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What Helps When School Feels Impossible for PDA learners
1.2k Plays3 months ago
In this episode, PDA Society CEO Ed speaks with Clare Truman, educator, author and PhD researcher, about the experiences of PDA learners for whom school feels overwhelming or impossible.
Drawing on her extensive background in mainstream and specialist education, Clare shares compassionate, evidence-informed insights into why traditional school settings can be so challenging for PDA children and young people. She discusses how anxiety, sensory sensitivities and social expectations interact with the demand-avoidant profile, and how reframing behaviour through an understanding lens can transform outcomes.
With warmth and clarity, Clare offers practical examples of what can help, from flexible approaches to building trust and safety, to creative ways of meeting learning needs outside conventional classrooms. Whether you are a parent, educator or professional supporting PDA learners, this conversation provides both understanding and hope.
Key Themes
- Understanding why school can feel overwhelming for PDA learners
- The impact of anxiety and sensory sensitivities on attendance and engagement
- Rethinking behaviour through curiosity and compassion
- The importance of safety, trust and flexibility in learning environments
- Supporting education beyond traditional school settings
Deep Diver Subscriber Episode
For those who would like to go further, Part 2, an exclusive “Deep Diver” subscriber episode, will be available through our Training Hub. You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA and autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information
- PDA Society Training Hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
- PDA Society Website: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
- PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
- PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
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Transcript
Introduction to PDA Society Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:21
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier. So whether you're a PDA yourself, a family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society.
00:00:42
Speaker
We hope you'll find this useful.
Meet Claire Truman and Her Journey with PDA
00:00:45
Speaker
Claire Truman- Hello, welcome to today's podcast where I'm delighted to be joined by the brilliant Claire Truman. Claire, would you like to start by introducing yourself, please? Claire Yes, of course. and Hi everyone.
00:00:58
Speaker
I'm Claire Truman and I've been working in education ah since 2008. ah I support students at the moment who are PDA students who learn at home, so students that can't access school.
00:01:15
Speaker
But prior to that, I worked in ah mainstream schools, specialist schools for autistic children and alternative provisions for PDA children. I've written a book called The Teacher's Introduction to Pathological Demand Avoidance that's published by Jessica Kingsley Publishers.
00:01:33
Speaker
And I'm studying for a PhD at UCL London at the moment, looking at the educational experiences of PDA children and young people. Lovely stuff.
Insights from Claire's Book and Spectrum Space
00:01:43
Speaker
and So the reason that we invited Claire here today is partly because ah her book's incredible and partly because um through her organisation, Spectrum Space, Claire provides distance learning packages for young people unable to access school.
00:01:59
Speaker
And she delivers training consultancy for families and professionals alike. And she is somebody who we always hear back really, really positive things about. um She brings this deep theoretical grounding as well as practical insight into the conversation around PDA. And I have always found in this job and in previous roles when I've called on Claire for advice that it's been incredibly useful. And so we're really
The Importance of Understanding PDA in Education
00:02:20
Speaker
hoping that that's useful to you guys as well.
00:02:24
Speaker
ah So ah what we're going to start with is a bit of a chat about um about Claire's background. But before we do, i just want to set a little bit of context. Today we are going to be talking in this um podcast about why it is so important that educators understand the PDA as they're working with and that they um understand them as individuals as well as kind of conceptually.
00:02:53
Speaker
um And this is so important because actually so many PDAs are out of school, are struggling in school or are burning out. And a little bit of understanding and a little bit of flexibility from teachers can make a world of difference.
00:03:06
Speaker
So what we're hoping is that teachers listening to this find kind of some tips and some little things that they can use that help them help the PDAs in their lives. but But also it's a really useful tool for parents who are listening to share with teachers and to share some ideas from somebody who really, really has been there and knows what it's about.
Claire's Early Experiences and Strategies with PDA
00:03:25
Speaker
So, Claire, would you like to start by telling us a little bit about why it is you work specifically around PDA? Yeah, of course. So ah the first PDAs I met were ah learning in a school I worked at for autistic children. So it was a specialist school and for autistic children.
00:03:45
Speaker
And there were a few students there. I had a class, but there were a few students there who couldn't access the classroom. And looking back, they were all PDAs.
00:03:56
Speaker
and But I didn't really know that at the time. So I was learning through trial and error. and So as well as my class, I was supporting these these students who were on ah flexible individualised programmes. They were learning outside the classroom in their own way.
00:04:11
Speaker
And I started to sort of develop PDA strategies without realising. Then someone pressed the Phil Christie book into my hand and things started to make sense. So that's Phil Christie, Ruth Fiddler, and Duncan and Healy.
00:04:28
Speaker
Duncan and Healy, who wrote a great introduction to PDA. And I started to realise that the strategies I was using through trial and error match the strategies in that book.
00:04:42
Speaker
and
Evolving Approaches and Founding Spectrum Space
00:04:43
Speaker
So I started learning more about PDA and thinking, ah, this is this is what I'm doing. Without realising it, this is what I'm doing. and And so it was really working with with that small group of students who were learning in a very different way and and finding out what worked for them ah that got me interested in PDA. And from there, I realized that it's such a great way to teach.
00:05:12
Speaker
Like ah when I went into teaching, I thought, I had an image of teaching. I went to a school where sometimes the teachers wore gowns. So I was um expecting to become a teacher, that not necessarily wearing a gown, but ah become a teacher in quite a traditional Hogwarts style, Professor McGonagall kind of thing.
00:05:32
Speaker
um
Life Apprenticeships and Distance Learning for PDA
00:05:33
Speaker
And ah what I found was actually I really enjoyed teaching. learning alongside coming alongside the PDA students and learning in that child-led facilitating learning in that child-led way that that really meets their needs um and now it's so much it's so much more fun to teach that way yeah say fantastic and so from that you've moved into both studying and kind of creating spectrum space do you want to talk a little bit about that kind of career progression
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, the studying came first. So only just before, but and the studying came first. So I was still working at the the specialist school for autistic children, still working alongside these children on individual programs and still had that one book.
00:06:25
Speaker
and I thought there there must be more and knowledge out there and at the time this was 2016 that I started I've been doing this course since 2016 but was 2016 and I thought ah there must be more knowledge out there and I looked and there wasn't much there was a bit but there really wasn't much and and so I thought well if there isn't If there aren't books and articles out there, let's write some.
00:06:52
Speaker
um So I started and studying there. I was looking at originally at a comparison between autistic children's experiences of school more generally.
00:07:04
Speaker
and PDA children's experiences of school, but it's evolved a bit. And now I'm focusing very specifically on PDA. And then spectrum space. and Spectrum space came out of a temper tantrum.
00:07:15
Speaker
So one of the and students who was on the individual program was really, really struggling. We were trying to get him back into the classroom and looking back, that wasn't where he needed to be.
00:07:30
Speaker
and And the individual program was working, but every time we tried to bring him back into the class, that wasn't meeting his needs, so it wasn't working. And he wasn't enjoying school and it wasn't helping him learn.
00:07:45
Speaker
And in a moment of temper, I am walked into my line manager's office and said, he doesn't even need a school. He just needs a life apprenticeship. Um, and then a light bulb went off in my head and I thought, this is what I want to do. I want to do life
Challenges of Conventional Education for PDA Students
00:08:00
Speaker
apprenticeships for PDA children.
00:08:02
Speaker
So, uh, I had an alternative provision that, that, um, works specifically with PDA children for a little while. And now I do their distance learning packages for children. So that meets children wherever they are, anywhere in the country, uh, it's delivered to their door.
00:08:19
Speaker
Education delivered to their door. Cool. That's I mean, that's really interesting stuff. And I know we're going to dig into it a little bit more in in the sponsors podcast.
00:08:32
Speaker
But for now, um we've sort of talked about and I've nodded along about um maybe the classroom wasn't the right place um and about how tricky things can be for PDA is in education.
00:08:49
Speaker
But why is that? Why is education such a trigger point for difficult experiences for PDAs? I think the way a lot of education is set up, the way a lot of schools are set up, because you're working with so many children, you know, when I was in mainstream, I was seeing mainstream secondary, I was seeing 150 children a day. because you're seeing 150 children a you have systems technology.
00:09:17
Speaker
you have systems and You have quite rigid systems sometimes that with clear rewards and sanctions for different actions, you have ah clear rules and you have a lot of demands.
00:09:33
Speaker
um When I go in to do training and consultancy with schools, I often invite them to to do an exercise where I give them a large stack of post-it notes and I say, write down every demand that a child encounters from the minute they cross over the threshold.
Sensory and Autonomy Needs in PDA Education
00:09:51
Speaker
in your school and to the end of the day and I give them five minutes and they get to some of them get through the first lesson you know they're writing all these post-it notes when I stop them after five minutes some of them have got through the first lesson no no one's got to the end of the day some of them haven't got in off the playground for the morning bell because there are so many demands and and I think stripping away some of those is really key i think the students that were on individual programs if i'd set my classroom up differently may have come back into the classroom sooner but i was learning on the go um and that's what i'm passionate about now as well is making sure that as far as possible classrooms are more pda friendly fantastic so what about um
00:10:49
Speaker
we if we spend a little bit of time digging into that um we talk about kind of some of the particular examples of sensory and relational and autonomy based challenges that a child or young person might experience just by being in school before we even get to kind of participating in lessons Yes, I think the last one you said is probably the most important.
00:11:15
Speaker
So autonomy based challenges, I think, are the biggest ones. i All three are important, but I think autonomy is first because, again, because of the 150 students, you're one person in a large group. You're one person out of 30. You're one person out of 1,000 in a large secondary school, 1,500. And...
00:11:38
Speaker
and And your autonomy is so reduced by that. and It's sort of line up, sit down in this seat, write down what's on this whiteboard, write it down in this colour.
00:11:54
Speaker
and And one of the first things that I try and do when I talk to schools is say, which of those things are crucially important?
00:12:07
Speaker
and And can we strip some of them back? Because actually, if you looked at all the post-it notes, and I get people to do this, if you look at all the post-it notes that you've just written down, how many of them are actually essential There are some, you know, keeping yourself safe.
00:12:27
Speaker
There are some, but lots of them are not. So I think autonomy is the biggest barrier. The lack of autonomy is the biggest barrier. um Relational challenges as well, I think, arise out of that.
00:12:43
Speaker
So and sometimes and you can get into a battle for control. There's a phrase about PDA that and it's an anxiety driven need to remain in control.
00:12:57
Speaker
and I think Phil Christie said that. and And ah that's true. but it's not the whole story. And if we focus solely on that, and I don't think Phil Christie would, if you focus solely on that, then you can end up in a battle for control.
00:13:17
Speaker
And I think that's what happens to the relation. That's where the relationship breaks down between the teacher and the student, you're ending up in a battle for control. And if you focus instead on maximizing autonomy,
00:13:30
Speaker
ah for the student, then you avoid that battle. um And then the relationship is stronger.
Innovative Sensory Strategies for PDA
00:13:40
Speaker
And sensory was the other thing you said, wasn't it?
00:13:43
Speaker
i Yeah. And sensory sensory challenges... I mean, sensory challenges ah ah affect many students in school. It's a noisy place. There's a lot of people in it.
00:13:55
Speaker
There are bright lights. There's a lot of movement ah coming and going. and And so that's a challenge for a lot of children. I think one of the things that's particularly difficult for PDA is, is that the way people try to help them manage those sensory challenges doesn't preserve their autonomy.
00:14:17
Speaker
So traditional strategies like sensory diets, for example, a lot of my PDA students struggle with sensory diets, which are often where oh ah occupational therapists will provide a list of exercises or exercises.
00:14:36
Speaker
activities that a child or young person could use to help regulate their sensory system. And that there's often a list and it's sort of do this three times a day or do this before break and after break or there'll be a set time, a set list of activities, a set order in which they should be completed.
00:14:56
Speaker
And sometimes schools have whole rooms, specialist schools more, have whole rooms set up with a little route set around the room so you you do you do the activities in a set order and they're laid out that way um and there are good occupational therapy reasons for that for the order of the activities but i find that that's that strategy is a barrier for pda students because it's too demanding and so i took those activities when i was working in in schools took those activities and created sensory menus
00:15:32
Speaker
So the students could pick which activities that they were doing in which order. There's a slight disadvantage from an occupational therapy perspective in mixing up the order like that.
00:15:44
Speaker
But the preservation of the autonomy means that that strategy then works. Some some of the things get done. something something gets done that regulates the sensory system. So I think the sensory challenges that PDAs experience are similar to those experienced by other autistic children, are the other children.
00:16:02
Speaker
a But that what helps is so different that sometimes it seems like nothing helps. And actually, if we adapt the strategies, something helps.
Clarifying PDA and Addressing Misunderstandings
00:16:14
Speaker
Yeah. it's One of the things that I always find myself thinking when I'm um'm chatting with families and with teachers is also that that it's really important to understand that our current conception of PDA is that it's a profile of autism.
00:16:31
Speaker
And that means that you're experiencing your demand avoidance and you're experiencing all of the other things that come with being an autistic person, which means that you're if that light over there is flickering, um then no amount of autonomy in your room is going to help you until that light's been switched off.
00:16:50
Speaker
And I think there's something ah kind of ah important about... um about teachers and parents not sort of going it's one or it's the other, but kind of saying what is this human being experiencing in this situation and what can I do to help? um Because actually the the two things can make one another feel a lot worse if you're kind of, if you've got no autonomy at all in a situation and your sensory need sensitivities are being kind of stretched and pulled in different directions, it's unbearable.
00:17:20
Speaker
um And sometimes just walking over and switching off a light is the kindest thing you can be doing for a person. And I think it's just worth kind of remembering both of those things. I love that thing about a sensory menu though. I haven't heard of sensory diets before.
00:17:35
Speaker
So that's a new one for me. ah Thank you for explaining it so well. um What about misunderstanding and misdiagnosis in schools? And I think probably it's worth saying here that um PDA Society welcomes all educators into any kind of ah podcast, any information sharing, anything we do. Whether you believe PDA is a thing or not, you're really, really welcome.
00:18:06
Speaker
Because often, whether or not PDA is a thing becomes an argument, doesn't it, in schools, rather than what does this human being in front of need? need And so could you talk me through kind of what can happen in terms of misunderstanding and misdiagnosis within schools?
00:18:25
Speaker
Yes.
Curiosity in Understanding PDA Behaviors
00:18:26
Speaker
And I can start it with a confession because I used to do this. and But before I understood anything about PDA, and I remember we used to talk, we used to divide what we saw. and So the actions that a child was taking, used to divide those ah as teachers in the staff room.
00:18:47
Speaker
a into making choices and reacting in a way that you have limited control over.
00:18:58
Speaker
So we used to say, ah in that situation, this student is making a choice not to do X, Y, z or ah making a choice to say that, do that.
00:19:10
Speaker
And... There's an element of choice in everything we do. But what I didn't understand was that, and and I understand better now, is that for PDA children, ah you sometimes hear the expression, it's can't, not won't.
00:19:29
Speaker
and So sometimes for the PDA children, oftentimes for the PDA children I was working with, they couldn't follow the demand or the instruction.
00:19:41
Speaker
They couldn't follow my instruction at that point because of the way I'd presented it, because of the weight of the demand, because their tolerance for demands was really low. They couldn't follow that instruction, not they were making a choice not to follow the instruction. Right.
00:19:58
Speaker
And we used to say it in the staff room, oh, he's choosing, she's choosing. and We can put in these rewards and sanctions because they're choosing. But it wasn't choosing.
00:20:11
Speaker
And I think that's that's a misunderstanding that happens quite a lot. I think especially during and the recovery period, if something's gone wrong and there's been a breakdown in a relationship and maybe between teacher and student, and maybe and there's been some distressed behaviour as well that's maybe been unsafe or caused a problem in the classroom, then there's In that recovery moment, so when everything's settled down and someone is, we're trying to repair the relationship and someone's coming back to calm, the PDA is coming back to calm.
00:20:51
Speaker
In that recovery moment, I used to hear a lot of, ah, see, he was choosing because he's fine now. And that would break that relationship again. And we'd be back in a anxious situation for everyone involved, to the PDA and me.
00:21:08
Speaker
um So understanding that something has happened because ah demand was too much. And then repairing the relationship and reducing the anxiety is what needs to happen next, not telling someone they made a choice and they need to make a different choice next time.
00:21:28
Speaker
And I did that. I did things like that. But I understand a bit more now about not doing that. So from a teaching point of view, if i'm if we've got a teacher listening to this who is in a mainstream secondary school and so is seeing 150
00:21:47
Speaker
How do you go about making a judgment call about whether what you've just experienced in your classroom is a choice or not and does it matter because because you I'm what I'm imagining is is a is teacher who probably hasn't had a chance to read ah whatever is on a child's statement if they have a statement goodness education health and care plan that just showed my age I didn't want to say anything it but education health and care plan if they're if they're lucky enough to have one um and uh and they're just faced with a behavior
00:22:21
Speaker
ah how how do they know whether or not it's a choice and does it matter?
Approaches to Teaching PDA Students Effectively
00:22:27
Speaker
I think at first you don't know. If you're working with a child that you don't know well or a young person that you don't know well, I think you don't know at the beginning.
00:22:38
Speaker
So you have to have a curious attitude about what's just happened. So the goal is to get everyone as calm as possible as quickly as possible. And the for most children, I would say, possibly all children, and an immediate sanction or an immediate instruction to calm down is not the best way to get everyone as calm as quickly as possible.
00:23:08
Speaker
when So at first, I think it doesn't matter. Respond with curiosity and reduce the anxiety. and By respond with, i haven't really explained that. By respond with curiosity, I mean, and I'm not doing that work.
00:23:23
Speaker
Thank you for telling me. I'm going to get everyone else started and then I'm coming to find out why not. So that's the curiosity. and So you're not making a promise either way.
00:23:34
Speaker
You're not saying you don't have to. You're not saying you must. You're saying, I'm going to get everyone else started and then I'm coming out to find out why. You're buying yourself time apart from anything else, but you're also opening a conversation rather than shutting one down.
00:23:49
Speaker
and So then you can find out in the discussion a little bit more about whether it's a choice or not. Even if it is, sometimes that doesn't matter. So for example, if everyone's writing about the Tudors to show me that they can do capital letters and false jobs, and someone says, I'm not writing about the Tudors,
00:24:11
Speaker
And I find out why not. And I don't know whether someone sort of really can't cope with that demand or has just had enough of the Tudors because I've been talking about it for a week.
00:24:23
Speaker
It doesn't really matter. I need them to show me full stops in capital letters. Maybe there's some flexibility. we can write about what we want. And a lot of the strategies that I put in my book,
00:24:35
Speaker
actually can be applied to more than just the PDAs in the room. So I used to have and little um line on the bottom of my worksheets that said, you might have a better idea.
00:24:50
Speaker
So I'd have the learning objective at the top. We are learning about capital letters, for example, and then the instructions. And then at the bottom, you might have a better idea.
00:25:01
Speaker
And I taught the children what a learning objective was. We write them in every lesson, but we sometimes don't teach people what they are. And then taught them that they might have a better idea for meeting that.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah. And that was autonomy. But it was also useful for students who weren't PDA and had just had enough of the tutors that week. So don't always need to know.
00:25:25
Speaker
But where you don't know, approaching it with curiosity is the way to go that's super super helpful so which brings us really nicely onto the bit that we said that we're going to talk about next which is kind of effective principles for teaching pdaers so are there any key principles that kind of underpin good practice for you yes uh the first one would be know your non-negotiables and keep them to a minimum So a lot of, i hear two misconceptions at that pull in opposite directions.
00:26:04
Speaker
So sometimes I hear you can't have any rules because the child's PDA and that doesn't always keep people safe. Because we do need to have some rules about not climbing on high things, about and not running across roads. We need to have some.
00:26:21
Speaker
and But I also hear he or she's just got to learn. These are the rules he or she's just got to learn. And those are... misconceptions that pull in different directions.
00:26:33
Speaker
But what takes us back in the right direction is really thinking about which demands are non-negotiable. And when I talk with students, I talk about legal rules and safety rules.
00:26:46
Speaker
And most things that we insist on, ah or need to insist on, most things we need to insist on are either to do with keeping people safe,
00:26:59
Speaker
or are to do with and following the law.
00:27:06
Speaker
And I depersonalise the demands. I blame them on the government sometimes or the health and safety executive. It's not my fault. The government say that you can't do this. The health and safety executive say that you can't climb on that.
00:27:19
Speaker
and If it's not safety rule or a legal rule, really question whether it's important. And then everything else can be negotiated around.
00:27:30
Speaker
Everything else is a thank you for telling me. I'm going to find out why you think that when everyone else has got started or when this happens or when that happens, I'm going to find out why you think that.
00:27:40
Speaker
um So that's the principle that underpins it, I think. ah Is it important? And if not, don't enforce it. Fantastic.
Modeling Relationships in PDA Education
00:27:52
Speaker
So that was principle one. Oh, yeah, there might be more. i I think and ah there's also the relationship between the teacher and the student, which he helps to model relationships between students and students.
00:28:08
Speaker
And I think the way we... support PDA students needs to be more modeling than instructing so with other children you might tell them what you need to do to sustain a relationship so you might say you should say please and thank you you should and open the door for someone you might give instructions yeah i'm But for PDA is I think you model it.
00:28:41
Speaker
So instead of giving an instruction, say thank you, letting the child say thank you and then saying well done. I model it.
00:28:52
Speaker
I say, and oh, thanks for doing that. That's really helped me out. Thanks for handing out the pens. That's really helped me out. I'm modeling it. I'm not instructing. And I think that sort of equal, when ah some parents were first exploring PDA went back in the 1990s, when it was first being talked when it was first being talked about And Elizabeth Newsome, the developmental psychologist who first identified it, was working.
00:29:23
Speaker
and Some of the parents who took their children to see her said, it's like my child doesn't know they're a child. And I think you could spend 18 years teaching them the difference between a child and an adult, but then they've hit 18. Then they'll be an adult. Yeah, they've hit 18.
00:29:40
Speaker
That information is of no use to them. And you've wasted all the time that you could have spent modelling things. ah and how we interact with people in an equal way because when you go into the workplace you're not going to be telling people well done you're going to be saying things and so you need to model that relationship and work as far as possible on a presumption that you are equals and unless someone's running across the road but as far as possible on the assumption that you are equal
00:30:16
Speaker
That's really, really helpful. I'd never'd never heard it quite phrased like that before. If our purpose in educating children is to support them to be successful adults, then actually kind of focusing on what they're going to need then is more important than focusing on what in this short period is what is expected of a child-adult relationship.
00:30:37
Speaker
yeah
Ineffective Strategies and Their Pitfalls
00:30:38
Speaker
That's actually really useful because a lot of the struggles that we see um between as adults and PDA kids are about that, like, don't you know that there's a hierarchy here because I'm a grown-up?
00:30:51
Speaker
And actually that is an ever diminishing day by day. yeah So that's fascinating stuff. Thank you. um So what doesn't work?
00:31:05
Speaker
What makes things worse? It's interesting, in my research, a lot of parents have said and traditional strategies made things worse.
00:31:16
Speaker
So what I was told to do as a parent by ah health visitor or a parenting class or a parenting book, what I was told to do made things worse.
00:31:27
Speaker
um Even strategies that are recommended to support autistic children in school or at home. and made things worse.
00:31:39
Speaker
And so say i think I think because they're rooted in the wrong place, they're not rooted in autonomy, the strategies, they're not rooted in maximizing autonomy.
00:31:52
Speaker
A lot of the traditional teaching strategies and a lot of even those for supporting autistic students. So things like very clear instructions, who and And I was working in a class where eight of the children eight of the nine children, when I was in the specialist school, eight of the nine children really needed clear instructions. That was what made them feel safe.
00:32:14
Speaker
yeah So it's not that clear instructions don't have a place. and But it's being aware that that strategy doesn't work for the PDA or in the room.
00:32:28
Speaker
And so they're going to need a pressure valve. They're going to need a release valve. Like you might have a better idea on the bottom of the clear instructions or knowing that they can veto clear instructions and I'll come up with something else or they'll come up with something else even better.
00:32:45
Speaker
i So clear instructions are not always a good thing. i Similarly, very simple direct language. And that can be and when you're in conversation, but it can also be the visuals that are around the classroom. So if you have a sign up that says, and look at the teacher or good look, we used to have signs in my classroom that said sort of good looking, good listening, good sitting, and which I think I'm not sure how much they helped anyone actually in retrospect, but I think they particularly didn't help the PDA is because it was just demands around my whiteboard, just stuck in pretty jaunty colors demands around my whiteboard.
00:33:29
Speaker
i So yeah, clear, direct instructions is not going to help. and But you still want the listening.
00:33:42
Speaker
because you're modeling conversation. So it's about and how you present that and being more collaborative in how you achieve that goal.
00:33:52
Speaker
And then rewards and sanctions, whole school behavior systems with, and and you'll get a sticker for this, you'll earn 10 points for that, depending on the age of the child, you know, people have stickers and points and house bags and and That system is rooted in the idea that someone's choosing.
00:34:15
Speaker
So when I was in my school as a child with the teachers in the gowns, then sometimes I was making a choice to not do my homework because I decided that a sleepover was more important. I was making a choice.
00:34:33
Speaker
So being told that there was a consequence for that choice, altered the scales. yeah The choice was then homework or sleepover and detention.
00:34:46
Speaker
yeah So it's changed the scales. But if I'm not doing something because it's oh causing me overwhelming anxiety, changing the scales so that it's homework with overwhelming anxiety or no homework with a detention just makes everything a bad option.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yes. So if things are rooted in anxiety, those systems won't work. Or they'll work at great cost to somebody. So they they'll work at great cost to the PDA for a limited amount of time until someone breaks.
00:35:23
Speaker
yeah um And that's what I see sometimes in kind of what we might call masking, where someone is trying to follow the demands more than they can actually tolerate.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah. And that's unsustainable long term. And that has had significant knock on effects for the students that I teach in terms of their mental health and their ability to engage in education in the future.
00:35:53
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:56
Speaker
Right. so that's a lot of things that don't work. One of the things that we are we talk about a lot is that success in working with a PDA can come down to one kind of core thing, which is kind of the safety within your relationship with them.
Building Trusting Relationships with PDA Students
00:36:19
Speaker
And I wondered if you've got any kind of real life examples or anything that you could pull on on around kind of how you build that really safe, trusting relationship so that it works for everybody in it.
00:36:32
Speaker
Yes. So two examples with the same student, I would say. um So this is back in the in their specialist school, ah student on an individual programme, but coming into the classroom sometimes.
00:36:48
Speaker
and And the first thing was giving him a veto. So he knew that when I presented demands or instructions or suggestions, he had to ultimate veto, unless it was a safety thing come down from that high, high place.
00:37:12
Speaker
Um, he could veto things. So he would go through his timetable in the morning. He'd come in a bit early. He'd go through his timetable in the morning and he would say, ah you've put literacy first. I cannot do that.
00:37:23
Speaker
I cannot do that today. And then we'd have a collaborative conversation about that. So I was respecting his no, I was respecting his veto. I wasn't going to try and persuade him to do literacy. I wasn't going to say, oh, you'll really love it. We're doing this.
00:37:38
Speaker
Okay, you've told me you can't do literacy today. Thank you for telling me. Everyone's going to be quiet because it's literacy. What would make you feel comfortable in the classroom that is quiet?
00:37:52
Speaker
and pick one of your regulating activities that is quiet so that's working for everybody he's learning how to troubleshoot he's knowing that i'm not going to make him do something he can't do but on that day at that time he trusts me he learns to trust me that i'm not going to make him do something he doesn't he can't do um But he's also learning to take into account his environment.
00:38:20
Speaker
People are quiet. I should choose something quiet um or choose somewhere to be. If I can't be quiet, and choose somewhere where it's okay to be loud, you know, that kind of thing.
00:38:31
Speaker
So having a veto, honoring the veto and being collaborative in the way that you troubleshoot ah builds a strong trusting relationship. And then also as a ah underpinning principle,
00:38:44
Speaker
I used to say, and I'm in control of me. You're in control of you. Because one of the things that used to sometimes happen is...
00:38:55
Speaker
because of the anxiety driven need to be in control that people talk about with PDA, he would give me instructions or give the other staff supporting him instructions and could be quite assertive in those instructions i i because he needed a sense of control, I think.
00:39:16
Speaker
i So we got to a point where i i had a, we don't make people do things they don't want to do. I'm not going to make you do something you don't want to do.
00:39:27
Speaker
And you're not going to make me do something that I don't want to do. I mean, I was quite fine. I did most of the things, but i yes and but that was the kind of principle.
00:39:38
Speaker
and And so that was a promise between us. There's a promise between us. And I carried that into the alternative provision. I stuck it on the fridge. We don't make people do things they don't want to do. That's a promise from me to the students and ah promise from the students to me.
00:39:55
Speaker
That's incredible. yeah Thank you. i think we're kind of reaching the end of this section. um i really enjoyed that. Thank you so much.
Podcast Wrap-up and Additional Resources
00:40:06
Speaker
um This is the end of our free for everybody podcast.
00:40:12
Speaker
Claire is coming back. ah to talk really particularly about EOTAS packages in our subscriber only section, which there should be details about in the podcast notes.
00:40:25
Speaker
um And of course, should you need any support by anything raised in here, have a look on our website. There's loads of information on there. And if you can't find what you need, you can always ask the support service to help.
00:40:37
Speaker
ah Thank you very much. ah Take care, Claire. Thank you.
00:40:44
Speaker
So if you want to hear more from today's special guest, then there is a longer version of this podcast available over on our training hub. Sponsors of our training hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone for free.
00:40:57
Speaker
As a thank you, they get free access to all recordings and self-guided training on our training hub. Thank you, subscribers, for your generosity. If you'd like to become a subscriber, there's a link in our show notes.