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Season Six: Derailments Ahead
131 Plays1 day ago
In today’s episode, we discuss the state of true crime and some case updates.
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Transcript
Content Warning and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
Host Projects and True Crime Focus
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:00:57
Speaker
So it it's interesting. We have multiple long-form things going on in the background. Like we have the holidays being recorded. And I have been gathering records and books on three different things for kind of the fall. And then I have this interesting topic that's like sort of longish form around Halloween.
00:01:22
Speaker
you find it... um I don't know what the – what do you think about the fact that, you know, almost six years ago we started ah basically a show,
00:01:34
Speaker
Right. right And i recall briefly panicking, like, if we were going to continue, what on earth we would talk about, right? do you for what What do you think about how there's a never-ending flow?
00:01:50
Speaker
And we don't even cover – for the most part, the mainstream true crime like flow of information. we We skim over it sometimes, but we pick from like other sources of things that we feel like are important to bring light to.
00:02:08
Speaker
And so what do you think about that? It's kind of crazy, isn't it? Yeah, we've been doing this for a long time. And we were investigating even more before that. So...
00:02:20
Speaker
One of the things I realized is I'm always going to have questions about a lot of cases and I don't like to cover. but Sometimes I'll cover like something that's in the news, but I'm not covering it because, ohh look at this, all these facts. I'm covering it because like something raises a question for me.
00:02:38
Speaker
And I realized I was always going to have
Career Reflections and Crime Technology
00:02:40
Speaker
questions. And you and I like had this long conversation about me going back to work as a criminal investigator and how that would affect this.
00:02:49
Speaker
And like i so I have this weird thought on working investigations, and that is people are always going to be committing crimes. You're just not always going to see them in the news. So until something major happens, which won't be in our lifetime,
00:03:05
Speaker
I have like really good job security in that field. Right. To investigate crimes. Now I will say that I think the, in our lifetime, I think the biggest thing has already happened and it's DNA and it's the genetic genealogical genealogical matching. Right.
00:03:26
Speaker
I think that's going to be the biggest deterrent going forward as it continues to be a thing. i'm I'm saying like deterrent for people to commit the crime, right?
00:03:39
Speaker
I think i I agree with you, but I think there's a coupling there with another thing. So, and this is not like an argument with you. I'm just saying.
00:03:51
Speaker
No, sure. it's justt it might That's just my opinion. DNA is definitely huge. I would say either second to that or like alongside that laterally, i think technology is,
00:04:05
Speaker
like Okay, yes, I agree with that. Specifically... Like the fact that we carry around in our pocket, unless you're just one of those unusual people who does not have any kind of device.
00:04:18
Speaker
Because there are people like that that still operate in the world. Yes, there are. And there are people who aren't on social media. And there people who, I mean, there are old school people. Now, most of them are probably, what, over, i would say they're mid-40s at least, probably. I don't think that there's many 30-year-olds that aren't.
00:04:38
Speaker
on social media. Yeah. I mean, I, there's younger people that like, it's harder to track them. I get, I have a lot of juvenile cases right now for the sake of clarification. I only do major crimes.
00:04:51
Speaker
Like I don't, I'm not assigned to things. Usually like if I'm assigned to something that's a misdemeanor or a low level felony, it's usually like a simple fact finding thing that I can probably do from my desktop or my phone.
00:05:05
Speaker
Right. And that's reflected in resources, right? Right. Investigations that they have to merit. Right. Not from your point of view, but from like the funds allocated. Right.
00:05:17
Speaker
So I work for essentially about 12 attorneys and it's just me and the 12 attorneys. And I work for a district that has like in it about 13 law enforcement agencies. Right.
00:05:33
Speaker
And you're on the defense side. I'm on the defense side. So it's just me against all those people. And the idea is i have X amount of hours in the week. How do i allocate those hours?
00:05:45
Speaker
And I would say probably the three things I spend the most time on.
Roles and Daily Tasks in Crime Investigation
00:05:51
Speaker
And like there's, you know, usually like somebody else to assist a little bit with it. Cause we have interns that rotate in and out that are law students. We have social worker interns that rotate in and out, but yeah,
00:06:03
Speaker
The three or four things that I spend the most amount of time on, ah one is like interacting with defendants, particularly defendants that are in custody because we have a lot of those and you have to get as much information as possible.
00:06:15
Speaker
Glean what's true and move on. Two, the second most common thing for me is all the technology people are carrying around in their pockets.
00:06:26
Speaker
So that's phone dumps usually. Like you get Cellbrite, you get Axiom Magnet, like you're going through people's lives, whether they're a witness or potentially a prosecution's witness, or meaning ah a witness for either side, like kind of neutral, or a prosecution's witness or a defense witness, or they are decedent, or they are defendant. Like you're going through their whole life on You know these massive phone dumps. That's a huge new thing Body camera footage is like a big one and then everything else that goes into discovery which might be ballistic reports or autopsy reports um Could be surveillance from the scene. It could be other people people's cameras that they've taken footage of for some kind, but you don't have the whole phone. You just end up with like these sort of eyewitness videos. um
00:07:15
Speaker
Those are the things that I go through on a daily basis. In one case, can easily be like 100 hours of stuff um that you have
Impact of DNA in Crime Solving
00:07:25
Speaker
to go through. But you do get months and months to do it.
00:07:28
Speaker
I know you've seen bits and pieces of of like the different things that I um um am doing on a daily basis. So i I throw in there the technology part with your DNA. um I do think the DNA...
00:07:42
Speaker
I think it's the biggest thing in sexual assault and murder cases is DNA. Yeah. That's what I, I guess that's what i sort of meant was like the big ones where like you've got murders happening. Right. expect And you know, it comes up because, um it is what it is. Most of the time you're talking about a circle of people that one of those people is going to be the suspect. Right.
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah. And, DNA just sort of affirms that. And I guess what I was thinking was these like horrific stranger-type murders that rarely ever happen, right?
00:08:20
Speaker
Those, I think, are... ah going to be a deterrent to somebody who, because, you know, if you are committing a violent crime for a ah traditional motivation purpose, like love, money, or revenge, then We talk about those cases because they're interesting and we bring to light things that we have questions about or like we try to note, like here's something interesting happening. And most of the time it's from like either the evidentiary standpoint or the legal standpoint, but those aren't really the meat and potatoes of our true crime
Israel Keyes Case Discussion
00:09:03
Speaker
world. Back in the day...
00:09:06
Speaker
And we actually talked about it quite a bit with Keys about how his whole motivation was that like he would never be caught because he had no connection to the victims, right?
00:09:17
Speaker
And in a lot of ways, he had no connection to the place where the victims were victimized, right? Right. The DNA aspect of that makes that go away. That's my thinking.
00:09:30
Speaker
I do agree, however, that technology is... For just about every crime, technology becomes this. you can't sur I don't think you can surmount ah a lot of it.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's gotten so – mentioned keys. That's now 13 years ago, which is like crazy for me to think about the fact that he's gone for 13 years.
00:09:57
Speaker
um But he took like rudimentary steps to sort of evade technology um that wouldn't work today. they would like There are things that like were just coming to be like really...
00:10:11
Speaker
ah commonly used that would have caught him. And that's license plate readers. ah Surveillance cameras are everywhere now. um There are multiple places that did not have surveillance cameras when he was operating that now have cameras.
00:10:27
Speaker
ah The flock system is in play. That's a very difficult one to overcome as a defense person because the flock system is a mixture of these live rolling cameras that capture things and license plate readers.
00:10:38
Speaker
um it's it's like It's ingenious, but it's very frustrating from a defense perspective. um I will say, one of the interesting things about technology,
00:10:50
Speaker
that I think couples with DNA and is how much, and and we have started to see this in some of the live trials that are playing out where people can go watch the whole trial.
00:11:02
Speaker
It's how much your phone now captures and how much the things that you sort of click through terms of service of not thinking about them how much they track your day-to-day lives from the perspective of data and the telematics and the data that we have, like in simple things like Fitbits and Google maps and smartwatches and the phone itself, like the court struggles to catch up with them. And like, I see things like I'm i'm on a case right now. that's ah It's a several year year old homicide case, but I have like these phone dumps that I go through.
00:11:39
Speaker
And like, I am constantly discovering new things are available in these phone docs. Like for a while it was, Oh, look, you can reconstruct these deleted things. That was very interesting.
00:11:51
Speaker
But now it's things your phone does that you don't realize. And the most recent thing I've discovered, cause I had discovered notification message history.
00:12:02
Speaker
do you know what I mean when I say that? Yeah. The notifications you've gotten that you've swiped across and got rid of. Right. So there's a deleted file for that, which is interesting because even if you delete an application and then delete the notification, i won't see the app data, but I will see the notification history. That's interesting. Yeah. That's a new one.
00:12:23
Speaker
But the other thing is there's like opt out files now that I don't think people realize, meaning say I don't want notifications from some particular app for some particular reason and I opt out of it.
00:12:37
Speaker
certain apps just never send them, but other apps send them to you and you don't see them. So they're in the deleted file. Right. So like, it looks like, like, it's almost like as soon as they send them, they treat it like it's blocked and they like, it just disappears, but it's still there. It still exists. really Interesting. Interesting.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I i saw that like this was becoming more mainstream. I think the first time I saw the like the mainstream version of like the minute-by-minute that your phone does and the second-by-second that your phone does, I think for big live trials that people would be watching, was probably the Murdoch trial.
00:13:13
Speaker
That was the one where I looked at it, and I was like, wow, they're actually going through all of this. Because like I wonder sometimes when I get Discovery, like if you have 100 hours worth of stuff, Obviously, you have the time from the incident to the time that like trial happens to go through it all. But you never really know. Because attorneys are managing what they want to do. like You kind of want to either come up with something completely brand new or go along with what they're doing.
00:13:42
Speaker
um in order to like kind of backstop the defense if it's going to go to trial. and So many things don't go to trial. like that's i Like, people don't even understand. Like, trials are like a minuscule portion of what's happening in the criminal justice system. I would say it's less than 3% of cases go to trial.
00:13:59
Speaker
um So when that's all happening, i you I would say part of my job is behind an eight ball where like you have to play catch up, but I happen to work for some people that are very good at sensing when we're getting something. So a lot of times I can go to a crime scene. I can see the defendant as soon as they're in jail or right before they go to jail.
00:14:27
Speaker
Like I can do a lot of those things as long as I kind of stay on my game where I have that advantage. And the other thing that I have that's an advantage is I'm investigating the police that are involved crime.
00:14:38
Speaker
cases and I still, I have the defendant
Challenges in DNA and Gun Crime Investigation
00:14:41
Speaker
and I have whatever statement they're making to us, which believe it or not, even if you work for them, they don't always tell you the truth. So you have to kind of like balance all of that out.
00:14:51
Speaker
But i will say the one place that like you can't get away from all of those things is CODIS.
00:15:02
Speaker
Like I've had so many odd CODIS hits and And that so that ties back into your DNA hypothesis and. What is weird about all of that for me is that currently in the U.S., we don't actually have the resources to use DNA like the way we should be using it.
00:15:23
Speaker
And I use it to my advantage. I have like, well, I'm sure, but I have no doubt that that's the case, right? Because the other part of all of that is, you know, we don't have the resources to use codes to our advantage. And we don't necessarily have the jury pool to completely understand all the data that could publish.
00:15:41
Speaker
potentially be provided to them during a trial. Right. And so those are some downfalls. And then, you know, there's going to be ah other things. i've I've waited sort of for the shoe to drop on the DNA. It seems like ah when there is DNA, the idea is it's like transfer, right? Yeah.
00:16:02
Speaker
And it's not necessarily working because you're not going to have transfer DNA under your fingernails now, are you? Yeah, we like you and I have that kind of, we've had this ongoing where is the DNA important sort of pattern that we follow.
00:16:21
Speaker
But like it is, we're getting more and more DNA, but like it is so interesting to me the cases that it's applied in versus like where it never comes up. Like I have homicide cases right now DNA is not mentioned. It's usually because there's shootings.
00:16:40
Speaker
Well, right. And that would be less of an opportunity for there to be DNA. Right. Right. And that there still is DNA and in certain shooting cases where they're trying to link somebody to the gun or they're linking somebody back to the scene. Like it does happen, but like, well, and most of the time, I mean, putting aside like son of Sam and some of the other like historically infamous, uh,
00:17:06
Speaker
shooter killers, right? Yeah. um Most of the time, guns have a traditional motive, right? And they have somebody to point to. you're saying that crimes where people are using guns, there's something going on there that you're going to find ah path to them that doesn't necessarily involve the genetic material.
00:17:28
Speaker
Right. And a lot of times it's like, you know, it's going to be love, money, or revenge. Right. So it's going to be a known quantity. You know, a lot of times in domestic cases that are scorned, the the perpetrators scorned by the victim, they they'll use a gun, right? Right. Because they they're just trying to kill them. They're not trying to torture them. It's mad. They've snapped.
00:17:51
Speaker
ah And, you know, drug deals gone awry involving, you know, money or in gang violence where it's revenge. A lot of those are are gun cases, right? Yeah.
00:18:05
Speaker
We don't see a whole lot of... Now, it happens, but it's just not the normal path, I would say. When you're talking about the killers that I take in Endreson, it's like the strangling, the stabbing, the upclose.
00:18:22
Speaker
ah There's a better opportunity for DNA to be left. When previously... those types of killings went unsolved because there was no way to link the person. yeah That's the difference I'm seeing. um But I agree that usually with a gun case, and so see, that makes it like,
00:18:46
Speaker
the new serial killers will have to be like gun killers, right? I think they, I think they will kind of but thinking to myself, but I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm not saying that. I just, that's what just crossed my mind. That doesn't satisfy their, their need to kill there. Right.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, I don't know how that part's going to work, but like, it may be that there's like an evolutionary adaptation. i hate to say it that way, but like the killers will have to adapt to what's available. Yeah.
00:19:15
Speaker
Sure, and we'll see, I guess. But I didn't really mean to get off on a tangent. I just happened to think about we we we've had moments over the course of the show because we really were just trying to cover
Investigations and Funding Challenges
00:19:29
Speaker
Israel Keyes. He was fascinating to us.
00:19:31
Speaker
And you know as time has gone by, like he's just a big pain in the butt, right? Well, it's funny that you bring him up today because like it's sort of been coming up more and more recently with me.
00:19:42
Speaker
like I have gotten... pretty good connections with a couple of old case investigators in places that are relevant with keys. But the truth is the resources unavailable.
00:19:56
Speaker
The jurisdictions don't cooperate with each other, even from the perspective of like federal versus state versus local. And ah hate to say this, but i I do want to put it out there because I noticed that like there's some more, I noticed that there's some more um content creators covering keys right now, um video form and whatnot, and I'm going to go ahead and tell you, no one is investigating Israel Keys.
00:20:23
Speaker
No question. Yeah, they're not. It shocked me. like I put together a complete case package on one. I actually got the original investigator and I got the cold case investigator that were assigned to this case. you know We were all prepped and ready to do four DNA swabs off of like things that probably, or four DNA tests, i don't know how many swabs it would have been, off things that like might have connected him because it was early and it was like one of those things where I felt like he probably, if he was going to make mistakes, this would have been the time period and this would have been the location that he made the mistakes.
00:21:04
Speaker
And we had everything together the, The original investigator was retiring and they were very excited about it. The cold case investigator definitely could see the path that like we were going down.
00:21:19
Speaker
And then at the very last minute, the people who had to approve the money to do the testing were like, why would we do that? And, and, and we were, we were like all sort of sitting there and like, this was this thing that was taking place in phone calls and email. And like, I had put together like conversations, keys had had and pulled out snippets of recordings and, and I had put it all together and I knew the moment that happened that there was no coming back from it because i I made my best pitch. And I basically said, we want to know who these 11 people are.
00:21:53
Speaker
and, the essentially they were like, if we take this to our boss, they're not going to let us do it because it's this much money and like there's no one to prosecute and there's nothing to close.
00:22:06
Speaker
If you can find some federal funds, we'll let that happen. And we looked at where the federal funds would have to come from and we contacted the correct people and they said, why would we do that? And I realized that no one was going to be doing that.
00:22:21
Speaker
Right. And so essentially you and I are like, The only people. So I eliminate keys in every single case that I look at. In some way, shape, or form. I either eliminate him or I don't. And if I don't, he's on a short list somewhere, right? Yeah.
00:22:37
Speaker
But are are the victim is on a short list somewhere. But it doesn't matter. i realized that a long time ago. It doesn't matter, um unfortunately. But ah I was driven to take that dude down.
00:22:53
Speaker
But he's gone. Right. But to in taking him down, you free the victims. A little bit. Yeah, I agree with that. And so it is horrifying to think that we live in a world where anybody could operate the way that he did.
00:23:13
Speaker
Right. i It's horrifying. There's not many out there. yeah I feel very confident in saying that. So after we covered that, we did the show, um you know, if we did it again, it'd probably be a completely different show.
00:23:29
Speaker
oh yeah. Based on the information I've learned since then. Which it's been a long time since, you know, we stick because we started researching Keys like the minute it was, it hit the wire, right? Yeah. The minute that Keys was dead and we knew who Keys was, our interest just grew.
00:23:47
Speaker
And so we looked into that for like a really long time and then we were like, oh, we should do a podcast. And then unfortunately, the pandemic hit right after we started the podcast. So our podcast got swallowed up in every everybody else's podcast, Right. Right. um And, you know, it just is what it is.
Podcast Evolution and Case Tracking
00:24:07
Speaker
But we were like, okay, so now we're done with Keith. And should we go on? Should we keep going? You know, because our the name of our um podcast is True Crime XS, which it's XS, like a letter X and a letter S, but it means XS, like the E-X-C-E-S-S, right?
00:24:29
Speaker
And we were like, well, you know, we should just keep going. And then we went from there. And we have, I, maybe once or twice we've had a little bit of a lull, but for the most part, we don't have any trouble finding cases. And while I don't necessarily look for cases to find questions about, I can typically find a question about any case.
00:24:56
Speaker
Along the way, I've been tracking two bizarre double murders, two quadruple murders, And then i have, i started out with nine serial killers that I was very interested in. Unfortunately, three of them have now been identified. And unless something different happens, these are all unknown serial killers, by the way, for people wondering what I'm saying there.
00:25:22
Speaker
ah Three of them have been identified. And we've mentioned when they're identified on the show. we have discovered they fall into the same bucket as Israel keys, despite what the, and no pun intended there, but like, despite what the ah FBI might say, they're not that interested in the information. and it seems to be like the most active cases are like that. I get the most,
00:25:49
Speaker
interaction and contact with law enforcement are cases where there's a living fugitive, um which unfortunately, once they find them, usually those cases become a lot less interesting.
00:26:04
Speaker
There's got to be something to it that... And I don't have any more questions after that. Right, exactly. Like, we're not going to be, like, redundant about it. We have the freedom because, like, no we don't have any – like, we are our own bosses with this particular endeavor, right? Yeah, and we've we we've actually gone to – like, I pitched – reality television um or true crime television, and ever how you want to view that, usually it's done under unscripted, which is like a reality department for a major studio.
00:26:34
Speaker
I pitched like a keys thing where I wanted to go, is essentially you and I got like this stack of videos and this stack of photos very early in the process that no one else got, no other content creators got because they realized they should not release them.
00:26:52
Speaker
And that included the ransom photo. We always had the real ransom photo, but it also included like the full recovery of Samantha Koenig. And we also had the walkthrough tour of Keys home by video.
00:27:08
Speaker
um And we had numerous other things that we felt like were important. And I had been looking and hoping I could get another like case where I could get that kind of access.
00:27:19
Speaker
um I've looked at one in Texas. I've looked at two in Florida. They're not keys related, but they're interesting cases where I might be able to get like a, basically a case file, like the full case file, which is so rare.
00:27:34
Speaker
But we keep talking about this stuff that we have questions about. And so I don't i don't know where you're headed with this part of the conversation. So if you have anything else to say there, I would give you the opportunity to say ah Nope.
00:27:46
Speaker
All I wanted to say was that um we're covering kind of random to, well, one we're following up on and one's kind of a random case. And the random case we're covering, it made me realize how true crime content that we are interested in covering will probably never end.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, like so today's episode does have two components to a um The last thing I'll say about what we're doing is like one of the most interesting things that has come out of our...
00:28:19
Speaker
doing this is that we get responses from people that we're covering sometimes and that is driving some of the longer form stuff i'm trying to put together is people saying things to us and we realize they're either related to a case or they're the person in the case that we were talking about we actually got contacted by somebody i made specific comments about Right. That's one of the long form cases is like in the background, I've been encouraging this person to help us put together the story. And it's very difficult to do that because you're trying to balance it from the perspective of like, I want to hear their side. It's not that I'm going to agree or disagree with their side. I want to hear it from the perspective of what was happening in their life and how their observations sort of unfolded.
00:29:09
Speaker
Right, and I can't possibly make some sort of, I mean, flippant comment. I don't know that the comment really was flippant, but I can't just willingly talk about somebody and then deny them the opportunity to respond. That would be like against everything I believe in. Right.
00:29:26
Speaker
And then we also have... ah family members on another case that I had been interested in since it happened, um, reach out to us.
00:29:37
Speaker
We get some really interesting contacts. Yeah. Like some of the requests that we have from people are fascinating. um just some of the commentary, it is fascinating. It has been interesting to do this. Um, at some point in time,
00:29:53
Speaker
I hope that we can cover like a good live trial. And then i that I have this one project I want to go back to that's a case that's kind of
Information Access Challenges
00:30:03
Speaker
notorious now. And you and i looked at it.
00:30:05
Speaker
um We actually have two of those. like We looked at one and we were like, there is no way that is correct. And then we looked at another and we werere like, well, is that defensible or is it not? And it's not the West Memphis Three. People always ask me about that case. I have no interest in that case.
00:30:20
Speaker
um The reason I have no interest in that case is because I feel like multiple things can be true there. and And that's all I'll say about it is that like, maybe they got some stuff wrong. Maybe they got some stuff, right.
00:30:31
Speaker
Meaning the defense and the prosecution. And there is no way to truly know what happened in that case because of everybody's stance on it. So it's not that, but it's out there sort of middle America where these people are killed. And like that case has an interest to me that may come back up.
00:30:49
Speaker
And then you and I have a case where, We keep waiting for the opportune time to put all the information together. There's a key person or two, maybe three, that if we could get them to talk to us, we would be able to paint something that has a live trial behind it in a completely different light, I believe.
00:31:18
Speaker
um But like there's a there's a law enforcement person, and then there's sort of defense and prosecution people, and then there's actually like a key suspect that I've reached out to who is not involved in the theories related to the convictions at all. So you and I like go through this like massive morass trying to put together like what comes out on the show. And sometimes it's more focused than this these longer-form things. This year, it was particularly difficult because I actually...
00:31:47
Speaker
Thought I was going to be doing one longer form earlier in the year, but it took longer to put it together. And then I had this idea for later in the year. and and And then in the summer, I was going to do a very specific thing.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I got shut down. Like, I got shut down by a municipality. i could not get the records that I wanted. i appealed the records requests. I did all of the things that you're supposed to do that are supposed to result in you getting something. And I could not even get redacted information about a case. And I think originally those people were like, he'll just go away if we don't do that.
00:32:22
Speaker
It's not that like we're slow on content or anything. It's that we were doing those things. Plus I work a full-time job and you have the equivalent of three full-time jobs. So like,
00:32:33
Speaker
That one really screwed up our summer because I was convinced, one, that I was going to be able to find a body. Two, that like I would get at least the basic records because of the permissions that I had from the family.
00:32:48
Speaker
And when I got shut down and didn't get any of the records at all, it was a very frustrating experience because like one of the things I now have to explore, which I hate doing, is are there police involved?
00:33:03
Speaker
Right. And so that's like a whole lot of information about something that may or may not come to fruition. But I i will take the opportunity to thank all of our listeners who have enjoyed this roller coaster and are still listening ah you know at this point in this year.
00:33:20
Speaker
um it was a lot different. we I wouldn't say we strapped ourselves to it, but like um our holiday ah segments that we do where we do like a lot of episodes all at once, it is extremely well received, right?
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah. And as time has gone by, we've, um we plan better for that. And so we're actually having to work on that, like, in the midst of everything else we're doing, right? Yeah, and just like for context, like i I mentioned the job stuff and I mentioned all of that. i think I mentioned like earlier in this year, i lost like a dog that I'd had forever and it was very difficult.
00:34:00
Speaker
um That was one of the breaks from earlier in this year. But I'm going to say this and then I'm not going to emotionally respond or anything.
Personal Challenges and Podcast Impact
00:34:06
Speaker
I also had an absolutely tragic and horrific, unexpected death in my family.
00:34:14
Speaker
And when that happened, it took me a minute to do all the things that I do on a daily basis and also just sort of just get it back together, which I always somehow managed to do, but.
00:34:27
Speaker
and it was a very close person. It wasn't a removed type situation. It was not my family. However, I feel that, uh,
00:34:38
Speaker
ah tremendous weight for you and it was you know it was really difficult but you've done well i feel like we've kept the show going um one of the things we learned was that every ah opportunity we have to record something that we have something tangible to record we should do so because you never know when you're going to need it yeah Yeah, and it's been that kind of year, so I know it's been different for people. Can you believe it's August? No, I can't. And, like, I had somebody message me and ask me why I wasn't covering Keys anymore for the summer.
00:35:10
Speaker
I did have one last Keys case. um i could I could maybe do Keys again at some point, but it's going to be a little bit... I only have one. I only, because of the shutdown, like people like shutting down the information that is available. I think I have two cases. One, i thought I was going to get some information on, unfortunately it's federal. They're not going to give me any more. Another one, i almost got the information. And at the very last minute they were like, oh, well now this is an open investigation again. And I was like, no, it's not.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, no, there's never going to be an official looking into Keith. I mean, maybe the victims, but not him. Right, right. i I thought they were going to go a different path with it, but really it was just about some DNA identification that they were doing, thinking they had found the person.
00:35:58
Speaker
That's neither here nor there. I want to talk about a case that wrapped up. Like, it actually has, like, wrapped up within the last 24 hours. Sort of. As far as I'm concerned.
00:36:10
Speaker
Do you remember...
Milwaukee Dismemberment Case
00:36:12
Speaker
this case from early 2024 out in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where this like young, beautiful 19 year old girl disappeared and they found body parts.
00:36:23
Speaker
Yes. I remember. I don't have a lot on this. This case is gruesome. The trial is available online. It's just, uh, the trial actually, I watched it. It wrapped up, I want to say a month or two ago, but.
00:36:37
Speaker
The sentencing just happened, right? Yeah. The sentencing is what's happened in the last 24 hours. And, Actually, I'm going to talk about the case for a second and a question I have of the case, which made me watch the trial.
00:36:49
Speaker
I'm going to play some clips for people and you and I are going to talk about it. Right, and just ah as a preface, I did not watch this trial. Yeah, this is, um i I don't know that you need to watch it. If you're just fascinated with trials, it's a good watch.
00:37:03
Speaker
It's a really good watch. But if you're watching it, hoping to learn something, I think I'm going to address all of that here in just a second. This is the homicide on either April 1st or April 2nd, 2024. This is the murder of Shade Robinson going to talk about today.
00:37:21
Speaker
She's 19-year-old college student. She's born May 10, 2004. She ends up being missing in Milwaukee, milwaukee Wisconsin, and reported missing April 2, 2004. Later that same day, ah severed human leg is found in a nearby park.
00:37:39
Speaker
And through all the preliminary testing they can do they discover it belongs to her. And then other body parts are found various places.
00:37:52
Speaker
Some parts are still missing to this day, but they're linked to her through DNA. April 4th, so 48 hours after she's missing and body parts start being found, they they arrest a suspect who's a 30, I think he's 32 at the time, 33, 30-something-year-old white guy. ah Miss Robinson is 19-year-old African-American girl.
00:38:19
Speaker
And this is a oh ah white kid who, in my opinion, also looks like that devil's thin suspect a little bit. Just throwing that out there. does, doesn't he? tos on't me Yeah. But he's been in custody, so it couldn't be him.
00:38:32
Speaker
um He says it's not him, which is interesting. But he's arrested on April the 4th. He's held in custody. His name is Maxwell Anderson. He's formally charged April 12th with first-degree intentional homicide, mutilating a corpse and arson.
00:38:45
Speaker
He burned her car. um Before her death, these two had been seen going on a date at a seafood restaurant where Maxwell Anderson used to work. The kid's got, I say kid, he's a man.
00:38:58
Speaker
He's an adult person. ah he has a lengthy criminal record. He's got domestic assault charges, abuse charges. He's got drunk driving charges, to disorderly conduct. Nothing like this, though. A couple of interesting things about this is, so a ah jury on June 6, 2025, they find him guilty.
00:39:16
Speaker
Within the last 48 hours or so, he has been sentenced to life without parole for the murder. One of the things that happened here that bizarre is there's not a known motive, but this guy is this guy reportedly has a sex dungeon in his basement with blood on the walls.
00:39:37
Speaker
The blood is tested, and it's determined that it doesn't belong to this particular victim.
00:39:44
Speaker
As of right now, the source of this blood is unknown. And some of the trial covers some of the blood, where they talk a little bit about whether or not it could belong to Maxwell Anderson and and what he could and could not be ruled out on.
00:39:56
Speaker
That's the one reason to watch the trial. There's a lot of cell phone information in the trial, including deleted photos and deleted notifications. They talk about that a little bit in the trial.
00:40:07
Speaker
That's one of the reasons to kind of check it out. But that's the reason he comes up today is even though he's been sentenced now to life in prison without the possibility of parole, I am curious, whose blood is that?
00:40:19
Speaker
And it is not all animal blood. I've seen that rumor online. That's not true based on what these experts are saying. They're just pointing out that like there's some unaccounted for blood in this thing they're calling a sex dungeon.
00:40:32
Speaker
And we haven't seen one of those in a really long time in a true crime story. Yeah. Well, sure. And I would say, and again, ah could be wrong, but my immediate thought is ah it may be somebody, you know, he attacked.
00:40:49
Speaker
It may be explainable blood. He got caught very quickly for this murder. And in the event there was another murder, i think he would have been caught very quickly. And that's how I view it.
00:41:06
Speaker
um I could get information that changed that view. But I'm just saying, i don't know that he's like some sort of serial sex dungeon killer or whatever. Nah, like from the, the you're your gut instinct there is right in the trial.
00:41:21
Speaker
Like it is so sloppy and crazy. Like it's very chaotic what he did. um To the point, that I will say, I don't know that this was a first degree homicide.
00:41:33
Speaker
um I had some weird thoughts on that, but i
00:41:41
Speaker
I could actually agree with you. From what I know, I didn't watch the trial, but from what I know, I could say that it was a situation that got a little out of hand. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I'm thinking that this could have been second degree death by distribution, something that maybe we don't understand because of the way he tried to cover it up.
00:42:04
Speaker
But it could also be first degree. You mean like she overdosed? She could have overdosed. He could have... Overdosed her. Right. Like, that's that's a weird line. he um he could have broken a bone, like a neck bone or something, and accidentally killed her. There's all kinds of things that you maybe wonder.
00:42:27
Speaker
Sure. I mean, and, you know, obviously, he was convicted by a jury, right? Yeah. And um you're going to play... You want to play that Well, he didn't testify, right? I just want him.
00:42:41
Speaker
He's about to be sentenced. So it's his statement before the judge, right before he's sentenced. It's not very long. He's not really involved in this trial from the perspective of anything except just sitting there. Right, because he has maintained complete innocence.
00:42:58
Speaker
Right, and that's what he's going to say now. so we're going to roll that. Thank you. Mr. Anderson, what would you like to say?
00:43:12
Speaker
I would like to start by saying that from the bottom of my heart, my deepest and most sincere condolences go out to Sade's family, as well as everyone else affected by this tragedy.
00:43:27
Speaker
That being said, your Honor, I took this to trial without ever once trying to make a plea deal of any kind because I did not commit these crimes. And so I plan to appeal my convictions while I hope and pray that further investigations not only prove my innocence, but find and deliver true justice.
00:43:51
Speaker
Anything else you wish to say? No, ma'am.
00:43:59
Speaker
But I'm going to let this roll a little longer and I'm going to let this judge talk. And here she goes.
00:44:12
Speaker
So relative to sentencing, I have a job. And what my job is to do is to hold you accountable.
Judicial Perspective on Sentencing
00:44:20
Speaker
That's to punish you. It's to protect society.
00:44:23
Speaker
It's to find a way that you never come back here again to rehabilitate you. And it's to deter others from engaging in like behavior.
00:44:33
Speaker
At the point of sentencing, i have to look at different factors. I have to look at your past record. And I'll agree with the defense that the prior record on its face is not ah as egregious as many cases I see in my courtroom. Quite often you see a background filled with felonies and violence.
00:44:53
Speaker
But what I said was on its face. When you look at the record as it's worked through in the pre-sentence investigation, I'll agree with the state that there are some red flags that jump out at you that um that show a level of violence that maybe it may have been a precursor.
00:45:16
Speaker
You know, I read through the defendant's version of what happened. Um, And it starts off by indicating that he was skeptical to meet with the pre-sentence investigator because he did not receive a fair trial.
00:45:30
Speaker
And there's no reason to believe that this writer's report would be fair or impartial. You know, speaking about the trial, you know there's a constitutional right to a trial. Every person charged with crime has a constitutional right to a trial.
00:45:43
Speaker
And we do not in any way penalize anyone for going to trial. It's also a constitutional right to be represented by counsel. And ah Attorney Cotton did his job, which is just his job to represent Mr. Anderson.
00:46:01
Speaker
That's ah under our Constitution, the rights that exist.
00:46:06
Speaker
Now, you get credit for taking responsibility. You get credit for resolving a case early. You get credit for stepping forward and saying, what I did was wrong.
00:46:21
Speaker
Because usually this first step in rehabilitation is taking of responsibility. And we didn't have that here. That's why it's important to read what his version is. So you heard him say today that he didn't commit this crime.
00:46:35
Speaker
What he said about the offense was that they met for food and drinks and they proceeded to his apartment. And that's pretty much all there is to say, he said. He offered no other information as to what transpired that night.
00:46:49
Speaker
He later said that he regretted he did not walk Miss Robinson to her vehicle when she left his apartment, and he believed it was at that point she was abducted by an unknown assailant, quote, either from the alley or from my backyard, unquote.
00:47:05
Speaker
When asked how he accounted for his presence in the area, where Ms. Robinson's vehicle was set on fire, Mr. Anderson said that he was set up. He stated he was in the area to buy marijuana, and quote and all it would have taken was for someone to know where I lived and where I'd be in the morning.
00:47:24
Speaker
unquote He would not tell the writer when or how he made the arrangements to purchase the marijuana, and then instead stated, quote I plead the fifth.
00:47:35
Speaker
He then went on to point to things that he claimed were egregious errors at the trial. He claimed that there was a video that showed the photos on the phone and that the state only played stills of the video.
00:47:52
Speaker
That wasn't the evidence at trial. Am I correct? Yes. He claims that the video the still photo that showed his hand grasping Ms. Robinson's breast was part of a video, and it was only a still that was shown.
00:48:10
Speaker
Incorrect, correct? You're correct. OK.
00:48:16
Speaker
He indicated that at trial, it was flaunted, the difference in age. And when I read that, I was somewhat shocked, because i didn't really find that that was pointed out at all during trial.
00:48:28
Speaker
I mean, it was mentioned how old she was. But other than that, I didn't think that that was in any way an issue. and It barely even made it into my notes. So I thought it, my point is, I thought it was interesting how his view of reality seems different from what I find truly transpired.
00:48:50
Speaker
And I found it at numerous points during the pre-sentence investigation. You know, looking through this pre-sentence investigation, his viewpoints were very inconsistent with the reality.
00:49:01
Speaker
You know, I think the first issue relative to the um mother's fiancee, that was credibility. You know, it sounds like he lied to law enforcement. You know, he's asked, have you ever been involved in mental health treatment? Have you ever been in a mental health facility? Have you ever received treatment?
00:49:21
Speaker
He responds in the negative, but then we have the mother indicating that he was in an output outpatient at Rogers. he indicates that he um never made a suicidal attempt or had an ideology of said.
00:49:35
Speaker
But then we read about in the Navy how he was dismissed from the Navy due to um a medical release which appears to be related to the suicidal attempt in trying to hang himself.
00:49:47
Speaker
You have him saying about school, I did okay. But then you look at the history of how he did in school and his grades were pretty abysmal. You... um And just odd things, like he talks about how he purchased the home himself for $160,000, but the mother says, no I told the dad to buy him the home.
00:50:11
Speaker
It just seems like he has a different view of reality than the rest of the world does. So when I look at the criminal history, which I'm bound to do,
00:50:23
Speaker
It reflects low-level misdemeanors, but the facts underlying those low-level misdemeanors are replete with but points that raise your concern.
00:50:34
Speaker
I next have to look at whether he has a history of undesirable behavior, and I think I've charted through what basically I found in the pre-sentence investigation. As to his personality, character, and social traits,
00:50:49
Speaker
It appears that he has had employment. That's a positive. It looks like he jumps between bartending jobs at numerous facilities.
00:51:00
Speaker
But who is a person who would do this crime? You know, what's the character underlying that? How can someone get to a point of inflicting such damage on a person, not only killing the person, but then dismembering?
00:51:19
Speaker
And then after that, discarding the body throughout the community. It's unconscionable, is where it comes down to.
00:51:29
Speaker
I did read the letters that were supplied on behalf of Mr. Anderson, and I do agree. They paint a picture of a man who helped his family when in need, who cared for animals, who went out of his way to love and support his family.
00:51:49
Speaker
but they love him, and that's clear. And that weighs on his behalf. you know The fact that there are people out there that care and love love him, that says something good.
00:52:01
Speaker
you know Quite often we do trials or we go to sentencing, and there's no one here on the behalf of a defendant, which is really tragic and sad. So it says something good that a family does still care about him.
00:52:14
Speaker
I have reviewed the pre-sentence, and... I've taken into consideration what's stated therein.
00:52:27
Speaker
i have to look at whether you're remorseful, and I don't think you're remorseful in any way. I don't think that you um have gotten to the point of taking any form of responsibility for what transpired.
00:52:42
Speaker
You know, the investigation that was conducted in this case It was ah dedication by numerous law enforcement officers to work tirelessly tirelessly to put together the pieces
00:52:58
Speaker
to determine exactly what happened underlying this matter. You know, I do think that jury trials, they do re-victimize the victims. you You know, it's hard to sit and watch a trial. It's hard to see the the details, and it's hard not even to have known Miss Robinson to wipe from my mind what you saw during that trial.
00:53:22
Speaker
And i didn't I didn't love her. I didn't know her. But you did. And that's a hard last thing to have in your minds. So I do understand how trials do re-victimize the victims.
00:53:39
Speaker
So when I look at the character of the defendant, I find the character wanting. When I look to the severity of the offense underlying this matter, i I do sit in homicide court, and I can tell you on a daily basis, you don't understand why things happen.
00:53:59
Speaker
You know, almost every case, the victims come in and they want to know why. Why did it happen? Why did you have to do this? Why did you have to get to that point? And more often than not, there's no answer.
00:54:12
Speaker
We never know. It never makes sense. There's never, um never do you walk away and say, I understand why that transpired. It just doesn't happen. I can also tell you that, you know, I've heard, it I've read through all these letters and they talk about give us justice, right? Give us, give us what's due, but I can't give you justice.
00:54:36
Speaker
There's no way you will walk out of here, no matter what I do today, and high-five each other. There's no way you walk out of here and you say, justice is served. Because justice would be having Ms. Robinson back to you.
00:54:50
Speaker
Justice would be having her with you for the rest of your lives. And you never get that. You know, to hear about her, She was an innocent victim. you know She was a girl that I would hope all young ladies strive to be.
00:55:05
Speaker
you know To hear about working two jobs, to ah reach her goals, to be going on for schooling and further education, but then to hear about how much she was loved in the community by almost everyone that touched her. you know It was interesting to go through the letters because I got the letters that were from who I expected, you know, the mother, the father, the sister, the loved ones.
00:55:29
Speaker
I also got a letter from the real estate agent that worked with Ms. Scarborough. I got a letter from um citizens. And I can't tell you, I really debated whether or not I would um share this, but there was a letter from a citizen that doesn't know Ms. Robinson, never met her.
00:55:53
Speaker
And this is what he said, or she said, I don't know. The person signed it as stargazer. In pertinent part, it says, Sade Robinson was not a torso. She was not evidence.
00:56:05
Speaker
She was a full, living, radiant human being. She had dreams, plans, and a future she was building with pride. She had people who loved her and that still love her more than words can hold.
00:56:18
Speaker
And she had a right to live, to breathe, to laugh, to grow old. That right was stolen in a way so vile, so deliberate, that it tears at the fabric of what we call humanity.
00:56:34
Speaker
You, Maxwell Anderson, didn't just kill her. You carved her, and you discarded her like garbage. And you tried to erase her body from this earth piece by piece. And for what?
00:56:47
Speaker
Not even you had the courage to say.
00:56:52
Speaker
You sat there in court as if you were a man. You didn't snap, you planned. You didn't panic, you dismembered. And still you offer no answers, no remorse, no ounce of dignity that you stripped from her.
00:57:08
Speaker
But here's what you couldn't take. You could not mutilate her soul. You could not silence the scream of justice. You could not prevent an entire community from rising up in Sade's name.
00:57:22
Speaker
We know who she was. We know what she could have become. And we will not let your darkness define her.
00:57:32
Speaker
To the family, there are no words that can hold the weight of your pain. But I need you to know we see you. We mourn with you. We love you. You have the right to tears.
00:57:44
Speaker
You have the right to rage. You have the right to every ounce of justice this system can give. May you feel her arms in the wind. May you hear her laughter in your memories.
00:57:56
Speaker
May you know that she did not die forgotten. She died loved. And we will remember her always. Maxwell Anderson, you are not the center of this story.
00:58:06
Speaker
She is, and she will always be. Sade Robinson lives on in light, in truth, and in love. And you will be remembered only as a man who tried to destroy something beautiful but failed.
00:58:21
Speaker
I thought that was beautiful. And I think that it shows the impact that this had on the community. you know That took time and effort and thought And I think it put together a lot of what the community felt.
00:58:39
Speaker
So going back to what I need to look at, in formulating a proper sentence, I need to look at the character of the defendant. I need to look at the severity of the offense. You know, to take away a child is horrific.
00:58:56
Speaker
You know, you wouldn't wish that on anybody. To have a child um not outlive the parents is a horrible thing. But not only did you extinguish her life, but you hid it.
00:59:09
Speaker
And you hid her body to be found. And I can only imagine every time a news report, every time something clicked that another body part part was found, how it had to just re-victimize this family, how it had to just be like another shot to their soul.
00:59:29
Speaker
I can't imagine how horrific that had to be. And yet... I wonder which was worse, the not knowing in those first days where she was.
00:59:41
Speaker
you know
00:59:47
Speaker
I can't even think of a word, horrific. It's beyond imaginable for a parent to think of not being able to know if your children are ah dead or alive, and then to learn that they were dismembered and disgraced to the extent that this poor girl, her body endured,
01:00:09
Speaker
um
01:00:12
Speaker
is beyond understanding.
01:00:19
Speaker
So the severity of the offense, I'll agree.
01:00:24
Speaker
It's definitely at the top of some of the worst homicides I've seen in this court.
01:00:32
Speaker
Looking at the impact on the community, I read that letter because I thought it stated to a great extent what we're here about.
01:00:41
Speaker
You know, what my job is to do, it is to hold you accountable and to punish you. It is also to protect society. And that's about how do we figure out if at some point you're redeemable?
01:00:56
Speaker
How do we figure out if at some point you will change your mind, mindset, you will get the therapy and education to be at a point where you will be safe to have in the community?
01:01:07
Speaker
Now, part of that goes into the fact that you don't take responsibility. You know I listened to the evidence. I watched what was introduced during the course of the trial. There is no explanation that I've heard that's valid as to why you would be walking away from that burning car.
01:01:25
Speaker
You know, those photos were not of a girl in a video enjoying life. Those photos of you grasping the breast that was ultimately shaved from her body um with her face plastered into that um I don't recall if it was the ottoman at the couch, the way that her body was positioned.
01:01:47
Speaker
There's ah no explanation for that.
01:01:52
Speaker
I don't need to rehash the evidence. I've gone through all my notes from this trial, and I think that attorney Vance Cruzan did a nice job of summarizing in pertinent part the details. But there's no answer that you briefly provided in this pre-sentence that makes even a hint, that even resonates with a hint of truth.
01:02:16
Speaker
So how do we protect society from a man who clearly has had darkness in his past, who engaged in a behavior that is
01:02:27
Speaker
it's the facts that you see written in horror novels.
01:02:34
Speaker
That's what we have to determine. And you know, it isn't easy. I can tell you that when you think about, is there ever something redeemable in in a person? You'd like to say at some point there is.
01:02:46
Speaker
And I can tell you that at the points in life where I've come to the conclusion that there isn't anything redeemable, you know, you do think about, i think it it takes away a little piece of my soul.
01:02:59
Speaker
How come I couldn't find anything good? How come I can't find anything that I can say at some point you'll be a better person.
01:03:10
Speaker
So ultimately at sentencing, considering the seriousness of the offense, your character and the needs of society. This is clearly not a probation case. Probation would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense and isn't even allowable under our law.
01:03:26
Speaker
You are sentenced to a term of life imprisonment, and that is what the penalty is for a jury a jury of your peers, ultimately coming back and convicting you on first degree intentional.
01:03:38
Speaker
In this case, I didn't see a restitution request. We are asking for a restitution hearing, and we've pre-selected a date. Thank you. We'll be setting restitution off to be determined at a later date.
01:03:50
Speaker
Relative to um this matter, I have considered the seriousness of the offense. I have wage your character, and as I've indicated, I find it wanting. I've also reflected on the needs of society, and are you a good risk?
01:04:06
Speaker
And sadly, you're not.
01:04:10
Speaker
As to as to my sentence, um Relative to the nature of the offense, you are not eligible for challenge incarceration. You're clearly not eligible for any substance abuse programming.
01:04:25
Speaker
Restitution will be determined at a later date. You do need to submit a biological specimen to the state crime lab and pay the surcharge thereof. thereof You do have the right to appeal. And if indigent, you have the right to the assistance of the public defender. What you need to understand is that a notice of intent to pursue post-conviction relief must be filed in the trial court within 20 days after sentencing for your rights to be preserved.
01:04:48
Speaker
You have been convicted of a felony. You may never possess a firearm. If you do, you're looking at 10 years of imprisonment, a $25,000 fine, or both. You may not possess body armor any time in the future. If you do, you'll be subject to 15 years of imprisonment, a $50,000 fine, or both. You cannot vote in any election.
01:05:12
Speaker
I'm going to waive all non-mandatory fees, costs, and assessments. I'm ultimately going to want payment for restitution first and foremost. So we're going to determine that on a later date.
01:05:24
Speaker
But due to that, I'm not imposing any fine. um The fees, costs, and assessments will be payable during your term of initial during your term of confinement at a rate to be determined by the DOC.
01:05:42
Speaker
Pre-trail incarceration credit.
01:05:45
Speaker
I'll get that information to you. Okay. So relative to...
01:05:57
Speaker
One moment.
01:06:03
Speaker
Count three. um Arson of building other than arsson of property other than building. That's a class I felony. On that offense, you are looking at a fine of up to $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than three years and six months or both.
01:06:18
Speaker
Relative to that matter, the maximum is 18 months of initial confinement and two years of extended supervision. I am imposing 18 months of initial confinement and two years of extended supervision.
01:06:38
Speaker
One moment.
01:07:07
Speaker
As to count two, which is a charge of mutilating a corpse, that's a class f felony. That means upon conviction, you could be fined not more than $25,000 and imprisoned not more than 12 years and six months or both.
01:07:25
Speaker
Relative to that, the maximum is seven and a half years of initial confinement and five years of extended supervision. I am imposing seven and a half years of initial confinement and five years of supervision.
01:07:36
Speaker
Relative to count one, that is a class A felony, the charge of first-degree intentional homicide. Relative to that, you shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And relative to this matter, weighing all of the factors that I must, looking at the galleon factors, considering your character, the severity of the offense, and the impact on the community, where you stole a truly shining light is what it sounds like.
01:08:04
Speaker
I am ordering that you will not be eligible for extended supervision. Counts two and three are consecutive to count one. The date for the restitution hearing will be?
01:08:18
Speaker
September 4th at 1030. Have you determined? Yes, excluding today's date, 484 days. I will provide you with a written explanation of the determinant sentence for your review. State, what have I failed to address?
01:08:32
Speaker
I think that's everything. Defense, what have I failed to address? Nothing further. Celeste? Nothing, Judge. One moment, and I'll give you a copy.
01:08:44
Speaker
Okay, so do hear all of that Yes. What do you think of what he said, and also we'll get to what she said? Well,
01:08:56
Speaker
it For one thing, okay i feel like there was evidence for him to be convicted of, even if like technically it wasn't first-degree murder, um there's evidence there. Oh, yeah. 100% agree with that based on watching the trial. and based on You can glean that from most of the news reports. There's fairly accurate, if sparse, reporting in this case.
01:09:19
Speaker
Right. and it you know He was the last person seen with her. There was like no question about that. And the judge sort of recounts that like, um he maintained that,
01:09:36
Speaker
you know Yes, he was the last person with her, but like she had to have been abducted like after she left his house, right? Yeah. Like by someone from the backyard, from some random person, right? Yes. And then he just so happened to be buying weed in a place where her something was found of her body, like the body part was found or something. Yeah. or maybe her car. Yeah.
01:10:01
Speaker
I can't remember, but like all of those things are kind of true. He comes in close proximity to where body parts are found and he is buying weed at one point where another thing is going on and he's close to the burning car and he takes a bus away from where the burning car was back to his house and gets off. And there's like surveillance footage of all of this.
01:10:21
Speaker
Right. And so, you know, that's that's evidence, right? I mean, that's evidence that isn't going to be explained away. Now, ah if I didn't have all that evidence, like, when he's talking, he's believable.
01:10:39
Speaker
Now, I think he's lying, but, like, he seems to be... He has said, i you know, i didn't he didn't even want to talk to the people about the sentencing interview because he said, I didn't get a fair trial, right?
01:10:55
Speaker
um He didn't talk about pleas. He didn't participate in the PSI. He didn't really participate in the trial, per se. Right, but I see that as denial. um I see that—I do think somebody that could commit this heinous crime, cut up this body, you know, just snuff out this young girl's life, I do think that—we don't often see them talk about it, but I do think that they can separate themselves or compartmentalize it enough to where when he's talking, he actually believes what he's saying, right? Right. Yeah, and I also, that was one of the reasons I was like, maybe it's drugs.
01:11:36
Speaker
yeah Because i I've seen some bizarre behavior with different substances that, like, I'm not blaming the substance. I'm just saying he maybe he's the type of person that he uses particular drugs. He doesn't remember all of these things that he's doing. I doubt that. But I guess.
01:11:53
Speaker
Right. And um it would be... It would be fascinating to, ah again, i didn't watch the trial, but if I watched the trial, you know, it'd be fascinating to see if there was any sort of holes I could find. But um it has gone through the process. Now, it's always alarming to me, I guess. Now, he's sitting there saying, I didn't get a fair trial. um From everything I saw, that his defense attorney's...
01:12:26
Speaker
or were good defense attorneys. Oh, yeah. Okay. And part of the thing that concerned me, and I don't know that this is a relevant concern, however, the judge says, um she addresses the fact that he has said that he didn't get a fair trial.
01:12:45
Speaker
And she goes on to say that um it's his constitutional right to have a trial. And the fact that, you know, he didn't ah engage in any sort of plea discussions, it didn't matter.
01:13:00
Speaker
But then she says, if you speak up and i guess in a way confess or give details and admit the crime you've committed, that can help you. Yeah, that's not true.
01:13:19
Speaker
ha ha! But also think that that is actually, in a way, like, I guess she was saying, like, you could possibly ask for, like, a lesser sentence if you confess to everything. You could maybe get, you know, i don't know what the difference would be.
01:13:38
Speaker
But my issue with that is you can't, isn't the opposite of that, that it's held against you that you don't? Well,
01:13:51
Speaker
i don't know how directly you want me to answer that question. um So the defense here, they did not put on a defense or present any witnesses. They did all of their case in cross-examination, which happens, and it's a strategic decision that's made in order to secure having the last word with the jury in many jurisdictions.
01:14:11
Speaker
Right. And basically, the argument is the state didn't prove the case. Right. Right. Without us having to defend it at all, they just didn't prove it. And the the cross-examination in this case is fascinating. it's It is, i would say it's well done. i would say all of this, like, comes from the place that he had, in my opinion, extremely effective assistance from his counsel.
01:14:41
Speaker
um Okay, that having been said...
01:14:46
Speaker
There is an element to this that's bordering on what's known as a trial tax. Are you familiar with the concept of a trial tax? Are you saying tax, T-A-X? Yeah.
01:15:00
Speaker
Okay, yes. So the whole point of plea deals is to keep things moving and to not have to spend a ton of time on jury trials and whatever. With some defendants and some judicial officials,
01:15:15
Speaker
there is a it's essentially a penalty for putting on, would say putting all the people involved. yeah the trial Right. Not counting the spectators, but the jury themselves, the courtroom staff, the prosecutors, the defense attorneys, putting them through that is a emotionally tolling and traumatic experience. and some judges operate from the perspective of making their,
01:15:46
Speaker
penalties, the punishments, as harsh as possible once someone is found guilty in those situations. And it's it's viewed as sort of tax for not having made a plea deal.
01:16:00
Speaker
And he states, you guys can hear him, he didn't entertain any plea deals. maintaining his innocence here. He's going to, I can tell you right now that one of the first appeals is going to be based on a couple of technical arguments. And one of the second appeals is going to be some appellate defender is going to pull out the old ineffective assistance of counsel. I don't think those are going to get anywhere in this particular case, but they're going to do that.
01:16:25
Speaker
i am though. i don't, I don't know for certain, but I'm afraid a good argument of what the judge said could possibly it wasn't done in front of the jury right right it's just done it's sentencing so the jury's time is over we're down on to like the the investigation has taken place over the last two months into what's going to happen the judge mentions lots of letters having been written in on his behalf and him being you know look contributing civilized member of society
01:16:58
Speaker
um Right. And, you know, he look he did have a criminal history. It wasn't anything to the extent that we saw, but that doesn't matter, right? um As far as, i mean, people who have never done anything can...
01:17:13
Speaker
can all of a sudden do something right yeah um but i would absolutely be if i was to defense and i'm not i don't want this guy to get away with anything he's done okay um but i would say that the opposite like if the exception proves the rule okay and i hate that statement because never understand it but let's say that like You know, if the rule is that you don't have to incriminate yourself, okay, and and that is a constitutional right. You have the right to plead the Fifth Amendment.
01:17:50
Speaker
You say, i plead the fifth. You don't have to give information. Nothing falls on the defendant or nothing is supposed to fall on the defendant constitutionally. The state has to present all the evidence, right? yeah And the fact that the judge made the comment that she did, that she said, and I'm not quoting here, I'm just trying to remember.
01:18:12
Speaker
um She said that you know, you have the opportunity ah at the beginning of before the trial to give information that, um, helps you. i can't really remember how she said it, but ah my mind immediately went to, you have that opportunity. Sure.
01:18:33
Speaker
But it can't be used against you that you don't. And so if the exception proves the rule and when you, you have the opportunity to,
01:18:46
Speaker
um If you have the opportunity to present information that helps the state, they will somehow go easier on you or something.
01:18:56
Speaker
Aren't you saying that in the event you have information and you don't give it, we're going to go harder on you? And that's what I mean when I'm saying like the exception proves the rule.
01:19:07
Speaker
Because she spoke those words, I would 100% be taking that like straight to the appellate court and saying the judge is like implicitly saying that he his Fifth Amendment right didn't exist or his Fifth Amendment right...
01:19:21
Speaker
um was used to impose this harsher, ah because he chose not to talk, he got a harsher sentence than he might have if he had if he had spoken or if he had information or whatever.
01:19:35
Speaker
And so I think that could be a major appellate issue. Is anybody going to pick up on it? I have no idea. um i was listening to ah sort of ah the judge's remarks before sentencing him.
01:19:49
Speaker
i kind of like the way she sentenced him because ah she said it like in the context of everything she was speaking. I actually had to go back and listen to what he was actually sentenced to because she didn't like separate it.
01:20:02
Speaker
And did, do you know, did the defense ask for probation? there were and Are you talking about her commentary? Well, she said, this isn't a case for probation. i was like, I think that's a given. It was weird she made the comment.
01:20:19
Speaker
but i Yeah, there was lots of stuff said by the defense in the closing arguments that are worth listening to. But ultimately, it was more they didn't have a lot to work with for closing Okay, well, and so she says, like, this isn't a case for probation. I'm sentencing you to life in prison. That's kind of how she said it. it And then she continued on, right? And I kind of like that because it was, you know, was... As usual. it It really was. Now, in the case that we're looking at, what I know about it, I didn't watch the trial.
01:20:52
Speaker
um He was found guilty, and he... he was sentenced to life in prison. That was not a surprise. It shouldn't have been a surprise to anybody. he was he's found guilty of first-degree murder, right? And a couple of other charges, I believe.
01:21:08
Speaker
And the ah court waived all non-mandatory fines in lieu of him paying restitution to the family. Correct.
01:21:20
Speaker
um I felt like that was a good... thing i guess um i don't really know like i know that prisoners can work and you know they make very little money and i guess that can be a certain amount can be garnished for the fines that they owe or whatever a lot of what is happening there is sort of pro forma like yeah it's still i mean to me it's still worth like a little bit right yeah because it is a gesture um
01:21:52
Speaker
it's a ha I mean, I guess it would be a hollow gesture if you thought about it, but it is something. Yeah, it is something. I mean, as far as like what the judge said there about his right to remain silent...
01:22:06
Speaker
um you may have something if somebody picks up on it. I think they could make that argument. I i don't know how you get that. Unless you're making like a 13th juror is spoiled kind of argument, meaning the judge's responsibilities are biased because of their ability or inability to recognize the constitutional rights of the defendant. Like something like that could potentially be made. Right. And I don't know. That's just the...
01:22:35
Speaker
The thought I had was she shouldn't have said that. That's what I was thinking to myself. Like, that's going to bring about a possible appellate issue. um I didn't think her view on that was correct. But in the, you know, plea deals don't come up in trial. Right. Except in this case, they were talking about how there were no talks about them. Right. That's the defendant talking to you.
01:22:59
Speaker
and it says that so Right. You're right. You're right. um And so I guess my point sort of is... There was no reason. i guess maybe because he said that maybe she felt the need to respond. Oh, yeah. hundred That's probably right. Yeah. um but And without him saying that, maybe she wouldn't have.
01:23:21
Speaker
But to me, i was thinking to myself, um there is a case, and i have no idea what the case is, but it stuck with me in case law because, but it was the prosecutor.
01:23:34
Speaker
um It was not the judge. The prosecutor said, very blatantly, and I don't know how old the case is, it's probably really old, um the the prosecutor said the defendant didn't do the crime, they would have gotten up on the stand told you that, right? Something to that effect. and And the appeals court was like, oh no, like that totally goes against ah the defendant's Fifth the Amendment right to not incriminate themselves.
01:24:04
Speaker
And they sent it back, right? I don't know what the ultimate outcome was. But that when I heard the judge talking, I thought to myself, I hope she doesn't, like, I hope that wasn't something that's going to be a problem.
01:24:15
Speaker
um i if If they appeal it, the state could always say, well, the judge was making remarks. The jury did not hear that. And it didn't influence their decision, which is the converse of the prosecutor saying it and closing to the jury, right? Right.
01:24:31
Speaker
And so it may not be a big deal. i would certainly argue it yeah from a defense point of view. um there's ah you know There's a lot to ah be argued by the state in the same ah situation against like any sort of overturning of the verdict because of that those statements, right? So it would be a healthy appeal argument.
01:24:57
Speaker
um It would also, i don't know, ah trial court judges have Broad discretion. Very wide leeway when it comes to what they say, particularly.
01:25:08
Speaker
it depends on the timing of it. Like there are some things that like the trial court's ruling and commentary can matter up until the moment the jury brings back the verdict form. Right. And I think that's going to be like the probably the biggest saving grace. And honestly, the judge probably knows better than i do. Like im the judge probably knew. I'm sure she's like you ah she was.
01:25:29
Speaker
She was not ill-prepared for this. Like, it was obvious that she had prepared her commentary very thoroughly. I thought the judge was kind. Yeah. um And she expressed disappointment in his... Lack of remorse and his behavior.
01:25:48
Speaker
And maybe that is, like... You know, he he took the step... A defendant doesn't have to say anything for said anything. He took the step to say, i didn't do this.
01:26:01
Speaker
i I feel bad for the family. This is a horrible situation, but I didn't do this, right? And I guess in response to that, the judge can say what they want. and so it may not be anything at all, right? I may be completely wrong. I just happened to hear it and I thought, well, that would... My point being, if he's guilty and that that somehow got him a new trial, that would suck, right?
01:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, because it's going to mean that you have to double down on putting people through that traumatic experience of listening to this trial. And this trial is particularly heinous. Right. Because of the discovery of the remains. Like, regardless of, like, his guilt or not guilt, the facts that are being presented are not for the faint of heart.
01:26:39
Speaker
And I will say, if he were to be not, like, factually innocent of this, he is the probably the most unlucky person have ever briefly known about.
01:26:51
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, I don't have a lot of commentary on the trial courts on her comments there. I thought, you know, it it was interesting. It was interesting enough to hear it. um I do wonder, like the my one question...
01:27:04
Speaker
ah after watching all of this and putting all this together, my one question is whose blood is in the dungeon? Like, like can't help but wonder that. wonder if it's not his. Did they come to a conclusion there? Some of it, he couldn't be excluded. Like some of the different blood they found in the house, he could not be excluded and they ruled her out.
01:27:24
Speaker
But there is some blood that they talked about. Is a lot? You can't like, you can't tell the way that they collected it and the way that it's been potentially cleaned around and other stuff, which I don't think there was a lot of cleaning done in this case, but you can't tell exactly what it would have come from.
01:27:49
Speaker
And so some of it's smaller samplings and some of it are larger samplings and all of it made me go, well, whose is it?
Unresolved Crime Claims Discussion
01:27:59
Speaker
Sure. No, yeah, that's ah definitely, um,
01:28:02
Speaker
I mean, I came up with some interesting ways that like it could just be whoever was building this contraption and they were putting up this piece and they hit their thumb and they bled and whatever. Like I came up with some of those ideas, but just the idea that it was one of those sensational things they threw out there kind of landed like a lead balloon and it's never really been resolved in all of this was like, well, that sucks.
01:28:27
Speaker
um Yeah, you you're not wrong there. um I think that... ah How much do you think that having all that stuff situationally in his house and being the last person that saw her... I mean, that's some points against you two again, Wethery.
01:28:46
Speaker
Yeah, oh yeah. like This was not um going to go great for him. I'm shocked that disposed of the body the way did. that I think that that's part of... um The, like, let's say, for example, something did happen ah that wasn't first degree murder. Like, it just gets exponentially worse.
01:29:10
Speaker
Every movie makes after. Every single movie makes. And um i you know, in fact, a lot of cases ah that are like second degree murders and panicking and like.
01:29:23
Speaker
Just, like, what do I do? And, like, you're looking at a whole... And she she was, ah ah I think, a pretty petite girl, right? Yeah. I couldn't really tell, like, how big he was. um She looks very small to me. um And i can I don't know. Is he just, like, average or is he tall? Or do you have any idea? um Maxwell Anderson?
01:29:45
Speaker
Yeah. I couldn't really tell. He's not a small person. According to... What I was able to pull, and I don't know how accurate it is.
01:29:58
Speaker
He...
01:30:02
Speaker
It looks like he's around six foot one eighty Let's see. Yeah, that seems about right. And so, you know, for an average-sized female, that's still a big guy. And for a small female, that's a really big guy, right? Yeah. um And, you know, so you look at that dynamic.
01:30:20
Speaker
And it It is possible, you know, if they were engaging in consensual sexual activity, that he could have somehow, especially with all the things around it, like his sex dungeon, you know, something got too rough or whatever. But that doesn't explain all the other things that happened, like, as far as...
01:30:45
Speaker
if you are doing something like that, it's going to be a pain in your ass, but you call 9-1-1, right? Yeah. you I mean, that's, unfortunately, you're probably still going to be in trouble, but you call 9-1-1, you definitely don't cut the body up. And that is just awful.
01:30:59
Speaker
And I really had a lot of, um, i I didn't hear them speak in the clips that we had, but like in some of the articles, her family's quoted and their victim impact statements. And like,
01:31:11
Speaker
I really felt bad for them. yeah um and then I wanted to ask you, the judge made sort of, I guess in her, I guess it was her closing remarks. She said something like, let's move forward. Uh, like the victim lived right. Like in a ah good positive way, which is, i mean, it's a nice thing to say, I guess, but was there some sort of threats or something made?
01:31:38
Speaker
Do you know? ah Against her or the family? or the family. may Oh, they've been very outspoken about him. Well, right. And that's what I mean. In a horrible way. like they with Kind of rightfully so. I mean, like they're very upset. Yeah, i um i I've seen several cases where I've had to kind of rethink...
01:32:01
Speaker
um Because I'm fortunate enough to have never had to face, you know, have to give a victim impact statement for any sort of reason. And I i found, i would feel like it's not really my place to say, like, what people should or shouldn't say. But I kind of have gauge where I'd be like, yeah, that was kind of over the line, right?
01:32:23
Speaker
And recently I've seen, like, several different instances of victim impact statements or read about quotes about them where... I say like, oh, that was too far.
01:32:38
Speaker
But then at the same time, I'm like, yeah, who am I to say that? So I don't really know. Like, I don't know. i would never tell a victim they'd gone too far in their victim impact statement.
01:32:50
Speaker
um I think I agree with you. I mean, I think that I could see threats being a problem. But for the most part, I don't really, and don't think there's much to, um,
01:33:05
Speaker
There's so many different. Holding them accountable for words they say in an emotional moment like that. Well, sure. And, you know, a lot of it is, you know, who's giving the statement and then are like, what would the victim think about that?
01:33:18
Speaker
Because i can honestly say in the event I were the victim, I wouldn't want to give anybody. i wouldn't want anybody I love to give the person the time of day.
01:33:31
Speaker
right right that's how but But that's me, right? i would say like you need to go on and live your life just like... i wouldn't say like nothing happened to me, but... like that's a lot of times it just furthers the tragedy, right? Which is, I mean, it's an unavoidable, right? Somebody does something crappy to somebody you love and they, it's a violent crime.
01:33:57
Speaker
It destroys people, which is part of the point of perpetrators that are doing it for those types of reasons. Right. Right. They, they're just awful. They're evil and awful people and they want to destroy things.
01:34:12
Speaker
And, It would be really difficult um for family. And I don't even know, it may even seem callous, I guess, to say like, oh, I'm i'm not even gonna give that person the time of day.
01:34:25
Speaker
But life is short. And in the end, like the best thing I feel like a lot of times we can do is completely forget about these atrocious perpetrators, right?
01:34:36
Speaker
Like completely forget about them. And, you know, the only thing that's remembered is the victim.
01:34:44
Speaker
Well, I think that's probably right. um I don't know what you do with a guy like him.
01:34:57
Speaker
He's interesting because he was... I feel like... I mean, is there something to his pro proclamation of innocence? um i I don't think so. I feel like he did sound genuine and believable, but there's too much evidence.
01:35:13
Speaker
And... It's a whole different beast, right? Right. As opposed to him just sitting there not saying anything. Yeah, I don't and don't think he's a serial killer.
01:35:25
Speaker
Which is one of the things that's been bouncing around on the internet. No, I, this was, like, he got caught really quick. Yeah. if If he is, he's terrible. I mean, I was curious about the basement blood, but, like, I don't think it's going to be serial killer territory. You typically don't get immediately worse, right? No. Well, it could happen, but, like, don't...
01:35:47
Speaker
It could. And I, you know, i feel like sometimes I'm on a soapbox going, yeah, he would have gotten caught the first time, right? Yeah, that's kind of how I end up feeling. But this guy is now sentenced to life in prison without parole.
01:35:59
Speaker
we don't have to worry about that forward motion. But I might, like, go back and crack a few missing persons cases and see, like, what's been going on in Milwaukee, you know, just from the perspective of maybe. and don't think it's going to be case.
01:36:12
Speaker
um I feel like the blood coming up is interesting because it definitely doesn't make him less guilty of this crime, right? Right. I mean, it it makes him possibly guilty of other crimes, and that's why it's interesting it was brought up, right?
01:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the whole, like once he disposes of the body that way, if it's him mutilating the corpse to dispose of the body, then all bets are off. And...
01:36:39
Speaker
Absolutely. And that was the most day. That kind person would sound innocent telling me they were innocent, whether they were guilty or not. Possibly. You mean if like the disposal was like the worst part of it?
01:36:52
Speaker
Yeah. like if If it was a death by distribution manslaughter kind of thing... We're not going to know because that guy is not going to be trustworthy. And if it did happen that there was some kind of accident or there there's some kind of drug thing, which there's no evidence of that. I'm just saying if that happened, then matt I would think that's the moment you speak up and say, wait, wait, I didn't murder her on purpose.
01:37:22
Speaker
And you talk about it. Well, right, exactly. that And that, would you know, in the event you didn't call 911 immediately to get help, like that would certainly be the time. um I don't know that maintaining like this complete innocence is going to work long term.
01:37:40
Speaker
And then I've said all of this and like I would absolutely hate for some sort of factually innocent evidence to come up to prove like he really didn't do anything.
01:37:52
Speaker
um I don't think that's going to be the case. That's why the evidence matters, right? I think so. I mean, i like and I've been running the scenarios
Media and Courtroom Dynamics
01:38:02
Speaker
through my head. Like, it's just statistically unlikely.
01:38:08
Speaker
um He could have given information. I think the judge mentions this. He could have said, like, I was buying drugs from, or I was buying pot from this guy, right? Right. He could have, like, but he didn't back up any of those statements. It was just sort of like willy-nilly, like, that's why I was here. And it wasn't enough to justify him being there and not having taken part in it, right? Yeah.
01:38:32
Speaker
Well, look, I'll just leave this out there. If you guys are looking for a live trial... this I think Law and Crime had it and Court TV had it. How long is it? ah If you count jury selection, closing, blah, blah, all the things, less than eight days, including today. mean – I may go back and watch it. um The good thing about watching it, not live, but the live version is you can fast forward through all the breaks and stuff. Right, right. you can That makes it a lot faster. Yeah. I think there's like seven days of full-blown testimony.
01:39:10
Speaker
so I think I might actually listen. um And the only reason I say that is because i I believe he went through the process, and the process found him guilty. He's going to jail for the rest of his life. Well, if you come up with something major, I will come back and we'll make a true crime news on another episode. I don't mind doing that.
01:39:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine. um I did find his words... to be, like, I don't feel like he was necessarily lying. And again, like you said, if it's some sort of, you know, anomaly type death that he could, you know, not necessarily genuinely, but like he believes, well, that wasn't entirely my fault, right?
01:39:53
Speaker
I think yeah in order to do that, I think you had to present a defense and like they allude to some stuff along the way in Cross, but no, they don't get it. And so, you know, i guess I'm typically really good at telling when people are lying and i could tell he was lying, but he sounded so genuine, if that makes sense.
01:40:15
Speaker
Right. Like he didn't sound like the typical liar sounds. And it was almost like I said, like he believed what he was saying. And that's like a whole different thing to me. And,
01:40:27
Speaker
you You know, I'm not always right. I mean, actually, i am most of the time right. But i I'm not saying that I couldn't possibly be wrong. It just, he sounded so genuine in what he said. and at that point, you and I both know, at sentencing, the defendant's words are not going to do anything for them.
01:40:47
Speaker
Yeah, he has no reason to lie there. i don't know. I mean, it could be self-serving in some way, but, like, I don't. I would think that it would be. A misunderstanding on his part.
01:40:58
Speaker
I think he was just trying to say, like, this isn't fair, you know. and to me, that's like a petulant, like, child having a little fit, right? um If I were in this situation, well I would have done a lot of things differently. But the last words, i if I was convicted and I was innocent, I just wouldn't say anything at that point. It's just not the right time.
01:41:22
Speaker
yeah And so it to have it come out that way, it does seem petulant and it does seem like a little like just a, I know I was convicted, but I still didn't do it.
01:41:32
Speaker
Right. That kind of thing. I don't know. It could change being in that position, but again, there was a lot of steps in between there that he could have said different things. Right. Yeah. Um,
01:41:46
Speaker
Yeah, i I don't have anything more on this one. Like this one, if you watch the trial and you have a differing opinion, i am glad to go back through and and rewatch portions of it and cover it from that perspective.
01:41:57
Speaker
It's an interesting case to watch a trial live. i just don't typically do that like in our feed, but like if that's something you want to talk about or whatever, I'm always glad to do like ah like a Patreon thing. If people want to come on I'll set up like a free podcast.
01:42:12
Speaker
And if people want to come on and listen to his comment on that, I don't think i'm going to put it on the main feed. it would have to be something worthwhile. Yeah. um If you check it out decide I need to do something like that, let me know and I'll come back around to it.
01:42:24
Speaker
um I have one more trial thing, though, that I wanted to talk about today. And I bring this up because i have been following this from the beginning. We've talked about it multiple times here.
01:42:35
Speaker
we have heavy opinions on this case. We talked about it um The moment it happened. Yeah, pretty much before. um I think one person was charged, but they were weighing the other charges, right? I think, no. When we first talked about this, it was an open case.
01:42:52
Speaker
And then we talked about the, the we talked about but at least three times we've talked about this since it happened back in February, 2023. And the reason it's coming up now is because there's supposed to be a trial for this in October.
01:43:08
Speaker
I don't know if there's going to be a plea on this. I kind of, like, usually I can kind of tell. I can sit in the court and go, okay. um This is not one of those cases because some questions have come up and they have some interesting answers.
01:43:24
Speaker
ah Do you have a sense of whether this is going to plea out? hes he's an I don't think he's going to take a plea. Okay. um I think that he is, ah he is, I think he's going to be giving another no matter what i didn't do it statement his son would think yeah so um sources for this uh fox 5 had it out of dc fairfax times had they have extensive coverage of this case um i think w usa 9 is where i pulled like a some of the video
01:43:59
Speaker
the i'm I'm not playing any clips here, but like I was watching, ah I've watched a lot on this case. It's fascinating to me. It's ah got some interesting elements. And right now I like, I can't remember. Yeah, actually that's not true. I can remember the last time one of these rulings happened that I saw it like happen.
01:44:19
Speaker
And that was a week County, North Carolina case of a guy named Jason young. I think it was wake. Yeah. It was like County. Um, There was one of these rulings kind of similar to that. And I can't tell if the rest of it is is being accurately presented by the defense. But according to the judge, it might be.
01:44:43
Speaker
And if that's the case... And this goes to trial because it's supposed to go to trial in October. If all of this is accurate, we've got another weird conspiracy thing happening. But it's not that unlike the Karen Reed case, although this is more clearly ah homicide. And one of the alleged participants has sort of pled guilty in a roundabout way.
01:45:08
Speaker
Um, I was shocked by that. But there's there's been some rulings in double homicide that happened back in February, February 24th of 2023.
01:45:20
Speaker
So just like a recap of this.
Double Homicide Case Overview
01:45:25
Speaker
A woman named Christine Banfield, she's 37 years old. She was found dead from multiple stab wounds alongside a man who's 39 years old named Joseph Ryan.
01:45:38
Speaker
um they were found in the Banfield's family home. And there's a husband named Brendan Banfield who worked as agent for the IRS and a gun-toting agent, not um like a tax person, but like a law enforcement, basically.
01:46:01
Speaker
And then he had a 24-year-old nanny that had been working for the family named Juliana Perez Malgahees. And the The idea was they had lured her to her death.
01:46:12
Speaker
um The investigation lasted seven or eight months. ah The way that it had gone down like the day of Joseph Ryan is pronounced dead at the hospital. He's pronounced dead at the scene from the gunshot wounds.
01:46:24
Speaker
Christine Banfield, she dies shortly after being taken to the hospital. The story that was told from Brendan Banfield was he tells dispatchers on a 911 call that Joseph Ryan had broken into their home, stabbed his wife, and that he had shot Joseph Ryan in self-defense.
01:46:40
Speaker
They dig into this, there's not immediate charges. They end up arresting Juliana Perez Malgaiz, October 19th, 2023. They charge with secondary murder and use of a firearm and commission of a felony.
01:46:53
Speaker
A year later, September 16th, 2024, grand jury then indicts Brandon Banfield on four counts of aggravated murder, one count of use of the firearm and the commission of a felony for the deaths of Christine Banfield and Joseph Ryan.
01:47:08
Speaker
Authorities have alleged all along that these killings were some kind of scheme where Juliana and Brendan were having this romantic relationship, they believe, began back in August 2022.
01:47:20
Speaker
There are some photos. There's some evidence that she, like, moved into the bedroom. And on top of that, prosecutors flat out came out and said that Brendan Banfield and Juliana...
01:47:34
Speaker
Perez Malgahiz had used a sex fetish website on the internet and lured Joseph Ryan to their home so that they could make it look like this killing. um One of the things that was interesting about all of this is Juliana Perez Malgahiz that morning was taking the couple's very young daughter to the zoo and And then she returned home.
01:47:55
Speaker
The story was she had forgotten their lunches. She spotted Joseph Ryan's car in the driveway. She tries to reach Christine. She contacts Brendan Banfield. Brendan Banfield comes home. They find Joseph Ryan in the Banfield's bedroom with Christine, where Joseph Ryan is subsequently shot in the head in chess.
01:48:13
Speaker
And it was said by the prosecutors that Christine had been stabbed by her husband. And Joseph Ryan had just arrived and found this situation. Now, Juliana has pled guilty to manslaughter as of October 2024.
01:48:29
Speaker
The husband is charged around the same time, and he's been coming into court, and a couple of things have been... at the center of some defense motions. One of those things was the young daughter had spoken with a forensic interviewer about what she believed had happened in the morning of the killing. like So the morning that her mother was killed in her home, she's given an interview to a qualified forensic examiner.
01:48:55
Speaker
But on July 25th, Judge ah Penny Askerati ruled that That interview could not be used by the prosecutors. So the prosecutor had been arguing that that interview should be admissible because it was evidence that the daughter was a victim of the father's alleged killing.
01:49:15
Speaker
According to depuie Deputy Commonwealth Attorney Eric Klingon, he said it's an act of abuse against her by virtue of what her father did that morning. So they took the extra step and indicted him on child abuse and felony child cruelty.
01:49:28
Speaker
But Banfield's defense attorney argued he did not consent for the child to be interviewed. So Askarati, the judge, said that the interview would be admissible if the child was being directly victimized by the parents, but the child abuse-related charges were not the basis for the interview. They were kind of ah ah back-end cover-up. So that's the first part.
01:49:50
Speaker
We've... We've got it kicked. This interview is not coming in as testimony. What do you think about it? I think that, ah so on
01:50:04
Speaker
on its face, when you have parents in this situation, now, granted, they didn't know what had happened at the point the child was going to be interviewed, right? Correct. I don't know how much that actually matters, but you've got a situation where um if one parent killed the other parent, they would be the sole person who could not allow investigators to interview the child.
01:50:31
Speaker
Okay. yeah That's what is basically being said here. And that's wrong. There, there's a issue with that. Right. Right. um Now to just interview the child, you know,
01:50:44
Speaker
I don't know. It seems almost like they would need a guardian ad litem situation um or, you know, somehow to go before a judge and have a judge order it be the child be interviewed.
01:50:57
Speaker
Something else, which, you know, obviously none of that happened in this case. for They interviewed the child, right? Comes up much later. um The other part about that is, like, what if the child cleared the father somehow, right? Right.
01:51:13
Speaker
I'm just saying that like they didn't know at the time that they were interviewing the child whether it mattered one way or the other. Oh, I see what you're saying. So you're saying it's more of an an interview for facts. It's a neutrality thing.
01:51:29
Speaker
Correct. Okay. Because they didn't know. They had two dead people or two people who, yeah, they they died. Yeah. um They've got a stranger who was – ah There was no question that was shot by the husband and the nanny, right? Correct.
01:51:47
Speaker
And they've got the wife who was, think, stabbed to death. Correct. Right. Is that right? yeah Or was she shot? She stabbed. Okay. And so the child was there, right? You've got a situation where regardless of what the ultimate outcome is, what comes up later in the case, you're there's questions from the jump, like in the event you called, ah like for the nanny, you called, ah the father back.
01:52:22
Speaker
Why wasn't anybody shielding this child? Right. Like that type of thing. Um, where my point is, the judgment Cody questioned now questioning the judgment of the adults in the room, which only the father would have the right as a guardian. Right.
01:52:43
Speaker
Right. management Right. The mom's dead, but there is a process to get that child a neutral guardian. Exactly. That's what and I was thinking. But, uh, you know, in the event, the child's, uh, interview was not, um, like if it was somehow exculpatory,
01:53:02
Speaker
Okay. Right. They wouldn't be arguing for it to not be put in Right. I think you're correct. Yeah. Right. And so they would want it in there.
01:53:12
Speaker
And so because she was actually a witness to the events as they were unfolding in some capacity, like we don't really know. We probably never will know because the judge has said it can't come in But I don't necessarily think investigators did the wrong thing there. And it would be really hard to gauge The situation before you've got a defense attorney saying, like, we don't want that to come in because the parent and the the accused parent at this point didn't consent.
01:53:46
Speaker
Right. That's a weird it's a weird type of situation because, again, they didn't know what the child would say. right And so here the way this goes down is.
01:53:58
Speaker
The prosecutors have given the defense this forensic interview, which is very common. CMEs and local forensic interviews are very common in criminal cases that involve children in any way, whether they're the defendant, the victim, the there prosecution's witness.
01:54:16
Speaker
any Any connection to a case, you can end up with is happening. They're not uncommon at all. and so A senior forensic interviewer named Carla Claudio Silva works at a center called the Safe Spot Children's Advocacy Center.
01:54:33
Speaker
She is the one who conducted this interview of this, at the time, four-year-old child. And the defense is challenging the youth saying it's been done without any consent of a parent or guardian. Well,
01:54:45
Speaker
well According to testimony, Carla Claudio Silva testified that it's normal practice to have the necessary authorization and consent beforehand, and that she made the assumption that law enforcement had secured that.
01:55:00
Speaker
She also stated that the grandparents were present there at the police station before this interview was conducted. So the point in all of that is, in addition to that, couple of statements, a guardian ad litem could have been appointed for this child, who would have been making these types of legal decisions if the grandparents were not in a position to do so.
01:55:24
Speaker
Right. And that's interesting because ah the interviewer, to some extent, could have... thought, well, obviously there's consent here because the grandparents would stop this if there weren't, or it may not have even occurred to them because by the time the child gets to them, all that should have been taken care of already. Right. So that calls into question like some of the fairfox Fairfax Police Department's procedures in their investigation, particularly related to children.
01:55:54
Speaker
Right. And I think that ah that the premise of that, sadly, is probably going to have to be ah more defined, right? It is.
01:56:05
Speaker
Because of, there's just a lot of nuances there as far as, um you know, how you don't want a parent that's killed the other parent to have the sole discretion and to say you can't interview the child.
01:56:21
Speaker
if the child could have been a witness. And the the right thing to do is like a social worker or a guardian ad litem, a neutral party that is representing the interests of the child, right?
01:56:34
Speaker
Right. They have to be appointed by the court and the court says they can make whatever decisions are necessary to to make these decisions. But I was a little disturbed by how the prosecution approached this.
01:56:46
Speaker
They decided to say that they weren't there to collect details about any murders. They were just ah having a conversation or discussion with this child about possible abuse or neglect they could have potentially suffered.
01:57:02
Speaker
That was the prosecution's defense because the statute is very narrow in what type of exigent circumstances exist for these types of interviews where they can do them without the right consent or authorization.
01:57:15
Speaker
And the prosecutors then went on to say that they were having a child abuse conversation and the killings just came up as happenstance. Well, sure. And, you know, obviously it,
01:57:31
Speaker
i can see I can sort of see where if—now, I do think there are two different things. However, i would say that if there's a strong suspicion of investigators that ah the father of a child killed the mother or was involved in the killing of the mother, that you would naturally have to evaluate ah any sort of, you would have to evaluate the environment the child had been in right? 100%, yeah.
01:58:04
Speaker
And so i get that, and that makes sense. um I don't know, and I don't think it's really addressed in what we had. Not so far, no. To go off of, I don't know like what kind of blur this is going to be, right? I don't know. I don't think it's going to be like a huge one um It certainly isn't completely undermining the case because keep in mind the nanny has already pleaded.
01:58:32
Speaker
She's pled, but she hasn't been sentenced and her PSI is not complete, which means they're relying on her testimony to implicate Brandon Ben, Brendan Banfield in the murders of the murder plot itself and the murder of Joseph Ryan and then also the murder of Christine Banfield.
01:58:50
Speaker
So all of that has to now be kind of resting on her shoulders. Right. And I actually, um i think that to some extent, because there is that other witness who we'll talk about in a second, I i will say something about her in a second.
01:59:08
Speaker
Because there is that other adult witness, I think it's probably better they don't put the child through the trauma anyway. um i tend to agree. Are you talking about Carla Silva?
01:59:21
Speaker
ah no I'm talking about. The interviewer? Oh, well, I mean, she can't. Can she testify? No, I mean, no. but I'm talking about the fact that um the nanny, right? Right.
01:59:37
Speaker
She knows what happened. Yeah, yeah. And there's not a 911 call. Right. Right. Where she, like, literally says what happened. Correct. And, you know, all of her, like, she either has to explain the discrepancy or it is what it is. Correct. Yes.
01:59:54
Speaker
And so because there's that evidence there. um And ah like a plethora of other evidence, unless it's all been thrown out at this point, I don't know that it really even matters. um Whether or not the child testifies.
02:00:09
Speaker
Correct. Now, it might bolster the case, right? I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't help the defendant's case. If there was something being said here where this girl testifying helped the defense, the defense never would have said a word about this.
02:00:23
Speaker
Okay, that's what I'm getting at. Yes, exactly. Now, I heard this... I guess in... I don't know. I don't know where it was from, but there is a source for it. And the idea was in the monitoring of the nanny's ah communications while she's being held, um she has, in fact...
Nanny's Testimony and Digital Evidence
02:00:46
Speaker
expressed to, I think it's her family, may maybe her mother or a sister or an aunt, or it's it's another family member of hers. um And keep in mind, she's from a different country. Correct.
02:00:58
Speaker
And She has expressed that she feels remorse for turning against the father, the her her employ boyfriend her employer and subsequently her like lover. or I don't really know what the right word is, but she was they were in a relationship after murders, right?
02:01:22
Speaker
Correct. Okay. And so she has said like, yeah, I'm, you know, I feel terrible because I'm going against him. And so there's like that sort of element to it. And to me, that is a sign of her being like kind of a victim to you, right?
02:01:41
Speaker
i mean, ultimately, yes, but it's about to make it even feel more like she's a victim. um There's like one more thing. i don't know if you've got more on this or if you want me to Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that was all. So in the court document, yes, this is, I believe it is her mother or grandmother. She says that she feels badly that she is in a position where she has to testify about some things that in it will be in Brendan's case. We can't tell from what's been released on that how much is like actual...
02:02:17
Speaker
potentially going to help the defense or if it's going to like hurt the defense depending on how she testifies like we don't get that element of it we just get that like there's some kind of regret being expressed that having taken the plea deal to save herself so to speak but according to these court documents we have some issues and those issues are not to do with uh juliana per se but they do kind of affect her So one of the arguments being made over the last couple of weeks here is who is using the laptop in the house and not just who is using it, but how the Fairfax police have responded to the employees of Fairfax County over what they did with the laptops.
02:03:04
Speaker
So according to ah report from Fairfax Times, last Friday, Brendan Banfield's lawyers, they were arguing that the prosecution's case is wrong. If the prosecutors are going to claim that he created a fetish website profile in his wife's name to Lord Joseph Ryan to the home.
02:03:21
Speaker
According to these court documents, Fairfax County police employees reported that... the evidence they have come across does not support any kind of catfishing.
02:03:33
Speaker
In fact, a digital forensics officer said his analysis of devices and online accounts showed it had to have been Christine Banfield, who was soliciting multiple partners on this website. Not only that, but he sent his findings out because of the way his supervisors responded and got them peer reviewed from multiple people at the University of Alabama And they confirmed his conclusions.
02:03:59
Speaker
So on top of that, we now have multiple people in the police department being shuffled around, ah like being told they can't do their job anymore because of how they did their job.
02:04:16
Speaker
ah Judge Penny Askerati again, um she says, or Askerati again, she says prosecutors need to review all the police communications related to the transfer of an officer who worked on the double homicide case and that they better start turning over anything that may be exculpatory.
02:04:34
Speaker
So exculpatory evidence, that's when it could show that a defendant didn't do something. According to Deputy Chief of Staff Lauren Birnbaum with the Office of the Fairfax Commonwealth's Attorney, the judge ruled that prosecutors did not violate any Brady obligations. Brady obligations are, of course,
02:04:53
Speaker
obligations from much older case, Brady v. Maryland, they require prosecutors to disclose evidence favorable to the accused that could help the defense or weaken the prosecutor's case.
02:05:05
Speaker
The court also authorized their office to review personnel files related to the transfer of an investigator in the case, records that are rarely examined as a part of criminal proceedings.
02:05:16
Speaker
According to the Commonwealth's attorney, Steve Descano, he says early last year, double murder devastated two families and shocked our community. This is a 2024 statement he made about running Manfield.
02:05:27
Speaker
I will ensure that my office puts forward the strongest case possible at trial and that we continue to seek justice for the victims and their families. I'm grateful to the Fairfax County police for the thorough investigation and close partnership with deputy Commonwealth's attorneys, Eric Klingon and Kelsey Gill on this case.
02:05:44
Speaker
But what we're finding out now is that multiple people have been shuffled around in their position as investigators. and The judge wants the prosecution to explain it.
02:05:56
Speaker
And i watched multiple videos on this. I honestly don't, I cannot tell if this is the defense throwing some spaghetti or if this is real yet. But if those findings support Christine Banfield having been active on the internet and having like created her own accounts and solicited her own partners, the prosecution has a massive problem.
02:06:24
Speaker
I would agree with that. um However, ah just keeping in mind, um the idea was if we go with like,
02:06:37
Speaker
if if we go with like the narrative like we sort of went along with um was they were playing a long game here, right? I agree with you.
02:06:49
Speaker
Okay. And I would say one of the most difficult things to ever prove or disprove or even definitive evidence is like definitive evidence of is would be in a situation where you've got devices happening ah devices being used in a residence and like in the event it was like somebody else wanted to access them they could right yeah i have a feeling i feel like one of the hardest things to do would be to prove who was actually behind the device right i tend to agree with you
02:07:32
Speaker
Okay. And so to me, I don't find it as alarming. Now, it is alarming that they're like shuffling people around. um And I don't know how a jury will perceive it. However, i don't find it that odd that it doesn't look like um there was catfishing fishing happening because they were playing the long game and they would have wanted to make it look like she was doing it.
02:08:00
Speaker
I agree with you. I'm just saying if these guys from the prosecution's team, ultimately, that's what we'll call them, they're law enforcement on the prosecution's team, if they legitimately came up with evidence that like made it impossible for Juliana or Brendan to have been catfishing, they have a major problem.
02:08:21
Speaker
Well, yeah, that's true, but i didn't I didn't necessarily understand that. I understood that they couldn't really show that there was catfishing being going happening, um as opposed to that Christine was definitely responsible. I don't even think that they, just like you can't show that there was catfishing or like somebody pretending to be Christine, you can't show that it was definitely her either. No, no, that's that's where I'm at. like
02:08:52
Speaker
So we kind of started this off talking about like why we cover the things that we cover. That's the question I have. like I want to know, like what are they testifying to here? Are they saying they got kicked out of their job because they showed it wasn't these people or because they showed it might not be these people? like How serious is this that they're being...
02:09:19
Speaker
Essentially, sounds like somebody's being bullied a little bit. It's possible um because, you know, granted, we don't know what's actually happening, right? Not yet, no.
02:09:31
Speaker
And it is – I don't agree with this angle of defense attorney – what would you – strategy, I guess.
Digital Analysis and Trial Impact
02:09:43
Speaker
um I don't agree with this. I feel like it's confusing. Ultimately – What should occur um at trial, I think, is you present the facts, right? And they can testify. I do feel like whatever an analyst comes to the conclusion of is what they should testify to. you And then you have to rebut it if necessary. And then the jury has to look at it and either say, like, we don't care about any of that, or they've got to make a determination and find out what the facts are.
02:10:15
Speaker
yeah Yeah, but one of the comments that was made about this analyst, and I don't know if their name is out there yet, so I'm not going to use it just yet, but it's going to be out there soon. One of the comments that I have on this is, if I read this CV correctly, and this analyst has been doing this for years, and this police captain said, you don't know what you're talking about, then this case is over before trial.
02:10:39
Speaker
Because if Christine Banfield invited Joseph Ryan to that house, then it's conclusive. And I don't know that yet. I'm devil's advocate of this based on what has been said in the different articles and different videos we've watched.
02:10:51
Speaker
It may not be said. It could be some BS like you're saying. Like there could be this whole you know Karen Reid angle to this that I hate. But if there is like conclusive proof of some kind that like a liaison was set up between Joseph Ryan and and Christine Banfield, or if they had seen each other before, or anything like that, if that has happened,
02:11:13
Speaker
They proved that there's FaceTime videos between them. There's some kind of other evidence that proves that the two of them knew each other. No matter what the prosecutors say here, if they don't turn this very quickly into a he caught his wife cheating and killed the two of them situation, they're screwed at trial.
02:11:33
Speaker
I don't know that for sure. um I think that it could have, it it actually would bolster the catfishing situation if she had communicated with him. Because let's say the husband found out, right?
02:11:46
Speaker
Well, he could just use That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Like if she did it for real, then they need to switch and get rid of the catfishing for trial.
02:11:58
Speaker
Well, yeah, but the I think the point would be, like, I don't think she had invited him over that morning. I don't think she i don't think she had anything to—I think all of those external aspects were made up.
02:12:11
Speaker
um That's just my opinion of what we initially thought about the case. I do see where analysts could be saying, like, we have no evidence of catfishing here. Right. I also don't think that they're going to be able to show definitively that she did Right.
02:12:28
Speaker
Because, I mean, unless they've got her, what, on video doing it? i don't know how. Like, I haven't seen everything. You see where it could be a situation where you're like, well, this happened, but we have no idea who was sitting behind the device when it was happening. Well, the impression I got, and this is just an impression. I have absolutely nothing to back up the next sentence.
02:12:47
Speaker
The impression I got was the reason University of Alabama and this analyst came to the conclusion they came to because there was a hidden device in the house. So there was some kind of device, whether it's a tablet or a phone, that had evidence of Christine Banfield having used it, that had the information related to some kind of meetups.
02:13:11
Speaker
I'm not saying it's the same thing. And that that device did not seem to be known to the other people in the house. I don't know how they know that.
02:13:22
Speaker
But that's the impression that I got that I think they were, I think that's what they sent out to be peer reviewed is like, like this is all her, right? And they were like, yeah. Which to your point, you know, maybe they had found it and they just left it secret and they were able to access it. And that's how they were able to better their catfishing, so to speak.
02:13:41
Speaker
Maybe that's how the whole catfishing idea came to be. Right. And I think, obviously, we'll see what happens. um It's weird. Oh, 100%. It's unfortunate that, I think that, just like everything else, I think that there's a subjective interpretation that is favoring the defense's position here. And while, if they can convince the jury of it, right, that's one thing. Yeah.
02:14:13
Speaker
It doesn't look good to switch around an analyst just because they're going to say something you don't like. Right. um That doesn't look good.
02:14:25
Speaker
And that pisses the analyst off as well, right? Yeah. I would say lacking... lacking and And I was trying to think, like, what could it be? Like, there could be quite a few things, but any sort of, like, pattern-type behavior or anything like that, I don't think that that's going to make it any less um feasible that they could have just as easily been pretending to be here her because they were playing the long game. If there was a ah hidden camera that shows she's on you know,
02:15:03
Speaker
If there is something like that, that's different, right? But then why is the nanny pleading? Well, so my whole thing in all of this is I'm still stuck where I think you were year and a half ago.
02:15:17
Speaker
Like, I had trouble imagining this woman... having this kid and having this life and doing all these things to the point that they need a nanny to help them like manage the childcare, like being caught up in some kind of like sexual rendezvous. That's where you and I kind of landed. We were like, that doesn't like it could happen, but we didn't think it was very likely.
02:15:41
Speaker
yeah I, I, yeah, I didn't feel like even in the event she was having some sort of wild, torrid second life. ah It wasn't at 7am at her own house. Right. Right. And that's, so that's still where I'm at, but I'm wondering, it BS or is it like legit and like, we're going to see something come out of it or are they doing their, is this their conspiracy?
02:16:07
Speaker
Well, and, you know, obviously you call an analyst to the stand, you ask them about, I'm not sure exactly where the complaint was coming from or whatever. um But if they're like, oh, yeah, well, I was moved.
02:16:20
Speaker
You know, I did come to a conclusion that you couldn't tell who was doing it. um But you did say that, like, they sent it out to be peer reviewed and stuff. So they were trying to back it up. right Yeah, they were testing like like what they had concluded. I don't know if they were testing because they'd been questioned by their superiors or their colleagues at the police office, or if they were testing it because they'd run into things that like they weren't sure if they were following the appropriate procedures.
02:16:45
Speaker
I think that we can rest assured that um if this was a product of the husband who recruited the nanny, it was well planned out on his part.
Crime Planning and Execution Speculation
02:16:59
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't surprise me that there could be these nuances or even not just nuances, but like actual like factual questions of evidence. Like, you know, it doesn't surprise me because he would be trying to make it look as real as possible. And in taking on something like that,
02:17:24
Speaker
you would have thought a lot of things through, I imagine, right? Like knowing that the police are going to be investigating and trying to make it look like it. I feel like it's actually, the answer would be any analyst that says they've definitively pinpointed she was doing it I think they would be wrong. I don't think they can tell one way or the other without some sort of camera in the house or something.
02:17:54
Speaker
Because even if I'm sitting here doing – if i I could sit at my husband's computer, do everything that made it look exactly like he was on his computer, right? Yeah. And an analyst looking at it would say, well, you know, this is exactly what he's done, you know, five out of six days for the last 15 years, right?
02:18:14
Speaker
looks like it's him. But I could have been doing it. you see Oh, I follow you 100%. I'm actually still with you. I am just saying. They brought it up.
02:18:26
Speaker
interesting It's interesting. It's an interesting aspect. And, you know, we've from the jump, we knew this is where this was going to go. the involvement of the analyst was Yeah.
02:18:39
Speaker
if depending on what it comes out to be right but perception is like 99 of the game at this point right 100 i think it's 100 of the game at this point like whatever happened that day was set in stone that day what we're doing now is we're sort of communicating with our jury pool and our jurors ahead of the trial like like we're trying to get as much information out there so i understand where the defense is coming from um and We've seen the greasiest versions of this this year where defenses do things that are like way beyond the normal scope of how you communicate with the public to the point that eventually they get some kind of gag order.
02:19:17
Speaker
Right. And, you know, if I hadn't have seen the what I feel like, well, I know it's the most extreme version I i have personally seen so far. I would say that like this would be.
02:19:28
Speaker
extreme, but it doesn't, it kind of pales in comparison because it seems like this can come back, right? Like they can get this back on track. They have to if they haven't done anything wrong. um I've only seen this like,
02:19:40
Speaker
In my opinion, I've only seen this playing out in the court. I don't see a lot of social media about this case. I don't see this free Brendan Banfield movement. um And like one of the questions I had all along was, like does him having law enforcement experience and being you know a special agent with the IRS and carrying a gun and a badge every day, is that going to have...
02:20:02
Speaker
like an influence on how he planned for this crime, because I would think that IRS agents are aware of a lot of the cutting edge forensic things that go on at least financially and with devices.
02:20:13
Speaker
Well, sure. um It's just going to be... It could just be fodder that the defense has... It's their duty to raise it because it looks suspicious.
02:20:25
Speaker
ah And they could come back and give completely plausible explanations for everything that's been alleged, right? Correct. And it this is a situation where when it boils down to it the jury's going to have to use some common sense.
02:20:44
Speaker
um And they can... They should go wherever the evidence leads to them, right? But it's got to make sense. And it seemed... And the nanny's testimony is going to be huge because...
02:21:02
Speaker
of the role she played, right? And that is kind of the, bit if there was, if the nanny didn't exist here, right? Let's say just for a second, the nanny doesn't exist. The husband leaves for work and let's say he drops the kid at daycare instead of there being a nanny, right? Yeah.
02:21:20
Speaker
Okay. You know, and then you've got this whole situation happening. It's a completely different thing, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, i think so. Okay. Because what had to have happened, according to them, would be Christine had an appointment with a person offline, no, online, ah to come to her house and have like bondage something or another, right?
02:21:49
Speaker
It was a very specific type of encounter. And I always felt like once he got there, i think Christine was already dead. and are dying, and they acted accordingly.
02:22:03
Speaker
But in the event that
02:22:08
Speaker
ah it was ah legit situation, that man got there and killed her like immediately. He didn't even enjoy the encounter,
02:22:19
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, I, you're down a path that like, I can't even imagine right now. Cause all I can see is like what they have to now present for me to like understand what's happening.
02:22:34
Speaker
And I think the, I think what you're saying will have to be in there. Well, right. And well, my point being this is, okay, so he comes, he kills her and it just so happens the nanny happens to come back for the lunches, right? And call Brenda. And then she immediately like panics because there's a car there, which is odd, I think. Um, and
02:23:07
Speaker
And gets the husband back. And, you know, they didn't do anything to shield the child, which I guess maybe that was part of the plan, but it was weird.
02:23:18
Speaker
um And then, in a way... He, the, the, the father of the child and the husband of the victim, he roped the nanny in because there was some sort of back and forth about like, go get the gun and shoot him again. Right. Yeah. Yes. It was like the craziest thing.
02:23:40
Speaker
yep And there was something wrong with that whole setup to begin with. There was no reason for her to have to shoot him. Okay. But it was almost like he was manipulating her, ah possibly because she is, she's from a different country.
02:23:58
Speaker
it was almost like he was manipulating her into having culpability. well So she would have to go along with the plan. yeah If that's the case, I'm not so sure she's guilty of anything.
02:24:11
Speaker
Well, she was very honest on the 911 call, um I think. Yes. Because if she wasn't being honest, I'm not really sure why she was saying what she said. Right. And you have to wonder, if you're going to be that honest on a 911 call, like do you know what you did was wrong?
02:24:32
Speaker
i don't think I think the answer is no You don't know. You were doing what you had been told. And she verbatim repeats it. It was a strange situation. he had a gun. Yeah. and he had her go get another gun and shoot him again, i think. Yeah. I can't really recall all of that. But all of that is documented on 911. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And we thought we thought like that was some kind of error in the planning. Yeah.
02:25:00
Speaker
Well, sure. And so my point sort of was, okay, put yourself in that situation. um of course, I'd be the mom, the wife, and I'd be dead. But, you know, just saying have been a nanny before. Okay.
02:25:15
Speaker
A long time ago. And the nanny's job at that point is not to go get the other gun and shoot him again. The nanny is to pick up the child and leave. Right. The whole situation. You see what i'm saying? Right.
02:25:28
Speaker
That's the difference, right? Now, could they have a plausible reason? Sure. i don't think they do. i think this was just a plan that went horribly wrong that was never going to go right to begin with.
02:25:42
Speaker
And ah it I can understand... where the defendant about to go on trial in October, I believe, you know, he's backpedaling from blowing up his life.
02:25:59
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And he thought he was smart. Because Christine certainly did not... ah contribute, I mean, she wasn't doing anything to contribute to this, right?
02:26:12
Speaker
Unless you say, oh she was like setting up these, this meeting or whatever. If they are able to show she communicated with this guy,
02:26:25
Speaker
it
02:26:28
Speaker
doesn't necessarily mean It's going to actually, i don't know does it make it less likely that he would have killed her? No, I don't know. That's what I'm saying. like That's what makes this interesting to me.
02:26:38
Speaker
and look, all of this is to say, i know what trial I'll be watching this fall, so I hope they put this trial on. like This is the trial that I want to see It is a domestic situation. it has just enough to it to warrant attention, right? Yeah. um As far as I'm concerned.
02:26:58
Speaker
and
02:27:01
Speaker
If how it played out is how i have thought the evidence showed that it played out.
02:27:10
Speaker
It's way less interesting, than Well, no, I have a special... I actually feel like it's one of the... Like, there's just so much behind that defendant doing what he did. it's incredibly cruel to have done it that way.
02:27:27
Speaker
And you essentially... Like, he... If it played out the way I think it played out, he penned her his wife's murder on a completely innocent bystander.
02:27:39
Speaker
And that's the thing that, like, I think drew us in in the first place was the fact that, like, it's this odd double murder meant to look a particular way.
Crime Timeline and Execution Analysis
02:27:50
Speaker
Like, almost like one of the murders is justifiable. And we just could not wrap our heads around Sort of what would become the defense version of this. Like, we just couldn't see it.
02:28:03
Speaker
um Now, you mentioned, like, um what if he just happened back and killed them both because she was cheating? Well, that didn't happen, right?
02:28:13
Speaker
I don't think. No, I just thrown that out there. I think that, like, I've wondered that along the way. Like, ah like is are we, like, Juliana calling him back. He discovers they're cheating. and Because she's alive. Like, Christine Banfield's alive in the house. Like, that's the one of the more interesting things is, like, she survives.
02:28:32
Speaker
um yeah No, she died. No, no, no. She survives. When she leaves the house, she's alive. But ultimately she dies. She dies pretty soon. But like my point is it kind of, when I heard that, because that for me came out and of these hearings.
02:28:50
Speaker
When I heard that, I realized that like my timeline was screwed up because I had always thought this guy did this early. And like the kid went about her day and the nanny went about her day and he went about his day and Christine was dead the whole time.
02:29:08
Speaker
So to find out that Joseph Ryan died at the scene, but Christine Banfield survives and makes it to the hospital, really threw me off in terms of my like original timeline I had in my head. So it just, it doesn't. Did we know if she's conscious?
02:29:24
Speaker
No, she's not conscious. Right. She's bled too much. I don't think she's conscious based on what they said. i i think I actually knew that. And I think I still. um You still were okay with the idea that she.
02:29:38
Speaker
had maybe been killed earlier. Is that what you mean? i think, where did the husband come from? He wasn't, he was like nearby. He gets there so fast. It threw me off. Um, of Juliana that I think it's the first day and then the arrest there's body cam footage out there.
02:29:57
Speaker
Well, to me, he, um, it was like he had, he had, it's like he knew to come home. It was like he was just waiting for her to get back so he could have a witness. Yeah. um But, like, I still felt like – because you can, you know, think you've killed somebody. Because I don't think she made any statements. I i never saw anything that indicated that there was – she was probably breathing and had a pulse to some extent. But, like, there weren't, like, visible signs of life, like her sitting there talking or anything. Correct.
02:30:33
Speaker
And so, to me – um
02:30:37
Speaker
you know i don I don't actually know how that went down. My thought was, though, that she had already been stabbed and was dying um by the time. Because I think the arrangement was like he was supposed to come over and just come in because of the encounter they were planning or whatever.
02:30:55
Speaker
Right, right. And so essentially I imagine that, you know, he's like, what is happening here? Right. yeah And then he's shot. She had, and what really got me was, um I think the nanny had driven like 30 minutes before she turned around to go get the lunches, something like that. It was quite a way. Yeah. Yeah.
02:31:18
Speaker
Because I was like, so, you know, again, I was a nanny a long time ago. And in the event that you forget lunches at a point where you're so far away, you buy lunch. that i remember I remember thinking that. And I also remember thinking, how did this guy not get all the way to work?
02:31:39
Speaker
And like, why was he not there? Because he came back so quick. It was like they were going through the steps of a plan. Yeah, and then her conversation on the 911 call. And i'm like I'm just letting you know I'm moving into speculation on anything else on this from the perspective of, like, that's about the extent of my knowledge so far, which is why I was saying I can't wait to see a trial in this case. And if he pleads out, they better have him allocute to everything that happened so we understand this.
02:32:10
Speaker
Well, I guess maybe it's a coping mechanism, but all of these cases that catch our attention. i already have how it probably happened in my head.
Trial Anticipation and Narrative Speculation
02:32:22
Speaker
And in the event the defendant doesn't allocute, which a lot of times they don't, right?
02:32:28
Speaker
um I already have a good version of what occurred, so I don't have to wonder about it. you just give yourself the gift of closure, and I'm like, you're like, this is how it happened? I give you the gift of closure, too. Now, people don't always buy into it, right?
02:32:42
Speaker
um There's been several cases that like people are like, oh, we'll never know what happened. And I'm like, well, this is what happened. And I tell them, right. And it's based on the evidence. i I don't think I just make this stuff up, right. It has to come from something.
02:32:58
Speaker
um And I absorb things at various rates. And like, in my mind, I could tell you exactly what happened here, right. And if he doesn't allocute,
02:33:09
Speaker
um or, well, if we go through the trial, it could change it depending on what comes out, right? Because I haven't been, like like, I've followed this case, but not to the extent where I'm reading all the filings or anything.
02:33:22
Speaker
um Just, you know, sort of here and there what's happening. Because there hasn't been, like, too much happening. We're just kind of waiting around for this trial. Yeah. um And from the very beginning, what was released And based on that, I knew what had happened, right?
02:33:41
Speaker
And um it helps me. Now, I try to stay open-minded. And if new at like if new evidence legitimately presents itself, and it's not just a defense strategy, right?
02:33:53
Speaker
so Because there's two different things there, right? At the end of the day, everything that occurred that day has already happened. Any sort of spin that occurs later, the difference it's going to make, the mileage will vary, right?
02:34:07
Speaker
Because I understand that for some reason, are they offering like new classes in law school of spin doctoring? no it's just a popular thing to do with the state of social media today. these aren't The people doing it aren't even lawyers who are getting out of law school.
02:34:26
Speaker
They're like lawyers that know better. Well, and i see, i I walk a line. I feel like it's, um unless they've got actual... indications that it's happening, which I hope they do, um they shouldn't be ah making sort of the accusations I thought I may be hearing, right?
02:34:48
Speaker
Unless they, like, they shouldn't be doing that to Spen. Well, if this whole analyst thing disappears before the trial, I won't watch it. Like, if it's confirmed that the defense is making something up, I won't i won't have anything to watch.
02:35:05
Speaker
Well, um... Right. And so if you think about the elements of the crime, right, I don't even think the question is just was it in self-defense or not, right?
02:35:17
Speaker
No, it's defense of others. um But you have a problem because the defense of others argument is knocked down. Basically, the defense says one justifiable homicide is connected to Juliana and to Brenton.
02:35:34
Speaker
The other homicide was committed by Joseph Ryan. Oh, yeah, that's right. Okay. um But
02:35:43
Speaker
ah there's no question he pulled the trigger. On Joseph Ryan. On Joseph Ryan. Okay. And, I mean, essentially, we want justice for all victims, but in this case... Do we have two victims or do we have a victim and another perpetrator?
02:36:03
Speaker
um Right, exactly. But if he gets, if they don't buy his defense, justifiable homicide defense, right? Right.
02:36:14
Speaker
Then they're answering the question because either he killed him for a reason or he didn't.
02:36:26
Speaker
Right. i mean, there's no like in between there. He was either, so if they find that the homicide was not justifiable, they're saying that the guy was not there killing his wife.
02:36:42
Speaker
Am I wrong? You're saying Joseph Ryan was not there killing Brennan Banfield's wife? If they say that... um Killing of Joseph Ryan is justifiable? No, if they say it's not justifiable...
02:36:57
Speaker
If they say that the husband was not justified in killing the man that was there, um that had met his wife. Right. If they say, no, you're guilty of murder for doing that. They are essentially say they don't believe that he was killing. That is correct.
02:37:13
Speaker
Okay. That's what I'm saying. So I'm saying that while it may not all be addressed, there is no in between here. Yeah. It's either it was a justifiable,
02:37:25
Speaker
um homicide or it wasn't. Yeah. Well, I tend to agree with that. I just am throwing this on everybody's radar because there's going to be more hearings coming up and then supposedly in less than 12 weeks of trial.
02:37:39
Speaker
So if that happens, this would be the one to watch for the fall. If it's got these, like ah if these aren't defense angles, if they're defense angles, those they should wrap up for the trial.
02:37:53
Speaker
I believe the judge will rule. They can't, utilize any BS here? I hope so. um i That would be good to see. Yeah, but but this will be the next one on the list. do you have anything else about this right now?
02:38:09
Speaker
Well, I was just going to say, i feel like it's an awful lot to set up. ah kate Because, you know, in the event that it really was just...
02:38:20
Speaker
ah self-defense or justifiable homicide or defense of others or whatever, like this is a whole lot to go around to essentially charges like a victim, right? Yeah. yeah I just don't see law enforcement doing that. but well they have they would if for For there to be a not guilty in this case, law enforcement has to have missed the boat entirely.
02:38:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I just, I don't know. We'll see what's going to happen. But yeah, that's it that's it. We'll just have to see how the rest of this plays out.
02:38:53
Speaker
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02:39:07
Speaker
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Speaker
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02:40:07
Speaker
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