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Highly Sensitive Nervous Systems
1.2k Plays2 months ago
In this episode, host Rachel is joined by Jenni Honeyben, a parenting coach with specialist experience in supporting families of PDA children. Together, they explore the idea of highly sensitive nervous systems - a trait particularly relevant to PDAers.
Jenni shares how heightened sensitivity affects children’s ability to cope with everyday demands, why safety and regulation are so important, and what parents and carers can do to help. Through practical examples and compassionate insight, she explains how understanding nervous system responses can reduce stress, strengthen relationships, and create calmer family environments.
Topics Covered:
- What it means to have a highly sensitive nervous system
- Why this trait is particularly significant for PDA children
- How nervous system sensitivity influences anxiety and demand avoidance
- Practical ways to help children regulate and feel safe
- The role of co-regulation and connection in reducing stress
- Strategies for parents and carers to create calmer daily routines
- How small changes can make a big difference for family life
Deeper Dive Subscriber Episode
For those who’d like to go further, an exclusive “Deeper Dive” subscriber episode is available through our Training Hub. You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA/autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information:
PDA Society training hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
PDA Society Website: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
Guests links:
Jenni Honeyben Parenting Support & Coaching - http://www.jennihoneyben.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to PDA Society Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:13
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier. So, whether you're a PDA yourself, a family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society. We hope you'll find this useful.
Meet the Hosts and Guest Speaker
00:00:36
Speaker
Hello, my name is Rachel and I'm your host for this podcast. Today, we're going to be looking at the topic of highly sensitive nervous systems, which we know is particularly relevant for PDA is I'm delighted to be joined by our guest speaker for this week, Jenny Honeybun.
00:00:53
Speaker
So welcome to our podcast, Jenny. Would you like to say a few words about yourself and what your experience um is and i'm in regards to highly sensitive nervous systems? love to.
00:01:04
Speaker
Thanks, Rachel. It's so nice to be here today. Thank you for having me on. So I'm a parenting coach. um And initially, I was specialising in highly sensitive children.
00:01:18
Speaker
Okay. And we and that's the work of Elaine Aron and um Dr. Thomas Boyce. And I'm sure that so many of your parents will have gone down the route of is my child highly sensitive or is there something else?
00:01:32
Speaker
that's off
Jenny's Professional Journey and Focus on Sensitivity
00:01:33
Speaker
That's often the route we go down. I think they're just highly sensitive. I think there's something, but I'm not sure what it is. And um so my background is I worked in a school for 10 years.
00:01:48
Speaker
So I worked with lots of children with lots of different neurotypes within that system. um And funnily enough, a couple of my favorites for the PDA is they tend to, well, they do tend to have really great personnel. I mean, PDA is there something that just such great personalities, but I also think historically, um I think looking back, i I grew up around some people who I wonder, certainly highly sensitive to nervous systems. And I wonder if there's PDA there, there's been nothing diagnosed. So I think I'm just kind of primed for um supporting people in that way.
00:02:23
Speaker
yeah And I have done a lot of, I am a highly sensitive person and I've done a lot of work on myself because I suffered with um really crippling anxiety for years and years, panic attacks and all sorts, have agoraphobia, all sorts of things.
00:02:38
Speaker
And I've kind of worked my work backwards to unpick all of that. And then I was bringing that into the school environment. All of my unpicking went on a bit before I started working in school. And then I started working in school and I wasn't a teacher, i was going to be a teacher.
00:02:51
Speaker
But then I thought, I just, teachers are amazing. I don't think I could do that. But what I love is supporting children in small groups and individually with their emotional wellbeing. So that's kind of what I did. And my, the head teacher was the school that I worked at was just so amazing. Every time I took to her, oh, I'd like to do this training or I'd like to do this ah professional development, she'd go, yeah, do it. So I over 10 years created the mental health wellbeing department.
00:03:17
Speaker
ah which got such lovely feedback from Opstead and the church. We were part of a diocese. So it was a great place to work. But then I went off on my own and I was working with children one-to-one first of all.
00:03:30
Speaker
And then the parents would say to me, what you're doing is really helping, but what do we do? I'd go, well, I'm not a parent myself. And so I'd go, I wouldn't do what I'm doing therapeutically and interventions as a parent. What do I do? So I trained as a parenting coach, but with all this kind of understanding about high sensitivity stuff. So I started off with the highly sensitive aspect.
00:03:53
Speaker
And then what I was finding was I was getting parents coming to me saying, I think my child's highly sensitive and we'd get six weeks in and I'd go, I don't think it's just high sensitivity. i think there's something else.
00:04:05
Speaker
And and often would turn out that it was either autism or PDA or both. OK.
Understanding Sensitivity and PDA: Key Concepts
00:04:12
Speaker
And but what I was also finding was a lot of the stuff I was doing because I wasn't doing conventional parenting coaching, it was always in line with high sensitivity and in line with the nervous system, in line with things like somatic experiencing.
00:04:25
Speaker
and internal family systems because I either trained in those or had deep personal experience of those. It was actually working really well. And so now I i would say probably 30% of the people that I work with, there's um autism and PDA there.
00:04:43
Speaker
Yeah. that's Yeah. Round trip of how I got to where I am. But that's that. Yeah. And and I suppose it's great as well, because you've not only have you got the professional and angle to it as well, you know you've also got that personal knowledge as well, which is we all know is that when you're connected with something personally, then your level of understanding is much greater, isn't it?
00:05:05
Speaker
So I guess and a great place to start really for the podcast would be, you know, what is a highly sensitive nervous system? We talk, ah we often talk about our nervous systems when we're talking in the context of PDA, but what actually is a highly sensitive nervous system? and What does it look like maybe sort of, you know, in terms of behaviors or what does it feel like?
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good question. So a highly sensitive nervous system is When we're looking at people who are highly sensitive, whether that is highly sensitive, whether that's a neurodivergence as well, it's that in two but in basic terms, there are two things going on.
00:05:43
Speaker
They are picking up on more subtleties from the world around them, but also internally, they're interoceptive, which is our internal sense of what's going on for us. So are we hot? Are we cold? Are we thirsty? Are we hungry? Do we need the toilet and all of our emotions?
00:05:58
Speaker
That is kind of wired differently and we're sensing more subtleties. And because we're picking up so much more, the kind of the brain gate that's fielding the amount of information that we're taking in at any one moment um works differently. So we end up taking in more information.
00:06:15
Speaker
We process things at a much deeper level as well. So it takes us time to process the situation and we can't, we're not, you know, Thomas Boyce talks about the orchid and the dandelion, okay?
00:06:29
Speaker
And that's in terms of high sensitivity, but I would say it's also in terms of our PDA children. um The orchid is the highly sensitive, so you you change the environment slightly and it wilts, okay?
00:06:40
Speaker
The dandelion children, you basically feed them a bit, water them a bit, give them a bit of love, and they tend to be fine. And subtleties are kind of water off a duck's back to them, that it doesn't affect them greatly.
00:06:51
Speaker
So the environment externally and internally really affects a highly sensitive child because of that sensitive nervous system, because of that ah breadth and depth of processing.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah, and that's so that's really interesting analogy, actually, isn't it? with it With the orchid and the dandelion. and I like that. Yeah, because, you know, dandelions are that sort of, you know, as you say, they'll grow, you know, they grow anywhere, they cope, don't they? yeah Whereas orchids are really, really delicate and need and need really niche conditions, don't they? So I suppose moving on from that, then, is why do some people have these more highly sensitive nervous systems then? Is it is it is it always linked to ASD or, you know, iss other is it linked to other diagnoses or is it just that some people just do have, are you know, are more highly sensitive?
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah. So what we know from the work, the research of Elaine Aron is that 20 to 30% of the population have a more sensitive nervous system. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
Absolutely. And it's a, it's a genetic variation. We are wired that way. and if you, and it's within what they also know is it's within every species. ah Okay. Um, plants, animals, everything.
00:08:06
Speaker
it's within every species, there are more sensitive nervous systems. And if you think, I don't know how well you know dogs, but if you think about dogs, you've kind of got your Labrador who, you know, the postman might come to the door and give it a knock and it might look up or it might kind of saunter over and visit the postman.
00:08:22
Speaker
And then if you're like me, you've got a Spaniel who's got a very highly sensitive nervous system. He can hear the postman, i don't know, 50 paces down the road, the slight chink of the letterbox and he's up at the window, woofing his head off.
00:08:33
Speaker
in anticipation of the post and that he likes the post and the postman brings treats. But that's it's it's genetic variation and kind of way back when we're supposed to within within our society, within communities, we're supposed to have that genetic variation for that sensitivity because we would have been the people within the tribal communities that would have sensed changes in the weather or sensed changes in kind of society and what was happening. And with the we often called the canaries in the coal mine. We're the ones that get affected first by changes that don't suit everybody.
00:09:10
Speaker
So we kind of go, warning, danger, this isn't good for everybody before everybody else has kind of recognised it. Right, okay, yeah, that makes sense then, doesn't it? yes there' ah as a tribe then, now that's, you know, we've we've we've got those people that were i set us on high alert for when there's danger coming. So as you say, it's ingrained in our DNA, isn't it?
00:09:32
Speaker
So what then are for people with highly sensitive nervous systems, that physiological changes that happen when this nervous system is activated, what's the, you know, how does it feel so inside all those good, is that you able to describe that?
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah. So I think what you're asking there is when you go into a sympathetic stakes, there are two branches of the nervous system, which I'm sure you know about and lots of people watching this will know about too. There's the sympathetic and the parasympathetic.
00:10:00
Speaker
In very basic terms, what we what we get told is the sympathetic is fight and flight and the parasympathetic is rest and digest. And people therefore think that the sympathetic is bad and the parasympathetic is good. But as a well-rounded human being, we need all, it's like a ladder essentially, and we need to be able to go all the way up and all the way back down.
00:10:21
Speaker
And in terms of regulation,
The Role of the Nervous System in Sensitivity
00:10:22
Speaker
what regulation, that I've gone off slightly on a tangent, but what regulation is, is being able to go up and come down with ease without getting stuck in one place or another. OK, because part of the part of the sympathetic system is actually our SES, our social engagement system. so If this is kind of baseline, mean but if you notice when you're in a social situation, I can notice it now.
00:10:46
Speaker
There's kind of an energy that I think have before the call. And there is a slight raising of my heart. So there probably is a little bit of sympathetic activation, a little bit of fight flight, because we don't know each other very well.
00:10:58
Speaker
We've had a call before this, but that's normal, isn't it? When we meet somebody, especially if we're more sensitive, we go into our social engagement. We might go slightly higher into a bit of sympathetic. But I think what you're saying is when you go into a sympathetic activation, into a fight flight response, what are the physiological changes in the body?
00:11:16
Speaker
Right. but Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a good question, because what we know about our highly sensitive children is that they are more predisposed to going into is more they go into a fight flight response much more quickly than your average bear okay and so what happens is the the threat will be sensed and then there will be a hormonal cascade within the body telling different parts of the body to do different things and okay so adrenaline and noradrenaline will be released and then that will do things like affect the cardiovascular system the heart
00:11:51
Speaker
um and the respiratory system, the lungs to get more oxygen to different parts of the body. So that might feel like the racing heart or the shortness of breath or slight tingling in your fingers or lots of energy being released.
00:12:04
Speaker
um It will also contract our digestive system because that's not an important system when we're in a flight. So the blood will be sent. The other thing that the cardiovascular and respiratory respiratory system is doing is they're sending oxygen, but they're also sending blood to the key organs that we're needing in a fight flight situation. If that, you know, you know, way back when, if there was a bear chasing us, we would need specific organs, heart, lungs, muscles, et cetera, to be able run away or fight. OK, so it's sending blood and oxygen to those.
00:12:35
Speaker
You've also got your stomach and your digestive system shutting down. So you might suddenly really need a wee or really need the other. OK, your digestive system is trying to clear you out so that you've got less weight in you, but also because that system isn't useful when and it also might make a bit sick or just really not hungry.
00:12:55
Speaker
And then you've got other things like your pupils dilating so so that you can really focus on what's going on around you and your muscle tone increasing so so that you could run really fast. So there's lots of flight response that's going on, which is why it can feel quite uncomfortable. can imagine, yeah. And also very, ah can feel overwhelming as well. There's an awful lot of stuff going on, isn't there? And your body feels tighter and tense.
00:13:21
Speaker
And I suppose for children or individuals then, that um you know for for some autistic people that don't necessarily um are able to read the signals in their body as well as other people, then that can it can be very confusing.
00:13:37
Speaker
It can be very difficult for for them to put labels on things. so i don't understand what's going on. Exactly that. And at the same time, you know It can feel really overwhelming because what we know about um highly sensitive people and particularly our autistic people autistic people and PDA is, is that they have a difference in the way that their interceptive system works. So some children find it very hard to notice sensations and some children pick up on those subtleties so much and the smallest thing can feel quite overwhelming.
00:14:09
Speaker
And sometimes it's a bit of both. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So some might be more in very in tune, almost like over in tune with it. and that Whereas others really, really struggle to to read what those signals are. So yeah, yeah. it's a complex picture, isn't it? It really is. And does the vagus nerve play a part then within this, within this trying to regulate this system?
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah. So the vagus nerve, the nervous system is a, is a, a kind of network of neurons all over the body and they're our key sense so we've got neuroception which is one of our internal senses as well and that's that's where we sense what's going on externally from us so interoception is it ah is working out what's going internally and neuroception what's what's going externally and it's because we've got all these nerve endings all throughout our body they're they're like little antennas constantly picking up on things and the vagus nerve is a big is a big new essentially like a big nerve that's going throughout the body so they all kind of play off that so when so when you've got a more sensitive nervous system and and i'm not an expert in this at all but i do know with with
00:15:16
Speaker
particularly with autism, the vagal tone is different. So um it may not be so flexible and in kind of going in and out of states quickly. It might kind of get stuck because it just doesn't have that toning that other neurotypical systems have.
00:15:33
Speaker
But again, I'm not an expert in that. um Yeah, no, that that that does it that does make an awful lot of sense though, doesn't it? Which is why there may be that, and you know, some PDA has found it really, really difficult to when they are elevated, if it's getting stuck almost in this really highly and observational state, if you like, and it in this, it's almost like this panic state, it's really hard to regulate back down.
00:15:58
Speaker
So yeah, no, that's really interesting. And behaviorally, the two things that are really important to know, and I'll take it right down to base with a bit of an in-depth science lesson then, but but if you take away two things from this from this chat today about how the nervous system works in terms of your PDA, ah it's that when they go into a fight or flight response, and you may well know this already, um there's something called the hand model of the brain.
00:16:26
Speaker
um that's quite often used in talking about children with big feelings, okay? And if we think of the brain as going back in three layers through history, we've got the neocortex, which is our um human brain, that's where our language, our logic, our reasoning, our ability to empathise, all the things that make us human are in this part of the brain.
00:16:44
Speaker
Then underneath where my thumb's tucked in is the limbic brain, that's the mammalian brain, so that's going back a little bit more in history. And that's to do with our motion our emotions, our amygdala is there, so our fight-flight response.
00:16:56
Speaker
is in this part of the brain. And then we've got kind of where my wrist is, the brain stem. And that's where things like ah breathing, rape, pupil, dilation, all those things that are unconscious, that's where that happens, okay?
00:17:10
Speaker
And when a child is triggered into a fight flight state, what happens is this part comes offline, we call it flipping flipping our lid, okay? And so what's happening is because particularly with children,
00:17:23
Speaker
because um they are ah their brain is still and under construction essentially. there is ah There's a set of neural pathways that builds an almost like a staircase between each section of the brain as we get older. So ah as an adult, we're quite tethered together in terms of our brain states. But as children, that staircase isn't very well formed yet. So when we do when they do go into a fight flight response, they do flip their lid.
00:17:49
Speaker
with that into this part of the brain because this part's offline, okay? Which is why so many families come to me and they say, Jenny, it's like they're a wild animal. They're having these meltdowns and it's literally like, they don't look like them. Even within their eyes, they don't actually look like them.
00:18:07
Speaker
It's quite frightening. And I always say that's because we're all animals and what you're seeing is their limbic brain states. You know that this human part of their brain is offline. This part of the brain,
00:18:19
Speaker
finds it really hard to take in language. It's much more to do with the sensory systems. So it's constantly seeking out, um if this is going, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? Through that neuroceptive system, interoceptive system, through the sensory systems, it's feeling into, am I safe? Am I safe?
00:18:37
Speaker
And when it's, if we don't want logic and thinking, we want fight flight, okay? As soon as it goes, oh okay, there is there's a degree of safety around me. I've sussed out with my spidey senses that actually things feel okay. not They don't sound okay. that It's not reasoning. It's not someone's told them it's okay. It's a very much a felt sense. Things feel okay.
00:19:01
Speaker
This can come back online and then we are more likely to be able to reason with them. yeah but Yeah, does that you know that one probably anyway, Rachel, don't you? But I just think it's a brilliant analogy. And if anybody is at listening to the podcast and not looking at the visual, then please later, what if you're driving or something, please check out the the visual later. cause I think it's a great and it's a great illustration that is of exactly when we can see these different states in our children,
00:19:31
Speaker
and and actually what's going on, what's actually happening and they they can't help it, can they? that when they get that When that wild look comes on, that's not by choice, they're not choosing to ignore what we're doing, they are just in that state and that, yeah, that's great.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah, really good. And the other, the second thing to ah kind of picture in your mind when you're thinking of the nervous system is essentially, um if I'm taking it right back to basics, is we could think of the nervous system being like a cup It can only hold so much in terms of capacity.
00:20:06
Speaker
ah okay And if you think about having that highly sensitive nervous system and sensing stresses that other people might not be stressing or feeling those stresses more intensely than other people might be feeling them, that cup is going to fill up much more quickly than other people.
00:20:23
Speaker
And it's when we get to the top of that cup, which happens much more easily and much more frequently for our more sensitive nervous systems, that's when we see it could be the meltdowns, it could be the it could actually be the freeze response, it could be um it could be the opposite, it could look like kind of glazed over can't talk, loses access to language, that kind of situational mutism, things like that.
00:20:45
Speaker
Could look like tics, could look like anxiety, can look like all sorts of things. But that's when the nervous system gets to the gets too full, that's when we see the behaviours. And that's when the brain flips into that, and you're just dealing with the limbic system, really.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it' a but We often talk about and overwhelm for PDAs and it's that's when it's when it's just as you say, the cup is full and that's it, that you know, that the the system can't cope anymore.
00:21:13
Speaker
OK, that's great. So if we
School Environment Challenges for Sensitive Children
00:21:15
Speaker
start thinking then from parent's perspective. and So when we see a child's refusal, for example, to do an activity, maybe, you know, and that you know they're refusing to go to school, for example.
00:21:30
Speaker
and Is we seeing this as a nervous system response? Is that their refusal to go to school because then of their nervous system? And does that does this mean, therefore, that they they dislike all parts of school? Is the whole thing about school overwhelming for them? Or should we dig in and pick it apart a little bit more?
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the last part that is absolutely right. We need to dig in and pick it apart a bit more because it's never as black and white, even if a child is consistently refusing to go to school and is saying things like,
00:22:02
Speaker
I hate school, I don't ever want to go again. And you said, there must be something. No, there's nothing. There's absolutely nothing I like about it. That's actually just their protective parts coming into play. Okay.
00:22:14
Speaker
That's how they are protecting themselves because there have been too, the likelihood is there have been too many situations where they have had that overwhelmed feeling going on for them and not enough support to be able cope with the situation, to co-regulate with someone, somewhere to go, something to do that would really help to regulate them.
00:22:36
Speaker
there' been too many opportunity There've been too many instances like that and their body has now just got to the point where they've gone, no, blanket no. It's happened too many times. It's too overwhelming for me.
00:22:49
Speaker
So it's always like um a cumulative effect then, isn't it? it's It's too many knockbacks will result in this nervous system just saying no, basically. Yeah. It's so hard, isn't it, Rachel? Because,
00:23:02
Speaker
because but and what we know about our PDAs is often they are ah masters at masking and so it's not always obvious when when something is over, even when they're overwhelmed, isn't in a school environment, not with us, in a school environment, it's not always obvious when they're overwhelmed at all um and they do often seem to be really enjoying themselves and I think that's ah something that's really important to pick up on is the fact that it's not that your child's doesn't enjoy school in general, it's because they're nervous it's because their nervous system just feels too overwhelmed by the whole thing. And, and you know, often schools, even the most accommodating schools where perhaps you've got a reduced timetable, et cetera, it's often not based quite enough around the child's needs. and that's understandable. schools Schools are really up against it, particularly just now.
00:23:54
Speaker
They don't have the resources to be able to handle every single ah neurotype and and and preference and um all of those things, but it's actually a very clever way of their body just going, no, that that whole situation just feels too much for me. And if you know what it's like with a PDA, if you if you could cherry pick in school things that they actually enjoyed and, oh no, if you want to come home at any point, you can just come home, they'd probably okay with that.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think as well, i think sometimes the child themselves doesn't necessarily know without your support, which bits of school that they're really struggling with, what aspect it is, because as you say, the whole thing is just cumulative, the nervous system saying no that is causing me too much anxiety, I can't go.
00:24:47
Speaker
But for the, end never mind for the teachers or for the parents trying to unpick it, for the child to unpick it, that's also quite difficult, isn't it? It's trying to put your finger on, there's something about it I don't like, but I can't,
00:24:59
Speaker
necessarily work it out or process it to find out exactly which bit it is that's really, really causing me that that anxiety. I know for my PDA, yeah we really struggled for um months and months and months to work out why suddenly he started not wanting to go to school, but he couldn't tell us he couldn't work it out We had to really sort of dig deep and liaise with the school and back and forth, back and forth until we eventually worked out it was one.
00:25:27
Speaker
It was part of reward system, which is a whole other story, which I won't go into, but it was something for him he couldn't cope with. But it was causing him so much anxiety. So it's a tricky one, isn't it? is it' It's trying to really dig deep and find out what's at the core.
00:25:42
Speaker
And you've hit the nail on the head there, Rachel, because they and children don't have the neural architecture to be able to flin think reflectively in the same way as adults do. Metacognition, which is our ability to notice, ah especially when you're autistic or you've got PDA, notice how you're feeling.
00:25:59
Speaker
um link it to something that that's gone on previously, to assimilate that in your brain into language, to be able to explain it to someone else. I mean, so many adults struggle with metacognition, let alone a child, which is why the scaffolding that you clearly so beautifully did along with the school is exactly what's needed.
00:26:19
Speaker
That kind of an exercise that I would often do with and children with PDA, neurodivergence in general, but particularly my PDA is when I was working one-to-one was we would, I would have little,
00:26:32
Speaker
bits of paper with kind of my guesses as to what the struggles were in s school. So it wasn't, you know, there was no pressure around it and we'd play a game or throw it in the no basket or throw it in the yes basket. So they got to scrunch up the piece of paper and throw it in the basket.
00:26:48
Speaker
And there was no further conversation after that, but it gave me more information as to, you know what things do you are kind of resonating with you? Because I think with
Sensory Processing and Environmental Impact
00:26:57
Speaker
children, when scaffolding is really helpful, and what I mean by scaffolding is kind of going, I wonder if it's this or could it possibly be something like that? Even if they say no at first, don't underestimate that they're still processing that. That might come back later as a, hmm, maybe it was that.
00:27:16
Speaker
But also it helps them when you're throwing something at them as a kind of yes, no answer. it helps them because they can feel this sense of, oh yeah, i feel understood or, oh no, it's not that, I definitely don't feel understood.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Now that that's really, really helpful. I suppose as well, the the physically throwing something into a basket is helpful as well, isn't it? Because it feels like they're, you know, they're sort of, and you know, physically throwing away that stress as well, which I suppose in long term will help them start to build back to build back and and be more accepting of of a certain situation.
00:27:54
Speaker
So Do people with highly sensitive nervous systems then often have sensory processing differences as well? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's right back at the beginning of our conversation when you were saying, what is what is having a highly sensitive nervous system?
00:28:12
Speaker
It's that depth of processing. It's almost our brains in a, you know, we all get, you know, whether you're neurotypical, who's, who's neurotypical, but you know, that phraset be whether you're neurotypical or not, um we all get bombarded with the same amount of sensory information in the moment, but some people's brains are better able to filter out some of that sensory stimuli.
00:28:38
Speaker
So yes, there's absolutely that kind of, and ability to sense more um which leads and but also as we were saying before the kind of interoceptive system the ability to feel can lead to things feeling quite overwhelming quite easily so what the typical things are kind of bright lights loud sounds yucky textures labels all of those water for some children is just an absolute no-go dirt on your hands whatever it is Yeah, there can be absolutely sensory differences there. And and as we know, sometimes children are more sensory seeking and sometimes children are more sensory and averse.
00:29:18
Speaker
um Sometimes they're a really good mixture of both actually, which can be really confusing. yeah Yeah, yeah, definitely. I know, what I know with mine, he, you know, for some, some things he, you know, he's got sensory differences as well, but some things it's hypersensitive to and some things it's hyposensitive to and you think, right okay, right, which way round is it for this, for this aspect? And what, you know, what is it that that's triggering for him? And what therefore does he need, you know, and it's, it's, ah yeah but it's, it's important to to work out, as you say, because actually, those sensory
00:29:50
Speaker
the sensory environment for them is a huge demand, isn't it? It's huge demand
Support Systems and Coping Mechanisms for PDAs
00:29:55
Speaker
for us all. If we're in in an environment that we're too hot, we're too cold, it's too bright, there's nothing you can do about it. you body Your body's just not coping, is it? in it it's we talked that We were talking right before we started recording about how hot it is at the moment. And actually, in my body, I just go into meltdown when it's too hot. I just can't cope.
00:30:13
Speaker
And it's that, but on a regular level, isn't it? It's that everything else begins to shut down. So it is important to take those sensory differences into account as well. It really is. And even if even if they can't articulate, articulate what their sensory differences in, they're going to be giving you clues.
00:30:30
Speaker
You know, it's just it's the what you have when you've got a child with neurodevelopmental differences, you have to become a detective anyway, don't you? Like that's part of the job. It's like, oh, his face is grimacing. Does that mean, does that mean X, Y or Z?
00:30:44
Speaker
But it's nice to that. And if we think back to the limbic part of the brain, that kind of thumb tucked into my fist, that limbic part of the brain is all to do with, am I safe? emotionally and relationally and situationally, and it's working through the sensory systems, okay?
00:31:02
Speaker
So it's constantly searching through the sensory systems for, am I safe, am I safe? And if you are more sensory sensitive, if things impact you more or feel more overwhelming, that's going to lead to this part of the brain going not safe, not safe. And therefore we're going to have the lid flipping and more meltdowns or whatever the behaviour looks like for your particular child.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think we touched on this little aspect, um, a little bit earlier. we We, we mentioned masking in passing, but that, um,
00:31:32
Speaker
The next question that we've had is about um a child and we hear this a lot on our support service, on trainings that we do with parents. This is, it you know,
00:31:44
Speaker
Most days we will have the question similar to this, which is about my child is described as being perfectly engaged at school. And yet the minute they get home, the meltdown happens.
00:31:57
Speaker
So why is this if their nervous system is getting agitated, if it's if if it's becoming, set you know, that if the sensitivity is reaching that limit of that cup,
00:32:10
Speaker
how can they can keep that lid on it in the analogy, run up in school and then it just comes out, it falls off immediately, they walk through the door. Yeah.
Understanding Meltdowns as Trust Signals
00:32:20
Speaker
It's a question I get asked all the time as well. And and it's so confusing for parents because it it you know it doesn't seem to make sense. if you can do it If you can do it for this person, if you can do it in this environment, if you've got this level of self-control here, why can't you do it here?
00:32:37
Speaker
and again it's to do with safety isn't it and it's to do with you know for most PDAs having ah person who feels safe enough to anchor them and to co-regulate with is really really important isn't it it's one of the questions we're coming may maybe coming to later on is this kind of you know, why is my child constantly needing me? Because because if you've got ah nervous system that you can't trust, okay, you are as a small person with very little control of your external environment and what you do and where you go and who you're with and how things happen, you've got actually very little control of that largely,
00:33:21
Speaker
um and you've got this nervous system that kicks into a fight flight response, this like fast heart, sicky tummy, um can't think properly, feels overwhelmed, feels panicky. If you've got that going on really regularly,
00:33:38
Speaker
we're going to want someone next to you and in a school environment with the best will in the world, even if they have a one-to-one support with them, that one-to-one might not always be there. That one-to-one might not always, if it's in if it's in the state system particularly, um and is kind of a a conventional school,
00:33:56
Speaker
and for want of a better word, um then then that person might not be specifically trained in working with a highly sensitive, it they might not be hugely attuned to your child, they might not feel like a really safe person all the time. And if we think back to the nervous system being like that ladder and the fight-flight response is right at the top of the ladder and the freeze response is at the bottom of the ladder. So there's this sympathetic is the top, the parasympathetic is the bottom, it's rest and digest but then it goes down into freeze.
00:34:27
Speaker
When a nervous system is overwhelmed, when there is no option to fight or flee, it will go into a shutdown response it will go into a freeze which can sometimes look like a fawn as well okay they might go into a fawn or a freeze response so they might just they might look like they're concentrating and listening it's like the lights are on but nobody's home because if you actually ask them a question they probably about what's going on in that lesson they probably wouldn't be able to answer they'd find it really difficult And so what's happening is they're going into a freeze-forn response, which again is that the brain is still offline, the human brain is still offline, therefore they still cannot learn.
00:35:06
Speaker
And then when they're coming home because you are safe, they've got this backlog, I call it this, I call it the backpack of rocks, okay? So in school, if you imagine your child's got this backpack on, and every time something happens that jangles their nervous system into this, even if it's not, even if it's fizzy rather than a full flight fight response, okay?
00:35:26
Speaker
into this fizzy situation, um there's no one to co-regulate with them. There's no one to say, I need you to do this, or I can't do this, or I don't want to do this too, because that's not socially appropriate in that environment. And they know that because actually what we know about our PDAs is they're really often very attuned to what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, what other people need from them, what other people are expecting of them.
00:35:51
Speaker
They read the subtext often really incredibly well. is the rock goes in the backpack. Okay, gonna have to carry that for later. And then when they get home, they've got this backpack of rocks on and they see you and they go, oh, thank goodness. And they hand the backpack of rocks over to you, which often looks like a meltdown.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Yeah. i mean um I suppose, you know, for a lot of parents, it's like, you know, why is it for me? Why why do they, you know, why are they kicking off for me yet? They've been absolutely fine in school or elsewhere. But as you say, it is because they trust us so much, isn't it? It is. big its It's almost like a backhanded compliment, isn't it? They trust us so much and that they are, you know, we, they can regulate with us. They can show their true feelings, can't they?
00:36:37
Speaker
Absolutely. can And they can one of the kind of five pillars that I talk about with parents of um supporting a child with a more sensitive nervous system is regular emotional expression.
00:36:49
Speaker
And so when I work with parents, I often say I know they're really difficult, but a tantrum physiologically is really or a meltdown is resetting their nervous system.
00:37:00
Speaker
so it's really good for them and it's super important that they are having those regular times of meltdown or tears and tantrums because what you will know from having a pda yourself is that after the meltdown they are the most wonderful version of themselves they're back to they're back with you know that you know we were talking earlier about the wild animal part of themselves and then the more human part of the brain coming back online that part can come back online because they have physiologically reset So almost, and I know it's not always available because for some children there is kind of um real volatility and and aggression and things and that can be incredibly, I'm not saying that's easy to deal with as a parent at all or easy to welcome as a parent at all.
00:37:42
Speaker
um But if you can, welcome the fact that they are releasing in some way. A, it can help you to feel better, like not, what's wrong with my child? Instead
Parental Self-Care Strategies
00:37:52
Speaker
you're going, oh, the reset, it's happening. This is gonna make life so much easier afterwards.
00:37:58
Speaker
Yeah, you you absolutely true. Yeah, yeah. i funny Funny enough, it was funny this weekend that my husband and I were talking about that with ours. I can't remember what the what the situation was now, but we could see between us that he's going and he needs to go. he needs to keep going up so that he can come back down. He can't, no matter what we said, could...
00:38:21
Speaker
solve the problem he was trying to solve that he couldn't and nothing we said was helping and or doing was helping and and so we just gave him space and we let him get to the top because we knew afterwards as you say it's he needs to reset he needs to hit it and then he can come back down again afterwards yeah but when you see it at the time you're thinking oh I need to stop him getting to this point I need to help but actually said there's not like some things we just can't come here. We can't solve everything. And we can't, if their nervous systems are that activated as you say, they need to get there and come back down afterwards. Don't they?
00:38:56
Speaker
So As a parent of a child then with a highly sensitive nervous system, how can I look after myself whilst I'm meeting my child's needs? Because, you know, I'm sure most of the parents that you work with at some point they're gonna say, I'm exhausted, how can I do it? And I, you know, I, there are days I feel I just like, that's it, I've just, you know, I have, all my spoons have gone today, i can't, you know, I can't give any more.
00:39:22
Speaker
How, how can I look after my own nervous system? It's really about lowering those demands, isn't it? And you're kind of recognising what genuinely needs to be done and what is a nice to have.
00:39:39
Speaker
Okay. And I think also for parents of children with PDA and and other neurodevelopmental differences or children who are going through difficult times, have experienced trauma, all of those things.
00:39:52
Speaker
um It's important to grieve actually as well. It's important for you to emotionally express and have a good cry and allow yourself to be held by a friend, by a therapist, by your partner, if you've got one, if you're lucky enough to have one, ah by the dog, you know, your cat, whatever.
00:40:14
Speaker
Like allow yourself that time to just really notice that it's It's hard. It's really, really hard.
00:40:27
Speaker
And not everybody is having to deal with what you're dealing with. And it's not fair. If you need to have a rage and write an angry letter and rip it up and throw it somewhere, do that. You know, I think we can lower only lower the demand so much. And I think the rest of it is being as emotionally aware of ourselves as possible and noticing what our needs might be in that moment. and And also knowing that meeting your need, even in a micro way, because often when you've got um a child with neurodevelopmental differences,
00:41:04
Speaker
it's you know, you're never meeting your own needs. You're constantly or you're very rarely able to meet your own needs or have that respite. And in the moment you're consistently having to put their needs ahead of yours.
00:41:15
Speaker
But even if in that moment there's I could put my hand on my heart. OK, having a difficult bedtime, maybe it's that you put, so you know, an air pod in one ear and you're listening to some soothing music.
00:41:28
Speaker
no you know, you take a cup of at tea upstairs to bedtime with you and it's kind of grounding and it's warm and yes, you're dealing with everything else or you look out the window even just for a second at the green and the trees swaying or whatever you've got in front of you that's kind of soothing.
00:41:44
Speaker
Don't underestimate those micro moments of supporting your own nervous system. They really add up and and actually consistently doing those micro things, I think is much more effective than having a lovely bubble bath at the end of the day or having, you know, somebody else come and look after your child once a month or once a week or whatever you you're able to do.
00:42:08
Speaker
Those micro moments, feeling your feet on the carpet, you know, if you've got, if you like sensory things, I always have this for if I'm doing calls with parents and often you know the calls I'm doing with parents are emotional and they can get emotionally heated especially when there are both parents there I'll have my fluffy strawberry often under the desk and I'll just soothe my fluffy strawberry
00:42:31
Speaker
But I ah don't underestimate how much something like that can really just help in that moment. Yeah, yeah. And i think I think you're right. It's those micro moments, isn't it? Because it's that very often we think, all right, you know, and I need some time out. I need some time for myself. And as parents, a PDA is we don't often get that.
00:42:50
Speaker
So we need to take those. I mean, um you know, I've sort of In the past, I've sort of in, you know, in in those moments where things are overwhelming, I might just go and lock myself in the toilet for a minute and just breathe, breathe, calm myself down, get my, you know, get my heart rate back down and then come out and smile as if everything's fine. and You know, mum's all right.
00:43:10
Speaker
But it is. It's those. Yeah, I hadn't thought but about it like that before. It's the micro moments actually. if You know, we talked earlier, didn't we, about and diffusing. and The meltdowns are good because it diffuses, it bring it regulates that nervous system back down. And we need those little micro moments ourselves to bring ours back. And we need the meltdowns too.
00:43:30
Speaker
ah Yes, this is true. Yes. People have a snot bubble cry every so often and life's not fair and this isn't fair and not everyone has to deal with this and it's too much for me. Of course.
Podcast Conclusion and Closing Remarks
00:43:40
Speaker
Yes, too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree.
00:43:43
Speaker
um to Jenny, did this we're coming to the end now of ah of the first part of our podcast, but oh it's been great. and you know, you've shared so much valuable insights, information, but also on the science behind it all as well, which has been brilliant. So thank you very, very much for that.
00:44:00
Speaker
and um you know This is just the first part of our and podcast with Jenny. and We do have Deeper Dive podcasts which are available on our training hub via subscription and we'll put the link and in the show notes below. So if you do want to catch the second half of our podcast with Jenny, then and please and have a look in our training hub.
00:44:20
Speaker
and The so subscribe subscribers of our hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone. So and for free. So thank you very much, and subscribers.
00:44:31
Speaker
and And in return, they get access to all the recordings and self-guided training on our hub. So as I said, I'll put the the notes, and at the link to the training hub in our show notes.
00:44:43
Speaker
So all that's left for me to say for this part of the podcast is thank you, Jenny. i hope you've enjoyed it. and I've really enjoyed and having you on today. and And thank you to all our listeners as well for and tuning into our PDA Society podcast.
00:44:59
Speaker
We hope you've enjoyed the episode and if you found it helpful, don't forget to subscribe and share. And for more support, resources and information, visit the PDA Society's website at pdasociety.org.uk.
00:45:13
Speaker
And we look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you very much. So if you want to hear more from today's special guest then there is a longer version of this podcast available over on our training hub.
00:45:25
Speaker
Sponsors of our training hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone for free. As a thank you they get free access to all recordings and self-guided training on our training hub.
00:45:37
Speaker
Thank you subscribers for your generosity. If you'd like to become a subscriber there's a link in our show notes.