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Episode 274: Ruby McConnell on Stalling Out and Finding Hope Through Writing
167 Plays3 years ago
Ruby McConnell is the author of Ground Truth: A Geological Survey of a Life and A Woman's Guide to the Wild.
She is @rubygonewild on Twitter and Instagram.
Show notes are at brendanomeara.com and you can support the show by heading to patreon.com/cnfpod.
Thanks to West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing for the support.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Sonja Huber
00:00:00
Speaker
When I was at Hippo Camp, Sonja Huber, past guest on this podcast, author of the forthcoming memoir, Supremely Tiny Acts, a memoir of a day. Yeah, she'll be back on the show. She had a talk that was called Tending the Fallow. I love this idea of the in-between, the in-between projects, stories, books, et cetera. How do you process that period?
00:00:26
Speaker
It's a time when we, it's a time we don't cultivate or don't often cultivate because we always have to feel like, go, go, go, go, go. Gotta hustle, hustle, hustle.
Guest Ruby McConnell and 'Ground Truth'
00:00:35
Speaker
And so I figured I'd invite my good friend Ruby McConnell back to the show to see what she's up to, thinking, what she's up to and what she's thinking about, given that we're in that post-ground truth phase, that's her latest book. It was a ground truth geological survey of a life, an incredible collection of essays. I love that book. If you like nature essays and what they mean in the larger picture,
00:01:00
Speaker
And if you just love great writing, you should buy this book. It's an incredible book from a small press in Portland, Oregon. Well worth your money. Anyway, book came out last year. It was an Oregon Book Award finalist. Yeah, it is good. So check it.
The Concept of 'Tending the Fallow'
00:01:20
Speaker
So this tending the fellow gets the idea of seasonality.
00:01:24
Speaker
Professional athletes or Olympians, they aren't in 100% top shape the entire year. They use periodization and seasonality to dictate their training. There's an off-season, a pre-season, regular season, post-season, if you're lucky enough, on and on and on. And in the off-season, it's not like they're sitting around getting fat. They used to maybe in the old days,
00:01:51
Speaker
Nah, they're training. They're working on a new skill. Michael Jordan working on that fadeaway jumper. His off-season wasn't lazy. He was allowing the bodies and minds to recover and also develop some new skills so then when the real thing starts up again, boom, you're there. So there it's where we're at today. Oh, by the way, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories.
Podcast Promotion
00:02:18
Speaker
I'm Brendan O'Mara. Welcome.
00:02:27
Speaker
Sport for the Creative Nonfiction podcast brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan Colleges, Low Residency, NFF, and Creative Writing. Now in its 10th year, whoa, this affordable program boasts a low student and faculty ratio and a strong sense of community. Recent CNF faculty include Random Billings Noble, Jeremy Jones, and CNF POD alum Sarah Einstein. There's also fiction and poetry tracks. Recent faculty include Ashley Bryant Phillips and Jacinta Townsend.
00:02:55
Speaker
as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. No matter your discipline, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. MFA.wvwc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
00:03:13
Speaker
and consider supporting the show via Patreon. That's patreon.com slash cnfpod. Shop around if you want to support the community. There's the audio
Ruby on Creative Blocks and Fallow Periods
00:03:22
Speaker
magazine only tier and then from there you go get transcripts and some coaching, phone call, good stuff.
00:03:31
Speaker
I just paid out the writers for the last audio magazine, and you make that possible. The show is free, but it ain't cheap. Patreon.com slash CNF Pod. And show notes to this and more are at BrendanOMera.com. There you can sign up for my up to 11 newsletter, book recommendations, book raffles, articles, prompts, podcasts, you name it. First of the month, no spam, subvert the algorithm, man. You can't beat it.
00:04:02
Speaker
So, like I said, Ruby is the author of Ground Truth. When we had
Ruby's Writing Process and Percolation
00:04:06
Speaker
spoken about it on episode 202, you can go check that out. I'll speak in the show notes. It's a geological survey of a life, and she's also the author of A Woman's Guide to the Wild. Great stuff.
00:04:21
Speaker
We talk about how Ruby works in the face of hopelessness, stalling out. All the projects she has going, and they are exciting and good, and I can't wait for them to come out whenever they do. Just great excuse to have her back on the show, am I right? And also, like I said earlier, at the top of the show, tending the fallow, as my good friend, Sonia Huber, would say. Credit where credit is due. That is all, Sonia. So good.
00:04:49
Speaker
Ruby is at Ruby Gone Wild on Twitter and Instagram. You can keep the conversation going at CNFpod and at Brendan O'Mara on Twitter or Instagram. CNFpod is still in the underage court of appeals on Instagram. Did it die? Most likely. Ruby's work can be found at RubyMcConnell.com and you can listen to her right now.
00:05:19
Speaker
So you're kind of in that period between projects. How have you been tending the fallow, Asanya would say? Oh, man. You know, it's like such an interesting question. Yeah, I like that language. And I think that the way that I think about it is that I have to sort of feed my imagination.
00:05:47
Speaker
And one of the things that I discovered in this year of quieting was that I do a lot of my writing as what I can only describe as a kind of walking meditation.
00:06:07
Speaker
And I do it specifically in hiking, long distances, often in solitude. And I do
Ruby's Professional Challenges and Frustrations
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Speaker
that. I used to do it with swimming. And then in this period, I wasn't doing as much hiking. The trails were really full. And I didn't have that freedom that I wanted.
00:06:26
Speaker
to do that. And I certainly wasn't going to the pool. And I kind of lost that sense of repetitive movement that was somehow settling in my body and allowing my mind to think on a different level than I think when I'm actually trying to craft language.
00:06:56
Speaker
And I don't know. I mean, I feel like a lot of people talk about like they they talk about sitting down and thinking about What they want to write or you know, they talk about like writers black. Oh, I can't sit down and think of anything I go gosh, I don't even I don't even try to sit down until I have something to say, you know, and I tend to really just You know walk away from I walk away from from writing very easily, you know like right now I'm um
00:07:22
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Right now I'm under deadline. And I should be writing every day. Because, you know, technically one would think
Ruby's Journey with Reading and Writing
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Speaker
that that's what one would do when under deadline and I'm not writing at all. And I'm not concerned about it. I am...
00:07:37
Speaker
processing something and when I'm ready to write it I will write it and I will write it quickly and it'll probably come out sort of in in big gulps so I'm just I'm just not concerned I'm waiting and I'll kind of know
00:07:54
Speaker
When i'm ready and it's that's something that i've been doing from a very young age that that process of what my mom calls percolating And it's there's there's no consciousness to it whatsoever. I turn my mind completely And then i'll wake up here. Hopefully in a couple of days Hopefully sometime soon Um and be ready and and probably write really productively for many hours
00:08:24
Speaker
and well through to completion and with ease. It's just my process. I like that. I like that idea. It reminds me of gray whales that will come to the surface, and then they'll go on a deep dive, and they're down there for a long time. And then they come back up. And I love this idea of going away for a while, and she was like, you know what? I got to go on this little trip.
00:08:49
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And then I'm gonna come back up for air and that's when I'm gonna just do some sprinting here and get some stuff out, but you gotta step away and recharge in that way. I really like hearing you say that. It's a great process. Yeah, and I think, too, there's an element of engaging the brain body. As humans, we like to sort of think that our brain is just
00:09:17
Speaker
what sits inside our cranium. But in fact, it's a body-wide organ that interacts with all of our other organs and all of our sensory proprioception. And I think for me in particular, because I come out of movement arts as well as sort of
00:09:43
Speaker
heady scientific research, I'm very aware of needing to feed the whole brain and wanting to engage the whole brain in my work. And so for me, like physicality is an important part of writing process, especially because the task
Passion Amidst Professional Challenges
00:10:04
Speaker
of actually putting words onto paper
00:10:09
Speaker
is so detached from the body. But I feel like the creative part of it for me has to happen with that larger brain before I can kind of isolate it down and use the just sort of like the communication part to get it on the page.
00:10:28
Speaker
I'm big on carrying notebooks and pencils with me wherever I go. When you go on long walks or hikes by yourself, do you constantly keep some sort of implements on you so you can snatch those ideas out of the ether?
00:10:40
Speaker
No, I don't have ideas. Bullshit. I mean, really, if I mean, if you were to ask me and my mom does because my father and I do this, so I mean, let me this is this is so complete, like in my day to day life, I have to learn to to coach friends and people who know me. I've learned to say silence means I'm thinking.
00:11:11
Speaker
Because it's like people will ask me a question sometimes. It'll be a beat, and then another beat, and then maybe three or four. And there's no expression on my face, but I've kind of gone away. There's a deadness to my eyes. And it drives people nuts because they can't tell what's happening. And I can't give them any information about it. There's no partial process.
00:11:39
Speaker
for me in the vast majority of my work. So like what I do, so I feed it, right? I do my research and I do like my background. I sort of feed my brain everything I think it needs about a topic.
00:12:01
Speaker
And then sometimes I've gotten a little bit better about kind of getting to like a skeleton outline. And then I put it down completely. And if you were to ask me if I was thinking about my work, I would say yes, but I would not have any thoughts to share with you. And I go to a very quiet place in my psyche and then seemingly all at once,
00:12:29
Speaker
I will have entire paragraphs. I mean, I'll just sort of know that I can write it.
00:12:38
Speaker
And I'll wake up the next morning and just sit down and start writing. And if I do have specific thoughts, I won't need to write it down. It will be, it will become a part of my fundamental knowledge base in my brain. It won't be fleeting.
Ruby's Book Projects
00:12:55
Speaker
It will be a truth that I can recognize and access again.
00:13:01
Speaker
It's fundamentally different than I think a lot of people go about it. And it's great to hear you sort of work through that and that it is, it's very, I don't know, it feels more energy or instinctually driven, if that makes any sense. Absolutely. That's how it feels. And I mean, that's also a lot of how I learn. I tell this story a lot.
00:13:23
Speaker
at sort of events and especially like when I do library events, you know, when I didn't learn how to read until the second grade. And I mean, I couldn't read at all. And I could, but I could, I could like recite the phonetics rules. I could talk about how to read. I could tell you, you know, like I could explain to other kids how to read and I could do the alphabet and I could do math and I could not read at all.
00:13:52
Speaker
And this was, you know, like there was like parent-teacher conferences about this. This is in the 80s, you know, like this, I was way behind. And I went to a school where I had the same teacher for first, we had combined grades for first and second grade. So she was gonna get me again the next year. And it was a super progressive place, a really, really wonderful school. And she said, you know, she can't read.
00:14:20
Speaker
And I'm not worried about it because she's bright and she's engaged and she's interested in reading. And my sense is that she's waiting for something.
00:14:31
Speaker
And so she was like, just, I don't know, read to her a lot and have her be around books. And my dad, my dad started taking me to the beautiful downtown library in Portland regularly as a special treat on a weeknight all by myself to go into this massive
00:14:50
Speaker
library and he would leave me alone in the children's library to wander at a time of day when there weren't other kids there. I had this whole massive library to myself and we did that for many months and I woke up one morning and read Little Women.
00:15:10
Speaker
Just like out of the out of the blue. That was the first thing I read. I read the whole book. I stayed in bed. I mean, everybody in my family remembers. And that's how I write, is I sort of like percolate and then it kind of comes out as a whole thing.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's like the big swell of a tsunami is really under the ocean until it finally spills out on the shore, right? Yeah, and it's really particular to language. I did something similar in college.
00:15:47
Speaker
with Spanish. I had taken Spanish for four years in high school and it was the only thing that I got season. I mean, I just, gosh, I struggled. I could not do it. It was mystifying to me. And I continued to take it for some reason,
Writing as Ministry and Resilience
00:16:04
Speaker
even though I was so bad at it.
00:16:07
Speaker
You know, my dad spoke seven languages. So languages were easy for him. Everybody in my family spoke extra languages. So I just sort of persevered and I woke up one day and walked into this intermediate Spanish class and could speak Spanish to the point that people in the class were like, have you been putting us on because it's completely different? And I was like, yeah, I've done this before. I don't know. It's like the light bulb went on.
00:16:36
Speaker
I have no explanation for it, but it's happened several times. And it's interesting that it seems to be both learning around language and the crafting of language that I'm processing at some place in my mind that I don't have access to. And I have to kind of wait until the whole picture is there.
00:16:57
Speaker
Now you shared with me that this year you wrote two proposals, five grants, an entire book that'll come out next year. Several essays, landed an agent, and yet you're more frustrated than ever. So kind of take me through with this. Let's unpack that a little bit. And Ground Truth was a finalist for an Oregon Book Award, and I'm still frustrated.
00:17:21
Speaker
Wow. I didn't realize that about Ground Truth. Well deserved. I just didn't know that. Oh, that's yeah. So yeah, it sounds like an incredibly productive year as a writer. Like that's objectively productive and landing your that I think you've been unagented like you're for all your other work if I'm not mistaken and now you've got an agent. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah. So why why are you frustrated?
00:17:49
Speaker
Well, it was frustrating to launch two books in a pandemic and to kind of lose that moment. I think that especially because Ground Truth ended up being recognized as something worth reading by Oregon Literary Arts, by the Oregon Book Awards, I felt like it really missed its audience, even though it spoke
00:18:16
Speaker
kind of directly to the moment. And so that was frustrating for me that a lot of the messages that I had in Ground Truth, I felt like were really necessary and what people needed. And to feel like I couldn't kind of get that out at that time felt frustrating. I talk a lot about catastrophe and time scale and
00:18:43
Speaker
survival and perspective in terms of, you know, scale and time scale. And I think
Writing Community and Handling Criticism
00:18:50
Speaker
that that really spoke to the pandemic moment. So that I had some frustration around
00:18:57
Speaker
that launch, which I think a lot of people did. I think there's a lot of great books that got lost in that spring. The machine of publishing is very frustrating in and of itself. It's very slow moving. I think the process of writing book proposals, to me, it doesn't really energize me. Book proposal writing doesn't make me more excited about my book.
00:19:28
Speaker
Because you're having to sort of parse your work for profit and you're having to the way in which the industry is designed to force you to categorize yourself, the way that they want you to so conveniently place yourself in a familiar place
00:19:49
Speaker
on the bookshelf, that process of comparison titling, being this is like, and to be someone like me who is really my work
00:20:03
Speaker
doesn't conveniently fit a lot of those niches. So for me, having to bend to that is frustrating to me. And then also, gosh, the writing community can be a tough place. The writing community can be a tough place. And I feel like,
00:20:29
Speaker
It is, I feel like that the writing community that I'm exposed to is not as good at reciprocity as other communities that I participate in.
00:20:45
Speaker
And that's in a tangible way and also in, you know, sort of an emotional and psychological way too, you know. So I felt frustrated by that. But I also, you know, like I had some really
00:21:02
Speaker
weird things happen. I did a radio panel where one of the panelists became completely convinced that I had not yet spoken. This is like a senior writer. He was like, Ruby, don't you want to go now? And I was like, man, I just spoke for like six minutes. Oh, man.
00:21:27
Speaker
And he was like, and the sound guy also thought that I had not yet spoken. And the two of them were like having a conversation about me where they were referring to me as Ruby, whatever her name is. And it was just like, it was, there was, there was like, there was something about it that I was like, yeah. I feel like this is because I'm like,
00:21:56
Speaker
the younger woman on the panel. And you know, like, I don't know. So I had some strange things like that happen. I had a well-known, well-respected journalist interview me at length, and then use my interview as an outline for a feature piece.
00:22:26
Speaker
quote me almost verbatim and not credit me or mention my name whatsoever for the piece. Ew. Yeah. You know, I had, um, yeah, I mean, I just, and I had sort of like several of these kinds of things happen where, um,
00:22:57
Speaker
I just sort of thought the same frustrations around the outdoor community that led me to write The Woman's Guide to the Wild, I felt like, oh, here they are in the writing world. This is how it manifests in the writing world. And it made me tired.
00:23:17
Speaker
I can see that being just so tired and demoralizing, like why even put up the fight? Why even proceed or endure in this? There has to be some element of love,
00:23:35
Speaker
of love in there to stand up and put out the work in the face of such demoralizing acts of a community that is devoid of reciprocity in your experience.
00:23:50
Speaker
Right, you know, and I mean, I think it, you know, I mean, that's not to say that I don't have great relationships with writers that, you know, help me and uplift me. And, you know, those definitely exist. But, man, I really had a sensation of sort of, you know, it's like trying to get in the lifeboat and having them kind of thunky on the head with the oars over and over again.
00:24:21
Speaker
I mean, that was sort of my experience. And I mean, still, I grow really weary of predominantly male editors in predominantly environmental writing.
00:24:40
Speaker
coming back saying that they don't see the point of writing that is largely about the recognition of women. I just can't with that as a response. I just can't.
00:25:01
Speaker
You know, so it's just been really interesting also. I mean, and I, you know, I actually got two agents in two different genres within a week of one another. And then, you know, did a bunch of work for one of them and was really excited about it. And then.
00:25:21
Speaker
She jumped ship suddenly on all of her clients, just pulled out of the industry entirely. So I felt like there was kind of a lot of spinning of wheels. And I don't know how much of that is related to pandemic. I had lots and lots of people not be able to follow through.
00:25:40
Speaker
in a year when, you know, I was very productive and I did have books to promote and I was managing to stay motivated and I just needed, you know, people to be there and be solid and to continue to be productive. And for one reason or another, sort of, it all kind of, when push came to shove and it was okay and then you do your piece.
00:26:07
Speaker
That wasn't getting done this year. And I don't know if that's always what I try. You know, I don't take things personally, you know, and I'm more than happy to blame the pandemic, but I am hoping that when, you know.
00:26:21
Speaker
when summer is over, that we will see sort of a new energy to people because I didn't feel like I had, and I didn't feel like my army was strong. You know, Art of War, how strong is your army? This year, I didn't feel, and that made me feel, you know, like that was kind of a hard place to sit in with everything else that was going on. I could have used a really strong army because I felt like
00:26:52
Speaker
I had momentum and I worry about the loss of momentum, even though I'm in this really great place. And I feel like I, you know, I'm like, no, like you still have it, you know, you've got an agent, you've got your proposals, like you've got irons in the fire, but that stall out, I think for me was psychologically hard to take. So in the absence of having a strong army around you this year, where have you found the strength to do the work that you're excited about?
00:27:23
Speaker
I'm like, gosh, I'm really excited about my projects. I got some really great projects going on that I just...
00:27:31
Speaker
I can't imagine not wanting to write these books. And so I think that's been really useful. Also, I did a deep dive into research, which for me is always energizing. I research all day long every day, never grow tired of research. I don't think there's such a thing as too much research. I don't think that you can ever dig deep enough. And so I really...
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I had curiosity and excitement for what I was doing and the time to to do it. And that has sort of like kept me super motivated, just my own excitement and interest and curiosity about my own topics. Don't write a book if you don't if you think you're going to get sick of the topic. Yeah, that's the truth.
00:28:27
Speaker
Can you, without giving away too much, can you share what you're working on? These book projects? Yeah, I can. A little bit, not a whole lot. Yeah, whatever you're comfortable with. Some people are like, you know, I'm working on it. I don't talk about it. Some people are like, yeah, I'm writing a book about rugby. I don't know. But yeah, so I don't know. What are you working on?
00:28:49
Speaker
Well, I have, so I have Wilderness in the American Spirit, which is coming out in fall of 2022. And that is sort of a sister book to ground truth. It's not personal essays. But what I do is I use the Applegate Trail, which is a very little known southern route of the Oregon Trail.
00:29:17
Speaker
and stories about places and people along the Applegate Trail as a long-form analogy for the American relationship to the environment. And I use
00:29:35
Speaker
the analogy of the Applegate Trail as a framework to talk about how we've arrived to this place that we find ourselves now with respect to the environment and also to suggest a way to chart a path forward. So I'm sort of using, I'm sort of, in my mind, I'm building
00:30:03
Speaker
I'm building a trail. I'm blazing that trail as I go. And the stories that I tell about along the trail sort of progress through time. You know, so there's the story of the Applegate's there, of course, you know, like you kind of hit up the Donner party because she's going to skip the Donner party, you know, but there's also a Mouseketeer and there's the Umpqua Community College shooting.
00:30:29
Speaker
And how are these environmental stories? Well, they're issues of the body, and they speak to our value system, and they speak to what's going on in the rest of the country, in the mindset of the people. And so for me, that's just really rich fodder, and I got to do a lot of field work.
00:30:53
Speaker
during the lockdown and go to a lot of places that were really out of the way that people haven't seen. And I feel really excited about exposing all of this history that people really don't know that's so fundamental to the identity of the American people and how that has brought us
00:31:17
Speaker
to where we are now. So that's what I'm working on. It's not actually done yet. I still have a couple of chapters to do. That's the deadline. That's the deadline. I was like, is that the deadline you're avoiding right now? I'm not avoiding it. I'm percolating. That's right.
00:31:36
Speaker
Call back. I love it. Well, because it's true, you know, it's funny because it's true. Yeah, I'm percolating on it in part because I've written myself into current time, you know, and I'm sort of grappling with these end of the 20th century chapters and also with, you know, my charting a path forward. And this summer I struggled with with hope.
00:32:05
Speaker
with, you know, starting on, I think January 6th, 2021, I started to question hope and, you know, I used to work for Greenpeace. I've been doing environmental stuff for 20, 30 years. I used to knock on doors and the things that I used to canvas about for Greenpeace when I was 17 years old have come to pass. What used to be a warning is now a reality and, um,
00:32:35
Speaker
For the very first time as an environmental thinker and activist and writer, I really struggled to find hope. And you can't chart a path forward for people if you don't come from a place of hope. So I spent the summer finding hope. And over the course of writing this project, is that where you found the hope again?
00:33:03
Speaker
I'm still percolating. I'm still percolating. And I think that that's because I am waiting to see what unfolds. I'm not sure that we know what the contours of this moment really are. So I can't write to them. You know, I think that there is an element of waiting and watching and wishing.
00:33:32
Speaker
that I have to do in order to sort of illuminate what things are possible. You can't chart a path forward if you're still deep in the thickets and thrashing around.
00:33:50
Speaker
You know like the experience of being lost in the wilderness Um, you're not ever going to to find yourself which is really you know, if you if you you know or become unlost if you never um calm and Take stock of where you are With the relation, you know, like the process of getting unlost sort of starts with identifying the things around you and recognizing your situation
00:34:20
Speaker
And a lot of people are lost for a long time before they know they're lost. And a lot of people wander randomly before they stop and take notice of where they really are. And I think that that's what I'm doing right now.
00:34:38
Speaker
we're transforming. And I'm curious about what comes next so that I can speak really clearly and directly to where we really are. Because I want my work to be, you know, useful and important to give other people hope and to spur them on to action. So I need to get it right.
00:35:02
Speaker
And a lot is being revealed about the last, especially 20 years, um, and what's really been going on under the surface. And so I'm taking time to, to let that, to soak that in, um, and to make sure that I'm not working from false assumptions. So I'm waiting.
00:35:24
Speaker
So that's, that's wilderness in the American spirit. And then I have a middle grade book that, um, I was, I was sort of brought in to write, um, that's out for submission right now about the international space station. Cool.
00:35:44
Speaker
which I can't say with a straight face because everybody goes, really? And what I have to say to that is space writing is environmental writing. Science writing for middle graders is in all of its forms.
00:35:59
Speaker
Environmental writing science literacy, especially for young people is environmental writing but most importantly I once worked at space camp and Pretty much nothing qualifies you to write books on space more than being that particular kind of geek And and it's an empty spot on the shelf
00:36:25
Speaker
sort of most curious. I have for about six years now been cooking on a true crime story that
00:36:38
Speaker
is just a totally fantastic untold story. And it's local. A lot of the things in the story happen blocks from my house. It's just been a wild ride. It's a different kind of research. It's a kind of deep research that I really enjoy. It is the kind of story where
00:37:05
Speaker
Every, every piece of it, you know, every chapter could be titled, but wait, it gets worse.
00:37:15
Speaker
Well, that's a page turner. I'm super excited about it. It's the only thing I've ever written that I think has really got commercial potential. It is just such a great story and I feel lucky to have stumbled upon it. I'm hopeful that it's going to go. We'll see.
00:37:41
Speaker
Dude, I know you've had a frustrating year, but you've got some amazing projects in the works and in the can and everything. I can't wait to dig into all this amazing stuff that you've been talking about. Kudos for being able to have this kind of year in the face of hopelessness and frustration. I know. I'm really a very cheerful person. Oh, I know.
00:38:09
Speaker
I know every time that we've spoken and the only times we've spoken are on mic. I mean it's a sheer joy to talk to you and you're an energizing person to talk to and I love it. I always leave these conversations wanting more and I love having these conversations with you and it's a
00:38:27
Speaker
But yeah, it doesn't matter. The stakes being what they are, there is a great deal of hopelessness and despair, and certainly the frustration that you've just had to deal with in the publishing world, yeah, it can break anybody down, no matter how optimistic or cheerful you, you know, it can be on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, and I think, you know, but it's a good lesson. Like, it's really important to ask yourself why you write.
00:38:55
Speaker
Mm hmm. You know, I think that's what I was trying to ask you earlier, just like, you know, when you just feel so beaten down, like, what is bringing you back to it? Like, why why keep writing? Why keep doing this in the face of that? Because because none of that matters. That is all the facade of the writing industry.
00:39:17
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? That's writing Twitter. That's the external part of writing. The reality is that I think that I have something to say.
00:39:31
Speaker
And I think that my writing has purpose. I never, once in my life, I still don't wake up and go, I wanna be a writer. What I do is I wake up and I say, I think I have something important or interesting to say. And increasingly, as I've had some small success, I say, I think that people enjoy the way I say it.
00:39:57
Speaker
And I think I have a talent for this. And I think that it's a great privilege to be able to spend the kind of time writing that I get to spend doing this. And and I think that. Under those circumstances, you just keep going, I look, you know, writing is a ministry. Hmm, it's, you know,
00:40:26
Speaker
And for me, it is. It's a walking meditation, and it is a process that I think is important. I think that dialogue is important. I think that education is important. I think science is important. I think women's voices are important. I think women writers are important. And I think the arts are important. So to allow yourself to
00:40:56
Speaker
stop and to back away from that because the game isn't fun.
00:41:05
Speaker
I think is a disservice to yourself, most of all, but also to your potential audience and the people who read your writing. I mean, the most disheartening writing experience I ever had produced by far the most beautiful responses. I wrote a personal essay for Huffington Post and got
00:41:34
Speaker
absolutely trolled just in the worst way by the Christian right. Really vicious, on and on and on, and it was really not pleasant. But I'll tell you what, two years later, I still have people write to me and say, I just found this piece.
00:42:04
Speaker
And thank you for writing it. And here is my story. And let me tell you that essay was about love and me marrying my husband.
00:42:15
Speaker
People did not like that. And I was told that my husband and I are a perfect example of people selfishly marrying for love. And I thought, well, that's the right kind of troll to have. And what the other side of that is, is I could do an entire book of
00:42:38
Speaker
love stories people have sent to me in response to that essay. People have sent me stories about marriages. Your story is our story, but we've been together for 25 years and never told anyone because we were afraid
00:42:56
Speaker
that people would judge us like they're judging you right now, like we see in the comments. And tell me the story of their love, stories of lost love, stories of unrequited love. I have had people write me just because they want to find love.
00:43:13
Speaker
people write to me with their heartache and their celebration of their love, and there is no amount of trolling that could possibly diminish the beauty of someone writing to you and saying, thank you, you have given me hope in love.
00:43:38
Speaker
So you get up and you keep writing, even if you're not making money, even if you launch your book into the void of the pandemic, even if your agent has to bail, even if you have to revise a million times, even if you're going to miss a deadline, even if
00:43:59
Speaker
It's hard, or you don't want to, or you're not getting recognition, or you get cut down by your peers because you are getting recognition. You keep doing it because somewhere out there is someone who needs to hear what you have to say. And if you are authentic and true to yourself and what you do, your work will find that person.
00:44:29
Speaker
He just gave me goosebumps, Ruby. Well, it's true. It's absolutely true. You know, if things have a way, the universe is more elegant than you could ever possibly imagine. And the human mind wants to dictate time scale. And that is just not the way it works.
00:44:57
Speaker
So we press on through storms and pandemics and love and loss because you do not know how things will come to pass.
00:45:13
Speaker
Well, it's so beautifully put, Ruby, and I feel like I could talk to you for another six hours, but I'll cut this off because I know we're going to have several hours' worth of talking in the future when more of your amazing work hits the shelves and so forth.
00:45:32
Speaker
Thank you so much for coming on the show in short notice and for talking about the year you've had and the work you're doing and it's a great inspiration and I just thank you for being you and thank you for your work.
00:45:46
Speaker
Um, thanks for having me. I really, I really appreciate, um, that you provide a platform for authors to talk about craft and for us to learn from one another. I think that it's, um, I think it's good for writers to listen to one another. Great stuff, right? Thank you, Ruby.
00:46:11
Speaker
coming on the show short notice and thanks to West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in creative writing for the support also thanks to all the wonderful Patreons at patreon.com slash CNF pod and I was debating whether to do a parting shot this week or not and I think that might be indication that it's good enough reason not to I have something I feel like saying but I just don't feel like doing it right now and I'll just sit on that and I will say it and
00:46:37
Speaker
next week. It'll be a little closer to the newsletter time. It'll be after the newsletter comes out and it has to do with something I want to put in the newsletter based on experience I had. And so, yes. So next week, parting shot, it'll tether to the newsletter. So if you're not subscribed to the newsletter, come on. Come on now.
00:46:57
Speaker
Alright, I feel like throwing some french fries in the air fryer and sitting in front of the TV and watching some mindless programming. You cool with that? Good. So, as I want to say, stay wild, see ya nevers, and if you can do, interview, see ya!
00:47:26
Speaker
you