think that's something that, you know, they I think should go outside of, you know, yourself, you know, anything I do think it's a service based thing when you're working.
00:51:41
Speaker
you know, the hours that we do when you're engaging with the clients and customers that we do. And so, you know, why do you want to work with those people? Well, because I'm curious about them. I want, you know, people that I work with to feel, you know, seen and heard and I want them to grow in the process, you know, and I think that, you know, it's also an area like why continues to do it. It's, you know, a field that's dedicated to lifelong learning, you know, and I think that
00:52:06
Speaker
That's something that I, you know, having parents that were in academia and things like that. That's something I've been able to embrace. And so, you know, I think for anyone looking to start something or even just engage with this industry is just thinking about your why above anything else. I love that. That is perfectly well said. And I think a perfect way to wrap up the conversation. Sam Kelly Jr. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it. Thank you, my friend. See you soon. All right. See you soon.
00:52:38
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S dot com.