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From Benefits to Belonging: The Future of Work with O’Brien McMahon
13 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with O’Brien McMahon, Executive Vice President at Lockton and host of People Business. O’Brien shares his unique perspective on why every business is a people business—whether you’re running a global company or a neighborhood shop. From writing a children’s book inspired by leadership lessons, to helping hundreds of organizations shape total rewards strategies, O’Brien offers practical insights into compensation, benefits, communication, and culture. Together, they explore what employees truly value, how small businesses can compete for talent, and why great leadership always comes back to remembering the fundamentals of being human.
About O’Brien
O’Brien is an Executive Vice President with Lockton, helping HR and business leaders build better employee benefits, compensation, and retirement programs. He hosts “People Business w/ O’Brien McMahon”, a podcast exploring the human element of work. O’Brien has met with over 300 companies in the last decade and enjoys helping leaders make the most of themselves and the people around them.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
Well, again, everyone, welcome to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these fireside chats, I sit down with people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes.
00:00:16
Speaker
My guest today is O'Brien McMahon. O'Brien's an executive vice president with Lockton, helping ah HR and business leaders build better employee benefits, compensation, and retirement programs.
People Business Podcast Overview
00:00:29
Speaker
He hosts People Business with O'Brien McMahon, a podcast exploring the human element of work, O'Brien has met with over 300 companies in the last decade and enjoys helping leaders make the most of themselves and the people around them.
00:00:44
Speaker
Welcome to Behind the Build, O'Brien. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, it's good to be here, Curtis. It should be a fun conversation. I'm sure we have tons to talk about, but before we dive in, I have to know a couple of things.
Inspiration Behind "How You Become You"
00:00:58
Speaker
You wrote a children's book. There's a children's book out called How You Become You. That is true. I want to hear what was the inspiration behind this? How long ago did this come out?
00:01:12
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the book. Sure. So I've always enjoyed writing, um have dabbled, you know writing terrible songs growing up and ah bad poetry for girlfriends and I've taken some stabs at some longer form ah prose writing.
00:01:30
Speaker
But I have two young boys, six and four, and have always liked the thought of writing something for them, leaving something behind. and um At the same time, at work, I'm involved with ah our own leadership development program, which we've been running now for about five years.
00:01:50
Speaker
And the the guy who leads those sessions has a framework that we've all used to build a strong sense of self. He calleds calls it building a strong core.
00:02:02
Speaker
And i've I've done all those exercises, continue to work one-on-one with one of those coaches every week and have gotten a lot out of it. And just one night, I don't even remember what the impetus was, but I just started writing a poem,
00:02:15
Speaker
called How You Become You. And it was basically taking some of that and just distilling it down into a little bit more of an Oh, the places you'll go ah type format and and type melody. And it wound up coming out pretty quickly. And I sent it to the folks in the group and just said, Hey, you know, thought you might get a kick out of this.
00:02:34
Speaker
And they, a lot of them who had kids wound up reporting back that they had shared it over dinner with their families. And it had led to some like really deep conversations, both with young kids and with older high school kids. And so i was like, all right, well, that's pretty cool. And then the, um, the owner of the company was like, you got to publish this. Like, this is great. And so with his blessing, I took me about two years to kind of go through that journey and get it published. And it came out about a year and a half ago, but, um, it's, it's been awesome. I found an illustrator. She did a great job.
00:03:07
Speaker
Um, kind of metaphorically telling the story that I was telling in words through the images and ah the, you know, while it's self-published and, you know, sales, we're not setting any records with sales. The, ah the responses that I've gotten back from the people who have read it, you know, the several hundred that have read it, um it really been, been amazing and heartfelt. And so it's been a really fun project.
00:03:34
Speaker
That's amazing. i have I have two girls, seven and five, almost seven and five. So similar age gap. And this is when you start having a lot of those conversations. So yeah where where can I get it?
00:03:45
Speaker
You can get it anywhere online that you would buy books. Just How You Become You by O'Brien McMahon. um And it's really, I mean, it's it's meant to encourage people it's meant to encourage the kids and the adults. So the the real premise behind wanting to launch it was I was reading how, or, Oh, the places you'll go, which I think anyone with kids has read by Dr. Seuss. Um, it's, I think the most, still the most popular graduation gift out there.
00:04:12
Speaker
And I was reading it to my son when he was two and I was like, He has no idea what this is. But every time I read it, I get a little bit something more out of it. And I was like, why aren't there more books written towards adults?
00:04:24
Speaker
And then I opened the cover jacket and it turns out that that book was actually written as a college commencement speech. And then they turned it into a children's book. And it was the last book that he ever published. And I was like, it just clicked. Like all of a sudden I was thinking about Pixar and all these children's stories that are really just ah adult human lessons.
00:04:46
Speaker
yeah And I thought like, wouldn't it be fun to... do that and be able to offer that to to parents and offer it to kids and then be able to share that with my kids. And so um it's really just about trying as much as you can, experiencing as much as you can in the world, and then getting some clarity on what do you love, what do you believe, and and using that to guide how you live the rest of your life.
00:05:09
Speaker
That's amazing. um Very, very cool. Can't wait to get my hands on one and absolutely will be one of those people reaching out to you to tell you the kind of conversations that it led to in my in my house.
Origin of People Business Podcast
00:05:23
Speaker
um So you have a podcast. yeah You've been hosting and producing it for over five years. Tell me a little bit about People Business Podcast. Sure. So um when COVID hit, ah you know my my job, let me back up. my My day job is reaching out to and working with often the HR team at midsize, larger companies.
00:05:49
Speaker
And when COVID hit, that group of people in particular became the COVID response team at their companies. And they were underwater to say the least you know for months.
00:06:02
Speaker
And we were talking as a business development team ah around like, how do we reach this market in a meaningful way and without burning bridges? Because what we do is all about relationships. It's all about the long term. And so we want to be sensitive and during that time and and be supportive.
00:06:19
Speaker
I'm a huge fan of podcasts. I consume an unhealthy amount of hours of podcasts every week. And I love shows where you get a full perspective. you know It's longer form, so you get a ah real perspective on somebody's expertise or lived experience or something like that.
00:06:35
Speaker
And i started, somebody said, well, have you ever thought about podcasting? And I had actually had a friend ask me years before if I wanted to do a podcast, but it was just like, I didn't need another hobby at that time, but this seemed like ah maybe a different scenario. And so I wrote down on a whiteboard one night, all the things that I thought my market that I serve would be interested in. And it was all the people strategy, hr type stuff.
00:07:02
Speaker
And then I wrote down on the other side, all the things that I'm really interested in, which is personal development, achievement, psychology, ah behavior, science, all that kind of stuff. And I wrote,
00:07:13
Speaker
business on one side and people on the other. And I literally the next morning, ah this only happened the one time, I popped out of bed at four in the morning and was like, people business. It's not business people. It's people business. Every business is a people business. I don't have to select from this list. I can just do the whole whiteboard and that becomes the show.
00:07:34
Speaker
And so I went out and I found a couple of friends who had some really relevant content at that time for that market, you know that early COVID market. And piloted the episodes. And I actually have a production background from college. i wrote and directed and edited some short films for fun.
00:07:50
Speaker
ah None that you will ever see or will ever see the end of day, but it was a good experience. And I i wanted building the skill set. So I was actually able to cut together a professional sounding show and we launched it and those episodes went well and I scrambled to get more. And we've just been doing it for five years, 215-ish episodes while we're talking now.
00:08:11
Speaker
wow I love that. And you know what? I mean, you nailed it. Every business is a people business and, um, and it doesn't matter what you're doing, even if you're building B2B SaaS, right. Or if you are the ice cream shop down the street, or an education, you know, daycare, you're in the people business.
00:08:32
Speaker
Um, yeah so I think that that's a really powerful premise. Well, and it's interesting now, too, because i could hear somebody listening to this and saying, well, not for long, you know, with the rise of a i But I i think...
00:08:48
Speaker
I think every business is a people business still. And I think every person is in business. Everybody needs to support themselves. Even if you're going to work for someone else, like you are still, you're a business of one, you are going out and providing your services and somebody's paying you income for that.
00:09:06
Speaker
And even with h with ai that dynamic's not going to change. We're all going to need to still fund our lives and lifestyles and the vision for the future that we have. and so I think that these lessons around how to engage with people, well, first of all, how to engage with yourself, improve who you are, improve the quality of your thinking, the quality of your actions, improve then your interactions with other people, and then have the skillset to organize some people and lead them and communicate with them and try to achieve something together. I mean, those skills are just not going to go away, whether or
00:09:43
Speaker
takes away 50% of the jobs or not. It's still gonna be valuable with people going out and trying to earn an income for themselves. Right, well, people aren't going away and we're all consumers.
00:09:54
Speaker
right so i mean I had a really interesting conversation with another entrepreneur last week discussing some similarities between all human beings and just the idea of startups. right A human being, your life is very much like a startup. right Even when we're young and we're growing and we're in search of validation, right for good or for bad, right getting that feedback, that early feedback,
00:10:19
Speaker
is so important, right? It helps you better understand who you are what your core competencies are, right? Just like a startup, right? And when a startup realizes where they're getting certain validation, you may go in those directions. You may choose to pivot and go in a different direction, right? Where, you know, you can either build something in your life that's more meaningful or something more driven towards whatever kind of goals that you're, you know, that you're seeking. You eventually find yourself in this maturation phase, and you know, et cetera. And so there are a lot of similarities.
00:10:51
Speaker
The jobs may go, they might change. The reality is they're more likely going to change rather than go. i mean, people are still going to be employed for a variety of different things. um But people aren't going anywhere.
00:11:03
Speaker
and And we are consumers and we do interact with each other and we do collaborate with each other, whether it's personal or professional. And so, you know, that's, you know, it's astute, right? So give me some advice, any tips or tricks that you have on podcasting, number one.
00:11:23
Speaker
my My only thing with podcasting is try to do something you're interested in and try to do something that is valuable to other people. I think the episodes that I've done that resonate the most are ones where I'm just interested.
00:11:40
Speaker
And i think that that comes through and the get, you know, the times when guests sort of compliment me for having created a fun experience for them, it's because I generally want them on the show and I'm excited about it. and I think people can feel that. So I, uh, I mean, I only know how my one show is put together, but, um, I have heard that not every host does that, but, uh,
00:12:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think people will forgive you for some audio quality. i think they'll forgive you for some rambling if you are having interesting conversations that are adding value or helping people think differently ah or or better.
00:12:17
Speaker
you know i think that's all you can ask for. Well, good advice. um Definitely worked hard to get you here. So very interested in all the things we're going to get to talk
Lockton's Operations and Impact
00:12:27
Speaker
about. So you've had a long and really impressive career LockedIn.
00:12:31
Speaker
um I'd love to know more about that. First off, maybe we can tell everybody here, what is LockedIn? What does the organization do Sure. So we're an insurance broker ah you know at its most simple level.
00:12:44
Speaker
There are two sides to our business. There's the commercial insurance side, which is you know any insurance a company would need to buy. And then there's the total reward side, which is where I've spent my 16 years at Lockton.
00:12:56
Speaker
um And that is building all the different total rewards programs for companies. So ah the employee benefits program, the retirement program, the compensation programs that you're putting in place.
00:13:10
Speaker
your leave policies, all that kind of stuff, helping manage all of that. um The thing that I really enjoy about that work is one, it's the generally the most expensive part of a business, right? Their their largest cost almost always is on compensation and benefits.
00:13:30
Speaker
Those are number one and number two. So you're dealing with something that has real significant financial impact. And on the other hand, it it It touches every single one of your employees. So it is real like emotional, cultural impact.
00:13:44
Speaker
And, you know, people talk about comp and they talk about their benefits all the time. You see it in the news all the time. And so being able to influence those things for a company, help them think about the type of employer they want to be, the type of experience they want to give people, um the way they want people to feel working for them, that what they want that partnership to be like or not be like.
00:14:08
Speaker
oh Right. you know I think that's that's the fun of what I do and what we do is being able to to go beyond just like what's your copay or what's your LTIP percentages across different structures. like It's like, what are we trying to achieve? How do we want to make people feel?
00:14:27
Speaker
And then you know building in that direction. I love that. And I love the idea of starting with, you know, what we want people to feel, right? um i think it can be really impactful. I'd love to hear, tell me about the kind of organizations that Lockton works with. um You know, when do they when do they come to you? What are the problems and challenges that these folks at Lockton are obsessed with solving for them?
00:14:51
Speaker
can Sure. So our clients are what we would call middle market, ah upper middle market. So we're not generally going after the the big jumbos. We have some large employers, but ah and we're not going after the really small. We can do that work. But again, it's like,
00:15:08
Speaker
we have some partners that we work with who do that work. It's it's the middle market. It's a business that has gotten more complex. it's It's grown to a place where there's a lot of complexity, but generally they are still understaffed. They've leaned teams and they need somebody who's going to bring a bunch of resources, but then make it really easy to access those resources and understand what to do with it. And and that's where we try to stand out and and differentiate. As far as why our clients come to us, um it is really easy in the work that we're doing because we are working with our clients and our competitors are working with their clients um you know on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. it's really easy to fall stale.
00:15:53
Speaker
you kind of You know what the other person's preferences are. You know what the company is going to say yes or no to. You've vetted a lot of options maybe in your first year or two working together. And it you just kind of fall into a ah groove.
00:16:06
Speaker
I think one of the things that we have done um is our process, we built a process and we built incentives to keep it fresh.
00:16:17
Speaker
And so I think on day one, how do we differentiate from our our competitors? You know, i think we differentiate decently well. I think, I think we're a little bit better in a lot of ways.
00:16:28
Speaker
I think we really differentiate over time though. And you know, it's hard to sell that upfront, but I think over time, the incentives we have in place, the process that we have in place just forces us to look and just ask the question, like, how do we get a little bit better today? How do we get a little bit better today? And if you ask that question consistently, you get a lot better over time.
00:16:48
Speaker
You get a lot better over time.
Role as EVP at Lockton
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. um So what does your role look like as as EVP? Tell me a little bit about how you got there. Yeah. so um you know don't let the title fool you. and I'm still building ah you know my book of business and clients. I'm out talking to clients and prospective clients every day.
00:17:07
Speaker
um had a call with both of those before this. you know We were trying to pitch a new piece of business and was talking to a client who's having some turnover. um So really, that's the job. I think as you move on in the organization within Lockton, though, there are opportunities to you know, demonstrate leadership and and step up. And so most most recently I was invited onto our Midwest executive committee. So in addition to the day-to-day work that I'm doing and for no additional compensation, um I have the, the, I think it's privileged to, you know, be involved in the leadership decisions, how we're making investments in the business and in our people and, um you know, where we're going to head in the future. So that's, that's kind of my fun new challenge.
00:17:53
Speaker
I like that. I mean, and sometimes that challenge, you know, getting to be part of that is, you know, and the confidence. I mean, you know, the compensation sort of, you know, getting, getting that opportunity is yeah is unique and it's kind of special and, um, it's rewarding in a different way, right? Not and yeah necessarily, but in being part of growing something and building something, right. And being part of, for sure. Yeah. And and the more art I mentioned incentives, I think one of the things that locked in that Jack locked in, who founded our company passed away a number of years ago now, but, um,
00:18:26
Speaker
I think one thing that he got right ah was the incentives in the model. And I think in a lot of B2B sales worlds, it can be really dog eat dog. There can be a lot of internal competition.
00:18:40
Speaker
You getting a deal means I don't get a deal. It's money in your pocket. is money out of my pocket. there's like i've I've worked in some places before Lockton where it had that environment. And i one of the things I really value about where I work now is that the incentives are aligned so that when we all do well, we all do well.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah. You know, you, you have a lot of expertise when it comes to total reward strategies, right? What employees want and need, you know, touching on this incentives, hundred percent agree with what you're saying.
00:19:13
Speaker
um And a lot of keys to, to, to things like workplace happiness, to employee satisfaction, you know, you seem really passionate, you know, I can feel that it's, it's, it's palpable. where did this passion come from? Uh, I'm just a dork.
00:19:32
Speaker
I did not see that coming. Um, I, uh, no, I mean, well, I mean, yes, I am, I think, but, um, I don't know. I, I just, I like building things.
00:19:44
Speaker
I like, learning and I like growing and I like becoming better and more capable in the world. And I think sales is just a great proving ground for that. I mean, I've been doing this 16 years and the other day,
00:20:02
Speaker
you know, had to walk myself back off a cliff again when we missed another deal that we were going after that we were excited about. And I laid my whole process out on a whiteboard and I found three different areas to focus on where we can improve. And it's like, you know, it's just every day there's the opportunity to do that. So one, I like that. And then two, I like coaching other people. I like helping people. i like seeing people reach their potential. I was, uh, I did ah a couple of years as a part-time CrossFit coach on the side. And I just love like watching people do things that they didn't realize they were capable of.
00:20:40
Speaker
And I think in a service business like we are, where we're affecting people and we're affecting dollars, the way that I described before, i think there's really an opportunity to help and to coach and to help our clients see around corners in ways that they just aren't capable because they don't have the experience or the, you know, the, um, the reps to the, in the way that we do. So I think that that's all, all fun.
00:21:06
Speaker
I feel like and onces once you get a taste of that, right, I think it just makes you want it even more. Before I pivot to a different topic, I wanted to ask you something that I think some of our audience might be you know might be wondering. A lot of our viewers are small business owners, leaders in young, growing organizations.
Understanding Total Rewards
00:21:23
Speaker
When we talk about total rewards, we're I think oftentimes this is a term that many are unfamiliar with, really kind of what that encompasses or what it means exactly. Tell us a little bit about what does total rewards mean?
00:21:36
Speaker
Why is it important to an organization and their workforce? Yeah. At the simplest level, you can think about all the cash compensation that you provide to your employees. So are you you know the actual cash you pay them, any bonuses ah that you might give them or incentive financial incentives, ah what you contribute to their benefits, what you contribute to their 401k, the types of leave policies and vacation policies you put in place that you're going to pay people for when they're not working.
00:22:04
Speaker
Like all of that would fall into total rewards. Some people will add non-cash compensation. They'll add training and development and mentorship in there. You can if you want to. I think it starts to muddy it a little bit. I think just what is the company paying for that provides value to you? And and I think Comp, benefits, retirement, and leave are kind of the big four in that market.
00:22:32
Speaker
Okay. So going to take a turn into some of the challenges that you see in business today. You talk with a ton of business leaders. um What are some of the people problems that you see in many organizations that create roadblocks for, I think, certain initiatives or overall organizational goals? Yeah.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah.
Challenges in Corporate Communication
00:22:53
Speaker
So, I mean, i I hear some funny stories out there with different people problems that they're facing. the The one that I think is just a trip right now and one that I've heard a lot of HR people trying to navigate is employees who are working multiple full-time jobs and trying who are like kind of trying to you know dip on both sides here and and um get away with that and it becomes unproductive.
00:23:25
Speaker
I think there's a really interesting conversation. with I'm not the one to unpack this, but I think there's a really interesting conversation to if you hire somebody and they can do most of the job that you're asking them to do with AI and that frees up their time to go do other things and get paid in other ways, like is that wrong or is that just capitalism and genius on their part. You know, like I want to unpack this because this could turn into a whole other episode. this again I mean, I'm happy to talk about it, but I'm not an expert in it in in any way, shape or form. I think it's an interesting conversation. And I think, in fact, this is where a lot of articles that you might read are going around.
00:24:07
Speaker
Are we just going to turn into I read one last week, actually, on is white collar the new gig economy? um And so there's a whole interesting thing there. What I will say as far as the work that I do on a general basis, one of the biggest problems that I see companies dealing with is how they communicate to their people.
00:24:28
Speaker
I don't think there is a company I have talked to, whether it's a client or a a prospect out there in the market. this within the last 12 months that has not in some way brought up the fact that they are struggling to communicate with their people.
00:24:44
Speaker
You, it's, you know, our people don't understand the value of what we're offering them. They don't understand how to use it. Um, we send them a bunch of things and they don't read them and then they come to us later with questions, but we had clearly sent that information multiple times.
00:25:00
Speaker
It's just the way that companies are communicating with employees seems to be broken. And I think it's just, My take on it is i think the world has evolved in how we are communicating and and how we are consuming information.
00:25:20
Speaker
And corporate communications are largely doing the same things they did in the early 2000s, maybe even in the late 90s. They're just doing more of it, or maybe it looks slicker or more modern.
00:25:32
Speaker
But the actual channels that they're communicating through, the way that they're reaching out to employees has largely not changed in the last 20 years. Wow.
00:25:43
Speaker
And that's kind of crazy to think, you know, despite all the advancement, you know, and Yeah. Just that's not to say things don't look better, right. They can look better there. You know, we're doing, you know, it's an emails or Slack, you know, maybe it's in Slack now where it was an email before and it was in print before that, but it's like, it's often still the same messages.
00:26:02
Speaker
It's often just, we're going to pump more of it or we're going to make it look sharper, but I don't see new mediums embraced as much. I don't see new modes of communication or, um,
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't necessarily blame communications people internally or I don't blame HR people internally because i don't think...
00:26:29
Speaker
like HR is asked to have so many skill sets. I think we're all asked to have so many skill sets today. and Marketing and communications is its own skill set. um It happens to be something that I studied in college, so I was a communications major. I also like writing. I'm also a salesperson. so like I've spent a lot of time thinking about communications, but most of my clients have not.
00:26:50
Speaker
um Even a lot of our team members have not. um and so I think it's a natural problem, but I think it's one that companies are going to have to embrace and they're going to have to get a little bit uncomfortable trying some new things.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Going back to one of the things we were talking about, about the total rewards, you know, I know aligning compensation and benefit benefits and all the the total rewards between the the workforce and employers can be a ah big ah big problem. Sometimes it's a sticky point, right? What what is it that team members...
00:27:24
Speaker
really want from organizations that they work for? What have you heard? What do you see, you know, when you're communicating with a lot of these leaders? um What priorities do the workforce have when they think about these things?
00:27:37
Speaker
Yeah. So it's easy to think that more is always better. Right. And in some ways, sure it is, you know,
00:27:48
Speaker
if the The original study around people's happiness people not getting any happier above $75,000 a year, like that's kind of been disproven.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yes, there's a there's a huge increase in happiness up to now it's I think about $95,000 in income. But your happiness doesn't stop above that mark. like Your happiness continues to go up after that point.
00:28:15
Speaker
It's just that the next dollar earns just a little bit less happiness than the dollar before it. And so there's diminishing returns. But it still is an upward trend. And so there is an element of, yeah, you pay people more, they live better lives, their financial ah stresses go away, and that improves happiness. And you know so there is a little bit of an element to that.
00:28:36
Speaker
But i I like to just distill it down too to to some basic principles and just think, like what do people actually want out of their compensation? What they want is to feel appreciated.
00:28:48
Speaker
What they want is to feel recognized compared to their peer group. so and And then the third thing is they want to be able to at least be on a trajectory toward the lifestyle that they have in their head.
00:29:05
Speaker
We all have some image in our head of what we want our lives to be down the road. And if we are not earning on that path, there's some cognitive pain there and we're much more likely to go try to find another job or, you know, move around and shift to, to go try to find that.
00:29:21
Speaker
And so i think if you can recognize people for their service and, and pay them compared to market, make sure that they feel like they're getting a good deal compared to their peers because we're comparison animals. Like I, it's the whole keeping up with the Joneses is a real thing. It's how we're programmed because,
00:29:43
Speaker
um Our happiness or our pick any emotion is often just a reflection of how it compares to what other people are experiencing or having, um which is scary and you got to do some like processing to get out of that. but ah moat I mean, that's how we're operating. that's That's the operating system we have. And so making sure that you don't get too out of whack with that within your workforce.
00:30:07
Speaker
And then, yeah, paying people at least some amount and escalating their pay at some rate to which they feel like they can achieve their hopes and dreams. On the benefit side, it's do I feel protected?
00:30:19
Speaker
can i Can I get sick? Can my family get sick or injured and go through these really difficult times without having a horrible experience outside of whatever the illness or pain is. like can Is the system easy to use?
00:30:36
Speaker
Can I get the help I need? Can it not break the bank? Even if I have to pay something, can it can it not devastate me financially? do i Do I feel safe and secure and protected?
00:30:47
Speaker
And then I think retirement plans are often an extension of that. Do I feel like my future is secure? If I'm on a path to some vision of what my life is going to be, does that path extend all the way to the grave?
00:31:00
Speaker
And, or is there some anxiety at the end of my life? And then leave, which is the fourth one is, can I actually get out and enjoy it? Can I, do I have time to connect with myself, to connect with my friends, with my family? Can I, can I enjoy this life that I'm working so hard to build?
00:31:16
Speaker
And I think if you remember those elements Maybe you can make some adjustments to your programs to sort of align with those things. Maybe you just communicate it differently. um But ultimately, we are emotional animals. We're storytelling animals. And if you can tell the story or help people see the story in what you're offering, oftentimes that's what's needed more than, hey, give me another 10 cents an hour.
Importance of Recognition and Benefits
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah. um I think that's a really interesting takeaway also, you know, and and I don't hear a lot of people um mentioning or at least acknowledging the fact that I think you're right. We are, you know, instinctively, we compare ourselves.
00:32:02
Speaker
um You know, it's, we talk a lot about feeling valued, right. As a, as a culture and a community, we we talk a lot about work life balance and, you know, feeling protected, being appreciated by the organization that we work with. But yeah,
00:32:19
Speaker
seldomly do you hear leaders talking about the fact that, yeah, you know, we we are by default, um you know, that's kind of how we're wired to to sort of compare ourselves. That's what, you know, market rate is. It's the rate at which, right, our peers are being paid or compensated, you know, for the same job and, ah you know, other other organizations. So I think that pointing that out, highlighting it, at least bringing it to our attention is actually really important because we have to acknowledge that.
00:32:45
Speaker
yeah i Yeah. So I had a podcast guest who's become a friend. His name is Jason Lauritsen, great consultant, um yeah HR consultant and and coach. And he made the comment that I really like, which is companies often...
00:33:02
Speaker
look to employees in contractual terms, like how much are we going to pay? but How often do we want you to show up? What are the what are the transactional terms of this agreement?
00:33:14
Speaker
But employees are joining an employer with a relationship lens. They want to know how they're going to feel working there. They want to know the story that they get to tell themselves by doing this job. are they built What skillset are they building? We all want to build mastery in something.
00:33:31
Speaker
That's another part of humanity. And so who are they becoming by working there? that's That's how employees are thinking about it. And again, back to communications, I think if you can if you can get out of the contractual mindset, mean, you got to do all the contractual stuff and figure all the legalese out.
00:33:53
Speaker
But if you when you're communicating with people, if you can do it through a relationship lens, you'd be much more impactful. And yeah honestly, it kind of leads me into this next sort of thought is that I think that that's a blind spot for leaders, right? You know, understanding what your workers want, ah you know, and, you know, what they expect, what you expect from them.
00:34:16
Speaker
But you're right, employers think of it very you know in a very transactional way. Yeah. Well, and you and I are just as guilty of this too, I'm sure. like this is This is another principle that applies to presentations, where often presentations are created with an analytical lens.
00:34:35
Speaker
Here's the facts. Here's the things you need to know. But the people who are sitting listening to the presentation, they're listening to the story. they're They are processing in their head, what does this mean for me? What does this allow me to do?
00:34:48
Speaker
Do I feel okay or not? What is this going to help me become? And often presentations fall flat because we're not connecting to the stories or helping people build the stories that they're telling in their head. And so it's just It's natural. When we are trying to communicate something to others, we often distill it down to just some quantitative data.
00:35:11
Speaker
But when we are on the other side of the table, we are consuming it qualitatively. And so i think it's a good thing for all of us to keep in mind all the time when we are trying to improve our interactions or communicate something or ah or influence some type of thinking or behavior.
00:35:30
Speaker
How... How well are just, you know, generally speaking, I mean, how well are employers meeting, um, you know, their employees wants and and needs with these total rewards packages? If they even do, how do employers even gauge this? How do they know?
00:35:50
Speaker
i I think most are doing okay. I don't think this is something that's totally broken. um, I think most employers are getting a lot of what they need from their employees.
00:36:02
Speaker
I think employers often actually put more pressure on themselves and can be doing themselves a disturb a disservice because because they're trying to add a bunch of new things. They want to make make it feel new and fresh.
00:36:16
Speaker
In reality, I think if a company is providing a core set of benefits that takes care of 90% of a person's needs, your medical, your dental, a life insurance policy, disability, even though that's super undervalued, disability policies are really important.
00:36:34
Speaker
um Just those basics, and you you offer them at a decent level, and then you're paying people fairly or a little bit above market, like that's really what people want.
00:36:45
Speaker
And then they want to engage with all of the other elements. there's a So I created a couple of years ago what I call the hierarchy of employee needs. And the base level is rewards. I do think if you're not meeting at least a base level of needs when it comes to the rewards you're offering, people will leave.
00:37:04
Speaker
But once you're satisfying just like a basic level, just like in Maslow's hierarchy with your physiological needs, like we need to be able to eat, we need to be able to sleep safely, we need to be able to go to the bathroom, you know, like do our basic physiological needs.
00:37:22
Speaker
We don't need the best food. We don't need a gold toilet. We don't need, you know, like, that like luxury everything. Sure, that stuff's nice, but that like most people, if you just give them a basic level of like decent food, clean water,
00:37:37
Speaker
ah a decent dwelling, like they're good. And then what they want is connection and community and ah want to be building skills in something and and contributing to the world.
00:37:52
Speaker
That's what we want. And work is kind of the same. Like once you give people a basic element, then focus on the humanity of the workplace. Focus on Improving your leaders. Leadership is the next rung because every problem is a leadership problem.
00:38:05
Speaker
Every decision that's made, the way people feel is all going to be based on the leaders and the environment that they create. Above that, i i stole directly from Daniel Pink's book, Drive.
00:38:17
Speaker
like The motivators, what really motivates people is building mastery, having autonomy, and and connectedness, being connected to the people around them, being connected to the mission, you know something greater than themselves. So i think I don't think companies are broken in the way that they're doing their rewards.
00:38:35
Speaker
I think you could actually clean it up and simplify it in a lot of cases and improve the experience of it, and then focus on on those other elements of humanity. so for So for a small bit, now I know you work mostly with mid-market and some a little larger.
00:38:50
Speaker
What about small business? What about a small business or a young organization? How do they start creating a total rewards package and and take actions to build a happy, healthy community with satisfied employees? and And one of the reasons that I ask is that oftentimes it's the small business that might suffer disproportionately from the turnover, right? I mean, one person leaves out of a team of 10, right? That's 10% of your workforce or a team of 20, right? That's 5%, right? one One person leaves out of a team and of 1,000,
00:39:18
Speaker
thousand Right? So you you see that they might, you know, small businesses might be suffering disproportionately, but might want to create this community that you're talking about. Might want to have a package like this that incentivizes their people. So what are some steps that they can take?
00:39:33
Speaker
Again, i i don't think you need to try to compete with Google or Goldman. You know, you don't need to be that as a small business. I think the benefit that you have as a small business is you have the ability to really connect with your people.
00:39:46
Speaker
and and be transparent and have them understand what it means to work there and the mission that you have in front of you. you know There's a lot of purpose that goes into these small businesses.
00:39:57
Speaker
And so I think you lean into that stuff and then you do as much as you can. you know You start with compensation and you provide as much compensation as you can for your people and you're just transparent about where those limitations are.
00:40:11
Speaker
And then you have a solid medical plan. And when you can ad a dental plan and when you can add some disability insurance you know or offer it on a voluntary basis if you can't pay for it as an employer. you know There's a lot of benefits that you could offer voluntarily.
00:40:27
Speaker
Maybe you get one or two people who take it, but it's still you're still providing something to those people. so i think i I do think there are ways that you can build into this know while leaning into the advantages that you do have.
00:40:42
Speaker
And what would you say, you know, if if you were advising a ah so smaller organization, what are the indicators that show the leaders whether or not they have the happy workplace or that they're doing it right?
00:40:55
Speaker
I think you just ask your people. Yeah. You know, I don't think there needs to be some big mystery, especially in ah a small employer. You know, hey, you know, how are you how are you feeling? You know, what are you thinking?
00:41:10
Speaker
what are you What else are you seeing out there? um you know Hey, i i I would love to be able to pay you guys more, but we can't. But here's the path I have, and if we can hit these marks, you know then this is what I'll be able to offer you, you know setting some vision for them in the future.
00:41:27
Speaker
And then you know i think what indicates a good culture in a small business is the same as what indicates a good culture in a big business, or it's what indicates a good culture in your family. like Is there open, honest, transparent communication happening?
00:41:44
Speaker
Do people feel connected to each other? are they willing to share with each other and lean on each other? Are they willing to ask for help, admit that they don't know something? Are they willing to do extra work for their colleagues?
00:41:55
Speaker
um you know, are they evangelical about what you're doing? Do they feel connected to the mission? Like all that stuff applies to you and your spouse or you and your family. And it applies to your small business and it applies to your larger department. It applies to your global enterprise. like That's the one thing about doing the podcast that I've really come to appreciate. And I kind of always lean this way, but I just see it all the time that the principles of what it means to be a human being, to be on a team, like they're the same.
00:42:31
Speaker
Like anytime you are trying to do something to improve yourself, the principles are the same. Anytime you come together with another person or group of people and are trying to function well, the principles are the same.
00:42:44
Speaker
You know, it's just how they get expressed. I like that. Um, actually a, a lot. Um, you know, I'm kind of curious, like you, you made a mention you about something sort of similar, but are there Are there metrics that leaders should be watching, people-related metrics? you know Are there certain pieces of data that could be helpful for leaders when it comes to supporting their people?
00:43:10
Speaker
What are they, and do you actually think business leaders are monitoring them? I'm going to admit that I'm not a people analytics person. um I think that there are some great companies and experts out there who have some really insightful stuff. Hey, if you see...
00:43:28
Speaker
this type of thing, you know, on somebody's calendar, they're more likely to turn over in the next six months. Like I've, I've, I've talked to some of those people. I know those things are out there. i though I'd be a little over my skis if I, if I took a stab at that.
00:43:43
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. Outside of the basics. I mean, obviously if like, if people are turning over, if people are complaining about a manager, if you know, if there are, if the, uh, if the lights are flashing and the sirens are going off,
00:43:56
Speaker
address it. Like, listen. I think that's the big thing is just listen. Like there's so much power to paying attention to what your people are saying and feeling and how they're expressing themselves. And it's easy to skim over that stuff.
00:44:12
Speaker
Give me some ideas of some people related insights or maybe cultural competency that that, you know, tomorrow's business leaders, for example, will have to develop in order to
Future Leadership Needs
00:44:23
Speaker
thrive. You've mentioned a lot of really interesting things that you know, are contributors to make, you know, good cultures, right. And and good relationships between, um you know, I think leadership and and other members of the organization, but I'm interested to hear how you might see this developing over time. And what are some of the things that, that, you know, tomorrow's leaders are going to have to develop in order to get there.
00:44:49
Speaker
So my half non-answer to this you i think I think leaders need to remember that humans are humans.
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I've read and enjoyed Marcus Aurelius's meditations. Uh, if you've tried it and you've read it and you are like, what is this? This is terrible. You probably read a bad translation. There's a newer, I think the newest translation is by a professor out of the university of Virginia. It's, I don't know, maybe 15 years old now. It's like a black and red cover.
00:45:23
Speaker
Try that one. If you still don't like it, fine. I'll give that to you. But, um, When you read that and you think about the fact that it was it was the private diary of probably the most powerful man in the world at the time, and he's dealing with the same bullshit.
00:45:43
Speaker
that you and i are dealing with every day both internally and externally he's dealing with his own doubts his own insecurity his own ego um he's dealing with people who are trying to take him down political opponents um you know it's it's It's amazing that the most powerful man in the world 2000 years ago and little old me today are dealing with almost the same thing when we roll out of bed in the morning.
00:46:11
Speaker
And we our brains are working the same way. like And just because AI comes around or just because the next thing comes around does not mean that human beings are going to change. So on the one hand, I say,
00:46:23
Speaker
Get clarity on what it means to be a human being and what human beings want from their experience with you and with your company. then Pay attention to what is going on today and where the world is going tactically so that you can express those fundamental principles in a modern way that resonates. So AI is not going to change the fact that we all want to be building mastery and we all want autonomy and any of that, but it's going to give us new ways to do that.
00:47:00
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Communications back to what I talked about companies struggling with right now, like the way we want to be communicated to the stories we want to tell, the messages we want to be receiving, the way we want to feel about those communications is the same as it's always been.
00:47:15
Speaker
But now we respond more to short form video than we do to at home mailers. And so i think paying attention to the principles and if you get clarity on the principles, then you can swap in tactics and adjust your tactics over time to be more fresh and modern.
00:47:33
Speaker
Totally agree with that. You know, people aren't going away. um People's needs are not going to go away. Their wants and wishes also are not going to go away. And frankly, they may not change that much, right? Just like our hierarchy of needs.
00:47:48
Speaker
I think it's just the different mechanisms that we have at our fingers at our fingertips to be able to, you know, press on um and make some of those things happen are going to evolve like dramatically.
00:47:59
Speaker
and so um so I think that that's actually really great advice. Especially if you've got a good thing going. like you can You can take your great culture. Lockton, I think, has done a great job of this. i We talk all the time about what it means to work at Lockton and what Lockton stands for. and Jack, as I said, passed away 20-something years ago.
00:48:23
Speaker
but His commandments are in every office still. There are videos of him playing all over the country, talking about all over the world, talking about what it means to work at Locked and the opportunity that we have.
00:48:34
Speaker
And now the way that we express that has changed and modernized. We were not doing video clips in the office when I started 16 years ago. you know It was coming out in different formats.
00:48:47
Speaker
But the messaging is the same. It's evolved, but we've we've stayed true to who we are and what the business stands for. And I think that one, kudos to the Lockton family for doing that. But two, I think it's a really smart business decision Because everybody stays really, really grounded.
00:49:02
Speaker
And yet we all get that dopamine hit or or that that those good vibes from the modern take on it. We get the novel the novelty we're looking for, but it's rooted in something really foundational.
00:49:16
Speaker
um Which also kind of answers that that next sort of you know leading question on how do you see your own work evolving sort of in line with this? and i think you just kind of really described how how it's evolved.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah. Or at least with the organization and more than likely it's going to, it's going to continue in that direction. Yeah. Well, and I think what we do, you know, there's the strategy element to it and then there's a service element to it.
00:49:42
Speaker
And I think service is going to make a comeback and in in an age of AI and technology. I think service is going to continue to have a high value, um,
00:49:54
Speaker
yeah And so i do I do think there's going to be a place for it, even if the the tactics of how we're engaged with our clients change over the next 10 years. A hundred percent. hundred percent agree.
Availability of O'Brien's Work
00:50:03
Speaker
um O'Brien, How You Become You, children's book that you can get anywhere you can get books on the internet. um I will be getting my copy today. And The People Business is podcast, right? to um Tell us where we can find that. How often you release new episodes before we wrap up.
00:50:25
Speaker
Yeah. So um we are currently releasing every other week. um We did weekly for about the first four and a half years, but ah have switched to bi-weekly now. um You can find it anywhere. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, anywhere you get your podcasts.
00:50:43
Speaker
Awesome. I really appreciate you being here, O'Brien. You have pretty amazing insights. Everybody needs to listen to this and I hope that they get to check that out as well. um So thanks for being here.
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate it. And ah this helps me catalyze my own thinking. So it's it's valuable for me to actually have to say this stuff out loud and make sure i at least sound like i know what i'm talking about.
00:51:06
Speaker
Love it. Well, appreciate y'all tuning in to Mustard Hub Voices behind the build. Please like and share this episode. Be sure to subscribe while you're at it. Drop by mustardhub.com to learn how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. Until next time.