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Episode 261: Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters Talk All Things Coaching, Freelancing, and Mindset Monsters
200 Plays4 years ago
"Everything we do as freelance business owners is a leap of faith," says Wudan Yan (@wudanyan), co-host of The Writers' Co-op Podcast with Jenni Gritters (@jenni_gritters).
They talk about:
- Business proposals
- The most common questions they get as coaches
- Jenni "leaving" journalism
- And so much more!
Sponsors: West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing and HippoCamp 2021
Recommended
Transcript
Massachusetts Slang: 'Jug it'
00:00:01
Speaker
Do even lift, bro. Yeah, guy. Do even understand, guy. Yeah, kid. Whatever. Jug it. That was a taste of growing up in Lakeville and Freetown, Massachusetts. Jug it is another term for white trash that I think is unique to Southeastern Massachusetts. Never heard it elsewhere. Great term. But get this. I Googled it. And the first thing that came up with the Urban Dictionary, which is the best dictionary there is,
00:00:30
Speaker
to see if it had any other definition, and this is what it said. Hillbilly, hick, redneck, someone who is poor, Chase Road, Freetown Mass is the primary habitat for these creatures. Almost exclusively used in Freetown in Lakeville, Massachusetts. I nearly busted a gut kid.
00:00:51
Speaker
Okay, enough of that kind of talk that makes people no doubt unsubscribe, this is a serious podcast for serious people. When they sat around the Algonquin Roundtable, I believe this is what they put on the gramophone.
00:01:10
Speaker
That's right, I'm
Introducing The Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:01:12
Speaker
Brendan O'Mearan. This is the creative non-fiction podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. Badass people like Wu Dan Yan. Everything we do as freelance business owners is a leap of faith. Will this pitch get accepted? Will the client be open to my contract negotiations? Will the editor even open my email?
00:01:37
Speaker
and badass people like Jenny Gridders. Anyone's journey is as unique and valuable as any other journey. It's sort of the premise in which we begin our coaching sessions and it's true,
Podcasting as a Reflection of Life
00:01:49
Speaker
right? There's no right or wrong.
00:01:51
Speaker
Oh, we get into some stuff, CNFers. Their third season of the Writers Co-op podcast just went public. And this time, coaching is more the theme. They're in their third season, like I said, but they've been doing this podcast for maybe a little over a year. Yeah, I know podcast seasons can get weird like that.
00:02:09
Speaker
Make no mistake, we're in year nine of the Shit Show here at CNF Pot HQ. One long, sad season.
Promoting Creative Nonfiction MFA
00:02:16
Speaker
Support for the Creative Nonfiction Podcast is brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan College's low residency, NFA, and Creative Nonfiction. Creative nonfiction, creative writing.
00:02:25
Speaker
God 40 flogs for that for that mess. Sorry Now in his tenth year this affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio and a strong sense of community Recent CNF faculty include a random Billings Noble Jeremy Jones and CNF pod alum Sarah Einstein. I did the research. It's episode 12. That's one and
00:02:48
Speaker
There's also fiction and poetry tracks. Recent faculty include Ashley Bryant Phillips and Jacinda Townsend, as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. No matter your discipline, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. Visit nfa.wvwc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
Social Media Challenges and Alternatives
00:03:15
Speaker
Keep the conversation going on social media at cnfpod. The cnfpod Instagram is still in underage jail in the underage court of appeals. It might get deleted. I appealed it, but who the hell knows? I thought I was being cute by giving it its actual birthday, but it got flagged for being underage. And now it is suspended, if you will. So if you want to connect on Instagram, it's at Brendan O'Mara. Twitter profiles are fine. I'm Brendan O'Mara at cnfpod.
00:03:45
Speaker
If you want leaving a review for the podcast on Apple goes a long long way towards validating the CNF and enterprise for the wayward CNF or also consider becoming a member on the patreon page as I'm putting together next issue of the audio magazine getting the tightness in my chest because we're coming up on the deadline of it publishing and
Hippocamp 2021 Conference Announcement
00:04:07
Speaker
Issue one on isolation was free and will remain in the podcast feed in perpetuity, but issue two and beyond will be for the Patreon community. Patrons get lots of cool goodies, as well as the knowledge that they're supporting writers and the CNF community. You won't want to miss it, man. Check it out.
00:04:26
Speaker
And from now until August, I plan on giving the loudest of shout outs to Hippocam 2021. It's back in Lancaster, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and registration's open. It's a conference for creative nonfiction writers. Marion Winnick will be this year's keynote speaker. I will be delivering a podcast-themed talk. Hope you'll hope to see you there.
Role of a Writing Coach
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Speaker
I can't speak highly enough of this conference. There are four scholarships and six full awards open until June 15th, those applications, including for writers of color and first-time attendee scholarships.
00:04:59
Speaker
We've got a debut CNF author panel featuring Lily Danziger, CNF pot alum, Noyce, Greg Mannia, Carol Smith, and Janine Willett, August 13th through the 15th. Dig it. And you know, you've heard me say that if you want to get into shape, you hire a personal trainer. You know the fundamentals of getting in shape, but you hire a trainer to hold you accountable because he's just not working for you, am I right? To put you through the paces and maybe to see things you can't see.
00:05:28
Speaker
That's where I come in. So if you're ready to level up your book, your manuscript or book proposal, I'd be honored and thrilled to help you get where you want to go. So email me and we'll start a dialogue. All right. Like I said, Wudanyan and Jenny Gridders are here to talk up their new season, but we get into some freelancing nitty gritty business proposals and the maelstrom of Jenny's leaving journalism essay that caused a better, why can't
Humorous Sponsor: 'Okum'
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Speaker
I say this?
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Speaker
A veritable shitstorm on the internet. Good, good stuff. And one final sponsor. Show is brought to you by the word Okum. O-A-K-U-M. It's a noun. A loose fiber obtained by untwisting and picking apart old ropes used for cocking the seams of ships. Okum. Thanks Okum. Alright, you rogues and weirdos. You ready to go?
00:06:33
Speaker
Whatever it is, they sometimes lack that depth of commitment. Their attention is very splintered or fractured. And I just wanted to get a sense of what that's been like for you guys in your freelance discipline, even in regards to the podcast, just of leaning in and leaning into those those things.
Podcast Growth and Collaboration
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Speaker
Because if we fracture our attention too much, we can't really get where we want to go.
00:06:57
Speaker
That's hilarious because I think the only reason we've sustained the podcast for as long as we have is because there's two of us. There's a lot to be said about accountability.
00:07:13
Speaker
kind of this pact, this unspoken pact slash promise that Jenny and I made to each other when we started the podcast and then we created an LLC and then created a joint bank account and all these other very formal things. And yeah, so I mean, I think that requires some thought and intentionality and has been the backbone more or less of how we got from our very beginnings to where we are now.
00:07:40
Speaker
you know, before we started this podcast, I had this idea that I was going to take all the things I learned about running a freelance business and put them in an ebook. So I'd actually like mapped out an outline kind of, but I never did it. I mean, I never wrote the thing. And then once we didn't, I started talking about this project, that outline sort of roughly became what our first season was. So there is definitely, like what Dan said, something to having someone else
00:08:06
Speaker
keeping you committed, right? If either of us wants to back out, we're both very aware that the other person is also on this boat. So I think it keeps us both with our heads in the game a lot more than I would have, I'm not sure I would have
00:08:21
Speaker
actually been able to build this during a pandemic without you, Dan, right? Like we needed both of us to get through this. Totally. And I love how each season kind of has its own character of your podcast. And so how cognizant were you that you wanted to turning the ratchet in that sense in terms of the sort of tenor or the timber of each season?
00:08:46
Speaker
You know, I think we made each season without thinking about the next season. This whole thing has been, let's try this one thing and see if it works. And then if it does, we'll try something else. So the first season was very, I think we didn't, I'd say it was very clear, right? That we knew that we wanted to sort of, yeah, cover the basics. And then the second season felt obvious too, because we knew that we wanted people to hear from folks who weren't just us.
00:09:12
Speaker
it was like season one was definitely you know you guys in your experience going back and forth and then you brought in other voices to realize well this isn't just how how we could how we can do it other people are doing this too and now and this uh this next season you're actually kind of really putting coaching to the forefront so you know talk a little bit about that
Demystifying Coaching for Freelancers
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Speaker
Yeah, that's actually this season. We started launching episodes to the public a few weeks ago. We didn't really feel inspired to do that until a few months leading up to deciding to roll these episodes out. And I can say that both Jenny and I are kind of voracious consumers of podcasts. And when I think about the podcasts that
00:09:56
Speaker
I find the most illuminating. It's stuff like Death's Sex and Money with Anna Sale or Esther Perel's podcast where she has anonymous therapy sessions. She is a sex and relationship therapist and some of her episodes on Where Should We Begin?
00:10:16
Speaker
are explicitly about how couples navigate relationships. And her new one is about work. It's called How's Work? And the idea that I had was, well, coaching is kind of similar. It's not therapy. We're not trained and qualified therapists, but coaching is very similar in helping people find their truth in building their own freelance business to their vision, whatever that looks like. And I think that required a little bit of demystifying.
00:10:43
Speaker
Both Jenny and I have been coaching for a second and have individually built out pretty successful coaching practices, I would say.
00:10:53
Speaker
What I tell my coaching clients is that coaching is kind of like riding a bike with training wheels. I, the coach, am that person's training wheels. They can't always have the training wheels on. At some point, they come off. But how do I train other people to basically coach themselves after our sessions are over? And so I think
00:11:16
Speaker
Making those coaching sessions and what happens during a coaching session more transparent naturally allows more people to run through those questions in their own head if they don't have the money to pay for a business coach, for instance. Yeah, totally. I think there's something in this, too, of
00:11:34
Speaker
like we'd shown everybody what it looked like to do this with some level of expertise. But I also felt like it was really important and Lou Dan felt like it was important to show what it looks like to be struggling,
Freelancer Struggles and Solutions
00:11:45
Speaker
right? Because that is a very ever present reality of freelancing. And from coaching, we both realized that there were some certain
00:11:53
Speaker
I would say brands of struggle that everybody was dealing with. And so we actually pretty specifically picked people who would help us address some of these issues. The core thing I want people to take away from this season is basically, if I'm struggling, I'm not alone. This is a tough industry. And there are some markers that I think almost everybody struggles with, which we were seeing in our coaching practice. So that's how this third season came to being as an idea.
00:12:22
Speaker
What are the nature of some of those brands of struggle that you found? Oh my God. Jenny and I at one point in our text conversations came up with a bunch of archetypes that a lot of our coaching clients fall into. There are people like, we call them the purists, I think, Jenny. Folks who just want to do freelance journalism and are so terrified of tainting their brand, even though they're not making enough money,
00:12:50
Speaker
by taking on commercial work, for instance. There is the hustler who is just taking whatever comes their way and probably acting out of scarcity for some reason. There are people who are really good at what they do, also want to build up the confidence to pursue more ambitious projects, more higher paying projects, more higher paying clients, etc.
00:13:16
Speaker
I forgot the rest, but there were about like nine or 10 archetypes in there. And it's easy, patterns form the more that you do anything, right? And for coaching, I think Jenny and I started to see these patterns and there are different, everyone's freelance business growth is...
00:13:35
Speaker
unique, for sure. But there are some common things, actionable things, that people who fit these archetypes, we believe, can do to really blossom as freelance business owners. Yeah, I think the things we see the most are people who are really skilled but don't have confidence, like what Dan said. I think we see that a lot with women and minority folks. There's also the frazzled parent archetype, which I may be also a part of now.
00:14:04
Speaker
you know, not having enough time, there are people who struggle with saying no, folks who are sort of just taking whatever comes without a general sort of direction. So you'll hear us talking about a lot of these themes in season three, and offering some like practical tips and exercises and things that you can do if you're struggling with one of them. A lot of money stuff too, right? Like there are these themes for sure.
00:14:27
Speaker
What would you say are the most actionable things that someone can do to just bring a certain level of clarity
Strategic Freelance Business Planning
00:14:33
Speaker
to their freelance approach, especially if they're looking to make that pivot full time?
00:14:41
Speaker
Oh my God, can I yell about business plan? Yes, we can. Make a business plan. You know, it seems really like weirdly, I don't know, it's like a college homework assignment, right? Like make a business plan, identify your key areas of, you know, where you could expand and who your clients are.
00:15:00
Speaker
But there's something really powerful about defining where you want to go. And also, like what Dan said, everybody's business plans are different, right? Like, I don't want you to replicate my business plan. I want you to figure out what you care about and what your values are and what you need to be happy. And then we're going to build a business based on that. So
00:15:18
Speaker
We've been joking that like every single episode we're recommending we have a business planning workbook on our website and we're like, can you please go make a business bank? Can you please go make this? Because the clarity is huge. I mean, I think you can't figure out where you want to go. I mean, you can't get there if you haven't figured out where you want to go, right?
00:15:37
Speaker
Yeah, I 100% agree. Jenny just yesterday on Twitter shared her business plan for the summer and I thought that's brilliant. My summer business plan, my summer fund business plan lives in my head. Let me put it on a sticky and do the math and I realized that I was already overextended with
00:15:56
Speaker
the very offline life that I strive to live during the summers where it's glorious and beautiful and sunny and hopefully free of wildfire smoke in the Pacific Northwest. So what does that mean for me? Something's got to give. What am I going to give up? So I think that's generally a good thing to go through every quarter.
00:16:19
Speaker
What do I want my business that's different? What changes do I need to make? And really doing the math and having that light bulb moment of, oh crap, is really informative, I think.
00:16:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think when we say business planning, we mean like, what services are you offering? How much money do you want to make? What is that math out to you in terms of your hourly rate? Right? How much are you gonna work? How much vacation are you taking? What kinds of clients do you care about working with? Because those things also change over time. So like, just because you figured them out three years ago does not mean that that's gonna work for you right now. So the business plan I posted is like my
00:16:57
Speaker
Hi, Jenny is working 15 hours a week summer business plan, which sort of maps out the percent of energy I'm spending on each of my services and how much I'm making from them. So yeah, we love to have people get clarity on that. I just think it is a it pays dividends. It's like very worth a few hours of your time.
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, Dan, what you were saying earlier about that hustler archetype who is working from a more scarcity mindset instead of an abundant mindset, I think if you sit down and spend a few hours with a coach or even by yourself doing this business plan and get that clarity about what your unique skills and talents can be applied to,
00:17:36
Speaker
You're going to start to notice that it's not a scarce world out there, that there is quite a lot of work out there for you. Once you sort of really point the arrow in the right direction, then you realize you can refer out to other things, to the people in your community. And there is plenty of work. Instead of just trying to grab everything that comes your way, you just like, no, I go and do this direction. And that clarity leads to a more, I think, abundant mindset, at least intellectually, it makes sense to me.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's very, it's very freeing, right? Like to assume you have to do what everybody else is doing means it's a very crowded space to figure out what you want to do. Hell yes. I mean, there's so much more room, right? No one else is on that path. It just, I see people relax when they make plans like this too, right? Because it's like, oh, okay. Like I know how to do this stuff. This is me. I like doing this. I'm good at this, right? Versus trying to shove themselves into something that might not be a fit.
00:18:34
Speaker
you know, to your question about what kind of practical things or homework can people do. One thing with Dan and I have also been recommending with Dan, I think also like every episode is this confidence log, which is basically just a place where you write down why you are competent and what proof there is in the world that you can be trusted. It requires kind of
00:18:54
Speaker
It's hard to say like, I am good at this specific thing. And so we like to have a, yeah, people make little like lists of proof of why they're good at that thing. So when your brain goes into that scarcity mentality and, you know, tries to keep you safe and says like, no, you're not good at this. There is some, there's a place you can look, right? That has some evidence to suggest otherwise.
00:19:17
Speaker
What would you say is the most common question you get from a lot of maybe first-time clients who are getting into freelancing for the first time?
Balancing Passion and Paying Work
00:19:28
Speaker
One question that I get a lot is how to balance the paying work with the passion work. So when I hear that question, I have a set of questions that I ask them in return, namely how they want to spend their time, how much money they need, how much creative space and runway, literal time in their schedule that they want for the creative stuff.
00:19:53
Speaker
and being practical about how all of these things affects the rates that they need to be making. It's a big calculation matrix, but I would say that is a big, big, big challenge. That's also to say that I think I attract a very specific type of coaching client, and that is somebody who wants to make a sustainable living doing freelance journalism primarily, and using other types of clients to help pay the bills.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think I get asked a lot, am I doing this wrong? I work with a lot of people who are interested in digging into the mindset. I really love psychology and developing frameworks and figuring out how to make your schedule efficient and building something that aligns with your values. But a lot of people come in believing that they have screwed up in some way. And I think that is largely because
00:20:48
Speaker
The freelance creative space is very ripe with advice and people shouting about doing it one way or another. I think that's why Dan and I are pretty big on, let's build something that works for you, not something that adheres to a specific rule book. I get a lot of people saying,
00:21:05
Speaker
should I be sending 500 pitches or five pitches?" And I'm like, I don't know, you tell me. What do you think? And so a lot of that work is sort of cluing into like, what does your gut tell you? What do you want? I mean, a lot of times no one has ever
00:21:21
Speaker
asked people that. And so I spend a lot of time with people like firing back at them questions about like, well, what do you think? I mean, I don't know. There's no rules. Like if there's no rules, what would you pick? And so that that's my favorite stuff to do, I think sort of like unlearning all these like arbitrary rules that like may or may not work for people.
Build Confidence in Freelancing
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah, in freelancing, there's inherent instability and I think a lot of fear and resistance on the part of the freelancer. So how do you get people comfortable with that discomfort to dance with that fear and that resistance?
00:21:57
Speaker
Honestly, the only way to do it is to keep putting yourself out there. Everything we do as freelance business owners is a leap of faith. Will this pitch get accepted? Will the client be open to my contract negotiations? Will the editor even open my email? I kind of went down the scale or, you know, picks different points on the scale of things that are scary, right? Like of even just like sending an email.
00:22:27
Speaker
So I think the more we practice just as any other activity, the more we practice, the better it feels in the long term and the less scary it becomes. And we talked about confidence and bravery as a muscle. So even lifting a two-pound weight is toning that muscle, same way that is lifting a 40-pound weight that is also building that muscle, right?
00:22:54
Speaker
That's how I think about fear and confidence and all those other mindset monsters that I think a lot of freelancers struggle with. Yeah, I'm just starting a coaching training program to become a certified professional coach and
00:23:09
Speaker
It's really interesting to me, confidence is actually the first bucket that we spend a lot of time in. And like Wudan said, reflection is actually the way you work that muscle. So you try a thing, and then you reflect. And then you try again, and then you reflect. And over time, you become more confident. But when we have to do all these exercises ourselves in this program so that we can then teach them to other people, and what I think is interesting is that they don't ask you to go from a level one on confidence to a level 10.
00:23:39
Speaker
The question is always, what can you do to get from a one to a two? And so that is the thing of like, negotiate for 50 more dollars. You know, put yourself out there a little bit more often by sending two additional emails, right? It's like this tiny, tiny metric that like, over time, maybe you get to attend, but like, you're not going to go from a one to attend. So I think that's when we're working with people on the fear stuff.
00:24:01
Speaker
It is like these tiny actions, just figuring out how to take like very small risks and get used to those. Yeah. And even if you get to the 10, you have to maintain that 10, right? So what are you continually going to do to tone that 10, if you will?
00:24:18
Speaker
And when you're looking at your own paths and connecting the dots backwards, I think when we get started in this, we have a certain identity as a writer or a freelancer or whatever it is we do.
00:24:33
Speaker
And then, of course, that changes over time or, you know, it probably should.
Evolving Identities in Freelance
00:24:39
Speaker
And so how has your identities and your collective identities changed from who you were maybe five as little as five years ago, maybe going back even farther as far as 10 to who you are and where you are now?
00:24:52
Speaker
Brendan, this is a very hard question. I think, you know, when I started out in this industry, I had a lot of hopefulness that I could make this work and my identity was being the person who did everything.
00:25:11
Speaker
I went into these jobs and I wanted to be seen as like when shit hit the fan, Jenny is the one that you call, right? I wanted to be needed. I wanted to be noticed. And that didn't really get me anywhere good. It got me to a place where I was working several people's jobs on one person's paycheck. And ultimately it didn't save me from being laid off later on, you know, down the road. So I think like I've gone through many different iterations of who I am
00:25:40
Speaker
worker, the performative aspect of being a full time worker, and then this need to be stable by myself after getting laid off as a freelancer. And I'm now in a really interesting season of like,
00:25:54
Speaker
not tying my identity to my work really at all, which is very new. I'm practicing when people ask me who I am. I actually don't talk about my work first. I'm in a little bit of a transition period with shifting away from writing into more coaching, or at least just shifting away from journalism.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's just made me ask some pretty serious questions about like the unsteadiness of this industry and tying myself and my worth to that feels really risky to me. So yeah, but I think that question is also the answer is like it changes every six months maybe. No, it changes often in terms of how I see myself and how I see who I am in this industry.
00:26:40
Speaker
I feel like I'm kind of on the opposite end of Jenny's evolution, I think, because when I quit grad school to become a journalist, I knew what kind of journalist I wanted to be. I wanted to do magazine reporting. I wanted to travel for my reporting. And now I'm in year eight of freelancing and doing journalism full time. And I think usually that time is around
00:27:09
Speaker
early April where I'm like, oh my god, how have I been doing this for another year of my life? And I was really floored to be like, I am living that life that I set out to do when I became a journalist. And the very unexpected part is how much I want to run my freelance business as still a business. So
00:27:33
Speaker
I didn't expect to be running a podcast on the side that has turned into its own micro business to manage. Jenny and I have an entire team of people helping us at any given time. I personally have an assistant who helps with admin and research. I am thinking about ways to make my workflow a lot more efficient. I am working with an executive coach to make very micro changes in my business to make it more sustainable and so that I can continue earning money
00:28:03
Speaker
and not burnout. I think the really surprising thing for me growing as a business was realizing that I actually really like money. And I'm not scared of saying that. And I think a lot of people may deprive themselves of that in a way that doesn't actually serve them because we as a society have a lot of trouble talking about money. And I think wanting money is a symbol of greed.
00:28:30
Speaker
For me, it's living the life that I want. For me, it's eventually being able to retire. For me, it's being able to spend money on experiences with people who really matter to me. Having money is critical for me to do good creative work also. And so I'm coming up with all these kinds of sketches of how to keep that wagon going, even when I am on the road or spending a few months on an in-depth project.
00:28:58
Speaker
I think, you know, Brenda, when I think about this question, like one interesting way to look at it is how I've labeled myself on my website over the years. Like I constantly change my title on my website. Like when I started freelancing, I think I was like the six figure freelancer, right? I was like hustling.
00:29:16
Speaker
and then I was like the freelancer who was also a parent and then I was you know the coach and then I was I mean at one point I was like word wrangler for hire and then I would add journalist and then I would take it out right so I see this a lot with people like coach with like trying to design their website and they're just like they just get so stuck on what title to use and I really empathize with that because I think
00:29:42
Speaker
I just I changed my mind all the time. And so it would be funny to see a list probably of all of the titles that I've used over the years. But it's yeah, it's it is an ever moving target, I think.
00:29:55
Speaker
And speaking of like pivoting and changing, you know, titles and everything like Jenny, you put out, you know, this essentially a blog post essay a couple of weeks ago about why you're leaving journalism, which, you know, caused, you know, a dumpster fire of of reaction.
Leaving Journalism: A Personal Choice
00:30:13
Speaker
So just just walk us through that, you know, from the oh, my God, from yeah, from just like going public with this thing and then the fallout from it.
00:30:24
Speaker
Here's the origin story. So I wrote an essay about the Boston bombing four years ago. And the beginning of my blog post was actually part of that essay, but I'd never been able to figure out how to finish it. And when I knew the Boston bombing was the anniversary of it, it was coming up, it was in April, I started pitching around an idea to editors about what it was like to come of age as a journalist.
00:30:47
Speaker
around the time of a big tragedy like that and nobody wanted it. Nobody wanted the essay and I realized that's because the ending of the essay was like and then I realized there are many ways to be a journalist and like that was the end. So I was talking to my husband about this and I got super fired up and he was like
00:31:06
Speaker
You have not wanted to be a journalist for years. Like everybody who knows me is 100% not surprised that I don't want to do this. But he was like, you should write about it. And so I actually like couldn't fall asleep. So I wrote that entire essay in my phone at like two in the morning.
00:31:23
Speaker
It was like a rage essay, right? Like I was just like, I'm over this. I hate this. And then a few weeks ago, I started looking at it again, and I polished it up. And I thought like, Oh, what the hell just like, you know, I've been talking on the podcast about leaving journalism, I'll just post this thing. I guess like I forget how many people are watching Lou Dan and I now.
00:31:42
Speaker
Because I was like, oh, like 200 people will read this. I mean, like 20,000 people read it. And I was not expecting the responses, both good and bad. But I think they were really indicative of why people are so afraid to walk away from journalism. I mean, Wudan knows there was like
00:32:00
Speaker
this whole thread in a Facebook group where someone was suggesting that I should be shot. Like if I was in the military, that if I'd walked away, I would be shot. Like, well, that's not how the military works. But it was really interesting, both the blowback and the positive feedback I got, which was largely the main theme of it was like, wow, I feel this way too. And I think we are very apt to assign the difficulties of this industry to personal failings.
00:32:30
Speaker
And I spent a long time doing that, right? Like thinking that I was not trying hard enough, or maybe I hadn't found the right fit thing. And the reality is just that systemically, this is a really hard industry to make.
00:32:43
Speaker
living in and there are ways to do it if you love it. I mean, Wudana is a great example of making this work for her in a way that's sustainable, but my heart was never in it and that's just true. So, yeah, you know, it's a systemic issue. I hope I made people think however uncomfortable I made them feel. But yeah, it was an interesting Wudana.
00:33:08
Speaker
as someone who makes a significant part of your income from journalism, what was some of the conversation you had with Jenny about this, just maybe a back and forth you guys shared?
00:33:23
Speaker
Oh, it was mostly dunking on the predominantly older, whiter people in this industry from that Facebook group, suggesting that if Jenny were a soldier, she ought to be shot. And just pointing out all the logical fallacies.
00:33:43
Speaker
in their claims. And I thought the whole thing was bonkers. You know, there are so many ways to be a freelance writer, journalist, whatever you want to call yourself at whatever season of your life, it literally shouldn't matter. I
00:33:59
Speaker
think there are a lot of antiquated ways people think there are to be a journalist and that was evident I think in the blowback that Jenny received and I think probably through our podcast we are challenging that idea of
00:34:15
Speaker
how to do work that you find meaningful. It's no surprise that a lot of people find journalism meaningful for very, you know, impactful and sometimes self serving reasons which are also legitimate reasons. But really rethinking like what that means to them and just them and like, not the haters on the internet because they're always going to be haters. In a previous version of myself, I would have been really upset about all that blowback. And this time around, it was like,
00:34:45
Speaker
Why do you care so much about what choice I made? And that tells me a lot about what's going on in this industry and what can be so toxic, right? Like there are several versions of what journalism looks like. And the folks who were upset about what I wrote were mostly like what Dan said, older and white and had privileges and had a system that worked very differently from what we are dealing with right now. So most of the positive feedback came from
00:35:13
Speaker
you know, people of color and women who were like, absolutely, yes, like this is all absolutely true. And then, you know, I'm not sure I care about people doubting my experience because it was my experience. But Wudan is the best internet bodyguard. She just went.
00:35:29
Speaker
person by person and was like, you're wrong, this is incorrect. You know, Jenny is great. But she's right that I think, I think, you know, the the underlying theme of our podcast, and honestly, of my coaching business and of my life at present is like, let's ask questions and not assume that the way things are is the right way to do them. Or the way you think you should be doing them is the right way for you. Like, there are a billion options out there for how to build a sustainable life. And
00:35:59
Speaker
I don't know, just because something worked for you and you're older and white and had privilege doesn't mean it's possible for everybody else, right? So I hope if anybody got, you know, a message from the essay or from our podcast, it would be that like, let's think more deeply about what's possible.
00:36:15
Speaker
It's amazing what happens when someone, you know, a reporter or a journalist wants to walk away from it for a time. It's amazing how the failure gets pinned on the person leaving and not the industry that failed the reporter, right? It's like that's what underscores this whole thing is that it shouldn't be, or it's like, oh, this is why journalism is failing because, you know, people keep leaving. It's like, no, this industry almost does its best job to shovel you out of it.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I had several people of color approach me and say what you are experiencing is exactly what I experience every single day, which is people telling me that I can't take it, right? I can't stomach.
00:36:58
Speaker
what's going on here when the reality is, is that what's being asked of them is not something that anybody should stand up for. It feels a little bit like me saying, here, I'm in an abusive relationship and everyone just saying like, Oh, well, you should probably just stay there and deal with it. It was like a very odd reaction, right? But I think a really common one. And I'm thinking of like, there was a woman who posted saying,
00:37:23
Speaker
Wow, I took some of Jenny's workshops and I learned so much from her, so it's just a shock that she's leaving. And it's interesting that both things cannot be true, right? Like in her mind, because I think they can, like I can be a useful teacher and decide something is not for me, right? I can be good at journalism and decide it is not adding to my life in a positive way, but people struggle with the complexity of that, I think.
Transferable Skills from Journalism
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah, Roy Peter Clark just published an essay today on Poynter about this sort of toxic dialogue that happens when a journalist decides to, you know, pivot, maybe move into something else. And he called it like instead of, I don't know, he just called it public writing.
00:38:07
Speaker
if it which is kind of a great way of reframing it if you because the skills you learn as a journalist are so applicable to everything that we've been talking about you know you want to interview you want to be able to digest and communicate information so it can then be digestible for a reader in the end if that's not the tenets of
00:38:26
Speaker
skillful public writing that I don't know what is and you don't learn it any better than being a reporter. So if you just take that and apply it to some other ethical industry, then I don't really see the harm in that.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, the reality of all of this is I just wanted to look at everyone and be like, but what does it even mean to leave journalism? I mean, really? Because those lines are very gray. Will I still write reported personal essays? Probably. If there's an issue I care about very much, will I write a feature story? I might. Am I using my journalism skills to be an excellent coach and to work for brands?
00:39:08
Speaker
You know, so it feels really like a weird, there's not like in or out, you know?
00:39:15
Speaker
Exactly. Because what might happen is that you've just elected to not pursue it in the hustle sense of it. But what might happen is you might do like you stand like a reported essay that maybe someone elsewhere reads and like maybe a prominent magazine would come to you and be like, hey, if I give you all the time in the budget you want, do you want to pursue something that is, I don't know, more in line with pure journalism and you don't have to necessarily hustle for it. I'm sure you'd be open for at that point.
00:39:46
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. It's sort of like, I mean, what I meant in this essay and people took it in a million different ways, is just that like, I'm not hitching my wagon to this.
00:39:56
Speaker
horse anymore. Like maybe I would do some things that are related to journalism, but that for me, it actually doesn't feel like a sustainable long came, which has been true for a very long time. Like I said, the people who know me well in my personal life are zero surprised about this. They're like, yeah, of course you don't want to do this. But it's more about my overall career direction versus the tiny minutae of projects I may or may not take on.
00:40:23
Speaker
Well, well, we're Dan and then and then Jenny, of course. So bringing it back to your podcast in this this new season, you know, what are what are you most excited about as this season continues to roll out?
00:40:37
Speaker
I think just echoing what Jenny said earlier, which is making people feel a little less alone in their struggles, I think freelancers generally struggle to find community. I think Twitter is a toxic hellhole in a lot of ways, and especially
00:40:57
Speaker
And I acknowledge that I'm a part of the problem where everyone's just sharing their wins and not enough of their failures and or you know saying how many pitches they sent out and all of that
00:41:13
Speaker
It doesn't matter because it's out of context. It's out of context. I don't know about that person's life and how much money they're trying to make or what their values and priorities are. And, you know, if they're pitching if they're pitching schedule,
00:41:29
Speaker
And income matches the lifestyle they want to lead. Great. But that's not everyone's. And so, you know, I think, right, feeling less alone on the internet is kind of a general hope. I kind of went on a Twitter rant there.
00:41:45
Speaker
Twitter is terrible and I think running a successful freelance business, a successful to you freelance business requires intentionality and it's helpful to work with a coach or a friend or another colleague who knows your career really well who can mirror
00:42:02
Speaker
basically what you want and verbalize it. I think there's a lot of power in that. I think there's a lot of power drawing boundaries. It's really easy for freelancers to feel like there's not enough community. We are alone and we are powerless, especially given the power dynamic that usually comes into play between freelancers and clients. So I mean, all of that, honestly. Yeah, I'm thinking with Dan of in my coaching training, there's like a
00:42:29
Speaker
core principle, which is anyone's journey is as unique and valuable as any other journey. It's sort of the premise in which we begin our coaching sessions and it's true, right? There's no right or wrong. I would say I am most excited for, we have an episode coming up that will be just me and Mudan talking about inflection points, like common
00:42:52
Speaker
moments in your career, freelance career, when you might face challenges or need to change something and talking about what those look like and what you can do about them, how you can work through them. I think we all hit those. It's like your question about identity, Brenda, and we all hit these moments where we want to change course, but doing it alone is actually quite challenging.
00:43:14
Speaker
we're going to talk about what that looks like. So I'm excited for that episode because I think we both have lived many versions of that. So outlining a practical plan for dealing with those inflection points feels very useful to me.
00:43:27
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, I'm thrilled that I've had the privilege to be able to talk to both of you individually and this time to get the whole gang, the whole band together to jam. So this is a lot of fun. So I appreciate you guys for coming on the show to talk about this and to talk up the next season of your podcast. So thanks as always for the time. You bet. Yeah, thanks for having us, Brendan. Appreciate it.
00:44:01
Speaker
I love it, baby. That was, like I say, a toe-tapping good time. And this is the second time I'm recording this outro, because the first time through the intro and outro recordings, I forgot to select my good microphone. I was not paying attention, and so I am now re-recording, and it sucks that I have to do that. But I'm a pro, so I did it. If I were really your professional, I wouldn't even tell you I did it, but...
00:44:30
Speaker
You know. Anyway, great show. Loved it. Wudan and Jenny. Great. They've been on the show individually. Now they're on together. Aw. Thank you to West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing and Hippo Camp 2021 for the support. And to Okum. Couldn't have done it without you, Okum.
00:44:51
Speaker
I'm gonna keep beating the Patreon drum because that's what's going to take the show to the next level. Having the show be listener supported gives you ownership, gives you agency, helps pay writers in the audio magazine, helps me make a better product, helps me celebrate more CN efforts and build the community.
00:45:10
Speaker
And it's not like you get nothing in exchange. There's coaching, you can ask questions of guests, future guests, and what else? Transcripts, that's a big one. There are some heavy lifting, but they're good. It's nice if you want to read through some of these things. Anyway, go Window Shop, patreon.com slash CNFpod. And so I've been beating this depth of commitment drum, another drum.
00:45:40
Speaker
for a while now and it's so true how can we expect to get where we want to go if the ores are going in all different directions I don't think the Vikings could have made it from wherever they were going to wherever they were from if they were all rowing in different directions what are totally rewritten history
00:45:57
Speaker
I remember when I was nine years old my sister's boyfriend took me fishing and for some reason I didn't trust him and wouldn't turn my back to him in the canoe. Don't get me wrong I really liked him and really looked up to him because he played baseball and you know me I played baseball too. But being on the boat in the middle of the lake was a bridge too far man.
00:46:16
Speaker
He was rowing from the stern, and I was doing something resembling rowing in the bow. But my rowing was going in a different direction, on account of me thinking he was going to murder me in the middle of the lake. So we went nowhere. We laughed about it later, but this isn't a story about fishing, it's a story about riding. Thought you'd like that. Anyway, that's gonna do it, CNFers. Stay cool. Stay cool forever. See ya.