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Season Six: A Long Time Coming: Part Two, Megan
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In today’s episode, we talk about a major case update in a recent case and an older case out of New York.
https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2023/04/FELONY-COMPLAINT-HOLLEY.pdf
https://www.justiceformegan.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
Recap of Previous Episode
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:00:57
Speaker
So we're in the middle of a, like a two part thing. And I don't usually like to interrupt when I'm telling a story like that, but I feel like this is an okay place to do that because like we were telling sort of two separate stories and then, you know, so we got the story of Anna out last week and then this week will be something else.
Legal Proceedings and Plea Deals
00:01:22
Speaker
And i feel like this is a really good time to point out a couple of things that happened in the world. They're all related to one case. So this week, Monday night, a judge out in Idaho that's working on a Capitol case gets an email.
00:01:39
Speaker
That email says that it appears the defense and the prosecution have reached an agreement. Now, for those of you who don't know, setting up a trial involving ah possible capital ruling, I don't know how you want to look at it.
00:01:55
Speaker
a death penalty possible trial. It's a lot of work for the administrative staff. The way that you pull the jury pool can be different.
00:02:06
Speaker
Whether or not there's going to be arguments for a change of venue and potentially a change of potential pools of jurors, whether they're going sequestered. All of those things are going to start coming up with the lawyers. So a judge has to rule on those things and then start planning and plotting the trial with the court administrators.
00:02:23
Speaker
It is a very complex process. Judges don't want to just stop that when they hear there might be a plea deal in a complicated case. But in the fastest turnaround i have personally ever seen related to a Capitol case suddenly disappearing from the national headlines, Brian Koberger pled guilty in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table and getting, I believe it's five convictions,
00:02:54
Speaker
therefore four consecutive life without parole sentences, which means they would happen in order, waiving his right to appeal, including ah related to the sentencing. And I believe he pled to a burglary charge and got 10 years for that.
00:03:09
Speaker
ah This week, what'd you think about that? I was genuinely surprised because of, wow, we've only touched on the Idaho murders, like just sort of when big things were happening.
00:03:24
Speaker
We did that for a specific reason, but that doesn't mean I wasn't following it a little bit. And I thought he would ah maintain that. that He didn't do it until the end. I don't know if you thought that or not.
00:03:38
Speaker
I felt like he was guilty and I felt like the attacks would be on specific collection methods of evidence in order to like mitigate the process. Right. And so as we sort of went through, i don't know if you believe
00:03:59
Speaker
i believe There was rumbling. i didn't actually see it happen in court, but there was rumblings that um there was a second eyewitness that had come forward, which was the DoorDash driver from that evening. Correct.
00:04:13
Speaker
And i wondered how much that had to do with the plea,
Tactics in Death Penalty Cases
00:04:19
Speaker
right? Because the defense actually contacted the state and said, are you willing to offer us a plea? Now, I've said before...
00:04:30
Speaker
that it is a lot of times death is sought specifically to force a plea. It becomes a negotiating chip.
00:04:41
Speaker
Right, exactly. And this is so this is a case that warranted the death penalty, obviously. ah Not just because Brian Koberger did it. it The crime warranted the death penalty.
00:04:56
Speaker
And the crime was the very violent murder of four college students sleeping in their beds or in their beds in the comfort of their home. Right.
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah. and it was interesting because we had, you know, Brian Koberger was a PhD in, he was in the PhD for criminology at Washington state university.
00:05:27
Speaker
and He made the dumbest mistakes. He really did. He really, really did. I mean, like, that's what, and so part of me putting aside the deaths in this situation is going, you know that he thought he was the smartest guy in the room, right?
00:05:44
Speaker
And it's amazing to me that the amount of evidence they had I wasn't sure what tipped the scale for the defense, right?
00:06:00
Speaker
ah The defense has been kind of plugging along and putting forth the motions and, you know, everything that basically they've asked for that's been...
00:06:13
Speaker
going through the motions has been denied, right? And so all the evidence was standing and then there were rumblings that the DoorDash driver had potentially seen something that she would be able to testify about.
00:06:26
Speaker
and there I mean, I hate to even say this, but before even before the case you know went to trial, what they had provided just in the probable cause affidavits, like it was enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. It was, yeah. I would say that there was absolutely no doubt, but that's just me.
00:06:52
Speaker
And even the arguments that were being made to try and mount a defense were falling very, very short. um they There was recently an issue saying that there could be an alternate suspect because there was...
00:07:09
Speaker
two unidentified male DNAs that the state didn't bother identifying. One was like on the banister and one was somewhere else. And like, how does that compare to it being on the knife sheath?
00:07:23
Speaker
This case is sort of doomed from the start. It was interesting to a little bit about like what was happening during the, um, the the plea agreement, like from the perspective of what the state was going to present and like how it would have gone.
00:07:41
Speaker
um will say that like this case did not grab me. Like it was tragic when it first happened. I was very interested in Like finally who did this?
00:07:56
Speaker
Once they found him and like a few things came out over the course of several different hearings, I sort of checked out of it. um I mean, I'm still sort of interested in it, but I was provided was like, I read the probable cause affidavit.
00:08:13
Speaker
I had so much information. i was a hundred percent sure he was guilty, honestly. And The reason was evidence, not my opinion, right? It was the factual evidence that was put forward.
00:08:27
Speaker
And so the defense said, hey, let's talk about a plea. And the state ah decided to entertain it, right?
00:08:37
Speaker
yeah And obviously, even I know that the idea is... I just don't want to be put to death because ah defense attorney feels like it's their obligation to try and save their client's life, right?
00:08:52
Speaker
Correct. Okay. And so that's where she was at. And honestly, all the signs in this case pointed to him not only being convicted, but most likely being sentenced to death.
00:09:06
Speaker
correct for this There was really ifs, ands, buts about it. However, I wondered, the state entertaining that, especially with no appeals available to him, right, I think that that's a relief in some ways, right?
00:09:30
Speaker
But we all saw just a few weeks before that Karen Reed was practically acquitted of everything She was.
00:09:43
Speaker
She ultimately was she was. She was down to just the DWI, basically. Correct. And that was the what the jury did. And the fallout from that is the fact that I've heard the jurors some of the jurors talking, and basically anything that was of any that you had to think about, and you know the data and everything that was provided in that case, they basically disregarded it Yeah, they didn't know what to do with it. Like, I've never seen a jury that, like, and so I didn't watch this Karen Reed trial. I watched recaps of it, and I listened along to certain portions that I wondered about, and I looked at certain pieces but of evidence I wondered about. What I did get bombarded with for a day or two, maybe three, and now it's gone, was the absolute ignorance of the jurors.
00:10:37
Speaker
Like they had no idea why they were there, no idea what they were doing. And that's really on the prosecution, like not building a good jury. And i think that's like everything sort of revolved around that.
00:10:52
Speaker
Once these particular folks are on that jury, they're, There was nothing that anyone could do to make them any smarter or to make them follow like what the judge was saying. like And they all have, like for different reasons, there was ah among them, there were a conspiracy theorists. There was a wannabe lawyer. there was like There was a lot going on there that the more they talked, the more I went, wow.
00:11:15
Speaker
I don't even think Diddy's going to get convicted. And then... Diddy also did not get convicted? Not really. he couple violations of the Mann Act, but that's a max of, I think, if he got stacked on it with his criminal record, maybe 48 months in jail. But it'll probably be far, far less than that. the the main the The serious charges were he was acquitted on. Right. And and like, well, I mean, ah believe it's a disaster from the perspective that like with Diddy, like he had now, like everybody's like testified against him.
00:11:51
Speaker
He has to rebuild everything. So yeah but like everybody testified against him. Yeah. My take on him now And with both of these cases, Karen Reed and the Sean Combs trial, I like, I come at things from a defense perspective. I just was sick of Karen Reed.
00:12:09
Speaker
Like, She, and like kind of, and I'm sorry if you're listening from Massachusetts, I apologize. um Like pretty much the residents of Massachusetts now have done a thing for me where I have sort of this visceral reaction to how terrible it sounds and how weird it all is. And like, I just don't have an interest anymore in like cases from there right now.
00:12:39
Speaker
And that happened during the first trial. And they did so much nonsense related to... sort of, i don't know what you would call it all, but like the, we'll just call what it is.
00:12:55
Speaker
The dirty water they were pouring in the jury pool through social media had like such a like nonsensical effect on me. Like I, I just don't ever want to hear about her ever again.
00:13:09
Speaker
and I feel like that's the best thing I can offer John O'Keefe's family is like after this episode, i will pick and choose how I deal with that case in a way that reflects that. Right. And, you know, there was a substantial amount of sidelining going on. Right.
00:13:27
Speaker
there's a reason why you can't set out to taint a jury poll. And when you do so successfully...
00:13:39
Speaker
The hammer should fall. Now, I'm not saying that it's going to because I honestly don't know. But I brought all that up to say, I wonder how much Karen Reed's acquittal.
00:13:52
Speaker
influenced the state prosecutor in ah prosecuting Brian Koberger for the murders of the four University of Idaho students.
00:14:05
Speaker
I wonder how much it influenced his desire to offer a plea. I don't know. i mean, like I don't see them as the same. I understand where you're coming from, and I could definitely see...
00:14:19
Speaker
ah what I have started to recognize as like a changing tide in jury nullification. That's exactly what it is. Jury nullification. But it's... It's happening in a much more lopsided way than it used to.
00:14:35
Speaker
Like the idea used to be if you had committed a murder and the jury wanted to nullify it because of something the prosecution had done... like and the prosecution was pushing for the death penalty or life in prison or whatever, the jury would hit you with a crime that gave you three to five years in prison, which the way that this has been happening and the way that it's unfolded, and I think it's a slightly faster version now, but the way that it used to happen was you would basically end up with time served.
00:15:04
Speaker
Right, but all that is, is that is actually incentive for criminals, and i feel like everybody's sort of missing the boat. And if you're operating on facts that are not facts, right?
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. If you're relying on someone else to give context information and you're not critically thinking about things, then that is going to blow up in everybody's face.
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. and i think I think people are starting to worry. And this is where I, like, part of me hopes that this prosecutor in the b Brian Koberger case has just never heard of Karen Reed.
00:15:48
Speaker
I don't think that's possible, but, I mean, maybe. I do. I do. I think it's possible. He's really old, and, like, he's been around a long time. He may have heard of her.
00:15:59
Speaker
But it's possible he has not.
Impact on True Crime Media
00:16:01
Speaker
Well, I will tell you this. Ahead of the trial, the judge had already put out very strong guidelines and rulings on what was going to be allowed and not allowed like based on... it it just seemed like the judge was learning from the situation that happened in Massachusetts.
00:16:21
Speaker
I think the judge himself didn't want a circus. That's exactly why, but why would you even but why would you even dream you were about to have a circus? Well, because like all of the coverage, and that's what this is the whole reason that I wanted to cover this part.
00:16:38
Speaker
True crime is like like having their cake and eating it too off of like the case of the Idaho 4. I find the fact that he pled guilty like right ahead of the trial hilarious.
00:16:53
Speaker
Right, because there were people advocating that he wasn't the person. Right, and they were banking on like having those true crime c clicks and all those likes related to their terrible coverage of this trial.
00:17:08
Speaker
And that's on both sides of the fence, by the way. There were people that were like like, the truth is if you come out of your mouth and you say, I believe this evidence about Brian Koberger and he's guilty, Mallory's been a plea deal, there's nothing left to say.
00:17:21
Speaker
Exactly, which is why we didn't really cover it. Right. Because the the case itself was, so that is a, you know, it's not like once ever, but it's probably like once in a lifetime. And Brian Koberger went in the house and he killed four people in 16 minutes or whatever, right? Right. I don't necessarily think Brian Koberger was doing, i don't think that that's what he had in mind.
00:17:48
Speaker
I think that he had a different plan and it just went wrong. I can only imagine what it's like to like aim to be whatever it was he was aiming to be and then fail at it, right?
00:18:00
Speaker
What do you think he was trying to be Because I've never been able to wrap my head around this is how i see this crime, okay? And i and i this is speculation. For the most part. However, some of it does have factual evidence to back it up.
00:18:15
Speaker
He was going to sexually assault Maddie Mogan. And when he went in the house and up the stairs to her room,
00:18:26
Speaker
he i this i feel like I don't feel like Kaylee Gonsalves was in the bed with Maddie. I think she was in her room and she heard something.
00:18:40
Speaker
and she So Kaylee walked across. She left her dog in her bedroom, walked across, and he was attacking Maddie. And I think that's when it became what it ended up being.
00:18:54
Speaker
because he did not get the opportunity to sexually assault Maddie. And because Kaylee interrupted it, if you listen or read the probable cause affidavit, i the roommate DM, she says ah that she heard Kaylee say someone's in the house.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And then she thought she heard Kaylee playing with her dog. And so Kaylee, I feel like, I don't feel like Kaylee was in the room already. I realize a lot of people say that, you know, they were both in there asleep, but it it seems like Kaylee was looking down the stairs at Zanna who had just, you know, done whatever with her DoorDash food.
00:19:42
Speaker
And she was like on TikTok. And I think Kaylee said, someone's here Okay. opened the door, and the fight of her life ensued.
00:19:54
Speaker
and And so in the meantime, he didn't get to sexually assault Maddie Mogan. like heat That was his plan. that Because of the knife sheath being dropped, I don't think, I don't even know if he was ever going to use the knife.
00:20:11
Speaker
However, Kaylee suffered wounds to her Like, her liver and her lungs were lacerated.
00:20:22
Speaker
And it was almost as if the person who had done it, which we know is Brian Koberger now, had, like, watched all the K-Bar training videos, like how you, like, take somebody out, right?
00:20:35
Speaker
oh yeah, yeah. And so then killed... he has killed Maddie and Kaylee and then Xana just kind of standing there waiting to hear, like, I guess for Kaylee to come out and be like, oh, it was nobody, right? Yeah. um That's not what happened.
00:20:54
Speaker
he's He materializes, comes down the stairs, and she runs for it trying to get away from him because he's like— It's okay. I'm going to help you. Right. And then he kills her.
00:21:07
Speaker
and then Ethan laying there in bed, he severed his, one of his arteries and then carved up his legs. Ethan never even knew what happened. Right.
00:21:18
Speaker
Okay. He was mad because he didn't get to sexually assault Maddie. Xana saw him, but Ethan, he was just pissed, right? Yeah.
00:21:29
Speaker
Because he's like, here's this guy laying here with this girl. I can't get a girl to save my life. He never saw the roommate. She saw him, but if he had seen her, he would have killed her Yeah.
00:21:41
Speaker
Do you think there's like a weird incel or like whatever you want to call it? There's no question. you think that's, that's where Brian Koberger is coming from motive? law He was going to sexually assault Maddie Morgan. And if she, let's say she had drank so much, she didn't wake up or anything. I think he would have sexually assaulted her and left.
00:22:02
Speaker
Okay. But that's
Koberger's Background and Motives
00:22:04
Speaker
not what happened. Right. Because there was so much pushback. Now,
00:22:11
Speaker
If I'm not sure, like my version is different than what I've heard people say, but we know different things that occurred. He he went by that house like 23 times. Yeah, it was, that was some of the stuff they were talking about there was interesting how they had managed to um get the resources together to go back through and see just how he had been plotting and planning this.
00:22:41
Speaker
Right. And so for the, he had trained himself somehow ah to use a K-bar very efficiently. and everybody that said like, oh, you can't possibly do that in 16 minutes. Well, you can when you're just shut um cutting arteries, right? Yeah.
00:23:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And, you know, Kaylee's parents had said that she and Maddie were both found in Maddie's bed and they thought Kaylee was the target because of her injuries. And they said, as far as they were concerned, looking at the two of their autopsies, they did not look like they had been killed in the same way at all.
00:23:25
Speaker
And that's because fought thought And Kay leave because she was awake and Maddie was asleep. And I don't know where he was in the process or what drew her attention to the fact that somebody was in the house.
00:23:43
Speaker
But she went in to see what was going on. And I have a feeling he just cut... one of Maddie's arteries as well, but he fought Kaylee.
00:23:55
Speaker
And then he fought Xana, and Xana was trying to get back to her room to shut the door. and Without question, he thought—now, I know they say that there was no connection, and it may have just been on social media. However, he caught sight of Maddie Morgan at some point, and he felt like she should have acknowledged something, whether he said hi to her, whether he sent her some sort of message, whether whatever it was, right? Right.
00:24:34
Speaker
he felt like he should get what he wanted from the situation. However, it is entirely possible Maddie reminded him of someone else, right?
00:24:47
Speaker
And it had nothing to do with her, but at some point, he caught sight of her. Her room was the farthest away from any entrance point. So he basically had to, he passed by Zanna's room, he went up the stairs, passed by Kaylee's room to get to Maddie's room.
00:25:08
Speaker
So he was on a mission, right? And the people who, Kaylee ruined it for him, which is why she was severely injured in the in before dying.
00:25:21
Speaker
And then Xana just saw him. and then Ethan was a guy that was there sleeping with a girl, right? I mean, that's something he couldn't ever do.
00:25:32
Speaker
But it's it's just a really sad situation because if you think about it, he was like 27 and... and ah Maddie was 21. And that's a lot, that's a big gap.
00:25:45
Speaker
Okay, because you're talking about being out of college, you know, he was in a doctorate program. And it it seemed like A punishment for, one thing, you can't make people want to be around you or want to be your significant other or whatever. That's a really weird thing to sort of put yourself in a position of.
00:26:10
Speaker
And it seemed like Brian Koberger just never really adjusted socially. And i don't know why he felt like he needed to branch out like he did, but I think he knew everything was going south because, you know, he'd been fired from his a teaching position and, like, some other stuff had happened, and I feel like he knew everything was about to come crumbling down.
00:26:40
Speaker
But again, i maintain, I feel like he was going to sexually assault Maddie Mogan, and if that had occurred without incident, I think he would have left.
00:26:51
Speaker
Yeah. Jumping into a quadruple murder makes no sense. And I've had trouble wrapping my head around what he thought he was doing. So him attempting to commit like a nighttime sexual assault with a knife, I believe that makes a lot of lot of this sort of come together for me. In terms of being able to look at it and go, why did he kill them the way that he killed them?
00:27:18
Speaker
I can't get that idea out of my head that like... If he's a serial rapist, but meaning key is that's his plan. He's not planning to commit like tons of rape to bla bla or or murders.
00:27:34
Speaker
He's just planning this one rape right now. But like I'm picturing him as the type of serial rapist that's like a burglar, goes in does his thing, moves on. That's interesting to me. And it's the right timeline in his life because he's clearly been obsessing over this.
00:27:50
Speaker
And it's starting to cost them things. Well, right. And see, that is, it it took a lot for him to build up the courage. Like, you can actually see him coming and going. He was leaving and and coming back, like, repeatedly that night, right?
00:28:09
Speaker
And you can see that there's an internal struggle happening because he drives up the road and then he, he like a minute later, drives down the road and leaves and then comes back five minutes later and then leaves again. And I think that the fact that he finally got his nerve up to do this thing that for whatever reason he was fixated on doing and it got interrupted,
00:28:36
Speaker
That's exactly why he was able to kill all the people like he did because he was so pissed. Can you imagine? like Oh, I mean, not really, but, like, I've seen this behavior in people.
00:28:47
Speaker
like Right, exactly. that I know that you can't personally imagine what it's like to not be able to successfully complete your horrible crime, but it was a lot for him to do it to begin with, and the fact that he struggled with it so much is exactly why he had so much rage in him, and a seven-inch knife, right?
00:29:08
Speaker
I've been wondering why the knife that he chose, like, was it just in case I have to kill them? i So he he was going to get away with what he did no matter what the cost, right? That's the whole point. He's he's a PhD criminology major, right?
00:29:27
Speaker
He has to get away with it because he's smarter than everybody else when it comes to criminology type things, right? Which is weird because he drove his own vehicle and he just went back and forth in front of a security camera, which was crazy.
00:29:42
Speaker
a knife is something that You could say you had it for a different reason, right? For one thing. Have it for a variety of reasons. But I think the only thing he was going to do with that knife is ensure that he was able to get out of there without being caught.
00:30:00
Speaker
I think that that was his point. But see, it changed. it just like Is this a kidnapping? now You don't think he's going to kidnap her? No, he was going to. He didn't even want her to wake up.
00:30:12
Speaker
See, I think that's a mistake. Why? well My thinking? No, no, his thinking. Well, he had been Googling like ah porn that involved sex with drugged women, unconscious women, that kind of thing before.
00:30:30
Speaker
And so that's why I think he literally... was He didn't even care if she woke up. he was going to I imagine he's a virgin. okay He's old for a virgin. And he was like, that's it. I'm doing it. right And this was his big plan. which is I mean, he's off in the head.
00:30:49
Speaker
great no question. but And then it he was so infuriated. With the fact that, like, this other girl... in That's the other thing.
00:31:02
Speaker
It has come out that he's very misogynistic. Yeah. And he ah he talks down to women, which doesn't help the situation at all.
00:31:13
Speaker
But as far as him not being able to interact with females... But he... probably had uncontrollable rage just because Kaylee interrupted him.
00:31:31
Speaker
He didn't get to do what he was going to do. And, you know, the whole thing was like 16 minutes. It's literally his 15 minutes of fame and it will now come to an end. and like, I'm interested to see if he does this because
00:31:53
Speaker
Let say a couple of things here before I get ahead myself. I'm interested to see how he now reacts because he's been very tight lipped.
Critique of True Crime Content Creators
00:32:04
Speaker
We have not heard statements from him really. And i know that content creators everywhere are going a little nutty over this case, which I felt like was a mistake.
00:32:18
Speaker
And like, if you're, doing entire podcasts that are kind of geared towards covering this type of trial, I think that's a mistake. But for those of you out there just tuning into my nonsense and how I talk about these things, this is a very boring situation for me.
00:32:39
Speaker
It's a tragic situation from the terms of four people lost their lives because this guy had some kind of raging heart on. In my opinion, he had a fantasy in his head that would have fueled him to do like, like normal things, but he did not have the self control or the personality type or the understanding or the upbringing to know that that's all it was.
00:33:13
Speaker
Like he had been watching this porn. He decided to make it a reality. I don't personally think that serial killers are these brilliant creatures or the these completely dumbass creatures.
00:33:26
Speaker
I think they're mostly normal, average to below average iq even the ones they call geniuses, who just have ah lack of understanding of how empathy and sympathy work and no impulse control.
00:33:44
Speaker
Other than that, a lot of them have become very boring to me. And this case was not super interesting to me. And this plea is less interesting to me. The reason is because it happens every day.
00:33:59
Speaker
It just doesn't always happen to be attached to these four beautiful young college students whose lives were tragically taken by this person who had no impulse control and had no real life outside of what he was doing.
00:34:13
Speaker
He had torpedoed his life So I think these are the people that should get the least amount of attention in true crime. I kind of agree, except for the victims, of course. Now, if this had gone unsolved, we would be covering it, right? Yep.
00:34:28
Speaker
I'd be interested it then to find out what type of person had done this type of monstrous crime. Right. But I can guarantee you, you were asking, like, I'm interested to see what he does now. I can guarantee you he did not plan for this.
00:34:42
Speaker
and Okay. He did not think he was ever going to be caught. Yeah. Well, I'm just interested if he starts giving interviews and like feeds the content. Because if you want to continue being a monster, that's all you got left. His plea deal is pretty rock solid.
00:34:56
Speaker
Unless they come up with something that he was spoon-fed or led by the nose into this plea deal and wasn't really competent, this plea deal will hold.
00:35:07
Speaker
The judge asked lot of questions about that, though. Yeah. And he he confirmed he was of sound mind and body, and nobody had offered him anything other than, you know, the life sentences in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table.
00:35:22
Speaker
And, you know, the hearing started with a civics lesson with the judge having to explain that no matter how many people called his office, he could not make the prosecution, the state, ah seek the death penalty.
00:35:40
Speaker
People were calling the judge, and he said, like, this has caused a huge problem. We've had all of these things called, and except for a few that went to law enforcement, none of them had been even read or entertained. and But somebody was advocating Like, call the judge, tell him to seek the death penalty, tell him to make the state seek the death penalty.
00:36:03
Speaker
So he had to give a civics lesson, which was that he is part of the judicial branch of government and the state, the prosecution, is part of the executive branch of government.
00:36:15
Speaker
And it is completely up to the state and the state's prerogative with for if they're going to accept life in prison or pursue a death sentence.
00:36:27
Speaker
My concern would have been we get one fruit loop on the jury, right?
00:36:35
Speaker
I think that's a, okay. I'm going to go with it, but I think that's a little harsh, but yeah, okay. We get one fruit loop on the jury. what Okay, that being said, I've i've read the probable cause out affidavit. There's enough evidence there that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:36:53
Speaker
Okay. And it's direct evidence and then circumstantial evidence. Both of them are very strong. So that's why I say Fruit Loop, because like you would have to ignore the evidence to think he didn't do it. But see, then you get either he walks free or a mistrial, right? Right.
00:37:11
Speaker
And i that actually became a real fear of mine suddenly. Yeah, and this has been something that we're kind of building towards. And that was one of the reasons I entertained this for today's episode ahead of the story that we were telling was it it it is breaking news. And you and I do have a vested interest in like you know interesting things that happen in the true crime world. And the rug being pulled out of all these creators' like plans where there's not going to be this Brian Koberger trial process
00:37:45
Speaker
circus so to speak is highly entertaining to me and i i imagine he had no idea yeah and transpiring out there because no i don't think would have comprehended it anyways even if he knew i am sickened by people who took action thinking like you know free brian coberger Yeah.
00:38:11
Speaker
So you say Fruit Loop, I say like Bro Burger or whatever they're calling them. And like there could have been some kind of campaign to derail the trial itself. I mean, there's been a lot of interesting back and forth in the motions and answers um from the perspective of like reading materials. It's not really something you can bring on a podcast and like look at it go, oh, here we
Defense Strategies and Social Media Influence
00:38:32
Speaker
go.
00:38:32
Speaker
like i Like I didn't find it that kind of interesting because it was all pretty normal. I've seen a lot of irresponsible um content creators. Yeah. With this case in particular. Yeah. And so this was one of those cases for me that like I said, I'm so glad that it sort of has this boring ending to this part of it.
00:38:55
Speaker
Now, I don't know. Have you seen our pro... but What did you call them? Bro burgers? Yeah, was just making something up there. like, I've seen different things like that. It was the people who believed he was being railroaded, which was not happening at all.
00:39:11
Speaker
And... But anyway, they were... they They had different reasons that they believed um he was not guilty of these crimes. And... I, they they were wrong.
00:39:24
Speaker
And for every single thing that anybody would ever say, i have a response for it. I just, I'm not going to list them here. But have they said now like, oh, he must be really guilty? Or are they taking it like, oh, he was made to do that?
00:39:39
Speaker
i think it's a little too early to tell like what's happening there. I mean, there's always this camp of people and like i straddle a weird fence and like you point this out, not necessarily on the air, but like in, in terms of a lot of things, I really want to see unsolved cases close. People get their names back some level of like knowing who the perpetrator was.
00:40:02
Speaker
um And like in some instances, I really want them to like be behind bars to some degree, but I'm also Like the judge said there, I'm an impartial member of the judicial system who is tasked with a specific set of things to gather facts and to chase opinions that other people have. And largely, like I do that from a defense perspective and try and maintain the straddling defense. I have to go over a little bit, like in order to look for...
00:40:40
Speaker
mitigating factors, I would say, um and sometimes contradictory evidence to what the state has brought. I've also come to know that like the prosecution, in a lot of instances, is...
00:40:52
Speaker
ah you using either methodology or personnel in the form of, you know, agents and police agencies and and all of the administrative folks who come with law enforcement who don't have the same sort of code that I have, which is, you know, to stick to facts.
00:41:12
Speaker
um So I straddle that fence and I look at a case like Brian Koberger, And I sort of stick to facts. And the truth is, no other suspect was going to emerge from the pile of facts that had been developed. And you had so many agencies on it so quickly that it was difficult to dispute some of it.
00:41:37
Speaker
I still have questions about some of the way things were gathered and and ultimately like how they knew so quickly. But I can see it now. like I can see the big picture of It's a ton of resources but put into this case.
00:41:53
Speaker
um And that's another thing that like has started to worry me about people who go, oh it was just so expensive. The investigation and the trial was so expensive. um i I would agree that's concerning.
00:42:06
Speaker
um One of the things, just really quick, there was issues over the DNA, the IgG usage. Yeah. And just for clarification, um you know, if they run a crime scene DNA sample and it comes back to a relative of somebody, that's just a tip.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's literally a lead, an investigative lead. and there's absolutely nothing that's ever going to stop that from happening because like Brian Koberger has no right to privacy of his relatives DNA that they've put out there willingly.
00:42:47
Speaker
Right, but we do have to argue these things out in court to set precedent and to set understanding and use. I didn't, like I said, I didn't ultimately land where I'm looking at this and I go, that group was out of line or this group was out of line or that agency did something that violated his constitutional rights. Like, I didn't land there for this case. And that's what i know that's what ultimately made me look at it and go, I don't like i don't see ah an issue here.
00:43:12
Speaker
Right. There was no issue. It was very thoroughly investigated. And there's it. It's interesting how it played out. And it did take they they found him very quickly, even though in the meantime, because of the nature of the crime. Yeah.
00:43:32
Speaker
It was horrific, right? Yeah. and you know, you've got, that's a college town, and you've got all these college students wondering if they're going to be sleeping in their bed there next, right? yeah Because essentially, that's what happened. Out of absolutely nowhere, this guy went in this house and killed four of the residents.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah. And when that is occurring, it seems like the days just go on and on and on, right? But I think it was 46 or 47 days total, which is not long.
00:44:06
Speaker
no And they kept everything that they had close. They didn't release certain information specifically to not give away too much, right? Right, right.
00:44:19
Speaker
And I don't know if you recall this or not. i never knew that the I never knew that the door dash driver was a female. um knew that they were cleared, but they didn't. I don't think they said one way or the other, but they just said they knew the door dash driver was cleared, right?
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I remember...
00:44:44
Speaker
I remember something about the DoorDash driver coming up. And, like, ah i don't know if you remember this, but there was, like, a food truck nearby that had, ah ah like, a rolling 24-hour camera or, like, a really long camera. Yeah, with the hoodie guy, right? Like, I got kind of sucked into all of that for a minute thinking. But that was, like, early days when it was, like, we have no idea what happened.
00:45:09
Speaker
And I couldn't help but think back to like Speck, Richard Speck and Bundy, which are that's who you were mentioning. Like um the people that did this in such a horrific fashion. i think Speck ended up only really being a mass murderer, but Bundy was a serial killer who had escaped. And, you know, there were other things along the way that like, I think we were learning a lesson to dump the resources early into a case like this to prevent other murderers.
00:45:37
Speaker
So I don't remember like that I ever assigned a gender to certain people, but I think I assumed male on several of those.
00:45:48
Speaker
The reason they were able to clear the DoorDash driver so quickly was because she was female, and there was no question that this was a male killer because of a female a female would be less likely to be physically capable of doing what they saw had happened.
00:46:05
Speaker
Right. And we had an eyewitness saying a man with bushy eyebrows. And then we have the DNA that comes back and it has a male profile. So all of those things come into play. So yeah, that probably is like absolutely why they cleared her so early.
00:46:20
Speaker
Because it was a girl, right? Exactly. and But it never crossed my mind that it was a female. and ah But they didn't say one word they way or the other. I just thought, like how much would it suck to be the DoorDash driver who did that, right? I thought that too. because And i think i assumed I think I just sort of assumed Yeah, me too.
00:46:40
Speaker
Because the time, like, I don't, I don't know. It just seemed like something a guy would be doing, but it did come out that it was a female and she had something to say. Like, I don't know that they've released it, but she had something to testify about and she was going to be an eyewitness. So whatever it was, i've heard some rumors recently about her, but I don't, um, I haven't been able to like confirm it all.
00:47:06
Speaker
to my satisfaction. I heard she popped up on body camera somewhere and mentioned it, but i don't know if that's actually her, or that's someone else saying it. Well, and I wonder if that's what tipped the scales, right? Maybe. Yeah. If you're a defense attorney and you suddenly realize that like that person is very credible or like saw something important that you maybe didn't think of when you were getting your discovery together, maybe.
00:47:29
Speaker
Well, once they showed what they were going to show, There was nothing, there was not going to be a defense to be mounted. I mean, they just couldn't get around it because every which corner they turned, there was another something to show that, no, yes, he did do it, right? yeah So I don't know what tipped the scales, but we're we're never going to know a lot of stuff now, right? Yeah, you're right.
00:47:57
Speaker
And I think that that that might have been something that they could have asked for. Yeah. Because in court, the judge just said, he asked him very plain questions, right?
00:48:12
Speaker
And he's in co-worker said yes or no And it wasn't like, you know, I'm sure you remember BTK confessing or whatever, but it seems like that might've helped. But, you know, I've had in my head all along what happened and i don't know how much that's going to help anybody. Yeah.
00:48:34
Speaker
It's over. Largely. It absolutely is. But it makes a whole lot more sense in my brain, at least, that you've got a loser who planned to sexually assault a particular female. Yeah.
00:48:47
Speaker
And he just so happened to have a knife that when things went wrong... he used on the victim, the person who interrupted, and then the person who saw him, and then the guy laying in the bed. That's what it was. he I don't think he had any intention. Now, he didn't have a problem doing it, obviously. i just don't think he intended to kill four people when he went in that house. He was going to finally act out the fantasy that he had been having. Yeah.
00:49:21
Speaker
Which is gross. Yeah, it is it is gross. It's gross. He is... um he What he deserves now to just completely fade from the spotlight. And, like, this crime becomes, you know, something that... that gives closure to family members and they're allowed to remember their loved ones and and whatever measures they want to remember them. And now it's, it's over. And I know like, I look, there's a part of this that you were taught. You touched on this talking about the judge.
00:49:54
Speaker
um I hope people get a lesson from this. You should not be emailing prosecutors. You should not be emailing judges. You should actually just like, like let the process play out Well, and social media has opened that way up, it seems like.
00:50:12
Speaker
Yeah, and it it is really disruptive. like we We have a case um that I've been on for long time, and it's a conspiracy-laden case because there's this big conspiracy that resurges every six months or so, and it disrupts like the administrative part of our judicial system locally.
00:50:32
Speaker
And to the point that we had sort of a lower-key week this the last week like that you and I are recording this. And because of that lower key week, like I had more time with some of the attorneys I don't normally talk to you because I do major felonies. I don't spend a lot of time on that like it's And it's not that I never do anything. It's just like I'm more social with them um because they cover misdemeanors and domestic violence and DUIs and things like that. That's they what they're really good at.
00:51:03
Speaker
But one of them approached me and asked about one of the cases I've been working on. Did I know this crazy conspiracy? And like I have like saved on my desk a folder of all the conspiracy stuff. And I like opened it up and they were like, oh, my God.
00:51:16
Speaker
um Because they had gotten the information from a deputy. when they just happened to be doing an appeal in our, you know, superior court, which is not where they normally go. And, they thought it was going to be news to me when in fact it's been going on for years.
00:51:30
Speaker
And, It does disrupt when like it pops on social media and everybody starts emailing people about it. and And my interaction with judges is largely done through attorneys unless I have a specific thing I'm called to do.
00:51:44
Speaker
So even within the system, there are rules that you should be following, let alone if you're outside of it. and I'm not saying never... you know, participate from the perspective of public interest.
00:51:56
Speaker
I'm just saying participate within the process so that your voice can actually be heard because otherwise it has to be ignored. Yeah, I would agree with that.
00:52:07
Speaker
And I realized that a lot of people wanted Brian Koberger to get the death penalty. However, um that would come with years and years and years of never ending appeals.
00:52:19
Speaker
And he would more than likely die of old age in prison before he was ever put to death. Yeah. I looked up a lot of statistics about Idaho's death row, and I was like, this guy's never going to die like by the hand of the stick. There's only nine people on it. Yeah. And think the last execution was 13 or 14 years ago, right Something like that. it's It's been a long time, but this is a situation where because...
00:52:45
Speaker
He's not going to be put to death and he's waived his right to appeal. That's it. Yeah. And so we have this whole other story and I'm going to um, I'm going segue into that because I think, you know, that's what we owed. We got our hour of this insanity out. Do you have anything else though about Coburg or not? Oh, four.
00:53:06
Speaker
Nope. That's it. i will find guilty It's over. yeah I'm going to segue us into the other one then. We kind of we've left off last episode, and i ah originally i was going to put these two cases together, but the truth is I had a lot of opinions about it, and so did you, so I wanted to make it its own episode.
00:53:22
Speaker
But this is another case update episode where it's it's an interesting episode to me. It has a lot of rabbit holes you can go down and it's, it does tie into like this year.
00:53:36
Speaker
And that means for me, like it's very kind of similar to the Anna Misajewska case that we had talked about. This case actually starts a long time ago though.
00:53:48
Speaker
um And this, this case has origins in the town of Wallkill up in New York. Are you familiar with that area? It seems like it should be, but it doesn't actually ring a bell. Okay, it's Orange County in New York. So, like, um we've we've kind of, whether we wanted to or not, we have um ended up talking about this over the years, where it's a populous county that has, like, it's it's up by Poughkeepsie and Newburgh.
00:54:22
Speaker
So, it's, like, um above Long Island, right? That's what I was going to say. It's closer to the city than it is to upstate. Right. But this case doesn't feel like that. This case feels like kind of the middle of nowhere when you're like looking at it.
00:54:38
Speaker
um I'm going to go ahead and throw out that there's a website for this one that you can go down called justiceformeghan.com. They've done a really good job keeping a lot of this case together. It's one of the sources for today.
00:54:49
Speaker
um We also use Lohud, L-O-H-U-D dot com. ah We use some NBC News. um There's plenty right now going on to talk about with this case that is crazy. um And i wanted I picked like three elements of it today that I that i wanted to talk about.
00:55:11
Speaker
um One is actually from NBC News in April of 2024 from a guy named ah Tim Stello. And then oh one of them just popped up and and became a thing ah May
Unsolved Murder of Megan McDonald
00:55:24
Speaker
of this year.
00:55:25
Speaker
And um that also popped up in the Rockland-Westchester Journal News. Um, but I'm going to start out with, um, just this website, which I believe is maintained by the family. There's also a Facebook page.
00:55:38
Speaker
Um, this is an older case. So it's, ah it's very interesting to me to see all these elements together in one place. Um, they're doing a very good job of keeping this case sort of running.
00:55:49
Speaker
Um, and, uh, you can kind of go down the rabbit hole if that's what you're wanting to do. So I thought ah what I would do is sort of lay this out and in a storytelling style so you understand what's happening. And then you'll see along the way, like as we go sort of backwards through some things.
00:56:09
Speaker
But March 14th, 2003 at in the morning, there's this place called freezer road And Freezer Road is close to an apartment complex called Kensington Manor.
00:56:23
Speaker
This is in the town of Wallkill, New York. A resident there in Kensington Manor hears a car with a loud stereo system coming down Freezer Road and coming into the complex.
00:56:35
Speaker
And it's after midnight. I don't know about you, but I have a few people that... have, I don't know who they have. um I'm pretty isolated where I am, but I don't know if it's friends or family members or renters or household members or what, but they'll go down the road late at night.
00:56:52
Speaker
And I notice, like if I'm particularly, if I'm asleep and it wakes me up, I notice, but I have noticed a recent trend where my, um the cameras I have like on my house, one of them in particular is very sensitive to sound.
00:57:07
Speaker
And I can tell you somebody's work schedule because every day 3
00:57:13
Speaker
the the camera catch captures ah bass sound. And then every day at 1.30 in the morning, it captures that bass sound again, like coming and going the That means they're always blasting their tunes, huh? Yeah, they're always blasting something. And I can never hear the song.
00:57:30
Speaker
can only hear the bass. Yeah, I can only hear the booming of the bass. Well, it's really funny because in my neighborhood, it's the loud truck motors.
00:57:43
Speaker
Right, right. And they've actually appeared on the show at times if I don't click the mute button in time. Well, there's a point in time here where we have this massive solar farm being built around us and we could hear that.
00:57:55
Speaker
Right, yeah, i remember that. and And then we have um we have trains six times a day, freight trains and passenger trains. So while I'm not really close to a highway or anything, I am close enough that the train catches on some of the recordings.
00:58:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing. You never know what all is going on around you until you try to record. Right. And for whatever reason, this person in Kensington Manor, they noticed the music.
00:58:22
Speaker
um Not only did they notice it, because like I said, I look at my cameras and I see it kind of after the fact sometimes, and my house is pretty sound insulated itself. This person does something unusual.
00:58:37
Speaker
They look out the window and see two cars. They see a white Mercury Sable go by. And they see that it's being followed closely by what they think is a dark hatchback, possibly a Honda Civic.
00:58:53
Speaker
And from their testimony, we get that that Honda Civic or other dark hatchback is the source of this booming bass stereo system sound.
00:59:06
Speaker
Minutes later, the two cars and the music, they go back past her window a second time. So this is March 14, 2003. The next event that's kind of important is on March 14th.
00:59:24
Speaker
So later in the day, it's daylight out. A different resident notices that that Mercury Sable is parked kind of catty corner in the back of the complex.
00:59:42
Speaker
Now, While this is happening, um the person who's potentially driving that Mercury Sable is named Megan McDonald. Her coworkers over the course of the 14th, so essentially where our story started was kind of the end of the day on the 13th coming into the early morning hours of the 14th.
01:00:04
Speaker
The car is found later that day. And over the course of the 14th and the 15th, families, friends, coworkers, they start calling her phone when she doesn't show up for work. And when they don't hear back from her, they get a little frantic because they're used to engaging with her.
01:00:21
Speaker
And then on March 15th, 2003, at about 1 p.m., a man and his nephew discover Megan's body on their property off of a place called Bowser Road.
01:00:39
Speaker
Now, according to her gravestone, Her date of death is March 15th, but investigators have always indicated that she died in those early morning hours of March 14th. So around the time someone reported hearing that booming bass sound or shortly thereafter.
01:00:59
Speaker
If you follow Freezer Road, you could potentially follow it about four miles and come out on Bowser Road. According to everything I've seen, it is about a...
01:01:14
Speaker
Six to 11 minute drive. i And again. If you're talking. 1230. One o'clock in the morning.
01:01:25
Speaker
and Probably not going to run through a lot of traffic. ah But we now. Have a body. And it is the body of Megan McDonald. According to police reports. News outlets.
01:01:37
Speaker
And court documents. She has been beaten to death. Same day. March fifteenth an ADA is assigned to cover this case, and her name is Mary Ellen Black-Albanese.
01:01:50
Speaker
She's an assistant ADA. She is on her way to a St. Patrick's Day party. She gets a call from the Middletown State Police Headquarters. She will keep this case until she retires, and that's going to be 16 years later.
01:02:09
Speaker
March 14th passes, that is the first anniversary of Meghan McDonald's death, March 14th, 2004, and then March 14th, 2005 passes, second anniversary, and then March 14th, 2006 passes.
01:02:29
Speaker
That's the third anniversary of Meghan McDonald's death, and not much is known about what happened to her still. Now, January 13th of 2007 is our first major event.
01:02:46
Speaker
A man named Edward Hawley, who, by all counts, had been having a physical relationship with Meghan McDonald until just weeks before her death, um and who is reported to have been her plug or connection for marijuana, he's in a car accident.
01:03:03
Speaker
And in this car accident, he is paralyzed from the waist down. He ends up being cited for aggravated unlicensed operator violations, driving without a license, failure to keep right, imprudent speed, and a seatbelt violation, as well as DWI.
01:03:23
Speaker
And on March 14th, 2007, the fourth anniversary of Megan McDonald's death passes. Now, December 2007, so same year,
01:03:36
Speaker
so same year as the fourth anniversary, Edward Hawley receives a conditional discharge for aggravated unlicensed operator. He's convicted, but he is not put in jail to serve a sentence, and he is not put on probation for anything.
01:03:56
Speaker
So we then move out of 2007 into March of 2008, and we pass the fifth anniversary of Megan McDonald's death. A couple of things happen.
01:04:11
Speaker
The first one is known as Hoovler's first call. So this is five years after the murder of Megan McDonald in April of 2008. An ADA from this area, who's now in private practice, calls senior DA John Giedel and says that he is representing someone who is allegedly involved in the murder of Megan McDonald.
01:04:42
Speaker
According to his statement, his client may be willing to turn themselves in if they can come to a plea arrangement.
01:04:51
Speaker
Then there's two more significant events.
01:04:56
Speaker
That lawyer and Albanese, who has the case, they began talking. Now, the family or whoever is maintaining this timeline puts this up as July 30th of 2008. They say that there are a series of 10 phone calls about an unnamed client between Albanese and Hoover.
01:05:16
Speaker
Albanese has notes quoting Hoover as saying, I have a client who approached me about potentially negotiating a deal on his behalf. He states that he was involved in the Megan McDonald case and that had he had some information that a Stanley ball-peen hammer was she used.
01:05:34
Speaker
going throw this out there for a second. For those of you who don't know what that is, that is a terrible way to be beaten to death.
01:05:44
Speaker
The next note in the timeline is July 30th, again, 2008. According to Hoover and the notes that ADA Albanese took,
01:05:57
Speaker
that there was very little principal or accomplice distinguishing the persons involved in Meghan McDonald's murder. They were all, quote, acting in concert.
01:06:12
Speaker
Now, I'm going to go ahead and say that there are social media posts out there about this. There's an entire um Facebook group dedicated to justice for Meghan McDonald's.
01:06:24
Speaker
um There is one major element that I caught my attention. I was going to talk about that here. And this is a, like, I just gave you enough to get you through about the sixth anniversary because like events are still happening in this case.
01:06:42
Speaker
And again, like we were just talking about in the previous episode, you have multiple years that have passed. In this case, it's a lot more years. You've got 21 years that have passed when we start getting major updates.
01:06:56
Speaker
I think that families who are involved in losing a loved one and spend 21 years wondering what happened to them ah probably...
01:07:09
Speaker
are stressed to a point that we can't possibly understand. Some of the things that you will read online about this are from that emotional perspective, but I will say they have done a very good job fighting for this young lady and advocating for her.
01:07:22
Speaker
She truly has a series of champions. And in the two decades since her body was found, they have held events for every anniversary. They have placed billboards around the area and they have maintained social media and a website related to this.
01:07:39
Speaker
But once there's an arrest, it creates more problems than answers. Now, that actually starts also with NBC News in April of 2023. There's an article that pops up, and it says, we never gave up, and we're all on Megan's team.
01:07:58
Speaker
This is according to a press conference that the authorities hold jointly after an arrest that's made two thousand and the 2003 murder of Megan McDonald in Milwaukee, New York. They arrest Edward Hawley for second-degree murder.
01:08:12
Speaker
And this article is going to be updated multiple times over the years. But it starts with, last month marked the 20-year anniversary of the murder of a 20-year-old SUNY Orange student, SUNY New York.
01:08:24
Speaker
um Or I guess SUNY in New York is, so SUNY Orange. um Megan McDonald. So they're announcing now officials have made it and arrest in this case.
01:08:35
Speaker
New York State Police announced on Thursday, April the 20th of 2023, that a 42-year-old man named Edward Hawley had been arrested for second-degree murder in connection to Megan's death in March of 2003.
01:08:48
Speaker
Just throwing this out here. That makes him 19. Right?
01:08:53
Speaker
Right. Okay.
01:08:57
Speaker
Megan's body had been found on this narrow dirt path that we just talked about March 15, 2003, and the cause of death was listed as blunt force trauma. Now Dateline ran this. They mentioned it here.
01:09:07
Speaker
There's a lot of different media pushes in 2020, 2021, and 2022 about this case. And they talked to a lieutenant here from the New York State Police who says, not one day has gone by where we have not worked on this case.
01:09:24
Speaker
And at that time, the lieutenant promised to see the case through. He says, I have a job to do, and we're not going to stop until that job is done. Now, according to the 17-page document, you would think, okay.
01:09:37
Speaker
They had now delivered on that to some degree. An investigator by Michael Corletta, also of the state New York State Police, followed a felony complaint. who had done ah He had done a thorough review of the evidence of the case.
01:09:50
Speaker
And the result was that Edward Hawley was identified as a suspect in the murder of Megan McDonald. He states that there was a clear motive. He noted there was hostility between Edward and Meghan, and it was alleged that Holly had told people that Meghan owed him a substantial amount of money.
01:10:10
Speaker
The complaint states that in May of 2002, months before her murder, Meghan began receiving money from her deceased father's New York Police Department pension, and that she was known to be fiscally responsible.
01:10:26
Speaker
However, on March 10, 2003, her bank account was overdrawn by nearly $1,000, and this had never happened before. So that's within five days of her death.
01:10:37
Speaker
So just getting to this point here, this case spans a lot of years. It does, yeah, absolutely. um i ah I get the impression that this is kind of a little more than a domestic case based on what we're hearing.
01:10:55
Speaker
um But weird, like, drug deals always give me pause. Like, do you have a number in your head that, like, that's enough money, like, to kill somebody over?
01:11:08
Speaker
ah They weren't killing her over that. i i I see these 2023 documents now, and i kind of wonder, like, what are we – what are we dealing with?
01:11:21
Speaker
um But it's certainly not these small amounts that they're mentioning here. And that's what the the next paragraph kind of runs with. It's almost like a red herring. Right. Well, Holly talks to the police.
01:11:32
Speaker
So it it could be a red herring that the money comes into play. And according to his police interviews, he admits Megan owed him money. According to these interviews, it's only about 300 bucks.
01:11:45
Speaker
That's what he says. He stated that this was to pay her back for a a car that Meghan helped him purchase. just want to throw this out here for a second.
01:11:58
Speaker
This is in the articles, and it took me a minute to get this straight. I was under the impression she owed money that she owed money to Edward Hawley, but they changed it in this article.
01:12:11
Speaker
It's he owed her money.
01:12:18
Speaker
Right? It's weird. Well, you're deaf. Let's see. I'm going to about that for a second. You're going to kill somebody because you owe them money? okay that Okay. So, because they bring up this overdrawn bank account, right? Right.
01:12:34
Speaker
Which makes it seem like she owes somebody and somebody was taking it back from her. But then they bring up that he apparently had helped her. He had help from her purchasing a car and owed her at least $300. Right.
01:12:47
Speaker
and And in 2022, New York state police detectives tell Dateline that they wanted anyone who had information about the cars that night to come forward. And this is where we get the description of the dark colored hatchback style vehicle or the Honda Civic from the witness. They did that in 2022. Yeah. Can you imagine, like, let's think back to 2003. Well,
01:13:11
Speaker
well I don't know how you think back that that far. but i I have a feeling it was a big deal that ah she was found, right? Yeah. And so it might have left an impression.
01:13:24
Speaker
yeah Not to mention, we don't know how many people might have, you know, had an idea of what might have happened but never came forward because they weren't asked, right? Right.
01:13:36
Speaker
And we also have a suspect who's talking to the cops. which is more Exactly. and they need a But they're only talking to a certain extent, which when that happens, it's the investigator's job to corroborate any sort of facts that they can sort of glean out of what they're being given.
01:13:54
Speaker
yeah I've come to the conclusion that after a certain period of time, a lot of the reasons they are asking the public's assistance is to rule out something that a suspect or affiliated person has told them.
01:14:08
Speaker
That they don't believe. Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's possible. um i I've always, I believe that that's possible. i also feel like and they get to a point, especially all this time that's passed, they get to a point where if somebody else doesn't give them something, my they literally will never be able to keep going here.
01:14:31
Speaker
Right. And so in this complaint that they file, the investigator Corletta, he explains that during the time frame of the murder, Edward Hawley had been operating a 1990 Honda Civic hatchback, a purple one, but it was registered to his mom at the time.
Investigation into Edward Hawley
01:14:52
Speaker
And I am racked my brain before I Googled what a purple honda civich hatchback in 1990 looked about like but there's no way somebody forgot that car do you remember those cars i i knew i didn't even have to look it up i knew exactly what it looked like yeah like i could see the ones with the spoilers on them like like automatically they were actually so what year was it 1990 car 2003.
01:15:22
Speaker
And so that, like Hondas are good vehicles, right? all they last forever. And so it was actually not weird. Now I wasn't in high school in 2003, but during the nineties, it was not weird to see older, um Hondas, like mostly Accords, but some of the like kids that wanted to drive a more memorable vehicle,
01:15:48
Speaker
you know, they would buy the sporty looking civics, right? Yeah. And yes, I remember those very well. And I remember how they used to soup them up.
01:15:59
Speaker
Oh yeah. That's what I was thinking of. Souping them up. And the other thing was replacing the entire back area. That would be like the trunk of the hatchback with speakers.
01:16:10
Speaker
And that's all they had it back there. You could literally could not transport anything because of uh, Size of the speakers. Subwoofer, is that what they're called? I think it would have, yeah, subwoofers and an amp, maybe.
01:16:24
Speaker
No, but so that was a whole thing back then, and I knew exactly what they were talking about. Yep. So according to another witness in May of 2022, they knew that Megan had told them.
01:16:40
Speaker
before she was killed, that what Holly actually owed her was more like $3,000. And she had made the complaint that he was not paying her back. So this becomes one part of what the investigators think is the motive here.
01:16:58
Speaker
Now, according to the complaint, there's another piece of the motive, and that is that Megan and Edward Holly had been linked romantically But before, like early March before the murder, she had attempted to end their relationship.
01:17:14
Speaker
She also began seeing a man. But for some strange reason in the complaint, they identify the man that she's seeing as suspect number two.
01:17:27
Speaker
um he's na We're going to talk about him later. But in the complaint itself, suspect number two is not named publicly at this time back in 2023. But the complaint does state that he died in 2010.
01:17:40
Speaker
Over the years, Edward Hawley has done multiple police interviews, and he's stated in these police interviews that he had had an argument with Meghan several days before she's killed.
01:17:53
Speaker
But depending on which part of which interview you're listening to, you'll get several different answers as to what the argument was about. He also c claimed to both police and a separate witness that the day they had this argument was allegedly the last time he saw Megan.
01:18:14
Speaker
Authorities were able to use witness statements and cell phone tower records. So we're back in like, we're almost in like the podcast serial land in terms of timing and cell tower records.
01:18:28
Speaker
um That was a big bone of contention there. It comes up here, but they were able to establish that Edward Hawley and Megan McDonald were in the same general area the night of her murder.
01:18:40
Speaker
It also states that the New York state police were all the way in January 2023, were able to get some assistance from a private company called Cybercheck. Cybercheck was able to use cell tower and device data from way back when to establish that Megan McDonald, Edward Hawley, and suspect number two were all together at key locations on the night of the homicide.
01:19:07
Speaker
So this is something you talk about from time to time. The cause of death here and manner of death, according to this investigator, blunt force trauma homicide, he felt like it was the result of, and this is his phrase, an expressive homicide.
01:19:29
Speaker
That is what I consider rage. Well, any i would say that any murder that involves the murder weapon being a ball-peen hammer. Right.
01:19:41
Speaker
right is I mean, so i I have a ball peen hammer that's tiny, right? Right. And so I realize that skews my perspective on how much work it would take to kill someone with it, right?
01:19:57
Speaker
Because I'm sure they come in bigger sizes, right? They do. They come in all sorts of sizes. I have 16-ounce sixteen oun one I don't know how much mine weighs, but it's it's literally like a mini hand. like It's very small. I don't even know why I have it.
01:20:13
Speaker
But I got it for like a very specific purpose, and it's ah it's the smallest one I could get. And so that skews it. But I believe even the biggest one I could you know come across, you would have to really be enraged.
01:20:31
Speaker
Because it's not even... The ball peen, you know, it has a round end and then it has like a blunt end. Right. As opposed to like a normal hammer that are like what I consider a normal hammer, which would just have the hammer end and then it has the nail remover end.
01:20:48
Speaker
Or the claw. The claw, that's what it's called, yeah. But so the ball peen hammer, I mean, you really have to... It would just be a lot of work and the normal human reaction, even to and in a situation that would enrage you, you would stop long before you beat someone to death with it.
01:21:12
Speaker
I think so too. Yeah, I think so too. According Corletto here, his opinion is that Corletto says but his opinion is that an expressive homicide to him indicates an intimate personal relationship between a victim and offender.
01:21:30
Speaker
That can be the case. I'm not going I think some raised killings don't necessarily tie into that exactly, but and given what they have here, i totally accept that explanation.
01:21:43
Speaker
Well, was going to say, like, rage can be transferred, but from all accounts... it's not like you've got a lot of enraged people hanging out with Megan or a lot of people that even had a reason, right? Right. To be enraged. And in a vacuum, i mean, there's only so many people who could have done this, right? ah at Megan was 20, I believe.
01:22:11
Speaker
is that correct? I think that's correct. Yeah. Okay. So she's a 20 year old college student. Um, And she's a a very pretty, she looks like she would have been very pleasant.
01:22:24
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I don't know, but she's she's a young, innocent girl, right? Right. And the, even... it It just, it's going to take a very special set of circumstances that are only going line up with so many people, unless it is one of those transfer rage type situations. But still, you're going to find she's got to be in a position where that can occur, right? Yes.
01:22:49
Speaker
Okay. And so you've got to find the person that could have, it's almost like they would have had to have loved her enough to hated her enough to do this.
01:23:03
Speaker
Yes, that's that is a strange way to put it, but ah it's very accurate. So according to the complaint, now I'm kind of going, like I said, backwards in time. 2021, the New York State Police, they do a computer analysis of DNA as ah evidence, which revealed that both Megan and Edward Hawley had DNA associated in an inclusionary manner.
01:23:33
Speaker
on swabs for Meghan's cell phone. So this gave them the idea that potentially Edward Hawley had gone through Meghan's cell phone and he had seen in her call log, which would have looked way different back then, that she had called her ex-boyfriend.
01:23:50
Speaker
They believed this is where Edward Hawley went into a rage. Now, Back forward a little bit, there's these Dateline episodes that start popping up, and there's a significant 2022 media campaign.
01:24:04
Speaker
And investigators point out there are 700 pieces of evidence in this case, and that every item that they could think of has been looked at and then re-examined later.
Ethical Dilemmas in Prosecution
01:24:16
Speaker
So in this complaint from March of 2023, they kind of back up what they were saying previously in the media campaign, that they had revealed additional evidence that DNA obtained from the rear driver's seat of Megan's car, that Mercury Sable we talked about in that very first image of it driving by apartment windows, that in that car, Megan and Edward's DNA are associated in an inclusionary manner. And I wanted to ask you, before we get to the the rest of this, what does inclusionary manner mean?
01:24:46
Speaker
It means that they probably got um one mixed sample that, while not definitively profiled as Megan and Holly, that the DNA was close enough that they couldn't be excluded. Right.
01:25:04
Speaker
And obviously in a vehicle, when you're looking at an exclusion versus an inclusory match— I mean, there's only going to be so many people's DNA that can be in someone's personal vehicle, right? Right.
01:25:19
Speaker
And so, to me, it's as good as a match. Well, so I was curious about that because I thought it was going to be a mixed sample of some kind, but I've never heard it used in that group. It may not have been a mixed sample, but what I can tell, like they might have been ah not able to get like a complete profile from what they were looking at. Oh, so they're included in the statistical probability. Yeah.
01:25:43
Speaker
Well, the alleles that match, they would have been present in Megan and Holly's complete profile. It's just, it wasn't, I don't know, well, I don't know what the standard was, like, at the time of the incident. I don't know what the standard was when they did the testing. I don't even really know what the standard is now, but...
01:26:05
Speaker
I think it's something like 18 alleles maybe. Right. So they got enough that they matched enough to say like they can't exclude them. And because, you know, the evidence profile is what it is, it's not like they're going to come upon more of it, right? Yeah.
01:26:22
Speaker
They can't, like it would take more, like let's say you match like 15 out of 18. It's not enough to say that it's them, but it is enough to say that they're not excluded from that. Because any sort of random statistical analysis of someone else's DNA, you would probably get an exclusion.
01:26:41
Speaker
Okay, that's very helpful. So they're using inclusionary to it probably has something to do, like you said, with the amount of profile they can develop.
01:26:53
Speaker
where they can't rule them out, or but they're ruling them out Right. And like I said, like um i I don't keep up with it, but there are like, i I think they're like accreditation standard metrics that they set up and they change, right? Right. And I know that like they've gone from, it and it has to do with what the tax the lab techs are able to sort of do ah qua like to quantitate on paper like from the samples. Right.
01:27:25
Speaker
And so I know that It can be kind of confusing when you're trying to show your analysis. And I think that there it's basically, it's sort of CYA type of expression where they're like, well, I know it matches, but the accreditation standard says it's got to have a little more to actually match. So all we can say is that either they can't be excluded or they are inclusive, right? Yeah.
01:27:51
Speaker
And see, all that jargon to me just makes it more confusing. But I do understand, like, let's say that this sample was from the back of a bus seat, right? Right. Which would be exposed to, like, way more people as opposed to someone's personal car, right? right That would be sort of a...
01:28:13
Speaker
To only be inclusory and not a like complete match, that could be more relevant if you're talking about a mode of transportation where you you know thousands of people might have touched the back of the seat.
01:28:27
Speaker
That could be relevant. But the standard is there, and everybody has to follow it. So even though like other circumstances make it very unlikely, that it's not their DNA, they can't really say it matches. They can just say that it is inclusory. Got it. Just like they could say it was it the excluded them if the opposite were true, which then would point outside of you know it being their DNA and they'd be needing to look for a reason that it's somebody else's, right? Yeah. I think i think the reason that word threw me off is because the jurisdiction that I practice in what I see is...
01:29:06
Speaker
I typically see probabilities by investigators and experts in terms of they could not be excluded as opposed to them saying associated in an inclusionary manner. I don't think I see that word a lot.
01:29:22
Speaker
Well, and I do think there's a reason for the distinction. Yeah. Um, And it, again, is just jargon. To me, it was their DNA. Got it.
01:29:34
Speaker
So he ends this complaint, and he says, Edward Hawley provided numerous conditions contradictory stories, alibis, and each of those has been disproved over time by several witnesses.
01:29:46
Speaker
Based on my review of the records associated with this case, numerous interviews, and my expertise as a law enforcement professional, there is probable cause that on March 14, 2003, Edward did intend to cause the death of another person, Megan McDonald, and he did in fact cause the death of such person.
01:30:04
Speaker
um So he's arrested, he's remanded to the Orange County Jail up there without bail, taken to the city of Middleton Court. And the first part of this, as far as like the NBC sources and the stuff we're pulling from, kind of ends.
01:30:20
Speaker
um They do state that a week later, ah week after being arrested, that 42-year-old Edward Hawley had been released from custody in an unrelated case after Orange County District Attorneys said that protocol wasn't followed.
01:30:37
Speaker
The Orange County DA added that the office will prioritize the investigation and the prosecution, which a special prosecutor will oversee. Edward Hawley has denied the allegations of his involvement in Megan's homicide, saying, I'm definitely not guilty.
01:30:52
Speaker
Throwing that out there, that is a lot in just a couple sentences. Guess who the Orange County District Attorney at the time is?
01:31:04
Speaker
It's one of the investigators. Was it one of the investigators? No. Or the attorney? It's the attorney that called up Albanese, who has since retired.
01:31:14
Speaker
It's that guy. It's David Hoovler.
01:31:19
Speaker
Yeah. And see, that gets confusing to me because, and so I think to myself, well, these people all have professional roles that they ethically are bound to play, right? Correct.
01:31:31
Speaker
But then I like look at them and I'm not saying anything negative about them, and but I look at them and I'm like, it raises flags, not because of the way they look, but it's just sort of like, well, wait a minute, right?
01:31:44
Speaker
Can they play their ethical bound role properly given the other information, right? It's very complex. Now he's not, so according to the timeline that is put on the Justice for Meghan website, he's not sworn in, he's elected in November 2013.
01:32:02
Speaker
ah two thousand thirteen So it's years after this has been ongoing. maybe but hes still i don't know i don't know what the conflict—I don't know that it—I realize that it there could be a perception, right? yeah And it could be that there's a conflict, and it could also be that it's nothing.
01:32:21
Speaker
Right. Well, so he takes his oath of office January 1st, 2014, and the New York State police are worried about exactly what you're saying. And he did he declined to ah to step back from the case, right? Right. The state police asked him to to recuse himself. That's the like the word. Recuse, right.
01:32:42
Speaker
But see, to me, once they've asked him to recuse, it's weird that he doesn't. Right. It is weird. Because of this happening, we find out that in March of 2010, so years before now, like 15 years ago now, a man named Andre Thurston died.
01:33:03
Speaker
He died of a drug overdose. This is going to turn out to be the man that David Hoovler represents. And in this felony complaint paperwork that I've been reading from that's at the NBC sources and it's sort of scattered throughout the story, he's the suspect number two.
01:33:21
Speaker
Which then makes it a little bit more obvious there is a conflict. right So an article pops up in 2024. This is the Tim Stella article.
01:33:33
Speaker
It states at the top, family of brutally slain New York student feels betrayed by prosecutor alleging a secret plea deal was suspect. um Here's how that runs.
01:33:45
Speaker
the family has accused Orange County District Attorney David Hoover of trying to stymie the investigation, failing to disclose that he once represented a suspect in McDonald's killing and offering a quote, secret plea deal with a man charged with second-degree murder in her death in 2003.
01:34:02
Speaker
So this is going to be 10 years after he becomes the DA. The allegations are detailed in disciplinary complaints that McDonald's sister and mother have filed against Hoover in 2003.
01:34:13
Speaker
what would be like early 2024. This is with the judicial oversight body that would investigate any type of New York allegations of prosecutorial misconduct.
01:34:25
Speaker
In February 2024, Karen Whelan, who is Megan McDonald's sister, and her husband, they start to appear at press conferences related to this.
01:34:36
Speaker
And they talk to multiple groups. They call for state and federal authorities to investigate David Heuveler over what they are calling untruthful and evasive actions. Now, this is particularly interesting to me because one of those groups that comes to be is is sort of the the union for the detectives in New York.
01:34:57
Speaker
And so Karen, her dad, and Megan's dad, he died in 2002, but he was a detective with the New York Police Department. Days before this news conference, a local reporter reveals a series of explosive allegations after having obtained what was described as an internal New York State Police memo detailing the agency's troubled relationship with Hoover.
01:35:22
Speaker
The state police believe that Hoover had deliberately tampered with the investigation. Now, this was published by the USA Today paper up in New York. The full report is in there.
01:35:34
Speaker
And Megan McDonald's brother-in-law, James Whalen, says it's time for the truth to come out. We're confident that the truth coming out means there will be consequences. So in response to a list of detailed questions, David Huvler, for this article, said an email statement that the suggestion that he or anyone in his office sought to tamper with or compromise the investigation was inaccurate, unfair, and offensive.
01:35:58
Speaker
Heuveler said that he and his staff have always adhered to the highest ethical standards. He declined to comment further on the complaints, noting they were viewed competentially, but he added, "...I am cognizant that in investigations such as this one, it is not uncommon for family members of the deceased, as well as the generations of investigated personnel who devoted untold hours of effort to express profound frustration resulting in perspectives that may fail to appreciate significant details and important legal realities." A state police official declined to comment, but said he was grateful for the team that we built ah fighting for Megan. That's going to be the lieutenant from one of the earlier sources I mentioned.
01:36:36
Speaker
ah Pretty much everybody related to all of the attorney generals in New York and the United States and the New York governor. They declined to talk about this. So does the FBI's New York field office.
01:36:48
Speaker
Now, what's interesting interesting in all of this is that even though he's let go, from custody, Edward Hawley is indicted. So that's important.
01:36:59
Speaker
It pops up in here that January 29th of 2024, a grand jury has indicted Edward Hawley for second degree murder in Megan's death. And he's set to be arraigned February 2nd, 2024.
01:37:12
Speaker
All of this is to say that, um, like we're headed towards an update here. What do you think of all this where Hoover is talking about the realities of being in his position as prosecutor and having been ah part of this?
01:37:28
Speaker
He's wrong. I agree with the words he's wrong, but I do want to throw out there for anybody listening at home.
01:37:38
Speaker
This happens all the time. It's just usually not. This type of morass where you've got the state police trying to solve the murder of a former NYPD detective's daughter.
01:37:53
Speaker
And you said he died before she did. Is that right? Yeah, the year before. She had just begun to receive his pension from 2000. He died 2002. And she was the one who was receiving money from his pension. She was.
01:38:06
Speaker
Right. And so essentially you've got the district attorney who was a defense attorney who was feeding information from. ah the and to the investigators of Megan's death some years afterwards, right? Correct. of suspect number two. Correct.
01:38:23
Speaker
Okay. and it's my opinion that when you get to this point, why on earth would any prosecutor think that it would be okay for them to take that case forward given the position that they had previously been in?
01:38:44
Speaker
I don't know the answer that. And the fact that he says that it's insulting that you've questioned my ethics on this It just tells me that, like, they're so blinded by the situation. Because he's not wrong. Like, somebody that had integrity could possibly switch gears from one position to the other.
01:39:05
Speaker
However, somebody that also, the same person with integrity would absolutely call in a special prosecutor that was not involved.
01:39:17
Speaker
Right. or the attorney general, or whatever, right? They would do something because no matter how much integrity he has, there's no question that there appears to be evidence that he was linked to being legal counsel for suspect number two.
01:39:39
Speaker
And so all the information he has is conflicted. Yeah, yeah, he's definitely conflicted. So
Mistrials and Conflict of Interest Issues
01:39:48
Speaker
the reason I say that this type of stuff happens all the time is because there are ways around conflicts. Typically, he would be recusing himself, a special prosecutor would be brought in. i think the I think what they ultimately do here is they sort of have his chief deputy handle part of this.
01:40:05
Speaker
But couple of interesting things about this. I know like im I'm getting long in the tooth about this. I'm talking a lot about this case. um There's an update in April 2025. Edward Hawley has gone on trial, which is its own special you know piece of excitement.
01:40:24
Speaker
um This is, ah it's well, sometimes like plea deals happen, and particularly in in cases like this. ah But the article that I have from LowHud is from the staff reports, April 17th afternoon. It says an Orange County judge has declared a mistrial after the jury in Edward Holly's murder trial was unable to reach a unanimous verdict.
01:40:52
Speaker
Polly was accused of the 2003 murder of Megan McDonald. um Judge Yun Chin Kim reportedly declared declared the mistrial over the objections of the defense, who asked that the jury have more time to deliberate the verdict.
01:41:07
Speaker
The jury had been in deliberation since April the 8th and had indicated that they were having issues reaching a unanimous verdict. um How long was that, do you know?
01:41:18
Speaker
It would have been from April 8th. It would be from April the 8th till April the 16th, probably, with a weekend in there. So it's multiple days. That's a long that's a long deliberation. if they If it was consistently during, like, court hours or whatever.
01:41:38
Speaker
Right. If it's, like, the standard 8 to 5 court or something close to that, um then... the the jury has been in there going at it for quite a while.
01:41:51
Speaker
And they've they' clearly indicated multiple times they have issues if the judge is declaring a mistrial. um We do get a few new tidbits out of this. um That is that Megan's body is found ah by a dumpster in the area where she was.
01:42:11
Speaker
ah There's specifically a dumpster nearby. There is blood in her car from that night. That's a big deal. um There's a lot of arguments and opinion articles that you can get into here on this case where people are talking about should a judge have stepped aside in addition to Hoover.
01:42:33
Speaker
And I guess the the gist of that is um back in, February 2024, there's a series of articles that pop up in Low HUD where it says Jason Rivera needed legal advice sometime after 2008, and state police wanted to question him in connection with the 2003 Meghan McDonald homicide.
01:42:55
Speaker
um So he calls his brother-in-law, attorney Craig Stephen Brown. He represents Rivera. Rivera's question, police records don't show Rivera being interviewed in the McDonald case until after another phone call, which is one that Craig Stephen Brown is going to make years later when he becomes the Orange County Circuit Court judge.
01:43:17
Speaker
And that call made in early March 2019 catches the attention of state police investigators. And it changes the way Brown was perceived by some of the people at the at the state group.
01:43:30
Speaker
And this call and the mistrust that came from it ah came to light where this memo about District Attorney David Hoovler, it's mentioned in there. And they also talk about a plea deal from Hoovler being sought for Andre Thurston.
01:43:46
Speaker
And all of these people are saying they're not hindering anything here. And ultimately, Judge Brown, um
01:43:55
Speaker
he's put on the spot about a warrant that And that comes from mid-2018. The New York State Police had sought an eavesdropping warrant and a pen register warrant, I believe, to monitor Edward Hawley's phone.
01:44:11
Speaker
So this became weird because the police have to go to Hoover, who has to go to Judge Brown, so they all have to approve it at each step.
01:44:24
Speaker
So it took police almost nine months to get the warrant ready. And when they did, it went from police over to executive ADA Chris Borick to the judge's clerk and then to Brown. So Hoovler explains how his office handles warrant requests in a phone interview with Lowood.
01:44:42
Speaker
He says, generally a judge's law clerk asks in advance for a copy of what you're going to bring because the judge and the law clerk generally will read it for a couple of days. They will stew on it before they decide what they want to do. He said that the wiretap application was specifically constructed to do what the state police wanted.
01:44:58
Speaker
its timing was done based on what they wanted. They wanted it done at a particular time, and it was presented to us. It was put together and taken to the judge. And he says, I did not take this to the judge. For the wiretap warrant, um he said he would have one of his executive ADAs review the application, noting any changes, alterations, or deletions.
01:45:17
Speaker
And after they do that, they give it to the judge, and the judge either indicates, sends somebody up to clarify, ah like what's going to happen. um But he says that Chris Borick handled that, went up and handled it with Judge Brown.
01:45:28
Speaker
And in the days before Judge Brown was asked to handle the warrant application, he'd advise his brother-in-law, like picking up the phone, um calling a senior investigator named Kevin Trezimpa, and he asked a question off the record.
01:45:43
Speaker
Now, they were friends on Facebook. um Their kids played sports together. Now, he talks to USA Today, and he says that he called to Zimpa because he was one of the people that reached out and interviewed my brother-in-law for background information.
01:45:56
Speaker
So I thought he might be the best to tell me from a position of being inside the investigation. But Brown simply says he asked if Rivera was being sought as a background witness or a material witness when he talks to him originally.
01:46:10
Speaker
so they're talking about this like being a ah problem. And this shows up in the report. um One of the things I noticed, though, is he denies a couple of search warrants along the way.
01:46:22
Speaker
And that's Judge Brown. One of those is for Edward Hawley's Google accounts. So this is within days of the phone call, six days after Judge Brown denies this eavesdropping warrant, Jason Rivera makes a first appearance in the McDonald case interview list, March 18th, 2019.
01:46:46
Speaker
He's questioned by police multiple times, um and he invokes his relationship with the judge in both of those interviews. so Which is not a thing, by the way. No, but ultimately what the judge says is happening there, which I kind of believe him.
01:47:01
Speaker
He says he was uncomfortable with how things were going. And he thought it was time for him to, like when he's realizing they don't have enough on this and don't have enough on that, he needed to figure out if he needed to recuse himself altogether.
01:47:17
Speaker
Right. but He ultimately does. Right. Correct. and And that was the right call. But here's the thing. So when you've got these officials that are like, oh, let me just make this quick phone call off the record, right? That's wrong.
01:47:30
Speaker
They shouldn't do that. What they should do in cases that are happening, active cases, right? Right. And and it was irrelevant anyway until he was actually put on the list, right? Right. Right.
01:47:41
Speaker
ah his brother-in-law was put on the list and it became relevant. What they should do is they should have everybody like in chambers and have a discussion about it. It shouldn't be ex parte.
01:47:53
Speaker
And, you know, the troopers, I think that's who the investigators that he contacted, like in theory, as the case moves on, that is an ex parte off the record conversation.
01:48:05
Speaker
and it leads to, you the appearance of problems. Correct. And so if you don't do it to begin with, or you do it in a even playing field manner, like where you bring in the other side, whoever it is, right? ah The defense attorney or whatever, and and you all talk about it, then it doesn't come up later as being an an issue, right? Or it's decided right there amongst everybody that this is an issue.
01:48:37
Speaker
right And so I feel like a lot of these um officials, I don't think, I think it's possible that they're not being nefarious. They just don't understand that, like, all the rules apply to them regardless.
01:48:52
Speaker
Right. And so as long as you follow the rules, it's not going to be a problem. Right. I do get, and and you know, things happen all the time like this. People call up people and they say, hey, you know, they get information off the record. And as long as it doesn't come to light, it doesn't really matter.
01:49:10
Speaker
But they really shouldn't do it because as soon as it's exposed. it You know, everybody's screaming corruption. Everybody's screaming cover-up. in a case like this that has had so much time passed and so many, like, crazy things happening, yeah it just, it would be so much better if they just did if they just avoided even the appearance appearance of any impropriety, right?
01:49:35
Speaker
Yeah. Well, they do end up with Giulia Corbachio as a special prosecutor at the actual trial. Right. And so this mistrial is declared.
01:49:46
Speaker
They have already set a second trial. It will be moving forward in October. um They have a bunch of conferences this summer. um None of those people are really involved at this point. I will say that Edward Hawley's attorney iss a guy named Paul Weber up there. And he comes out and says,
01:50:06
Speaker
He flat out says, as he's writing these bail adjustments, like basically wanting to move Holly, who's in a wheelchair, keep in mind, to his home, he flat out says that the cops are lying. He says they're getting on the stand and they're lying. And he thinks that they were using some true things mixed with some very false things indicating that they were lying on the stand to make a name for themselves, to become like one of those super cops.
01:50:33
Speaker
He flat out says that there were two state police detectives who lied on the stand. He said it made him pissed off. um i didn't I didn't follow this trial. um I don't even know if it was followable.
01:50:45
Speaker
But I didn't follow it. However, i will say that um just now this is not reality. This is in the legal realm, like just in court.
01:50:59
Speaker
Right. It is a it is a... beneficial situation when you've got a team of suspects and one of them has passed away.
01:51:15
Speaker
it is. You can dump it on him. But I will i will say that, like, whoever goes a step further with all of this, he states repeatedly how much faith that the prosecutors are putting in the value of these DNA samples.
01:51:27
Speaker
But he points out that, like, there were multiple people's DNA found in this car. like a lot of them turned out to be friends of McDonald and Holly.
01:51:38
Speaker
So his point was more like they haven't proven this conclusively. And obviously the jury is having a problem with this because they're hung. There's a mistrial, right? So we end up with this mistrial. The family is very angry about it all. The defense was actually angry about the mistrial.
01:51:54
Speaker
I think they wanted to you know lean it towards um an acquittal so that this would be over for Edward Holly. Um, ultimately I don't have a great sense of this. I will be following the mistrial.
01:52:08
Speaker
He's accused of secondary murder. He is still facing 15 years to life in prison. Um, and there appears to be quite a bit of evidence. He is remaining in jail for now. Uh, the, uh, the application for a bail, uh, while he awaits the second trial, uh, that ended up being denied by judge Hyun Chin Kim. So like,
01:52:29
Speaker
They were trying to get him out and get him home while he waits for it. But instead, I think what they're going to do is try and push for the trial to happen quickly, um which will be interesting to me. Well, they must have a lot of confidence that there's not enough there.
01:52:44
Speaker
i guess that's what they're going for. Or I think they may just have a lot of confidence that this is the type case that's had enough dirt around it that they can throw that in there and it'll confuse the jury. I'm very leery, um you know, talking about lying investigators and all.
01:53:01
Speaker
know. It's just really strange, like, and with that much time passing. i know. And while I don't believe that, like, the the whole financial motivation was, like, really weird, but there was a different motivation that i totally could buy it were true. I don't know if it were true. It seems like it would have been confirmed.
01:53:23
Speaker
But I could have bought that. And then it's a weird situation when you've got two of them. Suspects, right? Yeah. And...
01:53:36
Speaker
it is part i So my thought on it was that if suspect number two was responsible for it, I still think Holly saw what was going on. Well, ultimately, she it it is kind of, for me, leaning towards her having some kind of relationship with...
01:54:01
Speaker
Andre Thurston and the potential for some kind of jealousy to be playing. He comes out and does this weird thing later on, which I think is ultimately why he's not the prosecutor here.
01:54:13
Speaker
He says that the Albanese notes are incorrect and that he never specified which homicide Andre Thurston had information about. but He didn't specify Meghan McDonald.
01:54:29
Speaker
And he said that as the district attorney. He says this as the district attorney. Yeah. So in that case, um that's weird.
01:54:40
Speaker
But I think you have this problem with Jason Rivera being brought into this. And and like you have the ability as a defense team to look at it and say, no, it's actually Jason Rivera, but they're ignoring him.
01:54:52
Speaker
And Andre Thurston. Especially with all that garbage. Well, but you know what else, though?
01:55:01
Speaker
I could see where, like, when you're, okay, so when you're a defense attorney and you're talking to investigators on behalf of somebody you're representing, the only person you're interested in basically saving is your own client.
01:55:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, yes, yes, I agree with that statement. Okay, yeah and so what's up? Like, what's happening there? Well, I, okay, I will say, He's trying to save the living defendant's ass, but he does have this other guy, Jason Rivera, who's tied to the judge who might've gotten, you know, it's like the ultimate kind of catch 22 for reasonable doubt.
01:55:43
Speaker
If there's this other guy that you can point to and say, he got favors from someone who then had to recuse himself from this case. I'm not saying that's even a part of the reality of this case.
01:55:54
Speaker
Exactly. But you can speculate on it, which is The problem, right? All of a sudden, saying, and to me, the fact that he was like, I never said that it was that murder, right?
01:56:09
Speaker
Like, wait a minute, what? Like, they didn't just come to the conclusion on their own that that's what he was talking about. And it just, seemed you know, as a DA, he wouldn't have any representative capacity over Hawley, right?
01:56:22
Speaker
Correct. Because supposedly he was ah suspect number two's defense ah representative. I don't know. They weren't charged, so it wasn't really like he was his defense attorney, but I guess...
01:56:34
Speaker
whatever circumstances. was counsel. Yeah. And so, so he was representing him. And so you don't typically aim to keep the co-persons of interest out of trouble when you're representing your defendant, right? Correct.
01:56:54
Speaker
In fact, you typically would point at them. I did find it interesting though, that there was this, like an, you know, incognito plea deal being offered. That was
Media Distraction and Delayed Justice
01:57:04
Speaker
weird. And ah then also, you know, it doesn't really matter, i guess, because if he had conversations with suspect number two, he would obviously know who the other person was. I don't know if he ever told police that.
01:57:20
Speaker
um I'd have to look through more carefully than I have. But I do, and I also don't know, like, what was the situation between Holly and suspect number two? Were they friends?
01:57:32
Speaker
i think I think she had left Holly and Megan was dating Andre Thurston, and the only connection Andre Thurston necessarily had to Holly was, I think it's potentially drug-related, like an acquaintanceship.
01:57:50
Speaker
Right, but they had a physical relationship, though. According to what I read. Who? Holly and Megan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Like they were, they were, they were seeing each other for whatever reason and then they weren't.
01:58:05
Speaker
So it's a breakup, whether they were friends with benefits or whatever. They, they no longer have that relationship by the time of her death. She has been having a relationship with Andre Thurston. That's how it's described to us.
01:58:16
Speaker
And see, that's interesting to me because he, and what what if it's somebody completely besides Holly? See, there's a lot of impressions that are left here that maybe it did come out during the trial. Maybe it is that it's equally as possible that suspect number two did this as it is that Holly did it right.
01:58:35
Speaker
And that they weren't acquainted with one another. In fact, they they had the same relationship with Megan at different times and that could have caused animosity. Right. Right.
01:58:46
Speaker
And so you would, could be looking at somebody trying to blame somebody else for what they did. Well, and yeah if he was completely innocent, that would really suck for him at this point. I agree with you I just think, i think, I think it's interesting to look at this case. Right.
01:59:04
Speaker
Right now, because I think the world has been distracted by loie Vallow and Karen Reed while all this is going on. There's been like a lot of focus on the law and crime channels and everything on other things.
01:59:18
Speaker
Right. And, um you know, it was, it's a tragedy that Megan McDonald was beaten to death with a ball peeing hammer 2003. And there still hasn't been any justice brought.
01:59:31
Speaker
And that, It's pretty clear to me, kind of sitting know with a bird's eye view, that there's officials in this situation that are completely clueless about, or they're pretending that they're completely clueless about the actions that they're taking that are are muddying the waters, as you put it.
01:59:53
Speaker
Right. And so... Look, there are places where you only have one judge for a set period of time. You may have a district court judge and a superior court judge. The person signing the warrants for the bulk of the year may be the same guy.
02:00:05
Speaker
So, like, I can see ah situation where Brown should have been sending them elsewhere. Maybe some of these warrants shouldn't be denied. Maybe he denied some access. Well, and, you know, there could be a perfectly plausible reason that he would have a conflict but also completely legally deny the warrant, like, without any sort of skew, right? Yeah.
02:00:26
Speaker
But just from the perspective of like the soap opera style drama that can happen with trials, No, it's better off he didn't do that. Yeah, this case has everything. it has it says It has lying detectives and corrupt officials and the guy in the wheelchair who may or may not have done it and the dead suspect and this other guy who was protected by the judge and the district attorney who represented the other suspect. It's got all the things that like this this retrial should be a huge deal.
02:00:58
Speaker
It really should. And like do people even know this is happening? Right. So if you need a rabbit hole to go down, Meghan McDonald's going to be the next one that I think is going to be one of the more interesting with like all the questions that you could expect out of a trial that you're watching some very serious legal issues be decided kind of on the the back of justice for this young lady.
02:01:21
Speaker
So much like continuing legal education for some of the court officers, or not court officers, but yes ah the attorneys and the judges and such.
02:01:31
Speaker
Because they're all learning important lessons that it seems like they should have already known. Yeah. i This is what I did. I read up on this one instead of going down the Lori Vallow rabbit hole.
02:01:43
Speaker
Because that was the other place I was going to go. It's like, I can do this, or I can go down there. And never looking into her. i Yeah, that's what I decided. But the only reason that was interesting is i i find it baffling when people in the her predicament represent themselves.
02:02:01
Speaker
So I thought about it from that perspective, but it wasn't ultimately interesting enough for me to keep going that direction. So this is, we get Megan McDonald instead. you have any more thoughts on, um on this particular morass that we're uncovering? have so many thoughts, but I'm going to hold them because like you said, you know, there's either going to be a plea deal or a retrial coming up. So yeah, if this is, if this comes back and it's a plea deal, it's going to be a very short piece of true crime news.
02:02:27
Speaker
I will say that of it I have a very special kind of tug at my heart for young girls who were, I mean, they said she was buying marijuana or whatever, but to me, that's not really a big deal.
02:02:43
Speaker
Um, but I guess it is illegal. So whatever to me, for the most part, she appears to be what I would consider and almost innocent victim. hundred percent. I think she is ah an innocent victim.
02:02:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, there could be like, oh, she was buying drugs or whatever, and I guess, but to me that's not a big deal, and she's an an innocent victim. And it really tugs on my heart when you see so much potential like snuffed out, like what I see happened in this case, right? Yeah. Because she didn't have a chance, right?
02:03:13
Speaker
Right. A guy that was bigger than her with a ball-peen hammer, and I say guy because, let's face it, it was a guy, right? Right. We know it was a guy. And they beat her to death.
02:03:25
Speaker
And it's so tragic. And it's, in a lot of ways, you know, justice delayed is justice denied. And for whatever reason, I don't know why she fell through the cracks, but I hope this gets resolved in a way that actually brings her death justice, right? Yeah.
02:03:43
Speaker
I do too. I hope that it's resolved in a way that, like, is is, like, reflective of the truth, which is so difficult to do in a case that has this much drama around it. And we'll never know, right? Too much time has passed. And just the, when you look at people who are telling you what the truth is, and you know that they may not actually have the same view of the truth as you, yeah right? yeah It makes it really hard to decipher it, but hopefully it will be resolved.
02:04:13
Speaker
Do you want to mention the one last thing that like I said, hold off on that earlier? um Well, I read, and like I said, I didn't watch the trial. I don't know if this has been confirmed, but the what I read was that Megan had told Holly that she was pregnant. Right. and to me, you you said he was 19.
02:04:36
Speaker
At the time? Is that right? He would have been 19. I think if they were friends with benefits or for whatever reason they were hooking up, they it didn't seem like they were like in a relationship. Right. Beyond just apparently he sold her marijuana and then they were hooking up.
02:04:52
Speaker
Right. In a physical relationship. And I do think if she was like... I'm pregnant. The baby's yours. You know you already owe me $3,000. You're going to owe me so much more money like for child support. I'm not saying she did that. okay I'm just saying that type of avenue, I can see rage building.
02:05:14
Speaker
Right. so Ultimately, The way this goes down is it comes up at trial. You're right. You're 100% right. um It's from an interview with the state police that Edward Hawley did back in 2019. It's one of the different series of interviews they have with him.
02:05:32
Speaker
This video comes up at trial, and in it he's telling the state police police investigators that Meghan McDonald... and And told him days before she was murdered that she was pregnant, that's what they argued over. They ask Holly questions, and he says he never considered the possibility that the baby wasn't his.
02:05:48
Speaker
um they point And doesn't that lead more to a motive? I think it would. But is he saying it because he thinks it leads away from a motive?
02:05:59
Speaker
Because you've got two situations. You've got a situation where you've got a guy who would never kill the the female that was carrying his child. Right. And then you've got a guy who would absolutely kill her because that's just one more pain in the butt that's going to be added to your already long list of pains in your butts.
02:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, they bring up a guy in that same video named Paul Simpson, who if we swing back around to this, we'll talk about him. And they bring up the fact that I think they ah i think they confirm, i don't know if it's a ruse investigators are using...
02:06:32
Speaker
or if they're confirming that toxicology said she had cocaine in her system, which you know could lead to like a different kind of crowd. um That comes up in the interview from 2019 between... Do we have any the idea if she was actually pregnant?
02:06:48
Speaker
um i haven't I haven't seen that information anywhere um to confirm. I've only seen that he said it, right. That he was the one saying that was the conversation they had, but he's been kind of declared unreliable, so to speak. Sure. And I don't like bringing stuff like that. You know, I, I don't like to speculate. It was brought up there, not by me. Somebody else brought it up. And I do see that as much more of a motive ah for anybody that it were to
02:07:21
Speaker
come up, right? I do. I feel like I, in fact, I think in a lot of young women's cases that when they're killed by when they're pregnant and they're killed, which we don't know, I don't know that Meghan McDonald was pregnant, but we can at least assume that she thought she was, or she was trying to portray to Holly that she was, or that he's lying now, right? Yeah.
02:07:44
Speaker
One of those things happened. However, To me, hearing that, it sounds almost like he's trying to get away with that third-degree murder situation where he reacted and he's looking for lenience, right?
02:08:00
Speaker
Yeah. A ball-peen hammer, though, again, just thinking of my little ball-peen hammer, i think to myself how— how much earlier than death, you would stop hitting somebody with it.
02:08:17
Speaker
Yeah. Right? Like, it would only take a swing or two until you're, like, going, what am I doing? Right? Yeah. If it was a passion, a crime of and whatever it's called, like, where you react to something.
02:08:29
Speaker
And i just, I don't see a ball, peen, hammer situation. I think it was full-on rage. Yeah. and there's And I can also imagine a lot of things that could have come up that had nothing to I don't think it was financial motivation unless he was calculating child support in the future.
02:08:49
Speaker
Yeah, I could see that being some some level of motive. i well and she had given him well you know According to what they said, she was giving him money per car. right and not just It gives you and ah sort of a bird's eye view of what is going on as far as he is not yet supporting himself, right? yeah And so if, you know, as she was pregnant and it's his baby, he could be super happy about that. You know, people don't have to always have relationships, like romantic relationships to co-parent a child. Some guys would be really excited about that, I guess. I don't know.
02:09:26
Speaker
It just depends on what your position is. I imagine because he if he truly did owe her $3,000, which is not a lot of money, by the way, but it can be,
02:09:37
Speaker
in in your perception, right? When you've got a kid selling marijuana and you need your, one of your clients to lend you money to get a car, you may not look at that as a real exciting proposition, right? Yeah.
02:09:53
Speaker
And so there's just a lot of things. it It is weird that he would tell investigators that though, because that doesn't, in my opinion, it doesn't make him look less guilty. It doesn't help him.
02:10:04
Speaker
I don't think No, don't doubt at all. But I am interested to see sort of how that, but he did tell them for some reason. Yeah, he did. He definitely did. The thing is, like we know that he's young and dumb enough to be talking to the cops. There's like all sorts of like weirdness to that, let alone the rest of what we've just described in an hour of talking about yeah just the drama around the case.
02:10:28
Speaker
Um, this is a very, very dramatic case. It is. And I'm i'm going to link below, in the show notes, I'm going to throw a link down there to felony complaint. Holly is what it says. It's a couple of years old now, but it's the, it's like the complaint that they swore out in order to get this trial rolling. And it's where like, it has, a I will warn you guys, it's got a good concentration of information. It's only about 17 or 18 pages long, I think.
02:10:55
Speaker
And, um, What's weird about it is like it does go through this thing where it is like ah provides anonymity to a lot of people. it's like At some point, it gets up to like witness number 30 or something. i you know And that can be very confusing. It's confusing, but like it is worth a read if you want to kind of see the glaring overview of this.
02:11:12
Speaker
if you're planning on like following the trial or the updates for the trial in the second trial of Edward Hawley, it'll either happen in October... or shortly thereafter, or it'll be delayed off to next year because of scheduling issues.
02:11:25
Speaker
um I hope they do it quickly, personally. do, too. And justiceformeghan.com is the site. I believe it's put up by her sister and brother-in-law. I'm not entirely sure, but it has a lot of information about the case. It looks like it's it probably at least affiliated with um ah James Whelan and Karen Whelan. That's sister and brother-in-law.
02:11:47
Speaker
Right. And I was going to say, obviously, you know, I feel like a lot of the justice for whoever the victim is websites are very credible. But, you you know, you keep in mind it's skewed to getting, and don't even know if that skewed's the right word, but it's people looking for justice for the victim.
02:12:03
Speaker
And so take it with a grain of salt and verify the sources, right? Yeah. Yeah. yeah There's lots of ways to verify what's happening here. I definitely think this is a trust but verify kind of um case. Right.
02:12:14
Speaker
I haven't come across anything where I was like, that looks really shady on that particular site. It looks completely up and up from, but it is from a perspective, right? Yeah, yeah. it's from the let's get justice for her perspective. There are a couple things on there that are, in my opinion, is slightly misleading. I'm not going to go into that here. Like, they use some, they use some three better things. People can make their own determination.
02:12:34
Speaker
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. You guys can make your own determination and, like, it's ah It's a rabbit hole worth going down, and Justice for Megan is something worth supporting from the perspective of giving them the clicks and the likes Because you're going to give them somewhere. You're going to give clicks and likes somewhere.
02:12:46
Speaker
So, like, why not make it a case like this that has some actual questions in it? Sure. And I feel like that um I'm amazed that some of the stuff that – it's It's an interesting formula, isn't it? What ends up in the headlines versus what just nobody ever knows about.
02:13:05
Speaker
It's an interesting formula that I know that I have not mastered. And this is a case that should have... everybody in the country like asking questions yeah they yeah at odds with the fact that this has not been solved yet this is insane this was a young innocent girl who didn't have a chance to you know have her life can continue 20 how many 22 years ago that right yeah 2003 so this is taking place in the same time frame as like maura murray
02:13:38
Speaker
And um Brianna Maitland. Exactly. Except she's not missing. She was murder beaten to death with ball-peen hammer. And found within 12 hours. And it's not solved, and it should be. this There is no reason why this case should not be solved.
02:13:54
Speaker
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02:15:18
Speaker
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