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The Truth Of The Matter is- Episode: 156 Special Guest - Ben Hall
42 Plays1 year ago
"The Truth Of The Matter Is" Podcast is all about providing an honest, contextual, historize, political, psychological, and philosophical view of the Bible through the use of Hermeneutics, while sharing some personal experiences from Brothers Johnathan, Daniel, and on occasion our special guest. In faith we believe our listener's will leave with an open perspective, desiring biblical truth, and practically applying God's WORD to everyday life. This week we had Pastor Ben Hall. Ben Hall has ministered the Gospel in North Alabama, Atlanta Georgia since 2018. Pastor Ben is now in Brooklyn with the Prospect Park Church. You can find more of Pastor Ben's teaching at thewaybk.com or on YouTube @thewaybk. I hope you find this conversation to be a blessing because I did.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Truth of the Matter is'
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to a special edition of the Truth of the Matter is podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan, and I'm here with our special guests. But before we introduce and welcome him inappropriately, let's begin by recognizing and appreciating all our new and consistent listeners.
00:00:21
Speaker
We thank you all in advance for continuing to press play at your own convenience.
Podcast's Approach and Guest Introduction
00:00:25
Speaker
Now, if this is your first time listening to the Truth of the Matters podcast, we want you to know that it's all about providing an honest, contextualized, hysterized, philosophical, and psychological view of the Bible through the use of hermeneutics while sharing some personal experiences with myself, Daniel, and on occasion, our special guests. We believe in sharing practical ways of applying God's Word to everyday life. Today, we will praise God for another new testimony we will hear.
Pastor Ben's Recent Blessings
00:00:51
Speaker
We hope after hearing this man of God, that you will see how to encounter with Christ with guarantee that your life will not be the same. Now, without further ado, let's welcoming our guests. Pastor Ben, how are you doing this morning? I'm all right about you, Jonathan. Thanks for having me with you. I'm doing well. So here on the Truth of the Mads podcast, to sort of break the ice, we normally ask, so what is one or two ways you feel like the Lord has blessed you in this past week?
00:01:16
Speaker
You know what, this past weekend, actually, I was able to go upstate. I'd gotten invited to some Bible studies that were mostly with preachers.
00:01:25
Speaker
The speakers were, I mean, I'm just gonna say they were old men and they said it that way. You know what I mean? Some people talk about old as a bad word, but of course in the kingdom of God, we know that's not true that the aged are those who when they're aged in the Lord, they got a lot of wisdom. So it was awesome. I was really, really privileged with that couple of days, being able to listen to some really good teaching, some important exhortations, got to connect with some friends and make some new friends. So that's a big one that's on my mind right now the past few days.
Role of Character and Spiritual Discipline in Ministry
00:01:55
Speaker
Okay, so before we dive in here, we believe in prayers, so we'll do that first and foremost, and then we'll kind of just have a free conversation about life, about what are some of the things you do, how you impact in the kingdom, and we'll see and hope that it's beneficial to our audience. Heavenly Father, Lord, in the Jesus name, we thank you so much for this opportunity that you've given us to have a conversation with Pastor Ben. We hope what he has to share can be uplifting and encouraging to all those who are listening.
00:02:22
Speaker
Lord, you said anytime two or three are gathered, there you are in the mist, Lord. So we appreciate and thank you for giving us this divine time for us to discuss your word and other things that are happening in the world and how it can impact us as we desire to live the Christian difference. Lord, I pray that through this conversation, you will be uplifted in the most highest ways possible. I pray also that through this conversation that people who are on the fence of deciding whether or not they should, you know,
00:02:50
Speaker
Place their faith in you or not. We'll see the benefits and also see what it's like to see two men of God who have relationship with you. Lord, we know that you told us in the gospel of John that the most important thing about our relationship with you is that we should be open. We should be honest. We should be forthcoming. But more importantly, you told us in your word that anything that we ask, if it's according to your will, you would do. So we hope that this conversation brings about your will.
00:03:20
Speaker
your will to share the gospel, your will to lift you up, your will to provide honest and contextual understanding of how we are practically applying God's Word everyday life while also maneuvering and being able to look through life through a window that is guided by you. So Lord, we say these things with surety and honesty. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.
00:03:49
Speaker
So Pastor Ben, I want to start here. What are some things you can share for those who are unfamiliar with what it's like to prepare a message and to deliver it on a Sunday or through a Bible study, anything you can provide and share some insight into what goes into your preparation?
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know how much this would be, you know, misunderstood or not known, but I'll just kind of share it and maybe stuff like, yeah, yeah, we know. But if so, then that's good. Maybe we're on the right track with this. So the first thing to me is back it way up to your general character and your general way of life. In other words, if it's going to be something that's going to really edify God's people,
00:04:40
Speaker
It can't be something that I start doing on Monday, getting ready for Sunday, you know what I mean? In that case, I'm just preparing a speech, right? I'm not preparing a real message of the gospel. I'm thinking about places like 1 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 2, where there's a lot of attention given to your character, your godliness, your perseverance in faith, your purification from sin.
Teaching Responsibility and Preaching Motives
00:05:06
Speaker
If I'm not living a godly life, then
00:05:09
Speaker
I mean, that's the real preparation, is that I would be, I think the way it's worded in 2 Timothy 2 around verse 22 is that I'm preparing to be a vessel for honor and not for dishonor. So that's number one. Related to that, in 1 Timothy 4, Paul tells Timothy to give attention to the reading, and that may be about public reading in the assembly, but it certainly applies to just generally as a servant of the Word. If you're not dedicating yourself to the reading of the Word,
00:05:40
Speaker
all the time, then you're not really going to have much. It's like that full cup, empty cup analogy. If you're empty, you're not going to be able to pour anything out into anybody else. Of course, the same goes for prayer. The same goes for being a servant. So there's these spiritual disciplines that if I'm not engaging in regularly, then I'm not going to be spiritually healthy and have any spiritual depth such that I'd be able to share anything worth sharing. You know what I mean?
00:06:08
Speaker
That's not really about like the preparing of the actual content of a lesson, but you back it on up. That's the real preparation. I mean, I could say some things in a minute here about the actual process of, okay, I'm going from a blank sheet of paper to I'm standing before the congregation sharing something from the Word of God. But I think those preparations probably get overlooked a lot. The preparation of humility, the preparation of diligence, the preparation of being a servant, of being dedicated to the Word of God, of being dedicated to prayer.
00:06:33
Speaker
I'm thinking about Ezra in Ezra chapter 7 and verse 10. It's a great passage for people who are trying to serve others with the Word. Ezra 7 10 says that Ezra had committed himself to study the Word of God, that he would know it, that he would do it, and that he would teach it to others. And that's a great way of thinking about it. You got to know God's will, you got to do God's will before you ever open your mouth, or if you're going to effectively open your mouth to tell people about God's will. Okay.
00:07:02
Speaker
Yeah, I would second that as well. I think the most important thing is you want your heart to be prepared for
00:07:10
Speaker
and open to what God could reveal to you throughout the week. And I'm a proponent of the inclusion of different translations. And I know there are some that are King James only, but to me as a student, I feel that when you're trying to disseminate a message to the masses, it's important that you take a hard look at how there are some translations that could benefit in a way that it is written that people will be able to receive.
00:07:35
Speaker
Right and there are just some portions of scripture Specifically in the King James Version where if you're looking at the Old English there are some that would be Completely mistaken by what is said in the Old English and completely misinterpreted So I think doing your due diligence and making sure that the way is expressed it's also relatable not obviously to one that
00:07:58
Speaker
the relatability to one's understanding where it's like, this is convenient for me, but that it should be convenient in some way for all to understand, right? And I think most importantly, one of the things that you spoke about is just the understanding of the word, right? Doing your
Discouragement and Truth in Ministry
00:08:16
Speaker
due diligence, your homelands and making sure that what you want to say is rooted out of scripture and it's not rooted out of personal
00:08:24
Speaker
emphasis as in misunderstanding the interpretation of the scriptures, more importantly mishandling interpretation of the scriptures, right?
00:08:33
Speaker
So there's a passage in the book of James that expresses that we shouldn't be eager to be teachers because we would be judged more harshly. Can you speak a little bit about to that, that when you read scriptures like that, what kind of notice does it place on your heart and what kind of emphasis does it place on your intentions as you go about what you want to share? Well, you go, it's a great passage and it's an important question, an important issue.
00:09:03
Speaker
That passage there in James 3 goes on to talk at length about the power of our words. Mostly the power of our words for evil, honestly. That's the main emphasis in that passage. The implication would be our words can also do good, and we know that. That's obvious through the rest of Scripture.
00:09:18
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I think it is a danger to sort of have a, Hey, I want to be somebody. I want to be important. I like being able to boss people around or tell people what to do, which of course is a very mixed up view of what it means to preach and teach the gospel. But people can, can think of it that way. And he's gonna say, watch out, because if you take on that role and responsibility, um, then you will incur a stricter judgment because after all you're claiming to speak for God.
00:09:47
Speaker
And if you're going to speak for God, you better know what you're talking about. It's back to your point about studying the scripture as well, even thinking about how to communicate the scriptures. I mean, your comments on translations, I think is very on point with that. So, yeah, I mean, obviously we know in other parts of scripture, I'm looking at 1 Timothy 4, I'm looking at 2 Timothy 2 again, I'm looking at
00:10:10
Speaker
Titus 1. Let's see what else am I thinking about. I'm thinking about Ephesians 4. There's a number of scriptures that highlight the idea that it's good and necessary, frankly, for God's people to have teachers among them. So I know there's a sense in which it's a good thing for someone
00:10:27
Speaker
those who have the character that qualifies them as such. I don't mean talent or skill, but character, kind of the things we spoke about a minute ago. People who are qualified to be teachers, we need that in the kingdom of God. We need that in local churches.
00:10:41
Speaker
But if I'm over eager for that, if I'm over eager for it, that may be a danger sign and really may be an indicator that I shouldn't be pursuing that because I may be just looking for people to listen to me or to have some position of what I perceive to be power or something like that, as opposed to what teaching the Word of God and preaching the gospel really should be, which is an act of service.
00:11:05
Speaker
an act of selflessness, an act of trying to exalt the Lord and build up others because you love God and you love your neighbor as yourself. So yeah, it's definitely a danger. And by the way, I think that goes back to some of those things we said at the beginning. It's about that diligence. I mean, I'm back to just the study of the Word. I'm sure we all have sat through sermons that if we were being discerning in the moment, we thought, man, he's been talking a lot.
00:11:31
Speaker
But he's not referencing Scripture very much. Or he's talking about Scripture, but I'm reading it. I mean, he quoted it and made a point off of it, but I'm reading it and it sure doesn't look like that's actually what it says. He just kind of took that quote and kind of twisted it up.
00:11:44
Speaker
And sometimes that's intentional, of course. Sometimes people do that and purposely, we know that even 2 Peter 1 and 2, actually really the whole book of 2 Peter makes that clear. So even in the times of when the scripture being written, that was the case. But certainly there's people that for their own gain, they just twist things up. Sometimes though, there's people who I think are well-meaning and are really trying their best to some extent, or want to do their best, misuse the scriptures, mishandle the scriptures and lead people astray.
00:12:14
Speaker
Well, I don't think, I don't think it's going to fly with the Lord. If I say, Oh Lord, my bad. I didn't, I didn't really know. He's like, yeah, that's why I told you, watch out for this. Don't mess around with this. And by the way, if you're going to do it, you give all diligence to make sure that the stuff you're saying is true and accurate and faithful to my will so that you don't leave my people astray. So it's a really serious thing.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, so we live in a digital era now where people are creating podcasts as people creating YouTube channels with the desire to preach the word of God in some capacity. And the first thing that comes to my mind is just a passage I believe in Philippines chapter one verse 15 and says, if I read it to you, just want to get some of your thoughts. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy, rivalry, others out of goodwill.
00:13:02
Speaker
The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me, why I am in chains in verse 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this,
00:13:25
Speaker
I rejoice. So when you look over the landscape of those who have a desire to share the word of God, whether it's with good motives or false motives, whether it's to gain fame, to get attraction to the degree where people can almost live off of what they're able to produce on YouTube. And we look at their lives and we see that as not reflected of what it is that they do, right? I believe in the passage, it says that we should live our life worthy of our calling.
00:13:53
Speaker
What would you say to those people who desire to share the gospel, but their audience isn't as loud? You know, they're sharing the truth, but their audience isn't as large. And they want to get the message out, but unfortunately, it seems as though the more that they share what is true, it seems that their audience diminishes, it gets smaller.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think about the passage in Jeremiah where just the whole book itself, we know that he goes on preaching the gospel and in the end, we know that no one repents. We know that throughout all his life, he proclaimed doing what is right for God and the result was no one repented. What kind of encouraging words would you provide to those who desire to share the truth?
00:14:37
Speaker
don't really see much in regards of the benefits to being able to rejoice or the change of the individual or the people that you speak with, but yet being on fire and earnest for God and seeing some of these things transfire before your eyes. What are your thoughts on that?
00:14:54
Speaker
Man, I mean, that's a super real one. And whether it's, you know, macro numbers, like especially measurables that you got on social or on YouTube or Instagram or whatever, you know, you might be discouraged looking at, oh, we're not getting the reach like these people over here, stuff like that. Also can be more just in your own circle. You know, you're like, I can't talk to my friends and nobody's responding or, you know, our congregation is not growing like I wish it would or whatever. The first thing that I try to remind myself of is Jesus said, it's gonna be this way.
00:15:22
Speaker
Matthew 7, 13 and 14. The Broadway where so many people are walking.
00:15:29
Speaker
And that's in the context of religion, by the way. The next paragraph is talking about people who are preachers, false prophets and such. So, the Broadway leads to destruction and there are many who go into that path. Meanwhile, the way is narrow and difficult at least to eternal life and there are few who find
Unity and Truth in Christian Doctrine
00:15:45
Speaker
it. So, I mean, Jesus told us, hey, this is how it's going to be. There's only a few people who are going to accept it. And then in Jesus' own ministry, I mean, you mentioned, I mean, great one, Jeremiah, you could go to Isaiah, you could go to so many of the prophets. But Jesus himself, John chapter 6,
00:15:59
Speaker
He preaches that kind of strange sermon about eat my flesh and drink my blood. And the people said there's a hard saying or there's a difficult thing to, I think, I don't think the point was that they had a hard time understanding it as much as they did accepting what he was saying. And it said that they all left him. And he looks to the 12 and he actually kind of gives them, he's like, well, you don't want to go away. Do you guys want to go too?
00:16:23
Speaker
And I like Peter's response, because Peter's response is kind of like, well, we kind of did the math. We just don't know where else we can go. But here's my like about that. And I think it's important for us in our own loyalties, as well as in our service that we're trying to render to God. Peter said there in John 6, you know, we've come to know that you are the Holy One of God, and you have the words of eternal life. The point in that is,
00:16:51
Speaker
I'm not going to be able to dictate or control people's responses and how much they respond and how well they respond, how long they respond well, all that kind of stuff. The Spirit says that we're to preach the Word when it's in season, meaning there's fruit, it's working, there's people coming and out of season. It's being rejected. People don't want to hear it, you know.
00:17:15
Speaker
The trick is, preach the word. Hold to the words of life that Jesus has spoken.
00:17:23
Speaker
So, I mean, I will say, I think sometimes we can kind of beat our chest, be like, yeah, you know, like, nobody's listening because I'm really telling the truth. And it may be like, well, maybe, or maybe I'm a jerk, or maybe I'm not telling the truth, or maybe I got a hobby horse that I just talk about this one issue, and I'm not talking about the whole counsel of God. There may actually be lots of reasons why people aren't responding to what I'm trying to teach and preach, right? So, I need to be humble about that, but also not be too disturbed. If people aren't listening,
00:17:52
Speaker
It may be just because that's what the Lord said. There's lots of people who aren't going to listen to the truth. The test is not, are a bunch of people listening or are a bunch of people not listening? Because like I said, I think you can get a sense of pride of, oh, look, I got XYZ followers or people in my church. Or I could be, oh, look, nobody's listening to us. That proves that we're right. No, the thing that's right is what's in the Word of God. And I actually really like that passage you referenced in Philippians.
00:18:16
Speaker
I think what it's all about is not to take it personal or not to evaluate it on a personal level. The guy who has tons of followers and tons of people listening to him, he's thinking, hey, look, I'm being successful. I know how to bring people in. They're all listening to me. But also maybe the guy who's speaking in such a way that's turning people away, he can be like, look, I'm really being faithful. It's like, no, man, you're not really teaching anything. You're just hitting on this one issue or whatever. There in Philippians 1 Paul says, hey, it's not really about me.
00:18:44
Speaker
There's always people who are envious of me. They're doing it for bad motives, some sincerely, but whatever, as long as Christ is proclaimed. And the reason I think it's important to underscore that we're not trying to evaluate it on our own personal benefit or personal loss is when you go over to Philippians 3, same book. Yeah. He actually speaks about, I think some of those people he refers to in chapter one,
00:19:07
Speaker
And in verse two, he says to them, beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision, for we are the true circumcision who worship in the Spirit of God and take pride in Jesus Christ and put no confidence in flesh. So it's funny in chapter one, you'd almost get the sense that Paul's saying, ah, it's fine if people are whatever.
00:19:26
Speaker
Well, in chapter three, he's actually warning them. Watch out. Don't mess around with them. If you go down to the end of chapter three in verse 17, brothers join in following my example and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
00:19:38
Speaker
For many walk of whom I often told you and now tell you, even as I weep, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose God is their appetite, whose glory is their shame, who have their minds on earthly things." So there again, he's warning about these false teachers. Okay, which is it, Paul? Are you not stressed out about it? Because that's what chapter one sounds like. You're like, ah, there's these guys. I'm not worried about it. But in chapter three, it sounds like you are concerned about it. So which is it?
00:20:00
Speaker
And I think Paul's answer would be, just from reading the full revelation of God's will that we got in Paul's writings and the rest of the New Testament, I think Paul's answer would be, look, I'm not personally concerned about what this means for me. If people reject me or people preach out of me, okay, whatever about me, what I am concerned about is the truth. What I am concerned about is what God has actually said. And so whether it's me or somebody else, as long as the true gospel is being proclaimed, great. If it's not the true gospel,
00:20:27
Speaker
then I don't want anybody listening to it. I don't want anybody listening to it. And I think that's the way we need to evaluate it. What are the true words of life? What is the actual word of God? What is the true gospel? I need to preach that and do my best. And if a bunch of people listen, awesome. If nobody listens, okay, either way, Christ is proclaimed. That's what I'm going for here.
00:20:47
Speaker
Yes, I agree with you. I think a lot of what you said is spot on. Which kind of brings me, so let's dive a little bit deeper. I believe it's the passes of first Corinthians where there's quarreling going among the brothers. And we see this quite often in the different denominations as part of the body of Christ, right? And I understand that there's a distinction where people want to be edified and recognized for something specifically they believe that God has called them to do. And that's why we get the
00:21:16
Speaker
the non-denominationals, we get the specific churches that are the emphasis prayer. I just want to read this for context for those who are listening. It says, my brothers and sisters, some for Chloe's household have informed me that they are quarreling among you. What I mean is this, one says I follow Paul, another I follow Apollos, another I follow Cephas, still another I follow Christ.
00:21:42
Speaker
And he goes in the same verse 13, is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God I did not baptize any of you except Cephas and Gaius. So no one says that you were baptized in my name. Yes, I...
00:21:58
Speaker
Yes, I also baptize the house of Stephanus, but on that I don't remember if I baptize anyone else. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with the wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of his power." So what are your thoughts of just getting to know just congregants and understanding how some may flock to your church with
00:22:21
Speaker
different, I would say dogmas and different ways and how they've received the word of God. And if you don't mind, what would you say in your church congregation is the overall message is a particular word that I'm looking for the theology of your house. If you were to sum it up, what would you say it would be? Two good questions. Yeah.
00:22:49
Speaker
I mean, one, I just think on big picture on this, I'm mindful of Jesus' prayer in John 17 before he went to the cross. And in that, you kind of see Jesus unloading some of the things that were most important and valuable to him, right? And in that prayer, a significant portion of it at the end is about the love
00:23:15
Speaker
the harmony, the oneness of His people. That's what He's really going to die for. Ephesians 2, any number has to speak to this. This is what Christ is dying for, is that He would liberate us from sin and death and bring us together as one body. All right. Well, kind of at the beginning of that discussion, He says in chapter 17 of John, John 17 verse 17, sanctify them in the truth. Your Word is truth.
00:23:43
Speaker
So why is it that we have, why is it that the Corinthians had these different sex or we might say denomination, at least proto denominations may not be full fledged, but they were kind of developing that mentality. Why is it that we have that today? Well, the reason why we have that today is because there are a lot of other things that dictate the mentality of a lot of people who are trying to follow Jesus. There's
00:24:11
Speaker
history, right, historical trends, where churches developed. There's allegiance to people, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm not real interested in trying to enumerate this at this point, just not to, I don't think it's necessary, but you can go through a lot of denominations, they're named after people, or they were essentially established by a person, right? Yeah.
00:24:35
Speaker
we've got creeds, which have some value, you read the historical creeds, you're like, that sounds pretty good. That's a pretty good description of the Christian faith. But sometimes not so much or sometimes it's like, well, that's a pretty specific way. And there's a couple of ways the Bible talks about that. It's not super clear. But people know you have to kind of adhere to this and agree to this. And even though probably in our day and age, some of that stuff has softened up.
00:24:59
Speaker
these little tribal allegiances still exist based on those sorts of things, right? So either historical trends, people, men, or creeds, in other words, man-made ideologies and kind of outlines of theology, which again, get pretty close, but not exactly correct. Here Jesus says, okay, what would set us apart from all that essentially man-made worldly approach to religion?
00:25:27
Speaker
the truth, your word is truth. So I don't know that I can, I don't know that, yeah, I guess if I had to sum up what I know we try to do, and I hope more and more people are, and I think a lot of people are, is to really just go back to the word of God alone.
Balancing Biblical Understanding with Simplicity
00:25:46
Speaker
So okay, whatever practices we're gonna do, can we find it in the teaching of Jesus through his apostles? Anything that we're gonna insist on,
00:25:57
Speaker
Is it something that God actually insists on? Any ideas we have about how to practice ministry? Are they really, let's really evaluate them. Can you actually give me a book chapter verse for this one, you know, and not some sort of, let's stretch it out and kind of make it fit or work or whatever. Or are you saying, well, in my church growing up, or well, my grandma always, or my dad always, or my, all my friends say, or I went to this church one time and that's all fine. Yeah.
00:26:24
Speaker
But who cares? That's not how we're going to be sanctified. That's not the truth. My view on something or my practice isn't right, even if I'm sincerely trying to do what's right in God's eyes. The only way I can really evaluate what God's actual will is that will be for my good is in His word. And that's really the only way we're going to come to true unity. I mean, you mentioned kind of over the past couple of decades, I guess what someone probably called a non-denominational era of, if we can say it this way, Christendom, right?
00:26:53
Speaker
many people at least, denominational allegiances aren't as important as maybe they once were. They still are for some and in some places, but anyway, not in general. Here's, I like that, by the way. I like that it's like, hey, let's just come together. That's great. Here's the one trick though. Hey, sometimes those non-denominational groups
00:27:11
Speaker
It's like, well, it's non-denominational, but actually it's pretty much just, you know, whatever denomination kind of started it or wherever the pastor came from. That's pretty much the theology. But the other, and just as concerning or maybe more concerning, sometimes the non-denominational thing is, hey, let's just ignore all of our differences. Let's just come together in this place and let's not actually talk about anything. Let's not work out any of our doctrinal differences or beliefs about whatever the case may be. And we're just all going to kind of, you know, get in a big circle and be okay with each other.
00:27:43
Speaker
That's not really being sanctified in the truth. That's not even really agreeing to disagree. It's kind of just saying, I'm just going to close my eyes and shut my ears from any kind of differences between what I believe or what you believe and what God says. If we're going to ever be united as God wants, we've got to meet each other head on. And I don't mean trying to be contentious, but we are each one of us contending for the faith.
00:28:10
Speaker
And so, when you and I disagree on something, I mean, this passage in 1 Corinthians references baptism. There's so many views on baptism, infant baptism, baptism as an outward sign of salvation that's already occurred. I mean, you could just go on and on. Baptism into the church as an institution, that sort of thing. There's so many different views we could keep going on this. Baptism of the Holy Spirit, right? Is that, yeah. Yeah, right, right. How does baptism and water and baptism of the Holy Spirit, how do those factor into each other? Right, we could keep on going.
00:28:40
Speaker
Well, so you have a view on that, I have a view on that. I'm not saying you and I, but I'm saying hypothetically right. You would be exactly in one accord on this, but you have a view on that, I have a view on that, and they differ. Well, either you are correct and I'm incorrect, or I'm correct and you are incorrect.
00:28:58
Speaker
Or we are both incorrect. And there's a truth that God has revealed. And so I think it's important that we've got to meet each other head on and really try to wrestle with doctrinal disagreements and so forth, where we're going to attain the unity that God desires in His Spirit.
00:29:15
Speaker
we got to go for it. We can't be holding back and be like, Oh, well, okay, it's no big deal. No, we got to go for it. Because what we're really trying to do is get on the same page with God. It's not that I'm right, you're wrong, or you're right, I'm wrong. And like, who's gonna win in this battle of, you know, theology, that's not it. God is right. We know he's right. And we know on all the things that matter, he's told us about it in his word. Yeah. So what we got to do is try to help each other fight
00:29:38
Speaker
the devil's lies to find what's actually true. In this case, for instance, let's just go back to the first time people were baptized. Acts chapter two, after Jesus was raised up. Let's go. Acts chapter two, verse 38. What does it say about baptism? Let's go to Romans six. Let's see what it has to say about baptism. And yeah, your church tradition and this creed and this famous theologian and my grandma and my personal experience and all these different things. Let's set all that to the side.
00:30:03
Speaker
let's just go to what the scriptures teach and then let's let's try to do that because we know God's right and we got to try to get on the same page with God.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think you make some good points. So to kind of like build on that, so this is kind of like a two-part question that I wanted to ask. So in this day and age now, there seems to be, and there was an argument back then between some of the old traditions with Martin Luther King where you have those that went to Bible school and those who proclaimed that they've been informed and educated through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and studying the scriptures separately.
00:30:41
Speaker
And we know that Paul in itself was a brilliant man, right? We know in one passage he was a tent maker, but we also know that he spoke two languages. And there's even questions about whether or not God gave him gifts to speak in multiple languages that then elevated his ability to speak
00:30:58
Speaker
to multiple different people in different languages to proclaim the gospel as he went out sharing the gospel. But there's a passage where he says something very interesting. First Corinthians chapter 2, he said,
00:31:16
Speaker
the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and in fear and with much trembling." When you think about people's ability to share the gospel message, whether it comes from an educational perspective or where it comes from a very basic hermeneutical perspective,
00:31:37
Speaker
As you've learned to sort of fashion and shape the way you would want to express the message of God, what are some of the pros and cons that you've come to realize that mattered and what didn't matter? Because, you know, we get into this whole thing about the Greek, the Hebrew, the Aramaic, right? The translations of how
00:31:56
Speaker
Does it really necessarily interfere with you getting the message of the gospel, right? And this other inclusion of the deeper meanings of certain terms, I always felt that those surface ways of reading the scriptures worked enough so that you can receive Christ into your life and live a life worthy of calling and live the Christian difference. Like how have you learned to balance going deep and then allowing the scripture to speak for itself without having to go that far?
00:32:26
Speaker
Man, that's a great question. I hope I'm always learning more about that and trying to improve on that because I think what you're bringing out is pretty easy trap to fall into, you know. So I think what I would say is, what do I
Pastor Ben's Ministry Journey and Community Influence
00:32:40
Speaker
mean? What kind of deep am I shooting for? What kind of deep, you know? So like this passage of First Corinthians 2, which I love, you're really speaking my language with this one. I just want to come back too often.
00:32:53
Speaker
if deep for me is let me get real intellectual, like you said, we get into all the languages and look every once in a while, that can be useful to be like, hey, just heads up. You know, I know we might think this word means this, but just in the original context, it would mean that. Okay, fine. That's cool. But if that's kind of my primary mode of depth in my own personal Bible study or in, um, in what I impart to others,
00:33:19
Speaker
Right here, Paul, who's as deep as they come, as you alluded to, he says, hey, I actually kind of put that on mute. Like I turned that, that stereo, I turned that one down because I didn't want that to really be what people heard about. I want people to hear about the gospel of Christ. The kind of depth we should be striving for both once again in our own understanding of the gospel and as we impart it to others is a depth of heart. That I really get into what's really going on in my heart. And when I'm speaking to others, what's going on in your heart,
00:33:49
Speaker
between you and the Lord. That's the kind of death that God's really going for. We're talking about spiritual death. We're talking about soul-spirit death of our devotion, our love, our care for the Lord. And so I do think it's an easy trap. It looks really cool, I guess. It may seem to sound cool to know. And I guess it's kind of the, I know stuff you don't know. Yeah. And that temptation, Paul actually refers to that in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. He says,
00:34:16
Speaker
We all have knowledge, but actually knowledge can just make you arrogant. Meanwhile, love is what builds people up. So I think that's the thing I've got to avoid that trap of thinking that more information or information that other people don't have, that somehow makes me superior or more effective or whatever. Here Paul says, no.
00:34:39
Speaker
I just wanted to know Jesus and him crucified and make him known to you. And I didn't talk in a fancy way. I didn't try to speak like those other Greek philosophers. I was just a guy telling you about the Lord and that should be what we're striving for.
00:34:53
Speaker
Yeah, because I even speak for myself part of my testimony was that actually, I felt like Christ met me in my study of philosophy and it was through it that I began to search for wisdom and I and I always, you know, quote the past as prophets chapter nine.
00:35:11
Speaker
Verse 10, it says the beginning of wisdom, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom or knowledge is the foundation of it. And for me, part of where I feel like God has met me is He's made things interesting to me in that context.
00:35:26
Speaker
So in other words, when I start to want to search wisdom, I understand in that same passage, Corinthians, I mean, I remember Corinthians was my favorite book because some of the things he would he would he would quote, right? And he said when he talks about, you know, the deep things of God is rooted within
00:35:46
Speaker
Those that are have the have the spirit that I have the Holy Spirit right and he he talks about I'm trying to remember the passes what he says that Let me just bring it up, but I believe it's I believe his first Corinthians chapter maybe two or three Where he says oh, I think I got a quote in my mind He says that some people well, let me just bring it up. I don't want to get arrogant, right? We're talking about arrogance. I think it's first Corinthians chapter 2
00:36:21
Speaker
Okay, so it starts at verse six. He says, for we do however speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or the rule of this age who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God's wisdom a mystery that has been hidden, and that God's destined for our glory for time began. None of the rules of this age understood it, for that they had, they will have not crucified the law of glory. However, it was written, for what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, what no human mind has conceived, the things God has prepared for those who love him,
00:36:51
Speaker
These are the things God has revealed to us by his spirit. The spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows, a person starts to set their own spirit within them. In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, explaining spiritual realities,
00:37:18
Speaker
with spiritual words, which sort of brings to me the conversation that Jesus has with Nicodemus and trying to explain to him worldly things in comparison to how you can understand spiritual things. And it was through my humbleness and accepting
00:37:33
Speaker
what God had to provide in contingent with what the world provides in search of their desire for wisdom. In that same passage, Paul talks about some are Greeks are looking for signs and Jews are looking for signs and Greeks are looking for wisdom, right? But he said, I would destroy the wisdom of the wise and intelligent and intelligent. I would frustrate. It was through that that I became settled in my understanding.
00:38:00
Speaker
that if I want to search for wisdom, it has to be under the studentship and guidance of God's word. And it was through that, that not only would he bring me to a level of understanding, but I can speak with confidence and boldness, declaring what is true and not what is either fallacy or what sounds to be true or contention. Because if there's anything I learned about philosophy, is there's a lot of different theologies, a lot of different ideologies that exist, but there's never anything that is cold-hearted truth.
00:38:29
Speaker
Throughout history, philosophers questioned other philosophers in terms of the conclusions they came up with, but none were ever settled on what obviously is true. And at least the scriptures provide sort of that then end mentality where it's like all source, all wisdom, and Proverbs chapter eight is rooted in Christ himself.
00:38:50
Speaker
So I sort of had to contend with that and understand that all the wisdom, all the information that I would ever need was rooted in Christ and that's where I met my match and that's where I settled in and that's where I actually find my comfort in.
00:39:06
Speaker
So now, yeah, so there's something that I guess this is something to sort of dive a little bit even more deeper into is that when you decided to be a pastor and you wanted to change lives and impact lives,
00:39:28
Speaker
Was it a journey? Was it something absolute? Is it something you saw yourself doing in the beginning? Was it sort of a progress? Kind of walk through a little bit of where God met you and what he ultimately wanted to do with you for the kingdom. It was not really my intent for it to be my quote unquote vocation, if I can say it that way, to be a preacher of the gospel as such.
00:39:57
Speaker
Um, I went to college, you know, trying to figure out some kind of degree that I could pursue. And I did, had been taught by a number of God's people of, hey,
00:40:09
Speaker
you should try to think about getting yourself some kind of career that would give you flexibility to be able to go different places maybe around the world where the gospel isn't preached as much, where you could work, I mean kind of a modern day version of what the Apostle Paul and Aquila and Priscilla and folks like that did where they had a trade and then they're still working and going around like that. So that was kind of my mentality. Whenever I was younger, even in high school actually,
00:40:39
Speaker
area where I grew up in the churches that I was affiliated with did a really good job of trying to encourage young men to learn and develop their skills and how to prepare a lesson, how to deliver a lesson the way that's true and helpful and all that sort of thing. So I remember like going back to high school
00:40:55
Speaker
I can't think of a single time where I've ever asked someone, hey, can I preach? But we get invited like, hey, you don't know how to do this. Why don't you come? Mostly we're churches of old people who probably liked having some kids in their assembly, but also we're just wanting to pass on what they had learned to those who were younger.
00:41:12
Speaker
So I did a little bit of that here and there. Actually, when I was a senior in high school, there was a really small church that just couldn't really afford a real preacher. I'll say it that way. And they had me come and I preached every Sunday, taught Bible class every Sunday for the second half of my senior year of high school and then throughout college.
00:41:32
Speaker
the Lord, I mean, look, if you follow Jesus at all, it's gonna get put on your heart pretty quick that you gotta try to reach your friends, you gotta try to encourage others in their faith. So we do Bible studies, either with folks on campus or, and not any big thing, you know, just one-on-one, let's get together at a coffee shop or whatever, I wasn't leading some big crusade, it was just trying to do my best to help people as I could. Same thing in my local church there in college, you know, trying to encourage, especially the young people, but also teaching, preaching, whatever.
00:42:01
Speaker
So put all that together and then it just so happened as I was getting ready to graduate, I was looking at grad schools, trying to figure out what to do next. And I got a call from an elder at a church in Atlanta, who I knew and who knew me. And I'm sure he said it in a more encouraging way than this, but basically his thing was, hey,
00:42:21
Speaker
We got a bunch of folks coming to our church who don't really know the gospel, and we try to meet them where they're at personally instead of just coming to services. We try to follow up with them, but we just don't have enough workers to do that. Would you want to come and kind of help us out with that? And we're kind of looking to bring in some younger guy who doesn't really know how to preach fully. You know, he could use some help learning how to do it and kind of an apprenticeship type thing, but also kind of learning by doing.
00:42:45
Speaker
And I told the elders when I went and visited with them, I told them, I said, look, you know, I'm not sure that I want to be a preacher. I don't want y'all to feel like it was a waste of time if I come for a year and y'all help me and encourage me. And then I go off and do grad school, do something else, whatever. And I loved it. They were like, no, we don't care. Like, you know, we're happy if you just come and work with us and learn and so forth. So I did that. And honestly, ever since I've been preaching the gospel as my as my vocation since then. But I guess I sound to say that
00:43:12
Speaker
really, and I think this is probably the way it ought to be, I'm looking at Acts 16 with that, whenever Paul came through Lystra and Derby and the saints there said, hey, this kid Timothy, you should talk to him, you should, and Paul ends up taking him with him.
Handling Disagreements and Evolving Scripture Understanding
00:43:29
Speaker
There I see God's people, I should say God through his people, encouraging
00:43:40
Speaker
folks to work in the gospel, to lift up their hands, to spur them on, to give them a sense of duty and responsibility. For me, it was definitely that.
00:43:48
Speaker
I never intended, I'm gonna be a preacher. I never, like I said, can't remember a single time. I had one friend in particular, I remember he would just like, we'd be at a church, like they'd be having some special, you know, series of studies or special event or whatever. And he would be like, hey, do y'all have any spots where maybe I could come preach? I just remember like thinking, oh man, that's so, no dude. Like for our kids, like we shouldn't be asking for that anyways. Even if we were, you know, had something worth saying. So I can't remember any time where I asked like, hey, can I please preach for you?
00:44:17
Speaker
But so many of God's people very graciously and probably far beyond any capability that I've ever had would encourage me, hey, why don't you go do this? Why don't you come do that? And so on and so forth. So I guess if I want to pin it on anything, that's the way I think God works in many ways is through His people, whenever they're really devoted to Him and His cause.
00:44:38
Speaker
and love each other and are helping each other, they lift up the hands of each other to serve. And that's definitely been the case for me is God pushing me through His people. Yeah, speaking of Acts 12, when we saw the separation between Paul and Barnabas, when you reflect upon that and you see that obviously Barnabas wanted to go back and check in and Paul had other ideas about what he would do. And we saw what they went through, right? When he obviously went
00:45:08
Speaker
to share the gospel and obviously the people went and tried to worship them at the time. When you look at that passage and you look at just a separation of them to different ideologies about what they wanted to do and where they felt God was telling them to do.
00:45:23
Speaker
Just in ministry in general, do you ever envious or get upset or frustrated with someone you might have worked with and then you depart? Probably no hard feelings, but you kind of hoped or believed that you and a person you would do a ministry with could have sold eye to eye. What are some of your thoughts just reflected on that passage and how it relates to you personally? I'm trying to think.
00:45:52
Speaker
I'm really fortunate, I guess, including my coworker right now. Anybody that I've ever parted ways with, it wasn't because of some conflict with them. If anything, it was with great sorrow to have to leave them. So I'm sorry, I don't really think I've got much of anything interesting to say about that. I'm really fortunate that I've been able to have really good coworkers who
00:46:15
Speaker
We agreed, like you said, Paul and Barnabas didn't even hate each other. I don't think they had a sharp disagreement about what would be best. And it led to them having to go different ways just because in their judgment, they needed to do different things. When over their belief in the gospel or their character is just a judgment call, I guess. But even at that, man, I say, yeah, I'm sorry to say, I don't really have anything for you on that. I've been really fortunate. I guess I'm happy to say that I'm really fortunate that I've never had that experience quite of having to part ways over that sharp of a disagreement or anything.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's good because you don't wish no one any ill intent, but you sort of just hope that the people you are working with, you both have the heart to want to do what's right for God. And unfortunately, there are some people that part ways, there are lawyers that part ways, just see different ways of how you want to go about and how you want to attack and how you want to serve God in whatever capacity there is.
00:47:11
Speaker
So, okay, I enjoy asking this question because I'm always curious to understand, are there any passages in scripture that you've read in the beginning of when you started doing ministry and now you look back and you have a completely different outlook at them? It could be any verse, any portion of scripture that you have matured and had a different outlook on things.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I sure hope so. If not, I'm in real trouble. I'm having a little bit of heart. Look, give me just a second. Sorry. This is great podcasting to have a long silence. So sorry about that. Yeah, I'm trying to think. If you want, I can give you some examples that I've had over my short period of time of studying scripture and going back.
00:47:59
Speaker
and having a different outlook. So I look at the passage in Matthew chapter five, when he says, you're the light of the world, the world loses its saltiness, how can it become salty again? And looking, so me doing the little thing, diving into the scripture a little bit more, the term salt there means prudence, which is supposed to bring about Godly wisdom, Godly discernment, and Godly judgment. And for the most part, as a Christian, I felt that my goal was to try to almost,
00:48:28
Speaker
change people. But I've learned to realize that as believers, the two passages, right, Thessalonians, where it talks about live a life, make sure you live a quiet life to earn the respect of outsiders, and just stumbling upon what's been stated in 1 John, just talking about being, God is light in him, there's no darkness at all, if we claim to be in fellowship with him, but yet walk into darkness, we don't live out the truth.
00:48:51
Speaker
what sort of changed for me is that I sort of look at it from an appetizer to a full meal concept. And the appetizer aspect to me points out the fact that
00:49:03
Speaker
We as believers are supposed to be an alternative to the society, which allows those to then gravitate to us as a result of them trying things their own way of diving into other belief systems and seeing how far along you have gotten, which is why some people would actually urge to come pray for you. We know that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
00:49:24
Speaker
So there have been times where as a Christian in my early stage, I thought my goal was to go and actually save. And then reading Corinthians, I found out that one person waters, another person plants, God gives an increase. So slowly but surely I realized
00:49:41
Speaker
that that sort as a preservative which preserves me is who I am supposed to be within a society that I'm supposed to maneuver in that's full of darkness and is looking for that light for them to be changed. Which then I kind of understood that the gospel message is not just a personal transformation, it's a public and community reform, which then allows me to realize that it's through that where Christ entered in the society that needed him most
00:50:07
Speaker
And what he did was the way he lived, the way he lived by example and what he provided us allowed him to change as a society, not for him to become a product of the society. So I had to realize that as believers, we don't step in what our iron wrought and what we see in the 1800s in the Catholic Church just murdering people over the place in the name of God. But instead, stepping back,
00:50:33
Speaker
doing what we're supposed to do and allowing those to see how we're living like in the Old Testament, see how close God is to us and how fruitful in the acts that we perform is beneficial for everyone else within the society. Even going back into I want to say Jeremiah about building houses and
00:50:52
Speaker
doing all those things within the society and flourishing and praying for the society is when you really see that we're in the society in itself but we are not supposed to cast a gate and place our emphasis on who we are and our stamp of approval on people but kind of lay back do what we're supposed to do and allow them to sort of gravitate to us and then
00:51:16
Speaker
that opens up the door for them to want to learn, want to receive and live with, you know, change them at their own pace, I guess. So I know I said a bunch of stuff just now, but that passion and stuff kind of sparked it. Sometimes you get expanded more and more on a passion idea. So yeah, well, thanks. And you helped me. I mean, frankly, I was I was actually just listening to you and not really thinking too much about my own list. But I'll give you two. I'll give you two that I didn't think about.
00:51:44
Speaker
And these may be, like yours was a really cool, and really what you're talking about is like a paradigm shift, you know? And I got to say something too, because sometimes people will be like, you know, I always heard growing up, and I didn't hear you say this, I'm just saying, I don't want to do this right now either, like you just avoided. But sometimes, basically, it's like all those dummies that taught me as a kid, you know? So look, I assume that I got taught these things, and I just kind of missed it, you know what I mean? It wasn't paying close enough attention. So I want to say that at the outset. But two things.
00:52:12
Speaker
Uh, one is about the word faith and the other is about the pronoun our and us. Okay. All right. So I'll start with the our and us thing. Um, I'm thinking about like second Peter chapter one and a lot of places in first John. Peter says this in second Peter one verse one.
00:52:30
Speaker
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. For his divine power is granted to us, everything pertaining to life and Godliness, through the true knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and excellence,
00:52:52
Speaker
And through these, He is granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them, you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust." All right. Who cares about the pronouns? I mean, we talk about pronouns a lot actually in our society today, but I'm talking about like the Bible pronouns here of us and you or ours and yours. Peter is writing to Christians. That's clear. Yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
And yet, whenever he writes to them, he says there's an us and then there's a you. There's a we and there's a y'all in this dialogue. Well, I thought Peter were all Christians, man. Why are you saying that you are a part of some group and us Christians are a part of some separate group? Well, for sure, Peter's also a Christian, but I believe in this passage, he introduced himself as an apostle of Jesus Christ. Point being, the apostles were especially appointed
00:53:45
Speaker
a group of messengers who had special authority that really no other Christians since then have had. And their authority wasn't something that was independent. It was really Jesus saying, hey, y'all are my witnesses. Y'all actually heard what I said. Y'all actually touched me, ate with me, saw me, raised up from the dead, saw me ascend to the Father in heaven. You guys are the ones that I'm giving my words to. Now y'all go out and tell everybody what's right and what's not.
00:54:14
Speaker
I think that is a huge thing that a lot of people who are striving to follow God really don't appreciate. Apostolic authority, which this part of me, I know I heard this a lot growing up, but apostolic authority is so easy to overlook or to just get mixed up on. Even today, some people are like, oh, I'm an apostle. It's like, hey, look, I don't know about you.
00:54:38
Speaker
the parameters for an apostle are laid out pretty clearly. Go to Acts chapter one, you had to be there with Jesus, you had to see him face to face, hear his words come out of his lips and into your ears. And if you didn't meet that criteria, you weren't qualified to be an apostle. Even at that, you had to be specially appointed by the Lord himself. It's not something that we can just like say, well, I'm just an apostle, I'm appointing myself, at least an apostle with that kind of authority. My point that is, I think many times there's a passage like this that I've read over,
00:55:06
Speaker
and just skipped over the details of that little us and our as opposed to you and yours. That's a big deal. What Peter is saying is, hey, you need to listen to us who actually heard Jesus. And by the way, part of the point of Second Peter is read what we wrote.
00:55:23
Speaker
so that you actually know the truth, so that you, all of us who are following of Jesus, even up until this day, can be partakers of the divine nature. So to me, that's an example of something that is maybe, I mean, actually a pretty small thing, but when you slow it down and actually pay attention, you're like, actually, that's kind of huge. That's a big difference. So that's one that I'll say that I think I'd missed until somebody pointed out to me a few years ago. And then I kind of see it a lot now in the New Testament, even though I already have pretty strong
00:55:47
Speaker
I had a pretty strong belief in the unique authority that the apostles had. It's just in the New Testament way more than we give it credit for, I think, sometimes. Which, by the way, is why you run into people saying like, oh, Paul, he's a good man.
00:56:01
Speaker
what he said about whatever topic. That was just his opinion. No, it wasn't. He's an apostle of Jesus Christ, speaking the word of God. It's not an opinion. Now, what I may say about it is an opinion. What you may say about it, that's your understanding. But what they said is actually revelation from God. And so there's little phrases like that. Like I said, in John, a lot of 1 John speaks to this as well. So that's one kind of a different paradigm for reading some of the apostolic writings. The other one that may be even more significant to me
00:56:31
Speaker
is the concept of faith. And I'm talking mostly from the book of Romans, but I'm also thinking about the book of Hebrews here. I think we just make a big mistake sometimes of thinking of faith as what you think about. Faith starts with what you think about, but faith is about what you do. And even more than that, it's about who you're loyal to. And you read through, like I said, the book of Romans, read the book of Hebrews. Whenever God talks about faith,
00:57:00
Speaker
I've really come to where I try to just in my head, go ahead and replace that with the word faithfulness or loyalty, you know, allegiance, because that's what really it's all about. The demons believe intellectually, they understand that Jesus is Lord, but their allegiance is to another master. And if I want to be saved by grace, it's only going to happen when I pledge my allegiance, whenever I give my full loyalty, when I am faithful to Jesus.
00:57:28
Speaker
So that's another kind of paradigm shift over the past few years that has been important to me, both for myself and in trying to encourage others in their faith.
00:57:39
Speaker
Yes, so something you said, so there was, I don't know, so this is interesting. I don't know whether I take this to be what he said, but I believe all scripture is Holy Spirit breed, which means if there are some suggestions that are made by the apostles, I think it's made with good reason. So the passage that I'm thinking about that first came to mind when you said, I think it's first Corinthians chapter seven, and I believe he starts out
00:58:06
Speaker
And this verse 10, he says to Mary, I give this command, not I, but the Lord. So there's a distinction when he's talking about the Lord. And then if you go to verse 12, to the rest, I say this, I, not the Lord, if any brother or wife, who is not a believer, she is willing, and then you give like the whole explanations, right? So there's, I think there's like a distinction of the suggestion that is provided. But I don't think
00:58:29
Speaker
that we should look at what the suggestion is and then question that suggestion as a result to the fact that God Himself didn't necessarily say that. But I feel, you know, Scripture in itself partnered with man, the Holy Spirit partnered with man to put together what we believe are things that we ought to abide by and also consider in terms of
00:58:53
Speaker
you know, how we want to live our lives in reflection of Christ himself. So I think there are, those are like the two passes that I've ever saw where he distinguishes what God said to what he would suggest, but what he would suggest I think is within good reason. Being also there's this sort of this transition that we get where it seems culturally people were
00:59:18
Speaker
being able you know you look at Abraham you look at Solomon with the multiple wives and then you sort of see this whole take on the significance and points of marriage and being exclusive in the new testament because of the church and the foundation of the church and trying to see how get people to see the importance of marriage and this i guess the secret i think how i pronounced that the secretary or the
00:59:45
Speaker
the sacredness of what marriage is supposed to look like. So I guess that to me makes a huge jump in what he wants us to do moving forward versus what God allowed and still was able to maneuver past it with what was going on in the Old Testament with the multiple wives and the multiplying of the people on the earth and whatnot.
01:00:07
Speaker
So this question that I came that I wanted to ask, I think is an important one. And I think it's and most times extremely overlooked. What are your what are your thoughts on the article? Right. So let me let me share what my thoughts were that I want to kind of get you under your thoughts on it. Right.
01:00:30
Speaker
I know that for a lot of people, the article signifies this change of heart in a moment in an atmosphere where it feels like there's a potential thought and change of mind in what a person wants to do moving forward. And they sort of get up there and they proclaim, we know in Romans, I think Romans 12, whoever confesses out of his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus is Lord, this individual is saved.
01:01:00
Speaker
And then you sort of get on this tight road of this tight rope boat. What am I supposed to do as a believer moving forward? That is my response to the gospel message. And you sort of get these people that get up there, make that proclamation. They believe that they're saved. They have that article and then their lives don't seem to change. Instead, it seems like in the sporadic portion of that moment, they think that they
01:01:28
Speaker
are moving in the direction of change and obviously they go through that tough period of obviously having to die to themselves and then embrace and pick up their cross.
Understanding and Responding to the Gospel
01:01:40
Speaker
And we sort of get this sense where the altar call can be effective and sometimes and it can be ineffective at other times due to the result that people have once they leave.
01:01:50
Speaker
the sanctuary and out of the community or the congregation, the corporate congregation of believers. What are your thoughts on that? And how do you think we can be more intentional once having the altar call and moving forward with trying to live a life for Christ and not slipping back into the old practices and then all of a sudden having to come back and do it a second or third time? Yeah, yeah.
01:02:20
Speaker
I'm not real sure what an answer or a solution is to that. I think there's probably a layer beneath beneath it that's pretty important. And I mean, actually, this really relates to what I was just talking about with the loyalty idea and salvation. I think if you asked a lot of preachers, frankly, a preacher, how do I how can I be saved, right?
01:02:48
Speaker
I think a lot of the answers that will be given would be, I'm gonna be charitable here and say incomplete. For instance, I think a lot of people, like you just said, I think a lot of people go to Romans 10 almost as like the whole thing. Hey, how do you need me to say, oh, you need to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and you will be saved.
01:03:18
Speaker
Well, here's the interesting thing. First of all, that statement is made to people who are already Christians. Like Romans 10 verse 9 is to Christians. In other words, it's almost like he's saying, hey, if you want to continue in salvation, which by the way, he makes statements like this at the end of Romans 13, the idea that you need to continue in your salvation. Salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed. He's saying like the only way you're going to do it is if you really
01:03:46
Speaker
keep Jesus's lordship in your pledge, like you're constantly pledging your allegiance to Jesus's Lord. And in your heart, you believe that he raised him from the dead. That's the thing that's going to save you in the end. But a lot of people treat that as kind of like that's the whole story of how to be saved.
01:04:05
Speaker
I'll be honest, I don't hear a lot of people go to Acts 2.38, which is probably actually the best passage. It's a more parallel passage than Romans 10 when it comes to someone who has not yet become a Christian, not yet been saved. And in Acts 2.38 and verse 37, after the people heard the gospel message of Jesus's lordship and his kingship, they said, men and brethren, what shall we do? And it's interesting, Peter does not say, confess him,
01:04:35
Speaker
He doesn't say, he certainly doesn't say, pray a prayer to accept Jesus as your personal savior. He didn't say that either. He says in Acts 2.38, repent, meaning turn away from your old way. Turn away from your sin, turn away from yourself, turn away from doing things your way and turn to God. Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
01:05:04
Speaker
you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promises for you and your children and for those who are far off as many as the Lord God calls unto Himself. And that day, those who received His Word were baptized. Acts 2 and I believe about verse 40 and 41 says. Okay, so here's my point with this. How many times have you heard someone say, I want to be saved? And repentance and baptism are actually, that's it. That's what you need to do.
01:05:35
Speaker
I'll just tell you, I meet many, many people who have been, I'm gonna put in air quotes, Christians for a long time, never been baptized or have been continuing in sin. The same sins they were doing before they became a Christian, they're doing the same things, but they prayed a prayer. They answered the altar call.
01:05:55
Speaker
Someone said, do you believe Jesus is Lord? And they said, yes. Frankly, they didn't know what that meant, really. But they heard that if I just kind of say the magic words, I'm not trying to be mean-spirited, but I think that's essentially what we boil it down to sometimes. If I say the magic words, then I'll be saved. Yeah, I'm not talking any kind of works based salvation here. I can't earn my salvation. I can't fix myself. But, um,
01:06:20
Speaker
I think a lot of times the problem with the altar call, like you said, people kind of repeatedly do this. By the way, people can do this with baptism, too. Yeah. You can get dunked in some water and think, oh, getting dunked in some water, that'll save me. Well, no, not if you don't do it in real faith, believing in Jesus as your Lord. Not if you do it apart from repentance. Yeah. Not if you do it without following up in real faithfulness. So to meet actually the fundamental, so sorry.
01:06:48
Speaker
What I'm saying is the whole altar call model is missing the fundamental truths that are revealed in the gospel about how to respond to Christ in a way such as to be saved. And actually, I'll say one more layer beneath that is we probably miss the message of what the gospel is. To me, Romans 1 is one of the most helpful texts on this. If you said, what is the gospel?
01:07:17
Speaker
I think many people, me included, I would say, well, Romans 1.16, the gospel is God's power of salvation. And that's what the gospel is, is that you can be saved. Well, that is, but actually, if you back up Romans 1, verse 1, Paul abons same, same passage, same, same conversation. Like we jumped to 1.16, but start at the beginning of what Paul says. Paul abons heard of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God. What is that?
01:07:48
Speaker
which He promised before and through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures. Okay, well, what is the gospel that He promised in the Scriptures concerning His Son? What about His Son? Who was born of a descendant of David, the great King of Israel, according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power,
01:08:10
Speaker
according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. I think if you ask Paul and I frankly I think if you ask any of the early Christians what is the gospel, they would say Jesus is king or maybe put in a slightly different language Jesus is Lord. Jesus is the master of heaven and earth. All authority has been given on me on heaven and on earth, Jesus would say.
01:08:32
Speaker
That is the good news, is that Jesus is king. Okay, well, how does that relate to the altar call thing? If that's not what I'm calling people to, if what I'm calling people to is, hey, you got problems? Jesus will fix them. Come on down. Hey, you feel guilty? Jesus will take that away. Come on down. Those things are true. But that's not really the gospel. The gospel is Jesus is king, Jesus is Lord.
01:08:57
Speaker
Now, that means that if I pledge my loyalty to him, if I repent of my way to turn and follow his way, if I'm baptized into his death and raised up into his life, then he's taking my sins away. And it's not a thing that I'm doing that I'm gonna be able to beat my chest about. It's not a thing I'm gonna be able to do to boast about. It's all him. Because really all I'm saying is Jesus, instead of living in rebellion against you, I'm gonna come to have you
01:09:26
Speaker
the King and the Lord of all kings and all lords, I'm going to have you rejuvenate and restore my life and give me a new one because you've said that's what you want to do with me. So I'm going to give myself to you. The gospel is that Jesus is King. When I understand that the appropriate response to the gospel is yes, confession, yes, prayer.
01:09:45
Speaker
but not without repentance, not without baptism, not without fully giving my life over to God completely in Jesus's authority as King. And that's what the altar call we need to be making is to come to Jesus as King, not just, hey, you feeling sad, you're feeling guilty, you're feeling emotional, come on down. And I hope I'm not being uncharitable in the way I'm describing that, but I know many times
Living by Faith and Biblical Examples
01:10:09
Speaker
That's what we see. And that's why I think even those who are making that alter car frustrated, like this isn't quite right. There's something missing. And I think those are the things that are missing.
01:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, because I like what you said, because even when someone asked me what the gospel is, I said, listen, there's like four verses that I go to that sum up the gospel. I don't think there's one single verse. I like the Romans 1.16. What I tell people is I say 2 Corinthians 5, verse 17 through 21, where he says, he who knew no sin became sin for us, so that we may become the righteousness of God. And that righteousness is something that we only get through the acceptance of Christ.
01:10:45
Speaker
I point out Ephesians 2.8.9 that speaks that, you know, like you said, there's no amount of works that you can do.
01:10:54
Speaker
that will put you in a place, but we know that we are saved by grace through faith alone, not by works. And obviously the John 3.16, but the interesting thing is that when I tell people, you know, John 3.16, the contingent is that you have to have belief. You have to place your belief in him in order to be saved. Most people believe, oh, I'm saved. No, no, no, no, no. There's a contingent. There's something that is attached to it in order for this to be true for your situation.
01:11:24
Speaker
And this one I've added in, because this speaks a lot to what you're saying is Jesus is king. And I even go at length about that, where for some strange reasons, society has placed Christ in this category as some religious figure when he's never proclaimed to be a religious figure. He's proclaimed to be a king. He said that his king is not of this world. It's Romans 12 too, right? Let us not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed
01:11:50
Speaker
by the renewing of our mind that transformation comes through your consistency where we get Luke 11 28 which is blessing happily favored of those who hear my words and continually observe it so that's how I kind of break down what I believe the gospel message is it's the combination of the appreciation of his crisis righteousness it is not by works but
01:12:13
Speaker
is by grace through faith alone. That is the renewing of my mind and the changing in how I think into the kingdom mindset, the government of God. And then to sum it up, it's the willingness to accept Christ on the contingent that I placed my faith in him and no one else. So I do like the Romans 1.16. I definitely will add that into what I would share to people.
01:12:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I'll just throw in like I think acts to yeah ties a lot of those strings that you just brought out ties a lot of them together. So I mean, I'd say just add that one to the list and maybe in some ways kind of check that out about because I think I think you're right on it's that's really important. Yeah. Now I want to ask you this. This is always an interesting question. And I had to go back and put together how would respond to this question. So I'll give you what my response is. But I actually this
01:13:10
Speaker
Now we know the definition of faith is in Hebrews, but how would you explain what faith is practically to someone that understands the scripture, but they don't know the emphasis on how and what it means to actually have faith?
01:13:27
Speaker
And just for those who are listening, okay, for those who are tuning in, we understand the application for faith in the definition of it is in Hebrews, but there seems to be a struggle.
01:13:42
Speaker
for people trying to practically apply. So we know faith is the substance of things, hopeful, the evidence of things not seen. That's usually what people would go to and be like, well, what is faith? And they'll point to that answer and they'd be like, I don't have no clue. What are you talking about? So I want to understand if you were to explain to somebody what faith is practically, how would you explain it to them?
01:14:06
Speaker
And then I tell you how I what I've reworked to get to that conclusion. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned St. Corinthians five a minute ago. There's a great passion in St. Corinthians five. We walk by faith and not by sight. And that one brings out the idea. Okay, so faith definitely has elements of what I understand, what I use the word believe, even though I've never directly experienced it.
01:14:34
Speaker
But I have some understanding, some conviction, in other words. That's a Hebrews 11 notion. And because of that conviction, there is a set of responses that I carry out. That notion of we walk by faith means that I actually have some conviction and it's kind of the motivation that drives me to actually do something or not do some things in my life.
01:14:57
Speaker
And then I'm back to that notion. I'm kind of still on it here, this notion of loyalty or allegiance. To say we walk by faith, that's an ongoing process. So I have some convictions that move me to respond. I guess the word we would use is obedience or submission. That's the way the scriptures would speak about it.
01:15:20
Speaker
And then there's a sort of enduring, consistent, ongoing nature that that's that loyalty piece. So, I mean, that's still a little bit conceptual. So that's where I say, okay, if I really have faith in Jesus Christ, then that means number one, I actually want to know what he has to say about how I should live. And I'm gonna do my best as imperfectly as I'm gonna do it. And he knows that because he knows all about me.
01:15:45
Speaker
I'm going to do my best to respond with obedience to whatever it is that I'm convicted based on my listening to Him as I read His Word. I'm going to respond in obedience and submission, and I'm going to keep doing that, which means, by the way, I'm going to keep repenting when I mess up. I'm going to keep confessing when I sin, and He's going to pick me up, and we're going to keep going, and I'm going to keep learning and growing and doing better.
01:16:08
Speaker
And so that comes into our morals, our ethics, our relationships, our church practice, the way we behave in the marketplace. Our thoughts, our speech, everything is essentially a byproduct of our convictions about Jesus Christ.
01:16:22
Speaker
that lead to our submissive obedience to Him, that is an ongoing display and act of loyalty, where we're saying, hey, I'm a legion to Jesus Christ. So actually, whatever He says, I'm not gonna do it very well, at least at first, but I'm gonna do my best to submit to Him. So I'm looking at the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, how can I do this stuff?
01:16:41
Speaker
I'm reading through the epistles. Romans 12, he mentions a great passage. Ephesians chapter four, Colossians chapter three, on and on, we could go through where we get specific directives, the works of the flesh versus the fruit of the spirit, right? That's what it means, I think, to live by faith, is I'm convicted about Jesus Christ and His will for me. I'm gonna do my best to submit to His will and obedience, and I'm gonna keep on trying at it in loyalty and faithfulness and allegiance to Him.
01:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're on the same page. When I had to rework what I thought faith was, I think everything that you said kind of hints at the different ways I would describe it. So I've come to realize faith is a reasoned trust. And the reason why I put a reasoned trust is because I call Hebrews 11 the Hall of Faith. It lays out reasons why we should trust because you have actual people who lived
01:17:36
Speaker
and produced and we know later that they strive to want to see this moment obviously when Christ came but they couldn't right but there's a reason and not just in the things that Jesus said but there's a reason that Hebrews 11 lays out all these individuals that they had faith they placed their faith in God
01:17:57
Speaker
The other thing that I've realized is faith is an enduring process. So what you said about just going through a process, the enduring of the process I think is the emphasis of why you're placing your faith in Christ in the first place. But it's sort of like what's said in James when it says, consider it pure joy or kind of joy when you face trials and true relations to know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
01:18:21
Speaker
Perseverance finishes work, so you may be more short and complete, not liking anything. If anyone likes anything, let them ask God who gets generously without finding fault. And I usually pair that with Romans 3 through 5 when it says, rejoicing your sufferings because it produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, character produces hope. Hope doesn't put you to shame because the Holy Spirit's been poured out onto you. So that enduring process is something that we have to learn to embrace and even
01:18:47
Speaker
During the time when Jesus had the conversation with Peter, when he said the devil seeks to have you but I pray that your faith not fail you, it was through that experience and I love it in the NLT, is that he takes what happens to him on a personal basis and then he makes it applicable to express it to share with his brothers.
01:19:05
Speaker
and his sisters. So that's a personal experience, but then making it a public declaration so that people can benefit from it. And then the last portion of it that I would describe what faith is, is an inherent foreknowledge. And the reason why I say is an inherent foreknowledge is as in the book of Isaiah, it talks about this desire for us to want to worship.
01:19:27
Speaker
and that's where we get either self-worship or worship of things where there's money, it's fame, it's all these other things. And we have the desire to do these things and we see it in some of the lustful ways, whether it's in sex and all these different things to try to satisfy that urge. But if we take that emphasis and place it in the significance of Christ, then it points out that's part of what faith is. It's about taking
01:19:52
Speaker
the efforts that we would place in something else and laying it on the shoulders of the concerns the issues at the throne of God who could then comfort us in our time of need so it's in that is where I came to realize like that's like in a practical sense how I would
01:20:09
Speaker
you know, sort of describe what faith is. It's a reason, trust, it's an inherent foreknowledge, and then it's an adoring process. And I guess when I did that, I felt like I was able to express it a little bit better to people outside of the passage in Hebrews and outside of the passage and defacing workstings in James and whatnot. So that's how I kind of came to that conclusion. But it took some time.
01:20:34
Speaker
Now, thanks. So another question that I wanted to ask, right, is when we read scripture and we sort of are looking at the basis, well, let me ask you this.
Importance of Biblical Hermeneutics
01:20:51
Speaker
Uh, can you speak about the importance of what, or why we need a biblical hermeneutic when it comes to just the desire to study scripture?
01:21:00
Speaker
And this kind of touches bases to revisit at the top of what we discussed. The importance of understanding why the context matters, if it's a hyperbole, if it's a metaphor, there's certain things and things that we should take little versus things that should be a bit more practical or the parables is in one sense, it's a surface practical sense. And then there's a kingdom message after. Can you speak to the importance of why having a strong basic hermeneur is important just for the reading of scripture?
01:21:32
Speaker
you know, there's a story near the end of before Jesus was crucified. So that last week, as we understand it, whenever he's in Jerusalem, and he's speaking to the religious leaders and, you know, kind of going back and forth with them about
01:21:48
Speaker
about a number of issues. And in that discussion, he says them and I think it's in Matthew chapter 21, I get a little bit, I get my gospel accounts a little mixed up and I want to make sure I got it right here. Maybe in Matthew, oh yeah, Matthew 22, excuse me, 22, 29. Some people had a question for him. It was a Bible question. It was a question based on
01:22:13
Speaker
commands of the Lord and different theological conclusions you could reach. You can read it, you know, on your own, whatever. But verse 29 of Matthew 22 says, but Jesus answered and said to them, you are mistaken. These were Bible readers, serious Bible readers, you know, religious leaders, even you are mistaken. To your point, just reading the Bible doesn't mean you're going to get the right answers. You can actually be mistaken by reading the Bible a lot. You are mistaken. How's that?
01:22:41
Speaker
since you do not understand the scriptures nor the power of God. So, I mean, to your overarching question, why is it important? Well, Jesus says an improper or poor understanding of the scriptures perhaps leads to or certainly can facilitate a misunderstanding of God Himself. That's paired here with it, right?
01:23:08
Speaker
And as such, we can become mistaken about what's true and what's right. And this conversation, by the way, it was about whether or not the resurrection was even a reality. And you said, y'all say no, and you are mistaken, right? That's a pretty big deal. Okay. So I absolutely do think it's really important for us to get the right
01:23:31
Speaker
right approach to understanding God's will in the scriptures. Here's the thing that comforts me. It's actually really funny you asked us. We're actually doing a Bible study series right now at our congregation on this, because it's pretty vital, pretty important. It's comforting to me. Jesus himself shows us how to use the scriptures. Jesus could have walked around when he was on earth and been like, hey, I'm God in the flesh. I'm just gonna tell you all the answers. But he doesn't do that. He actually shows us the math.
01:24:00
Speaker
on how he figured out as a man, as an Israelite living under the Old Covenant, you know, since, of course, he hadn't died and been raised up and established the New Covenant yet, which we live under now. He says, this is how you use the Scriptures. So you can go to Matthew 4.
01:24:16
Speaker
when he's in the wilderness with the temptations with the devil and you can see and you can learn some lessons about how Jesus used the scriptures to reach his conclusions about how he understood God's will. You go to Matthew 12 whenever people were criticizing him for
01:24:31
Speaker
of eating basically, grabbing some snack in a field on the Sabbath day. And he corrects them and helps them understand this by using the scriptures. And he shows us a model for how to properly interpret the scriptures. Go to Matthew chapter 19, where there's a question about divorce. Once again, Jesus shows us Matthew 22 that I just referenced. Over and over again, Jesus shows, here's how you ought to use the scriptures to answer your questions.
01:24:57
Speaker
And so we absolutely do need to make sure we have the right hermeneutics, but I'm thankful that the Lord Himself came in the flesh and operated under the boundaries of Scripture to demonstrate to us and set a model for us on how to do this. And if we pay attention to Him, we too would do the same. And I will just say, in general, there's two things that I think we need to look for in terms of properly understanding God's will in the Scriptures. In John chapter 5,
01:25:23
Speaker
Jesus is actually talking about what people were saying about the scriptures. He talked about how the scriptures testified of him, and he says two things in verse 19 and then in verse 30. He says, hey, the things I do, I only do the things that the Father has shown to me, and I only do the things that the Father has told me. So when I'm reading the scriptures, I need to look for
01:25:47
Speaker
what are the things that God shows, demonstrates through his own actions or through his people as being things that he's supportive of, positive about, et cetera. And what are the things that he explicitly says? That doesn't answer every question, but that's a pretty good starting point. There's a problem, a lot of us, we're like, what's the stuff God doesn't condemn? Well, that doesn't work, because there's lots of stuff God didn't condemn throughout history.
01:26:15
Speaker
But actually, whenever God has told us what he does want, that shows us the stuff that he doesn't want by implication, right? Whenever he tells things that he does want, it shows us the way. So, I mean, that's a whole deep dive of hours and hours of thought and study and practice and such. But I think those are some important principles that Jesus himself is the starting point to show us how to properly understand and submit to God's will.
01:26:40
Speaker
Yeah, the passes I was thinking about was 2nd Peter 3, 14-8. I'll just read it for you.
01:26:57
Speaker
diligent to be found by him in peace spotless blameless in regard to patience of our lord be saviour just as our beloved brother paul according to the wisdom given wrote to you also in all his letters speaking them in these things of which some things are hard to understand was the untaught unstable distorted distort them as they do also with the rest of the scriptures to their own destruction you therefore beloved knowing this beforehand be on your guard lease
01:27:24
Speaker
Being carried away by the error of unprincipled men. You fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ to him be the glory both now and today of eternity. Amen. So there's a portion I want to ask you about prayer.
01:27:41
Speaker
But there was something I felt that Jesus said, I think it's Luke chapter 10, verse 25 to 27, when he's speaking to the expert in the law, and he questions, he says, you're an expert in the law, how do you read it, right? And what I got out of that is that if we come to the Scriptures with bias and prejudice,
01:28:02
Speaker
then immediately the things that we ought to interpret that are true, immediate or distorted, because we can't come to the scriptures with our own pre-nostications about what we believe the scriptures are. Sometimes we have to, not sometimes, all the times, we have to let the scriptures conform us to the lifestyle we ought to live versus wanting the scriptures to conform to the lifestyle that we want to live. And that tends to be something that people sort of gravitate to where
01:28:30
Speaker
They think that if I can just get the scriptures to conform to what I am doing, then I can live and operate in what I believe is supposed to be true. And unfortunately, that's not what the scriptures say. We can't come in with a certain idea and a concept and then want to try to translate it and apply it to and manipulate it to what we want so that we can cover ourselves and bask in our own self-righteousness that we have. And I think that tends to happen quite often.
01:29:00
Speaker
Now, now the question I want to ask you about, specifically, and this is a question that was asked to me recently, and I had to go back and pray and sort of study the scriptures.
Understanding Unanswered Prayers and God's Will
01:29:11
Speaker
What do you believe are some of the reasons why certain prayers don't get answered for people? I mean, like, I like what one old preacher said, that's a
01:29:27
Speaker
don't try to whittle on God's end of the stick. Some little kid got a little pocket knife out in the woods and he's whittling on a stick. That's God's end of the stick, that's not mine. First of all, I mean, I think probably all prayers get answered, just not in the way that I'd always want them to be answered, right? Sometimes I want things and God says no, or not yet. Zacharias and Elizabeth in Luke chapter one, the angel comes and says, your prayers have been answered. And Zacharias is like, what?
01:29:57
Speaker
The impression I get is that Zacharias and Elizabeth, who had prayed for a child, who eventually became John the Baptist, they'd given up on that prayer a long time ago because they're too old. That's what they thought now. God's answer was, seemed to be no to their prayer, but actually it was just not yet. That was all it was. So, you know, that's it. But I mean, certainly sometimes the reason why God, and I think we know what we mean when we say, why don't, why do certain prayers not get answered? We mean like, why is the answer no, sometimes.
01:30:25
Speaker
I mean, I like Matthew seven, seven through 11 here. God is a good father, and he doesn't give his children bad stuff. And so God is wiser than me. And so yeah, if I ask anything according to his will, he gives it to me. But I have a bunch of stuff that isn't according to his will, that would actually be harmful to me or harmful to others or whatever the case may be. And so
01:30:50
Speaker
I think the big thing about prayer is whenever Jesus was in the garden, He fully expressed exactly what He wanted to His Father. Father, if it's possible, let this cup pass for me, and we should do that. We should go to our Father and ask for whatever it is that's on our mind or on our heart or whatever our desire may be. That's a big part of prayer. Just go into God with what you think would be best, what you would like, what you wish for. But the real prayer was, yet not my will, but your will be done.
01:31:17
Speaker
by the way is exactly what Jesus taught his disciples to pray. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So to me, we got to reframe the way we think about prayer and that is I'm actually praying that God would
01:31:34
Speaker
answer every prayer to reshape me, as opposed to my prayers reshaping him and what his will is, I want my prayers to God to work in them to reshape me and my will. And you know what? Yeah, I am gonna ask for lots of things for God to come through on, but at the end of the day, Father, I trust you and whatever it is you wanna give me, that's fine. Whatever you don't give me, that's good because I know you won't out of your love for me, out of your concern for me.
01:32:04
Speaker
Take my favorite verse when it comes to just a prayer. Now, I don't think this was an actual prayer, but I think this can hint at something. When Jesus told his disciples, I have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them all now.
01:32:18
Speaker
that is to some extent part of God's love because if he's withholding it, he understands that if you all were to receive it all right now, it'll probably destroy you. So we know that in maturing in the faith, maturing in your relationship with Christ, it takes time. And that time
01:32:35
Speaker
is necessary in order for you to grow so that when he wants to give it to you, you are in a place to receive it. You are in a place to do what he believes you'll do right with it. So that waiting portion and that access, and I also just talk about the points of self-reflection. The Book of Mark where I believe this Jesus is having a conversation with the rich young ruler
01:32:56
Speaker
and the rich young euler starts to talk about I've kept all the the laws was the 613 since I was young and then Jesus said well there's one thing you lack give up all your riches and come follow me and we saw that he held on to his riches that and then Jesus says it's the scripture says that he loved him
01:33:15
Speaker
and then go away and the question is always asked about how could you love someone and let them go and it's the beautiful thing about self-reflection is that people need time they need a process to go through before they can't embrace what it is that they know that God is calling them to do and right then and there now we don't know what happened to the rich wrong ruler whether he actually did any of that but we do know
01:33:39
Speaker
that loving people at a distance is necessary because it was through that time or through that time period people can then reassess and re-reflect and then make quality decisions after they've had the time to think about it and I think that's sort of what it is God wants us to do is he wants us to reflect not just
01:33:57
Speaker
on the scriptures but to also reflect on the decisions that we make and we need to make better once and go and hasty into things immediately. It's not going to produce great outcomes. It's the people that take the time to reconsider things and get an informed opinion that they can make better decisions that seek out their
01:34:18
Speaker
their success.
Personal Reflections on Biblical Books
01:34:20
Speaker
So I guess I wanted to ask you this, and I don't think this is probably unfair of a question to ask, but I still ask, do you have any favorite books in the Bible, any any favorite scriptures that that you love very much and that you you just love either preaching about thinking about reading or bring comfort to you? Definitely. I'm gonna put first and second Samuel as one unit.
01:34:45
Speaker
I understand originally they were one unit, so I'll put them together. The stories there, the lessons, especially as they relate to learning how to develop humility, especially in Mr. Trials, that's huge for me. So Samuel, I'll say. Book of Isaiah, I think it's one of the best
01:35:02
Speaker
just awesome descriptions of the gospel obviously prophesied you know thousands of years before Christ or hundreds of years I should say before Christ came but but Isaiah is huge for me I go back to that one a lot some great images not only of Christ but also Christ people is really moving I'm gonna say just depends on which
01:35:23
Speaker
which week you catch me, the four Gospels. These days, I gotta say, I've really been drawn to Matthew. I really like reading Mark with somebody who's new to the Gospel just because Mark's very straightforward to the point and easy to introduce someone to Jesus with the Gospel of Mark, but lately for myself, I've really been helped by the Gospel of Matthew. Second Corinthians, I'm always going back to when it comes to
01:35:48
Speaker
you know, ministry, encouragement, and perspective in ministry. When I'm down, when I'm discouraged, when I'm feeling like I'm, it's not going well, I'm going to 2 Corinthians, that's helping me out. And then, then it's probably,
01:36:03
Speaker
probably Ephesians for just like a hey let me just think about what it means to be a Christian what God's done in my life what he is doing what he will do and I like the yeah so I mean I could I mean you you could you could ask me all six three well not all 66 but I think just about all 66 I could give you something I'm like hey I like this one about that one but those are those are some highlights for me books that I go back to a lot and it really mean a lot to me
01:36:25
Speaker
I'm learning like songs right now. I'm seeing the uniqueness and the connection that it has with all the other scriptures and how they complement because songs for the most part for me, I know a lot of artists sort of gravitate to it because that's where they get their songs and their inspiration. But for me, I love music but I for the longest sort of was very resistant to songs but I've learned to embrace
Invitation to Connect and Closing Remarks
01:36:49
Speaker
it.
01:36:49
Speaker
So without further ado, I just want to thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate our mutual congregate of yours and a friend of mine's vow for connecting us. This was great. This was amazing. I appreciate it. So is there any way people can contact you? Any way people can attend your church and those who are within the metro area in New York that have a desire to want to be in a good Bible-based church with good teachings?
01:37:14
Speaker
You can put out any information, whether it's your website, whether it's any social media platforms, any emails, so that people can be a new member of your church.
01:37:24
Speaker
You know, probably one of the best ways for someone to contact us would be through social, the way BK, as in Jesus is the way, BK for Brooklyn, the way BK, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. You know, someone could get to know a little bit more about some of our teaching and so forth activities there and make contact. And yeah, we're here to help whoever may be interested in the gospel or encouragement, even if you already believe in the gospel, we're working together here.
01:37:53
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Ben, for coming on, if you don't mind, because you'll close us out in prayer. Yeah, thank you for letting me join you today. Father in heaven, I pray that you would guide us today to know you, to love you, to serve you in every way so that you'd be honored in our lives and in our eyes so that we'd be able to enjoy you more, so that we'd be able to be made strong in your love for us, but also so that
01:38:23
Speaker
Your name would be made known all throughout the world. Forgive us, Father, for whatever ways we fall short. And please keep being patient with us and changing us and transforming us so that we can fully become like your son, Jesus. It's in his name we pray. Amen. Amen.