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E04 - Bonnie Chiu, Managing Director of The Social Investment Consultancy (TSIC)
66 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Women Changing Finance, host Krisztina Tora sits down with Bonnie Chiu, an award-winning social entrepreneur, and a gender equality advocate. She is also the Managing Director of The Social Investment Consultancy (TSIC), a global network of consultants specialised in impact assessment and impact investing strategies. Bonnie shares her journey from Hong Kong to the UK, starting with the foundation of the social enterprise Lensational, which empowers marginalized women through photography and storytelling. She discusses the vibrant ecosystems of social entrepreneurship she has encountered in the UK and the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in finance. As a co-founder of a new impact investment wholesaler focused on racial equity, Bonnie highlights the need for systemic change and collaboration across sectors. Join us to discover how Bonnie is championing voices from diverse backgrounds and paving the way for a more equitable future.
Please review the episode, share your feedback and subscribe to the podcast!
You can also:
- Visit our website: womenchangingfinance.org
- Follow Bonnie on LinkedIn
- Read Bonnie’s full bio
To go further here are some of the references mentioned during the episode:
- Lensational https://lensational.org/
- B Corp https://www.bcorporation.net/en-us/
- TSIC https://www.tsiconsultancy.com/
- Diversity Forum for Inclusive Society https://www.diversityforum.org.uk/
- Better Society Capital (prev. Big Society Capital) https://bettersocietycapital.com/
- Access Foundation https://theaccessgroupfoundation.com/
- Impact Wholesalers https://www.gsgimpact.org/resources/gsg-impact-publications-and-reports/impact-investment-wholesalers-and-fund-of-funds-design-insights-from-the-gsg-impact-partnership/
- The National Lottery Community Fund (prev. Big Lottery Fund) https://www.tnlcommunityfund.org.uk/
- Pathway Fund https://www.pathwayfund.org.uk/
- Racial Equity Scorecard https://racialequityscorecard.uk/
- Women in Social Finance https://womeninsocialfinance.org/
- WEDU https://www.weduglobal.org/
- GSG Impact https://www.gsgimpact.org/
- Christina Rossetti https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/christina-rossetti
- Equality Impact Investing Project https://equalityimpactinvesting.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance, where you will discover amazing women from all around the world who are making finance become a force for good.
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Women Changing Finance. I'm Krisztina Tora, and I'm welcoming today, Bonnie Chiu, an award-winning social entrepreneur, a gender equality advocate, and a leading social impact and impact investing consultant. She's also the managing director of the Social Investment Consultancy, a global network of consultants, specialized in impact assessments and impact investing strategies.
00:00:45
Speaker
I met Bonny almost 10 years ago when she was launching her social enterprise called Lensational. Since then, it's been incredibly inspiring to follow Bonnie's work going from strengths to strengths in all her endeavors. I'm therefore really happy to have Bonnie on the show today so that she can share with us her insights from the various hats she wears.
00:01:06
Speaker
Bonnie, welcome so much to the show. Before we go into your journey and your work, I'd love to hear what your views are about the different ecosystems that you've been interacting in and working
Experiences and Challenges in Social Enterprise
00:01:19
Speaker
in. So you were born in Hong Kong, you then moved to the UK, and now you're working globally. Do you have any insights about trends in each of those ecosystems?
00:01:29
Speaker
Thanks so much, Krisztina, to invite me to this podcast. I've also equally been admiring your journey. and In fact, you are one of the first few people I met in the UK who I got career advice from to build a career in the social impact space. so yeah This feels very special as our one decade of friendship.
00:01:51
Speaker
and So I was born and raised in Hong Kong and I actually think the Hong Kong ecosystem on social impact is quite vibrant within universities and schools. So I actually started out when I was 16. I started an enterprise as part of a program to train students to get into social entrepreneurship. That was a program by Junior Achievement Hong Kong, which is a global nonprofit that ah works also across a lot of schools in Hong Kong. And what was very special about that program was you were, you know, just to come up with an idea to start an enterprise, but they actually had an award for companies
00:02:33
Speaker
that are doing well on corporate social responsibility. So that was my first exposure to this idea of impact, you know that you can do good and do well. You can indeed create societal change through the products as an entrepreneur. So that was my first experience. And then when I went to university in Hong Kong, there were also a lot of different programs on social enterprise. There were courses focused on this idea of social enterprise.
00:03:00
Speaker
and I was part of a team to put forward an idea for the Hong Kong Social Enterprise competition, which still continues to run. and It was through those exposure that I got a sense of, oh, there is a community of social enterprises out there. and Actually, the universities, I went to the Chinese University of Hong Kong, and they also had links with universities and organizations across the region. so It was through that you know you know the Hong Kong Social Enterprise,
00:03:30
Speaker
program that I got to, I think, also compete with my idea, Lensational, also got to compete in Korea for a social venture competition. So that's kind of my early exposure to through schools and education to social enterprise. And I think that's very valuable because you need to catch people when they're young.
00:03:53
Speaker
Before they get potentially corrupted by ideas of business and finance, I feel very lucky that my first exposure to business and finance was one that integrates social and environmental impact with profits. So that was therefore my theme as I continue to graduate and kind of get into the world of working.
00:04:16
Speaker
That's brilliant. And that's a really nice way actually to kind of bridge. I love this thought that it's great to be exposed first to social business before being exposed to other kinds of businesses. Yeah. So yeah, I felt very lucky to be exposed to social enterprises at such a young age.
00:04:36
Speaker
However, as I continue to build my social enterprise, Lensational was an idea to train marginalized women and girls through photography and storytelling, and we provide platforms to sell and showcase their work so that it's also an economic empowerment opportunity for the women. But then I realized that as I kind of was about to bring, I was still studying, you know almost graduating,
00:05:02
Speaker
and wanted to work on my social enterprise full-time, there actually wasn't the enabling ecosystem. so There was still the expectation that maybe I should have gone to work in a bank for like four or five years and then come back to this space.
00:05:19
Speaker
But that just didn't feel right because I already felt so passionate about social enterprise.
Move to the UK and Ecosystem Support
00:05:25
Speaker
I saw the immense opportunity of impact investing. So why do I need to kind of go the traditional way and come back? So that was the reason why I hit a block. And there's also cultural norms, particularly for women. You know, there's pressure to perhaps not be an entrepreneur, not be so strong so that you can be more appealing in the marital market, but also as a young person, you know, you should gain your experience in the hierarchy before you then go out to chart your own path. So it's also both the ecosystem, but also cultural and gender norms that propel me to go somewhere else. But why the UK?
00:06:05
Speaker
It was actually during building Lensational in Hong Kong that ah we got in touch with British Council because they were promoting kind of this idea of social enterprises that have grown quite well in the UK. They were organizing social enterprise platforms like for social enterprises to meet potential funders. so It was through these exposure that I thought, oh maybe the UK is a good place.
00:06:31
Speaker
to kind of explore what the next step could be for my social enterprise. So I came to UK to do a master degree at the LSE, at the London School of Economics. Again, I think similar to Hong Kong, there was also a very vibrant ecosystem for supporting social entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs of all kinds within universities. But what was even more special was that they actually expect the students to go and then become a full-time entrepreneurs afterwards so the support is not just to get them to get a better job in a bank but actually to propel their business forward and as a migrant to the uk i felt so fortunate that i there was actually a visa co-graduate entrepreneur visa which sadly is no longer in place
00:07:18
Speaker
but it kind of allowed me to stay and build my enterprise here. and and so yeah i mean The rest is history. i mean I've been in the UK for 10 years now, naturalized also as a citizen. I can talk like more in-depth about the ecosystem, but I i think the UK, especially London, has a very vibrant ecosystem where you have policymakers, you have ah social entrepreneurs, investors,
00:07:43
Speaker
artists, you know, people just from all walks of life who are tackling impact from very different lens and also the cultural diversity to really make us do the most innovative work around impact here, both for the UK but also as a springboard to work globally.
00:08:01
Speaker
That's really amazing. And well, you said you don't want to dive deep or too deep into the UK ecosystem, but I still want to maybe ask you a few views or or what you have seen because you have been there for the past 10 years and the UK has most of the time been provided as an example of best in class country for social impact and social innovation and impact investment.
00:08:26
Speaker
So it would be really fascinating to hear maybe a few thoughts from what you have seen, what you have witnessed in that time. Yeah, so, oh, 10 years seems like such a long time. When I first came to the UK, I think I was very impressed by just the number of social enterprises in the country. I actually don't know the latest figure, but it's a lot. And I would think it's around maybe even 5% of all businesses that would be social enterprises. So, you know, when I came to the UK, I yeah was wanting to start my business here. I got the graduate entrepreneur visa, which also allowed me to work. I want to supplement my income. So I joined the social investment consultancy and I actually felt
00:09:16
Speaker
I could have more impact working across many projects and at the ecosystem level. So I changed the focus from my own social enterprise to the consultancy. So the consultancy in 2016 was one of the 62 founding B Corps in the UK. Now eight years on, there are 2,000 B Corps in the UK.
00:09:38
Speaker
so You can see kind of from the enterprise side, both like social enterprises, however they incorporate a non-profit for profit to maybe more traditional businesses now becoming B Corps. There's just a lot of organizations that are really prioritizing social and environmental impact, which I think makes the ecosystem very vibrant because it's also across many sectors.
00:10:03
Speaker
But you can't just look at the enterprise and not then think through well what the enterprises are going to raise finance from. And indeed, that was my struggle building my social enterprise that I just hit so many walls when I tried to raise the next round of funding.
Promoting Diversity and Inclusion
00:10:20
Speaker
And it's always on the treadmill to try to kind of break the cycle of getting funding that are ah not also normally restricted.
00:10:30
Speaker
So I think the UK has done a really good job in trying to build that supply of capital for social enterprises and for social impact outcomes projects through the creation of exciting capital using kind of a legislation to unlock money from dominant assets which, of course, you in your role at GSG, you talk a lot about as well. And that's an innovative policy mechanism to try to get more money flow into this system of social finance. At that time, around that time, when the dominant assets and the creation of big-site capital, actually, my organization, the Social Investment Consultancy, did a piece of research looking at
00:11:21
Speaker
other source of capital that can be tapped to supplement government funding. That was very inspiring for me because that research looked at, let's look at pension funds or charities, that you know operating charities as well as charitable foundations that have a lot of money sitting in the bank. I mean, what are they doing to invest that money that is in conjunction or contributing to their charitable mission?
00:11:48
Speaker
We also looked at faith-based organizations and like a lot of different types of asset owners. So that was quite inspiring for me to see, oh, yes, there's this idea of unlocking capital that you can have government as like perhaps in this in the case of the UK, taking certain risks.
00:12:07
Speaker
But the idea is that you can unlock capital from other sources and to bring people into this space so that we're growing the pie and we're growing the supply of capital that are going to these like fantastic organizations. So I've been quite lucky to be part of, I guess, the starting. you know I moved to the UK in 2013, started working in 2014. I feel I was lucky to be at the early stage of seeing the really dramatic growth of the impact investment model. But then one challenge of the impact investment market as anywhere as it grows is that you might be so focused on growth and scale and you forget like the quality or the depth of impact. And one area that I have worked a lot to promote is the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion. And it was partly within my role as a consultant.
00:13:01
Speaker
looking at the demand side like the enterprises that I got to talk to or even reflecting on my own experience, then experiences and just how they look as well you know are so different from the capital owners and allocators. and There's like a mismatch because I think, well, if the capital owners are only coming from traditional privilege, how can they allocate capital in a way that's reflective of what the most marginalized actually need. So I started raising this topic of diversity, equity, inclusion. Luckily, it did resonate with people in the UK. So in 2017, I also initiated a project
00:13:47
Speaker
called Diversity Forum for Inclusive Social Investment to get social investors impact investors to think about diversifying makeup of their own organization so that they can be more proximate and more representative of the issues that they are trying to solve.
00:14:04
Speaker
and I think since then, there's more intentional focus, not just on growing the pie, but also making sure that the pie is reaching the right people. So the creation of access foundation also through dominant assets, that has been very valuable for the ecosystem to make sure that actually there's more fit for purpose capital because we are actually working within the space of market failures. you know If it's so easy then,
00:14:33
Speaker
capitalism would have solved this, right? We wouldn't need all these projects or mechanisms to try to mediate between supply and demand, etc. So I think access creation in 2016 has been very valuable for the ecosystem. And over the past few years, I've been fortunate also to be part of the Blender Finance Investment Committee to kind of see how can we deploy grant funding the most precious source of any capital, like grant funding, to address some of these market-level challenges. And I think you know with big size capital and access, and you know that's where our paths are really crossing now, these are kind of impact investment wholesalers that are really working to build the market.
00:15:18
Speaker
And over the past three years, as I was sitting on the Blend ed Finance Investment Committee of Access, I've been also building a new impact investment wholesaler in the UK, precisely to address the point I raised earlier, the lack of diversity, equity and inclusion, but particularly racial equity, the amount of finance that's channeling to Black and global majority-led enterprises in the UK. so That's been a really great journey. like We launched officially two years ago. I'm one of the three co-founders and now really at the co-phase of starting and a wholesaler from scratch.
00:15:58
Speaker
So yeah, that's been kind of a bit of my evolution, but also to share, like I think the UK ecosystem on the impact investment side has been particularly quite mature, but I think there's still a lot of innovations, particularly now I'm working more in emerging markets, that I think the dynamism in some of the emerging markets and their ecosystems is also what a country like the UK could also learn from.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yes, we'll probably go back to this, you know how how when we are based in developed markets, learn from emerging markets. But just before we go there, you mentioned something that I wanted to ask you about anyways, is this new wholesaler to address racial inequity and therefore make things more equitable for people from different backgrounds and minor ity communities, if I can say that.
00:16:49
Speaker
so For people who don't understand what the wholesaler is, can you explain a concept of the wholesaler and how this will work, technically, concretely? how How will it work? Well, I think, Krisztina, you're better at explaining what the wholesaler is, but I can try and you can correct me if I made any mistakes.
00:17:11
Speaker
I think the concept of wholesaler is really rooted in the recognition that we need to build the market for impact investments. So
Initiatives for Racial Equity
00:17:21
Speaker
a wholesaler, by definition, is an organization that invests in impact investment intermediaries, sometimes directly in projects.
00:17:30
Speaker
but really with the aim to build a market so that you can crowd in and leverage more capital to come to the table of addressing social and environmental challenges. and So big society capital invests through fund managers. Access also, they provide grant funding to intermediaries so that there's more fit for purpose capital going to underlying enterprises.
00:17:57
Speaker
And I like this concept of wholesaler because I think, yeah, we we need to build a market. We need to change the system. And you know we are really going against hundreds of years of capitalism. We're trying to redress some of the wrongs or things that capitalism has overlooked. So we really need to have an ambitious and system level initiative to address that.
00:18:24
Speaker
So why we created another wholesaler? you know There's a question, oh, there are already two wholesalers in the UK, is there space for another one? I'll talk a bit about the origin of Pathway Fund and then we'll go on to what it actually does.
00:18:40
Speaker
So the original Pathway Fund was when we worked on the Diversity Forum. It was great to get more people motivated by DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, more generally. But then we realized actually there needs to be more intentional focus on racial equity. And that was even before George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement that has also captured the imagination and attention of Europe.
00:19:07
Speaker
At that time, I think studies were showing that maybe 2% to 5% of social investment were going to black and minoritised-led enterprises. where while actually 12% of the UK are from ethnically diverse populations. and So there's just an imbalance that we have found, and you could also check the statistics even now on Bixiety Capital's website. We've supported them with their latest kind of review of their diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy.
00:19:43
Speaker
ah You can find the amount the fund manager has that have disclosed, the ethnicity makeup of the investment committee and boards, is still a very much predominantly all-white team that Big Society Capital has funded. so It's not just the underlying enterprises, but there's also a lack of intermediaries and fund managers that have diverse ethnically diverse leadership. and so i Alongside to other people, Stephen and Kunlei, we've been talking about, okay how do we address this? We actually started off thinking, okay let's create a fund to invest in enterprises.
00:20:23
Speaker
But then as we started thinking through the makeup of the fund, we then felt, oh, but there's still some system level challenges. like you know If we are really successful, we can raise maybe 20 million for this fund. OK, we can invest in 10 enterprises. What's that going to change for the years of racial inequity, et cetera?
00:20:43
Speaker
So we then thought, OK, let's be more ambitious. And that's when we also work more closely through Diversity Forum with Big Society Capital and Access and thought, OK, maybe there's something about a wholesaler. And at that time, our funder, ah the National Lottery Community Fund, which is the largest philanthropic funding in the UK, they also got really behind this idea of a wholesaler.
00:21:06
Speaker
And the premise of our wholesaler is also that it is black and minoritized lead. We believe strongly there is a lot of value in representation. And I know you know this had sort a podcast about women changing finance as well. When you have people who are from those backgrounds,
00:21:27
Speaker
leading the change. It makes it much easier to build trust with communities, particularly for Black and minoritized communities. If you think about the stories of a lot of people who came to this country, a lot of them have suffered financial trauma. They have left behind all all their wealth in the countries. Often they're fleeing from disaster, from war. So, you know,
00:21:50
Speaker
Black and minoritised communities in this country already have experienced a financial trauma. And talking about debt with them, like that, it folks a lot of bad memories as well. So we realise actually how the two wholesalers have been built, wouldn't resonate. You know, they are making incremental changes and I think kudos to them that they have really embarked on a progress, a lot of progress on this agenda. But because of the history,
00:22:20
Speaker
There's only a limit to how much they can build trust with communities that historically have faced financial trauma and have faced mistrust in financial institutions. So we feel we actually need to build a new type of organization that is led by and for people from ethnically diverse backgrounds.
00:22:41
Speaker
and then also build intentionally build those intermediaries that are also black and minoritized to support those enterprises. I mean, ultimately, the goal is to to achieve economic justice and liberation for black and minoritized communities, and we are doing it through the lever of investment and social enterprises.
00:23:03
Speaker
So how practically it will work is we are in this pilot phase for the last two years so we have raised three million pounds. I don't know what denomination your listeners would have but you know it's around like so let's say 3.5 million US dollars and We provide grant funding to different programs that are channeled through intermediaries. so It's really important to build enterprises. i mean Enterprises are always the backbone of economic growth. We have a focus on social enterprises.
00:23:38
Speaker
because they will then be also tackling the really important SDGs, that you know the Sustainable Development Goals that we all care about. So we have a program that provides grant funding to intermediaries so that they can support enterprises to become investment-ready.
00:23:53
Speaker
And as part of that program, there's also a blend of finance components. How can we use that grand capital, not just to fund enterprises to do the work they need to do a business plan, but also as part of the loan that they might eventually get?
00:24:10
Speaker
that grant can be used for grants and blends with loan products, so that the enterprises would be seen as less risky by those investors who want to give a loan to them. So that's one program. It's trial and tested already by Access, but we are kind of really taking on this representation component and also trying to innovate on the types of business support that's being provided that perhaps need to be tailored for Black and minoritize that enterprises. So that's enterprise development. ah We also have a very exciting program called First Time Fund Manager Incubator Program. So these are aspiring fund managers. They are usually like your your background before Krisztina, you know they're usually accelerators and incubators who know a lot how to build enterprises but don't come from a finance background.
00:25:04
Speaker
And they know from the experience that if they can just write a first check to those enterprises they have incubated and accelerated, it will dramatically change the course for the trajectory for those enterprises. So you know they're trying to raise their first fund but face a lot of barrier. So we have this incubator program and we also provide grant funding to them directly because most of the fund managers ah you know If you apply a diversity, equity and inclusion lens, they often need to basically pay for themselves to fund raise for two or three years before they can get to first close. So that's not very equitable. So we're actually providing grant funding to these fund managers as well and a wraparound support.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah, very excited. Earlier this week, we launched, and we kind of got the fund managers together to meet for the first time. And even the peer support, I mean, everyone felt, oh, it's so real reassuring that they're not alone on this journey.
00:26:05
Speaker
So those are some of the programs on how we use grants strategically in a catalytic way to build the capacity of new intermediaries and fund managers, but also to kind of channel more fit for purpose capital to the underlying enterprises.
00:26:22
Speaker
So that's kind of a majority of our grant funding work, but as as you know, the definition of wholesaler, you need to build the market and you need to influence the mainstream as well, because our grant activities are geared towards the impact investment ecosystem.
00:26:38
Speaker
But we also recognize the rest of the financial ecosystem needs to move to embrace racial equity. So a really exciting piece of work we launch is to create a racial equity scorecard for publicly listed companies.
00:26:53
Speaker
there are racial equity scorecards in the US, for example, but the UK context on racial equity is different. I mean, the history is different. And I would say the UK context for racial equity is not dissimilar to where you are, Krisztina in France and other European countries. So we felt we needed it like a scorecard that speaks more to the UK and largely European context.
00:27:16
Speaker
So we build a scorecard as well. So there's like 19 indicators for companies to be assessed on their racial equity performance. And so yeah, we're quite busy at the whole seller.
Personal Motivations and Inspirations
00:27:29
Speaker
I just do one day a week with them.
00:27:31
Speaker
but the rest of my team at the consultancy, you know the consultant is really kind of incubating and like part of the founding partners to make this happen. So all of my team are also involved, whether from a research or learning or structuring angle, but yet the ah pathway fund is already set up independently and we're recruiting for our chair and will be independently run from like September. So yeah, it's been really exciting to like build it from scratch.
00:27:59
Speaker
Thank you thanks bony so much for explaining it in such a clear way. And I also want to applaud the fact that in so many different ways and so many different levels, this is built with the experience of the people who will need it.
00:28:17
Speaker
and kind of really tackling even the smallest barriers at every level. So it's it's it's something that is really innovative and at the same time incredibly thoughtful. So my ah you know my wish is definitely that there is more of these funds.
00:28:34
Speaker
out there. You mentioned something, and I'm curious about your views on it in passing about the the latest example you gave about the racial equity scorecard. You probably know that, for example, in France, it's not possible to ask people for their ethnicity data.
00:28:53
Speaker
So, whereas it's possible to do that in the US, in the UK, and in other places, can you reflect on maybe the pros and cons from your perspective? It's been a debate for a long time in France. I don't think we have landed, but when I see the work that you're doing and the progress that it allows to unleash, I'm potentially really convinced that we should be reviewing how we're looking at certain things here.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, i of course, I'm biased because I also do a lot of impact measurement. So I do believe in the value of measuring. And if you can't measure it, you don't know where you can progress. So we we need a baseline to understand where we are. In the racial equity scorecard report, we actually have addressed this problem of in a galaxy of collecting f ethnicity data in places like France and Germany.
00:29:50
Speaker
The EU has an anti-racism plan, which is actually quite progressive and ambitious, and it did mention the inability to collect ethnicity data to be a barrier. In the Scorecard, we suggest companies to collect proxy data, whether that's linguistics or migration status,
00:30:14
Speaker
to get a better sense whether they are representing people from different backgrounds. But I do think that needs to shift because ultimately, we all have our identities, whether we like it or not.
00:30:28
Speaker
and indeed, people do identify by their ethnicity and race. And indeed, that's also how we are identified when we walk around the streets, right? So when I go around in France, people say ni hao to me on on the street. Like, that's already identifying. So we all identify. So why can't we identify? I think the case of Germany is a bit more sensitive with the history of the Holocaust. But I i think in France,
00:30:57
Speaker
I would hope to see at least more openness to understanding the underlying drivers for differences in outcomes that people face. So yeah, I'm hopeful that there will be some sort of progress and we're hoping the racial equity scorecard can help us have a less kind of sensitive conversation because I think what the problem of racial equity also in the UK is, it is seen as it's not necessarily a taboo but it's a sensitive topic that people don't really want to open the Pandora's box.
00:31:34
Speaker
But what we try to do with the racial equity scorecard is almost take the emotion out a little bit. This is just good for business. We need that space for emotional conversations too. But yeah what we're saying, this is just good for business. And a lot of businesses already thinking about it have pressure from their consumers to think about it, ya especially if they also have operations in the US. So let's think about it together in the European context.
00:32:00
Speaker
So yeah, I'm curious how we can maybe through you, share the racial equity scorecard with some French companies just to open the conversation to then take forward to action.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that would be a good start to kind of try it in practice, how it works. And i I'm also a good believer in the proxy approach because it it starts to enable a conversation about data and evidence and what is exactly happening without, as you say, opening up the Pandora's box about the philosophy behind it.
00:32:38
Speaker
So thanks for you know explaining it in such a clear manner. Well, i I also wanted to, I guess, ask you about how you got here. You started explaining it in different ways, and and ah you explained your history about how you moved from the Hong Kong ecosystem to the UK. But you are doing so many things today with such success. your gender equity advocate, writer. You are also the CEO of a consultancy that is doing an incredibly high number of innovations and projects. You are also the chair of a social enterprise and having a number of board positions in different organizations. Can you tell us a bit about how you balance these different activities?
00:33:27
Speaker
Maybe is there a red thread or a mission that you have, maybe a theory of change for yourself?
Networking and Achievements in Finance
00:33:34
Speaker
And yeah, I think that would be really interesting to to hear. And perhaps if there were any pivotal moments that got you from one thing to the other or any reflections.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, wow. There's so much. So but the first thing I would say is I do get questions like, oh, you're so young and you're doing so many things. And then I have this view that I've developed recently about age, which I want to share with you but because I think it's similar to yeah your experience as well. So I tell people, okay, my age is okay, my age, but also how I see age is the years of unlived potential of my ancestors. I feel very strongly about this, particularly my grandmother who raised me, and couldn't achieve her full potential because of gender inequality. you know she She still can't read and write, and I think I'm kind of living life for her as well. so sometimes i I think there's a Western concept
00:34:43
Speaker
maybe largely more Anglo-Saxon concept of self-made or that we are just individuals and you know whatever we achieve is just ours. But I'm of a belief through this age example, I'm of the belief that I'm i'm only here because of what my ancestors have done.
00:35:01
Speaker
or didn't manage to do that I need to do. So my resilience is like really their resilience because I don't think I'm very resilient as an individual, but I probably got that from, yeah, particularly the women who really had to fight for just their right to be educated, etc. So that's just a view that to share.
00:35:23
Speaker
ah And it's beautiful. I really want to hold on to it. Age is the unlived potential of my ancestors. Yes, this one yeah I'm sure it will resonate with you. So I want to share that. and But yes, in terms of like how how I got here. When I started out as a social entrepreneur, I really felt that there were so many barriers with the capital system that I need to change. And I was fortunate in the consultancy, having landed a role in the consultancy, to be able to start changing it. But it was quite difficult because I don't have three years in banking that I can just
00:36:05
Speaker
cling on to, even though I did study business and finance. So being able to just establish that kind of resilience in myself and over time, like and I think it made a big difference having peers like you, Krisztina, also working in finance but not coming from a traditional finance background so I can remind myself, okay, I can do it.
00:36:29
Speaker
So I think it's like years of persistent networking, going to events, trying the best I can, maybe working more on the fringes of finance, like policy research, but gradually building my experience to get into now what I believe is most important is like working on investment deals, structuring funds.
00:36:53
Speaker
because those are really the crucial functions that enable change to happen. But if you don't come from a finance background, it's very hard to work in those areas. And I really think I feel very fortunate that I've had a lot of women, particularly, who supported me over the years to get into the fringes of Impact Investment, of course, the late Suzanne Bieggel, who was always a champion for a lot of women in the sector. She brought me into this group, Women in Social Finance, which is a group for women who are working in this space who can just network with each other. I was a coordinator for them for a few years, and that really exposed me to like fantastic women who are all
00:37:39
Speaker
collaborative and giving each other opportunities. and Through that, I think I was able to establish my experience and never giving up, you know always trying, okay, how can I use this opportunity to perhaps work on the next project? and Not being shy, like the amount of networking that I've done over the years, it's not natural for me to like go and reach out to people, but I realized that you know if you really have to advocate for yourself,
00:38:08
Speaker
but also relying on people like you. you know I feel very fortunate. I have people that I got to know over the years that I continue to keep in touch with who can also advocate for me. and I think that's particularly important, yeah really, for women or marginalized group that's trying to change a system like finance, which is so male-dominated.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many beautiful things that you mentioned, but perhaps one that I want to to kind of double click on, which I think that often we're either too busy to stop and celebrate or sometimes too humble to talk about our achievements.
00:38:55
Speaker
So I really wanted to ask you what are the things that today make you feel most proud? What are the things that you have seen to be your successes and achievements? So yeah, this is your opportunity.
00:39:10
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for asking that. Well, I'll i'll share a few. I think one, I am still very proud of my social enterprise that kind of got me into this space, particularly our work now enabling women, particularly indigenous women to tell their stories around climate change.
00:39:29
Speaker
and showcasing them in front of policymakers so that policymakers can change their perspectives on climate adaptation policy and really integrate gender perspectives into that. And I'm very proud of Lydia, a Kenyan lady who's taken the helm from me to lead Lensational and the work it continues to do.
00:39:52
Speaker
And in Hong Kong, what we've done ah with Lensational, I'm very proud that we've continued to work, you know, through volunteer ah leadership, really, but that we've continued to work with migrant workers, migrant domestic workers, and to enable them to tell their stories. And we've had a few fantastic women, particularly, who became professional photographers. One is Colleen, and I just feel so proud of being the seat of making all these happen. I couldn't claim the credit for it. I just kind of had this idea, brought people together, but then they've gone on to do really amazing things. and I feel very strongly about like these issues around migration, climate, and care with a gender lens because I think that's really going to affect the next decades you know with the aging population, with climate crisis,
00:40:48
Speaker
Higher levels of migration more than ever feel very strongly that women's voices really need to shape the discourse and the policy decisions around it. And I'm proud that on a small scale, we have been able to do that and create the small changes despite not having much money at all.
00:41:07
Speaker
And then the second thing that I'm proud of is meeting my teams. So through the different organizations and back to your question earlier too, like how do I balance it? I can't do everything and I just feel very fortunate to have I'm proud to have teams like Bengni, women, people of color who are working on projects with me, and that they all are very caring for each other. At Pathway Fund, we had a strategy day yesterday, and one of our principles that I feel very strongly about is collective care. and I really feel my teams, we they are all very talented. but We all care for each other.
00:41:49
Speaker
And I feel proud that for some of them, they probably their potential would have been overlooked by other employers. So yeah, I do feel very proud about that. And then I think my kind of final achievement would just be kind of continuing to be a champion for other people. Because I think it's easy, but there's a saying also, power corrupts. Or when people become successful, they then take the ladder up.
00:42:22
Speaker
you know, that people, especially for women who have kind of progressed, they then don't let others to like come through anymore. And I also feel, you know, k Krisztina, you are doing that with this podcast, amplifying voices of other women in your free time, because, you know, you do don't have to do it.
00:42:40
Speaker
but it's really important that we continue to do it. so We're building the tent and we're doing whatever we can to give back because maybe indeed we are the lucky ones who have been able to really marry purpose with kind of career and other life choices and we can't take it for
Balancing Work and Personal Interests
00:42:59
Speaker
granted. so Whenever we can, we need to keep doing it for others. I'm glad for myself.
00:43:05
Speaker
proud for myself that I didn't lose sight of that because if it's very easy to just let the awards or like credentials, five-star hotels you know rush into your head and like forget what you're originally there for.
00:43:21
Speaker
i agree I agree. I also feel incredibly privileged to do what I do. And it's so great to be surrounded by people who remind you that you can't just sit back and relax. It's it's not what we are here for. and And exposing ourselves to different conversations, different people, different geographies, different cultures allows you to, I guess, remain true to this mission. And I completely agree with you.
00:43:50
Speaker
And I also love this um new concept of collective care. I mean, it's putting a word on something that I've been thinking about for a long time. We often have this in many organizations in our space and it's so special. It's part of the DNA of working in and this sector and I do appreciate it a lot.
00:44:11
Speaker
Thanks, thanks, Bonnie. And perhaps when one question, I mean, you've started touching upon it, but perhaps you have other other additional thoughts. What helps you become your best self? Or how how do you you know balance work, life, and and everything else are all around?
00:44:32
Speaker
Oh, it's ah the the answer is different every day. I think more ideally, I will have sun and warmer weather to be my best self, because I'm from subtropical region, and being in London now is quite tough. So this sp well i you know despite not having vitamin D to be my best self, I i try to... um i mean i I think some of it is luck. I think things have happened to me that I feel very grateful for, all like having a really supportive partner. And we now have a daughter who is also quite like who is not too naughty and time consuming. so i feel oh I do enjoy spending time with her so I can take my mind off work.
00:45:24
Speaker
um Arts and culture is really important for me. like i I think last year was very busy and I got to a point where I kind of became not very creative. like I was just on autopilot because you know when you're so busy, you have back-to-back meetings all day, you're just like you can't innovate.
00:45:43
Speaker
And then I got to a point where I felt, oh, I'm missing arts and culture. And I feel very fortunate. Again, in London, like you in Paris, you know you you have access to great culture. And for me, particularly poetry, I've started to ah thanks to actually a client of mine. ah she We went to, and and she's called Claire. She's from a nonprofit called We Do Focus on Women's Empowerment in Thailand. She invited me to go to an event with Poetry Unbound, which is a podcast that explores poetry from all across the world. And it was it in a cathedral, so it was like beautiful. So like things like that helped me balance because it's also
00:46:30
Speaker
I feel when you're changing finance, it can get quite technical. OK, let's think about the leverage ratio, or should we structure it as an equity or debt and spreadsheets and projecting cash flow forecasts and stuff. So it can be quite technical. But you know when you're doing it in the social impact context, you do need to connect back to your heart and the why of doing things.
00:46:58
Speaker
So I feel arts and culture helped me to have that link and helped me explore a different side of my brain to like be my best self.
00:47:10
Speaker
and also for my general well-being. Of course, like people like you, when I go to conferences, of course, it's very stressful, but I often feel I can still meet people who I know just have my best interests, not with my professional head on, but just my personal best interests in mind that I can just be my whole self. That's also a part of it.
00:47:34
Speaker
things, I do relate with that. And I want to ask you any good poetry that you would recommend?
Advice for Changemakers
00:47:42
Speaker
Oh, i I'm not that great. I don't remember things anymore. Like that's also part of maybe working too much or having a two year old who doesn't sleep much.
00:47:54
Speaker
But I i actually yeah really like the poet Christina Rossetti. She's one of the few female poets that are prominent at the time. And she has a lot of love poems, but I just feel like all her poems are just really excellent. So I really recommend Christina Rossetti.
00:48:19
Speaker
But yeah, also to listen to the Poetry Unbound podcast because they really shed light on poets from all across the world. And a note, like another concept to plug, but I found it very inspiring was when I was in school studying, I studied literature, and it was called literature in English.
00:48:42
Speaker
and But you know all of us are like, why do we say literature in English? Why not just say English literature? Because that's shorter to say. So we like ask the the teacher, because it's annoying when you have to say a long word. When you're a teenager, you want to be cool. and The teacher actually says something really profound that really stuck with me. So he said English literature means it's literature of the English people, just how it's phrased. But literature in English is just English as a language that's owned by everyone.
00:49:11
Speaker
And that really stuck with me because then that meant we were just studying things that were written by people from across the world. And it's about reclaiming that language for a lot of us who were born or are descendants of colonialism. That's very much like reclaiming the English language for ourselves. So the Poetry Unbound podcast features a lot of poets who are outside of the UK or US, or you know indigenous people, Native Americans in the US, which I really appreciate because it has a different take to the language that also helps me expand my imagination.
00:49:52
Speaker
Thanks. Absolutely. I will definitely look into that too. We're approaching the end of this conversation sadly. I have two kind of quick questions that I ask everyone. and but I don't want to plant an answer in in your mind, but I know that I haven't asked you about what are the things that we should be learning from the emerging markets that you are seeing as as really exciting.
00:50:21
Speaker
So the first question is, what keeps you positive or optimistic? And the second is, what or who is inspiring you? So yeah, open to you. Yeah, I mean, most keeping me positive. I do think my interactions with colleagues, collaborators in emerging markets are keeping me positive. Recently, I've been working a lot more in Indonesia, which is where my grandmother was born.
00:50:47
Speaker
And I've always had a ah hope for my career that I can work in the country that means so much to her and maybe eventually bring her on one of my business trips. So, you know, very great to work in Indonesia and the amount of optimism, the level of entrepreneurialism.
00:51:05
Speaker
that I see and in my colleagues over there, ah that's been keeping me positive. Because I think the general mood in Europe is quite grim. There's a lot of focus on the divisions and polarization, et cetera. And it's just a very different mood. And I'm sure you also experience. So that's keeping me positive.
00:51:29
Speaker
But also the work of GSG is keeping me positive. like I think the amount of growth that I see, the number of national advisory boards that are popping up across the world, it does seem that oh impact economy will be just the normal economy. like I do feel very excited about that prospect.
00:51:51
Speaker
And what ah who's inspiring me, I mean, it is such a long list. I think the trick is how can you find inspiration in the smallest things around you every day? It's not, you know, you we don't need to be inspired by Karl Marx, you know, we can be inspired by a plant. I often get quite inspired by plants.
00:52:12
Speaker
and their resilience and like it's the blossoming season now. So whenever I walk past something that's bright purple pink, I'm like, wow, that's so nice. you know They waited so long to like blossom you know for a few weeks. So it's about finding the smallest things that inspire. Yes, I can't live without my plants.
00:52:32
Speaker
so I agree completely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Bonnie. Perhaps as a final, you know, it's time to conclude. So do you have any final thoughts or advice for fellow changemakers or any specific ask of the listeners?
00:52:50
Speaker
Yes, two things. I think one, finance needs more people from different backgrounds to change it. We can't rely on the people who have been growing up in the a system of finance because they would have too many blind spots. We need them, but we can't just have them. So i I hope there are more listeners coming from different backgrounds, even like artists. you know We need really more artists who are changing finance.
00:53:19
Speaker
So that's one. I think the second one is we need to really tackle the issue of inequality. I've been really pleasantly kind of surprised by the momentum. You know, it's always two steps forward, three steps back kind of situation, but at least there's momentum towards addressing climate change, like very different from 10 years ago or even five years ago. But I mean, you you are French, so you know Thomas Piketty is amazing talking about inequality, but there's not much action on actually tackling inequality apart from taxation. That's got to change, and I really want to see more
00:54:01
Speaker
impact investors. you know we've We've been involved in a project called Equality Impact Investing Project to try to get more impact investors to focus on reducing inequality. But we haven't really gained much attention from investors because it's often like, hmm,
00:54:19
Speaker
maybe gender, maybe race, yeah but not the systemic inequality or like socio-economic class and the things that Piketty talks about. And we haven't yet reimagined the kind of financing instruments in the system that can truly work in service of equality. So I think, yeah, I'm hoping that there's an ask. Let's think of more ideas and more actions that can truly tackle inequality in finance.
00:54:48
Speaker
Thanks. i I agree with you in the sense that it's often very uncomfortable for people who have been benefiting so much of the system to think about how to you know set aside where you're coming from and really think without yourself in the picture about how we're building equality. We're more fair and just societies for everyone. It's uncomfortable, but it's where courage lies when you are able to do that. And so I very much hope that we will collectively have the courage to have a positive conversation because it it doesn't need to be a negative conversation. It can be a really, really positive, really enriching conversation about how we level it up for everyone.
00:55:34
Speaker
So thank you so much, Bonnie. Thank you for your time today. It was such a pleasure to have you on the show. And yeah, I hope to see you very soon somewhere around the world. Thank you.
00:55:53
Speaker
If you will stay with us, thank you so much for the time that you took to discover one of the amazing women changing finance. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and on social media. Your feedback is also incredibly valuable. Please take a moment to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. It will help me for the next episodes. And don't miss out on future episodes. Subscribe to the podcast and follow me on LinkedIn. See you for the next episode.