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E16 - Fonteyn Moses - Te Kani, Poutiaki Director of Maori Strategy & Indigenous Inclusion at Westpac New Zealand
53 Plays16 days ago
In this episode, we learn from indigenous wisdom what it really means to build a financial system that honours people and planet.
Fonteyn Moses-Te Kani, Poutiaki Director of Maori Strategy and Indigenous Inclusion at Westpac New Zealand, brings a systems-thinking lens to the world of finance, drawing from her lived experience as an Indigenous woman and a change leader working across banking, government, and community in New Zealand.
We talk about carbon trading that protects native forests, the power of Indigenous-led investing, and why decision-making must start with trust and humility. Fonteyn’s perspective on sustainable finance is grounded in indigenous practices, while bringing to life concrete financial innovations that support collective stewardship for our planet and people. She reminds us that finance is not just about transactions, but about relationships, and that community-led solutions are often the most enduring.
This is an incredibly inspiring conversation about how we reimagine financial tools as pathways for collective healing and future-building, showing us that it can be done.
Please review the episode, share your feedback, and subscribe to the podcast!
You can also:
- Visit our website: womenchangingfinance.org
- Follow Fonteyn on LinkedIn
To go further, here are some of the references mentioned during the episode:
- Carol Sanford https://carolsanford.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Fontaine Moses Tekhani
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance, where you will discover amazing women from all around the world who are making finance become a force for good.
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance. I'm Krisztina Tora and I'm welcoming today Fonteyn Moses Te-Kani, who is Putiaki Director, Maori Strategy and Indigenous Inclusion at Westpac New Zealand, one of the largest banks in New Zealand.
00:00:37
Speaker
She's also an entrepreneur, sits on the board of the GSG's National Partner in New Zealand, and has served in various roles in the mission to protect and uphold the Maori values and culture.
00:00:48
Speaker
It is an absolute privilege to have her on the show today. Welcome, Fonteyn.
Current Trends in Maori Impact Ecosystem
00:00:54
Speaker
As a first question, I would like to ask you how you see the impact ecosystem in New Zealand, how it has evolved, what trends are you witnessing?
00:01:03
Speaker
So basically describe the landscape around you. And most importantly, how do you see the Maori fit within this ecosystem? What is it?
Maori's Treaty and Trading History
00:01:15
Speaker
yeahque Ko Fonte Moses, te kane ahoi, it is my privilege to be able to talk to you and cover this particular topic, which obviously is my lived experience and in currently living it. And I suppose in New Zealand, we unlike other countries, we as an Indigenous people have a treaty with this government. So we have a treaty and its agreement based on three articles around upholding our rights and being able to work with the government but also being independent. and And so that's like a brief and so just for other people who don't quite understand it.
00:01:50
Speaker
And I needed to give that background to really, for people to understand that our mission has always to be ah self-determining. So we have a saying which is,
00:02:02
Speaker
kei kai aku ringa, which is to the food is it as in my hands, which is the wealth that we create is within our ability to do that. And so for us, it's the economy is a trading economy and we're traders.
00:02:17
Speaker
So, you know, we started in the Pacific and when the Pacific could no longer sustain us, we moved, we actually jumped in our waka and then sailed over to Aotearoa. And so for us, it's always been about trade and how do we actually do that?
00:02:30
Speaker
And we've always also traded globally and we've traded flax and whatever we're being able to
Global Trade and Sustainable Practices
00:02:36
Speaker
do. I think in New Zealand, we're such a small country that I sometimes think we hit above our weight class in regards to how we we trade globally with people. And as an Indigenous people, we probably are seeing the same.
00:02:49
Speaker
But the stories that ah we tell, Indigenous people come to New Zealand to actually leverage off the of how we do it and and how does it work and how does this system, this finance system work for us? And and to be fair, it doesn't.
00:03:03
Speaker
Hence why I'm working in a bank. And to your point, you know, how do you change the language to change the perspective? Because the system is what it is.
00:03:14
Speaker
And I think for us, sustainability is who we are. So when you talk about esg their environment and social and governance, For us, the E is ao, or the world of of that we live in.
00:03:29
Speaker
Social is the people that we are, or te tangata. And governance is just the leadership, rangatira. And so how do those all combine is how we actually create a better system that enables us to be included within it because our goal isn't to own it.
Maori's Relationship-Based Trade Perspective
00:03:45
Speaker
And so even with The land that we walk on, it isn't to own the land, it's to protect the land. And so within that context, it becomes interesting to trade in the finance sector because it operates on joe the amount of things that you trade, the speed of the trade and the volume of the trade.
00:04:04
Speaker
Whereas for our people as Indigenous, it's the relationships that we create, the trust that we have. to enable us to have a partnership that allows for us to actually take into consideration the planet, the environment, the people, and so that we're all moving ahead together rather than actually just one running ahead and having this very large gap of disparity.
00:04:29
Speaker
Well, that's already quite an amazing piece of introduction. really like this description that for you, trade is more about the relationships, the trust, the that you have and that you build with the environment, with the people.
00:04:47
Speaker
Can you say a little bit more about the relationship or the, I guess, the philosophy around money in the Maori culture? ah think for us, we see money as a tool.
00:05:00
Speaker
And so we use it as a tool as we do every other tool. And so what we're seeing is our function is how do we as a collective enable ourselves to actually be able to have our own mana motoi or self-determining our future rather than actually an So in this system of money will dictate the way we go.
00:05:24
Speaker
we actually, our perception is that the money is just a tool to enable us to live the life we want to have by protecting planet people and actually enabling our leaders to lead us in the direction that actually looks and protects all of us.
Indigenous Community in Finance
00:05:42
Speaker
And all of us isn't just, I suppose, Indigenous. we We are not independent of the communities that we live in. And so because of that, we are in collaboration and with our communities working to see how does it work for us as a community? so this What does it mean and how do we advance?
00:06:02
Speaker
And finance is just a part of that. So for us, that's kind of... The key to ah the collective is you move. And I think of it as um might be the shortest, oldest, poorest, but in the collective, the strength of the collective is I don't need to be the richest, tallest, or youngest because as a collective, we actually you know compensate for all the things that are our weaknesses.
00:06:28
Speaker
In the finance system, everything I'm not is what I get judged on because then that is whether I can have access to finance or not. You're too old to give money to.
00:06:40
Speaker
You don't have enough, you know. and And to be fair, sometimes their parents is, yeah, don't like you. So I'm not sure I want to give you money. So whereas in collective, it doesn't matter.
00:06:51
Speaker
So I think that's the power of Indigenous, is the power of community, the power of collective. has actually come to a point where you can collaborate for quite a greater good. That's so beautiful.
00:07:04
Speaker
Thank you.
Indigenous as Investors Model
00:07:05
Speaker
And can you maybe give examples of types of organizations or types of financial instruments that you have redesigned or used to uphold and kind of, yeah, uphold these values and make them work for for you in a way that sustains this vision?
00:07:29
Speaker
So we've got a term or model which we call the public iwi private investment. And it's really to change the language to so so so that Indigenous people are seen as investors.
00:07:42
Speaker
Like we are investors in this land, we're investors in the system, we're investors in people. And so the public aspect is government. And because they've got the same mandate, to be honest, when you look at the social policies they have and everything else, it's just hard to get money out of them.
00:07:57
Speaker
So we're saying, look, you have your money and you have your desires and and actually they're the same as ours. and So how do we collaborate to be able to say, well, how do we achieve more by actually looking at the same goals, that intersectional kind of impact around what you design your policies?
00:08:17
Speaker
Well, we're looking at in regards to we have people, we have resource, we have access to land in New Zealand. 33% of land in indigenous title is underutilized or unproductive.
00:08:31
Speaker
But when you ask us as indigenous people, we don't agree. We're like, actually, we're happy for it to stay in an indigenous forest because now that we're transitioning to net zero, it's perfect.
00:08:41
Speaker
Because if you go and and change that and turn it into something else, Well, one, you take away our footprint and our heritage, but equally you turn it into something that's a transaction that will only last for a minute.
00:08:56
Speaker
So we'd rather actually keep it as an indigenous forest. And now we can allow that to be part of the transitioning to net zero. So it's kind of time and place, right? And so what we have found is that sustainability and sustainable finance actually has a lot more that enables us to trust the system, to enable us to look at our financial future.
00:09:20
Speaker
Because to create a sustainable financial future is the enablement of our people to retain our connection to the land, but also by sharing that with others and to say, how do we do that? So the yeah know we get the government and e we and indigenous and we look at that intersectionality.
00:09:39
Speaker
And then we bring in private investors to say, well, are your values aligned? And so it's a much easier conversation to have under sustainable finance than it is to actually just do the normal kind of financial kind of instruments that are there. And we're saying, look, it doesn't matter if you do social bonds, it still doesn't reach where sustainable finance does, which actually looks at the values that we all have as contributors to this greater outcome.
Carbon Trading and Maori Heritage
00:10:06
Speaker
So just to continue on this example that you brought about the forest, the indigenous forest that you're protecting or the 33% of land that is not being, I guess, in our language, which is not appropriate, but used for productive means.
00:10:25
Speaker
So what is exactly the financial transaction that is happening? Just for people to understand how... protection can be actually be profitable in financial terms, if I can put it in this way? 100%. So we do carbon trading. So we've got the emission trading scheme.
00:10:48
Speaker
And so that's been quite handy for Indigenous people. So we were one of the first in New Zealand, al my iwi, we were one of the first to do that transaction for our forestry. and our treaty settlements also included those. and And so carbon trading enabled us to actually ensure that trees were kept in the ground.
00:11:05
Speaker
And we used an indigenous kind of tree, which is manuka, but then we had these others. The interesting thing for carbon trading is that it provided an ability to trade on something which allowed us to continue to use the land.
00:11:22
Speaker
And so one of the things that we did with the carbon trading is that we had a whole lot of forestry that was returned to us. We had a ah very large oil company working in New Zealand that said, hey, we'd like to do a 10-year partnership with you in regards to the carbon trade and have certainty around the carbon and and being able to use it to offset you know what we're doing.
00:11:46
Speaker
And so we entered into that agreement because we said, well, actually, if we enter into that agreement, we now have a relationship with an entity that we can have a discussion around regards to the future of.
00:11:59
Speaker
But we have 10 years of certainty around an income that allows us to look at planting. Because the tricky thing about for us about having an indigenous forest, for example, we have a 100-year plan.
00:12:12
Speaker
But the 100-year plan is ah can it be, sometimes it's like a four-year forestry rotation, which is 25 years per rotation. But to get to our aspiration of having a full indigenous kind of plantation, we have to kind of take out the exotics that we have and replace it by 25% every year for years to get to hundred Because then it's self-funding.
00:12:37
Speaker
And for us, that's how long it takes. And then if we've got, and then utilising carbon trading means that we've got an income that can sustain the planting in the and actually then the replanting, changing of of that plantation to Indigenous.
00:12:53
Speaker
That's how long, that's the timeframe we're looking 100 years, because it's in a A space that allows us to change with the land and that is actually within that capability capacity that we have to actually manage that.
00:13:06
Speaker
I wish more people had that 100 years time frame in mind when they're doing
Challenges in Accessible Finance
00:13:12
Speaker
work. That's a great example. Thank you so much. And also what's really interesting is that you're working with an oil company.
00:13:19
Speaker
And so therefore you're also having ah discussion about what it means to do sustainability with an oil company, right? If you have any reflections on that, they're welcome. But my next question was around the social side, because i think if I understand correctly, New Zealand community finance is also very developed and there are interesting types of organizations that helping to do that?
00:13:45
Speaker
Perhaps if you can reflect also on the social side with some examples. The community finance is interesting. And and I've had the privilege to actually work with a gentleman called David Hall and David Woods.
00:13:59
Speaker
And we talk about it the microfinance and all these other different things that enable, especially like small, medium enterprises. Because in New Zealand, they make up 69%.
00:14:13
Speaker
of actually the businesses that we have. And when we have like natural disasters, it's these entities that actually hold the economy together, hold the community together.
00:14:26
Speaker
And so when we look at, I suppose, for community finance in New Zealand, they're looking at housing. And I'm sure that everyone does housing around the world, but not different to anyone else.
00:14:37
Speaker
But in New Zealand, what we have is that our Indigenous, for us as Indigenous people, we've got a ah couple of programs that we actually lean into, which is you know shared home ownership and and we use leasing.
00:14:49
Speaker
And what we've done is we've said, look, the we'll invest in our and our people. And then we'll get a bank. And so, you know, that's what I'm heavily involved in. and And we can provide the the products.
00:15:01
Speaker
The goal of the banks is just to provide access to finance to enable Indigenous people to be able to be able to fund their project. But when we and look at all the different things, we go, well, we can be we could use bonds, we could use social performance bonds.
00:15:18
Speaker
But sometimes the simplest path to execution is the greatest path impact. And sometimes I think we overcomplicate finance rather than making it more simple.
00:15:32
Speaker
And I think that's the language. So sometimes my people as Indigenous don't trust the finance sector because of all the acronyms. Like in sustainable finance, we have the do no significant harm, but we but use the DNS, and then our Indigenous people get lost and they're like, I've got no idea what you're talking about.
00:15:55
Speaker
oh, it's do no significant harm. You know, we're going to look after you because you're vulnerable. And then Indigenous people are going, it's funny, I don't feel vulnerable. I don't certainly look it, but thank you for telling me. Where would I be without you?
00:16:09
Speaker
So sometimes, you know what I mean, is that we, in our zeal to protect who we see as vulnerable, we overcomplicate the finance system rather than actually simplifying it and actually the the journey to actually get the impact, which is actually just a home.
00:16:31
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't agree more. And that's exactly the purpose of this podcast, right? Trying to make it way more approachable for many more people because it's not that complicated.
00:16:44
Speaker
We are making it more complicated than it should be. So that's a great segue perhaps to my next question, which is about your work.
00:16:54
Speaker
So first of all, would love for you to describe your role. So your title is Putiaki Director Maori Strategy and Indigenous Inclusion.
00:17:07
Speaker
So for us who are not familiar with your culture, what does Putiaki mean? And also, can you tell us about your role, how it works?
00:17:18
Speaker
What are the challenges that you are trying to solve in the bank that you work at? ah So haute aki is basically the, and so in our language, po is post and teaki is to look after.
00:17:33
Speaker
and so it's the role to look after. And so for for my people, I wanted to have in my role my language because that is my commitment to my people and those that I'm of service to.
00:17:48
Speaker
And so I felt that that needed to come first because that's who I am of service to. It's my people and and I don't take it for granted that the position I have of influence is to influence change for them.
00:18:00
Speaker
And so the director of Māori strategy and Indigenous inclusion was just so that everyone else could understand it really. And so in particular, my role is, I suppose it's a lot like what you're saying, it's how do you make finance accessible?
00:18:16
Speaker
How do you make the language simple? And how do you change the perception that people have around what media kind of says these are those people, right? and It's like, because we are indigenous and we live on the land, ah so you're poor.
00:18:33
Speaker
No, we choose a lifestyle that is line with protecting and being with the the earth in the and we know when it's out of sync. So we go, actually, we're not going to go out today. We're not going to plant. We're going to protect that space that's in the marine environment.
00:18:52
Speaker
Because now we can see that our mussels or our oysters or our seafood is not thriving like it is. So we choose not to go out and catch and collect shell food because we think we need to wait for a year to give it time to replenish.
00:19:08
Speaker
Now, who does that in business? know So our role is to look after and be a kaitiaki or a protector of, because it's how do you look after the whole of the collective?
00:19:20
Speaker
And so for some of that, you know I was brought up on a farm where you would rotate. you know You'd say, well, it takes five five years for for you to wait for the earth to actually be able to sustain you, then another five years for the grass, another five years.
00:19:35
Speaker
And so that's why 100 years seems like nothing to us because we know we break it down into lots. Whereas in business... One year is too long. Three years, well, your males will be dead.
00:19:46
Speaker
And five years, well, you're already disciplined off the planet. yeah so So it's just different. And I suppose for me, it's changing the language to enable to change the system.
00:19:57
Speaker
And so... There's this saying I love, which is, when we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change. And so my role is to actually help people to change their look at the relationship with Indigenous people, to consider that actually when we partner, we collaborate, and we think about putting the the planet first,
00:20:21
Speaker
then our outcomes will be different and we will actually have a future. Whereas if we only think about the transactions that are in front of us, our future is only the lifetime that we live.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. There is so much that we can learn from that. So concretely, work in a bank. What does a typical day look like? What are the tensions that you're working against?
00:20:47
Speaker
What are the, I guess, maybe products or ah services that you are helping create as a result of your
Financial Identity for Vulnerable Groups
00:20:56
Speaker
work? I think that what I got to and and when it was great, actually, because within the bank,
00:21:01
Speaker
The ability to influence change is hard, but it's not as hard as the whole system. For instance, we didn't realise that bank accounts for kids in care or for ex-prisoners was an issue because we all have bank accounts.
00:21:16
Speaker
And the only reason it came up is because we, um so Westpac is the government banker. And so one of our clients, which is ah the government banker or the that looks after, it's called the Ministry of Social Development, and look after all these people that need need care. and And what they said is, we can't get access to a bank account.
00:21:37
Speaker
And these kids in care said, we need your help because when you don't have a bank account, you no longer have a name and you don't exist. So for them, for these kids, they said, know, kō au tēnei, know me, I have a name. i am a person.
00:21:54
Speaker
i am not this number, like the number that you give me for the ah benefit that you're going to have or the amount of families I go to or the amount of kind of bags that I carry. I'm a person and I want to be recognised in this society.
00:22:12
Speaker
And we took it for granted that a bank account is that. And said, well, this is our passport to the world. It gives me a name. It helps me to show that I have an identity and a bank account shows that I belong to this society and I have a future.
00:22:28
Speaker
And so, you know, i sometimes I think, what is the biggest thing that I could do And I just didn't realize that one of the core things that we provide, which is a bank account, is core the human rights.
00:22:41
Speaker
of everyone that actually is here and just how fundamental that is. So what I, in my day, is not typical actually, but some of it is, what is ah system failure they were' looking to so thought to change and what is a banking failure that we're looking we're looking at and how do we actually take responsibility and create that change?
00:23:08
Speaker
Great example as well. Thank you. There's so many different directions that that this can go, but I guess, do you have any reflections recommendations or what we in different countries could learn from this approach?
00:23:25
Speaker
I unfortunately, I haven't seen too many banks with this kind of roles inside of the bank. You know, some banks are doing better than others, of course, in taking responsibility and having a more direction towards social inclusion and But it's it's not necessarily the case for everywhere.
00:23:47
Speaker
If you can have a think about what would it take to do it well from scratch? Yeah, the thing I ah suppose i So I'm part of the independent technical advisory group working on the taxonomy for sustainable finance in New Zealand.
00:24:03
Speaker
And if there is ever a fast lesson in having a doctorate in acronyms, I have to say this is one of them. And I call it the GOAT. the glossary of abbreviations table that needs to be created to be able to get through it.
00:24:18
Speaker
And the thing I've learned is that I don't think it matters the country that you're in. How do you create the human or keep the human in the system to enable the system to humanize what we do in relationships.
00:24:37
Speaker
like For example, i mean if you if you engage with a bank or anyone in finance and you treat them like a calculator, i just I don't understand why we are surprised you get a calculated response rather than actually how do we engage in the hearts of people to be able to, and I call it the ships, you know, you have a relationship, you go into a partnership, and then you use those ships to navigate this intrepid, complex world together, the world of finance, and you do it together, and you go, oh, look, watch out for that, and maybe think about this.
00:25:11
Speaker
And then in the world of indigenous, is that, you know, oh, well, you know, this is why we do the replanting, this is the regenerative part that we do. Because when the storm hits, what you're looking for is a friendship.
00:25:23
Speaker
It's the most enduring ship. And when you go from those people to us to, you know, Krisztina and I were having a chat and you wanted to do this and i ah we can have honest conversation about what you need.
Fontaine's Background and Career Influences
00:25:37
Speaker
And also i can say, this is what I can and can't do. That's kind of where we need to get to. And and I suppose my faith and hope is that through sustainable finance and being a values principle kind of as framework,
00:25:53
Speaker
that enables us to, as humans, create these ships, these enduring friendships that actually can navigate our way through these intrepid journeys that we take. Well, I'm going to take this one, if I can.
00:26:06
Speaker
The ships to navigate. I absolutely love this. Thank you so much. It's a gift. Thank you. I mean, probably we could go on and on on this topic, but I would love...
00:26:20
Speaker
to hear also about you. What is the journey that you took? How did did you get here? What were steps and the stories that brought you to this place today?
00:26:34
Speaker
i think if anyone was to reflect on my career, they would probably think I was an acid because there is no actual pathway which says, I went to here and then I studied this and they got me to there.
00:26:46
Speaker
I'm guided by the stars. And I ah think For me, my father, ara I was brought up with my grandparents and my mother, my grandmother was a healer.
00:26:56
Speaker
My grandfather worked in the garden. And so for me, it was how do we, as people, ensure that healing looks after people and a gardener looks after the earth.
00:27:08
Speaker
And so that's been my journey is that actually within us, we have the ability to heal not only each other, but the earth that we walk.
00:27:19
Speaker
And what does that look like? And then my dad was, that we delivered my dad on a farm and my mother was about social justice. And they showed me the practical steps of how that works. And so my dad got me to do economics and computers. So I'm a programmer by a trade.
00:27:35
Speaker
which is funny. So he he said to me, farming will be disrupted by technology. And he said, and me being in an office doing my books by hand will be a thing of the past.
00:27:47
Speaker
And technology will shape farming in a way that is not currently being seen today. And his His goal was for me to embrace that so that actually as an Indigenous people, we were not left behind, but that we embrace technology and that which was in front of us as a tool to be not worshipped, but used for the advancement of us as people. And I suppose that's kind of it. so And what he said is that his belief was, well, he wanted me to learn Japanese because that was the trading
00:28:22
Speaker
language for us at that time for fish in all primary sector. And so fishing, farming, forestry were our primary areas that we actually kind of lived in, which would make sense, right, because it's everything to do with the with the whenua or the land.
00:28:41
Speaker
And so his view was to Japanese. Well, I failed by the way, so don't know Japanese. Instead, i went into economics and the language of programming. And so he was okay with it.
00:28:51
Speaker
And because of that, he also said, now, I want you to look at finance. Because as a people, so to heal is to be able to make whole. And for us, we can do everything else, but to have access to finance so that we can determine the future that we have is how we create a sustainable financial future.
00:29:14
Speaker
And so that's kind of how I landed here, to be honest. Everything was a journey to enable us, to enable me to influence the system to provide access to financial services.
00:29:29
Speaker
That's amazing. And if i have read your bio correctly, you have also been in government. So you're really like a system thinker. You're really trying to find the right place in where you can have the most impact.
00:29:44
Speaker
So can you tell us about this experience in government as well or any other experiences that you had where you know really tried to do exactly that, this system change approach?
Community-Led Initiatives Success
00:29:57
Speaker
So in government, a funny story, they told me there wasn't very good public servant. I know that would surprise you. But because i was trying to create change and they said, Fonte, you don't know, you don't quite understand how this works.
00:30:12
Speaker
We look to to manage up, not out. So when the people say we move here, we do this and I said, but I said, but that doesn't that's not how it works. I said, you know, we're creating change for the communities that we live in and for the people that we care for in our of service too.
00:30:30
Speaker
Surely that's what public servant means. So I got a really quick lesson in public service, which was quite interesting. So I didn't last too long. But the reason I went into government, and you're right, Krisztina is because my view is you can't change a system that you don't understand.
00:30:48
Speaker
And so whilst you might advocate on the outside to say you must change, the sometimes when you are in the system, you get a better understanding of the levers that need to change.
00:31:00
Speaker
And, you know, we sometimes... blame the system, we go, oh, the system's to blame because it's not changing fast enough. But actually, it's the people that have the influence to change the system that are actually not changing the perspective that they have.
00:31:18
Speaker
And so how do we change the language to change the perspective to enable us to better understand? those things that should be changed. Absolutely. Completely like signing on this objective.
00:31:32
Speaker
And these conversations are also an opportunity to reflect on achievements. So I would love to ask you if there are any achievements that you are really proud of, maybe also any achievements specific goals or ambitions that you have for the future?
00:31:50
Speaker
Well, that's rather large, isn't it? I think in New Zealand, we have this, well, my people, we have this saying that the kumina doesn't say how sweet it is. And so I suppose for me, I think my greatest gift Well, and my mindset is being that of the collective.
00:32:09
Speaker
And I suppose when I think about the collective, the influence I have is based on the voices of the many. And so you kind of go, what is my greatest achievements? And to be fair, I look and think we've got people in housing, we've got which have been led by Māori saying, this is how we want this to happen.
00:32:30
Speaker
When actually, when it's government-led, we don't see... What I found is that when it's government-led, it's for the policy outcome rather than for the community good.
00:32:43
Speaker
And so even if we're passionate about community good, it's actually community that knows how to actually, what that means and how that looks. And so when we allow community to lead that community regenerative kind of program, and we understand that we are but community,
00:33:01
Speaker
enablers, then we see the greatest outcome. And I think that for me is seeing all these different programs that have been part of all these ventures where it's been community led and just seeing how they've thrived.
00:33:14
Speaker
And for me, yeah yeah one of them was entity called Te Putahitanga, which was a whānau or a commissioning body which helped social enterprise to thrive in New Zealand. And they had 11 years and these people went from being reliant on the government or someone to go, i don't understand how to do this.
00:33:34
Speaker
to actually 10 years later saying, oh, we've done this and we've created this and now we've got a sustainable business and we've got a whole town and our community and we've got homes. and And you see this whole community that pretty much got written off by everyone now thriving and trading amongst each other and talking about how can we do this? and And I think the the thing, and and I think primarily around financial education,
00:34:04
Speaker
is that we like, in banks, we like to say, this is what a budget is. This is how you need to think about it when you're saving for your second home. Whereas in some of the families that we have, they're like, man, I can't even save for my first home. They're like, a second home, a batch and a boat.
00:34:21
Speaker
So how do you help me to get a boat so that I can go and get the fish for my family that then we get the income to be able to buy the home and live on the land of choice?
00:34:32
Speaker
Very different, but actually still the same outcome. You're still going to get a boat, you're still going to get a car, you're still going to get a home, but it's in a different way of thinking ah around this is what we use to be able to get an income for a lifestyle that creates a sustainable lifestyle for us rather than actually the other way, which is a transaction to do this. So I think for me, the greatest joy that I have is being able to participate and be part of the change in the system that allows it to be more diverse and inclusive.
00:35:07
Speaker
Thank you for that. So in this specific example, you mentioned how important it is for these kinds of initiatives to be community driven.
00:35:20
Speaker
so we talked little bit about the beginning of of this conversation about the E, the environment, the S, the social. Can you say just a bit more on this aspect of governance?
00:35:34
Speaker
and how you see it work and what are maybe are there any specific recommendations that you feel other organizations could benefit from to be really inclusive in the way that they are being governed or that they include this community voice and community aspect in their decisions?
00:35:59
Speaker
I think my greatest advice is don't be scared of the conversation. you know like we I see that people have this cultural fear, and especially those that care deeply about communities, because they don't want to get it wrong.
00:36:10
Speaker
But by not engaging, we already have, because you've got to engage to have the conversation. And that actually is a platform of humility. And through humility, we can grow trust. And through trust, we can actually have this relationship that can go to a partnership.
00:36:26
Speaker
and that hopefully leads to a friendship. But the particular point of community-led, well, if you don't have a conversation with the community and you do it to them, not with them, then the community will only last for as long as you're there and then it will stop.
00:36:42
Speaker
So how do we create that independence where the community is the pilot and we're okay to be the passenger, we're okay to be an enabler to that.
00:36:53
Speaker
And I think that's the part. We get fearful that the conversation might take too long. We get fearful that we might upset someone or we might offend, but actually we just got to start.
00:37:04
Speaker
Thank you. Well, I have a question that I ask every of my guests. So I'd love your reflections as well.
Intersectionality in Indigenous Finance
00:37:13
Speaker
How do you feel as a woman doing this job?
00:37:16
Speaker
Well, think the intersectionality of finance is that it's not just being a woman. It's actually, you know, we talk about women of color. talk about women of the expertise that they have.
00:37:28
Speaker
where you've got to do more than the others. And it's also like being Indigenous kind of cuts that even finer. So if you I think about it like if you're on a highway, you know you have the all these roads, and you have one that has men and women, and then you have another one that cuts in between, and then there's women of colour.
00:37:47
Speaker
And then there's this other one that cuts, and it then cuts you into Indigenous. And then even Indigenous people, you have indigenous males that get chosen over you. And then you then get pigeonholed into this woman of colour who's indigenous, who actually cares for people. So then you get dismissed as not being financially able to hold the conversation to understand what needs to happen.
00:38:12
Speaker
So I'm just saying it's lonely. Just that. But ah suppose for me, because I believe that my position of influence is due to the people that I care for.
00:38:25
Speaker
And it's for a purpose to be able to look after those. and And I suppose I look at it, the quietest person with the greatest need in the biggest room.
00:38:36
Speaker
And how do we look after them? you know And if I'm in the room and I'm at the table, well, it's nothing for me to just shimmy over and allow someone else and allow that voice to come.
00:38:48
Speaker
It's not to crowd it. but to accept that actually, how do we get more people at the table and create this movement of inclusion for women, for indigenous, for, you know, all these different parts? Because when we have that diversity at the table, we'll get greater outcomes because we'll better understand what is in the system that's actually holding us all back from being the greatest that we can be and the most that we can are able to give.
00:39:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for this. It's fantastic to hear. And yeah, even maybe it's not a table that we need. We need another form, right?
00:39:33
Speaker
To be most inclusive. Yes. Well, I always say you take out the door, replace the walls and just make it an open room and then it becomes a party. Yes, absolutely.
00:39:44
Speaker
So we're so slowly getting to towards the end of this conversation. I have one more question that I also would love to hear from you.
Friendships and Overcoming Loneliness
00:39:55
Speaker
You just said it's a lonely job to do. So therefore it's I'm assuming that it might come with some challenges. What helps you be your best self, overcome those challenges?
00:40:09
Speaker
Friendships. Friendships. I think I was just kind of saying that sometimes we we can't trust our eyes and that we should use our hearts and that for me, and inclusion, diversity is where we use our eyes and we think that things should be, or we count the amount of people in and we we don't trust this person or that person. And And sometimes we we kind of use, we talk about white male men and this and that and all the rest of it. And yet some of my greatest supporters have been those very people that we're told that are wrong. and
00:40:43
Speaker
And so I don't kind of believe that because, you know, think about David Wood's And I wouldn't be talking to you if it wasn't for him. And so some of my greatest supporters have been men in influential positions who have just kind of reached out and said, I'm happy to help.
00:40:59
Speaker
And I think the loneliness is sometimes because we use our eyes and not our heart and accept the help of those around us. And I think that's been my lesson is my greatest joy has been the friendships that have been created when I actually open my heart to what is different to enable us to have impact.
00:41:22
Speaker
Thank you so much for this. And final quick question. and What is inspiring you?
Sustainable Finance Taxonomy
00:41:28
Speaker
The work I'm doing and the taxonomy for creating for sustainable finance for this country.
00:41:35
Speaker
Okay. I know, I know. That's an unexpected answer, actually. It's very interesting. Can you say more? Because I think most people don't understand what is a sustainable finance taxonomy. So can you explain maybe just shortly what it is and why it has so much potential?
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, for New Zealand, honestly, this was that doctorate that I gained through doing taxonomy but and abbreviations and just a lesson. And so how I look at it and how a friend helped me to think about it is that it's the foundations and the categories that enable us to be able to think about sustainable finance and the categories that are there that enable decisions to be made to get to that point of when we see capital flowing, which is green or sustainable.
00:42:26
Speaker
blah. You know all the blah. For me, so ahuri means the flow of. And so what i've but we've seen in the the creation of this categories or this taxonomy or framework is the inclusion of Indigenous values.
00:42:43
Speaker
And that interoperable means that actually For Indigenous people, the way of how we think about the planet and people and and how we think about the governance and the interaction between government and people and place, this is an opportunity of change because it's this It's that thing of, well, if you want the money, then you have to do the work and you have to do it this way.
00:43:09
Speaker
And it's kind of like, and what does that mean? It's like, well, you've got to think of the people that you're actually engaging with in this place and the land that you're actually connecting with for the future of others.
00:43:21
Speaker
So I know it's a geeky thing. Sorry about that. But it's inspiring me because i see it that for me, the ability to have your values as part of the foundation of this new flow of capital that supports us to think about the regenerative responsibility that we have indigenous people, but it's shared.
00:43:46
Speaker
It's no longer just us. It's a shared responsibility. And it's the creation of relationships and partnerships that enable this greater purpose that we have. Yeah, I think as a compliment, if I understand correctly what a taxonomy is, it's a way for government to influence and prioritize certain areas of investments over others.
00:44:09
Speaker
And in this case, specifically prioritize sustainability and and within that, some specific categories ah of investments, that's right. That's your podcast, I'd say yes.
00:44:23
Speaker
No, but is that also your understanding? Yes. Yes, it is. And I suppose i I kind of put it down because I was probably thinking about this, but the things that are inspiring me around it was the inclusion of values.
00:44:40
Speaker
And the categories was the fact that whether you're talking about government or you're talking about private or you're talking about academics and community, the value aspect of Indigenous people are every letter level, which means that when you do no significant harm, it's kind of not a, you must not do this. It's, well, then how do you not do this?
00:45:04
Speaker
And what does it look like? And I'm sorry, I'm being a geek. kid But, you know, just it inspires me. Yes, it's exciting. Yes. And who is inspiring you?
Inspiration and Systems Thinking
00:45:15
Speaker
Oh, that's a very good. I must admit that I'm inspired by my daughter who's 19. And because it gives me hope that I have this young person in my life that cares about others, that has this global conscience and actually guides me to think, actually, if my being and the decisions I make today are for the future of her, then how do I actually include her in everything I do?
00:45:48
Speaker
And are you reading anything that you would recommend to the audience? Oh, that's a good question. little bit geeky, to be fair. But at the moment, I suppose there's a couple.
00:46:00
Speaker
Would they be? It just depends, I suppose, if your audience is into, suppose, one of the things that I'm looking, and it's probably not one book, it's a series, and it's with my wife, and it's about healing.
00:46:14
Speaker
And actually, it's about us as people. How do we think about how we heal ourselves And how then how we think about how what does it mean for others?
00:46:26
Speaker
And so there's a series and and there's this one man who's an Aboriginal leader and he's like really funny as well. But it's a series because I think each one of them in a Buddhist priest come to this point where as a collective, how do we collectively think about the lives that we interact with, the things that we do and the changes that we can make through the decisions we make?
00:46:53
Speaker
That's also about taking care of oneself. I think for me, the it's the hardest thing because what I find is I'm okay to look after my kids.
00:47:05
Speaker
I find it harder to look after myself. One of the people that i always kind of go back to, and that's where I've got the quote for around the changing the way we look at things, is Carol Sanford and her regenerative view and authenticity at work. And I think she's a couple of books that she has, but she was one of the greatest influences for me in regards to systems thinking.
00:47:31
Speaker
And, you know, the work that needs to be done. And I can't remember her book, but it's the podcast. I listen to was her podcast, actually. I find those a lot more better. And so, yes, Carol Sanford. Perfect.
00:47:46
Speaker
This is fantastic. Thank you so much. Do you have any final advice or thoughts? for fellow changemakers or any specific ask from listeners?
00:47:59
Speaker
I suppose for me, one of the greatest reasons, like I thank you so much for the privilege of being able to come on and and have a ah chat with you around just These things which I think are ah important, and I think it's we get insular in regards to where we live.
00:48:19
Speaker
And for me, the quietest voice with the greatest need, how do we look after Indigenous people? We were talking about the free, prior-informed consent. But how do we create the relationships so we don't need the government to dictate a term, but that actually look for best practice?
00:48:38
Speaker
which is humans. And so for me, be it in a bank or be it in government, how do we create the relationships that can lead us to friendships that ultimately change the way that we interact with each other and build communities of heart?
00:48:55
Speaker
Communities of Heart is a perfect way to end this wonderful conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much, Fonteyn, for this amazing conversation.
00:49:06
Speaker
it was really so inspiring, a fantastic way for me to start the day with you. So yeah, I'm very grateful. And yeah, thank you. And hope that I can have the privilege of meeting you one day in person somewhere.
00:49:23
Speaker
perhaps in New Zealand. But in any case, thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I appreciate this. It's been such a privilege and I appreciate your time. Thank you.
00:49:38
Speaker
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00:49:49
Speaker
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00:50:01
Speaker
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