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Episode 300: Gloria Liu
211 Plays3 years ago
Come find the meaning of life with Gloria Liu (@thats_my_line) as we dig into her work for Outside Magazine about burnout, among other topics.
Social: @CNFPod
Sponsor: West Virg. Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Show notes/newsletter: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
The Role of a Writing Coach
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, CNFers, is that time of year? Is it really still that time of year? I think it is. You're getting on that treadmill. You might be hiring a personal trainer and you might be a few sessions in to your personal training to reveal that hot body or as you know, you're already
00:00:19
Speaker
hot soft over here, but we're working on that. But maybe, maybe your writing needs a boost. Maybe you need a writing personal trainer in your corner. If you're working on a book, an essay, query, book proposal, you name it. If you're ready to level up, email me at Brendan at BrendanOmera.com and we'll start a dialogue. I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go.
00:00:45
Speaker
I think one of the biggest things I used to see as a features editor was people pitching, well, a few things, I guess, not only just as a features editor, people pitching ideas or topics, or sorry, people pitching topics instead of stories. Hello!
00:01:11
Speaker
Hey, it's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. Did you just leave because you found that annoying? It's okay. It's okay. I'm Brendan Romero. How's it going? Hank, who do we have on the show today?
Introduction to Gloria Liu
00:01:27
Speaker
Okay. No help at all. Gloria Liu. Ah, nice. Sweet. I like this. I like this one. I like this one a lot. It's a freelance writer whose work for Outside Magazine is what prompted me to reach out to her. Specifically this reported essay she wrote about burnout and finding the meaning of life.
00:01:49
Speaker
My wife actually sent it to me because she and I are both chronically burned out. I read it. I loved it. I cold emailed Gloria and was like, bro, want to talk? And she was like, bro, yeah, let's do it. And then I read more of her work, which is great. And then we fired up the mics.
00:02:10
Speaker
I'll warn you that for the first part of the conversation there was a weird scratchy sound on Gloria's mic. I had stopped the conversation to have her fix it. Then it kind of came back a little bit. But then it eventually disappears for good.
00:02:25
Speaker
bear with it, or roll with it, or if you don't want to, that's fine. It'll hurt my feelings, of course, but you can stick with it. It's okay. It's worth it. It's worth sticking with it.
00:02:41
Speaker
I want to remind you to keep the conversation going on Twitter at cnfpod or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram. You can also support the podcast by becoming a paid member at patreon.com slash cnfpod. As they say, the show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap. Members get transcript chances to ask questions of future guests, which nobody is really taking the offer on that. I give you credit for it, but I guess no one really pays attention to the posts that I put up there.
00:03:10
Speaker
It's okay, it's there for you when you want to. Drawing up some special podcasts to some exclusive content for that audience. So if you want a little something something, a little something extra, consider supporting that because then you're supporting the show. The Audio Magazine and putting some dollars and cents into writers pockets because that's what we do.
00:03:32
Speaker
free ways to support the show. Of course, you can leave kind review on Apple Podcasts or rating on Spotify, the beleaguered Spotify at this time. Written reviews for our little podcast that could go a real long way towards validating the enterprise for the way we're seeing effort.
00:03:48
Speaker
We've stalled out for quite a bit, as I keep saying, and it'd be nice to ramp those up again. So if you have a moment, and it truly only takes a moment, head over to Apple Podcasts, or just rate the show. If you can't leave a written review, rating is fine. Very expeditious, as
Supporting Creative Writing and the Podcast
00:04:08
Speaker
they say. Show notes in my up to 11 monthly newsletter can be found at BrendanOmera.com. Hey, once a month, no spam, can't beat it.
00:04:16
Speaker
and you can also consider supporting West Virginia Wesleyan Colleges and they thank Creative Writing because they support the show. The support is waning for the show.
00:04:29
Speaker
Think about capitalizing on it while they're still sponsoring the show. It's a low residency, MFA in Creative Writing, now in its 11th year. This affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio, a strong sense of community. Recent faculty for CNF include random billings, Noble, Jeremy Jones, and CNF pod alum, Sarah Einstein.
00:04:50
Speaker
There's also a fiction and poetry tracks recent faculty there being Ashley Bryan Phillips and Jacinta Townsend as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. So in the matter your discipline man, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. Go to nfa.wvwc.edu for more information in dates of enrollment.
00:05:17
Speaker
Speaking of another place to visit, go follow Gloria on Twitter at that's underscore my underscore line.
Gloria Liu's Freelance Journey: Insights and Strategies
00:05:28
Speaker
Her website is Gloria dash Liu.com and Liu is spelled L I U. She's the former features editor for outside magazine. She edited features for bicycling and runner's world and she's been a best American sports writing notable
00:05:47
Speaker
Two times, I believe? I think he'll be inspired by her. I know I was, man. So let's figure out the meaning of life with Gloria Liu. It's kind of like punk rock, long form. Oh, fuck yeah it is. Riff.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that. I mean, I think in general freelance journalism is exactly the latter, right? It's a long game with where hopefully you get a lot of shots. I think recently I've been in an interesting stage in
00:06:35
Speaker
my freelancing, short freelancing career, I guess. I just went freelance for the second time, maybe seven months ago. So it was kind of fast and furious in the beginning. You know, you like leave your job. I was working as the features editor at outside. So if you're going to leave a full-time job and go into freelancing, that's a pretty good one, I think. Yeah. I had a lot of opportunities pretty much right off the bat, which I feel really fortunate about. And then, you know, it was almost like too many at first.
00:07:04
Speaker
hit this point where I was like, okay, I think I can be a little bit more strategic about things. What ended up happening was I turned down an opportunity that was really amazing. And it was a dream publication, a dream story, and I was too busy to do it. And that really killed me. And it made me kind of pause and say, okay, like, I think it's time to
00:07:23
Speaker
slow down and maybe say no to a few things so that I can, one, develop the ideas I'm really excited about, and two, yeah, make space to say yes to things that, you know, these kind of serendipitous opportunities that come about. So the last couple months has been kind of slow. I feel like I haven't been taking a lot of shots. And it's been by design, but it's still pretty
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it naturally raises an anxiety like you're not doing enough because the idea generation phase doesn't feel like taking shots. It feels like you're sort of sitting there just, I don't know, like whatever, like I don't know what you would even do before taking shots. Like you're just looking at game plans and just trying to work out a game plan even.
00:08:13
Speaker
So I guess it's sort of a long winded way of just thinking about, yeah, like how good it even feels to be able to take a shot, you know, like, and yeah, and I guess that's, I feel like the most exciting time is when you feel like you are taking a lot of shots, you know, even if you don't make all of them or most of them.
00:08:32
Speaker
Sure, and I think especially early on as you are trying to get traction and some sort of a toehold in the writing, you know, writing in journalism and so forth, that taking all those shots is really necessary to try to build up your batting average. And then you can really, I think, and you might be in this position now given that it's your second soiree into freelancing, and I can't wait to talk about your first soiree into it.
00:09:01
Speaker
but having been features that are outside you start having these connections and you kind of you can be a little more you can fire fewer arrows and probably get closer to the bullseye the more and more experience you get in the more and more people you know is that a fair assessment
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah, man, you just said it so much better than I did in terms of what I feel like I'm trying to do. I feel like I'm trying to take fewer shots, but higher quality ones and shots that I really feel good about.
Transitioning to Journalism and Breaking In
00:09:29
Speaker
And it's so funny to use this metaphor because I did play basketball growing up.
00:09:33
Speaker
So I'm like, yeah, like, instead of just heaving the ball, you know, at the hoop over and over again, sort of desperately really like setting up taking aim and taking a shot I feel really good about.
00:09:48
Speaker
But yeah, being in a place where you are taking shots, I think that feels really good. And I do feel like I'm starting to get my rhythm in the last month or so, and I am starting to take shots again, and it feels good.
00:10:04
Speaker
And I love that you brought up this idea of the idea generation. And a lot of people, it's a lot of fun to sometimes unpack how you go about ideas. When did they come to you? Where did they come to you? How do you keep track of them? What are the ones that are worth putting your resources in when it comes to pre-reporting out a story versus really diving in whole hog? So maybe you can give us a sense of what idea generation is like for you.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually, I'm really glad you're asking this. And I guess I'm gonna back up a little bit by saying that before our conversation today, I was thinking a little bit of the perspective I might bring today because I'm gonna be the first to say that in terms of my career, it's just, you know, I'm not as established as a lot of the guests that you've had on your show, right? I mean, I was listening to
00:11:00
Speaker
your interview with like Susan Arlene and, um, you know, Jen Miller, who's been freelancing for, I think she said 17 years. And I guess I'm pretty new to the game relative to those folks. Like I have several years of experience as an editor, um, but as a journalist and a writer, I am still pretty early on in my career. So I say that because
00:11:21
Speaker
One thing I've really realized these last several months is that idea generation is such a writer's craft. There are things that editors are really good at, and those skills I've really honed and those muscles are very developed from the last several years. And being a reporter, developing ideas, that's something I'm learning right now.
00:11:42
Speaker
And it's great. And that's exactly why I wanted to become a writer full-time because I had all these half-baked ideas as an editor. And I always was like, man, if I just had time to really go down the rabbit hole and develop a pitch, these could be amazing stories. But I just don't even know because I'm so busy doing my day job. And now I do have that time. And yeah, it's something I'm really learning on the fly.
00:12:08
Speaker
In terms of what's worked for me so far, I do write a lot of essays. So a lot of times my ideas are just things like questions that I find myself wondering out loud, you know, often amid conversation with a friend over a beer or when I'm skiing or riding my bike, those are the things I do for fun. You know, just like, hey, like,
00:12:33
Speaker
Have you, I wonder why I know so many people who are really smart people in every other way and they're just terrible with money, you know, and I'm one of those people and that became an essay. Or, yeah, I wonder why, like when the pandemic began and I was
00:12:50
Speaker
you know, as we all were doing like walking around because there was nothing to do, else to do. I was just going on these long walks and I'd always hated walking. And I was like, wow, look at all of us just walking around all of a sudden. How funny that this really basic elemental human movement is something that we really stopped doing. And we didn't even think about that until we started doing it again because there was nothing else to do. And that became an essay. So yeah, I guess like for the essays, it's very much
00:13:20
Speaker
just stuff I just think about. Because I guess my brain works that way, and it's weird, and I overthink everything. And I kind of sometimes joke to my editor that, like, yeah, you guys are just paying me to overthink things. This may seem really obvious to people. So that's how the essay stuff works. And then in terms of the reported features, I guess for me, a lot of the idea generation just comes from things that kind of catch my attention in my world. So
00:13:47
Speaker
I just wrote a feature for Outside Magazine about the affordable housing crisis in ski towns and that's something that kind of organically came to my attention because I live in Colorado outside of Denver and on the weekends I ski, I mountain bike, I go to these mountain towns
00:14:04
Speaker
every weekend or every other weekend. And these places are really near and dear to my heart. And I've lived in mountain towns. And yeah, when I started seeing local news headlines and Instagram posts from people I knew about people having a hard time finding housing, that obviously interested me right away. And it was just kind of naturally where I found my attention going. And I was reading all these local news articles. And yeah, that became a story eventually.
00:14:33
Speaker
Well you know and there's a distinction too between freelance journalism and freelance writing and are you completely on the journalism side or do you do some of the some writing stuff like some more mercenary work that they maybe you don't tweet about but it's the thing that also kind of helps helps with income generation like like like a lot of what Jen Miller writes about.
00:14:56
Speaker
Yeah, I do, I guess, mostly journalism. I've been fortunate enough to be busy enough with that so far, but I do have, I guess, one client who toes the line a little bit between both. I mean, I guess, yeah, I write for the Red Bulletin, which is Red Bulls magazine. And so they are like a publication and the editors who work there come from an editorial background, really strong editorial background, great editors, Peter Flax and Nora O'Donnell.
00:15:25
Speaker
But I guess Red Bull, if you look at how they're classified for awards, they're classified as a trade magazine. So I do work for them as well.
00:15:38
Speaker
maybe toes the line. But no, I so far haven't done a ton of that sort of category of mercenary work, but I'm very much open to it. I mean, I think it's funny, I come from a consulting background actually. When I graduated from college, I worked in financial evaluation for corporate clients.
00:15:56
Speaker
I think just thinking about making your time worthwhile and billable hours and projects that are profitable and not profitable is very natural to me. And I think a while back when I was thinking about how freelancing was going to work and obviously listening to other writers say how they make it economically work, that was always kind of a long-term plan or vision for me. I was like, yeah, I think I'll likely supplement the editorial work with other types of contract writing as well.
00:16:26
Speaker
Now that was something I wanted to bring up too because you wrote one piece, I think it might have been the burnout piece, like in a past life you say I worked in digital marketing and financial services and I just wanted to get a sense of the path that brought you there and then eventually the path that broke you out of that and into the journalistic stuff you got into.
00:16:48
Speaker
When I was a kid, I always loved magazines and books and it was my dream to be a writer. But, you know, I didn't know anybody in publishing at all. I grew up in the Bay Area of California.
00:17:01
Speaker
are immigrants from Taiwan and most of their friends are also Taiwanese-American immigrants. The adults that I saw worked in engineering or healthcare. Yeah, those kinds of professions and publishing seemed really, really out of reach. My dad was always like, yeah, you could be a writer, you will end up depressed and broke, which wasn't super encouraging. I went into business instead.
00:17:29
Speaker
Yeah, out of school, I worked in the financial services industry for five years. And it's so funny. I remember like my first week on the job, I was sitting there staring at this Excel spreadsheet and I just thought to myself like, oh gosh, like I really screwed up. You know, like I don't, this doesn't feel like me, but at the same time, it was a good job that paid me well. And, you know, I was
00:17:54
Speaker
pretty good at it. And I was promoted pretty quickly. And so I think, you know, for several years, just being kind of intellectually challenged like that and feeling like I had career momentum, kept me in that business.
00:18:10
Speaker
You know, I just kind of got to a point in my mid to late 20s and I'm not even really sure if it was like career on way or something else, but I just was like, hey, I want to take a break and reassess things.
Learning at Bicycling Magazine
00:18:21
Speaker
So I quit my job and I was like, you know, I like have never really liked my job. What would it be like to do something I really loved every single day? And it was crazy because I didn't even know what the answer to that question was. I was like, let's see, maybe I don't know. Maybe if I do something I love every day, I'll just get bored of it.
00:18:38
Speaker
So what I really loved at the time was snowboarding, so I ended up going over to New Zealand actually and doing a ski season out there, worked as a lift operator on the mountain, ended up coming back from there and moving to Colorado to work in Aspen at a restaurant, keep skiing and snowboarding.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, when I finished doing that and wanted to go back to the workforce, I went into marketing for a company that served endurance athletes because I was really into cycling at the time.
00:19:16
Speaker
Fortunately for me, that job was somewhat related to publishing in the sense that I was in charge of managing their blog and we were doing content marketing. So I did get a little bit of editing experience there and just experienced doing things like planning out a publishing calendar. And yeah, but it was still kind of like, you know, I was like, well, this is pretty good. But that like thought like dream was always kind of still in the back of my mind, like,
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to be a writer. I always wanted to be a writer. So one day I remember I was, you know, kind of sitting there complaining about my job to a co-worker through G-chat and he just sent me this job posting.
00:19:59
Speaker
And it was in a junior editor position at Outside Magazine. And I was like, what the heck? I'll go ahead and apply. And I had like no experience, of course, in editorial. So I'm like laughing about this now because it's so funny. And I was like, I have to get their attention somehow. So I put together a PowerPoint presentation about myself.
00:20:17
Speaker
with all these like funny photos and jokes and I like actually got an edit test and I didn't get the job because you know I must not have done very well on my edit test but one of the best pieces of advice someone ever asked me was or someone ever told me was hey if you don't get a job always ask them what you could have done better so
00:20:37
Speaker
When the editor got back and said, sorry, we're not moving you on, I said, Oh, like, can you give me any advice on anything I can do in the next couple years to be a stronger candidate? And he said, Oh, well, thanks for asking. I would love to give that to you. Give me just some time to type up an email and
00:20:54
Speaker
I was living in Boulder at the time and I was like, I just remember getting this wild hair and like looking up Santa Fe, which is right outside his face and seeing it was six hours away. And I was like, why don't I save you that 15 minutes? And I'll just, I'll just drive out and I'll buy you a beer. You can tell me in person. And he was like, okay, weirdo.
00:21:12
Speaker
But he actually took the meeting and I ended up going down and meeting with a few of the editors at outside and we had like a really nice time and I remember thinking like, wow, these are some of the most interesting, coolest people I've ever met in my life and I want to do what they do. And I still didn't get the job, Brendan. But it but I was like, you know, they didn't laugh me out of the room. Maybe I could do this, you know, so I quit my marketing job and I
00:21:40
Speaker
became a freelance journalist. And this was the first soiree into it? Yes. And it was hard because, again, I didn't have any experience. But what worked out for me was that outside, because I made those contacts, was kind enough to extend my first few freelance assignments. So, yeah, I got some online stories with them, which obviously is really helpful as a budding freelancer. Yeah. And I sort of muddled through my first year of freelancing.
00:22:09
Speaker
kind of figuring it out, getting some small assignments here and there. And I ended up pitching a story to Bicycling Magazine.
00:22:18
Speaker
who I hadn't worked for before. And they told me, hey, we have a job opening. As a gear editor, you should apply. And I didn't think I was qualified at all. But I was like, you know, last time I applied to a job, I got a new client out of it. So why don't I just apply again? And I ended up getting the job. And that was where I really got my initial training as a journalist. I worked at Bicycling for four years. And
00:22:41
Speaker
Um, I was there when they got acquired by Hearst and it became a group that's, you know, now bicycling runner's world and popular mechanics. And yeah, those, those were the folks who really taught me everything about magazine making and journalism. And I'm really, really grateful to them for, uh, for extending me that opportunity in the first place. What were some of your, your growing pains as you were getting your feet under you in this new industry?
00:23:05
Speaker
Oh my gosh, there were so many. So I remember my first week on the job at Bicyclia, I went to a production meeting and those are the weekly meetings that they do at magazines to just go through, hey, how's the magazine doing? And, you know, go through all the different stories and through all these acronyms, like, and I remember seeing the acronym CE and I was like, what does that mean?
00:23:28
Speaker
And now, of course, I know that means copy edit, you know, but I mean, like, and I was sitting at that meeting. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I've really never done this before. And it was really bewildering. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't study English or literature or journalism in school. I studied business. And and so I had to be taught certain things like
00:23:50
Speaker
I remember my top editor at the time, he's a really wonderful editor. His name is Lou Mazzanti. And I was editing gear reviews and he was top editing them. I guess I kept using gerunds. And one day he got so fed up, he was like, stop using these gerunds! And I was like, I had to Google what a gerund was.
00:24:10
Speaker
I was like, what's he talking about? So it was a lot of really silly little things like that. But again, you know, the editors there were so kind and yeah, they really mentored me. And and I remember my first also my first week on the job, the editor in chief at the time, Bill Strickland, who now directs that whole group for Hearst. He said to me, you know, I'm not worried at all about the fact that you don't have any journalism experience. You
00:24:39
Speaker
have such a passion for bikes and you're clearly smart and know how to manage, you know, workflows and processes. And yeah, I'm just, I'm not worried about this at all. And that was, that was really kind of him. And yeah, and another, another editor who was really formative in my development there was Leah Flickinger, who's now the features director for that whole group. And she was the one who
00:25:03
Speaker
taught me, you know, so much of what I know, like how to edit a feature. She used to give me some of her old drafts that, you know, so I could see what the first draft was and see all the different revisions that she had done. So yeah, it was, you know, and I was like really hungry for that stuff too. I was kind of like a little sponge for it. So.
00:25:22
Speaker
Well, it's amazing to see that, because even super talented, competent, brilliant writers and reporters, they'll turn in a draft and it'll just get shredded by a good editor. And I'm sure you've experienced it on both ends. So what was that like for you to see what a real professional magazine edit partook?
Exploring Burnout and Work-Life Balance
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah, that was really eye-opening, too. And honestly, where I really saw it the most was, again, when I was this junior editor, I don't know if everybody knows what a top edit is, but basically, most stories, especially that go into a magazine, will get edited by your editor, and then it goes to what's called a top edit, which is a second round. And that was really where I learned a lot. And speaking of growing pains, I'll never forget this.
00:26:14
Speaker
I was in charge of editing our virus guide, which is a special issue that Bicycling puts out every year. And it's a huge job. You know, I was the gear editor at the time and like, it kind of felt very much like my responsibility. And I was supposed to edit at the, the original time was I was going to edit every single review. I went into the magazine and we hit a point where it was like two weeks to ship or something. And, you know, frankly, I was kind of.
00:26:40
Speaker
doing them very quickly and passing them on to my top editor who is Leah and um and I'll never forget she it was like 6 p.m or something or 7 p.m and
00:26:49
Speaker
she had been kicking them back to me with just really tearing them up. And I was annoyed. And I was like, gosh, she's been so picky. And she comes into my office and she goes, I can really tell that you're just passing these through. And you need to take more care with these, basically, was the gist of what she said. And I was like,
00:27:12
Speaker
I think I kind of was like, I sort of snapped and I was like, yeah, you know, like we don't have time. I'm doing this all by myself, et cetera, whatever excuses. And I'll never forget. She was like, well, I don't I don't know what to say. These just need to be better. And she just left. And I just I was so.
00:27:34
Speaker
speechless. And I actually, tears came to my eyes because I just, you know, I was so frustrated. But then I was like, oh, fine. And I went through and I was, you know, actually putting in the changes that she was suggesting. And like, lo and behold, it was so much better. You know, the pieces were coming out better. And I guess my big lesson from that was, you know, listen to your editor and
00:27:57
Speaker
usually when people are giving you feedback and telling you something doesn't work, you may not, the solution may not be exactly what they suggest, but what you're doing isn't working and you need to try to do better. So yeah, that was really formative for me. And I hope that doesn't make Leah sound bad. I think she was,
00:28:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that was a really valuable lesson she taught me and she's she's truly an amazing editor. So and I guess it really taught me to be just to hold myself to really high standards and everything I produce. And when it comes to pitching, you've been on both sides of it. What is what are some things when people are pitching there? They're ultimately kind of getting wrong. That's not getting them across the goal line.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the biggest things I used to see as a features editor was people pitching, well, a few things, I guess, not just as a features editor, people pitching ideas.
00:29:04
Speaker
or topics, or sorry, people pitching topics instead of stories. Someone's saying, for example, I want to do a story about the overcrowding on our public camping grounds. And that's a topic, you know, it's not really a story. I think that's something we see a lot. I think
00:29:32
Speaker
Another common mistake is something that doesn't really answer the question of why now. Like why is the story, why should we do this now? And I think the last thing is really less of a mistake and more of I think like a good check for most people who are pitching is like
00:29:55
Speaker
If you have written up a pitch, like do you have a good online head for this story, a good catchy online head that like you would click on? Um, I don't mean to say like a clickbait head. I just mean like a head that really sums up what the main cell of the story is. And if you don't have that, it probably needs to be honed and focused more.
00:30:17
Speaker
Sometimes what I think is a really good exercise in distilling what a story is about into a sentence or two, it will really hone and focus the reporting and the research as well, is can you fit what the story is about into like a tweet or study Netflix descriptions of movies.
00:30:37
Speaker
like some of them are terrible and sometimes don't really sum up the movie but they are about one or two sentences long and they do try to describe an entire feature in a sentence or two and it's like okay you kind of have to get to that point and then the the tip of the spear is very sharp at that point yeah that's so interesting about the netflix movie descriptions i'll have to check them out um but i totally agree i mean it's funny because i actually
00:31:06
Speaker
almost start with the head, if that makes sense. Like that's when I know I have a story idea is, cause like a lot of stuff I'm kind of kicking it around, right? And like, I'm like talking about it, but the moment I have my head, I know like, okay, this is something I can pitch, you know? And a lot of times I'm like, when I'm writing a pitch, I almost write, I write that the head first, and then the rest of the pitch is written towards that main cell.
00:31:31
Speaker
When you were putting together this burnout piece that you wrote for Outside magazine, so what was the online head that came to you as you were thinking about this one? Well, it's funny because it's the actual head that they ended up using in the story, which was, it's easy to find work-life balance, just find the meaning of life.
00:31:55
Speaker
And it was obviously a little tongue in cheek, but yeah, that was an interesting one because that was an assignment actually that wasn't an idea I came up with on my own. Outside wanted to do a package about work-life balance and they asked me if I could write a lead essay about the topic. And it was really challenging because this is obviously a topic that a lot of really smart writers have written about a lot in the past couple of years.
00:32:20
Speaker
And I was like, what am I going to say that's going to be different or new on this topic, right? That really smart people haven't already said. And then when I was thinking about that, I was like, basically, what is my head going to be that I'm basically writing into? What is this new thing that I'm going to say? And I was like, the way I was thinking about it was, what is my head? And then when I got to that, I was like, okay, this is the story of what I'm writing to.
00:32:46
Speaker
Yeah, and you write, too, in that piece that, you know, that burnout, it really comes from, especially in this country, that it's just constant hustle. You gotta work so much.
00:33:02
Speaker
It just doesn't afford you much except really just burning the candle at both ends. You might make some money, but then you have nothing in the tank to enjoy anything it is that the money might be able to afford. And then you, as a result, sort of draw inwards and kind of, in a sense, become just very selfish and myopic because all you have energy for is to kind of just veg out.
00:33:27
Speaker
And so, you know, what was in light of that, like, what was very eye-opening for you over the course of your research of this piece? I felt like a lot of the discussion I'd heard about burnout and just work-life balance in general put a lot of the onus on the individual, so on the worker.
00:33:47
Speaker
and almost as if it's your problem. You work too much, you're workaholic. You prioritize work too much. I think we all know that's not the case. It's not your fault that your work culture rewards people for working nights and weekends or that you work in an industry that is
00:34:11
Speaker
constantly cutting head count and asking people to do more. That's not our fault. And at the same time, I knew that the article or the piece should be helpful to people and not just say, hey, look at these systemic problems. Dang it, there's nothing we can do about it. So striking that balance between those two things, acknowledging that these are systemic and cultural problems while also giving people something
00:34:39
Speaker
that could make them feel like they had agency. That was really a challenge with this piece. And, you know, in terms of what was eye-opening, yeah, like as the more reading I did and talking to experts, it really affirmed that like, no, this isn't an individual choice. Like, yes, we do make individual choices to work more and work harder and prioritize work in our lives, but ultimately,
00:35:03
Speaker
you know, it's a result of the culture and the system that we live in. So yeah, it was really challenging figuring out how to balance the realities, like both of these realities.
00:35:15
Speaker
And I remember a retail job I had a few years ago and it goes to a point from someone you quoted in this piece where, see here's the quote, it's like it could be as simple as not bragging about your own long hours or blocking out your weekends for rest and recovery and it certainly means being supportive of co-workers who pursue those boundaries too.
00:35:37
Speaker
And I remember when I would occasionally, I don't know, ask for and get a weekend off. You know, a lot of people on in the store just be like, oh, must be nice. And they were like constantly like shame you if you.
00:35:52
Speaker
you know, got a Saturday off or got time off or, you know, if you saved up a few bucks and you went to a concert and everyone's just like, whoa, geez, wish I could do that. And it's like, well, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. And it just it really, especially with the time thing, like, oh, it must be nice where you're taking a few days off and they make you feel like shit for doing it. It's like that doesn't help anyone. And you're making me feel guilty for taking some time away like you do it, too. Anyone can. You just got to prioritize it.
00:36:22
Speaker
Right. Yeah. That's very true. Like there is an aspect of personal choice to that. And then there's like situations in which people can't choose to do that too.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, like if you, you know, in certain lines of work, there really isn't a lot of flexibility, you know, a lot of low wage work or shift work, a lot of work performed by, you know, typically performed by immigrants or people who may have other reasons that they feel like they don't have as much agency. And I wanted to acknowledge that too, but at the same time, a lot of us do have that agency. So I knew that like the piece couldn't speak to everybody,
00:37:01
Speaker
But I did want to try to paint, I guess, in more full picture than maybe some of the other pieces about work-life balance have.
00:37:13
Speaker
maybe done because I feel like a lot of the stuff I was reading was really geared towards, you know, like white collar workers or desk people with desk jobs. And I just wanted to at least, you know, acknowledge that that isn't always the reality for everybody, which was why I decided to interview a woman named Sophia Flores, who she works in behavioral health for in mammoth.
00:37:34
Speaker
in Mono County, which is where Mammoth Mountain is. And yeah, she talked about how when her parents immigrated from Mexico, they didn't really have a choice. They had to support the family and they worked as cleaners and they worked seven days a week. And certainly they didn't have the flexibility that she now enjoys. But because of that, she really appreciates the fact that she can
00:37:57
Speaker
take off at 5 p.m. and go for a trail run or take her dogs for a walk in the middle of the day. Her story, I felt like, encapsulated both sides of that experience.
Approach to Essay Writing and Inspirations
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, and you end the piece by speaking with one of your friends, your friend Kat, I believe, and you would ask her sort of point blank what the meaning of life is. What did you take away from that?
00:38:22
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I loved her answer. So she said, the meaning of life is to live it. And I really was surprised, honestly, by that answer. I thought she would say something like, and for people who haven't read the story, obviously, so the backstory is that my friend Kat
00:38:42
Speaker
is really a remarkable human being. But one of the things that she recently went through is that she survived ovarian cancer and she went through chemo and was going through all that while she was running her own company, a podcast incubator in Denver. And so naturally I thought, wow, here's somebody who knows
00:39:06
Speaker
a lot about life and also knows a lot about how important work can be in life. And I just really wanted to get her perspective on it. And I thought she was going to say something like, oh, the meaning of life is to do good for others or something like that. But the meaning of life is to live it. I just, yeah, I couldn't have asked for a more perfect response. And when I thought about it, I was like, yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
what else would be the meaning of life? It was just, yeah, it was really profound. It felt really right. And I've thought about that quote a lot, you know, just since she said it to me. And it's been like a really good guiding force for me in terms of just like making all sorts of decisions, whether it's whether I shut down work for the day, or should I sign up for this crazy ski race, even though I've never done a ski race, or, you know, should we plan this trip to Europe this summer, you know, like,
00:40:00
Speaker
because we haven't traveled internationally for literally years, you know? And it's like, well, what is the meaning of life? Like live life, you know, live it.
00:40:10
Speaker
And I like in the pieces that I've read from you, whether it's does your bicycle have a soul or the the awesome piece you wrote on garages, which I really, really love that one. And or the people being young people being bad with money. They're all like reported first person driven story. So, you know, how did you develop your taste where that's kind of a groove you've really locked into?
00:40:38
Speaker
Honestly, it kind of happened by accident. It's funny because when I first started working in journalism, I actually was a little self-conscious about writing about myself. And it's actually because I got that feedback pretty early on. I was writing a few pieces for Bicycling Magazine. And one of the pieces of feedback I got from one of my editors was,
00:41:07
Speaker
You need to learn to think more about the reader and what the reader is going to get out of this. And this wasn't direct feedback, but I would hear about writers who could only write about themselves. And I was really afraid of becoming a writer like that.
00:41:32
Speaker
Because, you know, I think essay is a really natural form for a lot of people and it's like the easiest form, right? Like all the material lives inside your head. You know, social media, like we all write first person and everyone does it. So I was like almost afraid of being.
00:41:49
Speaker
somebody who could only write in first person or only write about myself. So I really like almost forced myself not to write about myself for my first few years. And so it's really only in the last, I would say two to three years that I've really felt comfortable writing essay again. And, and I think that was that almost like a version to it. The first four years or so actually probably helped me
00:42:18
Speaker
become a better essay writer because like really at their heart, my essays aren't about me, right? And of course that's like the most basic writing thing. The most basic writing tip is that your essays, your writing is never really about you. It just kind of like naturally, those were the ideas that I naturally started to have.
00:42:39
Speaker
What I found made them much more interesting and rich was the reporting that I could do around them. So the ideas always came from my life or my head, but then the bulk of the information that I think is really interesting to people is always the reporting.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah, that definitely imbues the first-person part, which is more you're just kind of a conduit or a stand-in for the reader. And you're like, I'm your guide. I'm going to hold your hand through this. These are the questions that I'm positing that I'm hoping that will resonate with you. And here's all the research I did to back this. But you're going to come on my tandem bicycle here. I'm going to pedal. You're going on for this ride. Yeah, exactly. And I think maybe one other
00:43:25
Speaker
reason that this may have become kind of the bulk of my work so far is that when I was working as an editor, I didn't, again, like I said earlier, I didn't have as much time to chase down maybe things that, story ideas that would take more reporting. So essays were easier to write when I was, you know, doing all my writing on weekends and early mornings and evenings. So that might also be why quite a bit of my work from the last
00:43:55
Speaker
couple years has been essay writing. But, you know, I will say too that I definitely want
00:44:04
Speaker
to move more towards like reported narratives. I find them really interesting and really fun to write. And yeah, a lot of times I want to take a break from talking about myself because I'm really not that interesting. Who are some of the reporters doing that long form, narratively driven feature writing that you're really drawn to and you'd like to emulate the most?
00:44:29
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. I was actually thinking about this earlier. Well, there are two Rachels, Rachel Monroe, Rachel Aviv, and yeah, Rachel Aviv is, you know, obviously a staff writer at the New Yorker, and Rachel Monroe does a lot of really amazing freelance stuff. Rachel Monroe is a staff writer at New Yorker now.
00:44:52
Speaker
Oh, she is. I missed that. Yeah, it just happened a couple months ago. She's been on this podcast. I've tried to get the other Rachel, Rachel of Yvonne to working on that. That'll happen at some point. But but yeah, Rachel Monroe, she yeah, she just got that as she's got the little cute avatar in New Yorker avatar cartoon. Oh my gosh. Yeah, of course. Well, good for them.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, I just feel like they're both writers who just write like, you know, they do both the reporting and the writing just so well. And they write with such discipline. I don't know, like, yeah, it's such like restraint and discipline. And yet, yeah, there's when I see that byline, I'm just like, okay, this is going to be good.
00:45:40
Speaker
So when I was working at Bicycling, Steve Friedman was doing a lot of long form features for Bicycling and Runner's World. And I really admire his work. He's somebody who, I feel like, I mean, he's obviously written for some big publications, but he's also just done really well. It seems like he just writes stories about topics that really interest him, right? Like he's done a lot of sports writing.
00:46:04
Speaker
and he writes for these smaller publications and he just absolutely kills it. And, you know, his writing's always hit in Best American Sports Writing, National Magazine Award nominations. And yeah, he just does such a great job with profiles and with characters. From outside, was always a big fan of Tim Cahill. He was just really funny. He writes really funny adventure narratives and I would, gosh, I really admire people who can write humorously because I think
00:46:35
Speaker
I don't know. I just feel like it seems like one of the few things that obviously I think you can get better at everything in writing, but, um, you kind of either, you're either a funny writer or you're not really that funny, you know? And I don't, I would love to be funny, but yeah. And then Nick Palmgarden, another New Yorker writer. I guess I really have kind of a little bit of a New Yorker bias maybe, but I mean, he, he obviously covers a lot of the topics that I'm interested in, um, in the outdoors. And, um, he's also a pretty funny writer, so yeah.
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah, I love his profiles and I'm drawn to sports writing and sports profiles and he does them exceptionally well.
Emotional Restraint and Success in Freelancing
00:47:15
Speaker
They're always a great read. That being said, I feel like there's so many writers I admire, like we could go on and on. Those are the names that I feel like I've, you know, I see repeatedly and I'm like, look for their work.
00:47:28
Speaker
Now you said something really interesting regarding both Rachel's about restraint and what does that look like to you as you're reading it and maybe as you're trying to maybe execute it in your own writing.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think actually what I was referring to was really kind of emotional restraint. And of course, like all good journalism, you know, obviously we're always striving to
00:48:03
Speaker
report the truth, right, and just report the facts and what happened. But, you know, especially stories that deal with really difficult subjects, like some of the ones that Rachel Monroe and Rachel Aviv have written about, I just really admire when people can write about them in a way that isn't
00:48:20
Speaker
sensational, and is like respectful of everybody in the story. And it's fair. And I don't know, it's maybe a little bit hard to articulate. But yeah, just the way that they describe sometimes things that some people that you could be tempted to just go over the top on. But you can feel that like kind of professional restraint. And yeah, I really admire that quality.
00:48:45
Speaker
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, because there are certain topics that can be, it's very easy to sensationalize and go into, for lack of a better term, gory language, whereas if you just kind of, like you said, exercise at restraint and
00:49:05
Speaker
turn down the volume on the writing that way the scene and the reporting itself will really sort of rise out of it if you just show okay I'm gonna put a restrictor plate on this and just let the you know the story bubble up to the top it doesn't need any more flourishes by the writer
00:49:25
Speaker
Yeah, when you read a piece and you're just like, wow, there wasn't a single statement. It feels like there wasn't a single line in here that wasn't just a statement of fact or a quote from someone. And there wasn't a single line in here that was a statement of opinion or editorializing.
00:49:46
Speaker
And yet it makes this story altogether says something really powerful. I'm like, wow, that's masterful. Yeah, I remember actually speaking of Rachel Aviv, the piece of hers that really did that, where she did really well was about Elizabeth Loftus. She was a psychologist who studied, you know, the way that memories are formed and how we can sometimes
00:50:10
Speaker
how memory can be faulty. And obviously, legally sensitive piece, so you have to sort of, you know, just present the facts. But she just, she did it really, really well there. Now, given that you're in your second rodeo with freelancing, what's your relationship to ambition right now and where you want to take it?
00:50:33
Speaker
Oh, great question. I sometimes feel like, um, all I am is ambition. And I don't know if like, that's, it's a little dramatic, but I feel, um, you know, on the topic of work-life balance, you know, I, sometimes I think like I have.
00:50:54
Speaker
no work-life balance, or I need more work-life balance because I just think about work all the time. I think about my career all the time and stories I want to work on. I'm just always thinking about stories and writing. Sometimes I'm like, wow, this is really intense and I'm probably not very much fun to be around right now unless you also just want to talk about stories and writing or what's happening in the news. But I think that's also okay. I believe in
00:51:21
Speaker
Seasons in life, you know, I think we have like seasons to play like when your job should just be a paycheck and you Just clock in and out and then otherwise you do what you love, you know and have fun and like seasons to work and I feel like I'm very actively Still in the trying to make it part of my freelance career. And so it's okay if you know, I am
00:51:44
Speaker
80% to 90% ambition right now and like 10 to 20% chill and fun. So yeah, I guess I feel very ambitious and very ready to, you know, really like, do what it takes to, to get established. And I'm sure that will even I hope I hope it'll even out a little bit more in the future. But yeah, work and writing is
00:52:12
Speaker
Definitely basically number one priority right now How would you define in this season of your life? How would you define what making it is? You know, it's funny because I think
00:52:29
Speaker
I remember maybe like a year ago, somebody asked me, you know, when I was saying I was thinking about going freelance, they said, oh, like, what are your dream publications? And it's funny because at the time, and I really meant it. I was like, you know, I've never really thought about it that way. I think more about dream stories, like dream work I'd like to do. And I've thought more just about, yeah, like I want to do these types of stories or stories that make people
00:52:58
Speaker
feel a lot or like you know really are just really really good work and and then then I you know cut my job and I started for dancing and and then the like last few months of last year I was really like okay like there are these publications I really want to break into and
00:53:13
Speaker
And I think I want to be like that kind of writer who writes for this publication. I think I'm coming back around to like, no, I think I, I just want to do the kind of, I just want to do really, really good work, like work that I'm really proud of. And, and I think that's going to lead to, you know, somewhere good that where I can be like, Hey, I feel really good about my career, you know, and I'm, I'm, if I haven't made it, I have like arrived at least at a place where I'm like, I'm doing it. And yeah, I'm trying to just,
00:53:44
Speaker
come back to that original intent, which is like, I just want, I wanna do work I'm really proud of, which I know sounds kind of,
00:53:54
Speaker
But the reality is actually, I think if you ask most people, you know, what have you produced that you're really, really proud of? This I think is really short for most people, you know? Like for me, I think it's like two pieces, two stories out of, I think a lot that I've written. And yeah, like write a story you're really, really proud of is actually a huge achievement.
00:54:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess to have really made it, it's like to be consistently producing work that I'm really, really proud of. What are those two stories you're really proud of right now? I'm proud of the housing story that I wrote for Outside. You said that just came out, right? Yeah, that came out in November. It was a story about the affordable housing crisis in mountain towns.
00:54:46
Speaker
It was, you know, I'm proud of it because it sounds like a really dry topic. I know, you know, probably like people are hearing this are like snore, but I promise the story isn't dry, at least I don't think it's dry, you know.
00:55:04
Speaker
It ended up being a story really about a town called Crested Butte, Colorado, which was grappling with this problem as many ski towns all over the West are. But I ended up speaking as many time with a guy there named Will Desjardins, and he was a town councilman, and he really, really fought for affordable housing. And it was a lot about his fight and the challenges he came up against, and how frustrating and exhausting, and maybe in the end, disillusioning it was.
00:55:33
Speaker
just kind of, I don't know, to me it felt like a story about normal people trying to fight like really big systemic forces that sometimes feel like, you know, there's like inevitable, right? Like, yeah, so I'm proud of that one. And it took a lot of reporting and I'm proud of that too. And the other piece is my story about finance. And I think for that one, it's like,
00:56:03
Speaker
It's less so that I'm like...
00:56:05
Speaker
proud necessarily of, it's not like the writing or anything, but it seemed like it really resonated with a lot of people. And it was a story that scared me a lot. I remember I was so scared that I almost considered, and I never told anybody this, but I almost considered telling them not to run it online, because I was so scared. I thought there was going to be this huge backlash. And I was like bracing myself for hate mail when it came out online. And instead it was,
00:56:34
Speaker
It was the opposite of that. It was like a lot of people messaging to say like, hey, this really resonated with me. Thank you for writing this.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, that was a great piece, and hearing you talk about it and the way you write about a certain part at the end where you're like, this is the part where I'm almost, I'm afraid to admit that I received a certain degree of help from my parents in acknowledging that sort of monetary privilege that a lot of people don't have, and I could sense the discomfort of you writing it, which you hat-tipped to that discomfort, and hearing you talk about
00:57:09
Speaker
The backlash that you're afraid that you might receive so I can really I can feel that energy that pulse
00:57:16
Speaker
Yeah, I like thought I was, I don't know, it's, and I guess, and that's like the point of the piece, right? Like that shame is actually the entire point of the essay is that we feel so much shame. Like, like the psychologist Brad Kwanz that I quoted, like we feel so much shame around money. We feel shame when we have too little and we feel shame when we have too much, you know, like to be like in your thirties and say like, Hey, I had to get help from my parents to buy a house. Like,
00:57:41
Speaker
that feels really shameful. And I thought people were gonna write me and be like, Oh, boo hoo, you know, like, must be nice, you know, having parents to help you out, like, I thought I was gonna get letters like that. But instead, like, yeah, I heard from people who were like, Yeah, I don't have I'm not fortunate enough to have that. But still, this part of the article resonated with me. And, and I think even just like saying, like, hey, I couldn't do this without outside help says so much about our current moment and the challenges facing like our generation, right? Like,
00:58:12
Speaker
It is hard. It's hard to buy a house. Oh, yeah these days and most people You know can't can't do it without help. Yeah. Well in this country we're very obsessed with like the rags-to-riches story of you know self-made man did it by himself or herself and
00:58:34
Speaker
and but then like your piece also gets to like even if you do make it even if you come from nothing and you do make it then there's there's still shame that you've made it it's like it's this weird like what what a catch-22 of bullshit around money like what a horrible story that we have to tell ourselves about money it's really it's so hard
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like crazy. Once you start to say it out loud, you see how you're like, wait, this is crazy. But yeah, until you do, I took it for granted.
00:59:17
Speaker
Um, and I was like, oh, I'm the only person who feels this way. I feel, I mean, of course I knew it wasn't the only person, but I was like, yeah, like most people like wouldn't understand this. I'm never going to say this out loud that I like feel kind of ashamed that I grew up economically comfortable.
Business Skills in Freelancing
00:59:32
Speaker
And it's not even that interesting of a thing to say, but like one thing I've thought a lot about writing recently and that writing essay, I guess is like, you have to have a lot of faith that the experiences that make you feel like a weirdo.
00:59:46
Speaker
are actually really universal. You're like most bizarre, weird thoughts. Like actually a lot of people think them, but you have to have faith. So then like at the same time, while you're sitting there thinking you're a total alien, you also have to believe that everyone's a little bit like you. It's so weird.
01:00:07
Speaker
Yeah. Now, what was a lesson that or a best lesson that you learned from having studied business that you've applied to your freelance writing?
01:00:23
Speaker
I think I think very naturally about the business side of things. When I was a consultant, I had to track all my billable hours and we would bill them to the client. I had a rate. I think I billed out by the time I left $525 an hour, which is pretty crazy. My boss had a rate and the junior people had a rate. Everybody had different rates.
01:00:49
Speaker
It's very intuitive for me to think about my time as being worth some dollar amount, right? And so when I think about kind of like the business aspect of it and fees, it's really natural for me to be like, okay, how much time do I think this story is going to take? What is the fee? Does this, at least from a financial perspective, make sense? That's been really helpful because that's like one of the bars that you want an assignment to clear, right?
01:01:19
Speaker
So that's helpful for me. And then I think the other thing is having a financial analysis background actually is proving to be pretty helpful when I'm reporting out stories like the affordable housing story where you're looking at this really complicated problem that has a lot of different variables and inputs. And you're trying to translate something that could be really dry and boring and complicated to
01:01:46
Speaker
a mainstream audience or a lay person and there's a lot of numbers that you could look at and how do you relate them to one another in a way that tells a story and makes sense and how do you correctly interpret data and trends, what's relevant, what's not, and I think it's really natural for me to think about those things. I'm actually working on a story right now where I'll actually be putting some more financial analysis skills to
01:02:14
Speaker
to work and it's really fun. It's fun to have that skill set and be like, oh wow, it's like showing up in a surprising way in my line of work as a journalist.
The Importance of Editors in Journalism
01:02:25
Speaker
Nice. Well, Gloria, as I primed the pump a little while ago before we were officially on mics, I always like to ask guests as we bring this airliner down for a landing for a recommendation of any kind. And I extend that to you. As we wind down our wonderful conversation, what would you recommend for the listeners out there? Oh, this is for the listeners. I thought it was for you. Oh, shit. You can give one to me, too. What would you recommend for me?
01:02:56
Speaker
Sorry. Well, yeah, why not? Let's turn this one on its head a little bit. Wow. I'm so sorry that that's how you read it. What a weird thing to ask. You'd be like, all right, at the end of the show, Gloria, I ask guests all the time. I need a recommendation.
01:03:16
Speaker
I don't know. That's such a funny, what a strange interpretation now that I think about, of course you mean for the reader or the listener. But let's just go with this. So I guess I'll start with a question. Do you ever interview editors on the podcast?
01:03:31
Speaker
I have, I'm drawing a blank, but actually, you know, I interview, so I do this thing with the Adivis magazine, where I interview their monthly writer every single month, and I routinely, I also interview Jonah Ogles and Sayward Darby of them, so we get a little espresso shot of what it's been like, mainly to edit that piece, and then a few things that come to mind.
01:03:56
Speaker
And as some other people that primarily edit, I've drawn a blank. I've done nearly 300 of these, so there are some editor types in there. But yeah, I'm always game for more of those, that's for sure.
01:04:10
Speaker
Okay, cool. Well, I was going to I was just going to generally say, yeah, I would recommend interviewing somebody who's still, you know, actively editing and does that full time. And I just, one, I feel like editors just never get the recognition they're due. And I guess if you're a really good editor,
01:04:30
Speaker
I guess that's what makes a really good editor is that you're like, okay with being the support, right? Like you do all this amazing stuff in the background and you never really get any credit for it. So that's one thing, but two, I also feel like I just love to hear long time magazine editors or like, yeah, especially features editors, like talk about the craft of like structure for a story and helping writers.
01:04:56
Speaker
with, you know, get through hard points in their story and like how sometimes it's almost like, you know, you'll hear editors say like, oh, it's almost like being a therapist, right? Like, um, I just, I love hearing long time editors talk. I just, there's such like generally like kind, magnanimous people. Um, and so I guess, yeah. And if you're looking for
01:05:18
Speaker
somebody in particular to speak to, I'd love to recommend reaching out to my old mentor, Leah Flickinger, over at Bicycling and Runner's World and Popular Mechanics. She's done some really amazing work. She worked on the Runner's World piece that Mitch Jackson wrote about Ahmaud Arbery, 12 Minutes in a Life, which I guess that's my recommendation for readers. That's an amazing story. Have you read it?
01:05:42
Speaker
I have a little while. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She just she's just so good at what she does. So I guess that's my recommendation to you. And and to the readers, I would say they should read that story. It's really, really powerful. Nice. And I I desperately want to interview Daniel Zaleski, who he edits Patrick Radden, Keith, David Gran, a bunch of people at the New Yorker.
01:06:09
Speaker
And he's an amazing writer and reporter himself. His profile of Guillermo del Toro from a few years ago was just awesome. But he's just like the silent conductor behind so many of these rock stars that we know in The New Yorker. And so I was like, I desperately want to
01:06:31
Speaker
talk to him too and just to pick his brain about the very things that you're saying about how the structure decisions the maybe just a little sort of like okay just keep going just keep going I like and that's all you need to like that Dick Todd who used to edit the late Dick Todd he used to edit a Tracy Kidder's books like so often he would just be like okay just keep going very good keep going and that was that was it so it's like sometimes very subtle hand
01:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, man, I love it when an editor will just like cross out one line. And it's usually the last one that you thought is your like most amazing last line. And then you're like, wait, this is so much better. I is the opposite of keep going. It's like, OK, no, stop here. Well, Gloria, thank you so much for carving out the time to come on the show and talk a little shop. This is a lot of fun. And I can't wait to read what you come up with next. So thank you for the time and thank you for the work.
01:07:27
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun, Brendan. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy.
01:07:43
Speaker
Man, I dug that. I hope you did too. That was funny that she thought the recommendation I was asking for was for me. But to her in in glorious defense before you were recording. I actually were recording but I had the thing recording and I cut out a whole bunch before we before I actually like start the show. So a little inside baseball there.
01:08:08
Speaker
But I had asked her, because I forgot to prime the pump. I usually prime the pump by emailing him a book, hey, you know, I like to ask, guess a recommendation for the listeners at the end of the show. It's kind of a fun way to bring the airliner down. You hear me say it.
01:08:24
Speaker
So I asked her for that recommendation, but I just didn't say for the listeners so I assumed and you know what assuming gets you and so Because I didn't say that she just thought it she was a really good sport about it. She was like oh cool I already know what I'm gonna recommend. I was like awesome. This is cool. I can't wait till we get there And then she thought it was for me and it while it made for some funny tape didn't it?
01:08:50
Speaker
Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast wherever you podcast. So you get that little notification on CNF Friday and the rando time that the Atavus one drops. He'll hit your feet and you'll be like, shit, let's do this. How I know what I'm going to do. How when I'm washing my dishes or I'm walking my dog. Yeah. Consider leaving rating review if you're not too annoyed by me and what it is I stand for. Whatever.
01:09:20
Speaker
that happens to be. These were reviews of sorts. They mean the world and help validate the enterprise. Of course, feel free to share and link up to the show on social media. Being sure to tag the show at cnfpod so I can give you that digital fist bump.
01:09:37
Speaker
So for randomly, I just started kind of rewatching some comedians and cars getting coffee again. And I love how tight the shows are. They're very efficient. Yeah, of course. They're mildly irritating at times. But I love the rigor of the editing. Like I watch it for the editing.
01:09:56
Speaker
And it got me thinking of how I can make this show a bit more like that. So when they film that show, they're spending an entire day with, you know, Bridget Everett or whoever. And then they cut that show down to 15 minutes. It's incredible. And I guess in the edit, they probably just like are ruthless and just be like, well, cut all the doll stuff.
01:10:18
Speaker
You know, but it's something that's already have a conversation with someone you don't want to insult them. But in any course of a conversation, there are lags. And I guess if you really need to get rigorous, it's like you just got to compare relative to other spots in the conversation. If there's a lag, you got to cut the lag.
01:10:37
Speaker
or if there's a good nugget in the lag, I guess you'd just narrate it. Anyway, so it got me thinking about what that would look like for audio only, and I figured in the whole punk rock metal ethos of the show, you know, bridging certain things with the heavy metal music, maybe some narration, and then maybe just a quick, I pop in for a quick question or narration and let the guest speak and then have another little interlude
01:11:04
Speaker
I don't know, I might dig up some of the tape from my masters and toy around with taking, say, the conversation with Laura Hillenbrand, futzing around with maybe the best 15 minutes of that Hour Plus conversation. I mean, that one was so damn good. So finding only 15 minutes will be a struggle, but it might be a fun exercise. And I figure I'll just drop that for the Patreon audience for a test run so you can consider
01:11:30
Speaker
If you want more of that content, it actually resonates, and I think it will. I think it could be fun. That's extra incentive to get that exclusive thing over at Patreon. You can pick a tier and go shop. Shop around. I imagine some of you enjoy the current format and its current length of the show, but an interview show is kind of bland in its form. You know, in this interview, you just listened to it was number 300. So should I continue with the same formula? I don't know.
01:12:02
Speaker
You can always ping me on social or email me with thoughts or just any thoughts in general. I reply to people. I don't get that much email. Anyway, stay wild seeing efforts. Here's to 300. I guess here's to the next 300, right? Because one thing's for sure over the last nearly 10 years I've been doing this, if you can't do interviews. See ya.
01:12:41
Speaker
you