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Episode 307: Greg Brennecka
221 Plays3 years ago
Greg Brennecka is a cosmochemist and studies meteors. He is the auhthor of Impact: How Rocks from Space Led to Life, Culture, and Donkey Kong (William Morrow, 2022).
Social: @CNFPod
Support: patreon.com/cnfpod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Brendan's Writing Coach Services
00:00:00
Speaker
ACNFers, if you're looking to get into shape to hold yourself accountable, you might hire a personal trainer. Likewise, if your writing needs a spotter, consider letting me help you out. If you're working on a book, an essay, a query, or a book proposal, and you're ready to level up, consider emailing me, Brendan, at BrendanOmera.com, and we'll start a dialogue. I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go.
Audio Magazine and Planet Melting
00:00:25
Speaker
start getting ready as I finish up reading the hero essays for issue three of the audio magazine still judging and curating I'm still got a few more to read I've got a new call for submissions forthcoming on a really really cool topic I can't wait to share with you so that's coming soon stay tuned not in this episode but stay tuned nevertheless
00:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty mind bending to just think like, Oh, at any point we could just flash melt the entire planet. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's pretty scary, but luckily it doesn't happen that often.
Introduction to Creative Nonfiction Podcast and Space Books
00:01:08
Speaker
This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. This non-award-nominated podcast. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going? I have a slew of space books on my shelf. Most are hefty, which would take me in the neighborhood of a month to read. I'm a slow reader, and I just really want to read them, even if their pub dates aren't hot anymore. My term for when authors are always looking to
00:01:38
Speaker
promote their work like right around the time their pub date comes and I get it, but sometimes it's nice to have a long tail. Am I right?
Featuring Greg Brenica and His Achievements
00:01:48
Speaker
Anyway, but one that is certainly more accessible and slim and funny and dare I say impactful is Greg Brenica's impact how rocks and space led to life, culture, and Donkey Kong.
00:02:03
Speaker
Yeah. Sidebar. Shout out to Kelsey, who's a new tier three patron. Love that. But back when I had Jess Phoenix on the show, a volcanologist.
00:02:17
Speaker
Kelsey messaged me and said he liked when we dove into the science of the volcanoes. So many of you know, of course, that we dig primarily into writing and the writer's life, whatever that is. But sometimes the material taps you on the shoulder and says, hey, buddy.
00:02:35
Speaker
Let's, uh, why don't we go over here? And sure, yes, we do talk about some writing a bit in this episode, but the bulk of this is about meteorites in the cosmos. If you like the brilliant Allie Ward's ologies podcast, which I highly recommend, this episode is sort of like that.
Podcast Social Media and Listener Engagement
00:02:53
Speaker
Lots of meteorite talk.
00:02:55
Speaker
and a little writing talk. This can happen when scientists and such come on the show versus writers who write about science. Does that make sense? I think it does. It makes sense to me, and that's all that matters in the end. I want to remind you to keep the conversation going on Twitter at cnfpod or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram. You can also support the podcast by becoming a paid member of patreon.com slash cnfpod. As I say, the show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap.
00:03:22
Speaker
Members get transcripts, chances to ask questions of future guests, special podcasts, early access to the audio magazine before it goes public. Free ways to support the show. I know what it's like to not be able to kind of fork over even a few bucks to your favorite podcaster. I get it. But there are plenty of free ways to do it, and the best way is leaving a kind of review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
00:03:49
Speaker
Spotify doesn't do reviews, but do ratings, but Apple, the written reviews on Apple are huge. Written reviews for this little podcast that could go a long way towards validating it for the wayward CNF-er. At one point or another, I bet you were a wayward CNF-er, and you stumbled upon our little podcast, and you're like, woo, check that out. And you might have even been swayed or persuaded by the written reviews you might have seen in Apple Podcasts, but I'll give this shit a try.
00:04:17
Speaker
Right? Anyway.
00:04:20
Speaker
Consider it. And if you publish it, when it posts, I will read it on the air and give you mad props, the maddest of props.
Greg's Research in Planetary Science
00:04:28
Speaker
So, Greg Brennica is a PhD. Meteorotesis. Meteorot... It sounds... It sounds like... I can't not say that word without, like, eroticism coming out. So it's meteoritesis. I think that's it. Meteoritics. Meteoritesis.
00:04:49
Speaker
Erotica, meteor, meteor erotica. Staff scientist and a Cosmo chemist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. He's never going to come back on this show. Following his doctoral work.
00:05:05
Speaker
At Arizona State University, he received the prestigious Sophia Something Award from the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation in 2014 to study the early solar system at the Institute of Planetology in Munster, Germany, where he led the Solar System Forensics Group for five years.
00:05:28
Speaker
His research has appeared in science, nature, and proceedings of the National Academy of Science. Now that sounds fancy. He says he's bad at the internet, God bless him, but if you want to find him on Twitter, he's at Greg Brennica with two N's. The extra N is for neo-eyes. We talk about the formation of our moon.
00:05:51
Speaker
So the famous Kurt Vonnegut line was, go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Go take a flying fuck at the moon. It wouldn't be in existence were it not for a cosmic rock the size of Mars smashing into Earth with the beautiful name Theia.
00:06:09
Speaker
We get into how meteorites shaped our culture, how much of a meteorite does Greg need in hand to conduct research he needs to do, and a whole lot more. So what do you say we welcome the Carl Sagan of meteorites, Greg Berenica?
From Geology to Meteorites - Greg's Career Path
00:06:35
Speaker
Now give me a sense of what that moment was like when you started to look up at the stars, but it was meteorites that started to seize your attention.
00:06:46
Speaker
Well, actually it kind of went the other way. I was looking at the ground. I was kind of a traditional geologist and then learned about meteorites and then started getting into space that way. So it was kind of the opposite of what most people do. I think a lot of people start with a telescope or a telescope as a kid or something and go that direction. But I was just a kid looking at rocks in nature and then decided, you know what? Some of these rocks came from space and I'm pretty interested in those.
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, and what was it about geology and the stories that rocks in and of themselves can tell that appeal to you?
00:07:20
Speaker
I think it's just kind of the cool idea of figuring out what happened. I mean, that's what geologists are traditionally always doing is they look at an outcrop or they look at a rock in some way and they just kind of figure out what the environment was like, you know, what was going on at that time when that rock was formed and what has happened since then. And, you know, that's, you know, just kind of looking back in time like a forensics expert or something. And, you know, that's kind of what geologists are always doing. And, you know, it was space rocks in the same way for the most part.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, what did you find most appealing about that to start to study it with a lot of rigor and attention? That's a great question. I would say probably the variety that meteorites bring to the table is probably what I found to be most stimulating. I mean, if there's a lot of people out there that study volcanoes and they're super cool or study sedimentary rocks and look at the history of the ocean on the planet,
00:08:19
Speaker
But if you're looking at meteorites, you're kind of looking at everything. You're looking at the history of Mars. You're looking at the history of the moon, how the moon formed. You're looking at how the solar system formed itself, what was going on in the first 10 million years as planets were starting to form. So I found the variety to be really stimulating from a scientific standpoint.
00:08:40
Speaker
Now, as you're getting into this, I'm sure that, you know, for astrophysicists, it might be looking to Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson for inspiration of like, oh, that's what I, you know, that's really cool. I love how they communicated. I want to get into that. For you, who were some of the people that you pointed to that inspired you to go down this particular scientific path?
00:09:01
Speaker
I would say actually more authors than anything as opposed to kind of scientists. I read Bill Bryson fairly late in life actually. I was working in a lab doing some, just watching some column strip as I was starting to get into my graduate education and I was reading A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I just loved it. I loved his communication style. I loved the interesting topics he was talking about. And I loved how he brought enthusiasm to his writing and kind of taught you about something you didn't know or didn't think you needed to know about. So I got into that and really enjoyed that. And then, of course, I stumbled my way into studying meteorites. And that's kind of how the book came along is I thought, you know what? Somebody should combine these two things.
00:09:47
Speaker
Yeah, I understand when you were reading that, I've read a bunch of Bryson, I have not read that book. It's a big hefty one, but it's one that comes highly recommended. But I think he sort of breezed past meteorites, or just gave it a superficial pass, and you're like, oh, maybe that's my daylight to go in and maybe get real granular on meteorites.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I went back and reread Bryson after I kind of thought of this idea, you know, two or three years ago about writing this book and I thought, okay, maybe he covered and I just missed it. And really all that was in there was kind of that, you know, meteorites are something that fall from the sky and they killed dinosaurs. And, you know, that's fine. You know, that's kind of what maybe the general public knows and thinks about meteorites.
00:10:38
Speaker
But of course, you know, there's a lot more to it than that. And I think I think that you're exactly right. That was the daylight to kind of break into that into that scene.
Cosmic Collision and Earth's Reset Button
00:10:46
Speaker
We need to talk about how the moon was formed and the Mars sized meteorite that was named Theia. Like that just blew my mind. And let's let's just I'll let you run with that football a bit, because that is just an incredible story of how the moon was formed.
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah, it really is. I mean, and just not just the influence of that happening with the moon, but also how it changed Earth. And, you know, I guess the play by play of it goes is that, you know, early on in in solar system history, the Earth had formed and pretty much all the planets had basically formed by this time.
00:11:22
Speaker
were a couple hundred million years into the solar system. So most of the big things had already formed, but they weren't really stable. The planets were still kind of figuring out their right orbits and things like this. And there was a lot of impacts that were happening at the time. And as you mentioned, the early Earth and Theia, which is the Mars-sized body that hit Earth, basically ran into each other. And of course, that flash melted the entire planet of Earth.
00:11:51
Speaker
and cause this rock vapor to form around Earth. And that's actually what the moon formed from. This is kind of rock vapor.
00:11:57
Speaker
And that's actually how we end up having such a large satellite next to us. And the implications of that were mind-blowing. A lot of people would say that we would be on a similar trajectory to Venus and have this horribly crushing atmosphere of 96% CO2, just totally unlivable, if it weren't for that kind of resetting of the atmosphere and blowing off that early atmosphere of Earth with that large impact.
00:12:21
Speaker
There's a lot of things to point to of how important that was for the evolution of the planet and life, but it's a pretty big impact in both senses of the word, I guess.
00:12:32
Speaker
Well, yeah, what was amazing about it to read was that it really it just kind of wiped out the mainframe and sort of hit the reset button on everything. Just like, you know, we're just like, is it like just basically surface melted the entire surface of the earth and had to basically reboot the whole process over again. It's just an amazing thing and overwhelming really to even think about when I was trying to get my head around it.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty mind-bending to just think like, oh, at any point we could just flash melt the entire planet. Oh, that's cool. Right. Yeah, it's pretty scary. But luckily it doesn't happen that often. Yeah, and with that rock dust and cloud that eventually sort of accrete to form the moon, how does that even happen where those things come together and merge in such a way where you do get a solid celestial body?
00:13:28
Speaker
Well, it's all just kind of chemistry and gravity. And the gravity of a molten earth is going to be the same as the gravity of a solid earth. So all of those things are still kind of in orbit around the earth after they get knocked off. And the chunks of the meteorite, Theia, basically are still floating around. So all those things that are kind of blown off and blown off into that vapor are still gravitationally connected to the earth. And then, of course, over time,
00:13:56
Speaker
Uh, they end up coalescing and forming the moon. And of course you've got a lot of heat still going on in that system. So that's why when they form it's, it's molten, you know, so you get, you get a lot of, of heat and so you end up, you know, kind of melting also the moon. And that's why we have a lot of volcanic activity on the moon that happened early on too. So it's just all, it's all, you know, gravity and chemistry, I guess I would say.
Meteorites as Solar System Historians
00:14:18
Speaker
You write that rocks from outer space not only create stories but they tell them also. So in what ways are these rocks from space carrying these encrypted messages and how do you go about decoding them?
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, and this is what I got super excited about when I was in graduate school, just kind of learning about this, is that what all the stuff that you can learn from a rock that just fell, you know, from space. And, you know, when I say they tell stories as well, I mean, we would have no idea really how the solar system formed and its early evolution if it weren't for meteorites.
00:14:51
Speaker
And they contain these clues as to what was going on at that time. I mean, you look at some of the very ancient primitive meteorites, and they contain the very first solids that formed at the beginning of the sun. And we can see what was going on with the conditions of the sun and what material was being injected into our protoplanetary disk from the molecular cloud. You can see how much water was present. You can see how much of different radioactive species were present.
00:15:19
Speaker
You can look at different signatures of how active the young sun was. So early on, the sun was very temperamental, I like to say, and had a lot more activity than it does now. And we can measure those kind of things as they're recorded in these early form solids. So I think it's just the stories that they tell are kind of the conditions that were present early in that protoplanetary disk as the planets and sun were forming.
00:15:46
Speaker
And then, of course, sometimes we're lucky enough to get pieces of planet Mars or the moon that also tell us about the evolution of those bodies as well. You have a chunk knocked off of Mars. That tells you about a snapshot in time on what the crust of Mars was happening.
00:16:03
Speaker
two billion years ago or 600 million years ago or four billion years ago. So you layer these things together, you also get a pretty good snapshot of a bunch of different timeframes that tell you the history of Mars as well. So they're really beneficial to us as a society from a scientific standpoint.
00:16:21
Speaker
And when there's a meteorite fall and a find, which you define nicely in there, it's just like, you know, it's falling in the air. And then when it's on the ground, it becomes a find. They're essentially kind of like a clock starts ticking, so to speak, before they become sort of contaminated by everything that's sort of in the air or on the ground.
00:16:42
Speaker
So, about how fast should, or how much time does a researcher or a scavenger have to find these things before you start losing the information that's encoded in them.
00:16:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, obviously the faster, the better. And if they fall into place, a lot of meteorites are found in deserts simply because they're easier to see. And because of the lack of rainfall, then they last a lot longer. So there's been very useful samples that have been found that have been laying in deserts for probably hundreds to thousands of years.
00:17:15
Speaker
There's certainly meteorites that have been found in Antarctica that have kind of been trapped in ice and then kind of resurfaced. They're still very, very useful and contain a lot of very pristine information. But also at the same time, we've got meteorites that have fallen in the jungles of Indonesia that people saw fall collected and basically, maybe 50 years later, they're basically completely destroyed because
00:17:39
Speaker
They've been weathered so heavily and they're almost useless from a scientific standpoint. So a lot of it just depends on how much weathering they see and what types of environments they see. But yeah, the sooner the better, I guess is the easy way to say that.
Interdisciplinary Study of Meteorites
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, I like that you write, too, that meteor...is it meteoritics? Is that how you pronounce the field? Yeah, meteoritics. We just made up word anyway, who knows? But it sits at the crossroad between very broad disciplines, including astronomy, chemistry, and geology.
00:18:17
Speaker
So in what ways do the meteoritics sort of embody the Venn diagram of all these great disciplines of science?
00:18:29
Speaker
Right. Well, a lot of it, geologists are especially normally the ones that are becoming meteoritists because of the same tools that we use in geology we end up using in meteoritics. Things like mass spectrometers and petrographic microscopes and these types that are normally things that geologists train on and then you kind of get hooked on meteorites.
00:18:48
Speaker
That's the main stepping stone for geologists, but then of course, in order to figure out what's going on, we have to be able to talk to astronomers. How would this form? Why would it have this type of signature? Why is this important and these types of things? Then we end up delving into astronomical literature and people that do those types of things.
00:19:11
Speaker
And then, of course, chemistry in general is always happening in rocks. And it happens whether you're in zero gravity or under the bottom of the ocean. So we just have to know what types of environments to kind of understand and predict the chemistry that's happening. Is there a particular meteorite you can point to, one that really opened up the eyes and maybe even opened up the possibilities of the origins of the universe, sort of like a meteorite patient zero?
Significant Meteorites: Allende and Murchison
00:19:41
Speaker
Yes, yes. So actually, I'll just go ahead and say one year. There's two meteorites that fell in the same year that I think would answer that question. So in 1969, there were two meteorites that fell. One was Allende and one was Murchison. One of them fell in Mexico. Allende fell in Mexico and Murchison fell in Australia.
00:19:58
Speaker
And there's a lot of kind of happy coincidences that happened at that point. Of course, in 1969, everybody's super excited about going to the moon. We've got a bunch of clean labs that are being built and learning how to make these measurements. And there's new instrumentation coming online to allow us to study moon rocks. And so there's a large scientific community that's interested in space, and they're ready to kind of get these rocks and make these measurements. And then these two really important meteorites fall. And they're both very pristine.
00:20:28
Speaker
You know, weathered a lot, they were seen to fall, and large amounts were collected. So that's also key is that they could be kind of spread around the world to a lot of different labs, and there was a lot of material to use.
00:20:39
Speaker
And it turned out when you start looking at these things, you start seeing signatures of the very, very early solar system because they were such pristine objects. They were never melted, ever. So you think about something that's four and a half billion years old, and it's basically recording exactly what happened when it formed.
00:20:59
Speaker
And these two meteorites, one of them contains some of the oldest solids that formed. And that's what I've spent most of my time studying, is looking at the very early solids that formed. And then, Murchison, the other meteorite, contains those as well, but they're really small. But the most important thing Murchison contains is a lot of organic material. And this is something that happens to form in the outer solar system, where Murchison formed.
00:21:24
Speaker
And you end up kind of capturing us in meteorites because they form basically as a sedimentary rock only in space. So you end up with all this kind of organic matter that gets trapped in this meteorite and then it was delivered to the planet. And it's just really fascinating when you look at these things.
00:21:39
Speaker
When looking into outer space with telescopes and whatnot, how are scientists able to determine if a particular asteroid or meteorite actually is organic rich? I think that's something I read in the book. Is there a way to tell or am I just totally making that up and you need to actually measure it at home?
00:22:05
Speaker
No, no, you're absolutely right. You can say where you think it probably has a lot of organics, and this is kind of being put into practice right now. There's two space missions that are basically going up to collect asteroidal material. Hayabusa 2 was the Japanese mission that has already returned, and they're starting to get some results back now. And then Osiris Rex is the NASA version of that. And both of these basically went to these carbon-rich asteroids. They have a lot of carbonaceous material. They have a lot of organic material in them.
00:22:34
Speaker
And the reason they were able to figure out that is basically you point an instrument up there and kind of look at the spectral lines and you can kind of get a broad idea of what elements and what compounds are contained on the surface of that meteorite. So that's actually why they went to those meteorites is because they looked like they would contain a lot of organic materials and kind of this pristine stuff that formed in the very early solar system.
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, and what is the nature of those organic minerals or organic compounds or molecules that are typically out there?
00:23:08
Speaker
Well, they range a lot. So it's pretty easy to think, OK, yeah, there's definitely going to be some water. There's going to be some CO2 and very basic compounds like that. That makes total sense. But these things actually form pretty complex organic molecules. And when I say organic molecules, I don't mean necessarily something from a living being, but something that contains carbon.
00:23:33
Speaker
And you can end up with a lot of carbon chains to the point of where we're seeing amino acids all the way up to very complicated things like nucleotide bases that are found in our DNA. And these just kind of form by the combination of the elements being present and UV radiation.
00:23:51
Speaker
And these just happen just by chance in the outer solar system of really of any star system where you've got water and carbon and nitrogen and other elements that make up amino acids and other kind of semi-complex molecules. And they just kind of happen by chance. And they survive in the cold areas of space and they're captured in meteorites.
00:24:18
Speaker
I think what's really, really wacky about chemistry is the idea of the chirality of a molecule and how the handedness of it determines, it can be the difference between like methamphetamine versus something that's far more benign as you write about as well.
00:24:40
Speaker
As someone with a chemistry background, maybe explain this idea of chirality and then how chemists even figured out that there are these mirror images of molecules that can act and behave totally differently from their mirror image.
00:24:59
Speaker
It is pretty wild. I mean, you mentioned the difference in methamphetamine and I think it's nasal decongestant, which is kind of the other side. So back to the chirality issue is that if you're looking at your hand and you put your hands together, obviously your right and left hand, they look the same to you. If you just took a picture, it may be difficult to see the difference between the right and the left hand.
00:25:21
Speaker
And you wouldn't know if it was a mirror image or not. But of course, one is easier to use for you than the other for the most part. So they do have differences. The same is true for chemistry. It may be the exact same molecule from a chemical standpoint. It may have the exact same chemical formula. But if it's arranged in different orientation in three dimensions, then it is going to behave differently. It's going to have different bonding sites.
00:25:47
Speaker
And that's the idea behind chirality. And that's what makes methamphetamine, methamphetamine, and that's what makes nasal decongestant, nasal decongestant. And it is pretty crazy to think. And of course, for certain compounds, life prefers one or the other and will build itself out of one side or the other. It doesn't really use both in most cases. So that's kind of the really important part of the chirality is that one is functional, whereas one is usually not functional for most living beings.
00:26:18
Speaker
One of the greatest explanations of chirality was actually, I believe it was the pilot of the show Breaking Bad, where Walt is the high school chemistry teacher and he's holding up his hands and he's talking about the chirality of the molecules.
00:26:36
Speaker
And it was just such a perfect embodiment of him, because if he looked in a mirror one way, like he was going to be this, well, as they said, he turned him from Mr. Chips into Scarface was the famous pitch. And so embodied in this, I don't know, this hull of a person was really a mirror image that's identical, but is actually functioning completely different. There was a handedness to his own personality, which was a really brilliant way to illustrate it.
00:27:04
Speaker
I totally agree. I mean, there's a lot of chemistry fans out there that are loving the character arc of him, and I think that's a good point. I think it's a great illustration. You're right. Now, is it true that – I think I read this and hopefully I made the right note – that Mars at one point had an atmosphere that was similar to Earth.
00:27:27
Speaker
Mars' climate was definitely very different early on. So the atmosphere is certainly debated. It's going to have a thicker atmosphere probably early on in Martian history, and it was certainly a lot wetter. So there's definitely evidence of liquid water that has existed on Mars in the past. So kind of the first billion, maybe two billion years, depending on how you slice it, the Martian climate was very, very different from what it is now.
00:27:53
Speaker
So yeah, and of course now that we're up and collecting samples that we hopefully are able to bring back soon enough, at least during my career, that's what they're kind of shooting for, is looking at these areas that have seen liquid water in the hopes that we're able to find some evidence of past life or something along those lines. But yeah, Mars definitely had a very different atmosphere early on.
00:28:16
Speaker
If you wanted to get a piece of some of the Mars booty coming back eventually, hopefully before the end of your career, how would you go about petitioning and lobbying to be like, yeah, can I get a piece of that Martian rock? Well, it's funny you say that. We're actually in the process. All of NASA and participating scientists around the world are doing that for the missions that have just brought back material for OSIRIS-REx and Hayabusa2 that I mentioned earlier from these carbon rich asteroids.
00:28:46
Speaker
So this is exactly the same process that will happen for Mars when we eventually bring back samples for that. Basically, you write proposals, say what you can do, what you plan to do, how it's a good use of material, these types of things. And then various panels, much like peer review, will review these proposals and decide who gets samples and who has to wait.
00:29:11
Speaker
But yeah, it's a very exciting and cool thing to do. It can be a bit frustrating sometimes. But yeah, in order to get these samples, you have to kind of show that you're worthy and have a good plan going forward. And we do this at smaller levels for the use of Apollo samples or meteorites that are collected by NASA. So we have these types of things in place. It's just that the stakes are a little bit higher when you're bringing back samples from a space mission like OSIRIS-REx or something like that.
00:29:40
Speaker
Now, how much mass of a particular meteorite would be enough for you to play with and do some research for an indefinite amount of time? How much would you need in hand?
00:29:57
Speaker
Yeah, so that's a great question. And it's actually not that much. So it's actually often quite easy to get enough sample to use. So for the stuff that I generally do, a lot of chronology and looking at where things formed in the solar system, if we get a gram of material, that's usually enough to do this type of stuff that we need to do. Some studies, we need a little bit more than that. So we may be talking about five grams or something like this.
00:30:24
Speaker
But that's not a lot of material if you think about it. Something the size of my thumb, and I could work on that for a long, long time. So it's actually not that much material. If you get a half gram, then you're starting to push the limits of doing everything that I would want to do to the sample.
00:30:41
Speaker
But of course, we layer these things. You start off with the non-destructive analysis, and then you move more and more destructive to the point where you end up having to dissolve the entire sample. But yeah, I mean, for the most part, if I've got somewhere near a gram or the people that do the type of stuff that I do, if we've got a gram or so, then we're in good shape.
00:30:58
Speaker
Now you mentioned that you're looking to form a chronology of sorts about, I imagine just dating back to the formation of the universe, back to the Big Bang one imagines. So in your research, where are the gaps in the chronology that you're hoping to patch up?
00:31:21
Speaker
So a lot of it, so for meteorites, we're dealing with just the solar system. So we're kind of restricted to this kind of 4.56 billion year timeframe. And what I would say the most interesting to me is kind of that first 10 billion years. We're just getting to the point now where we have the precision to kind of see the differences in what was happening maybe a million years after the sun formed and the planet started to form and 2 million years after that happened.
00:31:49
Speaker
And there's, you know, I like to think of all the exciting stuff in the solar system really was happening at that point. And the chronometers that were used, we're now starting to be able to see those on, you know, a hundred year, excuse me, a hundred thousand year timeframe as opposed to a million or two million years. And, you know, when you think about building a planet and planetary bodies, you know, you'd think, okay, it's huge. It's going to take forever. But in reality, this actually happens really, really fast on a geologic timescale. And we can, you can form planets incredibly fast and, you know, the hundred,
00:32:19
Speaker
100,000 year timeframe to form an entire planet. So we need these chronometers to be quite precise in order to see which planets formed first, how they evolved when they melted, when they formed a crust or a core and things like this. So I guess that's why we do what we do is to figure out how these planets form and evolve.
00:32:41
Speaker
Now, earlier you're mentioning how Mars' atmosphere was significantly different in wetter, obviously. What has to happen, or what can't, we've seen it was something like Theia that can totally reset a planet, but what do you suppose happened on Mars that made it uninhabitable and totally changed its dynamic?
00:33:04
Speaker
Part of the problem with Mars is it's actually a little bit small to be able to keep everything you would want to keep a habitable planet going. So it's a little bit smaller than Earth. I would mess up the exact dimensions, but we'll just say 60% smaller. And somebody will check me on that, and I'll be wrong, I'm sure. But it's smaller than Earth.
00:33:23
Speaker
And because it's a little bit smaller, it loses a little bit more of the stuff over time. So you end up having escape of things like water from Mars's gravitational pull because it simply just can't hold on to things as well.
00:33:37
Speaker
So, you know, for people that look at kind of habitability of planets outside of our own solar system, that becomes very important. To be able to hold on to those goodies, you know, the things that you would want as a habitable planet for a long period of time to allow evolution to take place and develop intelligent beings, you know, you would need a long period of time to do that. You would need a certain mass of a planet.
00:34:00
Speaker
So that's, you know, one of the bigger problems with Mars, you know, kind of sustaining along habitability is that it's actually a little bit smaller than maybe you would need to be.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah, because that got me thinking about, okay, so meteorites often contain these chemicals that can help molecules that allow for potentially life to take root, or there are some sort of introductory materials in the starter kit.
00:34:30
Speaker
of maybe terraforming a planet. So I was thinking like if people want to eventually inhabit or try to colonize Mars, is there a way to terraform it? Taking the concept of what meteorites deliver haphazardly but do it more concentrated with like oh here are some man-made terraforming meteorites that we just like bombard a planet with and terraform it.
00:34:57
Speaker
I like how science fiction, this is turned, this is great. This is like Prometheus or one of these movies, this is great. We would need a lot of material. I mean, we've definitely found meteorites on the surface of Mars, which I think is really cool with Spirit and Opportunity rovers that were kind of driving around and they just kind of stumble across a few iron meteorites, which I think is really cool to think about, oh, meteorites exist on other planets too. Here's the proof.
00:35:23
Speaker
But as far as the actual ingredients that exist, I think part of the problem is that with Mars, for example, if it's been kind of sitting out and exposed, then those complex organic molecules would have broken down due to all the radiation that is taking place.
00:35:38
Speaker
So you're first going to have to kind of create some sort of atmosphere. You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger in Total Recall, you know, create this type of atmosphere probably first that can then kind of allow these organic molecules, these complex organic molecules to actually survive in the radiation conditions there.
00:35:59
Speaker
But that's going to be way beyond my actual comfort zone of talking, so I'm just totally making stuff up right now. Yeah, you want to maintain a certain measure of credibility in your career, and I understand that. I do not want to be the one who discredits one Greg Brenica in his PhD career in Cosmo Chemistry. Yeah.
00:36:21
Speaker
Does the axis of the Earth and how it's tilted, does that affect where we tend to find most of the meteorites that do land on Earth?
Meteorite Landing Patterns
00:36:33
Speaker
So meteorites actually hit Earth pretty randomly wherever you are. They're going to hit the same in China as they hit in Norway. It's just random. They're coming from all directions. You're spinning. That's not really too much of a
00:36:50
Speaker
differences to where they land. The major issue is where we find them. Of course, you know, they're kind of spraying us all over the place all the time. Most of them, of course, land in the ocean because we have 70% ocean, but they're easier to find when you don't have vegetation and you've got, you know, white rock or ice or something like that, where it's just easy to pick them out as something that's very different. So, you know, it's like I said, it's random, but it's not random where we find them, if that makes sense.
00:37:20
Speaker
And what was pretty cool about your book too is how these meteorites have played an important role as you write influencing human culture and religious teachings over time.
Meteorites in Religion and Culture
00:37:34
Speaker
And you say like in that to me is a story worth telling.
00:37:37
Speaker
So maybe you can expand on just what these cosmic bodies and how they affected human culture and how it's interpreted and how humans over time reacted to these things falling to Earth.
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah, sure. I mean, it's, you know, whether you're a religious person or not, you know, a lot of people are aware of a lot of these religious stories or things that are happening in some of the world's major religions. And, you know, as you look into these things, it's pretty interesting to me how many of them are actually caused
00:38:11
Speaker
by cosmic influence. And I guess that's not too much of a stretch if you're living four or 5,000 years ago and just kind of doing your thing. And a major cosmic event happens, whether it be a comet or a meteorite fall or an airburst or something like this that totally disrupts your day or night or whatever it may be. You may think that's something related to the heavens or God or whatever you want to call it.
00:38:39
Speaker
And that's not too much of a stretch. And, you know, this has certainly happened for basically every major religion. And, you know, I can just pick a few out of Christianity. You know, you look at, like, the Star of Bethlehem was a comet. So that's something a lot of people have heard of, but it was actually a comet that was passing at the time.
00:39:00
Speaker
Things like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which as the story goes, these cities were destroyed by God because they were doing something amoral or something like this. But that was probably a meteoritic airburst.
00:39:17
Speaker
And there's layers and layers of these stories that go on. In Islam, you talk about the literal cornerstone of the most important place in Islam where they face to pray. And that's actually some material that was probably kicked up by a meteorite. So I just think it's really interesting how many of these things have actually created these inflection points in some of the most followed religions on the planet.
00:39:42
Speaker
Now, a couple years ago, the comet Neolize was up and we were able to see it from where we were on a clear night here in Western Oregon. It was just like, what a trip to see something like that, you know, just, I don't know, just up there, just kind of hanging in the sky and then, you know, the next day it's moving, of course.
00:40:03
Speaker
You know, it does inspire a tremendous degree of awe. And I wonder for you, where the juice is for you. You're looking at these kind of things and the things that make you just excited to do the thing you do.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah, all those things. I mean, it is kind of awe-inspiring, but also it really puts things in perspective, in my opinion, is that we're just a really insignificant rock when it comes to the cosmos in general. I mean, you look at this comet that's passing by like you were talking about, and that thing's been circling the sun for probably four and a half billion years or more. It formed basically at the same time the sun formed, and it's been doing its thing since then.
00:40:47
Speaker
And that's a lot of time. We talk about, oh, I've been here for 41 years or whatever. We're talking many, many orders of magnitude difference. And we're one rock that has life on it. And I don't think there's any reason to believe that life hasn't popped up in quite a few different places around the cosmos.
00:41:10
Speaker
Um, so when people get upset about, you know, something on earth that, you know, maybe seem important to them at the time, to me, it's just like, oh, well, we're all kind of insignificant, which is depressing at some level, but it also kind of puts things perspective a little bit, uh, at least for me.
00:41:27
Speaker
I know it can you can you can take it either way it's like in either direction like we are so insignificant and nothing matters so why why try why do anything but then there's the other side of it is just like wow what a lottery we won yeah every one of us right it's like you can take it either direction
00:41:46
Speaker
No, you're absolutely right. I guess finding that middle ground is key. You definitely don't want to just give up and say, oh, nothing I do matters because the sun's going to engulf us in a few billion years anyway. Why do I care? That's depressing. That's not a good way to go through life either.
00:42:01
Speaker
Now, in the acknowledgments, I love how you wrote that somehow without complaint, speaking about the people who read early drafts of your work, you read every mediocre first draft of every chapter. And that gets to a point that so many of us have with early drafts when we're writing anything, is that we have a vision of what our perfect thing is going to look like in our head, and then we start writing, and then we're like, oh boy.
00:42:27
Speaker
This ain't pretty. This is one ugly baby. So when you were in that process of trying to care for this ugly baby, despite its hideous appearance, what was that experience like for you as you were bringing this thing to life?
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah, I was lucky because I had a few people that were close to me to read and give honest feedback. That was key for me. I'd write a chapter and I had the blueprints of it and then I'd put it on paper. After a while, I'd finish what I would think would be a decent first draft and send it over and say, hey, what do you think of this?
00:43:06
Speaker
And every time, they would always give positive and negative feedback, but it was always constructive. And that was really important for me to see, OK, this was great. This was something I learned a lot about. And I think it's really interesting. You should expand on this. This was really boring. Don't talk about this. I don't think anybody outside of your field cares about it.
00:43:29
Speaker
or you're trying to be too humorous about this one, it's not even funny, or this is great, continue on with this line of thinking. So for me, having that type of feedback was really nice, especially from people I liked and trusted, because I think without that, I would have really been shooting in the dark as to what kind of most people think of as what they wanted to read about. And of course, I knew what I was interested in, but that's not necessarily always the case of what everybody's interested in.
00:43:58
Speaker
So kind of taking four or five people's honest advice was really important for me. Yeah. And with anything, you even alluded to it, there are probably certain things about your area of expertise where you'll dive into the real granular stuff and be like, this is really fascinating to me. But to a lay audience is probably like, yeah, that's over my head. And it feels like a different language.
00:44:22
Speaker
So that's really the crux of talking about science in a compelling way that gets people to kind of buy into the importance of this kind of stuff. So what was the challenge for you in striking that balance of, I want to deliver this really cool information, but I also have to do it in a way where it's entertaining at the same time.
00:44:41
Speaker
Right. And I guess I like to think of myself as decent at doing the types of things I do. I don't think of myself as a super genius by any stretch of the imagination. So in order to learn these things, I had to learn it basically starting at the beginning. And I'm not, like I said, I'm not amazing at running a mass spectrometer, for example. But I know how to mass spectrometer works because someone was able to teach me at the level that I could understand it.
00:45:09
Speaker
And I guess it's kind of a help that I don't understand things so well, because that's how I like to teach people about the tools that we use or the meteorites that we study and why we study them, is because it's important to be able to understand it at a lot of different levels. And for somebody who's a non-expert in it, you kind of have to start how you started learning it.
00:45:32
Speaker
Because nobody understands plasma physics at any level until you start learning about it. You just kind of have to think about it that way, I guess. What's plasma physics? I don't know. I was hoping you knew. When you were writing this book, when you were hitting speed bumps, what did those speed bumps look like?
00:46:00
Speaker
Good question. Speed bumps were probably on what topics to focus on. There's a couple parts of the appendix that are more kind of geology focused and kind of methods focused.
00:46:17
Speaker
Those are, of course, the easiest things to write about because that's what I do in my everyday job as a cosmochemist. But, of course, those are not things that people really care about that are just picking up a book to learn about. King Tut's dagger is a meteorite. They don't really care about how you measure the isotopic composition of that. I guess, to me, picking the topics that were
00:46:40
Speaker
of the most interest to non-experts was probably one of the biggest speed bumps. And that's why I was able to really lean on my helpful readers to tell me which directions they thought were better. So I guess maybe those are the speed bumps that I would say.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's a lot like when you're if you're if there's a nature show or something you have to focus on the charismatic megafauna and it's like what's cool about like you know elephants and tigers and all that stuff and it's like same thing with you it's like you needed to look at like King Tut's dagger and talk about you know earth shattering you know meteorites that could
00:47:26
Speaker
Obliterate the planet like don't look up that whole you know that kind of that kind of thing So it's like you got to like pick the things that are like the juiciest things and you don't focus on that even though I'd like they're super cool But you're probably like oh man. I've seen this movie a hundred times. Do I really have to talk about it?
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's part of that and that's why I don't focus on the death of the dinosaurs too much. I mean, there's a little bit in there about that, but kind of everybody knows that happened and there's books upon books that have researched as far better than I could or did. But I think there's a lot of other things that hadn't been talked about that are equally important or at least very important to the dinosaurs being knocked out by a meteorite. Yeah. I mean, I just think it's just kind of fun to learn about those things.
Overcoming Writing Challenges with Greg
00:48:11
Speaker
Now, at any point in the generation of a book, there comes this point in the middle, usually in the middle, and it's just like, man, the honeymoon's over. I'm too far away from the shore to swim back. The only way is a forward, but it's a slog. How are you getting through the slog of the middle of writing impact?
00:48:34
Speaker
I am not sure I hit that to be totally honest. And I think it was because I just kind of took my time and was kind of doing scientific research at the same time. Um, so I was in no hurry to finish this. Uh, I would just kind of write a chapter and then send it off to a few people and see what they thought and then, you know, do some lab work and then come back. So there wasn't a point where I kind of got burned out on it.
00:48:58
Speaker
Uh, because I, I wasn't really trying to finish the book. I was just writing these chapters because I found them interesting. You know, I made a list of the interesting chat or the, the interesting things about, uh, meteorites that I don't think had been talked enough about. I guess I never really hit that. And, and maybe that's just because I wasn't pressing to, to write on it, but I can, I, there were definitely parts in some chapters was, I was like, Oh man, I don't know how to, I don't know where to go with this.
00:49:23
Speaker
But it didn't seem like it was a whole book. It was just kind of within maybe one or two stories about I wasn't sure where to take something. And, you know, for me, I just put it down for a week or two and then would come back to it. So I guess I was fortunate in that to where I kind of had other things on my mind that were associated with the topic, but not necessarily considered part of the book.
00:49:43
Speaker
Now in this show, I like to talk about voice a lot, and you've talked about Bill Bryson and how influential he is, and he's definitely a very voicey writer. He's very distinctive. Over the course of writing this book, what did you learn about yourself as a writer and the voice that you were looking to convey once you really got going?
00:50:04
Speaker
I don't know, actually. It's really funny, though, a lot of my friends that have read parts of the book, they're like, oh, it's really hard because I can just hear you saying these stupid things. So it makes me kind of realize maybe how I talk and then read this in text and go, oh, man, that's embarrassing or whatever it is. But yeah, I guess as far as finding the voice, to me, it was just kind of looking at what people want to learn about.
00:50:33
Speaker
It may not. And I think that's why I ended up putting a lot of footnotes in the book. And maybe sometimes people find these distracting, and sometimes they find them helpful because you're kind of going out of a certain story. But that footnote, to me, is really interesting. And if I were speaking to you, I would probably tell you about that footnote. But it may not help with the story from a text standpoint. So that's why I ended up putting a lot of footnotes in. And maybe that is part of my voice, is just kind of how
00:51:01
Speaker
you know, little things pop in here or there that I find interesting, but don't necessarily belong as part of the main story.
00:51:08
Speaker
Now you said you did a lot of the illustrations in this book too. Is drawing something that you just like to do to unplug or something to do as a divert, some sort of thing that just kind of distracts you from the thing at hand to kind of restimulate your brain or just something you do for fun? For those that have seen the illustrations in the book, you can tell that I'm not a good artist.
00:51:37
Speaker
But I do enjoy it. I'm really terrible if I just pick up a pen or a pencil and start drawing. I'm just awful at it. But with the beauty of Illustrator or computers, which you can control Z and undo something, or move lines around after they've been put down, I can get to the point where something's recognizable.
00:51:57
Speaker
And I definitely enjoy that. And I think what it comes from is that I like telling stories with the pictures. And while I can't do it just with my hand and a pencil and paper, if I take the time, I can do it with some sort of digital illustration. So to kind of get back, I'm terrible at art, but I really enjoy it.
00:52:17
Speaker
Now, a lot of writers, too, have idiosyncrasies about how they go about the process, how they sort of stoke the fire so they can get into a nice flow, a nice practice to get. So I wonder for you, do you have any practice, things you put in place to get you into the right sort of mindset when you were writing this book and presumably your next ones?
00:52:42
Speaker
I didn't ever develop a real rhythm, um, probably because I would just do it chapter by chapter. And then, you know, like I said, put it down for a while, but probably just when I would get excited about something, you know, I'd wake up at two o'clock in the morning and think, Oh, I should talk about that. That's great. You know? And of course that next day I would spend the whole time sitting there writing about it or researching about that one topic, but it would just kind of come in, in fits and starts like that, I think. Uh, so it wasn't something that I could, you know, if,
00:53:10
Speaker
I would never schedule, okay, I'm writing all day Wednesday. Um, that's just not how my brain works. And it, I don't think I would have been productive at all had I set it up that way. Uh, I think it just kind of had to come somewhat organically, like, Oh, I thought of an idea. This is what I should talk about. And then I just talk about it until I have everything on paper that I want to talk about. Um, so I guess that's kind of how it happened, but I never really thought about how I was doing the writing. I was just kind of doing it.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah, I know that Gay Thales, who's probably in his 90s now, but he's one of like a pioneering literary journalist, if you will, the old guard journalist. And one of his weird things he would do, he would have these styrofoam wall panels on his wall, and he would print out a page of his whatever draft he was working on. He would pin it to the wall, pin it to those,
00:54:04
Speaker
styrofoam things, and he would walk across his office and with binoculars read the pages that he tacked up to the wall, I don't know, to get some degree of distance between himself and the work and to get a different visual perspective. I don't know if that would work. I wouldn't recommend that to anybody, but that is just one of those weird quirky things that some writers do. I like it, though. I like it.
00:54:29
Speaker
One of those things. For whatever reason, that takes me back to die hard when that guy's talking about how you get over jet lag. Take off your shoes and socks and just start grinding your feet into the carpet. It's one of these things that, yeah, I'll try it. Why not? Maybe it'll help.
00:54:48
Speaker
Now, I just got a couple more things for you, Greg. If you could snap your fingers and for a technology that will answer the most burning questions that you have about meteorites in your research, what would that be?
00:55:02
Speaker
You know, I would say probably the thing that interests me the most, and the people I work with will probably kill me because this is not at all what I do, is probably the organics in meteorites and how actually they contributed to
00:55:19
Speaker
the ignition of life. And I talk about, you know, the ingredients of life, you know, being brought with, you know, from meteorites. But that step going from, okay, we have all the ingredients to, you know, here we are, here's a birthday cake. You know, that to me is just absolutely fascinating. You know, what physical process happened? You know, what was it that actually kind of made that leap from raw ingredients to, you know, something swimming around in the ancient ocean?
00:55:46
Speaker
And I don't really know how that machine would be created. And there's a lot of smart people that have been working on this for a long, long time. And they've made some progress. But that's just one of those things that I think is absolutely fascinating. And at this point, we don't know. So I think that's where I'd go with that.
00:56:07
Speaker
I forgot to prime Allison to ask you about this. So it gets you a little flat-footed. No worries. It's a very low-pressure question. But I like to end these conversations by asking the guests for a recommendation of sorts for the listeners. And that can be anything from a book to a pair of socks to a brand of tea or wild about.
00:56:30
Speaker
So I'd extend that to you, Greg. Is there anything that comes to mind that you would recommend to the listener? Something that's making you really happy? You'd be like, you know what? I want to share some of this happiness. I don't know. This is really just broad, but find something you like doing and do it. I don't know. I mean, whether that's drinking good tea or wearing nice socks, as long as you're not hurting somebody else, I don't know. I just feel like we
00:56:58
Speaker
lack a lot of joy and we get wrapped up in too many small things with work or with families or whatever. But there are a lot of things that give people joy. I like to go out and shoot baskets or hit a tennis ball around or play golf or something. So I don't know. I would just say, go do those things. Get outside and enjoy nature.
00:57:19
Speaker
Do the things that you did when you were like 11 years old and you just did it because you wanted to play and you're like, I just feel like kind of fucking around and having fun. Exactly. We don't do that anymore. It brings joy to your life and presumably a lot of people just don't get the chance to do these and take the time to go for a hike and go run around, go skinny dipping in a lake or something. Who cares? It's fun for you and it doesn't harm anybody.
00:57:49
Speaker
fantastic well well greg working uh... people uh... you know find you are online and get more familiar with your work uh... i'll be totally honest i'm not great with the internet uh... or at least uh... being president on social media i am on twitter kind of uh... at greg brenica uh... and then of course you know normal email stuff uh... is is always always there if if you guys have questions uh... but yeah i don't have i don't have instagram or facebooker uh...
00:58:17
Speaker
I don't know. What was MySpace? I don't think that exists. Oh, yeah. Nice. That would be awesome if you had a MySpace page. I know. But I guess Twitter is probably the closest thing I have to social media. So that's probably the best way to go. Fantastic. Well, Greg, the book was a ton of fun. I had a ton of fun reading it. And it was wonderful getting to talk to you and expand upon some of the themes and the cool nuggets in this book. So thanks so much for the work. And thanks for coming on the show. Great. Really appreciate it, Brandon. It was fun.
Reflecting on Interview Techniques
00:58:53
Speaker
Alas, we've come to the end. Thanks to Greg for entertaining some of my more banal questions on the matter. Here, you kinda get a sense of how I'd interview someone for a feature or profile. Gotta ask stupid questions sometimes, and one stupid question I forgot to ask was about the orbits of the planets around the sun. Like, are all the planets on the same plane in our varying elliptical orbits?
00:59:20
Speaker
Or are we orbiting the Sun, say, I don't know, in the y-axis, like over the top and bottom, and say maybe Jupiter is zipping along the x-axis, you know, going east and west, or whatever. You kind of get the idea. Like, are we more like electrons around a nucleus, or are we all in line? I don't know.
00:59:44
Speaker
Damn it. I think I'm gonna have to email Greg. Maybe. Subscribe to the show. If you don't already, I mean, why wouldn't you? So that way you don't even have to think about it.
00:59:57
Speaker
We have so much decision fatigue. Why make this a decision? Let this thing just auto download to your favorite podcast app every Friday about 3 a.m. 3 a.m. Pacific I think that's when I schedule it for you think I'd know by now We're everywhere seeing efforts and if you have a moment leave a kind review on Apple podcasts or a rating on Spotify
01:00:23
Speaker
Okay, there's interviewing and then there's interviewing for story. I listened to a great episode of How Sound with Rob Rosenthal as he interviewed Alex Spiegel of this American Life producer about a story she made for this American Life. Love is a battleground from a few years ago. I'll include it in the next month's newsletter. First of the month, no spam, can't beat it. Alex says during that interview,
01:00:53
Speaker
quote, you have to gather an interview that gets you to every point in the narrative and gets them as them as the subject to reflect on every moment in the narrative and then deliver insight they glean from their experience.
01:01:06
Speaker
This is a particularly ira-glassian way of doing these radio stories. This is how you essentially write non-fiction that reads like novels. You've got to burrow into someone's head to get this kind of information out. I love asking people, you know, what do you make of that? You know, that way it gets them really thinking about it, and when they're saying they think about it, you can really internalize that in the prose part.
01:01:30
Speaker
Paraphrasing things and and it does read a bit more fluid like your favorite fiction I know many of you write memoir or want to and I can see the blunt blood Drain out of your out of people's faces when I tell them You got to interview people to write a better memoir
01:01:47
Speaker
asking questions of family members especially can feel kind of judgy like why did you do that weren't but uh good luck if you have a boomer father you're trying to mine for information they're like those pistachios that aren't even open and you're like fuck I want that pistachio and my fingers are all swollen from opening these other little fuckers and then this guy has the audacity to not even be open like I paid for that nut interviewing family is kind of like that
01:02:17
Speaker
I know you got it in you, so stay wild, see you in efforts, and if you can't do, interview, see ya.
01:02:58
Speaker
you