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Episode 249: Ximena Vengoechea on Life Audits, Listener Drain, and Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection
143 Plays4 years ago
Ximena Vengochea is the author of Listen Like You Mean It: Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection (Portfolio).
We talk about:
- Life audits
- Listening (duh)
- Interviewing
- And listener drain
Follow the show on social media @CNFPod and consider being a member at patreon.com/cnfpod.
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Transcript
Staying Present Amidst Distractions
00:00:00
Speaker
I mean, just staying present in a conversation I think is hard enough with all of our distractions, but add all those other pieces in. It's a lot of work. It's rewarding, but it is work.
Introducing Jimena Venguecea and Her Book
00:00:16
Speaker
That is Jimena Venguecea. Did I get that right? So my name is Jimena Venguecea.
00:00:25
Speaker
I think it did. This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. Be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Jimenez' new book is Listen Like You Mean It, reclaiming the lost art of true connection.
The Power of True Listening and Connection
00:00:45
Speaker
It is published by Portfolio Penguin. We talk a lot about listening, duh.
00:00:52
Speaker
talking, taking a life audit, he meant leaving her job mid-pandemic, and all kinds of tactics to make you a better listener, which will make you a better person. Looking at you, Steve. I don't know if Steve listens to the show or not. There's got to be one or two Steves, but I bet you're great listeners anyway. I'm just a blanket statement. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Steve.
00:01:20
Speaker
This book made me realize what a shitty listener I am, like real bad. So, throw it on the self-improvement heap of things to do to fix this broken hull. Lots of housekeeping to get to, but why bore you with that right now? So stay tuned to the end of the show for all kinds of news, goodies, riffs. Hmm, speaking of riffs.
Career Shift: From Tech to Writing
00:01:57
Speaker
And I understand that you in November or maybe a little before November, middle pandemic, you left your left your job in a very insecure time and it felt right for you. So maybe you can take us to that that inflection point of why that felt right and where you were career wise and and who you were as a person, so to speak, that made you want to take that kind of risk. Yeah, for sure. So I had been working at Pinterest, I've been working in tech for
00:02:28
Speaker
maybe a decade. And I'd been working at Pinterest for almost five years, maybe four and a half years. And I've been working as a researcher and as a manager. And one of the exciting parts of that job is you're helping other people grow.
00:02:46
Speaker
you're uncovering new insights. So my role specifically for, for those maybe who aren't familiar with it, it's one of the most people centric roles in tech. So, um, the role is really understanding people, how they use products, their needs, their motivations in order to build something that they might actually need, um, and use. And I just got to a point where I kind of felt like I plateaued, like it sort of learned what I needed to learn.
00:03:13
Speaker
I think most people are familiar with this moment of like, but wait, is there more? Um, and I was really, I was feeling that sort of itchiness. Um, and I, I'd felt that in the past and I think in the past that had really precipitated, you know, okay, I'm going to look for a different role, um, or a different company. And this time I think like many people, uh, having, you know, dealt with the reality of the pandemic,
00:03:42
Speaker
I was just completely out of gas. Like I just had nothing left. The idea of looking for a new job was just totally exhausting. And I think part of that was pandemic related. Part of that was also because in addition to my nine to five, there were two other big life events that I was managing at the same time, which was
00:04:03
Speaker
One, I had a baby, so I now have a toddler, but that was a pretty big, thank you, was a pretty big change in set of responsibilities. And the other was that I was writing a book. And, you know, those are kind of a lot of things to be doing at once, right? Writing a book, raising a child, keeping your nine to five, dealing with the stress of the pandemic. So when I sort of allowed myself to feel that exhaustion and that
00:04:33
Speaker
sort of lack of motivation there. I just thought, okay, I'm not going to force myself into something else right now. I feel very fortunate that the tech industry is booming. It's doing very well. There's always going to be a need for researchers. I also felt like part of the part of how I've tried to approach the pandemic with my husband is just thinking about it as this, you know, it's this weird window of time.
00:05:02
Speaker
where nothing makes sense. So rather than try to force some sense making on it, we've both just said, okay, this is sort of a gap year. Like we're not going to treat it the way that we would any ordinary year. And so part of that was we moved to Santa Fe from San Francisco, trying to kind of different lifestyle. I also have family here, so that's been huge. But for me, that also meant, you know, giving these creative,
00:05:30
Speaker
hobbies that I've had for many years, which is writing and illustrating just more of my full attention. I've sort of kept them on the sort of side hustle track for a long time and continuously invested in them. But I wanted to see what would happen if I focused exclusively on that. So it's kind of a confluence of feelings and opportunities coming at once and also just really a desire for a break that kind of led to that.
The Liberating Challenges of Creative Focus
00:06:00
Speaker
Right, and day jobs are very crucial, of course, but sometimes they can be a good way to hide as well. And so when you removed that veil of the nine to five and put your full heft behind writing and illustrating,
00:06:24
Speaker
What was that moment like when it's all of a sudden, oh, it's on the forefront now. It's not this cute little side hustle anymore. It's like the full front hustle. What was that moment like for you? I think the first feeling was liberating because I had been keeping it on the side for so long and because I think anyone who has that side hustle and the nine to five has to
00:06:51
Speaker
balance not only your time in dedicating time to each of those, but also your identity, also possibly certainly something I've had to deal with the sort of politics, for lack of a better word, within your organization of like, hey, you seem to be spending a lot of time on that thing. How does this affect your work? So there's some of that
00:07:14
Speaker
um, those sort of unpleasant conversations that you have to have. But so I think the, the first feeling was liberating. I was like, wow, I don't have to deal with any of that overhead of deciding when to do what or how to rationalize this decision. It was just sort of like I made the decision. So now I'm all in. Um, and I did have a period where I felt intensely inspired where I was, it was kind of just like all the things that had been percolating. It was just like, okay,
00:07:44
Speaker
now it's coming out and that felt really, really good. And then I stopped. Like I think, I think all of the stresses that I had been experiencing that I'd kind of just been going and going and going, like all those, those three big things that I was talking about in terms of balancing all that in the moment. And I've been doing that for two years. I just kind of kept putting one foot in front of the other.
00:08:08
Speaker
and then opening up this space after this intense period of inspiration, suddenly it kind of just dried up and I realized, oh my gosh, oh wow, this is not going to be as easy as I thought it was going to be. And I think that's okay. I'm just trying to be a little bit of, you know, have a little bit of self-compassion for this moment, which I think
00:08:33
Speaker
Anytime you undertake a creative project is can be scary and intimidating and confusing doing that with the pandemic, you know, doubly. So, um, I think there's, there's lots of reasons why it's hard. And, and I'm okay with that right now. I'm just kind of, I'm like, okay, yeah, it's not, it's not going to be as easy. And it is different when you're investing full time in it.
00:08:59
Speaker
For sure, for sure.
Aligning Career with Values: Life Audit Insights
00:09:00
Speaker
And in 2014, you wrote a great medium post about conducting a life audit. And I wonder if you can maybe expand on what that experience was in the 121 sticky notes, and also if maybe extrapolating it from there. I mean, we're talking almost seven years ago.
00:09:22
Speaker
Were the things inside that life audit, are they manifesting themselves with you like now seven, almost seven years later? Yeah. So the life audit was an exercise that I came up with basically to figure out, you know, I kind of, this was a similar sort of career, career change moment where I had hit a point where I knew I didn't really love the role that I was in at the time. I knew I wanted more than it could offer.
00:09:51
Speaker
I had lots of ideas about what I might want to do and I just needed a way to sort of organize my thoughts and also really be honest with myself about whether what I was pursuing was in line with my values, was in line with my passions, was setting me up for some of the things that I really wanted in life. So I put together this exercise inspired by design research techniques. Researchers love sticky notes and kind of
00:10:19
Speaker
synthesizing and brainstorming and putting things into themes and so that's what I did and I wrote a blog post about the experience which really resonated with people because I think a lot of people need or want at certain inflection points some kind of system to help them understand what can sometimes be confusing feelings about hopes and aspirations and goals and how do you make that happen and when do you make that happen
00:10:48
Speaker
And for me, I would say that the results, you know, what came up then, it certainly has held through the things that I was most interested in then remain the same. I've always been interested in writing that was definitely up there. Um, same with illustration. I think there were things like doing more public speaking.
00:11:11
Speaker
Which I've definitely done more of but also things that you know Will just always be true to me like I'm I'm very much a family person and so that came up a lot in different ways and in
00:11:23
Speaker
my personal life audit and that remains to be true. So it has been gratifying kind of going back and seeing even just, you know, now it's been seven years, but even just a few years after I did that exercise, there were little things that were happening along the way. Like I remember one of my wishes around writing was I wanted a piece to go viral and it, and it did, you know, and that wasn't something necessarily that when I was writing, I was thinking,
00:11:52
Speaker
I want this piece to go viral. It was just sort of like, wouldn't it be nice if at some point over the course of my writing, something really resonated so much that I could tell because there was this sort of viral response. And that did happen. And I think another one was writing a book. And many years later, that's also happened. And so for me, it's been less that I've taken each of those sticky notes and said, and now I'm going to write the book.
00:12:20
Speaker
And more, it's just helpful to know that those are things that globally I'd like to do. And then you kind of put your head down and you do the work and you invest, uh, and you try and get better. And then those opportunities come up, you know, I don't think it's so deliberate as like, now I'm going to take on ski note number one, but it is really helpful to know what your sort of North star is.
00:12:47
Speaker
And you said it resonated with people. And so what do you think it is about our culture and this day and age where something of that nature really resonated with people in the first place? I think that people want some sort of direction for their lives as part of it. I mean, I think that's a very human and natural desire is to make sense of why am I here?
00:13:18
Speaker
Like, what am I on this earth for?
The Spark of a Book Idea: A Cold Email Revelation
00:13:20
Speaker
And is that achievable? So I think that's part of it. That's sort of the dreaming part. That's the coming up with all your desires and brainstorming them on stickies. I think that's a pretty human response. But I think part of why
00:13:33
Speaker
the piece resonated was because it was also really actionable. Like, you know, it wasn't just like, hey, dream big and we'll figure it out. Um, you know, it was, and this is a reflection of me. It was systematic. Like I wanted to figure out, okay, where, like, where am I spending my time today? Does that line up with,
00:13:54
Speaker
the things that I say I want. Who am I spending my time with? Is this community, the community that can support me in the goals that I have? And so I think combining the sort of like big picture with the tactical, in some ways I think of it as like very American. It's like, we want the next steps. And I think it did provide that for people. And I think that was part of it. And then the other part, I think that probably resonated is just there, there is a lot of me in that piece.
00:14:25
Speaker
where I'm pretty honest about where I'm at, why I'm doing this exercise, what some of my results are. And I think that that's relatable because so many people are experiencing some version of that. And there's something about reading somebody else's story that I think can kind of
00:14:44
Speaker
help you feel like, okay, I'm not alone in this. Like somebody else feels this too. And by the way, I wasn't thinking about any of this when I wrote it. It was really just, I did this exercise and then I thought it could be helpful to other people. And so I just wanted to share the process. But if I had to think about what made it resonate, I think some of what I just said was probably part of it.
00:15:07
Speaker
Well, it kind of it stems from empathy, which is a very core tenet of of your book and having that empathic worldview of OK, yeah, this is something that is centered on me, but it but it really is. It is looking outward and like this is I see you and this is how I think I might be able to help you. But I'm the vector for that help in this instance.
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I would say that's generally the motivator behind anything I write is, can this be helpful for someone else?
00:15:44
Speaker
Most of what I write comes from my life experience or, you know, those around me in some way, but it's, it's always tied to a lesson. You know, it's like, okay, I've learned something about how to handle our particular situation, or there's a set of skills, or there's a technique or exercise that I found useful that I think other people will find useful too. And that's really the driving motivator. And then I try to,
00:16:12
Speaker
also leave enough space for readers to personalize it themselves. And that's something that in the book, the way that I do that is I have all of these exercises where readers can sort of self-reflect and think about themselves as listeners and kind of customize some of the advice that's given in the book.
00:16:35
Speaker
And speaking of the book, I understand it stemmed from a cold email that you received from Layla Campoli three years ago. So maybe you can take us to that moment and what that was and the Tinder under which or the Tinder from which the book stemmed after that email.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah. So I had that outreach, yeah, several years ago. And at the time I was just really flattered that anyone thought I might have a book in me. Um, and we spent some time tossing around some ideas. Um, I guess first actually, I should say the first time she reached out, I, I said like, thank you so much. I can't take this on right now. Um, I was super invested in, in my nine to five and, um,
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, just the timing wasn't right, even though I was really excited about the opportunity. And it wasn't until a few years later when I felt like my career had kind of hit a point where I just had more mental space for other things.
00:17:40
Speaker
Um, that I, I reached back out and said, okay, I think I'm ready now. Um, anything that's important just to say that, like, just because there's an opportunity doesn't mean that, you know, you grab it right away. Um, I feel very lucky that, that I had that chance and that also I could come back to it, but I think it was the right move because when I did come back to it, I had so much more energy.
00:18:01
Speaker
for the project, even just figuring out, okay, what is it that I want to write about? I had, you know, half a dozen ideas that I could potentially have written about. And really the topic of listening was the one that I kept coming back to. So probably maybe a decade ago, I wrote a piece on listening on LinkedIn and it was sort of a, you know, top tips to be a better listener.
00:18:29
Speaker
And I had written it at the beginning of my career as a user researcher when I was beginning to see that the techniques that we learned as researchers had asked good questions, how to create the space for someone else to say what you can kind of sense they need to say, how to dig deeper past the surface and get to the more emotional level of things. I had just started observing how easily
00:18:54
Speaker
Or productively they could be applied in the real world those techniques and so I wrote this piece and it did really well and then I kind of forgot about it and went back to work and so years later when we started tossing around ideas that idea around listening still felt very present to me and I would say felt even more relevant probably because We're living in this
00:19:22
Speaker
complicated cultural moment with lots of political divisiveness. And I mean, now with the pandemic, there's also geographic, you know, social distancing, all these, all these factors that have kind of come into play in the last five or so years that it just made it feel that much more present for me because I felt like a lot of people are lonely. A lot of people feel pretty disconnected
00:19:49
Speaker
Pretty alienated from one another and I my my belief is that listening can help bridge some of that and through the book proposal Process I actually learned just how very much I had to say about the topic And that was a really good sign for me that there was something there What do you think most people are getting wrong when it comes to listening?
Debunking Listening Misconceptions
00:20:15
Speaker
I think most people think they're listening when they are not. I think most of us spend our time in what I would call surface listening, where you're sort of, you hear enough of what's happening to stay polite in conversation, to nod and smile, to, you know, you get enough, but you don't necessarily get what's happening for the other person in the conversation.
00:20:16
Speaker
I
00:20:43
Speaker
We just sort of like catch the literal. We don't catch the meaning, the subtext. Sometimes we do, but we certainly don't catch the emotional level of what's happening for the other person and how we can learn something about the other person in the process. So I think that's probably the biggest thing is we're often not listening as intently or with as much focus as we think we are.
00:21:13
Speaker
I mean, I think it's very common, for instance, to be winding up what you want to say next. So you're not actually hearing the other person because you are already thinking of your own response, or you're thinking about, oh, I have this meeting I'm going to, or that set of chores. There's lots of things that come up in your mind to distract you. And then there's also just a different level of intentionality, I think, that is often missing too.
00:21:41
Speaker
So much of what you wrote about, you made me realize how deficient I am in listening. And I'm someone who thought I was a decent listener and an asker of questions. And I was reading how you go about synthesizing the questions that you did for your job and the way to in fact be a better listener. I was just like, wow, I'm like,
00:22:09
Speaker
have 50% there. Which was a bit of a shock and also made me really nervous to speak with you because interviewing interviewers is always tough because you always kind of know the game and you're always trying to
00:22:24
Speaker
I don't know, just ask the right thing, ask questions that are interesting to the person who is very used to asking questions. So in preparing for this, it was very, you know, not stressful, but it was like, OK, like this is you got to really kind of ratchet up the game here. But I wonder, too, as you were developing your chops as a user researcher and trying to get
00:22:53
Speaker
Below the surface to the emotions behind a lot of that surface listening Getting burrowing underneath, you know, how did you develop that voice in those chops? So you were adequately Pardon the term like fracking for the right information Yeah, it's a lot of practice. I mean it doesn't it doesn't necessarily happen right away and I'm sure that my first interviews and
00:23:20
Speaker
were rubbish, you know, because, and I think, especially in, you know, when you're first doing this kind of thing, and this, I think, goes for interviewing more broadly, and even trying to bring this into your day-to-day conversation, when you start to learn a new skill, like, you know, what kinds of questions should I ask, or, okay, I need to remember to reflect back what I've heard, right? It can, it can feel like a checklist.
00:23:49
Speaker
It can feel like these are the set of steps that I need to take. If I don't take these, I'm doing it wrong. And really, what I offer in the book are starting points for you to customize in your experience. But I do distinctly remember, in the beginning of my career as a researcher, you would learn these best practices around how to structure your moderator's guide.
00:24:15
Speaker
um, how to write good questions and what to look for in conversation. And if you get too stuck on each of those in the conversation, then again, you can't hear what the person is saying because you're thinking about, okay, now we need to ask this question next. And then I need to ask this question and oh, okay. What, how much time do I have left here? Okay. So I need to move this conversation along. That's a,
00:24:41
Speaker
That's a huge, loud inner monologue happening at the same time. You're supposed to be listening and observing and getting a sense of who this person is. And so I think having a little bit of faith in yourself actually goes a long way and trusting that you'll remember. And I think that goes for ordinary conversations too. Sometimes we hear something someone says
00:25:12
Speaker
We're like, ah, that's so smart. I want to make a note of it. Or, oh, that reminds me of this other idea that I have that I don't want to forget. And so we end up holding on to those things in conversation. And I found that actually the important things tend to naturally stick with you. So you don't actually have to work so hard to cling to them. You can just kind of let them go. And if it's really important,
00:25:37
Speaker
it will probably come back. And when you're able to trust yourself in that way, it gives you a sense of calm. It helps you to stay present and ultimately, again, listen and really take in what the other person is saying.
00:25:57
Speaker
Like you were touching upon it earlier where people are really, they're, they're queuing up what they want to say before they're not really engaged. They're just like, okay, I, they said something that kind of triggered something to me. All right, I need to wait for them to finish talking so I can say what I want to say. So it ends up being more like very, very tennis like.
00:26:16
Speaker
And it strikes me as another sport analogy, maybe the best way to think about it is more like playing, playing catch where the ball comes across and you catch it. And there's at least a moment's pause where you have to hold on to the thing before you even consider throwing it back. So it actually gives you a sense of, okay, I'm going to sit with what they're saying, what they are throwing my way for a little while longer. And then, and then toss the ball.
00:26:41
Speaker
toss the ball back as it were. And maybe we just feel like we have to fill up every single space with sound so we don't have time to internalize, otherwise the other person can get bored or something. And so we're just in such a rush to fill the space. And we're not really sitting with making the other person feel heard or feel seen. I think that's totally right. I think there is, and I like the analogy that you mentioned, because there is a little bit of
00:27:12
Speaker
we often don't take that beat to just sit with what the other person said or to unpack it or to ask what else or say more. We often just kind of jump ahead. And that's a very different conversation. And I think silence is also something that, it's funny, in most conversations, I think people would say, if there's a silence,
00:27:43
Speaker
We call that an awkward silence, right? Like, ooh, awkward silence. I guess we've run out of things to say or we're not hitting it off. And in research, you actually learn that silence is a gift because when someone is silent and you can sit with that silence, generally what happens is the person opens up in some way or you learn something in some way because it's not always that they're bored.
00:28:10
Speaker
uh, they might just still be processing and internalizing something, um, or gearing up to share something, but we often don't give people a chance to do that. And so by being a little bit patient and, and frankly, sometimes a little bit uncomfortable, I think we, we stretch in that way where we're able to give them that space and sit with our own discomfort and
00:28:38
Speaker
Generally, something really rewarding comes out of that. We can learn something from the other person and about the other person. Yeah, you write early in the book that you learn to get comfortable with discomfort, and that's so key. How long did that take you to develop that and to sit in that silence and let the silence do some of the heavy lifting for you?
00:29:02
Speaker
Oh boy, I'm sure I was uncomfortable with it immediately because I am definitely a person who always has something to say. I think that part of that is just growing up with three sisters where you just, you know, if you want to be heard, you better speak up. So it might've been harder for me more so than it would be for other people.
00:29:25
Speaker
But in a research session, the stakes are pretty high because if you interrupt someone or if you try and move things along, you potentially lose out on insights and data that you might never get back again. The moment is gone and that's costly. And so you learn pretty quickly that you have to kind of sit back and
00:29:50
Speaker
you know, in my case, I might count to 10 and most people will not even let you get to 10 seconds before they, they jump in. Um, or I might sit on my hands, like literally create a physical restriction to kind of get myself, remind myself, Nope, don't say anything yet. Don't say anything. Um, and it's not just in sessions either. I found actually that in
00:30:15
Speaker
conversations, particularly, you know, as a manager with my direct reports or something like that. If there was something where I was itching to, let's say, provide a solution or offer advice, I would just remind myself like, nope, just give them a beat. They might have it already, right? They might need something different than what you think they need. And I think just reminding yourself
00:30:39
Speaker
of that and being open to the possibility that the best thing that you can do might be to say nothing can be pretty motivating.
00:30:50
Speaker
And I've found, listening to a lot of podcasts over the years, that there is a difference between someone who can ask good questions and someone who is actually a good interviewer. Does that make any sense to you that there is a dichotomy between the two, that you can ask good questions but be a lousy asker of questions, if that makes any sense?
00:31:19
Speaker
Yes. And I don't know if this is how you're thinking about it, but at least the way I would think about it is that you can have great questions and then ask them and they can still end in dead ends. Or you can ask great questions and be so present that you're pivoting. Maybe you're changing the order of your questions. Maybe you're tossing questions out along the way or going deeper, but you're moving together with
00:31:48
Speaker
the other person, as opposed to being like a literal asker of questions, right? There's a difference, I guess, between an interrogation and a conversation. And I think that's how I at least read some of what you're saying as that distinction.
00:32:06
Speaker
For sure. There's that conversational aspect. And I also feel that a lot of people, they'll ask a question and then they backload it with a lot of information that essentially answers the question for the guest. And then they just ask another question by the time they've already heard themselves speak. And it's just like, why don't you just ask the question and get out of the way or front load whatever information you want. Ask the question, get out of the way.
00:32:34
Speaker
so many times, hosts just can't get out of their own way. And to me, as someone who does this very frequently, it lands on my ear like nails on a chalkboard. And I wonder if that's something for you, because I imagine asking questions. There might have been, or maybe there is sometimes a tendency to
00:32:58
Speaker
partially answer it for them and then kind of lead the witness. But you have to learn how to just ask and get out of the way. Is that something you've sort of danced with before? Absolutely. I think it's a very human instinct to try and flesh out, you know, a little bit like what you're trying to get at along the way instead of just to ask the question straightforwardly. And often when we do that, we bake into the question our own assumptions or beliefs.
00:33:27
Speaker
And so instead of just asking someone, oh, what was it like when you had such and such an experience? We'll start to fill it in and say, well, what was that like? Was it like this? Was it like that? I can imagine this. And then before you know it, we've given them four different options for what that might have been like.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I think my training as a researcher has really taught me that that is not helpful. Even though that's a natural instinct, it's not helpful because it puts guardrails in place for the person. So instead of just leaving it open-ended and saying, tell me about your experience, I'm already telling you the boundaries of what I think your experience is.
00:34:16
Speaker
Some people will correct you and they'll say, well, it's not quite like that, but it is like this. And some people won't and they'll just, and they're not necessarily thinking about this. This is just, you're, you're kind of instinctively responding and saying, Oh, the part that they're most interested in is this. So I'm not going to talk about this other part, which is actually what I'm most interested in. Um, and so you end up getting biased responses or just possibly not as interesting.
00:34:45
Speaker
responses because you've already put those guardrails in place. Right, and then you cite a great tactic, if you will, that Ira Glass uses to get people to kind of, I don't know, at least choose a fork in the road and run with something. And this is, it's really sneaky, but it's really good. And you cite him as saying, he theorizes, well, is it more like this or is it like this? I can imagine it would be this way or this way. What is it?
00:35:13
Speaker
And it gets them it's like choose which one or maybe there's a third option. But, you know, what about that resonated with you as a way to get people to open up? Yeah, I mean, I think this is the these are all different techniques for helping people open up that you can kind of use at different points of a conversation. I like to start pretty broad where I'm leaving it very open ended to see where that person will go.
00:35:41
Speaker
But of course, at a certain point, I think of interviewing as a little bit of a funnel. You're starting broad and then you're getting narrow. And the same can be said in certain types of conversations. You start broad and then progressively you're getting narrow because if you keep everything broad, it's a little bit disorienting. You're not necessarily going to get as deep as you'd like. So you do have to start to follow up and get a little bit narrower along the way. And I loved Ira Glass's technique because
00:36:11
Speaker
it's exactly that for that narrowing in phase where you've maybe established some of the high level about what was this person's experience like. Maybe they gave a sort of vague response or a response that kind of indicated there might be more to the story. And then that's when you can come in with this sort of like, well, okay, I could see it being this way or that way. Which one was it? And in some cases,
00:36:38
Speaker
Particularly when someone is either reluctant to share more or just sort of still kind of figuring out how they feel about a thing, when you give people a set of options, it can be really helpful because even if we don't know,
00:36:55
Speaker
necessarily what our response is, we often know what it's not. And so if someone says, well, was it like this or like that? You might have a strong reaction and say, oh, well, it was definitely not like that. And that helps formulate the true response there. And so I think it's a great technique for when you're narrowing in, you're getting a little bit deeper in conversation. And you can sense the other person maybe needs a nudge or you want to continue to focus the conversation
00:37:26
Speaker
And that's where that sort of either or really helps. And a lot of people who listen to this show, the writing memoir or personal essay, and it can be very challenging to crack open a reticent or non-forthcoming family member and interviewing them, try to get information about their past, questions of which, when you ask about the past, can come across as very judgmental about their parenting or anything in the past.
00:37:54
Speaker
So what counsel might you give someone who's in that position of doing that kind of personal research and personal interviewing of people very close to them? Yes, that's tough. But I think there are things that you can do to help manage that situation. The first
00:38:14
Speaker
I would say is checking in with yourself before you even go into it, because especially when you're close to the person or have some sort of emotional connection to the person, just thinking about just playing out a couple of the options of if there are topics that are difficult for you to talk about, um, or places that you're a little bit concerned about, you know, going there, but you probably have to, and just being aware of like, okay, these are the three things that could set me off in conversation.
00:38:44
Speaker
Because with that awareness, if it happens in the moment, then you can kind of observe it, name it, say, okay, this is, you know, I'm feeling my heart is starting to race. This is probably because we touched on this topic. So I neither either need to take a time out or just be aware that that's occurring for me. Because I think sometimes we forget that we are very present in the conversation. When we're interviewing someone else, it's not just,
00:39:12
Speaker
What are they saying? It's also what are we bringing into the conversation? So particularly when there's a relationship, a close relationship in place, just knowing that about yourself, I think can be really helpful. The other is setting the stage for the other person and letting them know exactly what's going to happen. And even saying, you know, I have some questions that might be hard to answer, but please know that my intent is not to
00:39:42
Speaker
make you feel uncomfortable or, you know, to force you to go somewhere you don't want to go. Like my intent is really to understand you and how you experience this or, you know, whatever it is that you're, you're trying to get at. Because I think even though we know that we have good intent, again, especially, and this is, this is not even, you know, this is true. I think even with strangers, you know, when I've had to talk about really personal subjects with,
00:40:10
Speaker
people who I've never met before as part of a research study. I definitely give that caveat too, and it's especially heightened when you do know the person. So I think those are two things. And the last thing I would say is during the course of the interview, especially if you have someone who's reluctant to respond or is just not giving you as much as you would hope for.
00:40:33
Speaker
I think being strategic about asking questions that don't sound like questions and giving gentle nudges can be really helpful rather than kind of bulldozing through. And I think, you know, one technique if someone's not giving you an answer is you just ask the question another way and you do that again and again and again until you get something that you're satisfied with.
00:40:56
Speaker
Um, which sometimes works, but sometimes can feel a little bit like bullying to the other person where it's sort of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. I get it. You really want the answer to this. Fine. Um, which is maybe not the best dynamic for an interview. So I would suggest instead thinking about ways to make your question smaller.
00:41:18
Speaker
And less intimidating and sometimes that can mean just following up on let's say they give you a response and it's not really satisfying to you and you want to know more literally just saying I'll say more about that or tell me more or what else they're very small follow-ups the one I like the most actually is because and you know someone will say something and then I'll say because or that's because you felt that way because I
00:41:47
Speaker
or just the word because, and it's very natural for people to fill that in as a sentence and say, well, because I was dealing with such and such thing or whatever it may be. So I think when you have somebody who's kind of holding back and you can feel that, trying to dial down the interviewer dynamic a little bit can be helpful there and making your question smaller.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, and you write to how even though your intentions might be good, if you ask a why question, it can come across as very judgmental. But if you can come at it from the side by saying maybe phrasing it as a how or a what, then it can buff some of the sharpness of what you're ultimately trying to get at, even though you might have great intentions by asking why.
00:42:40
Speaker
why does come across as very judgmental and pointed and that can put people's hackles up. Yeah, exactly. There's something about why where it just feels like, well, why did you do that? Why did you make that decision? Um, yeah, it feels a little bit sharp in a way that just saying, Oh, how did you, how did you come up with that, you know, decision or what made you, um, do that? It just sounds,
00:43:07
Speaker
It sounds different to our ears, even though we're really getting at the same thing. Yeah. Like instead of like, why did you make that decision? Like, or like, how did you process that moment in your life sounds so much softer. I'm like, Oh yeah, like I can, your answer is effectively going to be the same thing, but one sounds way more like mean and like you're being cross-examined by a prosecutor or something where the other one's just like, Oh yeah, this is kind of something cool we're talking about over coffee.
00:43:35
Speaker
Exactly. And I think, you know, part of the goal is making the other person comfortable. You never want it to feel like an interrogation. You want it to feel like a conversation. Ultimately, that's what it is, right? So those are some small ways of kind of setting the stage.
00:43:54
Speaker
And I love the section in the book to where you talk about like takers versus energizers.
Balancing Draining and Energizing Relationships
00:44:00
Speaker
And I wonder if maybe you could elaborate on what those are and how best to navigate the landscape of the two types. Yes. So I think this is really important, particularly, you know, I think if
00:44:14
Speaker
If you're someone who picks up the book, you have a natural interest in listening and getting to know other people. And there's probably, um, a natural empathy within you, you know, to, to do that. And so I think it would be really easy to say, okay, well I'm going to listen and give it my all. And, um, and that's, that's that, right? Like I'm going to focus exclusively on the other person, but the truth is like, we all need,
00:44:41
Speaker
some reciprocal connection. It's not just about sort of being what I call a listening martyr where you're just giving yourself over to the other person and you're just like, okay, I am here. I'm a vessel for you and whatever you need to get off your chest. That's not the point that I think is not entirely healthy. And so in the book I talk about being aware of the relationships in your lives and
00:45:06
Speaker
There are these people who I call takers who they just take a little bit more than they give in conversation. And so maybe they vent a lot or they monologue a lot. They never really give you a word in edgewise. That can be really difficult to be on the receiving end of that. And it's not to say that this group of people is bad. By the way, we're probably all takers in
00:45:31
Speaker
some of our relationships or in some of our conversations, or if we've had a bad day, we're just not as in tune with the other person. So it's okay. The important part, I think, is to have a balance in your life of people who, okay, those conversations tend to be a little bit draining, but you also have these energizers in your life who the conversation is enriching, is inspiring, is equitable, feels supportive,
00:46:00
Speaker
And making sure that you have both of those in your lives and are finding that balance I think is really important so that you don't kind of turn into this just like listening doormat where you're there for other people but no one is there for you.
00:46:18
Speaker
And how can we be sure that when we're around people who energize us, these people that just fill up our cup, that we don't inadvertently become the takers we're trying to avoid? Yeah, I think part of it is being aware and grateful when you identify those people because I think
00:46:43
Speaker
If you stop and think about it, we can probably all think of at least a handful of people in our lives who fit that category. Um, and just being sure to share it back, right? Um, that feeling that they give you where you feel like I feel so refreshed after this conversation, wanting to give that back and making sure that you're kind of passing the baton back in conversation.
00:47:08
Speaker
If you find yourself, for instance, suddenly getting really thirsty in conversation because you're talking so much, maybe that's a good sign to toss it back to the other person. But just being aware, I think, and checking in and expressing that gratitude. And, you know, I talk about this idea of a listening loop where when one person feels safe enough with the other, they can be vulnerable because they feel
00:47:36
Speaker
understood and seen. And then that creates more understanding for the listener who continues to get to know that person, which then reinforces that willingness to be vulnerable. And so it just creates this nice cycle of trust that's getting built there. And I think what's important there is that it's getting built for both people. So it's not just, I feel better and I can share everything with you.
00:48:02
Speaker
It's, I feel great, you're creating this space for me. I can share something with you. That makes me more invested in you too. Like I want to, I want to give that back to you. I want to get to know what's happening for you as well. And so I think just, you know, with those energizers in your lives, making sure that that loop is in play and moving in both directions from person to person.
Active Listening and the Need for Self-Care
00:48:26
Speaker
And I love towards the end of the book, you talk about recovery and listener drain. I feel this hard. I can usually I can only record maybe one podcast a day. You know, these take a lot out of me for the same reasons that you that you write about. That is just you know, you try to listen very hard and it is it is
00:48:49
Speaker
it in the best possible way it is very that intense focus it takes is very draining and you and you write that you say like every single time you feel like you have a head cold when you're done you know having these kind of conversations so um you know how important was it for you to write about listeners drain and the recovery that it takes to actually become be a good uh be a good listener it was so important to me i mean i think
00:49:15
Speaker
you know, without that chapter, I felt like I was worried that the message would be go forth, listen, and you know, just charge through if you're tired, right? Like, I just felt like it had to be addressed because it's such a real feeling. And I think, you know, this is where it does feel like a sport. It's like you're working really hard. When you're really intently listening,
00:49:42
Speaker
You're using your ears, you're using your eyes, you're observing what's happening. You're taking all this information in at once. You're synthesizing it as you go. You're reflecting back and making sure you understand. You're asking questions. I mean, just staying present in a conversation I think is hard enough with all of our distractions, but add all those other pieces in. It's a lot of work. It's rewarding, but it is work. And it felt really important to
00:50:11
Speaker
acknowledge that and say, Hey, you might feel tired and that's a sign that you're doing it right. But also you have to take care of yourself because I don't want people to kind of fall into that listening martyr camp where they just say, okay, I'm here to listen. Like,
00:50:29
Speaker
take what I've got here and I'll just suffer the consequences. That would be such a horrible outcome. I want people to walk away feeling like they have the information they need to be able to put
00:50:46
Speaker
these listening tips into practice, but that they also are taking care of themselves and being aware of, you know, how they feel physically after a conversation, how they feel emotionally. All of these things can be draining and require some attention. Because if we don't take care of ourselves, we can't feel that connected to other people. And we certainly can't be the listeners that we're trying to be, right? It's sort of like,
00:51:14
Speaker
it's somewhat self-defeating to try and trudge through because you're just not in a position where you can make those connections. So to me, it was one of the most fun chapters to write because I felt so passionately of like, you need to take care of yourself. Don't go too far. That I really wanted to leave readers with something, you know, kind of reminder of, hey, like,
00:51:40
Speaker
your role is important here, you are important here, and there's ways to take care of yourself. Well, the book is excellent on first read, and I read it really fast. And it's definitely a book that I think will bear more fruit, maybe the second or third time you read it, because there's so much we can really learn from it. And every one of us can become a better listener, and even probably especially the people who think they're good listeners can benefit from reading this, because it's going to open their eyes and be like,
00:52:09
Speaker
Oh man, I was, I was pretty bad at this and I thought it was pretty damn good. So, um, so I'm going to just leave you on this and just say, you know, thank you so much for the work, Jimena. And, um, you know, where can people find you online and get more familiar with, uh, what you're up to these days? Yeah, thank you. Um, yep. So I'm on Twitter and, um, all the major social media sites. I think if you're interested in learning more, I would say my website is a great place to start. Jimena Venguecea.com.
00:52:38
Speaker
slash listen like you mean it for the book in particular. And then I also have a newsletter if you're interested in things like creativity and technology and kind of that balance, which is humana.substack.com. Awesome. That was great talking to you, Imana. Thank you so much.
00:53:06
Speaker
Would you think that introduction was super short, am I right? But now we're at the end of the show where no one listens. Anyway, are you right? Are you okay? You dig? You digging, manna? I like that. That was cool. That was fun. Thanks to you kind listener. Amazing listener. Kind listener.
00:53:26
Speaker
And thanks to Jimena. Go check out that book. I'd say of the several self-healthy kind of books I've read this year, Annie Duke's How to Decide, Seth Godin's The Practice, and Jimena's are atop that list. They are more
00:53:44
Speaker
tactical and they don't assume that you're just some sort of broken person that needs fixing I think it's just really really good skills they're good skill building books when we build skills we're more value to the people around us so hey I got a nice pile of submissions for the summer issue of the audio magazine the deadline was last week we are into the spring so now I'm gonna
00:54:09
Speaker
Start reading these pieces now it's time for me to get off my lazy ass and get to work if you want to listen to the audio magazine issue 2 and Beyond you're gonna need to be a member at the patreon page. I hate to break it to you Every tear gets you a subscription to this audio magazine patreon.com slash CNF pod shop around there's some cool goodies and perks hiding in those tears and
00:54:39
Speaker
T-I-E-R-S. If you leave a kind review on Apple Podcasts, I'll edit a piece of your work of up to 2,000 words. When the review posts, take the screenshot, email it to creativenonfictionpodcast.gmail.com and we'll start a dialogue. It's a good audition for you in case you want to have me work with you on a more ambitious project. It's been known to happen a few times actually, no lie.
00:55:07
Speaker
Do I have any news of any kind to share? Well, nothing really exciting. But if you head over to BrendanOmero.com, you'll be able to get the newsletter. But I started really beefing up the right rail of the website.
00:55:20
Speaker
scroll there and you'll see an algorithm-free blog roll of people I like to read. It's a news stand of sorts so I don't have to troll social media. I can really pull back from that whole morass and so I've got a list of things there. I don't want to add to it but it's a way to
00:55:39
Speaker
go there and not have to be on social media to find the things I like. I'm also featuring several episodes of the podcast by subgenre, so CNF and filmmakers, CNF and memoir, so you can select the CNF or you want to listen to by subgenre, so check that out. It won't have every one, every single episode, but if you want to fix from someone writing essay,
00:56:07
Speaker
Boom. There's Elena Pasarello. Memoir. Boom. There's Lee Goodkind. Poetry? Boom. There's Jericho Brown. Long Form Journalism? Boom. There's Patrick Radd and Keith. Aside from that, I can't think of any other reason to distract you and hold your attention any longer.
00:56:28
Speaker
If you want to keep the conversation going, by all means, I do hang out periodically on Instagram and Twitter at CNF pod. Oh, I was recently on the writers downtown writers jam podcast with Brad King. He's really good. He's got such a great happy hour quality.
00:56:44
Speaker
to the way he conducts a podcast. And we recorded that back in December and it just ran. We talked primarily, I guess he said we only talked about baseball and horse racing for 40 minutes and it's a little, it's almost a 90 minute episode. I swear we talked about that the whole time and I was like, oh my God, am I boring everybody? And I'm sure I do to some extent, but maybe some of you will want to check it out. He's got a great show and I was on it. Episode 124. So go check that out. That's news. I didn't even think that just popped in my head.
00:57:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. All right, linking up to the show across your various networks helps grow the community. So you know, if you have a CNF-er in your life that you would think would dig this enterprise, pass it along. Why not? And if there's anything I can do to make the show better, you just call me, okay? So stay cool, CNF-ers. Stay cool forever. See ya.
00:58:26
Speaker
you