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Of Shoes and Ships and Sealing Wax, with Kay Collier image

Of Shoes and Ships and Sealing Wax, with Kay Collier

Curious Objects
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68 Plays3 years ago
Curious Objects guest Kay Collier, who is the owner of Kathryn Hastings and Company, purveyor of fine antique and modern wax seals, has always been a letter writer. You can thank her grandmother for encouraging the habit. Every week when she was a child Collier would receive a card with a piece of bubblegum and a dollar bill, and would send mail back. When she was nineteen Collier took a trip to Europe with her sister. Visiting the Amatruda papery on the Amalfi Coast in Italy, one of the oldest paper manufactories in Europe, her heart lit upon a wax seal. “You just have an intuitive feel for an object, it calls to you and you think ‘I don’t know what this is but I have to know more, I have to touch this thing,’” she says. One thing led to another and today she is the owner of some five hundred seals: wheel seals, case seals, rotating seals, fobs made to be worn with pocket watches by Victorian gents. Each boasts a beautiful matrice (the part of the seal that’s actually pressed into hot wax, to render a design) made from citrine, amethyst, bloodstone agate, and other semiprecious stones, with ormolu intaglios. Although wax seals date back to the Bronze Age, Collier is partial to seals from the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, when designers began incorporating an array of romantics symbols. Bay leaves mean loyalty, forget-me-nots signify remembrance or true love, ships gesture to the highs and lows of the human experience. For years Collier has been on the trail of a witch riding a broom and holding aloft a hammer to symbolize the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches), a 1486 German treatise on demonology used to charge witches with heresy. The seal is cheekily inscribed “all have their hobbies.” She’s bought three, but all, unfortunately, have been fakes. “There is a witch out there and she’ll find me when she’s ready,” Collier says. Collecting can be a lonesome pursuit, especially when your quarry is without mainstream appeal. Seeking to break out of her bubble, in 2019 Collier had the idea to make seals to sell. Today she manufactures both antique and modern seals, shifting the age-old practice into the future by using multiple colors and layers of wax, and through such innovations as submerging LEDs in the hot wax so that her seals glow from within. “We’re just a few years away from artists emerging who use seals and wax as a way to make art,” she says. That her collecting grow out a passion for letter-writing, is Ben quips, “like being a chair collector because you love sitting down so much.” But for Collier her seals are about more than usefulness, and even about more than beauty. They’re a reminder of the fleetingness of life, measured out, perhaps, by the amount of time it takes to make and send a letter to someone you care about, and the time it takes to receive one in return. “Antiques outlive us, they’re much older when we acquire them and hopefully they’ll have lives long after us. We’re stewards, and that idea of using and sharing is really important.”

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Transcript

Introduction to 'Curious Objects' and Kay Collier

00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:15
Speaker
My guest today is Kay Collier, who you might know from her company, Catherine Hastings & Co., or her beautiful Instagram account of the same name.
00:00:23
Speaker
I've been excited to talk with Kay because she practices something that I'm constantly preaching.

The Philosophy of Using Antiques

00:00:29
Speaker
Use your antiques.
00:00:31
Speaker
So many collectible antiques were made to perform specific functions.
00:00:35
Speaker
Some of those functions might be largely obsolete today, like boxes to hold your snuff.
00:00:39
Speaker
No offense to any snuff sniffers out there.
00:00:42
Speaker
But others haven't really changed much, from candlesticks to flatware to umbrella stands.
00:00:49
Speaker
And then there are objects that fall somewhere in the middle, things that aren't used much these days in normal life, but when you do use them, they can add a wonderful aesthetic quality to your experience and maybe even help you connect with the past.
00:01:04
Speaker
And that's what Kay's work is all about.

Art of Wax Seals and Historical Connection

00:01:06
Speaker
Her specialty is wax seals.
00:01:09
Speaker
You know, the type small engraved metal stamps used to mold drops of wax into a crest or a coat of arms or insignia.
00:01:16
Speaker
to seal up a letter.
00:01:18
Speaker
Now these can be highly collectible objects, but what I love about Kay is she's putting them to use, just as they were originally intended, making beautiful seals that you can use for a special occasion like a wedding invitation or just for a letter to a friend.
00:01:33
Speaker
And they really are beautiful, especially the way Kay produces them, often with multiple colors and layers of wax and paint to create
00:01:40
Speaker
little works of art based in this historic form.
00:01:43
Speaker
And occasionally, and we'll get into this later, they can open up some pretty scandalous stories.
00:01:58
Speaker
As always, you can get in touch with me on Instagram at Objective Interest or via email at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com.
00:02:06
Speaker
And if you enjoy the show, I'd really appreciate it if you leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you're using to listen right now.
00:02:15
Speaker
Kay Collier, thanks so much for joining me.
00:02:18
Speaker
I'm thrilled to be here.
00:02:20
Speaker
Did I just do a reasonable job of describing what you do?
00:02:23
Speaker
Yes, I actually have chills.
00:02:25
Speaker
That was so beautifully put.
00:02:27
Speaker
And the way that you've kind of explained using antiques and why that's important, I think regardless of what thing you collect,
00:02:37
Speaker
using it, holding it, having it in your space brings a little bit of that historic magic into your house and honors all of the people who've had the antiques before.
00:02:48
Speaker
I think in part because antiques outlive us.
00:02:52
Speaker
They're much older when we acquire them and hopefully they'll have lives long after us that we're stewards.
00:02:57
Speaker
And so, yeah, that idea of using and sharing is really important.
00:03:03
Speaker
So I want to start with you and your relationship with these

Kay's Journey into Wax Seals and Letter Writing

00:03:08
Speaker
seals.
00:03:08
Speaker
So what is the very first seal that you remember encountering?
00:03:14
Speaker
I started with a modern seal when I was 19.
00:03:18
Speaker
So back in 2006, I traveled through Europe with my sister.
00:03:23
Speaker
We visited the Amalfi Coast in Italy.
00:03:26
Speaker
We went to the Amatruda papery, which is one of the oldest, if not the oldest papery in Europe.
00:03:32
Speaker
It makes beautiful handmade cotton paper and paper.
00:03:38
Speaker
When I was in their gift shop, of course, I bought some paper and then I bought a wax seal that had my initials.
00:03:44
Speaker
And from that moment, I was hooked.
00:03:48
Speaker
I've always been a letter writer.
00:03:50
Speaker
My grandmother got me into writing cards and letters when I was a girl.
00:03:54
Speaker
She would send me a card every week with a dollar bill and a piece of bubble gum.
00:04:00
Speaker
And then, yeah, every letter that I would send her, she'd send me one back.
00:04:05
Speaker
So she got me in the habit of,
00:04:08
Speaker
writing and looking for mail.
00:04:10
Speaker
And for me, especially because I started when I was a kid, mail was always something exciting.
00:04:16
Speaker
Obviously, I was not getting bills at that age.
00:04:18
Speaker
And so I only saw the mail as a place for human connection and beauty and surprise.
00:04:24
Speaker
And then
00:04:25
Speaker
I went to boarding school starting in high school.
00:04:28
Speaker
When I was in school, I would write letters to my friends at home.
00:04:31
Speaker
When it was summer and I was home, I'd write letters to my friends at boarding school.
00:04:35
Speaker
And so that letter writing tradition continued with me.
00:04:39
Speaker
And so when I got that first seal, it was just kind of an extension of my passion for letter writing.
00:04:46
Speaker
And then on the antique side, it was almost 10 years later that I had been into other types of antiques, for instance, collecting silver cigar boxes so that I could store my craft stuff beautifully in my office.
00:05:03
Speaker
And on a whim, I decided to just put in a search on eBay for antique wax seal, not knowing what I would find.
00:05:11
Speaker
And I found the most beautiful object I had seen to date.
00:05:16
Speaker
It was, and I'll get a picture of this for the show notes for any of you who are listening, but it was a Ormulu seal.
00:05:25
Speaker
So it's looks like gold.
00:05:27
Speaker
The Ormulu was a amalgam of zinc and copper and it had a amethyst glass handle.
00:05:37
Speaker
So the object itself, it has this beautiful, clear purple handle.
00:05:41
Speaker
And then there's the Ormulu, so this kind of ornate gold looking top to it that has six seals that can spin around on a wheel.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so, yeah, on that wheel, each seal,
00:05:59
Speaker
is hand carved from a semi-precious stone.
00:06:02
Speaker
It's something common to see in antique wax seals, or sometimes we say antique wax seal matrix.
00:06:09
Speaker
The matrix is actually the object that is used to press the seal.
00:06:13
Speaker
But a lot of the matrices are carved from semi-precious stone.
00:06:17
Speaker
So you'll see citrine, amethyst, often bloodstone agate.
00:06:23
Speaker
And so that object has six semi-precious stones around it.
00:06:28
Speaker
encased in Romulu and then with this beautiful purple handle.
00:06:32
Speaker
So I didn't even know what I was looking at.
00:06:34
Speaker
I didn't know the history of it, but I was so intrigued.
00:06:37
Speaker
And I'm sure other antique collectors can relate to this, that you just have an intuitive feel for an object.
00:06:42
Speaker
It calls you and you think, I don't know what this is, but I have to know more.
00:06:46
Speaker
I have to touch this thing.
00:06:48
Speaker
So I ended up winning the auction.
00:06:50
Speaker
It was more than I had ever spent on an antique.
00:06:53
Speaker
I think it was $600 or something.
00:06:55
Speaker
And kind of laughable because that's the lowest cost I've ever paid for one of those types of seals now.
00:07:02
Speaker
And yeah, I brought it.
00:07:06
Speaker
I got home.
00:07:07
Speaker
And my best friend, Francesca, was visiting from Copenhagen.
00:07:12
Speaker
She's fluent in French.
00:07:14
Speaker
Most of the seals, not all I'm trying to remember, are in French on that specific matrix.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so she went through and we had a jewelry loop to read these tiny characters and decode the messages.
00:07:28
Speaker
And I realized that it wasn't just sealing something to be beautiful, that every seal exists.
00:07:35
Speaker
had an intention behind it.
00:07:37
Speaker
And that just further kind of solidified me in the world of black seals, because to me, letter writing is so much about our, you know, intentional power of connecting people and sharing our love and our friendship.
00:07:53
Speaker
And these seals are just another level of that.
00:07:55
Speaker
So when you open a letter, you might see on the seal, uh,
00:08:00
Speaker
For instance, a bay leaf, which is a symbol of loyalty or a forget-me-not symbol of remembrance and true love.
00:08:08
Speaker
And one I love is a ship, a symbol of how we can ride the highs and lows of the human experience, just like a ship at sea can weather ocean waves and tides and all of that.
00:08:21
Speaker
And so, and that's a little bit of a long winded answer to where it started and how I got into it.
00:08:26
Speaker
But basically once I beheld my first antique seal, even though I'd had maybe 20 modern seals, there was really no going back because they're just such beautiful objects and they're imbued with so much meaning and history.
00:08:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:42
Speaker
And I really love for you how closely the act of collecting is tied with the, again, with the use of these objects.

Engaging with Community through Social Media

00:08:50
Speaker
You're always thinking about them in terms of how they connect you with other people through this act of letter writing.
00:08:57
Speaker
It's, you know, it's as if I were a chair collector because I loved sitting down so much.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I do like that too.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah, I really think some of it comes down to
00:09:13
Speaker
how I see my purpose in life as it being a very kind of temporary time that I am here on earth and I want to have really meaningful and
00:09:27
Speaker
sincere relationships.
00:09:28
Speaker
And so I think with antiques, you sometimes have this feel of it's the only one.
00:09:34
Speaker
I can't lose it.
00:09:35
Speaker
I must have it.
00:09:36
Speaker
And I always try to remember that I never own the antiques.
00:09:40
Speaker
Again, that idea of stewardship.
00:09:42
Speaker
I have them for a short time.
00:09:43
Speaker
Maybe it's my life.
00:09:44
Speaker
Maybe it's just a part of my life that they're with me.
00:09:48
Speaker
But that ultimately they serve us to connect to our own humanity and to connect to others.
00:09:54
Speaker
And so I never want to feel like
00:09:57
Speaker
I'm some collector in my den that I'm, you know, bringing light to whatever I have and sharing it as best I can with the world.
00:10:06
Speaker
Well, and you do that in such an effective way on social media.
00:10:11
Speaker
You have one of the Instagram accounts that I really look forward to popping up in my feed.
00:10:17
Speaker
Again, that's Catherine Hastings Co.
00:10:20
Speaker
Because every time I see a video that you've posted or an image, it's something bright and optimistic and hopeful and full of energy and life.
00:10:33
Speaker
And
00:10:34
Speaker
And it always does connect to what you're just describing now, this idea of developing a relationship with other people through the medium of these objects.
00:10:48
Speaker
How did this passion, as you were developing this interest in these objects, how did that start to evolve into the social media activity?
00:11:01
Speaker
Great question.
00:11:03
Speaker
I knew that I wanted to share the seals, but I didn't really know how to do it.
00:11:08
Speaker
And I was the only person that I knew who was collecting.
00:11:13
Speaker
I'm sure this is true of other collectors in other areas.
00:11:15
Speaker
It's a very solitary practice where you might live in a region that has no other collectors.
00:11:23
Speaker
And so for me, at least, I find a lot of mine through online auctions and through dealers that
00:11:29
Speaker
in the UK and France.
00:11:31
Speaker
And so I didn't really know how to find the community to share these with or what would resonate with people.
00:11:40
Speaker
And one day I had the idea, what if I take these seals and I press them and I take my favorite colors and I make waxes out of them and I create seals that people can use on their correspondence.
00:11:55
Speaker
So they don't have to be a collector.
00:11:58
Speaker
in order to have this little piece of history.
00:12:01
Speaker
Again, that idea of sharing something.
00:12:04
Speaker
Letters are the most beautiful art, in my opinion, because the creator has the experience of creating the piece of art, but then the sender has the experience of using the seal.
00:12:16
Speaker
It goes through the postal service and then it gets to the receiver and they have an experience of it as well.
00:12:23
Speaker
And so that idea
00:12:25
Speaker
really stuck with me in creating seals that people could use.
00:12:30
Speaker
I mount them with an adhesive so they can simply peel them and then stick them onto their correspondence.
00:12:38
Speaker
And about a year before the pandemic started, I thought
00:12:41
Speaker
started really sitting with that idea.
00:12:44
Speaker
I knew in spring of 2020, I would be launching the pandemic hit.
00:12:51
Speaker
And so it was kind of a weird time, as everyone here knows, very uncertain.
00:12:57
Speaker
And so I just started in March 2020, sharing some seals I was making.
00:13:02
Speaker
And they were beautiful, but it
00:13:05
Speaker
to where I'm at now with the seal art, they weren't very intricate.
00:13:09
Speaker
It was just a pretty color and then a seal press.
00:13:12
Speaker
Maybe some of them were painted with some gold paint, but pretty simple.
00:13:16
Speaker
And then in June, 2020, I opened my shop to sell those peel and stick seals.
00:13:25
Speaker
And I still sell those types of collections, but I've moved away from it a bit.
00:13:31
Speaker
I'm starting to produce more modern seals.
00:13:34
Speaker
not quite into replicas, but again, taking something that's from a antique tradition and bringing it into the modern day.
00:13:42
Speaker
And so basically just through that process of starting to share one seal after another,
00:13:49
Speaker
I started to meet people online who were into letter writing and like I had been, they didn't know about antique seals.
00:13:55
Speaker
And so there, you know, became many people who all of a sudden just found this passion like I did.
00:14:00
Speaker
And then through that, I also finally met those other collectors who had also been working kind of in their own world of collecting without really having that community around them.
00:14:12
Speaker
And so, yeah, it's been,
00:14:16
Speaker
very much an organic

Safely Using and Appreciating Antiques

00:14:17
Speaker
process.
00:14:17
Speaker
And I also feel that it makes me really appreciate the time that we live in now, no matter how niche your passion is.
00:14:27
Speaker
I think about, oh my gosh, I'm interested in antique wax seals.
00:14:30
Speaker
Who knew?
00:14:31
Speaker
But there's tens of thousands of people who have the same interest.
00:14:35
Speaker
The world is big enough.
00:14:36
Speaker
The internet can help reach those people.
00:14:38
Speaker
And so
00:14:39
Speaker
I don't think that I had a plan of how to reach people.
00:14:43
Speaker
I just started sharing.
00:14:44
Speaker
And then with time, you know, the kind of the audience grew.
00:14:49
Speaker
So I'm amazed sometimes in the social media environment, particularly at how fearful people can be about actually handling and using antiques.
00:15:01
Speaker
I was actually in a, but almost entirely by accident, I was in a TikTok video not long ago, holding this important Sev porcelain piece in my hands while I was talking about it.
00:15:12
Speaker
And
00:15:13
Speaker
Some of the comments were just shocked that I was holding it.
00:15:16
Speaker
Or, you know, people will tell me that they're upset when they see me touching antique silver without gloves on.
00:15:23
Speaker
But you're using these pieces constantly.
00:15:25
Speaker
Have you ever encountered anything like that?
00:15:28
Speaker
Not, yeah, not really.
00:15:30
Speaker
I've had my fair share of trolls.
00:15:32
Speaker
I have, you know, about 100,000 Instagram followers.
00:15:35
Speaker
So naturally, there's people that have issues with things that I do, but not using the antiques.
00:15:42
Speaker
It usually comes down to a particular motif.
00:15:46
Speaker
Excuse me.
00:15:48
Speaker
So for example,
00:15:50
Speaker
I, even though I do have a lot of positive content, I'm not afraid to go into darker themes, you know, death, we're all going to die someday.
00:15:59
Speaker
It's important to remember that.
00:16:00
Speaker
So we can really appreciate life.
00:16:03
Speaker
Sometimes when I share those types of images, I get feedback that people think that's negative.
00:16:11
Speaker
But yeah, none as far as using the antiques.
00:16:15
Speaker
Um,
00:16:16
Speaker
I have had people respond really well when I wear white gloves.
00:16:22
Speaker
I have a seal that has a very fragile box.
00:16:26
Speaker
And so when I handled that box, I wear white gloves just to make sure my sweaty little palms don't hurt the box.
00:16:35
Speaker
But I've almost found, yeah, that's the only spot where it makes people think it's more precious because I'm wearing the gloves where
00:16:43
Speaker
to really effectively work with seals you can't have gloves on.
00:16:47
Speaker
And so, yeah, I haven't found a problem with that.
00:16:51
Speaker
And I've developed techniques to keep the antiques safe as well.
00:16:56
Speaker
So this is the example I gave earlier of the seals that have
00:17:00
Speaker
precious stones that are mounted and stones are carved, the intaglias, you have to be very careful when you press those because if you just pull the seal away from the wax, the wax will adhere to the seal and rip it out of its setting.
00:17:14
Speaker
And so, um,
00:17:15
Speaker
through trial and error, and I have made mistakes of actually hurting antiques.
00:17:20
Speaker
Luckily, I've been able to pop the stones back in and get them back to their original.
00:17:26
Speaker
But I've developed some techniques that then I teach other collectors who want to use their seals.
00:17:31
Speaker
So as stewards, we're not hurting the history in any way, and we're able just to kind of honor it as we grow.
00:17:39
Speaker
And there's some amazing collections of seals in the world that are in museums.
00:17:44
Speaker
but they're often just in drawers where people aren't seeing them.
00:17:47
Speaker
And,
00:17:49
Speaker
they don't know what it feels like to hold them and to actually use them.
00:17:52
Speaker
And so I'm not sure how this will work, but at some point in my life, I'd love to have at least some of my collection go into museums where there would be docents maybe once a month who would allow the public to actually use these pieces and to touch them and press their own seals.
00:18:09
Speaker
Because I think that's, again, that importance of history that you, you appreciate as well as it's living with us.
00:18:16
Speaker
It's a part of our,
00:18:18
Speaker
our moment now.
00:18:20
Speaker
And we shouldn't be, you know, building just mausoleums that we have to kind of have all times of history fold in on each other.
00:18:27
Speaker
And if you can do it in a way that doesn't do anything deleterious to a seal, in my opinion, I don't see any reason not to use them.
00:18:37
Speaker
I love that idea.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I think that's a good model, actually, for a lot of other types of objects as well.
00:18:43
Speaker
I'd be so happy to see that implemented.

Historical Context of Wax Seals

00:18:47
Speaker
But, you know, so we're getting into the history a little bit here.
00:18:50
Speaker
And I want to help listeners and myself get a sort of a better handle on the origins and the evolution of these objects.
00:19:02
Speaker
how far back do they go and what's the sort of sweet spot period for you?
00:19:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I think the seals actually date back to the Sumerians.
00:19:14
Speaker
I could be wrong on that, but seals have been around for thousands of years.
00:19:19
Speaker
Their initial function was a security measure.
00:19:24
Speaker
A seal does two important things.
00:19:26
Speaker
So first,
00:19:27
Speaker
It seals a correspondence so that when it's traveling, if someone tampers with the letter, the wax seal would either be broken or the page would be torn.
00:19:40
Speaker
And so it ensures that from point A to point B,
00:19:44
Speaker
It remains secure.
00:19:46
Speaker
It also verifies the sender.
00:19:50
Speaker
And this is something you see a lot in kind of period piece movies, someone using their signet ring.
00:19:56
Speaker
It has the family crest.
00:19:58
Speaker
Heraldic seals are a big part of this tradition of black seals as well.
00:20:02
Speaker
But that would tell the receiver that this correspondence originated from the person that it did.
00:20:10
Speaker
So it very much was a security measure.
00:20:13
Speaker
The period of time I'm most drawn to is late 18th, early 19th century.
00:20:21
Speaker
And that's a period where seals started to shift from just being heraldic seals to having more playful motifs and
00:20:32
Speaker
being a little bit more accessible.
00:20:34
Speaker
They were always designed for a pretty wealthy audience just because of the materials that were used to make them.
00:20:43
Speaker
But it wasn't just for patriarchs in the family or, you know, professionals that needed their seal.
00:20:52
Speaker
There were seals that a lot of women would use that would have a kind of fun symbolism behind them.
00:20:59
Speaker
So I mentioned some of the earlier ones of the bay leaf.
00:21:04
Speaker
The one that I posted recently this week was a snail and it says always at home.
00:21:12
Speaker
That idea is that the snail is happy wherever he lives.
00:21:15
Speaker
He has his home with him.
00:21:16
Speaker
And so there's kind of just a playful meaning that can be put on a letter, but that same motif could be sent by many different people.
00:21:25
Speaker
It doesn't have to be a way to authenticate.
00:21:28
Speaker
the original sender.
00:21:31
Speaker
And then in the 1850s or so, there were some pretty interesting seals that were made.
00:21:36
Speaker
There are cube seals, which are made from brass, and the cube has six different sides.
00:21:45
Speaker
Each side has a different motif, and so you can really just turn the cube and press it into wax and choose different motifs that you might use.
00:21:53
Speaker
send 1850s obviously Victorian era so a lot of those cube seals have a bust of Queen Victoria on them and then as you get into the late 19th century the tradition of these kind of playful motifs starts to go away it became more accessible to have initials carved in seals and so as you get into kind of Edwardian era and then you know
00:22:20
Speaker
further into the 20th century, you start to see more simple seals, just, you know, a couple initials carved in kind of a beautiful cursive.
00:22:32
Speaker
And so for me, I kind of feel like that sweet spot is where the materials are still really beautiful.
00:22:37
Speaker
They're using semi-precious stones, but there's also a lot of meaning behind it.
00:22:41
Speaker
It's not just someone's family crest or their name.
00:22:44
Speaker
There's a lot more symbolism.
00:22:45
Speaker
Music
00:22:50
Speaker
This episode is supported by the International Society of Appraisers, a nonprofit association of experts, connoisseurs, and educators who want to remind you that priceless isn't to value.
00:23:01
Speaker
And they can help you find out what it's really worth.
00:23:05
Speaker
The International Society of Appraisers has qualified decorative arts, fine art, and gems and jewelry appraisers across the United States, Canada, and the globe.
00:23:14
Speaker
Their appraisers are all USPAP compliant, so you know you can rely on their expertise.
00:23:20
Speaker
And they're trained in valuation for insurance coverage and claims, charitable donations, state tax, and more.
00:23:27
Speaker
Visit isa-appraisers.org or International Society of Appraisers on Instagram to find an appraiser in the right location and with the right knowledge for you.
00:23:40
Speaker
And check out their online and in-person courses and conferences with upcoming subjects including Japanese prints, indigenous art, and gems and jewelry.
00:23:51
Speaker
You can even take their course in appraisal studies or their specialty courses for an easy way to turn your connoisseurship into a career.
00:24:00
Speaker
Again, that's isa-appraisers.org.

Exploring the History of Jean Voyer

00:24:09
Speaker
Now, there's one particular sealmaker that I wanted to talk to you about because his story is just incredible.
00:24:16
Speaker
This is someone you've brought to my attention.
00:24:19
Speaker
I had never heard of him, but I think more people should because it's both a great story and I think it's really illustrative of the time period.
00:24:28
Speaker
And that is the 18th century Frenchman
00:24:32
Speaker
Jean Voyer.
00:24:34
Speaker
Who is Jean Voyer and why should we know who he is?
00:24:37
Speaker
Oh, Jean Voyer, a wily man.
00:24:41
Speaker
They believe he was from France, just given his name.
00:24:44
Speaker
He is primarily known as being a potter.
00:24:48
Speaker
We know through historic records that he had been employed by Josiah Wedgwood as a potter.
00:24:58
Speaker
And while he worked for Wedgwood, he learned a lot of the trade secrets.
00:25:05
Speaker
And with that, he also learned how to carve seals.
00:25:10
Speaker
Wedgwood, in addition to having beautiful pottery,
00:25:14
Speaker
also had some intaglios that could then be plaster cast or framed as art pieces themselves.
00:25:21
Speaker
And so John Boyez kind of learned all of the secrets in house at Wedgwood.
00:25:29
Speaker
And in 1769, he was arrested and sent to prison for stealing models and molds from Wedgwood.
00:25:37
Speaker
And there's not too much that we have from primary sources that let us know how long he was imprisoned.
00:25:45
Speaker
But it's assumed that it was within a year or so that he was out of prison.
00:25:52
Speaker
Josiah Wedgwood was in a difficult position because he
00:25:56
Speaker
He obviously could not trust Wedgwood, or Josiah Wedgwood obviously could not trust John Boyer stolen from him, but John Boyer also had all the trade secrets.
00:26:08
Speaker
So Wedgwood decided not to employ him and John Boyer started his own company.
00:26:15
Speaker
He started carving basalt seals just like Wedgwood had, and he named his company Wadgewood.
00:26:24
Speaker
Incredible.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, the audacity.
00:26:29
Speaker
So he just changed one letter where Wedgwood is W-E-D-G-W-O-O-D.
00:26:35
Speaker
And then Boyer made his company W-A-D-G-W-O-O-D.
00:26:41
Speaker
So basically looks the same.
00:26:43
Speaker
And then on the back of the seals that he made, he made the A...
00:26:51
Speaker
a little off kilter.
00:26:52
Speaker
It wasn't fully filled in.
00:26:54
Speaker
And so the line on the left-hand side of the A was stronger than on the right-hand side of the A. Is it an A?
00:27:02
Speaker
Is it an E?
00:27:02
Speaker
Who knows?
00:27:03
Speaker
So he really tried to make it look like Wedgwood and he succeeded.
00:27:11
Speaker
My first piece that I acquired
00:27:16
Speaker
is a beautiful basalt seal of a hunter.
00:27:19
Speaker
He's standing next to a tree.
00:27:21
Speaker
He has his rifle in his hands.
00:27:23
Speaker
He's ever the dapper gentleman with his waistcoat and long tails and his hat.
00:27:29
Speaker
And then next to him, there's a greyhound.
00:27:33
Speaker
Greyhounds are a symbol of the aristocracy.
00:27:36
Speaker
It was about 700 year period that
00:27:38
Speaker
you weren't allowed to own a Greyhound unless you're part of the aristocracy.
00:27:42
Speaker
So it's kind of this beautiful hunting scene that's reminiscent of the aristocracy.
00:27:51
Speaker
And when I acquired it, I was told it was Jean Boyer and Wedgwood.
00:27:58
Speaker
And so I didn't even know the history of Wedgwood or any of that.
00:28:02
Speaker
And then through my research, I ended up finding this whole story that, okay, if you have a Jean Boyer seal, it's not going to be a Wedgwood seal.
00:28:11
Speaker
Chances are he did make some Wedgwood seals, but you look very carefully with a jewelry loop at the back.
00:28:17
Speaker
And if that E is kind of an A, chances are it's a Wadgewood design.
00:28:23
Speaker
I purposely seek out John Boye's seals because he was a very talented craftsman.
00:28:31
Speaker
They're beautifully carved.
00:28:32
Speaker
It wasn't just taking a mold and duplicating it.
00:28:36
Speaker
These were all carved by hand.
00:28:38
Speaker
And so I find, I'm sure at the time it was frustrating and they weren't as valuable then.
00:28:46
Speaker
But I actually think modern day, they're in many ways more valuable because they have such a personal story with them.
00:28:53
Speaker
And I have multiple basalt seals.
00:28:54
Speaker
There are ones I know for sure are Wedgwood.
00:28:57
Speaker
I have multiple of the three graces.
00:29:00
Speaker
I have Wedgwood and Bentley ones.
00:29:01
Speaker
So it's clear those are Wedgwood as well.
00:29:05
Speaker
But then there's a couple that are still questions.
00:29:07
Speaker
Is this a Wedgewood or is it a Wedgewood?
00:29:10
Speaker
And it's near impossible to tell unless you can really look closely at the back of the seal and see if it's an A or an E.
00:29:20
Speaker
I love this 18th century corporate espionage.
00:29:24
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, you know, there's an old history, of course, of craftspeople stealing from each other and or imitating each other and passing their work off as somebody else's.
00:29:35
Speaker
We think of that today in the context of fakes and forgeries.
00:29:38
Speaker
But, you know, if you think of Gorham and Company, the great American silver manufacturer, you
00:29:46
Speaker
Their mark, their maker's mark, the recognizable symbol there is the symbol of an anchor, which was the same mark that was used by the assay office in Birmingham, England, for all of the silver that was assayed there.
00:30:02
Speaker
And so it's a what we call a faux hallmark.
00:30:06
Speaker
You know, Gorham was trying to give their customers the perception that this is sort of like an English piece and therefore of higher quality.
00:30:17
Speaker
And then strangely enough, over time, the Gorham symbol becomes more recognizable than the Birmingham signal.
00:30:25
Speaker
And, you know, pretty soon people are, when they see the anchor, they think, oh, great, this is a Gorham piece.
00:30:31
Speaker
I guess Wadgewood never quite got to that level, but it sounds like he really, he sort of deserved the acclaim.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah, he did.
00:30:43
Speaker
And I'm fascinated by the Gorham story.
00:30:45
Speaker
I actually have a fair amount of Gorham silver, including some inkwells and a desk set.
00:30:51
Speaker
And I'll be sure to take a picture.
00:30:54
Speaker
As with my antique seals, it's a piece that I use.
00:30:56
Speaker
It's on my desk.
00:30:57
Speaker
It's beautiful.
00:30:58
Speaker
But I'll look at it and see if I can get a picture of the marks so that we can share them with all of you who are listening.
00:31:05
Speaker
But yeah, and after Jean Voyer...
00:31:10
Speaker
made basalt seals.
00:31:11
Speaker
He then worked for other potters in, I think, Staffordshire mostly.
00:31:19
Speaker
I know he worked for Enoch Wood in Burslem and then I think one other after that.
00:31:26
Speaker
And so for Wedgwood, it really put him in a difficult position.
00:31:30
Speaker
The basalt seals are just kind of a small asterisk in Josiah or in Jean Boyer's work.
00:31:37
Speaker
Museum pieces of Jean Boyer's tend to be pots and, you know, other earthenware that he'd made.
00:31:45
Speaker
But yeah, there was just this 10 year period where he had Wedgwood and was really giving Josiah Wedgwood a run for his money.
00:31:56
Speaker
It's just occurring to me now that, you know, another sort of point of interest here is how similar their names are.
00:32:03
Speaker
Josiah Wedgwood versus Jean Voyer, both J, well, JW versus JV, very similar initials.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder if there was a bit of a inferiority complex at work there.
00:32:16
Speaker
It could be.
00:32:17
Speaker
And we don't know much about Jean Voyer.
00:32:20
Speaker
So was he actually French?
00:32:21
Speaker
Was that actually his name?
00:32:23
Speaker
We'll never know.
00:32:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:26
Speaker
Fascinating.
00:32:27
Speaker
Well, thanks for sharing that.
00:32:28
Speaker
That's just such a sort of fun story of intrigue and something for collectors to keep an eye out for.
00:32:36
Speaker
Definitely.

Kay's Collection and Types of Seals

00:32:38
Speaker
And I'll put the photos together so you can see the two ones that I know for sure are Jean Boyer and then I'll put the other ones.
00:32:45
Speaker
And I'm curious when you see them, are you able to tell the difference or not?
00:32:49
Speaker
I think it's pretty much impossible from my perspective.
00:32:53
Speaker
Oh, well, listeners, this will be a test for you.
00:32:59
Speaker
How many seals do you have?
00:33:00
Speaker
You've been at this for a while now.
00:33:03
Speaker
I think I have about 500.
00:33:04
Speaker
And when I say 500, I mean intaglios.
00:33:10
Speaker
So the image that you can press into wax.
00:33:13
Speaker
So as an example, the one that has the six on a wheel that rotates, I'm counting that as six because there's six different motifs there.
00:33:21
Speaker
There are also interesting...
00:33:24
Speaker
multi seals that were made by the same maker of the wheel seal.
00:33:29
Speaker
A lot of those really intricate seals were made in Palais Royal in Paris.
00:33:36
Speaker
In addition to the amethyst glass handled seals, they made a twee seals.
00:33:41
Speaker
A twee is the French word for case.
00:33:45
Speaker
When you look at the seal, it looks like a normal desk seal.
00:33:50
Speaker
It has a large metal handle.
00:33:52
Speaker
On one end, it has an image.
00:33:55
Speaker
But then if you pull the back of the seal, it is actually a case.
00:33:59
Speaker
It's a little drawer that comes out.
00:34:01
Speaker
And inside, there are tiny plates.
00:34:04
Speaker
Each plate has two sides.
00:34:07
Speaker
And each side is a different image.
00:34:10
Speaker
On the bottom of the seal, you can pull a little cap off and put one of those plates in.
00:34:14
Speaker
So when you first see it, what you think is just the main seal is actually just a little plate.
00:34:20
Speaker
And these could have up to, I think, 48 different motifs that were in them.
00:34:27
Speaker
They came in different sizes.
00:34:29
Speaker
There were different metals that were used.
00:34:31
Speaker
Some were brass, some were silver, some were silver with gold plate.
00:34:35
Speaker
And those, you know, that obviously ups the seal count quite a bit.
00:34:41
Speaker
So yeah, I would guess it's around 500, but I don't know as far as individual object, if I were to add a wheel and a twee and just count those as one, how many I have.
00:34:51
Speaker
As most collectors are, you have kind of your main goal or passion with
00:34:58
Speaker
whatever you collect.
00:35:00
Speaker
For me, it's really about looking at the breadth of wax seals.
00:35:05
Speaker
I do have some medieval seals, but for the most part, I'm drawn to that period I mentioned earlier.
00:35:12
Speaker
late 18th, early 19th century.
00:35:15
Speaker
And for that period, there are the wheel seals, there are the etui seals, the little case seals, there are rotating seals.
00:35:26
Speaker
So a seal that maybe has, let's say three different motifs on it, and you can rotate it to each different motif.
00:35:35
Speaker
There are also fobs.
00:35:37
Speaker
So fob would have been worn with a pocket watch.
00:35:42
Speaker
Again, thinking about the class of people that owned these types of seals, fobs tend to be made out of precious metal, usually gold, and then some type of stone that's been engraved on it.
00:35:55
Speaker
And then it was an ornament that they would have on the chain of their pocket watch.
00:36:00
Speaker
And so when you think about these objects, they weren't necessities, right?
00:36:04
Speaker
They were really meant to just be enjoyed.
00:36:07
Speaker
They could flaunt status a bit.
00:36:08
Speaker
And then they would be practical.
00:36:10
Speaker
You know, someone from the aristocracy might actually seal their correspondence with the fob that they wore on their hip.
00:36:16
Speaker
And so I do have fob seals as well.
00:36:19
Speaker
And then loose seals.
00:36:20
Speaker
There's different forms of loose seals.
00:36:22
Speaker
Some were ones that had been engraved with the intention that they be mounted in rings or fobs or pendants.
00:36:29
Speaker
And then there is also a tradition of glass seals that are kind of larger chunks of glass that are maybe a centimeter thick.
00:36:38
Speaker
and they'll have an image engraved on them.
00:36:41
Speaker
They weren't intended to be mounted into any type of jewelry and really just used as seals to press.
00:36:48
Speaker
So those are the kind of the main categories.
00:36:50
Speaker
And then the very traditional seals with
00:36:53
Speaker
let's say a wooden handle and a metal matrix on the end where you can press.
00:36:58
Speaker
And those tend to be heraldic seals.
00:37:00
Speaker
So crests of different families.
00:37:03
Speaker
And I have some really beautiful ones from France, the UK and the Netherlands.
00:37:10
Speaker
My favorite ones are the Dutch ones, but they're all quite similar as far as the overall design.
00:37:19
Speaker
You told us a little bit about the first one that you bought at auction, but obviously you have a lot more experience now.

Antique Collecting Philosophy and Challenges

00:37:27
Speaker
What have you learned about how to buy these objects?
00:37:32
Speaker
Well, first and foremost, there are always more.
00:37:35
Speaker
I believe that the right pieces find their way to the right homes.
00:37:41
Speaker
Sometimes I have to remind myself that when I really feel like
00:37:45
Speaker
I've missed a seal that I really wanted.
00:37:48
Speaker
I just remind myself, don't worry, there'll be another.
00:37:49
Speaker
An example of that is that there was a bob that I really wanted because it had a beautiful bow on it.
00:37:57
Speaker
There was an auction for it.
00:38:00
Speaker
I was out with my family on the Olympic Peninsula.
00:38:03
Speaker
I live in Seattle, so really beautiful nature here.
00:38:06
Speaker
I just totally forgotten about the auction, enjoying time with my family, being in nature.
00:38:10
Speaker
I came back to see, oh, I missed it.
00:38:13
Speaker
And it was a fine price to pay.
00:38:15
Speaker
But I wrote my friend, Melissa, who's a fellow collector.
00:38:19
Speaker
And I just said, I know there's another one out there.
00:38:21
Speaker
I know I have to take my own advice, but I'm frustrated.
00:38:25
Speaker
I lost this seal.
00:38:26
Speaker
And then I wrote the seller and I said, I was so bummed to miss it.
00:38:31
Speaker
I just totally blanked.
00:38:32
Speaker
It wasn't at the auction.
00:38:33
Speaker
I was looking for a seal with a bow.
00:38:35
Speaker
And they said, oh, I'm sorry you missed it, but I do have another with a bow and I'll sell it to you for half the price.
00:38:42
Speaker
And it was a more beautiful seal.
00:38:44
Speaker
And so it was a lesson for me that has happened again and again.
00:38:48
Speaker
there's always another piece.
00:38:50
Speaker
So again, we don't need to kind of grasp or try to hoard anything.
00:38:54
Speaker
You just kind of trust that the right pieces find their way.
00:38:58
Speaker
Negotiations.
00:39:00
Speaker
I think that negotiating prices, if you're not buying something from auction,
00:39:05
Speaker
the more you know, the better, but you always want to be kind.
00:39:09
Speaker
And especially as a woman, I know that my strongest way to move a conversation forward is just to ask more questions.
00:39:19
Speaker
And so rather than telling someone a price I want to pay,
00:39:25
Speaker
or being a little hard of like, oh, I'm gonna really low ball you on this and try to get them to move.
00:39:32
Speaker
That strategy might work for some people, but I think some of the research too around negotiation shows that that strategy does not work well for women.
00:39:41
Speaker
So I just ask questions.
00:39:42
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, what do you know of its provenance?
00:39:45
Speaker
SEALs, very hard to know provenance.
00:39:48
Speaker
But it's a good question to kind of have someone think about, oh, well, how do I know this is valuable?
00:39:54
Speaker
Or even just tell me a little bit more about how you're arriving here.
00:39:57
Speaker
at that number of what you want to sell it for.
00:40:01
Speaker
Asking questions, do you have multiple?
00:40:03
Speaker
Would you be willing to give me a break in pricing if I bought a couple pieces?
00:40:07
Speaker
And of course, always just being friendly, open, non-confrontational.
00:40:12
Speaker
I found that to be one of the most effective ways because you develop these great relationships with people, everybody wins.
00:40:20
Speaker
And then ultimately you end up paying a lot less for things because you're able to get a person to reason down to a lower price usually.
00:40:30
Speaker
Is there one that got away that you actually weren't able to get your hands on in the end that you that another one hasn't come around yet?
00:40:40
Speaker
I'm sure there are, I'm sure.
00:40:44
Speaker
I have a wish list.
00:40:45
Speaker
I think most collectors have a wish list.
00:40:48
Speaker
The one that's highest on my wish list right now is a piece that's from this era that I collect.
00:40:56
Speaker
So in this case for the seal, it's early 19th century.
00:41:02
Speaker
It's an image of a witch riding a broom and holding a hammer in the air.
00:41:08
Speaker
The hammer is a reference to Melisimov, Melisimov, the carom, I'll say it wrong.
00:41:15
Speaker
The witch's hammer, the book that was used to persecute witches across Europe.
00:41:23
Speaker
And so it's kind of a cheeky image of a witch on her broom with her hammer.
00:41:29
Speaker
And it's inscribed, all have their hobbies.
00:41:33
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:41:35
Speaker
which, yeah, it just cracks me up.
00:41:37
Speaker
Like, all have their hobbies, including witchcraft.
00:41:40
Speaker
But I had bought three in my time collecting, and then it turned out that they were fakes.
00:41:49
Speaker
And this was the first time that I realized that this area of antiques had become saturated enough
00:42:00
Speaker
and lucrative enough that somebody would actually do that.
00:42:04
Speaker
And as far as I know, right now, there's just one person in the world who's doing it.
00:42:10
Speaker
Woman that's based out of the UK.
00:42:13
Speaker
Won't go down that rabbit hole, but not a very nice person and continually makes these pieces and tries to sell them as real antiques.
00:42:23
Speaker
And she's becoming more skilled and more pernicious, approaching auction houses, getting her pieces in the hands of reputable dealers.
00:42:31
Speaker
So it's becoming more difficult.
00:42:34
Speaker
She's even...
00:42:35
Speaker
taking, I don't know if it's a hammer or what, but breaking pieces to make them look like they're old, adding wax to them, dirtying them to make them look like real pieces.
00:42:46
Speaker
And so that, I wouldn't say it's necessarily one that got away, but that frustration of making a mistake, spending a ton of money on something that isn't worth that much.
00:43:00
Speaker
I've kept one of them and I actually will use it occasionally.
00:43:03
Speaker
I love the motif, but that's high on my wishlist.
00:43:06
Speaker
And it came up through an auction house in the UK a couple of weeks ago.
00:43:13
Speaker
I thought, oh, this might be the one that I get because it was a fob.
00:43:18
Speaker
It had a grainy picture, you know, in the listing, which was upside down.
00:43:23
Speaker
It didn't even say what the image was or what it was inscribed.
00:43:26
Speaker
So unless you knew what you were looking at, you wouldn't know.
00:43:29
Speaker
there was wax in it so it was hard to tell um and i just thought okay this might be the one and i put my absolute max that i would feel comfortable bidding and it went for three times what i was willing to pay so i wouldn't say i felt you know like it got away from me i don't ever want to
00:43:49
Speaker
bid beyond what I'm comfortable I do trust that there is a witch out there and she'll find me when she's ready but yeah that's kind of the one where I feel like there's a little bit of a sore spot and then the other is there's a collector in Israel who has some of those beautiful chunky glass seals and he found the entire collection for $50 at a open air kind of thrift market I think
00:44:19
Speaker
And I thought this would be a great collection because I could put it in, you know, a book someday with the other seals.
00:44:27
Speaker
It could go in a museum collection.
00:44:28
Speaker
They're all together.
00:44:29
Speaker
They're historic.
00:44:31
Speaker
And he wanted 20 times what.
00:44:34
Speaker
I was willing and able to pay for them.
00:44:38
Speaker
And then I finally got my budget together where I could get close to what he was asking.
00:44:43
Speaker
And then he basically doubled what he was asking at that point.
00:44:46
Speaker
And so again, not feeling like it got away, but just that frustration where you can see things in your collection and it doesn't come together.

Connection with Historical Objects and Future of Seal Making

00:44:55
Speaker
Again, though, I always come back to, OK, those are they're just clearly not meant to be in my collection.
00:44:58
Speaker
And I'm very big into believing about kind of the energy that pieces have in them as well.
00:45:04
Speaker
I'm curious if you've ever felt this free kind of can feel like a heaviness in a piece or something in the history that maybe a piece attracts you or another that looks the same, maybe doesn't.
00:45:15
Speaker
And I think with seals, because there's so much symbolism,
00:45:19
Speaker
they that level of meaning is very important to me and so i wouldn't want to acquire something from a dealer that i feel is greedy or cruel or you know whatever and i'm not necessarily saying that he is that but the feeling that i have towards him after talking with him for over a year has also made it kind of clear those aren't meant to be in my collection so it's a little bit more of an intuitive way of collecting i think than
00:45:46
Speaker
A lot of people will approach it, but because they're objects that I use, they're actually touching my hands, my body.
00:45:53
Speaker
I want to make sure that they feel like they belong with me and that I don't carry any heaviness in that history.
00:46:01
Speaker
Does that make sense or is that just way too out there?
00:46:04
Speaker
No, that makes a lot of sense.
00:46:05
Speaker
Actually, I've talked about that sort of the aura of the object on this podcast once or twice in the past.
00:46:12
Speaker
And it's definitely something that I feel around particular pieces, especially pieces that have...
00:46:20
Speaker
history, whether it's history that we know or history that's just hinted at or alluded to.
00:46:27
Speaker
And often it has to do with these powerful images.
00:46:29
Speaker
I mean, the witch that you've described, that's fascinating.
00:46:34
Speaker
I was just thinking about we have a piece in our shop right now called, well, it's a Scottish tazza, so sort of a serving tray,
00:46:48
Speaker
And it has an armorial, which the crest is a hand wearing a gauntlet holding a dagger.
00:46:55
Speaker
And on top of the dagger is a severed head.
00:46:59
Speaker
And the motto across the top is, think on.
00:47:05
Speaker
And to me, it's just beautifully suggestive.
00:47:11
Speaker
Think on what?
00:47:12
Speaker
Well, maybe you think on the consequences of what happens if you don't do my bidding.
00:47:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:19
Speaker
So I love these objects that just are dripping with the
00:47:26
Speaker
the the sentiment or the the feeling of its original owner or its maker that seem to be communicating to you in a way that's more than just what's contained in the materials and the design
00:47:41
Speaker
Oh, definitely.
00:47:42
Speaker
Imagining being a guest at the table where it seems like there's so much hospitality and then you get food off that platter.
00:47:49
Speaker
Exactly.
00:47:50
Speaker
As you pull the sandwiches off, more of the image shows and you think, oh, Lord, this person does not seem as hospitable.
00:47:57
Speaker
And I think it's a reminder too that even if we're separated by people by hundreds of years, we're still people.
00:48:06
Speaker
We haven't changed that much, even though the technology's changed around us.
00:48:11
Speaker
heartbreak is a part of life.
00:48:13
Speaker
Death is a part of life.
00:48:15
Speaker
Humor is a part of life.
00:48:16
Speaker
There's another cheeky seal in my collection that has a man with a wooden leg sitting on a stump and it says paired, but not matched.
00:48:28
Speaker
And yeah, so there's kind of that, you know, play on, you know, the imagery there.
00:48:35
Speaker
But I think what's interesting about that seal is what was the context that that was used?
00:48:40
Speaker
Why would you send someone that would it be, you wouldn't dare put it on someone's wedding mail or something like that, but the sense of somebody not matching the expectations of another person as an example, would it be maybe a breakup letter or something that somebody would put that on?
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:01
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:49:02
Speaker
I feel like there's this sense, especially one that the Victorians probably would want us to have that people didn't have these
00:49:11
Speaker
difficult emotions or kind of animalistic tendencies, everything was kind of clean, cleaned up.
00:49:18
Speaker
But yeah, the imagery, at least from the, you know, periods that I work with, show the exact opposite.
00:49:23
Speaker
People were willing to talk about different things.
00:49:26
Speaker
They were, you know, making jokes with different images, again, jokes that probably now we don't find so funny, but you kind of see still that that mark of humanity.
00:49:41
Speaker
You've talked about or mentioned modern seals.
00:49:45
Speaker
What do you think the future looks like, either for the craft of producing the matrices or for the use of both new and old seals?
00:49:56
Speaker
Oh, it's a bright future.
00:49:58
Speaker
I think letter writing is never going to die.
00:50:02
Speaker
And in many ways, letter writing is better than it's ever been because all of those
00:50:10
Speaker
things that happened in the mail before, like I mentioned not paying bills as a kid.
00:50:16
Speaker
You don't get your bills really that often in the mail now.
00:50:19
Speaker
You get some junky catalogs or maybe some cards or letters from friends.
00:50:23
Speaker
And so I think that there's still a space for our society to really adopt letter writing more than it has.
00:50:32
Speaker
There's a magic to living more slowly, taking time to think about our words,
00:50:40
Speaker
writing a thoughtful letter to someone as a way to be with ourselves and be with others.
00:50:45
Speaker
And so I think that piece is very bright.
00:50:48
Speaker
And because of that, there is a lot more space for seals as well.
00:50:54
Speaker
A lot of modern seals are
00:50:57
Speaker
are carved obviously 3D because you have to have an impression, but it's a 2D image that's just been engraved in three dimensions.
00:51:07
Speaker
In the past couple years, there have been more engravers that can actually do a good three-dimensional design.
00:51:16
Speaker
And so I think that's really...
00:51:18
Speaker
good when I'm drawn to antiques, or at least initially, I was really impressed by the quality of craftsmanship.
00:51:25
Speaker
These were hand carved objects and very intricate, intricately carved.
00:51:32
Speaker
So a lot of detail and modeling into them.
00:51:36
Speaker
And so I think that is going to come even more to the forefront and be something that's more accessible.
00:51:43
Speaker
So yeah,
00:51:44
Speaker
it's more a period of kind of letter writing to the masses in a way that's really beautiful.
00:51:49
Speaker
My art, which,
00:51:51
Speaker
It was a little bit different from antique collecting, but what I've done in working with wax over time, I'm always kind of getting more curious of how to make a seal intrigue me, surprise me.
00:52:04
Speaker
Just like that surprise of opening a letter, I want there to be something that when someone looks at it, they go, what is this?
00:52:10
Speaker
And what's the story?
00:52:11
Speaker
I've even put little LED lights in my wax seals and there'll be a little lamp that will turn on and always kind of playing with it.
00:52:19
Speaker
I weave waxes and that type of stuff.
00:52:21
Speaker
And not to toot my own horn, but I'm the first person that's done that of taking wax seals and kind of saying, how can this be an art and what are the limits of what we can do with wax?
00:52:36
Speaker
And so we're just a few years in to artists emerging using seals and wax as a way to make art.
00:52:44
Speaker
And so that's another area where I just think there's such a bright future because when you have more people tapping into that quiet, creative part of themselves,
00:52:54
Speaker
they're inevitably going to stumble on more artistic techniques.
00:52:57
Speaker
And there's just a lot more inspiration that's out there for people to play with.
00:53:03
Speaker
So I think, you know, in the next few years, I don't expect there to be a huge jump in the quality of seals, but I would say within 10 years, we'll actually probably be back or surpassing what was created in the 18th and 19th centuries.
00:53:19
Speaker
Wow.
00:53:20
Speaker
That's incredibly exciting.

Conclusion and Gratitude

00:53:21
Speaker
And what a note to close on.
00:53:24
Speaker
Yes.
00:53:24
Speaker
Well, that's at least my wish and what I'm working for with everyone.
00:53:29
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Kay.
00:53:31
Speaker
It's been a real pleasure to talk to you and to learn from you.
00:53:35
Speaker
Well, thank you for having me here.
00:53:37
Speaker
It's just been a joyful conversation for me and so many things that I'm now thinking about and definitely we'll take some good pictures.
00:53:44
Speaker
So for any of you who are listening, you're able to follow on along with some of the things that we've talked about.
00:53:52
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support from Sarah Bellotta.
00:53:58
Speaker
Sierra Holt is our digital media assistant.
00:54:01
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:54:02
Speaker
And I'm Ben Miller.