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Episode 278: Having a 'Blast' with Volcanologist Jess Phoenix
212 Plays3 years ago
Jess Phoenix (@JessPhoenix2018) is a volcanologist and the author of Ms. Adventure: My Wild Explorations in Science, Lava, and Life (Timber Press, 2021).
Lots of great stuff here.
Social Media: @creativenonfictionpodcast on IG and @CNFPod on Twitter.
Patreon: patreon.com/cnfpod
Sponsor help: mfa.wvwc.edu and thefacingprojectpress.submittable.com
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Transcript
The Awe-Inspiring Earth
00:00:00
Speaker
But when you are talking about how the earth is formed, I mean, why mountains exist, you know, how extinctions happened, why volcanoes work, that's the sort of stuff that it doesn't need embellishment. It doesn't need any kind of polish or spin. It's just so truly awe-inspiring.
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:22
Speaker
Oh.
00:00:22
Speaker
This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, how's it going? This week's guest is none other than Jess Phoenix, the Renaissance woman behind Misadventure, my wild explorations in science, lava, and life. Did my voice just crack? God damn it, my wild expolet, fuck!
00:00:57
Speaker
Should I leave this in? I mean, a professional would edit, but come on. My Wild Explorations in Science, Lava, and Life. Damn. Finally, it's published by Timber Press.
Jess Phoenix's Online Presence
00:01:10
Speaker
If you're still around, Jess is a cool cat, man. She's a volcanologist, which means she studies volcanoes. Those incredible things that help unlock the mysteries of the universe.
00:01:22
Speaker
burp up vog and lava bombs. Yeah, those exist. Jess has at one time or another studied English history, geology, and she has an MFA in creative nonfiction. She founded the prophet Blueprint Earth. She's delivered a TEDx talk. She owns a horse farm where she retrains retired thoroughbreds to become jumpers.
00:01:49
Speaker
If you're starting to feel shitty about your life, you're not alone. I'm guessing if she changed her citizenship to British, she'd win the bake-off, and she could still look like she could kick your ass in the end. Ugh. Oh, and get this. She also ran for Congress. Yeah, that building that was under attack earlier this year. On a science-based positive platform to combat misinformation and put science-centric people in seats of power.
00:02:18
Speaker
Naturally, she lost because our political system is broken and we're all doomed. She's at volcano.js on Instagram and at Jess Phoenix 2018 on Twitter. And you can learn more about her at volcanojs.com.
Promotion and Support
00:02:36
Speaker
Support for the Creative Nonfiction Podcast is brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan College's low residency MFA in creative writing. Now in its 10th year, hey we're on our 9th, this affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio and a strong sense of community. Recent CNF faculty include Randon Billings Noble, Jeremy Jones and CNF Pod alum Sarah Einstein. There's also fiction and poetry tracks.
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Speaker
Recent faculty there include Ashley Bryant Phillips and Jacinta Townsend as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. No matter your discipline, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. Visit mfa.wvwc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
00:03:23
Speaker
Hey, and also consider supporting the show via Patreon, patreon.com slash cnfbot. Shop around, see what you like. If you want to further support the CNF and community, I recently paid out the writers for issue two of the audio magazine.
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Speaker
you make that possible. Submission guidelines are up for issue three of the magazine. I'd like to be able to pay, if not the same, definitely more, or if not more, definitely the same. Wow, I'm having a rough go of it.
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Sometimes you need that person in your corner to keep you on pace, keep you on track, make sure your form is correct, and maybe to see things you can't see. So if you're ready to level up your work, whether it be book, essay, book proposal, you know it. Anything. I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go. Email me and we'll start a dialogue.
00:04:35
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Started a new Instagram account for the podcast. I know, I know. So you can keep the conversation going at Creative Nonfiction Podcast or at Brendan O'Mara on Instagram. And it's at cnfpod and at Brendan O'Mara on Twitter.
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Better yet, head over to BrendanOMara.com for show notes, to this and a million other interviews, and to sign up for my monthly reading list newsletter. Book recommendations, raffles, cool links to articles. Goes up to 11, man. Yeah.
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Rage against the algorithm, bro. Got a new review to read. These are always nice. If you care to write a review, I will read it on air as a shout out to show my gratitude. Listen, for a little show like ours, to have 107 ratings, to have 62 of those be written is bonkers.
00:05:28
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So please consider heading to Apple Podcasts and scribbling out something cool. I mean, it takes less than five minutes. Take this one from Janine. Literary Gold. I love the C&F podcast. I discovered it while at Hippo Camp Creative Nonfiction Conference in PA.
00:05:45
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And I've been devouring the archives ever since. Not only is Brendan interviewing a breathtaking array of literary luminaries, but he's engaging them in conversations that are genuinely fresh and enlightening. Provocative. These episodes get me thinking in new ways about the craft of writing, which I dearly appreciate, of course, as a writer myself.
00:06:05
Speaker
but also about what it really means to live and thrive as a writer. Had to be in this strange, challenging, beautiful life and keep loving it and pressing ahead with the work of it, not just in spite of the peculiarities we grapple with, but because of them. Janine, fist bumps and horns, thank you so, so much.
00:06:27
Speaker
So if you ever want a free shout out on this podcast, let me tell you something. Just send me an email, bet on me forgetting to reply to you, and then rely on me feeling guilty, and you just might get a free ad read at the top of the show.
00:06:43
Speaker
Enter The Facing Project for Nonfiction. Established from the publication of J.R. Jameson's memoir, Hillbilly Queer, the Empathy Prize is awarded for a book-length work that embodies connecting across differences, current events, and lifting up underrepresented voices. Submissions for the 2023 Empathy Prize are due September 30, 2021.
00:07:09
Speaker
More at thefacingprojectpress.submitable.com. There you go. Okay.
Jess's Work and Adaptations During the Pandemic
00:07:19
Speaker
So Jess is here, and she came to talk all things writing, volcanoes, science, rejection, subduction zones, and would she study rocks on the moon? Well, stay tuned. Here's a rockin' good time with a geologist. So let's do this thing.
00:07:51
Speaker
Nice, so tell me a little bit what you've been up to lately, you know, in terms of research and maybe even some of the things you might be scribbling about.
00:08:00
Speaker
Well, as of late, I have been sort of doing things differently than I would have in non pandemic times. Typically, the summer is reserved for data analysis with my nonprofit. And, you know, that's because we go to the Mojave Desert for our work. And we can only do that in the cooler months of the year. So roughly October through April, because I generally don't want to kill my students. And so
00:08:28
Speaker
You know, we use the summer for just massive data analysis, but since COVID started and we had to cancel our field expeditions in the spring of 2020, we haven't done any field work. So we've only been doing data analysis for the last year and a half.
00:08:44
Speaker
Um, and so now, you know, without the summers to just crunch through tons of data, and that's the only thing I could focus on, uh, I've been actually doing, um, I decided I wanted to get back into the more traditional classroom and I've been, uh, teaching geology at Pasadena city college here in California. And I haven't been in the classroom formally since 2010. So it was, it's been a bit of a like, Oh, I remember how to teach.
00:09:14
Speaker
But it's been kind of fun. So I'm teaching. My husband and I recently bought a horse stable with some friends of ours. So I'm getting back to training x-ray sources. And I rescue them from going in the slaughter pipeline. And then I give them a new skill set and find them new homes. So I'm doing that a lot more and waiting for the next big field expedition, which
00:09:42
Speaker
It's I was trying to put one together for the winter of this year. It was going to be winter of last year, but again, pandemic. And so now I was shooting for winter this year. National Geographic was very interested in filming it and making it part of one of their programs. But I just I can't get the permits to go to. This is an island chain in the southern Atlantic.
00:10:07
Speaker
So it's technically I would need permits from Argentina and also England. And they're not happening right now because of the levels of the pandemic still happening in that part of the world. So I'm just trying to like cross my fingers for the spring when I can get back to some real consistent field research. Wow.
00:10:31
Speaker
And that's incredible that you do the horse rescue and stuff. So much of a lot of writing I have done has been in the horse racing world. So it's a kind of a fraught relationship with the sport because I think it's mildly, if not very abusive. And I've covered it for years. I've written two books, one published with the horse racing as its backdrop.
00:10:58
Speaker
It's great to hear that you do that kind of thing because their their lives are very long with their racing careers are very short and it's great to hear that you can they do have to be sort of reconditioned rehabilitated based on the cloistered nature of the racetrack they have to learn how to be horses and it's great that you can
00:11:16
Speaker
teach them a new skill set and oftentimes they become jumpers after racing right yes yeah and that's what i do my background is in competitive show jumping but you know it's funny as diverse as humans are the same holds true for horses even within a specific breed like thoroughbreds i mean i i grew up reading i mean obviously to become a writer you have to be a reader and
00:11:38
Speaker
I grew up reading every single Walter Farley book I could get my hands on. And of course, you know, Black Beauty and anything even remotely related to horses, including random bits of poetry. And I think the thing to recognize is that even if you've got two thoroughbreds who are genetically similar standing next to each other, one could look like a quarter horse and
00:11:59
Speaker
And the other one could look like he should be a show jumper or a dressage horse. And you have to treat them as individuals, again, kind of like writing. Every story you're working on, every piece you're working on, you have to recognize that it's its own individual creature with its own inclinations. And you, as somebody who is ostensibly working with horses and or words, to belabor an analogy, you are obligated to allow the
00:12:29
Speaker
the piece or the horse to breathe a little bit and to become what it needs to be to serve the end result, which is a new owner or a reader.
Jess's Journey and Personal Growth Through Geology
00:12:40
Speaker
Right. And I was very excited to hear that you worked with my good friend Madeline Blaze at Goucher and on what would become Misadventure.
00:12:52
Speaker
I studied under her at UMass Amherst when I was an undergrad. And we've been in touch ever since. And so it was just so cool to see that you got to work with her. Yeah, you know, weirdly enough, I have been friends with her and her family since I was 14. Did you grow up in Western Massachusetts?
00:13:13
Speaker
I did not. I actually grew up in Colorado, but weirdly enough, so my my parents, my dad gets it in his head every so often that he likes to vacation in a certain place because he grew up pretty blue collar. And he basically got himself a law degree and joined the FBI and and so really like to to do the things that he saw other people who he admired doing. So he said, OK, we're going to go to Martha's Vineyard for
00:13:39
Speaker
of vacation in the summer. And he knew some guy from his FBI basketball league or something who said, oh, these friends of mine, John Katzenbach and Maddie Blaze, they're writers, and they have two kids the same age as your kids. And so they introduced us. We went over to John and Maddie's house that they had there. And
00:14:01
Speaker
I basically, I mean, I became friends with her son Nick and his friends, and their daughter Justine and my brother Alex sort of, you know, kind of hung out a little bit. And yeah, my parents have stayed friends with them for years. And when I went to Smith College in Western Mass, Maddie kept saying, Come take a class with me at UMass Amherst. And I finally did, but I had to convince Smith that journalism wasn't, and this is their term, too vocational. Because
00:14:29
Speaker
Yeah, they didn't want me to take a class that could potentially lead to me getting work apparently. So yeah, I had to get a course description from Maddie and write a you know, as eloquently crafted a letter as I could as a gosh, I think it was like my junior year. I had to I had to kind of
00:14:47
Speaker
finagle that, but I was able to take one class with Maddie in college. But she was fantastic. I mean, she was introducing me to people whenever somebody from the literati set would come through, you know, she would say, Oh, Eleanor Lippmann, you know, let's go have dinner with her. Hello,
00:15:02
Speaker
let's go to this Billy Williams reading. And so it was great because even though I had switched from English to history as my own major, I was still able to meet these writers in the flesh and say, oh, they are real people. I mean, aside from her and John. Yeah, that's great. Did you take the diaries, memoirs and journals class?
00:15:23
Speaker
No, I did a literature of travel and place. And it was, of course, memoir. But yeah, I think she, you know, names things slightly differently from now and then. But they have a similar vein.
00:15:35
Speaker
That's great. And I, in reading, geez, where did I read? I think it might have been the start of Misadventure where you, you know, you were in, of course, Northampton and Smith, but you had interned or worked at the Daily Ham Gazette as well. In what capacity did you, did you work there at that paper?
00:15:54
Speaker
So it was interesting, and this all ties into when I got to take that class with Maddie. So it was, I think it was the spring of 2002 or 2003, I'd have to double check, but I, or no, it was 03. I had a very bad semester and I almost failed out of college.
00:16:12
Speaker
was oversleeping. I wasn't eating right. I wasn't showering. I wasn't leaving my room. So I now know that I was clinically depressed, but it's one of those things that in the early 2000s wasn't as talked about or well understood in some circles. So I almost failed out an empathetic Dean at Smith said,
00:16:29
Speaker
you know what, I think I get what's going on here, you just need a chance to reset and get to a healthier place. So I'm going to give you a retroactive medical withdrawal. And then you can go take classes somewhere else and come back. And so I said, Okay, that solves one problem. However, my parents were very angry and said, we're not going to help you at all with paying for college until you prove you can do college again.
00:16:54
Speaker
So, I said, oh crap, I need jobs. So, I went and got a job at a retail store in Northampton called Good Dog, which sold nothing but dog accessories, and it was fantastic. And then I also was able to get that work at the Daily Hampshire Gazette.
00:17:13
Speaker
I got that job at the Daily Hampshire Gazette because they said, oh, you can come in from nine to one. And it was in the classified section, actually. So I was taking calls because people had to place their classifieds by phone. That's how long ago this was. So I was over sitting by the front door, taking classified ads for people. And then occasionally they'd say, hey, we need somebody to record an ad for us. Can you come over here and
00:17:41
Speaker
do this little ad, we know you've had an acting class. So I occasionally cut little 30-second ads or stood in as person on the street for different things, but it was mainly taking ads for people. And so nothing writerly, oddly enough, but it fit my schedule and allowed me to work at the retail store in the evenings. So I was basically taking classes from 1.30 PM until
00:18:09
Speaker
some nights until, you know, 9 or 10 p.m. and some nights until 6 p.m. when I'd go work my second job. So I was doing that and I was at UMass and also I had to take I took two classes or no sorry that semester it was entirely UMass. So I did basically just you know four classes or five classes I can't remember at UMass and then I kept the job at New Hampshire Gazette
00:18:32
Speaker
all through when I graduated. It was great. And I was able to work my schedule to be able to do the job and also do school the last year and a half of my time at Smith. That's amazing. During the fall of 2003 and into the winter of 2004. So it's my final year at UMass. I was interning with the Gazette as a photographer, actually. So I wonder if maybe our paths kind of crossed and we just didn't know it yet.
00:19:01
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Because if you walked in the front of the building, I was sitting there on that little low counter just to the left with the classified folks. I was there every day. I saw everybody who walked in and out. So I guarantee I've seen you before. That's crazy. So your history or English than history, and then you start dabbling in some of the physical sciences and everything.
00:19:28
Speaker
chart that arc for me a bit as you started to transition that education, the education of Jess Phoenix.
00:19:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a long path and a really good one. I fully embrace learning for the sake of learning. And I think that that's one of the best things that I got out of my childhood was you should always read, read more, read more, read more, ask questions, be curious. And so that's what I have done. And I thought I was going to be an English professor focusing on the study of T.S. Eliot because I was obsessed with his poetry and still vaguely am.
00:20:07
Speaker
TS Eliot tattoos on my forearms, which is like, that's hardcore. Yeah, people are like, what is your tattoo saying? I think they think it's going to be something about geology. And I'm like, well, it's about time. So technically, yes. But yeah,
00:20:22
Speaker
I mean, it's time time affects everything, especially rocks. But yeah, I, I thought, you know, English, then I ran into difficulty in the Smith English department. Professor and I really didn't get along to the point where I said, Okay, if this was is what's on offer, I think I need to switch. And I was shying away from science. In fact, in
00:20:45
Speaker
in 11th grade, or maybe 10th grade, it was somewhere in high school, I had to take chemistry with a I went to Catholic school in high school, and my teacher was a very bitter nun who was about to retire. And she also smoked a lot. So she had this like, really gruff voice. And she would miss one kid in our class, he was he was pretty spacey. And I will never be able to forget her saying, Medvan, you're a jackass.
00:21:12
Speaker
to him. And I'm like, this is a Catholic nun here. Okay. But this lady terrified me. And I got a C in her class. And I was basically a straight A student, or mostly straight A's for out throughout my academic career. So getting a C was appalling. And I thought I am terrible at science. I can't do science.
00:21:33
Speaker
that's it. I can never become a veterinarian. I can never, okay, got to go to the humanities. So when I had that disastrous semester in college, and I said, I'm just going to take classes that interest me classes that are fun, because I need to get back into this, I took
00:21:48
Speaker
I took the history of North American native peoples because I had always been curious about it. I took a poetry class. I took a drawing class. I took that class with Maddie Blaze, Literature of Travel and Place. And I took geology, just intro geology.
00:22:05
Speaker
That class was four hours straight in a windowless room there at UMass, and the professor, he spent the entire four hours writing on the overhead projector facing away from the class.
00:22:20
Speaker
So it was the driest presentation of science material you can imagine. But when you are talking about how the earth is formed, I mean, why mountains exist, you know, how extinctions happened, why volcanoes work, that's the sort of stuff that it doesn't need embellishment. It doesn't need any kind of polish or spin.
00:22:44
Speaker
It's just so truly awe-inspiring and all-encompassing that I just knew it. I was like, this is incredible. I only have, you know, after this semester, two semesters left. I can't change majors, but I really need to take more science classes about earth science specifically. And I did. I was able to the next semester
00:23:08
Speaker
take a class at Hampshire College that involved a National Science Foundation funded trip to Death Valley, California over spring break. And that was my first fieldwork. It was my first time camping, my first time going to the bathroom outdoors, which you probably noticed in the book was kind of a challenge for me. And it is why
00:23:29
Speaker
I am where I am today is because I had taken that really dry class that was very thorough and incredibly informative and the imagination that I had primed through all those years of reading Jules Verne and Robert Louis Stevenson, et cetera, et cetera, you know, Jack London, all of that stuff is why I said,
00:23:51
Speaker
OK, there's adventure here. There's exploration that's still to be done. We haven't figured out all the answers. We don't know everything. So let's go. Let's ask those questions and let's see where the answers take us.
00:24:04
Speaker
Yeah, and you write in the book that exploration is not about the individual explorer, just as science is not about the scientists. And through our exploration, it's through that that we finally come to know ourselves. So in what way has exploration and adventure through your geological pursuits allowed you to finally come to, you know, find you, find your own self and know yourself? Well, I think it's
00:24:35
Speaker
It's been a very interesting process because I think as as kids in the US, especially kids from let's say, a pretty standard middle class background, and in my case, my family was upwardly mobile throughout my childhood. It was like, how do you define yourself?
00:24:52
Speaker
especially if you're me, you're white and in a white neighborhood where I grew up, very, very white, Littleton, Colorado, you're thinking, what is my identity? Do I just grow up and become a doctor or a lawyer because that's what my parents want? Do I accept
00:25:09
Speaker
life as it was being written in the mid 90s when I was a teenager. And that life was essentially, you grow up, you go to college, if you're lucky enough to do so, you get a good job and you work your career and you get a family and you're done. That's that. And I was always reaching for something more. And I think that's why I connected with literature so strongly.
00:25:34
Speaker
is that when I was young, my family like our vacations consisted of family road trips shoved into the car at, you know, kind of cheap hotels or other family members houses. And it became like, Oh, then we could go to Martha's Vineyard. Oh, now we're gonna go to Hawaii as my parents built their wealth. And I kind of thought, Okay, well, I've traveled a little more. And here it's a little more. And now a little more. And I kept thinking,
00:25:58
Speaker
I want to go abroad. I want to see places where I don't look like everybody else, where I don't speak the language, where there's history that is so much longer than even the North American history that we saw with Native Americans. I want to see all of it and do all of it. And I think
00:26:18
Speaker
science was a vehicle for that that I never expected because we all grow up again in that North America 90 sort of way in the middle class is that explorers were old white guys who colonized everything and it's all been done. And so when you start to realize that scientists are explorers,
00:26:41
Speaker
scientists aren't just lab coats and beakers. I mean, yeah, that too. But also, scientists rappel down cliffs, scientists train to go to the bottom of the ocean or to climb the highest peaks. And scientists have to deal with, you know, people with weapons, they have to deal with chaos and destruction and warfare.
00:27:02
Speaker
or guerrilla activity in some countries just to get data that could potentially save lives. It's like, oh, exploration is still here. It's just it looks like something different now. It doesn't look like just wealthy old white guys from Britain or, you know, Europe who say I'm going to go teach these, you know, poor, ignorant native people something. Now it's
00:27:28
Speaker
Scientists trying to understand the world so that we can have a better future and that to me is just delightful and It sounds like you grew up Loving loving books doing a lot of reading Was there ever a part of you that? Wanted to be a writer as a as when you were when you were a little and then that you know grew into something as you became a you know a professional and
00:27:52
Speaker
Yes, but mainly I thought I was going to do poetry. I really, really loved poetry. I started writing it in sixth grade. Not that it was anything to write home about, but it was, you know, I had some moments when I've come across, you know, the papers that we turned in.
00:28:11
Speaker
and that my dad kept or whatever throughout the years. And I'm like, oh, this part was actually kind of good. Like there was something there. And so I thought, oh, poetry, poetry, poetry. But then somewhere along the way, I convinced myself that what I wrote wasn't going to be good enough.
00:28:27
Speaker
that I was really good at writing essays, I was really good at doing assignments, but that I didn't have anything creatively to say that would interest anyone else. Because again, you start having imposter syndrome at various points in your life, depending on who you are. And mine was like, well, it's just angsty teenage poetry.
00:28:48
Speaker
like you, you know, you can't make this into anything. And so the negative self talk is real. And so then I just said, Well, I'll read other people's work, and I'll write about it, I will try to clarify it for people, because I'm relatively decent at taking complex subjects and distilling them. So I said, Okay, well, I'll read and love john Irving,
00:29:09
Speaker
you know, who became my obsession in my college years and actually late high school all the way through college and even continues today. But I will read that stuff. I will read D.S. Eliot and I will interpret it and explain it and get people excited about it. And so I did that for a while, you know, with my English forays and then
00:29:28
Speaker
you know, now as a as a teacher, when I taught at, you know, geology, even my whole goal was getting people excited about what was out there. And then it took a while and it took years of doing field research and having these adventures and then saying what had happened to people like Maddie Blaze. And Maddie just kept saying, when are you going to write a book? And I'd say, well, Maddie, I'm not good enough to write a book. You know, I don't I don't have anything unique to say. And then I think it was
00:29:58
Speaker
It was right around the time where I finally did my first show on Discovery, which was a disaster. It was Trailblazers. It went horrifically wrong because, again, they weren't trying to include any science in their ostensibly science-oriented show, and it was such a bad experience. But when I got back and I told people about it and I said,
00:30:23
Speaker
you know, there's something here, like, people need to know about this volcano in Ecuador, they need to know about what scientists actually do. And when I'd say, oh, yeah, well, in Peru, I fell in a sewer and then went on this expedition, and then there were horse thieves, and people go, wait, wait, what?
00:30:40
Speaker
What did you just say? And I'm like, oh, well, no, that was just what I did last summer. And I kind of went, wait, this is a little bit different. And I think this is sort of like that analogy that people like to bring up of people going into a situation like a frog sitting in a pot of water, and then the heat gradually increases and the frog doesn't notice. It's like that when you're starting to do things that are, by most measures,
00:31:06
Speaker
a bit outside the ordinary, even bordering on extraordinary, where you're like, well, I just started doing it. I just said yes. And then I got asked to do this other thing. And I said yes. And then I wanted to do this third thing. And I said, yeah, let me make it work. And then you just suddenly your normal is everybody else's unusual.
00:31:23
Speaker
And when I realized that's what I was living was completely unusual, that I needed to talk about it with people to show them that they too could do unusual things or that unusual things still existed. And not everything is a nine to five office job, that there's still a lot out there. And even if you do a nine to five office job, you can still wonder in the the infinite diversity of it all.
00:31:48
Speaker
How did you wrestle with the negative self-talk that often plagues many, many writers as you were looking to string together these stories for what would ultimately become this adventure?
00:32:03
Speaker
Well, it definitely at first seemed like a giant train wreck of things. And I thought, what is a story in here? There's no story. And then I didn't want to make myself like, oh, look at the hero's journey. Because I'm like, I'm not a hero. I'm just a person who just just happened to be very fortunate in a lot of ways and works hard in a lot of other ways. And those things just worked out. So I.
00:32:31
Speaker
I kind of said when I got to Goucher to do my MFA at Maddy Blaze's urging, I said, all right, I need help. Help. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I've read all these books. I don't have an amazing idea for a story. I just have my experience.
00:32:47
Speaker
I have my journey through geology and through time and place and a degrees of understanding and experience. And I had my first semester there, my mentor was Susanna Lessard. And I think this is probably true for a lot of people who've been through school, whether it's typical K-12 schooling or college or higher ed of any sort.
00:33:15
Speaker
sometimes you take away from a class like one big thing, and sometimes a couple small things. But with Susanna, that semester, we were in our workshops at the beginning of the semester. And I was just on the verge of deciding to run for Congress, but also going, I just started this program getting my MFA. I'm doing way too many things at once. And Susanna kind of saw that I'm always sort of a bit of a tornado in how I function.
00:33:43
Speaker
And she said, start with a timeline. Just make a timeline. That's it. And I said, OK, of what? And she said, well, make a timeline of the expeditions you went on, put them in order, and then put a timeline of world events on there and then put a timeline of
00:34:03
Speaker
Your own personal life and see if those things match up see if there are connections See if you know because I obviously started my geology work in in 2003 as You know fall 2003 in my first field work in spring 2004 The US was just starting. We're relatively new into the war with Afghanistan George Bush was the president and and so we were in this period where
00:34:32
Speaker
Things were really different. There was a lot of change. And I didn't decide to include the big current events in the book. And Susanna said, I might or I might not. But just having her say, put a structure to it. And then you can decide if you're going to tell the story in a linear way or not.
00:34:48
Speaker
And then I kind of went, oh, the thing that ties all of it together is exploration. It's not just a series of expeditions. It is me learning what it is to be an explorer in this day and age and what exploration means to our future and to me personally.
00:35:08
Speaker
I mean, my journey has been so unconventional. I didn't wake up at six and say, I'm going to be a geologist and do that forever. And so I think showing people that you can find these connecting threads, even in your messy personal journey, it's possible. It really is possible. And the person you are as a little kid might still be under there as you get older.
00:35:33
Speaker
if the little kid is strong enough, it may keep popping up again and again to steer you back to the things that get you excited to wake up in the morning.
00:35:42
Speaker
And speaking of journeys and specifically kind of a journey of the mind right now, you're thinking, you know, you go English and history, then geology and PhD work, and then, you know, MFA and creative nonfiction. So, you know, along that train specifically with considering the MFA, like, what made you, you know, give it all the experience, all the education that you've had today? Like, what made you think like, oh, I should jump into this program because this might help in some way?
00:36:13
Speaker
Well, they tell you things when you're young. They say, oh, sciences are this. Writing and literature is that. Math is this other thing. Everything has its little place. And I think that's also because that's how we do education largely, is you go to this class, then you go to this class, then you go to that class.
00:36:34
Speaker
And the interdisciplinary aspect of it is sort of lacking. And in my science work, I recognize that. And I had started the nonprofit that I run, Blueprint Earth, because I think we need blueprints of how the entire Earth functions as a system. And it's a very complex system, just like our brains are complex systems. And so I thought about how
00:36:58
Speaker
do I organize all of this? How do I reach across different disciplines? And then I came to the realization that science is what we use to understand how the world around us works. It's how we categorize things. It's how we name things. It's how we define them. It's how we put them in predictable places or we relegate them to, well, we can't quite predict it, but at least we can understand it like volcanoes.
00:37:24
Speaker
We don't necessarily think about that in terms of, OK, then now that we understand it, how do we explain it? How do we give it meaning in our human lives? Because humans, we are so wonderfully complex.
00:37:40
Speaker
And there are people out there who are wildly artistic and they create art and they express themselves through art. And there are people who consume the art or consume in this day and age, again, the media. I hate the term consumers. Oh, consumers this, consumers that because I think everyone should both create and consume or produce and enjoy. But I think that it was the realization that ding, ding, ding, this is what humanities and the arts
00:38:07
Speaker
That's what they're there for. We understand the order of the world through science, and we give it meaning and weight through art. And only through communicating what we know via science does the science actually have any value. So that's why I said, oh my God, I need the structure and the assistance and the perspective of people who live in the world of words
00:38:33
Speaker
to help me clarify the things I've come to understand through science and exploration.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I think in reading your book and listening to your TED Talk, that there's a very, there's, I saw the parallels between you and a Carl Sagan and a Neil deGrasse Tyson, who are these great brilliant minds in their field, but also equally brilliant communicators. And in the case of Sagan, a downright poet in a way, the way he's able to articulate that little blue dot,
00:39:06
Speaker
in those Voyager missions when they turn that camera around to face what it is, our solar system. And it's incredible to marry those two. And I think what you've done with your book here, and I imagine what you're gonna do going forward, is going to continually marry these two things of the wonderful research you're doing, but also to communicate it to people so they can be energized and connect.
Science Communication and Empathy in Teaching
00:39:34
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And that's it. Right now, and again, being back in the classroom has really reenergized me in a really strong way because I do a lot of science communication work. And it's fortunate now to see that science communication as a discipline is becoming more recognized, more appreciated. In fact, I know there's a university in England that actually has a science communication PhD now.
00:40:01
Speaker
And learning how to communicate your science is not taught in schools. Scientists do not get a crash course of like, all right, here's how to do some public speaking, or here's how to write for a non-scientific audience. But we need more of that. And being in the classroom at a community college, you have students there from all different backgrounds. Not a single one thinks, oh, I'm going to be a geology major out of my class. I ask them. And the closest was one guy who was interested in biology.
00:40:30
Speaker
And that was it. So what I did is, you know, I asked them their majors. And interestingly enough, two weeks into the course, I got an email from a student who said, I am a studio art major, but these two weeks in your class have me thinking that I want to switch to at least environmental science, if not geology. And please help.
00:40:52
Speaker
And so here I am apparently reaching the studio art majors of the world and and it's because you have to meet people where they are and I firmly believe that there is something in literature for everyone just like there is something in science for everyone because you know humans are
00:41:10
Speaker
are not one-dimensional or even two-dimensional creatures. We are multi-dimensional. And it's just, it's sort of like what we've nurtured or what the world has forced us into is the language we speak day to day. But that doesn't mean that a car mechanic can't be curious about black holes.
00:41:27
Speaker
you know, and they should be curious about that stuff. So I really, really think that I've finally found, you know, I'm almost 40, I'd be 40 in January, but I think I figured it out. And I'm still answering the question, what do you want to be when you grow up? Because you know, I'm not done. I don't think we're ever done growing up. But
00:41:47
Speaker
I think I figured out that my place, my reason for being is to connect people. And whether that's connecting them to each other or connecting them to literature or science or art or just the world around us, that's why I'm here. I want people to feel like they're not alone and that there is a place for them. And they can find that in whatever way suits them, but they also need to understand that the other ways aren't scary or foreign to them.
00:42:15
Speaker
They are just as much their birthright as anybody else's. Yeah, in the writing community, sometimes it can be a little bit competitive and sometimes people get into more scarcity mindsets where you don't want to, you don't want to share things or you just get kind of competitive or jealous or this, that and the other.
00:42:37
Speaker
And in your TED Talk, you talk about, you know, a big key is to share in the inspiration and to really, you know, the undercurrent of that is community sharing, bringing people together, celebrating people's work. So in what way have you tried to foster that sense of community, whether it be in the science community and or the writing community?
00:43:01
Speaker
Well, I really, really think that we need to, everybody needs to see who's coming up the road behind them, basically. Who's coming next? And it doesn't have to be an age thing. I mean, sometimes the person you're mentoring or engaging with may be much older than you.
00:43:19
Speaker
But you have to think like, OK, I have done this. And it may just be a basic thing. Like you may be a kid. I mean, I don't know how many young listeners you have, but let's say you have a kid in sixth grade listening to this. Well, guess what? There's all those fifth, fourth, third graders behind you. And what can you do to open a door for them?
00:43:37
Speaker
particularly if you've had an experience that is challenging or hard or bad like what can you do to say I don't want someone else to struggle like I did I want them to have a better experience because if you think about it
00:43:52
Speaker
each of us carries trauma from our life, right? Whether it's normal, quote, unquote, normal trauma, like losing a relative, you know, to natural causes, like old age, you lose a grandparent or something, or whether it's trauma, like, you know, you're you were involved in a you're a victim of a school shooting or a car accident or assault.
00:44:12
Speaker
Or let's say it's a bigger picture thing and your family was involved in one of the wars that turned out to be a genocide and you've been displaced. You carry those traumas and everybody has their own traumas. So what we can do as humans is use the empathy that we have to say,
00:44:29
Speaker
All right, I had I had to suffer in some way. How can I make it so that the next person walking this path doesn't have to suffer? Because think about what they could accomplish if they're not suffering, if they're not just coping. And so for me, that's what I'm trying to do is is open doors for people. And sometimes it's one person, like I was having a rough week when my student emailed me and said, I'm I really think I love this stuff. And I kind of went, Oh,
00:44:57
Speaker
Right. I did this for this person. I have shown her a new way of thinking about the world. And who knows? She may become a geologist. She may become an environmental scientist. She may change her mind and do something else entirely. But for one moment, you give somebody a possibility, and you let them see themselves in a different way, in a way that is a proactive way. It's a I can do something. Instead of I have to or I should or I can't,
00:45:26
Speaker
You just you change their narrative even for a few moments and that that makes it all worthwhile So that's what i'm trying to do and whether I connect with people at my horse stable Who are trying to work with a difficult horse and I help them through it Um, or whether it's you know on the stage talking in front of a group of scientists or a group of writers I just want them to think even just for a moment that yes They can do something that they desire or that they've got an idea of how to move forward then i'm like, okay I did something good check
00:45:57
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, there's so much that's awful in the world these days in so many ways. And we all need a little bit more inspiration and motivation and support. And regarding your writing, what do you, on a day-to-day or project-to-project basis, struggle with and wrestle with as you try to get words down and string together a narrative?
Coping with Procrastination and Volcanoes
00:46:23
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Well, for me, I am the world's worst procrastinator. I always have been. If I have something to do, I do it right before it's due. I will always work that way. Like, I just know that about myself. And I've tried to change it. It is so solidly embedded in me. So now I have workarounds where if I know, like, for Misadventure, for that book, I knew that I had deadlines to give to my publisher.
00:46:49
Speaker
I'm terrified of deadlines. So I'm like a rule-following procrastinator, which is the worst. In college, I once had a 25-page history paper due. I did it in 18 hours straight right before it was due to be turned in. Don't recommend that approach, but it is how I got things done. So over the years, I would just put it in my calendar. I'd say, this is due this date. And then I would go a week before and say, this is due now. So I would have two due dates.
00:47:19
Speaker
And the first due date would be the soft due date. And that would mean that, OK, I probably really had to start looking at things then. So I use it as kind of a buffer. And I'm pretty good now at saying, OK, do I have 100 pages due, or do I have to prepare a 30-minute talk?
00:47:37
Speaker
And then I know how much time it takes me to do those things. And then what I will do is carve out a hard, solid block of time, even if it's just a couple days before it's due, to get it done. And that's, I mean, sometimes I will stay up all night to do stuff, because that's how I get my best work done. And I know a lot of people are taught that if you're a procrastinator, that's a bad thing.
00:48:01
Speaker
And I'm like, look, I can only write in short bursts. And so this is how I have to do it. And so unless I have a deadline, I won't get stuff done. So knowing that or knowing and just acknowledging whatever your hang up is can be a real help. Like if you know, you're like, I get writer's block after, you know, I've been writing for a couple weeks, it just happens.
00:48:22
Speaker
Just recognize it. Let it be. I mean, it is. It's how you do it. And sometimes you may have strategies for overcoming it because you can't avoid it. But if you can, if you can afford to give yourself the space and the time, do that. You know, don't
00:48:37
Speaker
don't beat yourself up for being a procrastinator or for getting writer's block, just recognize that it happens. And then say, okay, just like with anybody else, if somebody came to you and said, you know, I can't run, I've got a sprained ankle, you're not going to tell them to go run, you're going to figure out how you can help them. And so do that to basically treat others, treat yourself the way you would treat others, I guess, as a way of putting it, reverse the golden rule.
00:49:04
Speaker
And I love how you write about volcanoes, how they merge this thing that is beautiful and brutal. And maybe you can just articulate that for someone who hasn't been to the lip of these active volcanoes in the ways that they are both beautiful and brutal.
00:49:23
Speaker
Well, I first want to acknowledge where I got the beauty and brutality dichotomy from and that's my life changing English teacher from high school who was my 10th grade teacher and then I had him again for three classes for 12th grade and he was phenomenal. Everybody who went to Mullen High School and had Mr. Tom Hilbert as their teacher
00:49:44
Speaker
knows what I'm talking about when I say this. The man was just phenomenal. He was the Carl Sagan of English teachers. And he had sets of words up in his classroom. His classroom was moderately terrifying the first time you walked into it. Because there's things like there's a little tiny handwritten sign by the door that said read or die. And you were like, the fact that this is handwritten
00:50:10
Speaker
It's very threatening. So we go in there and around the classroom on eight by 11, you know, eight and a half by 11 papers just taped to the wall right where the ceiling meets the walls were wall words is what he called them. And they were always in pairs. And my favorite pair was beauty and brutality.
00:50:30
Speaker
And he had these words up around the classroom because then he would give us something to write and he would say, okay, using wall words, write about your last Tuesday or whatever, you know. And so it was almost like writing prompts that you would get in a traditional writing program. But it was also for us to think about these words. And a lot of times they didn't go together super well.
00:50:50
Speaker
But beauty and brutality did and does. And to me, I think it's what nature is. It's, you know, staggering beauty and really disturbing brutality. And volcanoes are, to me, the most essential form of that because they are the Earth.
00:51:09
Speaker
in its rawest, purest, most unadulterated state. I mean, nothing humans can do changes the way volcanoes erupt. We cannot control them. We cannot contain them. We can't stop them. And when you are seeing a volcanic eruption in person,
00:51:26
Speaker
It's not just a visual experience. You do see the ash being ejected into the air. You see lava bombs coming out of the volcano at almost 200 miles an hour. You see pyroclastic debris like rolling, rushing down the sides of the volcano. Those can reach 500 miles an hour if you're talking like a Mount St. Helens eruption. And then you also, if you're there, you smell it.
00:51:53
Speaker
You smell the way the air changes. Sometimes it smells like sulfur, depending on how close you are. You taste it. You can taste the volcanic ash as grit. It's pulverized rock. So it'll get into your mouth. It'll get up your nose. It'll get in your eyes. And then you feel it. You feel this true power of Earth, the explosion, the force of it, the earthquakes it produces, the actual physical explosion that we see on the surface. You feel it in your chest.
00:52:22
Speaker
it will rattle your rib cage. And that's because, I mean, volcanoes produce sound that is below the capacity of human hearing to perceive. So it is the deepest of bases. It's truly all-encompassing. And as a human, it makes you feel
00:52:41
Speaker
really privileged to be able to witness that, that we are on a living planet. It is changing every single day. The ground beneath our feet is not firm and static and unyielding. It is constantly being shaped
00:52:56
Speaker
by eruptions, by plate tectonics, by wind and water and time. Just every little bit of erosion is totally shaping our world and it's been going on since the earth formed and it will be going on for billions of years after we as a species are gone.
00:53:15
Speaker
And so we are lucky enough as creatures to have sentience. Like we can be consciously aware of these processes and see them happen. So that to me is the magic of volcanoes is that we see things that are so much bigger than us.
00:53:32
Speaker
But in one moment, we are part of it. And that's why volcanoes to me are both beautiful and brutal, because yeah, they can kill you. They can kill a lot of people at once, and they do. So they're scary, and they're dangerous, and we have to respect them and understand how to live with them. But they are so much bigger. They're so vast. They hold all of the secrets of the universe inside of them that how can you not wonder at their beauty while at the same time marvel at the brutality of it all?
00:54:01
Speaker
Yeah, that echoes the great quote that you cite from James Hutton, which is, the result therefore of our present inquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end.
00:54:14
Speaker
Yeah, and you know what? I didn't realize that was a quote from Hutton until I went into geology in college. But at the age of 12, I started listening to the punk band Bad Religion. And it's kind of amazing. But the lead singer of Bad Religion, he has a master's degree in geology, and he got a PhD in zoology.
00:54:36
Speaker
And so this is what happened to poetry in my mind, like we don't have people, you know, venerating poets, except fortunately, Amanda Gorman, which is a great change from how it used to be. But we don't have the veneration of poets that they did, you know, a couple hundred years ago. And so the poets have become the songwriters and
00:54:55
Speaker
Greg Graphen of Bad Religion said, you know, no, there's we find or there she said, in the song, I think it was no control. He said, there's no vestids of a beginning, no prospect of an end. And, you know, he put it in a punk song that I knew when I was 12 years old. And I was like, when I went to took geology classes, I went, wait, wait, they're quoting
00:55:18
Speaker
Oh my God, they're quoting hut okay. Yeah it is it's in the song no control by bad religion and it's like wow that's it right there that's the intersection of science and art. It's just it's right there it's in front of me it's it was something I was already living and you know and and loving from a young age and then turns out it's about geology.
00:55:45
Speaker
In your research and in your boundless curiosity, what are the questions you are asking right now of volcanoes that you need answered?
00:55:58
Speaker
Okay, so the big question with volcanoes is essentially, it's not can we predict them or how do we predict them? We can't predict eruptions. And maybe someday we might get there, but we're not there. But so the main central question I believe that exists in volcanology right now is,
00:56:17
Speaker
How do we educate people enough to live with volcanoes? Because half a billion people around the world live in the shadow of active volcanoes. So that's a lot of people that are in danger on any given day because of where they live. But we also need them. So many places, the reason people are living right near volcanoes is because they produce great land for growing crops.
00:56:44
Speaker
the weather patterns around volcanoes, they're helpful for people to grow crops. So this is something where it's like, okay, we like living near them. I mean, think about the Ring of Fire, all down the coast of North America, Central America, South America, and then over to Oceania and up to Japan and Alaska, that's the Ring of Fire. And people aren't about to leave New Zealand just because there were volcanoes there. So we need to,
00:57:13
Speaker
figure out how we can inform people about these dangers and how we as scientists, how do we balance communicating the very real dangers to people with the needs of people to continue their daily lives? Because we can't just up and evacuate millions of people because a volcano is showing unrest.
00:57:33
Speaker
You have to be pretty certain that the unrest could escalate to something dangerous. And there have been some really great books done about how you weigh those dangers. There's one that I really like called No Apparent Danger. Gosh, I think her name is Victoria. I'm going to look it up because your reader or your listeners or your readers also need to to know her book, Victoria Bruce.
00:57:59
Speaker
So what she talks about is a couple of distinct volcanic disasters at volcanoes in Colombia and what it taught the international community about how we deal with the threat of volcanoes and how humans living on their flanks or at the foot of the volcano or in the hazard zones
00:58:20
Speaker
can exist in those areas and what responsibility governments and scientists and scientific agencies have towards those communities. And I mean, there's so much good work being done on these subjects now. I'm encouraged because for a long time, communicating science to the public has been really just given a backseat that now that it's gaining urgency in the scientific consciousness
00:58:49
Speaker
I think bodes well for the future of volcanology and for other scientific disciplines. Now, I know you love yourself a good subduction zone, so maybe talk a little bit about what fascinates you about subduction zones, given that I live right on the edge of one here in Western Oregon.
00:59:12
Speaker
Oh, Cascadia, Cascadia. Cascadia, that whole area, I have concerns for all of you. I tell people, the one place I wouldn't want to live is actually Seattle. Well, South Seattle or Tacoma. Wonderful, lovely places, but they are at risk for mudflows from Mount Rainier, which have been 100 feet thick in the past.
00:59:39
Speaker
They're at risk for typical eruption stuff. They're at risk for tsunami and of course major earthquakes. So that part of the country really needs to have preparedness and natural hazards in their consciousness. It just has to be a part of your life if you're up there. And I really think subduction zones are fascinating. I wanted to, when I started my career as a geology master's student,
01:00:06
Speaker
I wanted to look into subduction zones and the energy released during subduction, because for people unfamiliar, that's the process where one tectonic plate dives beneath another. And it's usually, it's the older denser oceanic crust, not older, but the
01:00:23
Speaker
Oceanic crust is new at divergent margins, basically the centers of the oceans where new lava comes up out of the ocean floor, and then their oldest at the edges of those plates where they collide with continents, like in the case of North America and the Pacific plate. The North American plate is granite, which is less dense, and the oceanic Pacific plate is basalt, which is more dense.
01:00:49
Speaker
So the denser plate goes beneath the less dense plate and it creates earthquakes, big ones from time to time. And so that's what's going on on the coast of the Western US and it can cause huge releases of energy because that's what earthquakes are. They're just
01:01:06
Speaker
rocks storing energy, storing, storing, storing like a rubber band that's being stretched to its almost its breaking point. And then a little bit more energy goes into the system and the rubber band snaps and the rocks break and we get a major earthquake. So thinking of rocks as things that can store energy kind of throws people for a loop. But I'm I'm just so interested in potentially someday down the line, getting energy from earthquakes and from tectonic activity.
01:01:34
Speaker
because we're already harvesting energy from geothermal activity, from volcanoes, maybe someday we could get to that point. And that's not going to be me that figures that out. But I hope someday we can use that energy that the Earth generates as a positive. Maybe we'll get there.
01:01:52
Speaker
Now, this might be this is kind of an idiotic question. This is kind of like the journalist asking the scientists the question. But I understand the tectonics in that they move in in subduction zones and how just fundamentally how they operate. But how what is causing the motion at the at the at the floor of the ocean? What you know, what's causing the motion of those plates?
01:02:18
Speaker
Well, it's not a bad question at all. It's one that I think most people may have heard at some point in their life, if they went to decent school. If they didn't, you know, I'm sorry, I hope you hear it now. But the Earth is a giant heat engine. And the Earth has retained a lot of heat from the creation of the universe and from the creation of the planets.
01:02:41
Speaker
So earth in particular, the hot stuff has attracted to itself. So the earth's core is nickel iron, largely, and it has retained a lot of heat. And then as you go out from the earth's inner core, you then have the outer core, which is also a solid, then you get to the mantle. And the mantle is a it's it behaves like a liquid, it's a plastic solid, so it flows.
01:03:05
Speaker
And the easiest way to understand what's going on under the earth's surface right now under the crust in the mantle Is think of the core as a burner on your stove And then the mantle as a pot of water on top of that burner
01:03:20
Speaker
And so the center of the burner where the flame is the hottest, that water heats up, goes up to the top, bubbles, and then moves to the sides as it's replaced, pushed over by hot, fresh stuff. So it's basically just convection. That's what's happening. It's convection just like happens on your stove with a pot of water. That's what's going on in our mantle. And it's driven by the retained heat in the Earth's core. So billions of years old heat is what is causing earthquakes today.
01:03:51
Speaker
Fascinating. And what keeps the core of the earth as hot as it is all the time to ensure this sort of this confection effect? Is it just massive pressure?
01:04:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's basically the thickness of the Earth itself. So because, I mean, it's thousands of miles thick, we've only been a few miles down into the crust with all of our drilling. So we haven't even gotten through the Earth's crust and the crust makes up like the entirety of the Earth's crust. So ocean floor and continents makes up 1% of the Earth's entire mass.
01:04:27
Speaker
So what is beneath our feet is so much bigger than any individual human has the ability to conceive of. It's like, oh, of course, it's all the insulation just provided by the bulk of the planet itself. And yeah, if it seems fantastic and improbable, it is.
01:04:43
Speaker
The fact that we exist riding around on this thin crust, this little skin on top of this giant heat engine hurtling around the sun at thousands of miles an hour. Yeah, it's super improbable and it's amazing. What is the at what point do you delineate a volcano as extinct versus merely dormant?
01:05:07
Speaker
when it no longer has any source of heat. That's when we say, yep, this one's just not going to erupt again, barring something very, very big and catastrophic happening. And so the Hawaiian Islands are the perfect example. It's what I always teach about. So the Big Island is the one on the south
01:05:26
Speaker
east side of the island chain. That one is still volcanically active. That's home to Kilauea and Mauna Loa. And then the next Hawaiian island, which is called Loihi, that's still under the ocean. And it will emerge, but thousands of years from now. But that is still active. But if you go to the north and the west,
01:05:47
Speaker
you have Kauai and the island of Kauai, the island of Oahu, the island of Maui. So Kauai and Oahu are done. They will not erupt again. They have moved off of the hotspot that is feeding the growth of the Hawaiian Islands. And the plate that they're part of has just shifted over, you know, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years away from that hotspot.
01:06:10
Speaker
And even on the Big Island, there's five volcanoes that make up that island. Only two are, you know, really of concern right now. Kilauea is erupting, and Mauna Loa could erupt again, will erupt again. Mauna Kea will have maybe a little bit more before it's done. And Hualalai, which is a much less famous one, will erupt again. It last erupted about 200 years ago. And then Kohala is extinct.
01:06:38
Speaker
on that island there is a volcano that is done and so even within one island you can see the different stages of a volcano's life and it's pretty cool and Maui does have Haleakala could erupt again but it last erupted I believe in the 1700s so if it erupts again it likely won't be a very big eruption it'll be something small is what we believe based on the data we've got so it's a process and they do go through cycles and it all depends on the hot spot
01:07:07
Speaker
And as long as a plate is basically over where this upwelling goes or where subducted material, so crust that is going back down into the mantle, gets melted, then that melt will rise because hot things rise. That's basic physics. That's what's happening in Japan and some of the other island areas of volcanism or South America, Central America. As long as that's happening, the volcanoes will have fuel.
01:07:36
Speaker
if the plate shifts and the crust isn't subducting there anymore, we won't have eruptions there anymore. And that's that. Last time I was on Haleakala, it was a clear day and I could see the big looming shield volcano of Mauna Loa. It was just gorgeous seeing this thing. I'm like, oh my God, this thing is just a beast out there on the horizon.
01:08:02
Speaker
Yes, it is huge. And actually, bigger even than that. Yeah, I mean, so Mauna Kea is huge. Mauna Kea is almost 14,000 feet high. Mauna Loa is almost 14,000 feet high as well. So here you've got this island that you can drive around in one day. And it's home to two almost 14,000 foot high volcanoes. And Mauna Loa, from its base in the seafloor to its summit at almost 14k, is bigger than Mount Everest.
01:08:31
Speaker
And when you tell people that, they're like, wait, what? And you say, yeah, think about the ocean. Think about how deep it goes. I mean, you're talking miles of depth. And, you know, we are just now as as little human creatures, we are just now able to go to some of these more extreme environments and get data. So there is still so much out there about these volcanoes that is yet to yet to be discovered. And there's so much more for us to learn.
01:08:59
Speaker
And as a writer, how have you come to terms with the inevitability of rejection in dealing with that side of being a writer?
01:09:14
Speaker
Oh my gosh. At some points in my life, I'm like, wow, I suck. I'm not going to accomplish X, Y, or Z. But I'll tell you, we've all dealt with rejection and maybe in ways that we don't think we're good. But we've all done it. It's just part of being human. And as a writer, I mean, I just kind of go, oh, okay. Well, they didn't want whatever I was offering. That's fine. And when I was
01:09:39
Speaker
getting in, you know, I was in all the talks with the different publishing houses to publish Ms. Adventure, certain publishing houses were, they wanted me to just write a book on a popular science book on volcanoes. And I said, well, I can do that. But that's not what I've got here. And at first, I was a little sad, because some of them were like the big five publishing houses. Or, you know, and I was like, Oh, like, they really wanted to talk about the book. And then when they heard that it was like, more of a memoir, they kind of went, Oh,
01:10:08
Speaker
Oh, and I said, Yeah, but you don't understand there's no like field science memoirs that have what I have here. And so I basically said, you know, I created this, this is me. They're not rejecting me, they're rejecting something I created, and they're not rejecting it, because they think it's not good enough. It's just not what they wanted. And so then I said, Well, I will find someone who wants this.
01:10:32
Speaker
And I did. And actually, there were a few different publishers. But in one instance, it was Norton. There was an editor at Norton who desperately wanted the book. But because Norton is owned by its employees, they take votes. And I guess she couldn't get
01:10:48
Speaker
the amount of votes she needed to go forward with it. So that was nice because it was like even if the editor believed in it, it wasn't necessarily the right fit for that publishing house at that time. So if you can, in the listener, the you,
01:11:05
Speaker
If you're worried about rejection, just recognize that it's not that what you've created is bad or that you're bad, it's just that maybe you weren't exactly what they were looking for at that moment. But later down the road, they might love something you do. And so you have to recognize like, okay, maybe creating what you wanted to create is a satisfying pursuit in and of itself, and it may or may not get a publisher. But at least if you're having the conversations and you're getting the rejections,
01:11:33
Speaker
If you can get any feedback at all, it can be helpful to decide what your next move is going to be.
Political Pursuits and Personal Recommendations
01:11:39
Speaker
And you ran for Congress on like the most badass platform, bad science positive platform. And it didn't work out. And that was that's a different kind of rejection. And what did that experience what's the takeaway from that experience for you? You know, trying to change the dialogue around science and making sure that that's
01:12:02
Speaker
You know on the forefront of decision-making and even policy and you know not getting elected that that hurts But you know what was your takeaway with that kind of rejection?
01:12:14
Speaker
Well, it was pretty upsetting because I actually knew I was the best candidate in the race and the voters didn't think so as well. They did. It's just what I learned is that money is politics and I had more individual donors by thousands than anybody else in the race did. I won every debate or candidate forum and that was admitted by people who supported the other candidates.
01:12:42
Speaker
It literally boils down to, do you have the big money backing? And I wasn't willing to compromise my beliefs, my integrity, my desire to make evidence-based policy. And so even though, I mean, I had all this positive feedback from people, and I would leave these debates with the candidates, and people would come up to me and say, well, I'm voting for so-and-so, but you definitely did a better job. You definitely are the better candidate.
01:13:10
Speaker
And I'm like, well, then vote for me. Vote for the better candidate. Yep. But I learned that it really is. It's money. And so right now, I mean, like I was really glad I didn't have to compromise on anything about I mean, I compromised in terms of listening to voters and getting their input, but I didn't compromise who I was or what I stood for. And so I left with my integrity intact and I wasn't willing to lie, cheat and steal to win. And the people I ran against, some of them were.
01:13:37
Speaker
And that made a difference. And so I thought, OK, well, I'm still me out of this. And so again, they didn't reject me. They rejected my inability to play by the rules of the corrupt system that we have in place.
01:13:52
Speaker
And so it is, I mean, it's a huge thing when you're like, dang, you know, I didn't I didn't win and I gave it my all for 18 months of my life. I didn't do anything but this. But it was also like really worthwhile because I would have people come up to me and say,
01:14:08
Speaker
I care about politics like I'm a Star Trek fan and now I'm into politics because of you or you know like a kid who would say well I'm I'm LGBTQ and I'm into science and you showed me that I can do whatever I want that like who I am and what I like doesn't limit me it gives me ideas and I'm like yes so that that's
01:14:31
Speaker
what I take away from it. And of course, yeah, I get upset sometimes still when I hear about the foibles of what has gone on, especially with that seat, with the person who won and then left office for being abusive to their staff, in a variety of ways. And, and then also then it went back to Republicans. And so now I'm like, okay, if you all had elected me, it would be very different. But
01:14:56
Speaker
I wouldn't own a horse stable right now with my husband and wonderful business partners. We're almost through the process of fostering to adopt a teenager from the foster system who is fantastic. We have the coolest kid. And we wouldn't be doing that right now if I had won the seat in Congress. And I wouldn't have gotten to continue on with my nonprofit and reach more people who are interested in science like I have been doing.
01:15:24
Speaker
So yeah, I could have been helping out with policy quite a bit. And I could have hopefully been agitating for science, backing our policies. But I'm not upset at this point, because I love my life. I really am super fortunate. And I know that every single day. And
01:15:42
Speaker
So I hope that my run has inspired more scientists to engage politically because we do need science to carry us through the challenges of the 21st century. I mean, we've got overpopulation and food scarcity and climate migration and climate change itself, plus a pandemic now thrown in. And there are so many issues that we need science to help us understand an approach that we really just, I can't stress enough how important it is
01:16:12
Speaker
for people who, if you're not a scientist, if you're a writer, or you're someone who knows how to do research, get involved in public policy, run for school board, run for city council, sign people up to vote, knock on doors, but don't let that be the province of other people. You have to engage if
01:16:34
Speaker
You want the world to be a place where you're excited to live and where you believe that people have the fullest opportunities possible. And now you're a geologist, a volcanologist, an athletic person. If they put you on a spaceship to the moon to study geology and all volcanoes on the moon, are you going?
01:17:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, I would rather go to Venus. I much rather go to Venus because Venus is volcanic. Like we already know that and it's active, we suspect. So I'm like, send me to the most hellish place in the solar system. Yes, please.
01:17:16
Speaker
But I would do the moon if they were like, yep, we need you here or Mars because I mean, the largest volcano in the solar system in the known universe is Olympus Mons on Mars. For perspective, it is the size of the state of Missouri. So
01:17:31
Speaker
It is enormous. When you stand at the base of it, you can't even begin to see the fullness of it because it's so big. It's like just try to imagine seeing all the way across the state of Missouri. You can't. So yeah, I'd be happy to go to any of those places, even though I'm not a huge fan of the idea of going to space just to go to space. Like if somebody says, oh, Jeff Bezos has a seat for you on his next rocket ship, I'd be like, nah, I'm good. But if I'm going somewhere to
01:18:00
Speaker
collect data to gain an understanding. And then it's my job to bring back that understanding and share it with people because they won't have the chance to go there by all means. Yes, let's go. Let's go tomorrow. Well, that's amazing. Well, Jess, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations to a close, I always like to ask a guest for a recommendation of any kind. So I'd extend that question to you. So for the listeners out there, that what you might recommend to the listener.
01:18:28
Speaker
Okay, so I would recommend that who there's like six things that I want to talk about. But instead, I'll just say, if you are not terrified of all animals, go pet an animal today, you know, or engage
01:18:43
Speaker
with an animal. If you like to watch birds, go watch birds. If you're stuck at home and you can't go anywhere, go watch a video online of either a silly cat video or a video of whales or a video of sharks. Go look at something that isn't
01:19:00
Speaker
our human world that we have wrapped ourselves up in knots over. And pick something in nature, pick something living. Even if you don't like animals, maybe go look at plants. But engage with something that's a little bit different than what you do every day. And just look at things from its perspective for a while. Because I'm telling you, when you see a dog or a cat asleep in a sunbeam, it's like, OK.
01:19:26
Speaker
they're enjoying this. This is good. And it'll give you a little bit of peace too. So go engage with something natural, however you can, and use that to get you through the week. Because we all know, these days in 2020, every week is its own adventure. Not always great.
01:19:46
Speaker
Well, Phantas, well, Jess, what a pleasure to speak to you and get to have this conversation with you. I loved your book. I can't recommend it enough as a beacon for science, but also for storytelling about some of the coolest things this planet has to offer with your volcanoes. So thank you so much for the work you do and for coming on the show.
01:20:06
Speaker
Thank you, Brendan. It's been an absolute blast. And I say that because I have to get at least one volcano pun in every time I talk to people.
01:20:22
Speaker
Well how about that? You dig that shit? Hey, consider leaving a nice review on Apple Podcast. Like I said at the start of the show, of the 107 ratings we have, there's like 62 that are written. That's crazy. So let's keep that up.
01:20:40
Speaker
It'd be great, because for the wayward CNFer who's just like looking for podcasts about nonfiction writing and creative nonfiction, if they see that amount of ratings and specifically those written reviews, they'll be like, all right, I'm going to give this enterprise a little, I'm going to give them a chance.
01:21:01
Speaker
Hell, you guys did, and look at you. Thanks to Jess Phoenix. What an amazing spirit in mind, man. Also, thanks to West Virginia Wesleyan College's low residency MFA in creative writing for the support. And be sure to head over to thefacingprojectpress.submitable.com to submit some work to the Empathy Prize.
01:21:25
Speaker
Speaking of submitting work, the deadline for the third issue of the audio magazine is November 1st on the theme Heroes 2000 Words Max. Go to BrendanOmero.com for submission guidelines. Check it out. And I don't know if you'd notice, but I've begun for quite some time now to steer these conversations away from advice, if that makes any sense.
01:21:50
Speaker
Did I talk about this already? I feel like I might have. I don't know, maybe not. Did I end the Hippo Camp talk? Shit, I can't remember. Anyway, I'm gonna read two quotes from my hero, Henry Rollins. Here's the first one. It's important if you're a creative person or aspire to be that you don't spend too much time aspiring or asking advice. Just get going and address what's roaring inside you. So that's one. Two.
01:22:19
Speaker
I don't ask advice of people. I just go make a mistake and limp away. I love that. So this got me thinking like you don't need more advice. You need to make more mistakes. I guess that's sort of advice. But what I'm getting at is how much I loathe how people are constantly looking for shortcuts.
01:22:43
Speaker
asking successful people for advice but all they can do is relay what's worked for them and maybe they work from a set of privilege that can't be replicated or a stroke of luck that can't be replicated. I think of all the goons who ask people like I don't know Tim Ferriss questions or Cal Newport.
Critique of Podcasting and Advice Culture
01:23:03
Speaker
I find it gross. I think I find it gross because I kind of sort of used to be that person looking for answers instead of having the courage to make the mistakes instead of thinking that maybe asking for advice is some way to grease the skids in a way to find an avenue on easy street. Now, there are ways to conduct interviews that can be inspiring without being prescriptive.
01:23:30
Speaker
Like it doesn't matter what so-and-so's morning routine is. All that matters is that you have one.
01:23:38
Speaker
It doesn't matter what pencil you use, all that matters is that you have something that fits nicely in your hand. I can tell you what one I prefer, but what difference does that make? Fuck around with a bunch. You can ask people how they deal with negative self-talk, but you're an idiot if you ask that person what advice you have for someone who has negative inner voice.
01:24:01
Speaker
Better to ask them directly how they cope because perhaps you can relate to how they do it. And I guarantee the answer won't come off like it's some derivative platitude delivered in the second person. I won't apologize for the myriad times I've asked questions that are far too prescriptive. Those kind of questions I feel are lazy and I hope I'm doing a better job of engaging the guest and what it means to be a creative person and what it means to do this kind of work and why it matters and so on.
01:24:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool to ask someone what music they listen to, but better yet, why he listens to Master of Puppets. But to frame the question in such a way to suggest that listening to music is the skeleton key to break down the beaver dam plugging up your river is wrong and lazy. Okay.
01:24:53
Speaker
I'm gonna keep going on this shit because this shit really boils my potato. Someone phoned into Cal Newport's Deep Questions podcast asking Cal what his fucking office looked like and what computer he uses and shit. I'm like, who gives a fuck?
01:25:11
Speaker
How is this interesting? What does it even matter? Why does it matter? It doesn't. Are you going to carbon copy Cal Newport's office thinking it'll unlock something inside you? What do you gain from that? First, I was mad that this person phoned that question in. Then I was mad at Cal for selecting that question out of the dozens he receives, if not hundreds he receives.
01:25:35
Speaker
Then I deleted that damn podcast and stopped listening because my efforts were better put elsewhere into making mistakes. I've gotten some value from that podcast in the past and sometimes here and there I will catch something that I find applicable. But 50% of the questions are of that nature of people looking for the key when they should be flopping around like a fish out of water until they flop their way right into a lake or die trying. Shit.
01:26:05
Speaker
Now that was a parting shot. God damn it. Stay wild singing efforts and remember, if you can do interviews, see ya.