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Stefan Hacker
196 Plays4 months ago
In this episode Michelle chats with Stefan Hacker.
Stefan grew up in Germany and now lives in London. He's been running his whole life but has recently taken up ultra running, which has led to his latest adventure, a crossing of the northwest passage in the Arctic!
Listen to hear about how ultra running is helping Stefan prepare for such a unique challenge, and talk through mindset, endurance and there is even a mention of polar bears too.
Details of the expedition: https://www.berkeleysquarebarbarian.com/2024/06/17/northwest-passage-expedition-2024/
Follow Stefan on X https://x.com/BerkeleySqB
Follow Stefan on IG https://www.instagram.com/berkeleysqb/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
ukrunchat
Welcome to today's episode of the UK Run Chat podcast, where we explore the incredible journeys of runners and adventurers from around the world.
00:00:01
Stefan Hacker
Hello.
00:00:07
ukrunchat
Today, we are joined by Stefan Hacker. Now at 49, Stefan ran his first ultra marathon. That was less than a year ago. And since then, he hasn't looked back. Not only has he conquered ultra running, but he's now preparing for an extraordinary expedition, which we're looking forward to hearing all about. Hi, Stefan. Thank you so much for joining us. Would you like to just introduce yourself to our listeners?
00:00:31
Stefan Hacker
Thanks very much, Michelle. It's great to be here. um Well, I am initially from Munich and I relocated to London about 20 years ago. I guess I've always been into running and um typically 10K distances most days.
From 10K to Ultra Running in a Year
00:00:48
Stefan Hacker
And um ever since I started ultra running less than a year ago, I'm um kind of not looking back and just focusing on that distance. Even though a lot of the practice runs obviously would be issue shorter. But yeah, I really um really enjoy ultra running, especially on trails and in mountains. And um yeah, I feel like it's good for me.
00:01:07
ukrunchat
Yeah. So how long have you been a runner then? When did you start?
00:01:10
Stefan Hacker
Second, sorry.
00:01:11
ukrunchat
When did you start running? How long have you been running?
00:01:13
Stefan Hacker
Running itself At uni, I guess 25 years ago. I don't know a little bit of running before but just twice a month maybe um but yeah ever since uni I would say almost every day unless when I might have been under the weather and um Started out with um doing ten case only so typically and whenever I ran it was ten kilometers pretty much down to the mile and maybe about I would say about
00:01:17
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:01:42
Stefan Hacker
15 years ago or so, I started doing slightly longer distances. So I did a lot of the beautiful half marathons um that are offered here in England. So I did the Windsor half marathon at least eight times, I think, and Hastings. And um during the last few years, also quite a bit of stuff in London, they've got a lot of nice ones here. Like um there's a good one in Wimbledon and in Richmond. So yeah, um a lot of half marathons. um I did one marathon that would have been about 14 years ago or so.
00:02:16
Stefan Hacker
That was a London marathon and I did it for charity, so that was good fun.
00:02:18
ukrunchat
OK.
00:02:21
Stefan Hacker
ah But other than that, just 10Ks in half, really.
00:02:24
ukrunchat
Yeah, and you enjoy getting off road onto the trails.
00:02:28
Stefan Hacker
I only started ah really with ultra running so I'd only ever done um either road running or in case of say Wimbledon half I think you could probably call it a trail half marathon I saw but it's it's um not like a real trail marathon so it's not a mountainous area and the paths are very well trodden so it feels very similar to me at least um it's running on road so it was really only when I um
00:02:41
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:02:54
Stefan Hacker
kind of, um just to kind of challenge myself for no um particular um other reason, when I tried my first ultra, um that I, um I guess, got into ultra running and then wired that into trail running. So the first ultra was actually on the road. But, um yeah, a trail running for ah less than a year as well. And um only after I had done a road ultra marathon.
00:03:19
ukrunchat
Yeah, so what kind of running are you enjoying most at the moment then?
00:03:23
Stefan Hacker
At the moment, um I would say 10 to 20K, sometimes 25K trail runs. So I often run sometimes with friends and hamster teeth. and a fair bit in Wimbledon Common and Richmond Park. And um yeah, those are my preferred routes, I would say. I still do a bit of um road running. It's just often more convenient to run straight from home and right where I live, there's not a lot of trails.
00:03:47
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:03:51
Stefan Hacker
But yeah, um typically 10 to 25k trail runs.
00:03:56
ukrunchat
Yeah, so how long have you been in London?
00:03:59
Stefan Hacker
ah Just under 20 years. Oh, actually just under 19 years, I think. and um Yeah, or my wife and I really enjoy it here. I actually met my wife here in London. It's a great place and a surprisingly awesome place for running as well. I think I've lived in quite a few places over the years. And um while I'm definitely not an expert and it's just my gut feeling, but I ah would say that it must be one of the better places in the world for ah running in general and also for trail running, actually.
00:04:30
Stefan Hacker
There's not a lot of big cities where you've got a Wimbledon common or a Richmond park or hamster teeth, where you really feel like you're entirely away from the city, even though it's just a 20 minute ride on the tube. um So it's really great in that way as well.
00:04:43
ukrunchat
Yeah, it's a very green city London, isn't it?
00:04:45
Stefan Hacker
Yes. yeah
00:04:47
ukrunchat
Yeah, I don't get down there very often, but I'm always impressed by how much green space there is when I do visit. Do you get too many park runs? Do you department?
00:04:54
Stefan Hacker
I think they're mainly 5Ks, are they? or um Yes.
00:04:57
ukrunchat
Yes, they are, yeah.
00:04:59
Stefan Hacker
I guess that's what um kept me from doing it. I hear that a lot of people really enjoy them. though A good friend of mine is actually ah and has been volunteering there for a long time. I'll probably give it a shot just for the community and and maybe with my wife who prefers the shorter distances. so yeah
00:05:16
ukrunchat
Yeah, they're good fun. we We went down a few years ago to do the original parkrun, which is Bushy Park, which was an incredible experience.
00:05:20
Stefan Hacker
All right.
00:05:24
ukrunchat
So yeah, go and go and give that a go if you get a chance while you're running.
00:05:28
Stefan Hacker
well do my dear yeah
Inspiration Behind Ultra Running at 49
00:05:30
ukrunchat
So what inspired you to take up ultra running then at age 49? That's quite a big step, isn't it?
00:05:36
Stefan Hacker
It is indeed. Yes, I think it was just I'm looking for a challenge. And you're just pushing myself a little harder. um i I really hadn't put much thought into it. I just saw that there was a London ultra being advertised. um I think it was on Twitter, so that I came across it. And it sounded interesting. I had never heard of it before. I thought ultras, in my mind, they were all very far away. And you know you'd have to travel to Snowdonia or a Peak District. So you're just signed up.
00:06:07
Stefan Hacker
And um it um then turned out to be, and I can't remember the exact facts, but something like the hottest June day in history or the hottest in like 20 years, it was insanely a hot. I think 33 degrees or so in the shade, but a lot hotter in the sun.
00:06:22
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:06:23
Stefan Hacker
It was really grueling hot. So in a way, I guess that made it um easier for me to get away with being an extremely slow runner and very inexperienced because a lot of people were walking, um you know, fire stretches. ah so we all took out not everybody but you know all the midfield and slow runners took their time and um it was good fun we got lost once and that added probably about three or four kilometer, maybe two or three kilometers to the 55 kilometer distance. But it was um really a great experience.
00:06:54
Stefan Hacker
It felt different from some of the 10Ks and half marathons that I had done, where the atmosphere was often a little bit more um and competitive and very much results orientated.
00:07:04
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:07:06
Stefan Hacker
whereas um And that continued to be my impression about ultra running in general. that They seem to be um for the most part, in any case, a very relaxed crowd. And it's um really very much about the community.
00:07:17
ukrunchat
Yes!
00:07:19
Stefan Hacker
To a lot of people, apparently, it's a lot about the eating. you know I know people in yes you you would know yeah and know people that literally pick their ultra races according to what food is um on offer. And you know they just go for the ones with the best food.
00:07:36
ukrunchat
And why not? Yeah, there's as good a reason as any.
00:07:37
Stefan Hacker
Yeah, exactly. Good.
00:07:40
ukrunchat
So what other ultras have you done since then?
00:07:43
Stefan Hacker
I've done, um actually I was going to look it up and then I didn't quite i get my um get to do it. I think it must have been about eight or nine days of um ultra running. ah So some events were over two days.
00:07:57
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:07:57
Stefan Hacker
So um the the run that I did after here, London Ultra, um was the Thames path challenge, I think they call it, which is really another race. A lot of people walk it. I would say the vast majority walk it. um I didn't attempt to run it slowly and it took a long time to finish. It was over two days, 100 kilometers. And then the third race was my first proper um mountain ultramarathon and um it was quite quite a funny story in that I actually finished first in my category which came very much unexpected ah because it was the last one to cross the finish line before the cut off.
00:08:33
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:08:39
Stefan Hacker
What had happened is that I had registered through a third party website. I can't remember which one. And ah that's happened to me on various occasions. They're often not very good at passing on the information to the race director. So in the morning of the race, they basically had to enter all the data from scratch. And with there not being much time, they decided to only enter my first name and my last name and my age. but no sex so i basically finished in the age group 40 to 49 sex unspecified despite being the last runner to cross the line um
00:09:10
ukrunchat
oh
00:09:14
ukrunchat
yeah So what what have you learned about yourself through doing ultra marathons would you say?
00:09:25
Stefan Hacker
well i guess in a way it did kind of um I did feel like I was really pushing myself at times, despite the fact that I'm slow. And um I guess, you know, you just continue to plow on and um you just, you know, if you have to dig a little bit deeper, but you don't give up.
00:09:38
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:09:45
Stefan Hacker
And um in the end, it did feel like like an achievement, I guess, i on a very small scale, but an achievement at around 50 kilometers through a mountainous terrain with a lot of elevation gain. And um I guess it did bring me a lot closer to nature. um Some of those runs I did, for example, were in unmarked trails.
00:10:08
ukrunchat
yeah
00:10:08
Stefan Hacker
So the trails themselves would have been marked. There were a few stretches that would have been a completely off any path. But you'd have to ah ah find out for yourself ah you know which turn to take. And it would have been a combination of a large number of different paths.
00:10:19
ukrunchat
again.
00:10:23
Stefan Hacker
So um I'm feeling a lot more confident now, I would say, than I did a year ago. um finding my way, you know navigating through nature, and if there's adverse
Lessons Learned from Running
00:10:32
Stefan Hacker
weather, i I feel like I'm better prepared to deal with it. A lot of the runs had really horrible weather. I guess it's just a thing here in this country.
00:10:38
ukrunchat
I think that's just the UK, Stefan.
00:10:41
Stefan Hacker
Yes, yes yes yes yes exactly.
00:10:41
ukrunchat
Yeah. but we're used to it You should be by now.
00:10:45
Stefan Hacker
yeah
00:10:46
ukrunchat
Yeah. and So your, so your ultras have differed quite a lot in terrain. Where was your mountain ultra, by the way? Which one was that?
00:10:52
Stefan Hacker
ah The first one I did was in Wales. It was the um Ultra X, Wales 50, I think it was called.
00:10:55
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:10:58
ukrunchat
Yeah. Okay.
00:11:00
Stefan Hacker
And um the toughest one I've done so far was um Ranger Ultra's Peak District. So one day it was the northern part and one day the southern part.
00:11:06
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:11:10
Stefan Hacker
ah in really horrible weather conditions. It was probably around yeah must have been around freezing point and extremely windy and um it rained almost non-stop for a good part of um one day and for almost all of the other day.
00:11:15
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:11:24
Stefan Hacker
So a lot of the path, um at least over vast stretches, were at the bottom of dry valleys, which is iron ironic because they were not very dry at the time. but
00:11:33
ukrunchat
yeah Wow.
00:11:33
Stefan Hacker
it filled up with water knee deep so you couldn't see where you placed your feet and it was just mud everywhere and quite cold as well um at at freezing temperatures so are that kind of was a bit of a shock to the system but i'm um and it's like i think they call it um type 2 fun so you don't necessarily always enjoy every minute while you're on the path but i'm still feel glad that you've done it afterwards i guess
00:11:53
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:11:59
ukrunchat
Yeah, i don't I don't know why we do that to ourselves. We do put ourselves through some misery, don't we sometimes for the sake of something we enjoy?
00:12:02
Stefan Hacker
yeah
00:12:06
Stefan Hacker
Yes, yes, exactly.
00:12:07
ukrunchat
Yeah. and So what did your training look like for your ultra marathons then?
00:12:12
Stefan Hacker
Oh, I'm um terrible at training. um I do, um I guess in a way, train almost every day in that I run every day.
00:12:18
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:12:19
Stefan Hacker
ah But I'm quite aware ah that um it doesn't really make much sense to just always run at the same pace, the same distance, or maybe sometimes do a bit of a longer run. But it just seems that um I can't get myself to it just you know create a training plan and then stick with it to fight legs, I think they call them, and speed training, hill training, all those things.
00:12:35
ukrunchat
yeah
00:12:38
Stefan Hacker
go to the gym or so. I do quite a lot of um other sports. um So I guess there is that kind of, I think they call it cross-training effect. But ah in terms of running training, yeah, I'm completely um useless. I just always run almost every day and it's always the same kind of 10 to 25 kilometer distance unless it's a race. And um in a way, I think it um does work for me in kind of that it keeps me healthy and you know reasonably hard-wearing.
00:13:04
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:13:06
Stefan Hacker
But of course, in terms of um improving my speed or a technique or anything really, um I'm not really making much progress on that side, I don't think.
00:13:15
ukrunchat
Yeah, it's not a priority for you because, you know, people run for different reasons, don't they? And it's not always to get faster.
00:13:19
Stefan Hacker
Yeah.
00:13:20
ukrunchat
Sometimes it's just for fun and to keep.
00:13:23
Stefan Hacker
I think your spot on executive is not a priority at all. um I really just enjoy it. I think the main thing I enjoy about running in general and in particular about ultra tray running is um almost like um the meditative meditation. It's like meditation to me. um And um yeah, it just helps me clear my mind and you know just not think about anything for for a few hours. And and and you know basically, yeah, ah that's the main thing. And I guess the physical, um the exercise aspect is important to me as well, i'm trying to stay fit.
00:13:59
Stefan Hacker
But yeah, I definitely don't want to, um I have no ambition to become a fast runner or anything.
00:14:03
ukrunchat
No, no, I think the more the more people I speak to on on the podcast, I think a lot of people are running so that they can keep running into, you know, old age to keep fit and healthy and mobile.
00:14:13
Stefan Hacker
Yep, yep. Yep.
00:14:16
ukrunchat
I think that's as good a reason as any, to be honest.
00:14:19
Stefan Hacker
Oh, good to hear it, Anne.
00:14:20
ukrunchat
Yeah. So if someone's out there listening, and thinking, i'd I'd like to try my first ultra, what advice would you give to them?
00:14:27
Stefan Hacker
I guess um go for it, um definitely. I think pretty much anybody who's done a little bit of running and is reasonably physically fit i can do it. um There's a thing with the cutoff time, so I wouldn't pick one where the cutoff time is extremely ambitious because it does um feel very different. you know somebody who's a very fast half marathon runner who's never done say a 50 kilometer distance might um find that he's a lot or she's a lot slower on a longer distance per kilometer. But yeah other than that, um if you physically fit and um you've done some running and you want to give it a shot, I don't think it matters really how long the distances were that people have run beforehand. I know quite a lot of people that went straight from
00:15:07
Stefan Hacker
I guess typically it's straight from half marathon to um ultra and a few people might have done one marathon before they did ultra marathon. But yes, the cutoff time is reasonable one and the terrain is not extreme. Then I think, um you know, everybody should absolutely give it a shot if they want to.
00:15:24
ukrunchat
yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. you've And you've got to want to to be able to run that distance, haven't you? There's got to be some intrinsic motivation there, I think.
00:15:30
Stefan Hacker
Yeah, yeah, I guess.
00:15:35
ukrunchat
Yeah, because when it when it gets tough, you you need some reason to keep going forward.
00:15:39
Stefan Hacker
Yes. yes um Interesting.
00:15:40
ukrunchat
and Yeah, so so before we get on to your kind of, because you've got a big expedition coming up, I just wanted to ask about, and have you done much running back in Germany? I just wanted to ask a bit about the running culture over there, because it's not something we ever we ever talk about. So I'm I'm interested really.
00:15:54
Stefan Hacker
art um It's such a long time. um This is a relocated, and I only visit for a weekend here and there um over the years. um So I can't really say that I know much about the running culture. I do follow quite a few people on social media that are based in Germany. And to me, it seems like it's not that different from the UK. I couldn't even say if trade running is more or less popular. I think Germans, being Germans, um On a better side, I'd imagine that there's probably more people who are really, really, really um you know going for a um great time or something.
00:16:29
ukrunchat
Yes.
00:16:29
Stefan Hacker
Maybe not necessarily um only focusing on having fun, but that's just my gut feeling. um i I do remember having done a few runs um since I relocated to London, but when I visited Germany, And ah with Germany having pretty high mountains, um it's actually amazing um what kind of opportunities there are for trail running. On one occasion, I tried to run up the highest mountain in Germany, which is just under 3,000 meters high.
Attempting to Summit Germany’s Highest Mountain
00:16:57
Stefan Hacker
And I actually got lost in the middle of the night, like I started really early at like 2 a.m., and then got lost pretty close to the
00:17:06
Stefan Hacker
It was close to the summit in terms of um um running distance, ah but still pretty far from the summit because the last bit is really the steep one. So I think I ended up doing a U-turn and um I think I'd run about marathon distance.
00:17:19
ukrunchat
wow wow
00:17:19
Stefan Hacker
ah So it was, in a way, very disappointing not to actually manage to get to the top. It would have been a bit like VFR artist style. You would have had to you know ah hold a metal rope and then you know make sure that you don't um fall off the cliff. um So quite um you know quite um relatively challenging terrain, um all just rocks and cliffs. um But unfortunately, I only got pretty much to the bottom of the cliff and then didn't quite find my way to the Via Verrata and made a U-turn. But yeah, um the UK really has a lot of great trail runs. And um yeah, um' I'm very pleased here. But in a way, I found it nice to have another 1,000 meters elevation gain or something added, maybe even a bit more.
00:18:00
Stefan Hacker
and um Yeah, so that um is something I really enjoyed.
00:18:03
ukrunchat
Yeah. So do you enjoy the mountains then? I must confess, I don't have a head for heights.
00:18:08
Stefan Hacker
ah Fair enough, yeah.
00:18:09
ukrunchat
And I like my hill running, but I can't imagine going up mountains, to be honest. How is it on the top?
00:18:14
Stefan Hacker
money I used to be terribly scared of heights. um like I literally couldn't stand next to a window in an office building or so. um but um ah Over the years, it um grew better like over the last um maybe six or seven years, and now I don't have any fewer fights anymore. I still don't want to die, so I want to avoid anything where I can slip and then fall to my death.
00:18:30
ukrunchat
Well, yeah.
00:18:33
Stefan Hacker
ah But yeah, ah to me, I would say ah the more um mountainous um and rugged the terrain, the more attractive. And I like the idea when elevation gain is actually um you know not just going up and down and up and down but like kind of when you're going up continuously for quite a distance. um So I would say that um to me personally um adds to the experience but then again there's places like Jurassic Coast which by the way I found was terribly exposed um in pirates like you run right next to the cliff and nobody knows how eroded the cliff edge is.
00:18:57
ukrunchat
yeah
00:19:04
ukrunchat
yeah and that's in is that dorset ah and Yeah.
00:19:08
Stefan Hacker
Yes yeah I think it wasn't Dorset where I did it.
00:19:11
ukrunchat
Yeah, Yeah.
00:19:11
Stefan Hacker
um um And, um yeah, so the Jurassic Coast, I was just going to say, while it's not um like the terrain that I described, you know, at um reasonably high altitude and um a continuous ascents, it is great for trail running, I think. And there's so much elevation gain because you go up and down so much, it could be more than you would get in in Wales or even, you know, if you do some of those trails in the Alps.
00:19:39
ukrunchat
Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's good to know. Yeah. That's not somewhere I've been to yet, but you never know.
00:19:44
Stefan Hacker
All right, I know it's beautiful. I mean, you you're very much spoiled up there, isn't it? um ah where Where you live, um it must be must be quite a great place for a trail.
00:19:53
ukrunchat
Yeah. I'm great. I'm interested. We have, we have lovely Hills here. I'm saying not many high mountains, but we've got the Lake district, not far away either.
00:19:57
Stefan Hacker
Yeah.
00:20:01
ukrunchat
So really lucky.
00:20:01
Stefan Hacker
Yeah.
Preparing for a Groundbreaking Rowing Expedition
00:20:03
Stefan Hacker
That's beautiful.
00:20:03
ukrunchat
Yeah, so let's get on to your, you've got a big expedition coming up that isn't, it's not running related, but I'm interested in how your running experience is going to help you. So tell us what you've got coming up in the next, well, the next few months, isn't it?
00:20:18
Stefan Hacker
Yeah, exactly. It will be um six to 10 weeks. So thanks again so much for letting me speak about this.
00:20:21
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:20:24
Stefan Hacker
It's great to get the word out. um I'm part of a team that will attempt to row the Northwest Passage for the first time, so it's never been done before. um And I actually only found out about it maybe three weeks ago. So it's all very new to myself and all very exciting, maybe more exciting at times than I wish it would be, because it's all in such short notice and such little um time to prepare.
00:20:40
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:20:49
Stefan Hacker
But yeah, we're all confident that we will make it um to the finish line, which is basically the border between Alaska and Northwest Canada. So the Northwest Passage is the most, well, some people might know, but it's basically the sea lane that connects northeast Canada and I guess Greenland um ah to Alaska.
00:21:10
ukrunchat
Yes.
00:21:11
Stefan Hacker
So it's the northern connection between the Atlantic and the Pacific. And you go through that archipelago, the Arctic Canadian archipelago between the North Pole and the northern end of Canada, I guess.
00:21:25
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:21:26
Stefan Hacker
um So it's um it's ah going to be a challenge and I'm very much looking forward to doing it. And i I guess your question was how do you think that are the running and maybe in particular the ultra running would have helped. I think um we already touched on it a little bit. I do think that um If you push yourself a little bit harder and a little bit more on a regular occasion, that certainly um kind of had me be more confident in my ability and also maybe um improve a little bit in terms of endurance. And then I think we might have touched on it also. I'm feeling more confident now than I did a year ago in terms of um finding my way around nature and dealing with challenges. So it might be adverse weather or um anything it is.
00:22:17
Stefan Hacker
and um I guess I think it might have helped me to secure my arm place in the um expedition and that Leven Brown, our skipper and expedition leader, um he did most of the rowing and he's done a lot of rowing. He did most of his rowing with a um rowing partner that is an ultra runner. So you kind of um seems to have liked the idea that not often it's people with um but the mindset that he might be um might be looking for. us all on So people who are happy to push themselves and kind of dig deep. I feel a little bit like, I feel imposter syndrome because I'm not a very good runner and I haven't really done any expeditions yet. The other guys in the expedition
00:23:11
Stefan Hacker
team are all very experienced, so it feels a strange you know being asked about the um kind of takeaways or guidance. But yeah, I do think that ultra running certainly has helped me be a little bit better at endurance and digging deep and um challenging challenging myself, not giving up.
00:23:28
ukrunchat
Thank you.
00:23:31
Stefan Hacker
and um Yeah, dealing with adverse environments, finding solutions that talk, you know, become a little bit of a problem. So a lot of ITRAs, there's a lot of things that can go wrong.
00:23:43
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:23:43
Stefan Hacker
You know, your gear might have a failure or it might be simple things like, you know, a bit of an injury or, you know, it could be anything really, or you're missing something that you should have packed and realize now you haven't packed, so you need to find a way of making do without it. Could be related to dealing with adverse weather or, any type of challenge really. So I'm guessing that that might be something that will happen given the expedition. The challenges on the expedition of course are expected to be a lot bigger than anything I would have faced um ultra running.
00:24:17
ukrunchat
Have you done any rowing before then, Stefan?
00:24:20
Stefan Hacker
um Very little. I've kind of eyeballed With a friend of mine that we would cross the Atlantic, um ah like we were planning on preparing for maybe two or three years and then um crossing the Atlantic. It's probably the most common challenge in ocean drawing. um Back then it used to be called the telescope transatlantic challenge. I think now it's got a different name. um But yeah, it's typically about 20 to 35 boats or so and every December they set off in the Canary Islands and then row across the Atlantic to
00:24:58
Stefan Hacker
the Caribbean, I think it's Antigua if I remember correctly. So um when we kind of had um started to develop the plan, I did an ocean rowing taster course just to get a feel for what the boat feels like. And I um did two rowing courses on the Thames in Putney, but um yeah, clearly i'm I'm aware I'm still very much a beginner, you know, I'm ah doing 16 weeks of rowing on the Thames and a little bit of training on my
00:25:16
ukrunchat
Thank you.
00:25:25
Stefan Hacker
rowing machine at home and the taster course, yeah, that does not change anything in the fact that I'm a beginner. But I did have a keen interest in ocean rowing for a long time. I do find that um it's one of those areas where there's still a lot of opportunities I had in terms of doing something that might be unusual or might not have been done a ton of times before. And um yeah, like the aspect about it, um I guess in sailing um there were a lot of um There were a lot of successful attempts to do something for the first time over the last or maybe 30 years or so. um And it seems like now that has shifted a little bit to ocean rowing, um where there have been a lot of developments. For example, the boats are now a lot better and a lot safer. And I guess there's also more people now doing it. It's still only a small crowd. But um so ah gradually, ocean rowing now became, in my view,
00:26:18
Stefan Hacker
Um, kind of the area where, um, people try to, you know, break down barriers to something for the first time. and i like about it
00:26:25
ukrunchat
Yeah, because this will be the first time this crossing has been attempted, is that right?
00:26:28
Stefan Hacker
Yes. Yes, exactly. If you succeed, then we would have been the first people to roll the Northwest passage. Um, exactly.
00:26:37
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's pretty special, isn't it? and
00:26:39
Stefan Hacker
Yeah, I mean, I'm i'm really still quite, um quite um um well, i'm I'm very excited and um I'm not sure if I have fully processed it yet or it all came very quickly. um I just received, like I applied and then a couple of days later I got the approval and then I was on holiday for a little while. And um ah so yeah, I've i've i'm basically just started, you know, with my preparations and it's still,
00:27:01
ukrunchat
you
00:27:05
Stefan Hacker
A lot of things to do. I do have a day job as well, so it has to be done besides the day job. And um among other things, for example, everybody who joined the expedition as a regular member um will have to contribute to the costs. So we will all have to find sponsorship or pay ourselves. um ah That will take quite a lot more effort to get the money together. And then just simple things like getting the kit, for example, some of it will be provided by um the expedition. um They've done the first leg um from the entrance, from the eastern entrance to the Northwest Passage ah to the midpoint ah last summer.
00:27:44
Stefan Hacker
ah So that comes in extremely handy. and So a good part of the gear and even some parts of the over, like some parts of the clothes even will be available to us, like oh like life vests, for example.
00:28:01
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:28:01
Stefan Hacker
ah But yeah, a lot of kit to still be first you need to find out what exactly it is you want and what suits you in terms of size and you know if it's got the right qualities and then getting those together and a million other things really and obviously ah um a good part of it is to make sure that while I'm gone for 10 weeks, and it could even be a little bit more because it could be that we and have to wait for two or three weeks before we even set off so that will be added to the 10-week period. Hopefully, we'll start immediately, yeah and it'll be six weeks.
00:28:34
Stefan Hacker
But in essence, I've got to make sure that while I'm gone, I know things will still keep rolling.
00:28:38
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:28:38
Stefan Hacker
So yeah, it's a busy time at the moment, but I'm at least
00:28:40
ukrunchat
There's a lot to prepare then. so So talk us through what the next few weeks before you hopefully set off will look like in terms of preparation for you physically, mentally and getting all this kit ready.
00:28:50
Stefan Hacker
yeah says this was course Yes, yes, yes.
00:28:50
ukrunchat
ah So that's a lot to do.
00:28:54
Stefan Hacker
I mean, initially my plan was... um when I when really got thinking about it three weeks ago, um to focus a lot on training and you know be as healthy as I possibly can.
00:29:04
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:29:07
Stefan Hacker
and And that is still the plan. But I think I'll just be so busy that you know just to get the bare essentials done, I won't have much time to actually, I probably you won't even do um a ton of rowing. I try to practice a bit on my rowing machine at home. And um I still run every day and I will sometimes go to the gym. But I think I'll be so snowed under just with the bare essentials of getting everything ready. There's really a million things to to get done. And I guess you asked about the mental preparation as well.
00:29:39
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:29:39
Stefan Hacker
So I think I'm now in a place where I'm still quite excited and everything is new and I can't believe that I'm actually going to do this. but um At the beginning, I guess there was a certain level of intimidation. It's quite a big challenge. But um yeah, I think I've kind of settled into you know it's going to happen. It's going to be good. It would probably not be type one fun, but I think it will be will be good. um And I'm very pleased to be a part of it. So I think, while it might sound strange, you know you'd think that somebody would have a precise plan and you know checklists and everything.
00:30:15
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:30:16
Stefan Hacker
I think in my case, I'd just be um You know hopping around like a madman just trying to get everything done on time because things do take a lot of time. And um yeah besides the day job is just a lot of stuff to to get done in a very short period of time.
00:30:28
ukrunchat
Right.
00:30:32
Stefan Hacker
We might be leaving as early as the 10th of July and then be rowing from the 15th of July.
00:30:37
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:30:38
Stefan Hacker
And um to be frank, I'm still very much at the beginning of preparing for everything and getting everything sorted. um So I'm sure I'll be fine. I know everything will be done when we when we leave. But it's very, very little time and a lot of things to to get done.
00:30:55
ukrunchat
Yeah, so tell us about the the
Meet the Expedition Team
00:30:57
ukrunchat
rest of the expedition members, who's on there and how many of you are there.
00:31:00
Stefan Hacker
yeah um yeah they um They're an amazing group of people. So besides Lieven and myself, we got Art, Art who's on a car. He's based in Arizona in the US. He's actually the guy that, or through whom I learned about the expedition. I've been following him for probably about three years or so on Twitter. And um he's ah pretty much a full-time adventurer. He used to be with the army, a very distinguished career, and as so um part of the other jobs, including lecturing at university and and a ton of things.
00:31:39
Stefan Hacker
But um yeah, now a full-time adventurer. And he posted on Twitter that um the Northwest Expedition are looking for another member to join in for somebody to join and that's what got me to contact Leven and that's how I got in so he's a really truly amazing guy he's 73 years of age um which is um really a quite quite something but yeah um he's constantly going on expeditions
00:31:52
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:32:06
Stefan Hacker
that um you know would be challenging for Machiana people. So he will be doing, or he will be finishing an expedition he started a few years ago, um going down the Yukon unsupported in a canoe. And he will be doing that just before we all meet at the starting point of our expedition. So yeah, a lot of stuff on his plate, but um'm yeah, he's so experienced. I've got no doubt that you know it'll be easy for him.
00:32:33
ukrunchat
Yeah, he'll he'll know what to do in an emergency, won't he?
00:32:35
Stefan Hacker
Yeah.
00:32:36
ukrunchat
Yes.
00:32:37
Stefan Hacker
Exactly. ah And then the remaining two people in the team, the only ones that I actually met in person, um they also live in Southeast England, just like myself, a little bit closer to Brighton. So we did meet in Brighton in a pub last week, um just to you know kind of um Yeah, catch up and and and um yeah i talk about the expedition. One of them is Mike Harding. um He um is um a former kind of elite soldier. He was with the Royal Marines and extremely experienced. He's also um joined the first leg of the expedition. So that came in extremely handy. You could give a lot of information to Felix, which is the last guy in the team.
00:33:26
Stefan Hacker
and myself about how things went you know last year during the first part of the expedition.
00:33:32
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:33:33
Stefan Hacker
And um he's actually talking about Mike now. um He's a descendant of Sir John Franklin, who was one of the um most famous explorers that tried to find a way through the Northwest Passage in the 19th century. and So ah that's a nice connection as well. um And it's um it's amazing that he'd you know, basically go down the same ah route that um his famous ancestor is associated with. The expedition back then did not go very well, so they all died.
00:34:07
Stefan Hacker
And they basically, this is actually not that funny, obviously, but um they all, in the middle of the 19th century, they set out in 1845, but they got um ah stuck in ice, so they just, both just froze into the ice.
00:34:07
ukrunchat
up wa
00:34:18
ukrunchat
Oh wow.
00:34:24
Stefan Hacker
And I think some of them survived for five winters or so. The evidence is not 100% clear. A lot of um debris was found from the boat and people tried to glue things together. But yeah they um um yeah, they all died, basically. And in yeah, it's it's quite a dangerous place.
00:34:39
ukrunchat
Wow, that's sad and that just shows how dangerous it is actually, doesn't it? Yeah.
00:34:45
Stefan Hacker
And um Felix is also um and um a very distinguished army carrier. And I think among others he trained soldiers in Ukraine. And um just like Mike and Art, and obviously Leven, he's also done a fair bit of adventuring. So I remember he told us that he had been kayaking around the northern and end of Scandinavia. And I've done some um rivers in winter, you know going over 2,000 kilometer distances and longer.
00:35:19
Stefan Hacker
So a very experienced guy. And um yeah, it seems like it's um going to be great on getting to know everybody better. And yeah, I can't wait. it's It's really only three weeks now.
00:35:30
ukrunchat
Yeah, and you certainly will get to know
Boat Specifications and Safety Features
00:35:32
ukrunchat
them better. How big is the boat that you'll be on? What's the boat like?
00:35:35
Stefan Hacker
ah The boat is one of the biggest ocean rowing boats around, so it's built for eight people for long distances, and it's been designed by Leven, our expedition leader, specifically for Arctic conditions, which comes in very handy.
00:35:42
ukrunchat
yeah
00:35:49
ukrunchat
yeah
00:35:51
Stefan Hacker
It's 13.5 meters long, 44 foot, so a very long boat. And the width is just like with most ocean rowing boats, a bit over two meters, so it's very long and very kind of thin. It's ah almost unbreakable, it's almost unsinkable, and it's self-writing, so ah whenever it should capsize, it automatically you know goes up um um the right way.
00:36:07
ukrunchat
Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:17
Stefan Hacker
And it's got double hull. So that means if you should crash into an iceberg, for example, which is bound to be happen, because sometimes the visibility is very low.
00:36:25
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:36:27
Stefan Hacker
So we expect to um run a ground and crash into icebergs and crash into um pack ice and sea ice. So whenever that happens, that double hull would protect us in a worst case scenario where the outer shell would be ripped. um So we would still have that inertia and then could fix the outer shell. And because of the, um The weight, um it weighs more than two tons, even without us on board, just fully packed with without people. um Because of the weight and the length, it is much less susceptible to be lifted out of the water.
00:37:01
Stefan Hacker
So in previous expeditions, not the one last year, but in other expeditions, it happened that boats were lifted out of the water entirely, um which is quite dangerous because when they crash back into the water, that's not good for the people inside or for the boat.
00:37:14
ukrunchat
You know?
00:37:16
Stefan Hacker
So yup it's it's a lot more yeah, it's a lot safer basically in the sense that it is much less likely to be ah lifted out of the water and it's also ah less likely to be pushed around too badly by the storms and so um I got a very good feeling about the boat and so does everybody else. It's great of course also that they already tested it um on the same on the same route, the first half of that route during the last year.
00:37:37
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:37:41
Stefan Hacker
So that all gives a lot of confidence. And um yeah, we got the most modern equipment in terms of um technology. So we got four different satellite connections. um Apparently the internet connection is excellent, so we could in principle all be, you know, kind of watching Netflix at the same time streaming. If you wanted to, even though it seems unlikely that we'll have a lot of time to do that because we'll be rowing two hours on, two hours off, two hours.
00:38:08
ukrunchat
Okay, that was what I was going to ask kind of practically how it'll work in terms of like sleep and, you know, shifts in rowing.
00:38:13
Stefan Hacker
Yes.
00:38:15
ukrunchat
So you've already worked that out, obviously.
00:38:15
Stefan Hacker
That, yes, I mean, it might be that we will change the plane.
00:38:18
ukrunchat
and
00:38:21
Stefan Hacker
because um yeah we are a smaller team than last year, and we'll have to see how the conditions are, the weather conditions, and and how everything pans out. um So there might be a chance that we will row during the day and then sleep at night, we'll have to see.
00:38:32
ukrunchat
Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:33
Stefan Hacker
But the way normally um these things are done and the way that it was done during the first half of the expedition is always two hours on, two hours off, two hours on, two hours off for as long as it takes for the whole period. So you never get more than maybe an hour and a half sleep. um so it's Not a ton of sleep, um but I speak in both with Lieven and with Mike. It seems like um they didn't suffer too badly because over such, um you know, despite a few two-hour breaks in a day, um you you still get a reasonable amount of sleep if you manage to fall asleep straight away and if you're really good at you know being quick and not, you know, um I kind of waste a lot of time or or watch Netflix or whatever it is.
00:39:12
ukrunchat
Yeah.
Life on the Expedition: Shifts and Polar Bear Watch
00:39:13
Stefan Hacker
But it's not as hard as, well, I'm saying that as somebody who hasn't done it, but I was told that it is not quite as horrible as I would have expected in terms of sleep deprivation. And yeah, then one of us will always be on polar bear watch. So we got to make sure that we're not being attacked by a polar bear or if one tries to attack that we kill it, or not kill it, that we do it to shoot into the air give warning shots. Killing would only be the very last resort.
00:39:39
ukrunchat
yeah
00:39:42
Stefan Hacker
But yeah, that is a big um concern for myself. I'm not very keen on those pesky furries.
00:39:48
ukrunchat
Wow.
00:39:48
Stefan Hacker
They're the world's biggest land predator. um I think the biggest one they ever measured was more than a ton. But yeah, the bigger ones are definitely around, you know, up to 800 kilograms, so they're really big. They're extremely good swimmers. So even if we you know we might be days away from land and even from sea ice or whatever, um there could still be a polar bear you know trying to jump on board and and have a nice lunch.
00:40:01
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:40:13
Stefan Hacker
So you constantly have to be looking out for them. They don't reach out of the water very far. So you literally just see the top of their head. And um yeah in essence, they can swim for days on end and they are much faster than humans. so it's um it's definitely important to keep an eye out for them.
00:40:30
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:40:30
Stefan Hacker
And then um I guess other than that, um yeah, we're just going to make sure that we don't get into whether that's too bad. So if if the storms would be too strong, then we try to, you know, i see shelter somewhere along the coast, um not necessarily go and land, but try to be somewhere where it's more protected from the storms.
00:40:40
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:40:52
Stefan Hacker
And um yeah, so there's, um
00:40:56
Stefan Hacker
We're definitely going to be keeping busy, I think, and that's quite a few challenges to cover.
00:40:58
ukrunchat
You will.
00:41:03
Stefan Hacker
um yeah
00:41:04
ukrunchat
Yeah, I mean, there'll be less sea ice about sadly. won't there be but That's a very sobering thought, isn't it?
00:41:08
Stefan Hacker
they It is indeed, yes.
00:41:10
ukrunchat
Due to climate change.
00:41:13
Stefan Hacker
Yeah, Leven, I think, called it um the expedition that should not be possible um because, yeah, I mean,
00:41:18
ukrunchat
Yeah, it's worrying.
00:41:20
Stefan Hacker
We really are only able to do it because of climate change and every year it gets you know becomes less and less um ice and the temperatures might go up.
00:41:23
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:41:32
Stefan Hacker
So yeah, that is a huge concern.
Scientific Contributions and Real-Time Updates
00:41:34
Stefan Hacker
So ah one thing we will do is we will collect data, I think every two days or so, we will um ah kind of put a sensor into the water. I actually don't know how exactly it works. But um and we will collect data for a New York University that they will use in their climate research. And we also associate it with a number of um charities and NGOs that are you know fighting climate change and raising awareness.
00:41:59
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:42:03
ukrunchat
Yeah. Well, so is there a way that people can track you during your expedition or?
00:42:10
Stefan Hacker
Yes, absolutely. um On the Expedition website, and maybe if we could put a link somewhere, so that would be great.
00:42:17
ukrunchat
Yeah, we'll pop that in the show notes if people are interested, they can have a look actually.
00:42:20
Stefan Hacker
Oh, that would be great, yes.
00:42:21
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:42:23
Stefan Hacker
On the Expedition website, um there is one page that will track us real time, so basically a line that will just rapidly extend further.
00:42:35
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:42:35
Stefan Hacker
And I will also post updates. My wife and I run a little adventure blog, and so I will post updates there, hopefully on a daily basis. And um yeah, I think, I mean, one thing that will be weird is that we are so closely connected through you our electronic um equipment and and satellite telephones and internet, so closely connected to the rest of the world, but at the same time being you know pretty far away.
Post-Expedition Plans
00:42:59
Stefan Hacker
So yeah, it's it's going to be, I'd imagine it will be an awkward feeling just you know being able to ah ring anybody at home at any time you wish.
00:43:07
Stefan Hacker
and um communicate on the internet. But I think the challenges will at times be quite huge. So I do expect it to be challenging and um it's not without any risks, but yeah, it's a very experienced team. So I do feel quite confident. And yeah, I'd imagine are we which should be just fine and it will be a great type two or type three kind of fun but activity.
00:43:30
ukrunchat
Yeah, it'll be certainly memorable, won't it?
00:43:32
Stefan Hacker
Yes, I'd imagine, yeah.
00:43:34
ukrunchat
up Yeah, well, we look forward to hearing all about it on your return, Stefan, and I do wish you all the best with it.
00:43:37
Stefan Hacker
but Thanks so much.
00:43:40
ukrunchat
and Do you have, and I know we' we're kind of thinking about the expedition at the moment, but have you got more ultras planned, like towards the end of the year as well, that you're training?
00:43:48
Stefan Hacker
Yes, I had booked it a long time before I had even applied for the expedition, but I'm registered for the 13 valleys in the Lake District, which is a hundred miler.
00:43:48
ukrunchat
for
00:44:00
Stefan Hacker
I think it's 180 kilometers. So um they do say that ah running, especially ultra running, happens all in your head. And I very much hope that that is true because it's not going to happen in my feet after
00:44:08
ukrunchat
yeah
00:44:12
ukrunchat
who
00:44:13
Stefan Hacker
after having been on board a boat for such a long time, so I won't even stand up for extended periods.
00:44:18
ukrunchat
know your work will you
00:44:19
Stefan Hacker
So no walking, no running, hardly ever standing. So I think um i think I'll just you know take it fairly slowly. I think the cutoff time is 45 hours, so we'll see how that goes.
00:44:30
ukrunchat
you Maybe the sleep deprivation on the boat might help with kind of
00:44:32
Stefan Hacker
ah
00:44:36
ukrunchat
Just pacing yourself through the ultra.
00:44:37
Stefan Hacker
Oh, it could be to prepare for that 45 hours will without sleep.
00:44:39
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:44:42
Stefan Hacker
I have no ambition and I won um won't feel sad if I don't don't make it, but the idea um the idea is to actually attempt it. I've never done 100 miles before. But yeah, it would be funny the way um you said you in the Lake District quite a lot yourself, right? It's a beautiful ah part of the world and we'll be going through all varies there and it should be nice.
00:44:58
ukrunchat
It's gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's stunning, honestly. It's like ah it's like going to a different country. it's Yeah, it's beautiful.
00:45:06
Stefan Hacker
Yes, yeah, agreed.
Supporting Charities Through Adventure
00:45:08
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah. So, oh, well, thank you very much. It's been fascinating chatting to you. and Are there any ways that our listeners can support you on your journey or, you know?
00:45:13
Stefan Hacker
Thanks so much.
00:45:17
Stefan Hacker
Yes, ah that would be great. I'm collecting for, um or raising funds for a charity for three charities.
00:45:23
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:45:23
Stefan Hacker
It's a Royal national life board institution, R and L I are the people who run the, um, you know, their life um the the rescue along the UK's coast.
00:45:32
ukrunchat
Yep.
00:45:35
Stefan Hacker
um And um I also collect or raise funds for Cancer Research UK. My mom had been quite sick with cancer and um yeah, so I thought it would be nice to support a charity that has done a lot for cancer research and they share it internationally so everybody profits. And the last charity of those three is a charity called Heckney Quest. They help young people in Heckney, where I used to live before I moved to Central London, oh with um free fitness training, with mentoring, you know how to write their CVs, and yeah just generally um upping their skills. So if anybody would um want to support me and maybe give um and just a fiver or whatever it is to those charities, it would be greatly appreciated.
00:46:23
Stefan Hacker
so um If you could share the link, maybe I send it to you separately. um That would be great.
00:46:29
ukrunchat
Yeah, we'll pop that in the show notes. And what where can people find you on social media?
Closing Remarks and Summary
00:46:33
Stefan Hacker
On social media, I guess I'm ah largely through my blog, which is called Barkley Square Barbarian.
00:46:38
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:46:42
Stefan Hacker
um Again, I'll send you the link. But yeah, that's the name of the blog. And that's the main field. That is where my wife will post updates and pictures and sometimes a video. And um yeah, I guess the blog itself, if somebody wants to click on it, um I can tell you if they will, because I see another click.
00:46:58
ukrunchat
brilliant.
00:46:59
Stefan Hacker
I guess it's going to go up from 10 to 11.
00:47:01
ukrunchat
yeah ah I've been on it today, I've been reading the Q and&A about all about your expedition.
00:47:03
Stefan Hacker
but other other
00:47:07
Stefan Hacker
Excellent.
00:47:08
ukrunchat
and
00:47:10
Stefan Hacker
Well, thanks so much, Michelle. It's been great speaking and really appreciate the opportunity to get the name out. um And yeah, hopefully it'll assist with fundraising as well. But in any case, a great pleasure and I and always enjoy listening to your podcast.
00:47:22
ukrunchat
Yeah, and it's been lovely meeting you, Stefan. i I love chatting to all the different people in our community, so it's been wonderful just hearing all about your journey and the best of luck with the Northwest Passage.
00:47:31
Stefan Hacker
Thanks very much.
00:47:33
ukrunchat
Yeah, let do let us know how it goes.
00:47:36
Stefan Hacker
Will do, yeah, definitely. Well thanks again!
00:47:38
ukrunchat
Yeah, Angie, thank you out there to all of you listening as well. We really do hope you've enjoyed the episode and you'll find all the details and in the show notes if you do want to find out more about Stefan's adventure.