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Afterlife in Alabaster: A Canopic Jar from Charles Ede
52 Plays6 years ago
Join us on a journey to ancient Egypt as we explore the quirky material history and dead-serious religious significance of a very curious object: a 2,500-year-old Imsety-headed canopic jar—i.e., a vessel made to hold a mummy’s liver. Charis Tyndall of UK antiquities dealer Charles Ede guest stars.
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Transcript
Introduction to Canopic Jars in Mummification
00:00:00
Speaker
This is what we call a canopic jar.
00:00:02
Speaker
It's one of four jars that they would have that was used as part of the mummification process.
00:00:09
Speaker
And this one contained the liver.
00:00:11
Speaker
But it doesn't have the liver in it anymore.
00:00:13
Speaker
No, it doesn't, thank goodness.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:25
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Curious Objects.
00:00:27
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:28
Speaker
And I'm Michael Diaz-Griffith.
00:00:29
Speaker
Michael, I was obsessed with Egypt as a child.
00:00:31
Speaker
Were you?
00:00:32
Speaker
Completely.
00:00:33
Speaker
That's probably why we're here today.
00:00:35
Speaker
I'm sure it has something to do with it.
00:00:37
Speaker
And...
00:00:38
Speaker
Lucky for us, today's guest is Karis Tyndall of Charles Eid, who's a specialist in, among other things, ancient Egypt.
00:00:46
Speaker
I adore Karis.
00:00:48
Speaker
She is a winter show exhibitor, and she's young and so enthusiastic about the material that she handles.
00:00:54
Speaker
Absolutely infectious enthusiasm and a great scholar to boot.
00:00:58
Speaker
And she's going to be telling us about a truly fascinating object, a canopic jar.
Cultural Significance of Canopic Jars
00:01:04
Speaker
Now, all I know about canopic jars is that they held human organs.
00:01:10
Speaker
That's right.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:11
Speaker
And in fact, there were four key organs, each one associated with a particular canopic jar.
00:01:18
Speaker
And Karis is going to tell us all about the cultural significance of those jars and the religious and spiritual significance.
00:01:26
Speaker
But there's something a little bit grisly about it, isn't there?
00:01:29
Speaker
There is.
00:01:30
Speaker
And I think, you know, it's fascinating to think about human viscera that sort of travels down through the ages in these objects all the way to the probably the 19th century when they would have been either recovered by archaeologists or perhaps, you
00:01:47
Speaker
robbed from the tombs in which they sat for so long.
00:01:50
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:01:51
Speaker
I mean, we know about early tomb robbers who are after precious jewels.
00:01:55
Speaker
But in the 19th century, you know, with Napoleonic conquests and flourishing of interest in Europe in these artifacts of ancient civilization, you know, there are huge numbers of pieces that are excavated and explored and documented and studied, including, of course,
00:02:12
Speaker
famously mummies.
Western Fascination with Ancient Egypt
00:02:14
Speaker
And there's a really interesting historiography here, right?
00:02:18
Speaker
I mean, these artifacts, including the mummies, are taken on world tours.
00:02:22
Speaker
They're seen by thousands of people.
00:02:23
Speaker
They're obsessed over, and still today, you know, as children in grade school, is there any period of history that's more exciting, that's more enthralling than ancient Egypt?
00:02:34
Speaker
What do you think it is, Michael, that gets us so excited about that?
00:02:38
Speaker
I think that there's the distance of time, but there's also the idea that that civilization was so advanced.
00:02:44
Speaker
I mean, we're fascinated by prehistoric objects, right?
00:02:47
Speaker
Some of which are, well, all of which are earlier than these Egyptian artifacts, but we only know so much about them.
00:02:54
Speaker
The fact that we know so much about Egypt makes it particularly compelling.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah, you can really paint a rich picture of what life looked like and what their culture looked like, even though it's separated by millennia and by time and geography.
00:03:09
Speaker
And it's...
00:03:11
Speaker
It's simultaneously hard to imagine ourselves there, but so interesting to think about what it was like.
00:03:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:17
Speaker
And don't you feel like the West has always had a kind of obsession with Egypt, or at least over the past couple hundred years?
00:03:25
Speaker
It's like there's a dichotomy that's been set up between the West and Rome and Egypt.
00:03:30
Speaker
And we kind of grew up in that imaginary still.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if you look at even, you know, early 19th century sculpture, and I know about this through the world of silver, the great motifs for silver sculpture in the 1820s, 1830s, 1840s are ancient Roman and Greek motifs and ancient Egyptian motifs.
00:03:51
Speaker
Those are sort of the pillars, if you will, of the subject matter.
00:03:57
Speaker
And I think there's a reason for it.
00:03:58
Speaker
I mean, these aesthetic ideas dating back to the very concept of a pyramid or of a pharaoh's headdress that translate through the centuries that have formed the foundations of a lot of our ideas around Egypt.
00:04:17
Speaker
of course proportion but also um geometry uh and ornaments are capable of doing right i mean the pyramids being one of the wonders of the world and critically being proximate to europe right so that europeans could travel to egypt and depending on your viewpoint um
00:04:37
Speaker
act as researchers or marauders, but it was there.
Egypt's Accessibility and Cultural Exchange
00:04:41
Speaker
I mean, when we think about it, you know, Japan wasn't opened up to the West until the second half of the 19th century.
00:04:48
Speaker
And Egypt had been open to the West for, you know, since the Napoleonic era and earlier.
00:04:55
Speaker
So it's just been close and yet distant from our experience for a while now.
00:05:01
Speaker
We explored this a little a few months ago in our conversation with Philip Hewitt-Jabor about an alabaster vase.
00:05:10
Speaker
But he talks about the mining and quarrying of materials out of Egypt that are then transferred across the Mediterranean and used...
00:05:18
Speaker
Byzantium and in Rome and sculptural works and architectural works.
00:05:23
Speaker
So yeah, there's been a cross pollination for millennia, very long time.
00:05:29
Speaker
And and I know that as a child, I was taken to exhibitions of Egyptian artifacts.
00:05:35
Speaker
I remember watching documentaries about Egypt when I was sick, at home from school, and it kind of ruled my imagination.
00:05:42
Speaker
So I can't wait to hear what you and Karis discuss today.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'm excited to hear about these rather morbid objects.
00:05:50
Speaker
Let us know what happened to those livers and see you soon.
00:05:57
Speaker
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00:06:18
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00:06:25
Speaker
So, Karis Tindall, thank you so much for joining me for Curious Objects.
00:06:29
Speaker
KARIS TINDALL- Well, thank you for having me.
00:06:30
Speaker
And we're going to talk about an object that is
00:06:35
Speaker
I believe the oldest object that has ever been featured on Curious Objects.
00:06:39
Speaker
Oh, I like that.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:40
Speaker
I didn't know that.
00:06:41
Speaker
It's a real distinction.
00:06:42
Speaker
And that's because you deal in antiquities.
00:06:47
Speaker
And in this case, specifically, we're talking about ancient Egypt.
00:06:52
Speaker
So why don't you start out by telling me what this piece is and what it looks like?
00:06:57
Speaker
Sure.
00:06:58
Speaker
Well, this is what we call a canopic jar.
00:07:01
Speaker
It's made of calcite or alabaster, as people more often know it.
00:07:06
Speaker
It's a kind of creamy coloured banded stone.
00:07:10
Speaker
And the Egyptians used it quite a lot.
00:07:12
Speaker
It was very luminous, especially when light hitting it.
00:07:18
Speaker
So a canopic jar was one of four jars that they would have that was used as part of the mummification process.
00:07:30
Speaker
And so it's probably easiest to, when describing what this was, is to start right at the beginning, being the point of death.
00:07:40
Speaker
The beginning, right, or the end.
00:07:41
Speaker
The beginning of the Canopic Jars purpose, exactly.
Mummification Process and Role of Canopic Jars
00:07:44
Speaker
So the point at which... And it's what, two and a half feet tall?
00:07:49
Speaker
It is 32 centimeters.
00:07:53
Speaker
Right.
00:07:54
Speaker
Foot and a half tall.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:56
Speaker
So they come in, I mean, generally they're roughly about this size, but you're talking, you know, they use them for a few thousand years.
00:08:03
Speaker
So these have varied in the material that was used for them, from different stones to terracotta to faience, even that wonderful, brilliant blue material.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:08:16
Speaker
And the burial was very important for Egyptians because they believed in reincarnation.
00:08:23
Speaker
Thank you.
00:08:23
Speaker
And as a lot of cultures and societies do, when your life is particularly fraught, you have to think, well, there's got to be more than this.
00:08:31
Speaker
I have to work forward to something.
00:08:33
Speaker
Exactly, exactly.
00:08:34
Speaker
And the Egyptians felt this especially strongly.
00:08:37
Speaker
And they had sort of the lord of the underworld was, he was the good guy.
00:08:43
Speaker
You know, he was the person who, if he thought that you behaved well in the afterlife, he was the one who brought you back to life.
00:08:49
Speaker
So he was the ultimate person you wanted to please.
00:08:51
Speaker
And his name exactly was Osiris.
00:08:53
Speaker
And so these canopic jars, each one was sort of represented by one of the four sons of Horus.
00:09:05
Speaker
Now, Horus was the son of Osiris.
00:09:09
Speaker
It's all very complicated.
00:09:10
Speaker
And the Egyptian pantheon, you know, has all these different layers, but they move about a lot.
00:09:15
Speaker
You know, who's married to who, who had a child with whom, you know, whose sister and wife.
00:09:19
Speaker
There's no Bible with a consistent genealogy of it.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's a reasonably given structure, but of course, what people, exactly why people worship, you're talking about 3,000 years of history and belief, and Egypt was united and split up several times over those 3,000 years.
00:09:38
Speaker
So beliefs, you see veins running through that are consistent, but they of course change a bit when you have Ethiopians ruling as pharaohs or Persians ruling as pharaohs.
00:09:50
Speaker
They're all Egyptian in inverted commas.
00:09:54
Speaker
But of course they've brought their own... That's apostrophes for, or quotation marks for American listeners.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:00
Speaker
I'm doing the two fingers up by my head when I say that.
00:10:05
Speaker
So yes, so you can, you know, you see the way that people are represented change as well.
00:10:09
Speaker
But anyway, sorry, to go back.
00:10:12
Speaker
So when somebody died, you had 70 days with which to prepare them for burial and put them under the ground.
00:10:18
Speaker
What happened at the end of 70 days?
00:10:21
Speaker
you were in the ground.
00:10:22
Speaker
It had to be done.
00:10:23
Speaker
And if it wasn't done by 70 days, you might not.
00:10:24
Speaker
Well, no one writes about that.
00:10:25
Speaker
You probably pretended that it hadn't been that long.
00:10:28
Speaker
I don't know.
00:10:28
Speaker
But that's the rule.
00:10:30
Speaker
70 days.
00:10:31
Speaker
Exactly.
00:10:31
Speaker
I've not heard of someone go, oh, whoops, sorry, and scratch out.
00:10:35
Speaker
Exactly.
00:10:37
Speaker
I think they're just pretend.
00:10:39
Speaker
But anyway, so the idea was you had 70 days in which to embalm the body and complete all the rituals and to mourn and to bury them.
00:10:50
Speaker
So part of the process of mummification was the removal of the most important organs within the body and the preservation of them.
00:11:02
Speaker
The organs they didn't deem important, they disposed of.
00:11:05
Speaker
Including the brain.
00:11:06
Speaker
Exactly.
00:11:07
Speaker
Which they hoiked out through the nose.
00:11:09
Speaker
They thought it was a load of mush and they just, in essence, disposed of it.
00:11:13
Speaker
That's so contrary to common popular perception of today.
00:11:20
Speaker
I know.
00:11:20
Speaker
But what's rather romantic, though, is they understood the notion of a brain, but what they thought drove you and your decision-making was your heart, which is rather beautiful, actually.
00:11:31
Speaker
So the heart...
00:11:31
Speaker
They believe to be the most important organ because they believe that's where your soul lived and that's what made you make the decisions you do in life.
00:11:39
Speaker
I think that's that that's very beautiful.
00:11:41
Speaker
It is a little philosophically interesting about locating the core of yourself somewhere other than where your eyes are.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's true.
00:11:53
Speaker
I hadn't thought about that.
00:11:54
Speaker
Anyway, not to get off subject here.
00:11:58
Speaker
So the brain is not important, but the four critical organs are... Yes, well, the heart was removed, preserved, and put back in the body because they needed to make sure that when the soul... They knew when you died, the soul would leave your body, but they needed to make sure that in the afterlife it knew to come back to your body.
00:12:18
Speaker
So it needed to go back to that resting place in essence.
00:12:21
Speaker
So anyway, then the four organs that they deemed the most important were the lungs, liver, stomach and intestines.
00:12:29
Speaker
And each one of those were then treated, preserved and put in one of the four canopic jars.
00:12:35
Speaker
And one of the four sons of Horus looked after, each one had a specific organ that they looked after.
00:12:43
Speaker
Gosh, what a bad lot for Horace's sons.
00:12:46
Speaker
I know, a bit of a grim loss, isn't it?
00:12:48
Speaker
I mean, can you imagine being born into the job of looking after everyone's livers?
00:12:52
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:12:54
Speaker
I know.
00:12:56
Speaker
And what I rather like about it as well is that they all had a different physical appearance.
00:13:02
Speaker
So up until around the 19th dynasty, which is the new kingdom.
00:13:11
Speaker
Can you give me a date range here?
00:13:13
Speaker
Oh, until about, gosh, what are we looking at?
00:13:17
Speaker
About sort of 1200 BC, 1300, 1200 BC.
00:13:22
Speaker
So just 3,300 years ago, give or take.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:28
Speaker
The four sons of Horus were human-headed.
00:13:30
Speaker
And then they started being represented as, and I'll give you the different names.
00:13:35
Speaker
So there was Imseti, who stayed human-headed, and he contained the liver.
00:13:40
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:41
Speaker
Kebisenref was falcon-headed, and he contained the intestines.
00:13:48
Speaker
Happy.
00:13:49
Speaker
Happy.
00:13:50
Speaker
H-A-P-I.
00:13:51
Speaker
Got it.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah, an important distinction.
00:13:53
Speaker
Quite sweet, though, anyway.
00:13:55
Speaker
Sounds like a cheerful one.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yep.
00:13:57
Speaker
Happy was the baboon-headed.
00:14:00
Speaker
He looked after the lungs.
00:14:01
Speaker
Duamutef was the jackal-headed and looked after the stomach.
00:14:06
Speaker
Got it.
00:14:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:14:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:14:08
Speaker
And so there were four jars, each one dedicated to one of these organs, and each one looked after by one of the sons of Horus, the grandsons of Osiris.
00:14:19
Speaker
And they were kept separate from the body for what reason?
00:14:23
Speaker
Well, the body needed to be, in order for it to be preserved, and of course when you find mummies now, you know, the hairs there, the teeth there, I mean, it's amazing how successfully they preserved these bodies.
00:14:34
Speaker
They had to remove all of the moisture from them.
00:14:37
Speaker
And they actually, in fact, then padded out the body, so they kept their form, having removed all the moisture, and left them out in the sun as well to really dry them
Historical Journey of Canopic Jars
00:14:45
Speaker
out.
00:14:45
Speaker
They then padded them out with straw or linen, and then wrapped them, so you know that way you see them now in the kind of wrapped mummies form
00:14:54
Speaker
yeah i've seen those movies yeah exactly sort of like loo roll dangling off arms that kind of thing um yes so they exactly so they the um they would then be put in a sarcophagus and separate to the sarcophagus but in the tomb would be these canopic jars um and they're buried with all sorts of other things um you know to help them in the afterlife um
00:15:17
Speaker
And anyway, so yes, so these jars, and in fact, in later periods, when you get to the late period, sometimes you even see in late periods starting from 664 BC up until 332 BC when King, well, Alexander the Great and Ptolemy came into Egypt.
00:15:35
Speaker
And then you start to see things changing a bit because, of course, they brought, and then the aristocracy with them, of course, brought their own beliefs.
00:15:42
Speaker
And they certainly didn't believe in animal-headed deities.
00:15:45
Speaker
Right.
00:15:46
Speaker
But some of them you'd even see, they became symbolic.
00:15:51
Speaker
So yeah, they actually didn't contain anything in the latter part sometimes.
00:15:55
Speaker
Oh, interesting.
00:15:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:56
Speaker
But this one, however, is hollow and it did contain.
00:16:01
Speaker
So it was Imseti.
00:16:02
Speaker
And which one is the Imseti?
00:16:03
Speaker
Human-headed, okay.
00:16:05
Speaker
And contained the liver.
00:16:07
Speaker
Right.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yes.
00:16:09
Speaker
But it doesn't have the liver in it anymore.
00:16:11
Speaker
No, it doesn't, thank goodness.
00:16:13
Speaker
I think that would be far too gory.
00:16:15
Speaker
I'm not sure I'd feel this comfortable going near it.
00:16:18
Speaker
In fact, when a lot of these, I mean, this was discovered a long time ago, and I think when people did rediscover them, I think they tended to be cleaned out.
00:16:25
Speaker
You know, these things, you know, Egyptomania started, you know, so back when, well, really in a major scale when Napoleon conquered Egypt.
00:16:32
Speaker
Right.
00:16:33
Speaker
And so from then, of course, their practices of excavation were very different to what we do now.
00:16:37
Speaker
Of course, nothing excavated now would leave Egypt.
00:16:41
Speaker
And they would preserve and that, you know, they probably wouldn't even open them.
00:16:44
Speaker
You know, you want to look after what you can there.
00:16:47
Speaker
But of course, back then they were, you know, these things were being sent off.
00:16:50
Speaker
It was the Wild West, East, as you will.
00:16:52
Speaker
Well, and a lot, you know, and in a way it's good these things are dispersed because now all major museums can be filled with these things and private collections, but it's led the greater world to understand ancient Egypt.
00:17:03
Speaker
You know, we all know that it's part of world culture is the dissemination of knowledge and that one of the best ways to do that is through material objects.
00:17:10
Speaker
Right.
00:17:11
Speaker
So let's come back in a minute to the question of provenance and dispersion and distribution and so on.
00:17:18
Speaker
But I want to focus on this specific object for the moment.
00:17:24
Speaker
How do you know that this particular pot is dedicated to Imseti?
00:17:32
Speaker
Well, because we know the period that it was made, both stylistically but also because of the hieroglyphic inscription on the front, it says it was for Henat, who was a priest of Tar, Tar being the sort of the god of creators and craftsmen, architects, that kind of thing, he was very important for it.
00:17:50
Speaker
And this name is known and attested to in other, you know, in the role that he had.
00:17:55
Speaker
And so we know that he was from the 26th dynasty.
00:18:00
Speaker
And so, and that's of 664 to 525 BC.
00:18:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:05
Speaker
And so because of that we know during this period that the canopic jars all had the heads depending on which son of Horus they were.
00:18:14
Speaker
Of course prior to the 19th dynasty you might not know because they were all human headed.
00:18:19
Speaker
So because this is the human headed one from the late period, 26th dynasty, we know it must be in Seti.
00:18:24
Speaker
And in fact there's an old collection label on the underside of the lid where he's called as Kebesenwerf which was the falcon headed one which is in fact incorrect.
00:18:33
Speaker
So when it was discovered, of course, people have been... Our understanding of these objects has massively changed over time.
00:18:40
Speaker
As, you know, for example, the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, you know, people couldn't even translate this stuff for such a long time, you know, and so people would still try and say, oh, this dates to this, or this belonged to this person.
00:18:53
Speaker
So obviously when this, you know, in the 19th century, when it was first given whoever it was that said...
00:19:00
Speaker
and it's a 19th century hand that has written this on it, they just got it wrong, it happens.
00:19:04
Speaker
I have to say, looking at it, it's hard to imagine that this head is that of a falcon.
00:19:11
Speaker
No, but that's what I mean.
00:19:13
Speaker
The person didn't know.
00:19:14
Speaker
Whoever wrote that was not aware that at this period it would have had a falcon head if it were the individual, the sum that they thought it was.
00:19:25
Speaker
And so that person misinterpreted the hieroglyphic text perhaps or just made a guess and got it wrong or something like that.
00:19:33
Speaker
Whatever.
00:19:34
Speaker
Maybe he just stuck the wrong label to the wrong vase.
00:19:36
Speaker
I mean, there's a whole load of reasons why they might have put it on incorrectly.
00:19:40
Speaker
Fair enough.
00:19:41
Speaker
But now we know this to be Imseti.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yes, and it is certainly a recognisable human.
00:19:48
Speaker
It most definitely is.
00:19:49
Speaker
And a very fine one as well, we might add.
00:19:52
Speaker
The form of the head actually resemble other depictions of Imseti and other media.
00:19:58
Speaker
Is it a well-defined face or is it just a face that...
00:20:03
Speaker
It's a face wearing a wig, a plain bag wig, and it's tucked behind the ears.
00:20:08
Speaker
And as you can see, it stops being a wig and turns into a lid, and so it tucks up right under the chin.
00:20:15
Speaker
The head, it's just a human head.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:18
Speaker
Him said he didn't have a specific head or a specific facial features.
00:20:23
Speaker
No, exactly, nothing abnormal notes of third eye or anything that means you can pick them out.
00:20:28
Speaker
No, it was just in whatever way that the, I guess, whoever the craftsman was, you know, put a face on this lid, there you go, this is going to be the god.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
So what do you know or what can you deduce about where it came from, who or what kind of person might have had his or her liver put in this?
Social Status and Burial Practices
00:20:53
Speaker
Well, we know, and it would both men and women underwent this process of mummification.
00:20:59
Speaker
And
00:21:01
Speaker
you know, the richer you were, the more money you would put in to, and the more importance of your social standing, that was often equated with wealth.
00:21:09
Speaker
And so you would want your, sort of, all of the things you're buried with to,
00:21:16
Speaker
be as lavish as possible, really, in the richest materials.
00:21:21
Speaker
It's the opposite of the idea that you can't take it with you, right?
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:26
Speaker
You really did take it with you.
00:21:27
Speaker
And we see people being buried with things that were clearly, because they have no signs of use whatsoever, they were obviously made for burial.
00:21:35
Speaker
For burial, right.
00:21:35
Speaker
Because they said, right, I want this.
00:21:36
Speaker
And they also believed that, you know, the more times your name was seen and read by people, that the greater the chance was that you would live on.
00:21:45
Speaker
I mean,
00:21:45
Speaker
And again, I think quite philosophically, they believed that so long as your name is uttered or people know your name or your name said by people, that your memory is alive and therefore you are alive.
00:21:58
Speaker
And actually that's quite beautiful because you can get into the idea of what is life and death and it's something that we all actually in a modern age battle with all the time.
00:22:05
Speaker
You know, the idea of someone being brain dead, but their body's still alive.
00:22:08
Speaker
At what point is someone alive?
00:22:09
Speaker
dead and they had this idea that so long as you said their name so people would would try and make sure that people still richly sacrificed them or would still celebrate them because so long as people knew them they were alive in some element and some form yeah and until they were reincarnated by um osiris they needed that right right um so this man
00:22:31
Speaker
And of course we know who he is because he wrote all about it on the Canopic Jar and indeed on the others and, you know, shabtis have been found as well.
00:22:39
Speaker
And so we know these important roles that he had within society, in essence, what his job was.
00:22:48
Speaker
You know, being a priest was a really, it was a powerful position to have and you would have ended up, you know,
00:22:55
Speaker
acquiring quite a lot of wealth and quite a few assets with it at the time.
00:23:00
Speaker
And so certainly, and obviously because you would have been deeply religious, you would put all of that or as much as you could into your burial.
00:23:07
Speaker
Right.
00:23:08
Speaker
So I've got, I don't know if you're interested, do you want me to read out what it says?
00:23:11
Speaker
The inscription?
00:23:12
Speaker
I'd love to hear what it says.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:14
Speaker
So the inscription on the front in hieroglyphs, and it's been carved and then picked out in a black pigment, says words spoken by Isis.
00:23:27
Speaker
Isis was the sister wife of Osiris.
00:23:31
Speaker
So words spoken by Isis.
00:23:34
Speaker
I seize the enemy, I give protection to Imceti who is in me.
00:23:38
Speaker
The protection of the God's Father, Priest, Scribe of the Temple of Tar, Henat born to Tar-Shirt-Ihet, true of voice, is the protection of Imceti.
00:23:48
Speaker
The Osiris, God's Father, Priest, Scribe of the Temple of Tar, Henat born to Tar-Shirt-Ihet, true of voice, is Imceti.
00:23:57
Speaker
So you can see there, again, the repetition, this idea, you want to constantly repeat your name and the important people's names because it really drills it on home.
00:24:04
Speaker
That's more of an epitaph than most people get today.
00:24:07
Speaker
That's just for his liver.
00:24:09
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:10
Speaker
But when you see these, whenever you see sarcophagi, they've just got line after line after line.
00:24:15
Speaker
And a lot of it's actually very formulaic, true voice, words like that.
00:24:18
Speaker
You see that kind of thing repeated over and over.
00:24:21
Speaker
So people say to me, oh, can you read hieroglyphs?
00:24:23
Speaker
And I'm, you know...
00:24:25
Speaker
Of course, I've done courses on it, some things, but this is a language that changed over 3,000 years.
00:24:30
Speaker
It's like saying, oh, yes, you know, Chaucer is the same as if you go to Glasgow, and someone will read Trainspotting.
00:24:36
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:24:38
Speaker
It's the same language, but it changes drastically with time.
00:24:42
Speaker
But because there are little set phrases that they still use, I can understand, say, what all the different individual hieroglyphs, what letter it might mean, but how exactly you translate it might change.
00:24:53
Speaker
But things like this...
00:24:54
Speaker
are quite formulaic and they do tend to stay with time.
00:24:57
Speaker
They don't change massively.
00:24:59
Speaker
So he was a priest and therefore wealthy and interested in preserving his legacy and in carrying a certain number of his possessions with him into the afterlife.
00:25:12
Speaker
Where would he have been buried?
00:25:14
Speaker
Where did this vessel come from?
00:25:17
Speaker
So this one, I believe, was at Saqqara.
00:25:20
Speaker
You get these huge...
00:25:24
Speaker
sort of areas where people would all just be buried.
00:25:28
Speaker
I mean, they'd have to be just outside of major cities.
00:25:30
Speaker
Of course, that's really always been the case.
00:25:32
Speaker
It's, you know, they make it for religious reasons, but the practicalities are you don't want decomposing bodies too near cities.
00:25:39
Speaker
It's just, it's bad, you know, in sort of the wilderness and the wildness of a desert.
00:25:45
Speaker
You don't want to be attracting all the bad animals.
00:25:47
Speaker
And they also needed space.
00:25:49
Speaker
And, you know, there was...
00:25:51
Speaker
And they were all buried together.
00:25:52
Speaker
There'd be whole infrastructure around it as well.
00:25:55
Speaker
And you see, I mean, next to these huge sort of precincts and mortuary temples and that kind of thing, you can see entire villages set up where everybody who was there had some role in funerary rites or the embalming process.
00:26:09
Speaker
And that's really interesting when people rediscover this.
00:26:11
Speaker
And we've learned so much from when they discover even just like the dumping ground outside of these, you know, the pits where we chuck now.
00:26:18
Speaker
You think of, in essence, landfill.
00:26:20
Speaker
And so with little things that you see outside of these areas, you know, where people have written, you know, their scrap paper of the time would just be, you know, either bits of particularly flat rock that they might have got or shards, mainly what we call ostraca, shards of terracotta, of pottery, where they'd write things on and people would take notes.
00:26:38
Speaker
And these things have all been dumped in these sites.
00:26:41
Speaker
And actually it's taught us a lot about the areas where people have been buried and, you know, sort of what the purpose was of the people who lived on the outskirts of that.
00:26:53
Speaker
We'll be back in just a minute.
00:26:54
Speaker
Just a quick reminder, as always, you can see photos of the Canopic Jar online at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast or on my Instagram at Objective Interest or Michael's at Michael Diaz Griffith.
00:27:06
Speaker
Also, wherever you're listening right now, it would be fantastic if you subscribe if you haven't already and leave a rating and review.
00:27:11
Speaker
That really helps people to find us.
00:27:13
Speaker
Thanks.
00:27:34
Speaker
Established in 1923 in the Rose Valley arts and crafts community, Hedro Theater is America's longest serving repertory theater.
00:27:42
Speaker
The works from the collection represent the indelible influence of the performing arts on Eshrich, widely regarded as one of the most significant studio woodworkers of the 20th century.
00:27:51
Speaker
Freeman's, Philadelphia's auction house, sharing the world of art, design, and jewelry with you, wherever you are.
Periods of Unification in Egypt
00:28:00
Speaker
We're talking burial in the 13th century BC.
00:28:05
Speaker
Well, so this guy was buried 7th century.
00:28:10
Speaker
Oh, sorry.
00:28:11
Speaker
So he was 26th dynasty.
00:28:13
Speaker
OK.
00:28:14
Speaker
Which is late dynastic period.
00:28:15
Speaker
Right, right, right.
00:28:16
Speaker
Which was the last hurrah before everything changed and the Ptolemies came in and then the Romans conquered.
00:28:23
Speaker
OK.
00:28:23
Speaker
So he's living on the cusp of major change in Egypt.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, he did, absolutely.
00:28:29
Speaker
I mean, you get four times in Egyptian history where Upper and Lower Egypt were unified.
00:28:34
Speaker
And this was the final time.
00:28:37
Speaker
And it was, you know, Old Kingdom, then you have your first intermediate period where it all split up again.
00:28:42
Speaker
And then you have Middle Kingdom, second intermediate period, New Kingdom, third intermediate period, and then the late dynastic period.
00:28:48
Speaker
And so this was the 26th dynasty.
00:28:51
Speaker
Some say 25th is kind of at the beginning, but it was different rulers.
00:28:55
Speaker
It was, say, this is 26th dynasty where...
00:29:00
Speaker
yeah in essence where the the wealth and power there is a center of it again in egypt and um and it lasted for about 300 years until alexander the great and all his wondrousness came in and and conquered you know most of what was their known world certainly um and then yeah and he he ruled it for a very short period of time before he died and of course ptolemy took over
00:29:24
Speaker
Sure, and the
Rediscovery and Modern Collections of Artifacts
00:29:25
Speaker
rest is history.
00:29:25
Speaker
But in the meantime, we have our priest's liver sitting in this pot in a tomb in Saqqara, you said?
00:29:33
Speaker
Yes.
00:29:34
Speaker
And then centuries pass, and what happens?
00:29:38
Speaker
What happens to this pot, and how does it end up in London and in New York City?
00:29:44
Speaker
For this exact vase, I wish we knew.
00:29:48
Speaker
One of the things is, of course, people have been... You had tomb robbers.
00:29:53
Speaker
At the time, I mean, when they knew that there had been a great burial and there was a lot of welfare, you know, people would go in and nick everything they could back out of it.
00:30:03
Speaker
Of course, there were people trying to stop that from happening.
00:30:05
Speaker
Rolling big boulders down their hallways.
00:30:09
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:10
Speaker
Cursing everyone who stands and goes within a square marble.
00:30:14
Speaker
No, exactly.
00:30:15
Speaker
It clearly did happen in antiquity.
00:30:19
Speaker
Mainly the tombs that were ransacked in antiquity and robbed were of pharaohs.
00:30:25
Speaker
They seemed to be the great ones.
00:30:26
Speaker
But when these things are rediscovered now, we can't tell at what point always when they will have already been, whether they were looted.
00:30:36
Speaker
And we know now whether or not it's been a proper excavation.
00:30:39
Speaker
However, people have been excavating, as I say, in a major way since Napoleon.
00:30:47
Speaker
and records are kept but when you know that the state would allow excavations both by private individuals, by other nations were allowed to come in and then there was a system called partage, which was very common.
00:31:03
Speaker
So say, and in fact a lot of the MET's collection now, they would go, they would gather funds
00:31:09
Speaker
They would say to the Egyptians, right, can we go and excavate this area?
00:31:12
Speaker
They would agree.
00:31:13
Speaker
They'd go in, excavate, and then they would split what was found, and they'd keep all the records.
00:31:18
Speaker
And that's how a lot of this stuff has historically got onto the market, because it either came back to the institution, but also a lot of these things were privately funded too, and so they just let the people take those away.
00:31:30
Speaker
And that's what happens with Carter and Tutankhamen's tomb, right?
00:31:35
Speaker
Exactly.
00:31:35
Speaker
Famously.
00:31:36
Speaker
Exactly.
00:31:38
Speaker
But another way that things got onto the market, and this is sort of the way that is perhaps less well known and less spoken about, is that, you know, Egypt had a flourishing antiquities trade until 1983, which is incredibly recently.
00:31:51
Speaker
You know, the government gave licences to, you know, a lot of vendors within sort of the...
00:32:01
Speaker
around Cairo Museum and even within Cairo Museum you could buy antiquities and so there's very little record of exactly what they sold from these and if the records exist I don't know how you know people don't you know can't really get their hands on it so how exactly this left the country we don't know we know how long it's
00:32:19
Speaker
It's been around for, but a lot of pieces could have, up until 1983, there was, as I say, this flourishing trade.
00:32:27
Speaker
And those things aren't as well recorded because there were a lot of excavations in Egypt.
00:32:33
Speaker
Something was discovered, or even there would be a sandstorm, and it would blow the sand off.
00:32:38
Speaker
And you just see amulets.
00:32:39
Speaker
I mean, people, and you hear travellers talking about this during the Grand Tour, them walking through Egypt, walking, sort of going in one of those caravan trips and...
00:32:47
Speaker
and they look down and they just see amulets in the sand wow you know and and so what do you do well you pick them up don't you or you just leave them there because you know back then especially oh it's just an amulet that you know they were discovering great huge you know um sort of sculptures and and temples and things that were much more exciting um but a lot of people of course did collect them and keep them but it's because of this it's all you know it's
00:33:11
Speaker
It's wonderful if you know the exact fine spot of something, but it's not always possible.
00:33:17
Speaker
However, if you know when you have an object like this that has a name, sometimes it's possible to go back and you can find if the tomb has been discovered and there can be writings on tomb walls.
00:33:27
Speaker
And so you can say, OK, like with shabtis, a lot of shabtis, we know exactly when the tomb was discovered.
00:33:33
Speaker
And so say you've got a shabti.
00:33:36
Speaker
The recent provenance has been lost because somebody didn't keep their paperwork and they died and their ancestors inherited it.
00:33:41
Speaker
And they come to you and say, look, we've got the shabti.
00:33:43
Speaker
And you go, well, OK, great.
00:33:45
Speaker
What's the provenance?
00:33:46
Speaker
And they go, well, we don't know.
00:33:47
Speaker
But you know the shabti.
00:33:49
Speaker
It's very specific.
00:33:51
Speaker
And it's one of, you know, several.
00:33:53
Speaker
Like we have one at the moment.
00:33:55
Speaker
And we know that 332 were discovered.
00:33:57
Speaker
We know all about the excavation.
00:33:59
Speaker
But then guess what?
00:33:59
Speaker
These were dispersed all across Europe and America.
00:34:03
Speaker
And it came back to us, you know, with a provenance to, I think, just the 80s.
00:34:07
Speaker
They didn't know more than that.
00:34:08
Speaker
But of course, we know when it left.
00:34:10
Speaker
We know exactly what tomb it's come from.
00:34:12
Speaker
And we know that that's where they went.
00:34:13
Speaker
So there are really interesting ways.
00:34:15
Speaker
And a lot of what you have to do is try and track back and just find out where these things have come from.
Changes in Cultural Heritage Laws
00:34:20
Speaker
It's kind of like the modern way, you know, the way you're sort of in a library, you do your own version of archaeology.
00:34:25
Speaker
Because you're just trying to work out.
00:34:27
Speaker
And it makes these pieces more important and more interesting.
00:34:31
Speaker
And what happened in 1983?
00:34:32
Speaker
Oh, they just decided not that the internal laws on cultural heritage changed.
00:34:39
Speaker
And they said no more exporting of these goods without licenses.
00:34:43
Speaker
And they stopped granting licenses and they shut down all of the vendors.
00:34:47
Speaker
They said they don't want to do that anymore.
00:34:49
Speaker
Right.
00:34:50
Speaker
And so for almost 40 years now, there's been no export trade of antiquities from Egypt.
00:34:56
Speaker
No, exactly.
00:34:57
Speaker
At least not legally.
00:34:59
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, that's a very contentious thing.
00:35:03
Speaker
There is no trade.
00:35:04
Speaker
I mean, whether something happens or not, who knows that site, but it's certainly not legal, definitely.
00:35:12
Speaker
And when you asked me that, I was sitting there trying to think, because a lot of countries have these laws, but they still let things out sometimes.
00:35:20
Speaker
Italy will still grant export licenses, even though you're not allowed to just buy things and take them out of the country.
00:35:25
Speaker
You can apply for a license.
00:35:27
Speaker
And I was trying to think, but I don't know of Egyptian pieces that have been granted licenses since then.
00:35:33
Speaker
I've seen licenses up until that period and pieces that are still on the market of people who are still dealing, you know, they've kept their paperwork.
00:35:41
Speaker
um because occasionally the egyptians will try and say that they um deny that they granted export licenses for objects and so i know some people have gone well here it is in the interest of trying to repatriate exactly which is now an uh an issue that's been in the news um recent months um efforts to repatriate egyptian antiquities yes absolutely and and you know and i it's
00:36:05
Speaker
there's a fine line between what people believe should happen morally and what can happen legally.
00:36:10
Speaker
And turning around to a museum and asking for an object back because you don't really like that they own it and you say they might have taken it in a time of war or something.
00:36:20
Speaker
That's a very hot topic at the moment.
00:36:21
Speaker
Which the Egyptian government is doing.
00:36:23
Speaker
Yes, and a lot of people are doing it and it's very much for those bodies involved to decide what they want to do, really.
00:36:31
Speaker
It's sort of hard for...
00:36:32
Speaker
for us to cast too much judgment on these things really.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:37
Speaker
Tell me about, I want to turn to you for a minute, because you're an anomaly in our field, which is to say a young dealer who's a deep and serious specialist in an area that
00:36:52
Speaker
You know, the antiquities trade is not exactly friendly to newcomers.
Karis Tyndall's Journey and Passion
00:36:58
Speaker
I mean, in other words, it's a capital intensive business.
00:37:03
Speaker
It's an education intensive business.
00:37:08
Speaker
How did you...
00:37:11
Speaker
How did you come to decide to invest your time and your energy into these particular objects?
00:37:18
Speaker
Gosh, it was a very, very natural thing, really.
00:37:23
Speaker
I think as with a lot of children, you know, I was very...
00:37:26
Speaker
fascinated by the ancient world.
00:37:28
Speaker
I mean, the stories are just amazing, aren't they?
00:37:30
Speaker
You know, whether it's Greek, Roman, Egyptian, all of it, these, you know, everything was very sort of grand armies and huge amounts of wealth and these sort of incredible gods and goddesses that did the most wild things, you know, and... Jackal heads and livers in pots.
00:37:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:47
Speaker
Exactly.
00:37:48
Speaker
Who isn't sort of enthralled by that as a youngster?
00:37:51
Speaker
And, you know, getting a formal education is becoming rarer and rarer.
00:37:56
Speaker
And although I, you know, I studied Latin from a young age, you know, and you hear a lot of the stories with that, you know, when you go to senior school, a lot of that falls by the wayside.
00:38:05
Speaker
But I decided to do ancient history and classical archaeology at university.
00:38:11
Speaker
And so my love of the ancient world was strengthened and I started to actually properly understand it.
00:38:17
Speaker
It wasn't just, you know, gosh, aren't these buildings wonderful, you know, and weren't these philosophers doing, weren't they sort of pioneering and being amazed at how people, you know, the crossover between science and religion and power and how all the ways are all intertwined.
00:38:34
Speaker
And you started to understand it more and more.
00:38:37
Speaker
And I mean, after my first year at university, I met Jamie Eade, who took over the company from his father, Charles Eade, who was the founder of the company, who'd previously founded Folio Society, became Folio Fine Arts.
00:38:56
Speaker
Oh, I didn't realize that.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:38:58
Speaker
And he, so he started- Busy guy.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, very busy and incredibly knowledgeable.
00:39:03
Speaker
I mean, an amazing man.
00:39:06
Speaker
And as is Jamie.
00:39:08
Speaker
And Jamie started working for his father when he was 23, actually, and has done nothing since other than, I mean, that, you know,
00:39:15
Speaker
You just fall in love with this world and it's very, very difficult to leave.
00:39:19
Speaker
Why would you?
00:39:20
Speaker
You have to be driven away from it.
00:39:22
Speaker
Even now, Jamie, you know, sort of officially retired, but absolutely, you know, we chat all the time and he's still constantly looking at objects and learning and doing work.
00:39:31
Speaker
You know, you never leave, you know, you never leave these industries really.
00:39:34
Speaker
But anyway, so I met Jamie and I suddenly found, you know, oh my goodness, these things, it's still a thriving market.
Appeal of Ancient Objects in Modern Context
00:39:42
Speaker
Of course it is.
00:39:43
Speaker
Collections need to be added to, and as soon as they stop being added to, things become stagnant and people stop going to see them and people stop academic research.
00:39:54
Speaker
It sort of halts in a lot of these fields.
00:39:58
Speaker
And the excitement of being able to own these objects and hold them, and I have to say in the time that I worked with Jamie, after, I then worked with him throughout my undergraduate and then my master's degree in specialising ancient Rome.
00:40:13
Speaker
And within my first year of working full-time at Charles Ede, I knew so much more than I'd learned in four years of full-time education because handling these objects and spending your time day in, day out with them, it does that.
00:40:26
Speaker
And I just thought, so long as I'm allowed to do this, you know, that's it, I absolutely will.
00:40:33
Speaker
I mean, it's a wonderful... And you're still all out.
00:40:35
Speaker
It's academic and it's aesthetic.
00:40:37
Speaker
You know, and I think it's still art and it's history at the same time.
00:40:42
Speaker
I mean, what I love about these things is that they can appeal to a whole raft of people for a whole load of reasons.
00:40:47
Speaker
You know, I know a lot of what we said and when we go into all the nitty gritties of this vase and what makes it important.
00:40:54
Speaker
What's also wonderful as you look at it, it's a beautiful work of art.
00:40:58
Speaker
You can stop there if you want to.
00:40:59
Speaker
Sure.
00:41:00
Speaker
You know, you can say, oh, it's, you know, two and a half thousand years old and I love the look of it.
00:41:05
Speaker
You know, you can stop there.
00:41:06
Speaker
You can think, oh, I love what it represents.
00:41:09
Speaker
You can love the material.
00:41:10
Speaker
You can love the craftsmanship.
00:41:12
Speaker
You know, you think, gosh, what tools they use to make that.
00:41:14
Speaker
You know, there are so many ways in.
00:41:17
Speaker
Maybe you just need a pot to put your liver in.
00:41:20
Speaker
Maybe you've got great plans for your own burial.
00:41:24
Speaker
But it's wonderful.
00:41:24
Speaker
And the people you meet as well because of it are so varied.
00:41:28
Speaker
And I really enjoy that, you know, from sort of teachers who collect amulets because they love inspiring their students, you know, whether they're teaching eight year olds or 18 year olds, you know, or actually as I found it at university, my most inspiring lecturer,
00:41:45
Speaker
was the man who taught me, I did the origins of numismatics and he collected coins.
00:41:52
Speaker
And he every, there were only four of us in the class.
00:41:55
Speaker
And he would bring in anywhere between five and 20 coins every single glass.
00:42:00
Speaker
And that's what we would be learning.
00:42:01
Speaker
And it's thrilling to hold these things in your hand and to turn them about and understand them.
00:42:06
Speaker
And so knowing that you're adding to that, but also being able to experience it every day, I love it.
00:42:13
Speaker
People coming onto the stand, you know, someone collects glass, for example, you know, Venetian glass, and they come and say, gosh, what?
00:42:20
Speaker
what's this?
00:42:20
Speaker
I feel like I recognise it, but it's not quite right.
00:42:24
Speaker
And suddenly they learn, oh, it's Roman glass.
00:42:26
Speaker
And they have an understanding of it and looking at it through a set of eyes and with their own knowledge and expertise in a way that I've probably never looked at it.
00:42:35
Speaker
And I love what then happens, the interaction between you and this object and what they're saying and they can teach you as well is fantastic.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I like that these people who are coming at it from different angles as well
00:42:50
Speaker
It shows you how broad something like antiquities can be in terms of who wants to collect them.
00:42:56
Speaker
You know, we do, as you know, we also do the spring tefaf, the contemporary one out here in the armory.
00:43:04
Speaker
And there's, you know, we thought, oh, gosh, I wonder how this is going to go.
00:43:06
Speaker
You know, it's very new for us.
00:43:09
Speaker
Very old things and a very contemporary show.
00:43:11
Speaker
Exactly.
00:43:12
Speaker
It's not just modern, it's contemporary.
00:43:14
Speaker
And people love it.
00:43:15
Speaker
It's so well received.
00:43:17
Speaker
It's almost there's nothing more new than something that's 5,000 years old.
00:43:22
Speaker
Or is it more exciting?
00:43:25
Speaker
And if Christie's can sell a Leonardo at a contemporary auction, then why can't you show Antiquities at a contemporary art fair?
00:43:34
Speaker
Because there are things about these, about whether it's a fragment of an inscription or even if it's a piece of jewellery, there can be something immediate about it.
00:43:43
Speaker
There can also be something deeply romantic about it.
00:43:46
Speaker
And people can see a lot of it because we deal in a lot of fragments as well.
00:43:50
Speaker
A fragment of a face that shows an eye and maybe the corner of a mouth can be much more alluring sometimes than a complete sculpture.
00:43:59
Speaker
And that can appeal to lots of different people as well.
00:44:02
Speaker
Of course, that's why they always used to knock the heads off of Roman statues.
00:44:07
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean... Sculpture is much more appealing than... Whoever the proverbial they are, you know, I think, yeah, I hope they're rolling in their graves.
00:44:16
Speaker
No doubt.
Final Thoughts on Canopic Jars
00:44:17
Speaker
Well, Karis, thank you so much.
00:44:19
Speaker
Have we missed anything?
00:44:20
Speaker
What else would you like our listeners to know about this canoptic vase?
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:28
Speaker
I think we've covered our bases.
00:44:30
Speaker
I think we've about covered it.
00:44:32
Speaker
How about that?
00:44:35
Speaker
Yeah, I hope that's all.
00:44:36
Speaker
I know I probably jumped back and forth quite a bit when describing these things.
00:44:41
Speaker
No, I think that's probably it.
00:44:44
Speaker
Well, thank you so much.
00:44:44
Speaker
It was a pleasure.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's a pleasure.
00:44:46
Speaker
Thank you.
00:44:47
Speaker
Thank you.
00:44:51
Speaker
that's a wrap for today.
00:44:52
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening.
00:44:53
Speaker
Hope you enjoyed it.
00:44:54
Speaker
And stay tuned for next episode when Michael and I are going to take a dive into the Morgan Library and try to untangle some of the mysteries around a particular bronze bust of an infant with the help of their curator, Jennifer Tonkovich.
00:45:07
Speaker
It's going to be a pretty exciting one.
00:45:10
Speaker
Meanwhile, a huge thank you to Karis Tindall of Charles Ede for being my guest today and to you for listening.
00:45:15
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati.
00:45:18
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:45:20
Speaker
My co-host is Michael Diaz-Griffith, and I'm your host, Ben Miller.