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00:00:01
Ally Beavan
54 Plays4 years ago
Ally is author of Broken 2020: the year running records were rewritten.
The book takes an entertaining look at 2020 long-distance running and records that were broken throughout.
Some of the things Ally and I chat about include some of the stories in the book, how and why 2020 was so different for running records and what we think the future, post covid running world potentially holds.
You can connect with Ally on Twitter.
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Transcript
Introduction of Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to this episode of the UK sports chat podcast. How are you all? Hope you're all good. I'm your host, Joe Williams. And in this episode, I speak with Ali Bevan. Ali is author of Broken. 2020, the year running records were rewritten.
2020: A Year of Running Records
00:00:17
Speaker
The book takes an entertaining look at why 2020 was so unusual for long distance running as so many records were broken throughout.
00:00:25
Speaker
Ali and I chat about, amongst other things, some of the stories in the book, how and why 2020 was so different from running records and what we think the future potentially holds. Hope you enjoy the interview and see you next week.
Adapting Workouts During Lockdown
00:00:40
Speaker
Morning, Ali. Good morning. How are you? I'm all right. I've got the doms, but apart from that. All right. Where have you been? Where have you been out running?
00:00:50
Speaker
I haven't. I haven't. This is, this is dons induced by strength work in the living room. Okay. Yeah. Have you been doing plenty of that men? Have you doing a lot? Yeah, I've been doing some, but because of, uh, well, lockdown and winter, I'm not getting the chance to do much hill running. So I started doing these muscular endurance workouts, which are kicking the crap out of me, which is what they're supposed to do, I suppose. But, you know, I'm sure in the long run, I'll be glad I'm doing it, but right now.
00:01:21
Speaker
So what are you doing? Give us an example, workout. So I've taken from the training for the uphill athlete book, Scott Johnson and Steve House and Killian Jornet, and there's sort of off-season training for mountain runners and ski mountaineers. I'll just tell you what it is, six sets of ten.
00:01:44
Speaker
of box steps lunges jump split squats yep and jump squats yeah they're killers
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like the first, it's nasty because the difficulty of the exercises is really back loaded. So you go through the box steps and the lunges and you think, I don't think this is doing very much. I should have added weight. I should have done this. I should have done that. And then as you progress through the last two exercises, you suddenly realize that getting out of bed in the morning is going to be a struggle. Yeah.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah.
Life in Granton on Spey
00:02:15
Speaker
I've made the mistake of adding weight to lunges in the past and I only just used to use a bar, but the next day my hamstrings would be like, yeah, why have you done that? I think with any new strength training exercise, I mean the time to assess how difficult it is, is two days later. Yeah. You're feeling at the time, probably less reliable.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. The dreaded doms. So where abouts are you? I'm in Granton on Spey, just up the road from Abbeymore, in the Cairngorms, pretty much. OK, so are you getting out much then or not?
00:03:00
Speaker
I mean, I'm getting out every day. I haven't run on dry trails yet this year. Looking outside now, it is somehow simultaneously pissing with rain and snowing.
00:03:14
Speaker
I don't really know how it works, but that combined with the Dons, my enthusiasm for going running today is pretty low. So the longer we can drag this out, the better. I was going to say with the storm happening for everyone listening, it's Thursday morning, so it's the way we're recording. So you've got the storm quite bad up there, haven't you?
Inception of 'Broken' and Pandemic Influence
00:03:34
Speaker
it's been a really weird winter so far it's been really calm this is the first like stormy day that i can remember so i mean i guess it's it's gonna happen eventually isn't it yeah yeah and in january in the highlands it feels silly to complain that it's windy cool okay so um tell us tell us about the book give us a top line how about the book please well
00:04:01
Speaker
I have a copyright here because I don't trust myself to remember about it. The book is called Broken. 2020, the year running records were rewritten. Yeah. Published by Vertibut Publishing in Sheffield. Very kindly let me haver on about my favourite subject for 50,000 words. Very kind of. Cool. It is what it sounds like. It is about a lot of the
00:04:29
Speaker
hill running, mostly hill running, some not hill running, records that were broken last summer. Yeah. Cool. So it's all about the last 12 months. So was this something that you already had planned to write or was it something that came to you as a new idea? It didn't even come to me as a new idea. Okay.
00:04:56
Speaker
The idea for the book came from Kirsty Reed, who is a publishing commissioning editor, sorry for the hard to break. And I know Kirsty through, I don't even know, running, somehow or other. And she knew that I'd been spending quite a lot of my furlough time staring at GPS trackers on my laptop instead of actually going
Record-Breaking Experiences and Running History
00:05:24
Speaker
out and running.
00:05:24
Speaker
And so she thought that I would be well-placed to write about it. And so I already had a bunch of ideas of things I wanted to write. I didn't know where I was going to put them. And I was also I was getting out and running with a fair few people who were out attempting to break various records. And so I had some some sort of firsthand
00:05:54
Speaker
accounts of what it's like for these kinds of people, which is sometimes something that is missing in the coverage of this stuff. I was very conscious that I didn't want to write like a series of news articles. I wanted there to be a bit more depth to it than that, a bit more nitty gritty, I suppose.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm, my confession is I'm on chapter two at the moment, but you've already, you've already mentioned within the book about dot watching on the GPS. Um, and you can sense your interest in, in others. So with Kirsty approaching you, is that something that you're interested in as much as your own running then and seeing other people, you know, achieving these things and completing these challenges? Yeah. I mean, I suppose, um,
00:06:50
Speaker
bit of a fan. I guess a bit of an anorak. I just find it very interesting, like the way that the way that these things develop the history of some of these records. And you know, now, the standard a lot of this stuff is really quite high. You know, the people, the people who feature most prominently in the book are pretty serious athletes. They're not just like, they're not just people who
00:07:19
Speaker
show up with the rocks out for the sandwiches and give it a bash. There's a bit more rigor to their preparation than that. Cool. Okay.
Exploration of Running Challenges and FKTs
00:07:31
Speaker
So tell us more about the book then. Tell us more about the challenges and specifically FKT, you know, the fastest known times.
00:07:43
Speaker
Well, there's a range of things in there. Initially, when I sat down to start writing the book, I decided that I didn't want it to be solely comprised of really long stuff. I wanted it to be a bit more accessible. So if there was there was stuff in there that people who were not mega athletes could go out and have a go at.
00:08:05
Speaker
And I completely failed to do that. It is mostly full of pretty long stuff. The shortest thing in there time-wise, I think, is the Bob Graham, Beth Pascal's Bob Graham. Yeah. It's pretty hill running heavy, but there's also some stuff about Land's End to John O'Groats. I went and shuffled along the side of a dual carriage way with Dan Lawson for a few hours on a Thursday evening. And there's a few
00:08:33
Speaker
a few people who have slightly different perspectives. So there's a chapter where I talked to Nikki Ligo who claims she is not a runner and knows nothing about ultra running but actually knows more about it than most people in the sport. She was John Kelly's crew for the Pennine Way
00:08:54
Speaker
Um, and she has something of a fixture on the spine race as well, the support team on that. And then there's, there's a gentleman at the end who may be my favorite person in the book, a guy called Stephen Poulton, who, uh, cycled the three peaks, some, um, Snowden and Scavill biking van Nevis 40 years ago.
00:09:15
Speaker
and then did it again this year in his 70s sleeping in ditches and service station car parks and stuff. Wow. Yeah. Okay, so for those who listen to this, who don't know what these records are, for example, let's just go through a couple of the events in there. What is a Bob Graham ring?
00:09:42
Speaker
Okay, the Bob Graham round is a circuit of 42 peaks in the Lake District. It was done in the 30s by a guy called Bob Graham, unsurprisingly. And at the time, it was the Lakeland 24 hour record. So it was the most hills that someone had run up in the Lake District in a day. And it's been
00:10:07
Speaker
Surpassed quite significantly since then can call us around 77 78 I can't remember this this this summer but for whatever reason it's it's caught on it's a really good balance of challenge and Achievability if that's yeah, it's a word. So now, you know 2000 and something people have done it and it's I guess it's it's the The best known hill running challenge in the UK. Yeah
00:10:37
Speaker
One of the best known in the world, actually, like people come from all over to do it now from the States and people from all over Europe and yeah. And that one's had quite a bit of press in the last few years because the record was broken twice, wasn't it? I think was it was it 2015, 2016, something like that? It was broken by Jasmine and then. Yeah, Jasmine broke the women's record in 2016 and then. Was it 2018 that Killian broke the men's record?
00:11:06
Speaker
And that was a men's record that stood for 30 years. Yeah. It had been held by Billy Bland. He was one of the great fellow runners for some people's money, the great fellow runner. Um, and, and had been regarded as untouchable pretty much. No one had, I don't know if anyone had ever actually set out to try and break it. People have tried to run fast times, but this was.
00:11:30
Speaker
This record was on a pedestal that no one even thought to try. So when that got broken, that was pretty big news. And then the story specifically within the book for this Bob Graham range was with Beth. Yeah, Beth Pascal. That's really interesting, actually, because she's one of the people who is very open about the fact that she was only doing this because there was no racing.
00:11:57
Speaker
that usually, this year she was going to run Western States, 100 mile race in California and UTMB, which is UTMB, I guess most people know what that is. And that would be the pattern of her season indefinitely, really. She would always prefer racing because she's quite competitive and because
00:12:19
Speaker
feels like that's where you get to test yourself against the highest standard of opposition. But it's also a good demonstration of what happened this year where you have all these international caliber athletes with time on their hands and with no races to train for and they turn their attention to these things and all of a sudden
00:12:48
Speaker
Jasmine's Bob Graham record, which was seen as incredibly strong, almost in the same league as Billy Bland's record was, had been broken by 50 minutes, which is a massive margin. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So.
00:13:07
Speaker
How involved did you get in that? Did you go on crew? I wasn't involved in Beth directly. I spoke to her about it afterwards. I knew it was going to happen. I think I knew someone who was pacing for her. But her run actually was not really publicised ahead of time, which these days is kind of unusual and
00:13:35
Speaker
quite refreshing actually. There was no GPS tracker. There was no like Instagram or Twitter hype or anything like that. She just went out and got on with it and did it. Which in a way made it all the more impressive, right? Because you're not following along. There are no expectations. You just see that it's done. It's a surprise. Yeah, it takes some internal drive to do that, doesn't it?
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, you mentioned the spine race and
Pennine Way and Spine Race Records
00:14:12
Speaker
the Pennine Way. Do you want to give us an overview of what they are for those who might not know? Uh, well, the Pennine Way is, how long is the Pennine Way? 260 something miles? Yeah. From, from Edale to Kirk yet. Um, I think it's the, it was the first national trail in the UK or
00:14:34
Speaker
something like that and the spine race is a race which has been going on for um must be nearly 10 years now uh which goes up the Pennine Way in January um in the middle of winter and is um yeah has has a i suspect a justified reputation for being quite difficult yeah it's dark for you know 16 hours or whatever it might be and
00:15:04
Speaker
underfoot conditions can be horrendous. The Pennine Way is very boggy in summer. It's even worse. But the record on the Pennine Way was another of these very old records. It was set in the late 80s and a few people had tried, but no one had really got close. And then this year it was broken in twice in a week.
00:15:33
Speaker
twice in 10 days, something like that, by John Kelly and Damian Hall. And then later in the summer, actually, there was a women's record which was established. There wasn't really an existing women's record before, but Sabrina Virjee went and ran it in just over three days, I think, which was kind of remarkable.
00:16:03
Speaker
So how did you go about choosing, well, sorry, let me go back one. How many stories are there in the book and how did you go about choosing which ones you wanted to include and how did you get involved in them? I guess there's about 10 different runs that are in there. Most of the ones that I was directly involved in are things which
00:16:30
Speaker
were relatively close to my house. And most of them, I should say, most of the people I went out and ran with are people that I know or I know their crew. So I guess I'm not nice enough or mercenary enough to just go out and foist myself upon people so I can write about them in my book. But like the lines I did John wrote,
00:16:59
Speaker
passes quite close to a lot of people's houses because it's many hundred kilometers long. And then like with Donny Campbell, there are two chapters about Donny Campbell's Monroe round because it was just so big. You know, it took him 32 days. I went and did a day with him in the Cairngorm and then choosing
00:17:22
Speaker
who else I wanted to talk to, people I thought would be interesting, people for whom there was maybe a little bit more than just someone who went out and ran fast, because I guess there's only so much that can be said about something like that. But with all of it, the backdrop is
00:17:51
Speaker
pandemic, you know, and the changes in people's lives that come about because of that, people who had full international race calendars who are all of a sudden doing obscure things on their doorstep. Yeah. And like some of the history of those obscure things is really interesting and quite funny because that there's women on the cover, actually, Joe Meek ran a 100k round on Dartmoor of
00:18:17
Speaker
28 of the tours up there which before this year had only been done four times before you know it was this thing that kind of not many people even knew about but then this year it's had I mean the number of completions has tripled yeah one guy did it three times yeah
00:18:41
Speaker
Because you can't go and race anywhere, you stay closer to home. And it's interesting to think about how much of that behaviour change will stick if the clan we once again have the option to go and race in the Alps or the Pyrenees or wherever. Whether people will value the things that are on their doorstep a bit more.
Impact of Virtual Events and Future of Racing
00:19:03
Speaker
how it marries up with people's growing awareness of the environmental damage of traveling to races. It's something you hear more and more people talk about. So if you can drive half an hour down the road instead of taking a flight, then so much the better, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So you opened your chapters about this.
00:19:31
Speaker
You summarized the year really well. You talk about how the virtual events kicked in after all the event cancellations. You give a really balanced view on how runners perceive these virtual events and also how it's impacted event directors.
00:19:55
Speaker
Mm. It was, I was actually very interesting conversation I had with James Elson, who runs Centurion running, 50 and 100 mile races. Yeah. But initially, I would have been as cynical as anyone about virtual events, I suppose, like virtual races, they're not races. And, you know, like, it's all the upsides and
00:20:22
Speaker
no sorry none of the upsides and all the downsides of racing so like there's all these like race t-shirts and medals that are going to end up in landfill one day and you don't actually get the social experience of racing or the competition or any of these things and so I was very much in that this is a load of bullshit camp but actually
00:20:41
Speaker
this year in particular, it's been a lifeline for race directors and events companies. Particularly, like your local 10 mile road race is probably put on by the local club and it's run by volunteers, but a lot of the bigger ultras are put on by professional event companies because there's so much to do. They're so sprawling. There's so much that needs to be coordinated with like
00:21:12
Speaker
permissions and facilities and all this stuff. It has to be someone's full-time job. And so actually, I've come around to seeing the virtual events as a way that people can support the race director. If people don't support the race directors and the events companies, then there won't be any races. When travel restrictions are lifted and we can go back to doing
00:21:40
Speaker
like there won't be anything to do because everyone's going out of business. And you see a lot of the, some of the big races that had to cancel and could only give partial refunds and stuff and people complaining about that. I mean, I have sympathy for people who've lost a bunch of money on race entry fees, but on the other hand, at least one events company that put on big international races has gone bust this year because of the
00:22:11
Speaker
need they felt to try and give people more money back. So, yeah, I mean, at a very selfish level, it'd be nice to get all your money back and to just do your own thing and spear up virtual racing. But in terms of the future viability of the sport,
00:22:31
Speaker
It probably is necessary to have a slightly more empathetic view towards the people who arrange it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there are a lot of costs that go out for, for event organizers, you know, way in advance of, of the events even taking place. Um, but yeah, you're actually just paying for a slice bananas at the aid station. They've got salaries to pay. They've got office space that they rent. Yeah.
00:22:59
Speaker
all this money that they can't get back. Yeah. How do you think this is going to play out for the industry as a whole? You mentioned the 10-mile road races that clubs run there. Do you think that there's potential that some clubs might not want to take the risk? Closing roads is expensive. Dealing with councils all the time, it goes into them. They might not want to take that risk moving forward.
00:23:29
Speaker
with everything that's gone on. Will people want to go out and run on roads tightly packed in like they were? Would they prefer it? Are we going to see it?
00:23:40
Speaker
a boom in the trail events because people want to be out, spread out further, you know, apart from each other. It's hard to know, isn't it? Different parts of the sport will be impacted in different ways. I think in Europe and definitely in the UK, we're a very, very long way away from ever having big city marathons again. Like you're not going to have 40,000 people cheat by jowl in some London park waiting to run 26 miles.
00:24:11
Speaker
You look at a lot of like hill races and fell races and you'd maybe be more optimistic about those because there's just fewer people. You know, your average hill race probably has a, I don't know, a hundred people at it, something like that. Yeah. Um, yeah. And you know, like I was really excited about the North district cross country season this summer, this summer there's winter. Yeah. I was like, what are all people there?
00:24:38
Speaker
Everyone's getting changed under a tree in the park. You'd think that that can make a return. It's hard to know because there's that part of it. There's the viability of the event itself from a transmission risk point of view, but there's also the commercial part. And, you know, you could put on
00:25:04
Speaker
you know, a comparatively COVID safe London marathon for a few hundred people. But that's not going to happen because financially just wouldn't work. Yeah. Um, and you know, even, even some of the bigger trail races, like there's not going to be 2000 people on the start line of UTMB this year. Or, I mean, I'd be very surprised if there was. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really know.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that trail events were already, you know, not taking over road running, but they were very much growing, weren't they, in terms of people wanting to do them. I think that we could see more people wanting to do those.
00:25:53
Speaker
And sadly, it's my personal opinion. I think that some road races won't potentially won't return for both of the reasons, like you say, for commercially and just a viable offer for safely, but hopefully not. And it's interesting to think about what, like what aspects of the race experience people are most fussed about. Cause you know, like James, the Centurion running crowd, they put on a few races this year and they had,
00:26:23
Speaker
you know like start waves of 10 people every however many minutes or whatever it might be and for a lot of people that's that's totally fine that's probably gonna bother the racing snakes more than it will bother like your
00:26:40
Speaker
mid-packers. Yes. Who get, get pretty much the same running experience without all the jostling and the elbows at the start. Like it's probably a win for some people. Yeah. Like really competitive folk. Like they want to be real time racing, everyone on the start line at the same time. Maybe that's more off-putting for them. Yeah. Perhaps. But then I guess it all probably
00:27:06
Speaker
feeds the growing popularity of things like the Bob Graham and people going off and trying to break records on their own, I suppose. Just tell us about the fastest known times, because that's mentioned at the start of the book, isn't it?
Popularity and Impact of FKTs in the Pandemic
00:27:25
Speaker
These have exploded really, haven't they, in the last 12 months?
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. People keep asking me to define what fastest known times are and I never really know what to say because it's quite a self-explanatory term. It came from sort of American long trails seen in like the late 90s, early 2000s, I think. And the known part is in there because
00:28:00
Speaker
guys were going out and running, whatever it might be, the John Muir Trail in Yosemite or the Colorado Trail or whatever. And because of the difficulty of finding information about these things, they weren't actually sure if what they'd done was the fastest time. They'd phone up someone that they thought would know and that person was kind of unsure and all the rest of it. And so in a way, an acronym, not an initialism, is becoming less and less
00:28:29
Speaker
relevant, right? Because there's so much more information out there now. It's so much easier to find out what the routes are, what the times are, stuff that this sort of deniability built into the FKT is not really necessary, but they're generally on trails. Will we do these things?
00:28:56
Speaker
link-ups of certain mountains like the Bob Graham or long trails like the Pennine Way, although also on the roads lands entry on a groats. The FKT bit gets some people's backs up because you know the history of this stuff in the UK is much much older than you know late 90s early 2000s.
00:29:21
Speaker
24-hour record has been around since 18 whatever the Pennine Way record has been there pretty much as long as the Pennine Way has and you know people think it's an imposition and an Americanism
00:29:35
Speaker
Why don't we just call them records, which is a point where you have some sympathy with. But I think I think I see so in the book that you do. I just don't really care. Ultimately, like I give it a lot of thought and I just it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of nitpicky. Yeah, that paragraph made me laugh. Even before last year,
00:30:04
Speaker
things have been getting more popular and part of that is the growth of the sport in general. The number of applications for races like UTMB or Western States or the West Island Way Race has been going up and the trend of Bob Graham finishes for example has been following that.
00:30:25
Speaker
It's also to do with how much easier it is now to find this information. There are countless websites out there that will give you GPS files that will tell you what the time limits are, will have like split calculators so you know exactly how you're doing, all that sort of thing. But then obviously last year, no racing, travel restrictions. Yeah, the depth
00:30:53
Speaker
of record setting last year was just ridiculous. But there was the Fell Running Association give out a long distance award every year, which is for this sort of long distance achievement outside of racing. And the short list last year, I mean, it wasn't particularly short. And in any normal year, anything on the list would have been
00:31:21
Speaker
a fairly obvious candidate to win it. And there would only have been, you know, three or four runs on the shortlist, but there were a dozen and a dozen more that could have been on there. And it's, I think because I spent so much time thinking about it and reading about it and writing about it, you kind of end up
00:31:51
Speaker
buried in it, and I occasionally would have to remind myself to step back and look at everything that had happened. And it was overwhelming. Like, both Leekland 24-hour records, the Men's and Women's, the 24-hour Monroe record, both Bob, not both Bob Graham records, there was records on all the big rounds, Bob Graham, Ransy's round in La Cabre, Patti Buckley and Snowdonia.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah. I'd be here all day. Yeah. And it's, it was, it was wild. It's like you said in the, in the first paragraph though, it was, um, the, the pandemic brought about the opportunity for, for those who wanted to, to actually live like a full-time athlete for the first time. It gave them the extra time to be able to, you know, from March to train for these things and in the summer.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's quite interesting. I spoke to a lot of people about how this year had been different and one thing that obviously came up again and again was that they had less racing, right? So they train more consistently. And someone like Kim Collison who broke the Lakeland 24-hour record.
00:33:09
Speaker
he was saying that in March, he sort of took a step back, right? What are my weaknesses? What do I not do enough of? Okay, I'll start here doing like, short hill reps, and then build from there. And then by the time July came along, he was in the shape of his life. Because he just had uninterrupted training. And because I mean, part of his job, he does like guided runs in the Lake District takes punters up, Blencathra and Haldell and whatever. And he wasn't doing that.
00:33:38
Speaker
which meant that a load of sort of junk miles for him were eliminated. He could focus on quality, on training really hard. And so you would think that in future, Kim would try and replicate that sort of structure to his year. He would race less so he could train more consistently so that when he did race, he'd be in better shape. But you ask him about it and he's kind of hums and hauls a bit and ultimately says, no, actually I quite like racing.
00:34:09
Speaker
Which is a theme. You know, Joe Meeks says the same thing. And I guess it's partly the fun of racing, the fun of going to different places, seeing different things. Yeah.
Racing Appreciation and Future Writing Plans
00:34:24
Speaker
It's really funny. I really quite like it. Yeah. People have that sort of attitude.
00:34:30
Speaker
the people you're quoting Ali are real serious you know runners but this what you're describing is the same right the way down to people who are just completing couch to 5k it's the same thing
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, they'll go out, book a race in every other week, because they enjoy the bits that you describe in the first part of the book. It's the race bars, it's the people, it's the socializing. And a lot of those things, like working on your weaknesses and taking a step back and then having less races can go out of the window. Yeah, totally, totally.
00:35:16
Speaker
Any plans for a follow-up after writing this one? Well, I mean, it's looking increasingly likely that I could just write a cookie cutter second edition, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to. I guess I just need to wait and see what happens. Yeah. I suppose. I mean, I know. I know what some people have planned for this year.
00:35:43
Speaker
some very interesting things, some quite audacious things, but... Yeah, I mean the potential for more this year, isn't there? Oh yeah, for a while I thought that maybe, you know, there was this massive uptake and interest in this stuff last year, maybe there would be a sort of reflection of that this year, if racing was back on. People would be mad keen to do nothing but race it, because they'd had their fill of trudging through the hills on their own.
00:36:13
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen for regrettable reasons. What's this space? Interesting to think about what could happen this year that might top what happened last year. I struggle to see where it can go.
00:36:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see. So the book's out now? Yep, yep, it is out now.
00:36:51
Speaker
local bookshop, I guess, or you can get it direct from the photo book publishing. I absolutely insist you can get it from Jeff Bezos, but I'd rather you didn't. That's broken. 2020, the year running records were rewritten. Ali, thanks very much for coming on and chatting to us. It's been great. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Cheers.