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Season Six: Free the People
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In today’s episode, we talk about a legal dilemma in New England and a murder case slowly coming to resolution.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
True Crime and Legal News in Massachusetts
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:01:00
Speaker
We've like occasionally we we get into these like periods of time where we're covering like a lot of more legal stuff. And like, I consider that to be true crime, but some of it is more kind of newsish.
00:01:14
Speaker
And I've always called it true crime news. I'm not sure that today's story fits as being like true crime news, but it is one of the most interesting things that that's been going on and it's taking place in Massachusetts. i don't know if you've heard about this.
Massachusetts Public Defender System Issues
00:01:30
Speaker
It's been going on just say 2025 for the the sake of this. Are you familiar with what's known as the, the Lavalier protocol? No.
00:01:41
Speaker
Okay. So they've gone through a period of time up there where, like How much do you know about public defender work in terms of like who it typically is, etc.?
00:01:58
Speaker
ah What do you mean? who Who do they represent or who the public defenders are? Who they are, what they do, who they represent. What do you know about like the general state of public defender work?
00:02:11
Speaker
I just know that... ah they fulfill the rule that everybody has the right to an attorney when they're facing criminal charges. I don't know a whole lot about, I've never had a public defender for anything.
00:02:25
Speaker
Right. And I've never, I don't even know that I've even met one or talked with one. i Maybe I have, but, so I don't know a whole lot. Under the Sixth Amendment, and then predicated on a ruling called known as Gideon,
00:02:41
Speaker
Which we covered it last year in our home for the holidays. We did. We covered kind of the origin story there. Everyone is entitled to a defense. And the folks who end up in that work as a full-time job, because there's like a couple ways that you get there. There is some pro bono and public institute legal wranglings that happen at law firms.
00:03:08
Speaker
You know, they do bono work. They take some civil cases, some family cases. They're typically choosy about how they take those cases. And a lot of young lawyers get on lists at local jurisdictions um to be before the court in, you know, district cases. Some people do traffic court to start out then move to district, then they move to superior court cases.
00:03:31
Speaker
A lot of people learn on the prosecution side, they'll start out as like assistant district attorneys or legal assistants. Well, it's it's sort of become this microcosm of the world that's almost more liberal-leaning.
00:03:47
Speaker
And that didn't used to be the case, but largely there have been underpinnings of that like sort of throughout the history of what's known as in indigent defense services.
00:03:58
Speaker
Typically... The way that works is you sign a waiver about your assets and your income, and ah judge takes a look at it, and they appoint the public
Public Defender Shortage and Its Consequences
00:04:08
Speaker
defender. But the truth is, if you're accused of a serious crime, nine times out of ten, you're probably eligible for a public defender because of how expensive it is to get legal services, particularly in in this day and age, and the younger you are.
00:04:27
Speaker
Well, it's come to a head recently in Boston, Massachusetts. um I'm pulling from three or four articles to put this together. Kimberly Bookman wrote one of them. There is another one written by David Binnick and Todd Kazikowicz.
00:04:43
Speaker
And then Imani Clement joins them from one of them.
00:04:50
Speaker
WCVB and WHDH, which is seven news and I think five news up there are covering this. um that's kind Five is ABC. I don't know who seven is. i can't remember if there's CBS or NBC.
00:05:07
Speaker
So all credit where credit's due, I'm pulling from those sources. There are some rulings on this you can go read. um You have to dig for them. But the bottom line is there has been a ah sort of a work stoppage up there in the kind of face of a shortage of attorneys.
00:05:27
Speaker
And here's what this one, uh, from Kimberly Bookman says over on seven news. it says defendants released from jail amid public defender work stoppage.
00:05:39
Speaker
Um, so again, this is wh. D H.com. It says a judge has decided to let Deshaun Lawrence out of jail after he says he spent over two weeks in custody because the court system could not find an attorney to represent him on a drug charge.
00:05:56
Speaker
Your constitution says that you're entitled to an attorney, said Lawrence. If you can't afford one, one will be and can and will be provided for you. So that was a violation of my constitutional rights.
00:06:08
Speaker
It's all due to public defenders in Massachusetts refusing to take on new clients until they get paid more. This is preventing cases from moving forward and sends people like Brittany Dagrica to sit behind bars, waiting for her day in court.
00:06:24
Speaker
There are a lot of people sitting here that need a lawyer that have kids and stuff like me. i have a seven-month-old. People like me need to get home to our kids, said Brittany, who was released from jail.
00:06:36
Speaker
There's a recent ruling called the Lavalier Protocol, and it's now making sure anyone in custody without a lawyer for seven days is to be set free. Those without a lawyer for 45 days could have their charges dismissed.
00:06:52
Speaker
According to rebec Rebecca Jacobson, who is representative of public counsel services up there, she said, I think it's terrible that we can't find lawyers. Everything
Fairness of Public Defender Wages
00:07:01
Speaker
we do is about finding counsel, effective assistance, representation, and a voice.
00:07:05
Speaker
A voice for people who have no voice, and right now these people have no voice, and it crushes us every day. All day Monday, a judge at Boston Municipal Court heard case after case of people in this situation.
00:07:17
Speaker
The Committee for Public Counsel Services had a private attorney in court to try to help some of them on their cases, but there were conflicts of interest. And when a case could not get picked up, the judge ruled to let the people go free.
00:07:31
Speaker
I'm pretty sure if I had legal counsel on my side that day, I would have been released and able to go back to work, and the judge would have cooperated more. This is from Deshaun Lawrence's quote. That's not exactly how it works, but it's how they're currently dealing with it. Did you just quote that the judge would have cooperated more That's what Deshaun Lawrence said.
00:07:52
Speaker
Okay. that was And that was the person who was incarcerated, right? Yeah, it was the purpose person who was incarcerated, yes. that Yeah, you're right. That's not how that works, but not quite. July 10th.
00:08:06
Speaker
ah David Vinick and Imani Clement for ah Massachusetts WCVB 5, they put up this on on July the 10th. It says,
00:08:19
Speaker
Several criminal defendants have been released so far as public defenders continue to to decline cases in Massachusetts due to do a pay dispute. Private attorneys who defend people who can't afford a lawyer are still not accepting cases.
00:08:31
Speaker
So the courts have started the release under the Lavalier Protocol. The protocol mandates any defendant held seven days without representation to be released from custody. Just to clarify, what they're saying is you can't be held on bail or without bail, meaning indefinitely, if you don't have a ah someone representing you.
00:08:52
Speaker
Right, but who's going to enforce that? A judge has to enforce that. It has to get before a judge. And everybody has to have a first appearance, so that is the place that they would start the clock, basically. Because you depending on the jurisdiction you're in, the court has different protocols to get you a first appearance.
00:09:10
Speaker
I work for a public defender's office. We do first appearances every time a first appearance comes up on the district calendar. So everybody comes through that process, and that's the point where you typically get a appointed an attorney.
00:09:26
Speaker
Right, and so do so are they seeing, like I know a lot of places, they just have a public defender that just basically stands there and does everybody's first appearance, right?
00:09:42
Speaker
Right, but they're not going to necessarily be the one who's appointed to and be on your case. That's what I was just going to ask. That one doesn't count, right? That does not count. Like that is like a – but Go ahead. Go ahead.
00:09:57
Speaker
The public defender that um I guess does that could be the one that says this person's been held for too long. Yeah. So I think the idea with the Lavalee protocol is that everybody gets a, andt i don't if you get your appointment at your first appearance and in seven days, like you do not have an attorney listed as representing you, they bring you back in for basically a second appearance.
00:10:21
Speaker
Right, and they have to let you go. Right, they have to let you go at this point in time. That doesn't mean your charges go away. But they the second part of this is that if they're going 45 days without counsel, they would dismiss the case for the time being.
00:10:33
Speaker
I will say that's probably temporary. um That is probably a situation that will eventually right itself. i i I agree with this. i I don't think people should just be sitting in jail. like Because, you know, you've just been arrested. this isn't anybody who's been like convicted, right Yeah.
00:10:55
Speaker
and I think that that is a place in our judicial system that runs amok sometimes, right? ah really does.
00:11:05
Speaker
And, you know, my initial thought before, you know, I put on my critical thinking skills hat, I think to myself, well, just don't do something to get yourself arrested, except that's not always how that works.
00:11:19
Speaker
Correct. Sometimes completely law-abiding citizens find themselves sitting behind bars. Right. Yeah, even if you go by the unfair like statistics that are out there, because they're barely collected, at least 10% of the population is arrested for things they just didn't do at all.
00:11:38
Speaker
And it can take multiple court dates to sort that out. Right. And so in the meantime, if you can't afford an attorney and you're not appointed one, you just sit there, right?
00:11:50
Speaker
Yeah. And so i do I agree that they should be. i don't I personally don't think... Anybody should spend any amount of time behind bars that they have not been sentenced to or are whatever whatever the right word would be. I don't think people should just be held willy-nilly, right?
00:12:11
Speaker
Right. Most jurisdictions at this point have gone to very serious felonies, depending on the jurisdiction you're in. the classes or like the numbers and letter scheme would be slightly different, but the most serious felonies are the ones that they hold you on.
00:12:24
Speaker
Typically homicide. And then like, it kind of
Public Defender Workload and Challenges
00:12:30
Speaker
scrolls down a list. Um, I know. And I feel like jurisdiction to jurisdiction, your mileage is going to vary. Correct.
00:12:39
Speaker
So I was curious, the reason I bring all this up is I was curious what kind of defendants were going free. They don't really mention it in that first story, but in the second story they do. um It says one of the defendants, Joshua Sullivan, was initially charged with an armed robbery and stabbing a coworker.
00:12:56
Speaker
So that, in my mind, armed robbery is a pretty serious felony. Stabbing can be a serious felony or it can be, in some places, believe it or not, you can be stabbed and it can be a misdemeanor.
00:13:10
Speaker
but Right, but that is an act of violence. It is an act of violence. um And frequently, depending on the severity of the stabbing, it can get sort of a lot of the alphabet added to what's known as an assault with a deadly weapon.
00:13:22
Speaker
And it could be inflicting serious injury with an intent to kill. So all those letters go together. looks like a big, long word that's like out us or something like that. yeah an pronounce it um So that's an interesting one. He was in custody on a $1,500 bond, this guy, Josh Sullivan.
00:13:39
Speaker
And then he was ordered released with an ank and with an ankle monitor while the state works out what's happening there, but mainly because the court could not find an attorney willing to take on his case.
00:13:54
Speaker
And this is interesting. They quote Suffolk County District Attorney Kevin Hayden as saying, He says he has been bracing for someone like Sullivan to be released because of the defense lawyer's work stoppage.
00:14:05
Speaker
He said, we can't kill ourselves. Does it affect public safety? Could have a bigger and larger impact on public safety? Yes, it could. That's according to Hayden. Another defendant was initially in custody after he was accused of strangling his pregnant wife.
00:14:17
Speaker
He was also released due to the work stoppage. and again, from hayden he says... Prosecutors are opposing the releases like this wherever they can, but he agrees that in many cases, if a defendant can't afford an attorney and the state can't provide one, the judge does not have a choice but to let them go.
00:14:35
Speaker
Hayden also said he agrees that the defense attorneys deserve ah raise, but acknowledge that state lawmakers are facing ah budget crunch.
00:14:44
Speaker
Go ahead. think I interrupted. Well, no, yeah. um I was just going to say, you can't force... public You can't force attorneys to work as public defenders and underpay them. Like, you can't say, too bad, you've got to do it Interesting, right?
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's it. And if you can, it only works if they all do it. Right. Because, you know, they just move on to the next person. And it seems like maybe it's come to a head here in Massachusetts because enough people have stopped representing it.
00:15:18
Speaker
To me, I think public safety should probably be prioritized. And part of that is you have to pay public defenders at least some compromising amount, right?
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, I doubt they're asking for, like, based on my knowledge, which as as far as the salaries and stuff go nationwide, have a good idea of the average, but i couldn't tell you specifics.
00:15:46
Speaker
I can tell you that, like, they're not in there making what people think of when they think of lawyer wages. I think you and have had conversations recently where like some places pay $25, $30, $40 an hour.
00:15:59
Speaker
Some places pay per case, and like you have to like fill out fee apps. and like So I openly see like what my colleagues make based on the fact that like public defenders are public employees. They're employees of the state or the court system, depending on where you are.
00:16:14
Speaker
Right. And nobody has to do that. No, they do not. it's a like It's a choice that people make. And the truth is, in some places, like one of the things that they struggle with is offices are frequently short-staffed anyways.
00:16:31
Speaker
So then you're piling up on the people that are in there. And you know i don't i don't know how many people understand this concept, but in local court systems, wherever you are, like whatever the name of your city is, or like people at home, um, you have a County and you have some kind of judicial district of one type or another.
00:16:53
Speaker
Weirdly, there are a lot of frequent flyers in the local jurisdiction. So because of that, and because of the fact that like people who are living unsheltered and people who are,
00:17:12
Speaker
using different substances and buying and selling substances from each other and people who are involved in domestic violence situations that also have substance issues and whatnot, you frequently end up with conflicts of interest where you can't represent a guy whose wife you just represented in a matter where he was the prosecution's witness.
00:17:30
Speaker
Right. And that just causes even more problems when you don't have attorneys to begin with, three right? Right. And frequently, Like, ah what I do is kind of unique.
Proposed Salary Increases for Defenders
00:17:41
Speaker
Like, there's not a lot of me in the United States. And I say that because, like, public defenders don't always have the work support staff that, like, a private firm attorney would.
00:17:54
Speaker
i know that, like, i but I also know that, like, some attorneys that I know that are defense attorneys and very good criminal defense attorneys, like, they have, like, one person who does everything for them.
00:18:07
Speaker
um So it's kind of a ah balancing act to make all of this work out. From what I could read about this, the state agency up in Massachusetts that represents public defenders, they had proposed pay increase for the bulk of their lawyers, meaning the people who are physically making appearances in court, so not the support staff, to go from $65 hour to $73 hour. This in Massachusetts.
00:18:33
Speaker
this is in massachusetts So $65 an hour, if my math is right, that's like ah around $125,000, $130,000. year? Yeah. so here yeah Which, in my opinion, is not a lot ah for a lawyer to be making, particularly in the day and age of student loans having to be repaid.
00:18:56
Speaker
um Yeah, law school is really expensive. Right. And so it would be about $145,000, $146,000 they're asking for. um That's for district court attorneys who carry huge caseloads in these counties, by the way.
00:19:10
Speaker
um They don't have like one or two defendants. They have a lot of defendants. um They were also asking for an increase for superior court lawyers to get eighty from $85 an hour to an hour.
00:19:26
Speaker
Superior court is where all the serious crimes take place. That's where they go to to be part of trial. um That's a heavier number for me to carry. Like they're asking for them to make around $210, $215 a year. it's just a an hour raise, right? Right.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, it is. People who handle murder cases in typically, depending on where you are, that could be a capital defender or could just be a homicide defender They're asking for them to bump their hourly rate from 120 to 150.
00:19:58
Speaker
And I will say this, they have more complex cases, but typically have fewer cases. um And they do fill in in a lot of other ways. So this is like a whole thing. It's basic economics, right? Supply and demand. You have to find people willing to work with...
00:20:17
Speaker
for what you're willing to pay that get the same results that the society that you represent want, right? Which would be, you know, people who didn't do crimes, not in jail and people who did do crimes in jail.
00:20:32
Speaker
And they're pushing back and they're pushing back in an effective way because somebody has got to make a decision, right? Yes. Do we, you know, do we want,
00:20:43
Speaker
to hold on to the dollars, put the dollars somewhere else, or do we want to save society? And to me, i mean, in some ways, you know, it could be a endless, relentless struggle here, but that's how everything in a, like, you know, I've talked about, um, our judiciary, our judicial system has its own economy. Yeah. Right.
00:21:09
Speaker
And this is part of that. And, It seems to me like people, if they understand it all, probably want effective public defenders and they're probably willing for the officials that are voting on this stuff to divert the funds accordingly.
00:21:31
Speaker
It's in every, you you know, I realize people might say, well, I'm never going to need a public defender, but like the public defenders, um the way that they work, they benefit everybody.
00:21:44
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And you got to keep that in mind. I don't think, I don't know about, um i don't know. i don't actually know what the cost of living in Massachusetts is compared to like where I'm at or whatever, but.
00:22:01
Speaker
it not all i And I also don't understand um entirely... you know, because it's not just $20 an hour for one person. It's like everybody that does that particular.
00:22:15
Speaker
So i don't I don't know what kind of differentiation and cost that we're looking at here, but I do realize that they've got to come to some sort of an agreement, whether it's what they're actually asking for or some other amount, but something's going to have to give because they're having to
Cost of Living vs. Defender Salaries
00:22:32
Speaker
release people. And I'm glad they're enforcing it. The worst thing is like when you have something in place,
00:22:38
Speaker
That's not being enforced. It sounds like ah this has come up and they're bringing attention to the issue by highlighting these cases that have recently, you know, because there is something to be said um for violent offenders being let out because,
00:22:59
Speaker
They don't have a public defender because nobody took the case, and they qualify for one. Well, i so I pulled cost of living averages across the United States just because I was curious.
00:23:11
Speaker
Hawaii is the most expensive place to live in the United States. The top five ah include California, District of Columbia, Alaska, and Hawaii.
00:23:22
Speaker
But the second most expensive place to live in the United States is Massachusetts. Right. So i to me, I don't know that those asks sounded so unreasonable.
00:23:33
Speaker
No, I don't think it's that unreasonable. And they even sound like negotiating numbers to me. like They sound like they're reaching. They'll settle if you know halfway if that doesn't work out. And that's the whole point, right, to get it moving.
00:23:46
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I live in a low cost of living index place. It's like way down the list, like probably around 30 or something, but like, it's more expensive to live in Massachusetts than it is California, DC, Alaska, New York, Maryland, New Jersey, Vermont, Washington. You know what i'm saying Like all those other States, everything except why is ah it's more expensive to live in Massachusetts.
00:24:11
Speaker
And Hawaii is not even close. Like it's like, 200% of everything else. Well, everything has to be shipped there. Yeah. yeah And that's why, that's exactly why it's it's so expensive.
00:24:23
Speaker
I did not know until I like looked this up that it was that expensive to live in Massachusetts. Well, I had a feeling it was anywhere that, um, has, uh,
00:24:34
Speaker
The high property taxes, right? Yeah. That's usually a good indication of kind of where you're at.
The Impact of Public Defenders' Absence
00:24:40
Speaker
Well, I actually don't know, but like where it would fall on what you're looking at, like an index of highest to lowest or whatever.
00:24:48
Speaker
And property taxes are a good indication of sort of the fiscal responsibility of the people that are elected to run different things.
00:25:00
Speaker
And I know New England, for the most part, most of those places have a higher cost of living. Well, I had pulled it up ah to to just kind of look at the cost of living, and I had kind of poked around a little bit to see, what they were paying their politicians up there.
00:25:19
Speaker
It does appear they're paying them pretty well. Well, in public defenders, I feel like they're almost, I don't know if it's politically correct to say this or not, but they're almost like the redheaded stepchild.
00:25:35
Speaker
a little bit, yeah. And so it's like they're necessary, but like they're sort of, they I personally think they should be getting paid at least as much as the prosecution team is getting paid.
00:25:48
Speaker
Yes, that is probably a good point. I will say public defenders frequently have more cases than the prosecution counterpart to their cases. but But yeah, they like there's a back and forth there where you could probably find some balance if you were to look at it that way.
00:26:04
Speaker
i I thought it was interesting that they were at ah at the point that they were having a work stoppage. Right. And see, that, I think, is where it matters because you've actually got enough people participating and not taking these cases right um to make a difference, right? Because, you know, if they've just got an endless list of people who will do it if you get to their name, you can't, this isn't, this will not be ah an effective strategy. When you've got a constant no to the point where people are having to be ah released without paying their
00:26:40
Speaker
their bail if uh because they don't have an attorney and you know it is a violation of your sixth amendment right if you say i want an attorney i can't afford one and that is approved or however they do it um and then you don't have one it's a violation of your constitutional rights yeah And it's a kind of a blatant one, right?
00:27:06
Speaker
ah And, you know, ah there's different points of cases, right? But I would say the beginning, ah right after the arraignment or whatever preliminary, what did you say? First appearance. First appearances, Right after first appearance, I say that could be a very important part of a case, right? Like you should be being let out.
00:27:32
Speaker
which I think was some of the people that were interviewed for that story. I think that was sort of their point. They're kind of being held pointlessly, but in, you know, some people, if they get locked up, even though they shouldn't be locked up, like their entire lives can fall apart.
00:27:52
Speaker
Oh yeah. You can lose your, like, that's, that's something that I, I see on um I'd say a monthly basis. You see people that lose their homes, their jobs, like there's all sorts of things that happen.
00:28:02
Speaker
And sometimes it's like, it's totally based on the decision a decision person made. Sometimes it's like not. And sometimes people did not do what they're accused of.
00:28:14
Speaker
And sometimes they could be out even though they've been accused of it until trial. Right. Right. Most instances, I would say like the bulk of instances, people should be out until trial.
00:28:27
Speaker
It's only like five or 10% of the cases that are like the worst of the worst where, You have to hold those people, particularly like when it's repeat offenders or very serious crimes. Well, when you were talking about frequent flyers and the and how that affects conflicts of interest with the public defender system or whatever, yeah I thought to myself, well, I think anytime you've got frequent flyers, they were talking about low-level offenses where they're not getting...
00:28:58
Speaker
a lot of punishment because how can you be a frequent flyer without getting stuck in jail for a long time? Right. i I feel like some of those, the laws need to be reconsidered.
Decriminalizing Lower-Level Offenses
00:29:12
Speaker
um Yeah, I think there are certainly, i would say there's efforts in some places to decriminalize or at least to refocus lower level offenses to ordinances and infractions um like marijuana is a great example.
00:29:30
Speaker
Like it's one of those things that for many, many years, it's been sort of the boogie drug, meaning, you know, it's out there, but like, it's really hard to find a source to get it, to smoke it, to do whatever.
00:29:43
Speaker
And then there's like so many problematic black market things that go on behind the scenes. So it built this entire subsect of the population that,
00:29:55
Speaker
ends up experiencing what's known as drug court. Now I know there are a lot of other substances now that take people to drug court, but it used to be marijuana was the big one. and you could be in trouble for trafficking marijuana and very easily get a multiple decade sentence in federal prison for it.
00:30:13
Speaker
Yeah, that was a big problem. Yeah, it was a huge issue. it went on for years. um It's not that it's gone away completely. It's just. They realized that it yeah didn't really apply for the mandatory minimum ah situation. Yeah.
Overview of 'Lizard Lick Towing' Show
00:30:30
Speaker
um I have a story on top of that one. It's not a super super long story.
00:30:36
Speaker
It just popped up in the news again recently. It actually took place a couple of years ago, but we're starting to see some of the court part of it. Do you watch reality television at all?
00:30:48
Speaker
Not really, no. Okay. um For a couple of years, ah one of my kids' friends watched this show and I did not at the time.
00:31:01
Speaker
like i don't i don't And to this day, I know a little bit about the show from the perspective of research done on it, but I don't know anything about like the people on the show.
00:31:12
Speaker
But this is an interesting story. So I'm going to talk a little bit about reality TV and then a true crime story that's intermingled here. There was a show that ran from 2011 to 2014, so for four seasons. It has 91 episodes.
00:31:28
Speaker
It's called Lizard Lick Toeing. This was an American reality show based out of North Carolina. um It was a spinoff of a series called All Worked Up.
00:31:43
Speaker
And the way that it all came together is originally two of the stars of the show were going to be ah on a show called Wife Swap. which is another reality show.
00:31:55
Speaker
Lizard Lake Towing is a real entity. um it's ah It's run by Ron and Amy Shirley out of an unincorporated area near Raleigh, North Carolina.
00:32:09
Speaker
It's called Windell, but there's this little tiny space in the middle of Windell that's known as Lizard Lake. It's one of those things that shows up on like list really... really like unusual names for cities.
00:32:23
Speaker
According to the background and the website for All Worked Up, which is, a it shows up on truetv.com, and the Raleigh News and Observer um and the Wayback Machine had News and Observer articles, and I think there was a brief mention in Rolling Stone, possibly, on there.
00:32:48
Speaker
ah Ron Shirley starts Lizard the Toy back in 1998. He has one truck and his wife Amy Shirley is his partner and the co-owner of his business. Over time they grow this company to include 15 staff members and they end up having around 20 trucks.
00:33:06
Speaker
ah Bobby Brantley is a character on the show and he's also ron Shirley's friend and longtime co-worker who had actually started out as a person who was dissatisfied with Ron Shirley having towed his truck.
00:33:19
Speaker
So he began working, according to the lore, for Lizard Link Towing to pay off his debt. Now, even though Ron and Amy were originally going to be part of Wife Swap, according to a little local newsletter down there called the Eastern Wake News, the television gets started in August of 2008 when when a cameraman is sent to do some test shoots for Ron and Amy Shirley.
00:33:49
Speaker
And the day is quite entertaining. And the network, True TV, was scouting out prospects for new shows. And they learned that like this family was kind of a weird mix of things.
00:34:03
Speaker
So Amy Shirley, the wife, is she's a power lifter. She's also a mortician. And she was a co-owner of Lizardly Towing. And for those of you who don't know what a towing company is, typically people think of it in the context of like helping disabled vehicles, but a large part of what towing and recovery companies do is to repossess vehicles.
00:34:25
Speaker
That's vehicles that aren't being paid on by whoever's driving them around.
00:34:30
Speaker
So True TV realized that this was a really weird group of people and they were very interesting and they wanted to capture some of what was happening. According to a woman named Robin Hutt,
00:34:43
Speaker
They fell in love with these people. They felt the name of the um lizard lick was interesting. And they wanted to start a television show that followed Ronnie and the people that were working there. and And they did. They called it All Worked Up.
00:35:00
Speaker
So they developed this show, All Worked Up, and it doesn't do exactly what they're looking for. But they redeveloped the show. And instead of focusing on Ronnie and his co-workers, like the tow truck drivers, they focus solely on Ronnie and Amy.
00:35:15
Speaker
And this becomes what is now known as Lizard Lake Towing. It premieres on February 7th of 2011, and it's going to run for four seasons. It's canceled at the end of the four seasons that had premiered December 16th, 2013.
00:35:29
Speaker
And we kind of like leave off with ah Lizard Lake Towing ah being like one of those things that like, you just don't think about that much anymore.
00:35:40
Speaker
I don't know that they've done anything since then in terms of creatively. But the way I get to this show, like I said, somebody in my life was watching it. And actually can't remember who. I know it was on in the background. So I saw pieces of it, but I never saw the whole show. It was honestly a little bit off-putting.
00:35:59
Speaker
Um, it was meant to be very dramatic. And for me, the only thing that I watched in terms of of stuff like this is I used to watch, uh, cops and I used to watch the live PD show.
00:36:12
Speaker
That was mainly with my, my kid. My kid really liked cops and live PD. Where we pick up those in 2022. And i remember reading about this when it happened.
00:36:23
Speaker
it was It was quite bizarre. I went to the Wiki for Lizardly Towing, and they do mention this. And here's what it says. It says, on February 17th, 2022, Ron Shirley, so the star of Lizardly Towing, his son, Alex Harley, was shot and killed outside a home in Garner, North Carolina.
00:36:46
Speaker
Authorities in Johnson County subsequently arrested two teenagers for the shooting of Alex Harley Shirley, and his female companion, Sophie Hagee. Had you ever heard of the shooting before i dragged you into this? Just um just it when it hit in the news briefly when it happened.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah. So because of the proximity to some of my family and whatnot, like there's people involved in this show, like from a crew perspective and some of the character perspective, that like actively posted on social media that i had friends in common with. So I saw some of this going on,
00:37:22
Speaker
um I did not pay a ton of attention to it. But I pulled up the first thing that I remember being tagged on Facebook, and I had saved it a long time ago to a list.
Tragic Shooting Involving 'Lizard Lick' Family
00:37:35
Speaker
It's from Jax Miller writing for Yahoo.com Entertainment. And it's Friday, March 11, 2022. And here's what it says. um Deputies are searching for a fifth suspect nearly one month after the son of two reality TV stars was shot dead.
00:37:53
Speaker
Now, it's going to contradict some of the stuff that was in that wiki summary. That's why I'm going here and saying what I'm saying. It says that Harley Shirley, known as, quote, Alex, 21, was found shot to death at a Sheetz convenience store in Garner, North Carolina on February the 17th.
00:38:11
Speaker
So Oxygen has gotten a hold of this, and they have emailed emailed out like a press release about this. Not sure what they're doing there, but I get it. People were interested in these people and the show.
00:38:23
Speaker
Johnston County authorities have since arrested two women and two teenage boys in connection with the shooting, which also left a 20-year-old woman paralyzed. This is according to a Facebook post from the Lizard Look towing folks.
00:38:40
Speaker
And... ah This post basically pops up on February 26, 2022 from Lizardly Toe in Recovery. It says, so a person gets arrested on a felony charge, the fourth thus far, with a few more to go in this senseless murder slash execution of our son and the shooting of his friend.
00:39:00
Speaker
And their Facebook and TikTok get mystically totally deleted several hours later. If a person is innocent until proven guilty as the law grants, what can you possibly have to hide unless you have a guilty conscience?
00:39:11
Speaker
We will not hate and we will pray for the families of all involved on both sides of this senseless murder, but we will not stop pursuing justice on all fronts, either for our dead son or the paralyzed young lady that is suffering also.
00:39:23
Speaker
When you start to hide, there is always a reason for trying to ghost or go ghost. Trying to go ghost doesn't allow a person to go guiltless. If you are involved, they will find you. Too many chirping birds now, and I believe truly vengeance is God's, not ours, but justice is ours.
00:39:39
Speaker
And even if we can't forgive you, God always will. But forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. You will have to answer for the lives you've taken and change forever, either firsthand or by trying to cover up the crime.
00:39:50
Speaker
The evidence you have hidden and the heart that you have broken, our God will always be bigger than our problems. But our triumph will come when you all answer for this tragedy. You can't hide now. You can't run or disappear either.
00:40:02
Speaker
The only thing you can do is face your faults and pray to the only one that can forgive you forever. This is a long road, but we have hiking boots that are prepared for this trip. So, you know, thousands of shares and comments on this.
00:40:14
Speaker
A lot likes, lot of people talking about Lizard Lake towing and recovery. They're still around.
Community Response to Shooting Incident
00:40:23
Speaker
They're kind of a conservative group. um You know, they they talk a lot about God and politics.
00:40:29
Speaker
I don't personally know, like, the key characters in this. I did feel like this was an interesting tragedy. um And the differences made me wonder, like, what had happened here.
00:40:43
Speaker
So I scrolled through, like, the two different GoFundMes. One was for a scholarship in Alex Shirley's name. Had $30,000 goal. Raised
00:40:56
Speaker
um And it's like kind of the typical stuff that you would expect to hear from parents about children who have been lost. Very tragic to read. Very sad. i don't know anything about Alex Shirley.
00:41:10
Speaker
What's interesting is there's this other page talking about Sophie Hagee. There's $88,000 raised against goal for her. And it says, Sophie is 20 years old. She's a beautiful, kind young woman who has an entire life ahead of her.
00:41:26
Speaker
Sophie is now paralyzed following following a shooting that took place while she was attending a memorial service. So keep that in mind. As she innocently attended a balloon release to support the loss of another peer who had been killed tragically in a car accident, Sophie was shot twice in her back.
00:41:44
Speaker
One bullet remains lodged in her spine and severed her spinal cord. She is now paralyzed from her waist down. As expected, Sophie is in shock, overwhelmed by emotion, and is having a difficult time processing what has happened.
00:41:59
Speaker
Sophie and her family are attorney eternally grateful for anything you can give to assist with medical costs.
00:42:06
Speaker
What's wild about this is people are still posting on this page, like in 2025. I don't see a lot of donations coming in or anything like that.
00:42:18
Speaker
they have for some reason reopened the donations. She's got an ongoing condition. Well, I understand that. I totally understand that. And there's a whole group out there um that is dedicated to like assisting her.
00:42:35
Speaker
Sure. like you know And it it is very interesting to me, like the people that have come together around her I will say that like I have seen images of her in 2023.
00:42:52
Speaker
She appears to be walking. I don't know if that is 100% accurate. I think it's like one of those things that maybe they're doing some kind of experimental treatment and that's one of the things that's costing so much. Oh, see.
00:43:05
Speaker
So I hope that like something is happening there. And I kind of held off till now to talk about this because it's always complex when like stuff is ongoing legally.
00:43:17
Speaker
Like it's it's difficult to cover. I know people do it all the time. They cover live trials and we talk about it. But the truth is like things can change depending on the outcome. I do feel like this case is finally getting to a point where, you know, be talked about.
00:43:32
Speaker
And it is so interesting to me how the media is presenting this. So I'm gonna like kind of walk through a series of articles here that talk about this.
00:43:44
Speaker
um and some of the information is going to be repeated, and I'm using both of the sources e because I don't necessarily know which part is true, and i just find it fascinating.
00:43:58
Speaker
This is coming out of WREL, which is news source in Raleigh, North Carolina, on July 11th at 6.02 p.m.
Court Sentences and Emotional Impact
00:44:07
Speaker
It just says by WREL staff, and it says Shattered Beyond Recognition. That's the title of it.
00:44:14
Speaker
um It says, on Friday, a judge sentenced Joshua Stewart to between 33 and 38 years in prison. This is at least three decades for his role in the February 2022 shootings that killed two people in Clayton, North Carolina.
00:44:31
Speaker
I'm saying that again, and I'm going to point this out, because now we have Wendell as a potential place. We have Garner as a potential place where these kids were shot. And now we have Clayton, North Carolina.
00:44:44
Speaker
I think that um Garner was where the defendant was from. Right, but that's where the sheets is.
00:44:54
Speaker
Okay. It's like that all over the place. like they that's why i That's why I think nobody's claiming these articles and just says by staff. It says, Stuart, 20 years old, pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder.
00:45:11
Speaker
He was 17 during the February 17th, 2022 shootings of Alex Shirley and his friend, Sophie Hagee.
00:45:22
Speaker
So he's 17 years old when he's doing this. Alex Shirley dies in these shootings. This is still with the article.
Details of the Shooting Incident
00:45:31
Speaker
He's the son of Ronnie Shirley Jr. who starred on the show Lizard Like Towing.
00:45:36
Speaker
Sophie Hagee survived with two gunshot wounds to the back. left her paralyzed from the waist down. Family members of the two victims spoke at Friday's sentencing hearing.
00:45:49
Speaker
So the mother of Alex Shirley is not Amy Shirley. It is a woman named Christy Lee.
00:45:59
Speaker
Christy Lee says, my word is decimated, shattered beyond recognition, 20 shots were fired.
00:46:07
Speaker
Alex, my precious son, suffered 12 wounds. He did not die in a hospital surrounded by love. He bled out alone in a Sheetz parking lot.
00:46:22
Speaker
Alexis Shirley, who is Alex Shirley's brother, also spoke out in court on Friday and said, Alex wasn't just my brother. He was my heart, my best friend.
00:46:34
Speaker
Josh Stewart destroyed every sense of safety and joy that we once had He turned my life into a before and after. Before you killed him and after, I had to figure out how to keep breathing without him.
00:46:47
Speaker
And Jeff Hagee, who is Sophie Hagee's father, he comes in to deliver a victim's impact statement in court as well. And he says, I can't forgive you because I don't feel anything anymore but anger.
00:47:03
Speaker
According to the reporters, Josh Stewart was crying at this point. He was wiping tears away as Jeff Hagee confronted him. Four other people have either faced or face, currently, charges related to the February 17, 2022 shootings.
00:47:21
Speaker
I'm bringing all of these guys into it because it's interesting to me how like the investigative timeline is kind of revealed. So... They state February 17th, Alex Shirley was killed on Josephine Road after attending that memorial balloon release for his friend who had died a car crash.
00:47:42
Speaker
Detectives discovered Alex Shirley's body in a car parked at Sheetz. And according to the court, he was sitting in the backseat of the car's driver's side when gang members approached the car and fired 20 shots, killing him and striking Hagee, who was sitting next to Alex.
00:48:01
Speaker
This according to a statement from the clerk of courts. Now we're going to talk about some of the other people. So first of all, if you're a kid, and these people, if you look at their pictures, um they're clearly children.
00:48:15
Speaker
the Sophie and um
00:48:19
Speaker
Alex Shirley was trying to see if had the reason so Sophie she's 20 years old when the I think they both are are they both 20 19 and 20 they're young people but they're in back of a car what would possess people to shoot 20 shots into the back of a vehicle
00:48:46
Speaker
there To me, there's no ah there's no reason to ever do that. yeah Yeah. I mean, i don't I can't think of a single good reason to do it. um Because 20 shots is a lot.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. whole lot. We don't have any idea why this happened, right? No, we don't. that's that's what That's one of the reasons I'm bringing this up because it's a really good example of like, these people are kind of famous, not like in a major way, but like, you know, people talk about, people have recently been talking a lot about justice for the rich and famous. It's different.
00:49:26
Speaker
I don't know there is any justice in this case. I cannot figure this case out. Well, it sounds like, so there were five people total charged, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's almost, if I was going to be stereotypical, I would say that it sounds exactly like some stupid gang initiation thing. Except some of the people's charts are really weird.
00:49:50
Speaker
Are really what? It's weird. Like, who's charts? So that kid that we were just talking about was 17 years old, right? Right. So just throwing that out there, that could kind of be timing for some kind of gang thing, yeah.
Arrests and Charges in the Case
00:50:04
Speaker
Do want me to talk about one of the other ones, or did you have more to that thought? um Well, no, go ahead. So back in December, so December 4th of 2024, Brett Neese for the WRAL, like the local news, he wrote an article and said a Gardner man was sentenced Wednesday to 40 years in prison for the February 17th shootings of Alex Shirley, 21, from Clayton. That's the first place I've seen his age.
00:50:33
Speaker
And his friend, Sophie Hagee. Following a two-week trial, Nathan Jackson, 18, was found guilty of first-degree murder, attempted murder, two counts of felony discharging a firearm into a vehicle inflicting serious injury, among other charges.
00:50:48
Speaker
The prison sentence for first-degree murder is life without parole, but since Jackson was 16 when he committed the crimes, 16 years old, he must serve 40 years in prison to be eligible.
00:51:00
Speaker
Alex Shirley was killed on Josephine Road after attending a balloon memorial release. Sitting in the backseat of the car's driver's side on February 17th, when gang members approached the car, fired 20 shots, killing Alex and striking Sophia Hagee, who was sitting next to Alice.
00:51:17
Speaker
Hagee survived, but two gunshot wounds to the back left her paralyzed from the waist down. WRAL News on Wednesday spoke to the families of both victims who had been listening to the trial play out for weeks at the Johnson County Courthouse.
00:51:29
Speaker
After Wednesday's sentencing, Christy Lee, this is Alex Shirley's mom, said that it had been an emotional three years and she's starting to feel some relief. She said, I felt a lot of relief. It's not closer. You don't get closer when you have to bury your child and see the gruesome things that we saw.
00:51:45
Speaker
She said, Alex Shirley's missed every day. it has actually decimated my world. I still say goodnight to an empty bedroom. I text his cell phone. The dogs still go into his room looking for him every single day.
00:52:01
Speaker
gian Gene Hagee, Sophie's mom, was also relieved of the decision. She said, committing crimes in a split second is not worth it because people's lives are changed forever. Ronald Shirley Jr., Alex's father, starred on the show Lizard's looked towing. He and his wife told WRAL News that they were doing what they can to move forward.
00:52:21
Speaker
He said, if I leave this courthouse and this trial with anything else, I want people to know that you have to learn to forgive no matter what. You have to learn to love no matter how hard. So at this point, we point out that four people are charged and they are still looking for a fifth person. Okay? 2024.
00:52:38
Speaker
twenty twenty four Four people charged, still looking for a fifth person. So now we have Joshua Stewart, 17. We have this kid who is 16 when it happens, Nathan Jackson.
00:52:52
Speaker
there These are young, young people doing this. In the middle of nowhere, by the way. This is not like is not a city. All of the places that I named... Garner, Wendell, Clayton, all the places that I named Garner, Wendell, Clayton, they're like kind of far out from Raleigh, which I do consider to be a city, Raleigh, North Carolina.
00:53:14
Speaker
Now we have that. Here's the other two charges. We have that. Here's the other two charges. Cassidy, Laureen, Hunter, is she was arrested and charged with accessory after the fact and authorities are holding Cassidy Hunter at the Johnson County jail on a million dollar bond.
Legal Complexities and Delays
00:53:35
Speaker
That's right now, like today, she's being held on a million dollar bond three years after this happened.
00:53:44
Speaker
So the other person is Diana Sarah Jackson. She was charged with obstructing justice related to the shooting investigation. Essentially, that means she either touched some evidence or she lied during the course of this investigation to defend someone.
00:54:02
Speaker
I am assuming that that is Nathan Jackson and that she is mom, aunt, sister to him. Authority is still holding her at the Johnson County Jail on a $100,000 secure bond.
00:54:16
Speaker
In June of 2025, they arrested Kibvon Nicholson. He gets arrested in Philadelphia. And they charge him with the same charges as Nathan Jackson and Joshua Stewart.
00:54:36
Speaker
He is now in the process of being, I think he's just been extradited back to White County, North Carolina. The last update I read, I think was June 29th. They were in the process of doing that.
00:54:48
Speaker
um So he fled some degree. It is so interesting to me how this is all still so slowly unraveling if it took place out of Sheetz.
00:55:03
Speaker
The reason I say that is because Sheetz has some of the best cameras. They're really only, they're probably third on the list. I think the first best cameras are Walmart, the second best are Target.
00:55:16
Speaker
may It could have been a blind spot, I guess. I don't know. Maybe they it's been more about making ah accurate identifications, right?
00:55:27
Speaker
A lot of times, you can have a very, at especially with, you know, we're talking about 16, 17-year-olds. It's not like they're going to have a mug shots and stuff, right? Correct.
00:55:38
Speaker
And there were at the time this was all going down, i don't know if you remember this or not, North Carolina had some wonky rules about how you identify people and like you particularly those who are underage like could only be identified once they it transferred to but upper courts it couldn't be like when they're wanted oh yeah i i vaguely remember the ins and outs of that but so that could be part of what the delay was i actually saw now i've seen it i don't know what happened here um i saw that
00:56:12
Speaker
There was shooting like in front of the house that they were out at for the memorial. So I didn't know it But then I saw where somebody wrote that they were sitting and at the sheets and somebody just shot 20 shots into it.
00:56:27
Speaker
i don't I don't know what was going on. I don't know if it was targeted. I have a feeling it was... It may not have been targeted. And that's why you have all these additional people getting charged.
00:56:40
Speaker
Because when you have a random crime like that, because, you know, if it really, if it was random, then it could have been absolutely anyone.
00:56:50
Speaker
Right. And that's really scary. And so a lot of times law enforcement or the prosecutor's office will really jump on those cases to kind of ah just shake things up. And, you know, if, like you said, if one of them was the mom who, who probably, you know, misdirected police or I don't know what she did, but she got charged. Right.
00:57:17
Speaker
And ah then there was an accessory after the fact. And so only Kavon Nicholson, was he arrested for, uh,
00:57:29
Speaker
well Do you know what he was charged with? Let me pull him up really quick. He was actually just arrested, right? Yeah. I don't know that I've seen the full list of charges. these I saw something that indicated he was going to be charged with ah something that looks similar to Josh Stewart and the Jackson kid.
00:57:52
Speaker
I think I saw that Nathan Jackson, Kevon Nicholson... And Josh Stewart, I was trying to think like how you get there to the 20 bullets.
00:58:05
Speaker
So I'm imagining three guns, but I don't know that that's accurate. Right. Something like that. um Or, you know, even one gun with a switch in this day and age.
00:58:16
Speaker
um I definitely have a handgun that has 23 rounds in it. So that could be a thing. I am assuming he's going to be charged similarly to how they were charged. But, you know, the fact that he fled to Philadelphia probably isn't going to help him.
00:58:30
Speaker
Right. And so i don't know. I don't know what happened with this. It seemed like there was some controversy around it. That's been kind of swept under the rug, right?
00:58:41
Speaker
Well, because...
00:58:46
Speaker
Well, my thought was he was sitting in the back seat, I assume because the people who were in the front seat had gone in or something. Yeah. I don't i don't know. but And so that makes it less likely to be targeted, I think, unless he knew these people and they knew he was in the car with somebody else, right?
00:59:05
Speaker
Yeah. and it just seems like such a random occurrence. so The other thing I thought was... maybe some sort of like rage, like road rage or, you know, just something stupid that got blown out of proportion.
00:59:21
Speaker
yeah But we haven't ever heard anything about, well, not that I've been following this really closely or anything, but I've never heard anybody say, except I did hear like that all of the, at least the teenage defendants that were charged were part of
Exploration of Shooting Motives
00:59:41
Speaker
a gang. Yeah.
00:59:42
Speaker
Right. And i so this all comes up now. And last year, another case with a kid named Nicholas Nicholson in this area that I don't know if he is or is not related to any of these people.
00:59:57
Speaker
He was and charged with a shooting death down there. It's another case where he really quickly racked up first-degree murder, discharging a weapon into a vehicle, felony conspiracy, discharging a firearm within city limits.
01:00:16
Speaker
And it's another woman who was found shot inside of her car. And I was wondering if it was like road rage killings I think it might be a gang initiation. I even thought back to, and like, this is the reason I brought all of this up today. And like, what I'm hoping is that at some point I can follow up on all this with the appellate documents.
01:00:39
Speaker
Cause I'm guessing that Nathan Jackson's attorneys will appeal his, but it probably isn't time yet to see that. um I'm, I'm hoping it'll be like one of those standard statements of facts so we can know more about this. Sure.
01:00:53
Speaker
um But what I was going to say was Do you remember like crazy chain letters that we used to get? Like, i don't, like not literally in the mail. They started out as like early emails and they now are kind of urban legend-y.
01:01:11
Speaker
Yeah. That like, if they flash your lights and you flash and if you flash your lights at somebody and they, uh, that gangs were,
01:01:23
Speaker
exploiting that and like they turn around and killed somebody or something like that. Right. And like, I'm not saying that's what happened here. And ah let me be clear. i I was trying to get it out. But like, basically, somebody would drive around without their lights on.
01:01:36
Speaker
And they'd wait for the person to flash their lights to Which is, you know, ah common courtesy indication that, hey, buddy, your lights aren't on, turn them on, right? Right. And they would go after the person, right? And I don't know if that was urban legend or what, but I know stopped flashing my lights at that point in time. Because I didn't want to deal with any sort of fallout like that, right? How dumb. Yeah.
01:02:04
Speaker
And so I don't know if it really happened. I was really young then. But that's stupid, right? Right. i Well, that's what I thought, too. And this is sort of where I'm heading with So it is it's an urban legend. That's what it is.
01:02:16
Speaker
The only reason I like am mentioning that part of it here is because back in 1992, there was a woman named Kelly Freed in Stockton, California.
Comparing Real Events with Urban Legends
01:02:26
Speaker
who ends up being murdered after allegedly flashing her headlights on another car that did not have its headlights on at night.
01:02:34
Speaker
And it was believed that the shooters from the other car took it as a sign of disrespect. So it's more like a road rage kind of thing than it is an initiation. But I was wondering if I thought that.
01:02:48
Speaker
because of remembering that story, like, is that why I jumped to gang initiations? Is that why the detectives are saying gang initiations? Or like, cause if, if that's really going on, we're not being told now or it's being lost.
01:03:06
Speaker
Um, if it's like some kind of gang initiation where people under the age of 18 are driving around and if you flash your lights at them, they shoot up your car. We're not being told if that happens. And I'm, Not saying that's what's happening.
01:03:19
Speaker
But I was wondering if that's even how they get that this 16, 17, 18-year-old people are in a gang to begin with.
Impact on Families and Community
01:03:28
Speaker
And it's really just road rage for immature drivers.
01:03:31
Speaker
Right. Or it's, I mean, I can't imagine anything but stupidity leading to this happening. ah You've got, you know, possibly three young men walking up to a car in a...
01:03:47
Speaker
gas station parking lot, and whether they knew two people were in there or not, who knows, but they shot the car 20 times. Right. I mean, that could have been a baby back there. Like, it just... it It's senseless, right?
01:04:03
Speaker
But that's unsafe to begin. I mean, you don't ever want anybody shooting 20 bullets out in public for no good reason. no you do not. And it obviously... I mean...
01:04:16
Speaker
I would imagine that it was a ruckus, right? It wasn't like it was a hidden crime because people would have heard it. I mean, I don't know about this particular area, but sheets normally have tons of people there, right? At any given time.
01:04:35
Speaker
And so people would have heard it and saw it and whatever else. And so it, to me, there is nothing but stupidity to it. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not even a good crime, right? No, it's horrible. It's absolutely horrible.
01:04:51
Speaker
And the fact that they, which I don't mean like good, like good versus bad, but I mean like it it's a dumb crime and they're not even like criminally savvy about it.
01:05:04
Speaker
And, you know, they immediately, well, not immediately, but eventually they get caught and sentenced. But, know, There may have been a beef. There may have been a problem. It may have been a personal thing.
01:05:15
Speaker
um And, you know, that would make a little more sense. But they were older than those kids, right? Yeah. And that would be... really weird and i don't know which is worse in this situation whether it's random or personal but all of it's stupid and I can't even imagine just sitting in the back seat of a a car at a gas station waiting for my friends to come back out and get shot and killed yeah Yeah, I just thought this was like, you know, we talk about like big spooky stories all the time where we're talking about serial killers and we're talking about like these unsolved murders and mysteries and people who were sentenced to death row.
01:05:56
Speaker
And, you know, it kind of dawned on me when I was looking at this that like so many lives have been changed by what you and I know to be An incident that involved 20 bullets in a gas station parking lot going into the back of a car in sheets in a little town in North Carolina.
01:06:19
Speaker
So many people were changed by that happening. Right. And it none of it for the better, right Not at all. Because what did those kids doing it, what did they get out of that?
01:06:31
Speaker
Jail for the rest of their lives? I mean, for the most part, yeah. Like if you're 20 years old going into jail for 30 years, you're not getting out to your 50s. I mean, yeah, you're in jail for basically the best parts of your life.
01:06:43
Speaker
Do you think it's possible, and again, don't know because if there's a generational shift happening, but... Do you think, like, they got their hands on some guns and, like, they wanted to just see what it would be like?
01:07:01
Speaker
I don't know. i I wonder that. Like, I throw Road Rage in there. i wondered if they were, like, setting up some kind of drug meeting. I wonder all sorts of things that, like, I don't have any evidence of.
01:07:15
Speaker
Well, the issue I have with the Road Rage thing is, like, they didn't kill a driver. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. And so they were far enough.
01:07:28
Speaker
There was enough distance that the, well, this is my assumption because there's not a whole lot of details. And my assumption is car pulls into the sheets, the driver and the passenger in the front get out and go in to do whatever.
01:07:45
Speaker
And he is sitting there and she is sitting there in the backseat. Right. Right. And so there's enough distance for that to happen as far as any sort of confrontation that occurred.
01:07:57
Speaker
We also don't know if the kids were driving. All we know is that they walked up to the car. Correct. And so that's the other thing. Like, you know, it's not a drive-by shooting.
01:08:09
Speaker
It was a walk-up shooting. Yeah, and like if it if it weren't a Sheetz parking lot, I would wonder like if it were like a Lover's Lane type shooting where they were in the backseat and doing something like that. but that least Do you know what time it was?
01:08:21
Speaker
I don't know. That was another thing I wondered, like if it was like the middle of the night, but they just had a balloon release apparently, so that would be probably... it would be light outside, i would think.
01:08:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, i would I would assume it probably... was light outside like like i said i'm hoping that um you know i can bring this one back up and like have appellate documents in my hand and like get it a little more into it i don't have a lot more today with like what's sitting in front of me i just thought it was so interesting how far reaching something so senseless senseless and like kind of seemingly small in a way although it is 20 bullets which is a lot um i just thought it was interesting how farreaching it
01:09:07
Speaker
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01:09:21
Speaker
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01:09:41
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01:10:02
Speaker
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01:10:13
Speaker
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01:10:31
Speaker
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