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Season Six: Ep 2; The Cabin in the Woods
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:26
Speaker
This is True Crime XS.
00:01:00
Speaker
Okay, so you and I were just talking. This will probably be episode two of the year, and we're starting late. People have started like to ask questions. We're fine. I lost ah one of my dogs over the kind of the holiday season, and i I work full-time in criminal justice, and you and I were just talking about the fact that I'm picking stories that really are not covered by other podcasts, but also that like I don't have to go...
00:01:29
Speaker
into worlds and realms of of like what I do every day. We've got a number of things that we talked about in the episode previous to this that we are working on
Podcasting Challenges and Case Selection
00:01:38
Speaker
for the year. But I did pull some of these stories.
00:01:40
Speaker
It's nice to know people missed us, huh? Yeah, it is. like It's nice when people ask like what we're up to and what we're doing. Or if we're ever coming back. Yeah, i think that was the most recent one was like, are we coming back? We are.
00:01:52
Speaker
It wasn't really a planned pause. Life just happened. Yeah. And we felt like we gave everybody quite a bit to listen to anyway. Yeah, like that's the one of the reasons that we've always done the Christmas episodes the way we did them, even though they were more complicated this year because you ended up having to edit like pretty much all of Christmas. I think I did the first couple of episodes.
00:02:14
Speaker
The bottom line is the area that I'm in, we got some new judges and they want things to move along faster. So there's a lot of trials and stuff going on. And you were like, I can do this. And I think you had some things going on at your house and you were able to ah zip through all the Christmas episodes.
00:02:29
Speaker
And um that's, you know, it's quite a task to do 25 episodes like that. And you can kind of need a break afterwards. Well, but we should be back on track now, but we'll see how the year goes.
00:02:40
Speaker
yeah We'll see. We'll see how the year treats us. And we don't, you know, we don't banter a lot on here. look It's more about like kind of to clarifying what's happening informationally. Yeah. That's, it's also been really cold. And the recording booth that I use now is like very cold. We had snow storms where we are, lot going on there.
00:03:02
Speaker
and i think I was just like recapping, ah With you like what I'm doing day to day is more stressful than usual and also i still come ah even though i work in the criminal justice system. I'm on the defense side and um i'm i'm employed by a state agency, but like for defendants and it it makes things a lot more complicated in terms of scheduling and like kind of like how your brain operates.
00:03:30
Speaker
So sometimes i have like lots of good, good, like vibes and I'm able to move forward with ah easily getting through true crime stories. And sometimes I'm not. And if we just hit upon a space that for the first time really in five years, like I genuinely was kind of like, this is, this is hard.
00:03:49
Speaker
But to to put everyone's fears to rest, it is highly unlikely we'll disappear without a trace overnight. Yeah, no, we're not going to do that. We were just talking about how podcast has become podcasting has become a lot easier for some people, and there's a ah glut of podcasts out there. There's so many.
00:04:08
Speaker
And I listen to a lot of podcasts throughout the week, um but it definitely has changed. That being said, one of the things that happened that like caused the hiatus was I had gotten into a situation where A couple things. One was we had a family member of a story we covered a long time ago reach out to us, and we are considering how to cover their story.
00:04:35
Speaker
Very interesting, but it has caused some arguments like in-house here because it is weird. It's a weird perspective on it. Yeah, I'm considering how I make remarks in the future. Yeah, it's it's probably going to change how we treat some of these cases.
00:04:49
Speaker
um Another thing that had happened was... a family member of a missing person had reached out to us for assistance and I've been involved in trying to get the records
True Crime Case Updates
00:05:01
Speaker
on this. It's, um, it's, it's a very strange case and it's, it's got some age on it now.
00:05:07
Speaker
Um, I had done like a preliminary recording with this family member and shared it with you and then kind of gone down the rabbit trail. Normally i don't, spend as many hours as I have on this particular case without like us getting an episode out of it. But the truth is it's really complicated. And like, for some reason, some of the records are not being made available.
00:05:29
Speaker
um but the people, the players are all still alive, which is one of the things that complicates it. Um, except for the missing person, there are actually technically two people at the center of that story.
00:05:41
Speaker
um and we're working on that to see if there's any way, to do a series of interviews and for us to then record on that story, even though we covered it briefly a long, long time ago, like,
00:05:53
Speaker
Probably in the first 35 episodes of True Crime Excess, we're considering going back to it with some of the new information I've been able to gather and some of what the family has said, because it does have a lot of interesting elements.
00:06:06
Speaker
um And then we've had these like sort of looming cases where we were trying to get DNA for different things. And I brought you something that we thought we were going to be able to get a DNA profile on. That's an old murder that seems to also have a wrongful conviction element to it, but you looked at it and you were like,
00:06:24
Speaker
This is not what we need to do the DNA work on it. And so there's ah a third party who has a shorter podcast out there. She, um so she is someone that I want to figure out how to work with. we have old cases that we've been following up on.
00:06:38
Speaker
It's like, it gets difficult at times because you and I do everything for the show. There's no team behind us. There's no crew. We don't have employees or interns or anything. um but We don't get paid for what we do because we keep the advertising to a bare minimum. Um,
00:06:53
Speaker
Um, and that's, that's something that that we've had to you know kind of work on over time. Uh, that having been said, there's a lot of true crime updates that are coming around now. Um, I think you and I briefly discussed that there's something going on in the Asia degree case. Uh, I think it's too soon to talk about that stuff yet, but they've started to unseal some of the search warrants there. There is some movement. Yeah. It's very bizarre movement. Yeah.
00:07:20
Speaker
It is bizarre movement, and it's also one of those things where I look at it and I go, see, like, it's not as crazy out there in the world as you think. Some of these accidents are starting to make more sense.
00:07:34
Speaker
yeah i Yeah, I mean, one of it it doesn't seem like both of those things could be true as far as what they're saying in that case, but we'll see. i mean, basically, ah they haven't put anything solid out. There were search warrants, then there's rumors now, and then there's information gleaned from the search warrants, right?
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, because they're unsealing pieces of yeah. And so until that really kind of firms up... There's not really much we can say about it, but you can find it. It's on the internet. Yeah. And I know there's some other stuff that's happened with Rex Heuermann, who usually I would cover, but like the information has started to dribble in that case. and I think I'm a little bit scared of Rex Heuermann.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah. I think there there may be more to him than anybody realizes. And then I know that Brian Koberger just did a Frank's motion, which... he was seeking ah to not include all the DNA evidence basically that led to him as a suspect. And of course, all those motions were denied because that's well-established law that if you discard your trash to be picked up by the trash truck, you know, there is no Fourth Amendment violation and you have no right to privacy on your relative's
00:08:50
Speaker
DNA profile that they optionally and willingly gave to a commercial DNA database. Yeah. Now, I don't know if you heard or not, but Karen Reed had a recent thing just this week and Judge Kanone, Bev, can I think it's Kanone. I might be saying it wrong. But anyway, the judge in that case, she said, um,
00:09:15
Speaker
that she had just received some information that the from the prosecution that was very alarming. oh And then the hearing just sort of ended. So i was i haven't watched that hearing. i just saw the clip of it.
00:09:30
Speaker
And I'm wondering like what has happened. They've really pushed that to the bounds of the law and
Karen Reed Case Analysis
00:09:38
Speaker
beyond. And i will say The prosecution or the defense?
00:09:43
Speaker
The defense. The defense has pushed it. um What I mean by that is they took it all the way to the the Supreme Court of Massachusetts. are the Gotcha. And they were saying that based on the affidavits of her defense attorneys talking with the jurors, that they should in fact impose that it's double jeopardy to bring two of the charges back against her because essentially ah the jury had decided she was not guilty of those charges. It was, it was such a reach that the arm wasn't in the socket anymore. Right. Yeah.
00:10:21
Speaker
And I will say Mr. Reed, who is Karen Reed's father, i suppose is getting his money's worth. But there's a point in time where it's going to have to be recognized how farcical all of it is.
00:10:42
Speaker
um and you can, we're, we're going to get a good show when the trial goes back on. But this is, um, this is one of those cases for the ages, really. Um, and you know, you can think whatever you want about it, but the bottom line is like, sometimes it's such a reach. Like for example, like I just said, the jury coming back and talking to the attorneys and them trying to say that they actually found her guilty of, I mean, found her not guilty of two of the charges.
00:11:15
Speaker
so That's not how the law works. Yeah. That case and then the Delphi case. And then there's another case that we're not going to get to today. But um those two cases...
00:11:29
Speaker
Some of the defense behavior, which I typically, don't get me wrong, typically i applaud and I love a zealous defense. It is a huge part of my day-to-day world. I love it. But Delphi and Karen Reed, for me, in terms of the outlandish claims made on paper that in some ways kind of of appear to be attempting to try the case in like the court of public opinion.
00:12:03
Speaker
Correct. Yeah. Um, I need has been so substantially more successful, I think. Yeah, that that's what i was ah that's what I was going to say. as outlandish as those two things are, for them to have like the complete opposite like sort of end results, because Karen Reed gets a mistrial on her first round, and now they're they're really trying to not have her try this case again. And honestly, if I was the prosecutor in that case, I would take the evidence that I saw presented in that courtroom, and I would make it a first-degree murder.
00:12:35
Speaker
And I would turn it around on her, and i would say, look, if you want to plead out to a manslaughter, now's the time. If not, we're going to trial and first-degree murder. And I feel like it's refreshing, reassuring, something. It's something to see these outlandish arguments go all the way up to the...
00:12:57
Speaker
the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts. And, you know, they just, they very calmly rule exactly how the law requires it to be ruled. Right. Yeah.
00:13:08
Speaker
And basically the statement is the banter, the, ah the jurors have with the defense attorneys after court has been declared, um after the case has been declared a mistrial has absolutely no bearing on the verdict.
00:13:25
Speaker
Correct. Which is kind of common sense, right? I've seen cases where they actually bring back in the jury solely for the purpose of like an Allen charge or a dynamite charge.
00:13:39
Speaker
And they go through verdicts that have been reached. And the judge carefully walks through the process of making sure those charges are like...
00:13:52
Speaker
held up and looked at from the perspective of, okay, this jury is like about to be hung and causing a mistrial on this one charge, but we are going to like take care of these other charges. The problem is when you get into underlying offenses, it's not as easy to do that when you're not dealing with one of the charges on paper.
00:14:12
Speaker
Well, not to mention it should have happened before court adjourned. Correct. And that's once they're discharged, they're discharged. That's it. And the theory behind Karen Reed's case, like how how it's been presented, is like there's this mass conspiracy cover-up situation.
00:14:30
Speaker
As opposed to one angry woman not realizing it's premeditative, if you see him in your rear view or rear view camera and you move the gear shift, that's premeditation.
00:14:43
Speaker
And if... the What they're seizing on here is once they've presented all this stuff and you've got, you know, Judge Kanoni having to...
00:14:55
Speaker
having to make all these rulings, like they seize it even further to make it confusing for the people who are absorbing it the observers. yeah And so they're thinking um that, oh, even more unfairness is happening, right?
00:15:13
Speaker
Because it can get really confusing when you've got, you know, quote, attorneys, end quote. And I say that because they're looked at like there's some sort of um authority on something and saying oh she was found not guilty of two of the charges and bringing them back ah and uh trying her for them again is double jeopardy that's not the case but because attorneys have said it it seems authoritative right and so it gets this like crowd of people who are already very upset even more upset because they feel like karen reed has been has had injustice again yeah
00:15:48
Speaker
yeah And I feel like that's the wrong thing to prey on here. Certainly, there's a lot of defense overkill going on in this case. Well, like I said, Mr. Reed is, I guess, getting his money's worth. um i I realize that this case is super simple, and it's gone way too far to have the simple the super simple outcome be had, right? Yeah. um I feel sorry for the O'Keefe family and what they've had to go through, and I hope... I feel like if somebody could just tell Karen Reed that...
00:16:26
Speaker
yeah just tell the truth, and let bygones be bygones and, you know, get this over with. Uh, I feel like that could be very helpful. Yeah, I think, I think so too.
00:16:39
Speaker
Like we'll let you off of everything that's happened this far. If you just tell us the truth, but it, you know, it's obviously it's gone too far to do that at this point. Yeah. and i you know, I look at that case, oh and,
00:16:56
Speaker
It's so obvious that it's like a lot of misinformation going around about it. And I know there's just a couple of sources that sort of started that. um I've never seen faux influencers of the true crime world be so disingenuous and misleading.
00:17:18
Speaker
Or they're just really stupid. or criminals of their own right. um Well, I tell you what, somebody I speak with about cases on occasion came to me recently and said, did you know it was an 18-year-old boy that killed John O'Keefe?
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah. And so the flames of fury came out of my mouth and they were directed at the person asking me this question. And then they regretted asking me because like, I was like, yeah, so the news is and like, for the most part, somebody's random comment on social media is not fact.
00:17:59
Speaker
Okay. Okay. And anyway, i you know that was obviously a reference to one of the witnesses that has been called to testify for the prosecution and the trial. And I don't even know what to say to that. It's not true, right? i i I actually think after the next, I think they should let these attorneys continue. And then after the next trial, they should disbar everybody on the defense side You know, don't they seem like they would be smart enough to realize that's where they're headed?
00:18:29
Speaker
They don't. And, like, they they were fine to a point. um But I realize that if you're dumb enough to keep making those motions, I mean, don't get me wrong. It takes of, like, legal...
00:18:41
Speaker
set of like legal Cajones. Cajones to do some of the things that they're doing. But when you start dragging and when you start dragging witnesses in, and those witnesses that you're dragging in are being intimidated by the general public because of the rigmarole surrounding the case, um you know, at some point somebody's got to call shenanigans there. And this, I i actually think it'll be...
00:19:16
Speaker
the the motions they're filing now, I think will be what do her end. Because as a prosecutor, what you could do is swing around, like I said, hit her with first degree murder, try her for first degree murder.
00:19:29
Speaker
And that becomes a much more expensive defense case than it is already. And it becomes a case where I don't think you have any wiggle room except to plea. And I do, I think, you know, for the record,
00:19:43
Speaker
in case no one knows this, Karen Reed killed John O'Keefe. She did. And that was probably more akin to like a manslaughter.
00:19:54
Speaker
i It might be, but I can argue the premeditation. No, no. Okay. Okay. So... Before all the trial stuff happened, I'm saying. yeah. it was probably like accidental manslaughter or something to that effect.
00:20:07
Speaker
Now, if I were the prosecutor, I would absolutely charge her with first-degree murder, and I would prove my case, and she would sit in jail for the rest of her life. And that's wrong for me to say that, but it's it's not wrong based on the circumstances, in my opinion, okay?
00:20:23
Speaker
It's gotten so out of control It's a, it's, it's interesting to watch because, you know, a public defender would not be bringing all these like theories to the judge and then taking them on appeal. Right. So it's good to see sort of the expansiveness of your novel theory. Right. Like how, you know, what they're, what they did with the jury was very interesting.
00:20:46
Speaker
What I didn't realize was how confusing it would be to the general public. Yeah. Yeah. Because the general public actually feels like what the defense attorneys presented, like that now the prosecution is violating Karen Reed's right to not be to du to not have to endure double jeopardy, right? That's not what's happening. It's just a theory her defense attorney threw at the wall to see if it would stick.
00:21:14
Speaker
Right. But it actually, it it has bolstered the conspiracy. it has. Because they're like, oh, they won't even give her her rights. I'm like, well, yeah, but that was just a novel theory that attorneys can absolutely present. But that doesn't mean it's going to go anywhere or that it's correct.
00:21:32
Speaker
I feel like at some point... the attorney like If they weren't getting paid a lot of money, they would not be doing this. Oh, no. Those so those attorneys are cleaning up. but Do not let anyone fool you. The money that's been raised and the family money that's involved here, here like these guys are getting paid big dollars.
00:21:51
Speaker
And all I can say is... like i i I want to see the trial. ah i would I would actually be disappointed if they didn't allow it to be televised. um I think it's going to start in April at this point.
00:22:06
Speaker
i keep i will not be I will be getting recaps from you on the next round. Well, depending on the situation. I mean, if I can watch it, I'm going to watch it because I'm so fascinated by this case. I actually went online under an alter ego and I had some conversations with people from both sides and I learned a lot from my little endeavor. None of it good though, right? None of it good though, right?
00:22:32
Speaker
I learned that perfectly sane, normal people can become a victim of... The rumblings of a conspiracy. Like misinformation, you mean? um I guess.
00:22:48
Speaker
I couldn't. i tried to get to the bottom of it with, like, quite a few. I made friends with people from both sides because I, like, I'm not trying to argue the point. I already know what the truth is, right?
00:23:00
Speaker
I just wanted to hear... the unbiased assertion from either side, right? From the people who are making these big ruckuses.
00:23:12
Speaker
And I just never got there. And so it was it was enlightening, to say the least, because i don't I don't really interact with a lot of people because... there's no point, right? I mean, I already have made up my mind based on evidence um as to what happened. And based on, and I guess a lot of my experience comes into play there too, right? As far as like what's more likely to have happened here, right? Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
But it is astounding to me how far it got out of hand. Now, the only thing I can think is that gives me, which is probably not even true,
00:23:50
Speaker
I hope John O'Keefe is having a good laugh at his girlfriend's attempt to not go to jail for the rest of her of her life for killing him. You know? i I can't look at it from that perspective. Like, to me... Well, because otherwise it's very depressing. is really depressing. To think of what Mrs. and Mr. O'Keefe, John O'Keefe's parents, and then his brother and ah his niece and nephew are going through, it's it would put me just right over the edge. So i I just have to think to myself, you know, John O'Keefe was with Karen Reed.
00:24:24
Speaker
and They were on the verge of breaking up. But he has to be, like, hopefully... I don't know, enjoying the... Because even though he's pushed aside, he's still the focus of that.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like eventually it's going to get cleared up. And it's... I think they pushed it so far, I don't think it's going to be like a repeat type thing. I think the people, the main characters involved in the blatant dishonesty are going to be punished for it. And I don't mean just the attorneys.
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah, i there's probably some obstruction, some perjury, some other things. There's witness intimidation. There's certainly that. i don't I don't want to get into giving that time.
00:25:11
Speaker
No, no. I don't have any respect for of the things. For a variety of reasons. Yeah, yeah. and um You know, I am... i i am I've said this before. I'll say it 10 million times.
00:25:26
Speaker
I'm on the defense side, but this case ruins the defense side from the public perspective because of how ridiculous it is. Right, but if if the conspiracy hate wasn't there from the general public, it would be very fascinating to watch the see what the defense side is doing, and and every time they're denied, right? Yeah.
00:25:47
Speaker
And so that is really interesting to see the stretch of the law, because you know the law is all about attorneys coming to a case, and they're trying everything they can. You don't get that in most run-of-the-mill criminal cases.
00:26:02
Speaker
Right. right This is this is a ah case for the the books because you've got a lot of money being thrown around with defense attorneys who are willing to put themselves out there and and try these novel theories.
00:26:17
Speaker
and And see, to me, at the end of the day, the system is going to work to an extent. I do not believe the system was supposed to allow for this to go on like it does. However...
00:26:33
Speaker
At the end of the day, I think it will work.
00:26:37
Speaker
The system will. The system is going to work is what I'm saying. The defense won't. the defense isn't going to work, but like the system will uphold. like I would say the reason the system is broken is because this has been allowed to continue like it has.
00:26:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's a waste of judicial resources because beyond the money that the lawyers are getting paid and stuff, you're having to deal with the fact that like you've impaneled a jury, you have a courtroom tied up, you have a judge tied up. like This is the opposite of judicial efficiency. This is judicial waste.
00:27:07
Speaker
It is. It is incredible waste. And As someone who like knows how precious, it's not like law and order. The time on the trial calendar is incredibly precious. It should be reserved for actual questions of law and innocence or guilt.
00:27:24
Speaker
Not this nonsense. Right. You're absolutely right. And it takes a special kind of person to end up. i There is no love loss between the idea of Karen Reed and myself. Okay. Yeah.
00:27:38
Speaker
um i I don't know her, obviously, and I have a lot in common with her to some extent. Just yeah not her actions, but just you know age, time, place, education, that kind of thing, right? yeah And I think to myself, you know I realize what she's doing. She made a mistake. She did something stupid. She doesn't want to go to jail for the rest of her life.
00:28:05
Speaker
How far do you go? I certainly don't go to the extent of blaming teenagers. Yeah, there's like that's just one of like my issues with this case. there's this like The idea that like the conspiracy is true, and in case people wonder, it's not. 99% of cases where you hear about some kind of conspiracy or whatever, i mean, 99% of cases, period. The boring answer, the mundane one that doesn't really attract any attention, that's the truth.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah. That is a weird truth. I think that part of the problem with what Judge Canoni said at the most recent hearing was, I don't, I feel like they're, I think it has to do with ARCA not disclosing the massive amount of money it was paid to testify. oh that would make sense. and she said it was, like,
00:29:00
Speaker
She said it was very disturbing, and that then she, like, sort of paused the whole situation, I guess, to absorb it. And she I feel like she's thinking, what can I do to bring back that judicial efficiency, right? Not not that it's possible at this point.
00:29:16
Speaker
But anyway, I didn't really mean to get off on a tangent, but it has been a long time. There has been ah some activity in these cases, right? Yeah, exactly. And I wanted to sort of say that, and we're not going to cover Karen Reed's case except just in passing because of whenever the trial happens or whatever. Yeah, we had, at one point we had talked about Karen Reed.
00:29:36
Speaker
um It's back when we were talking about the Myrdal trial. We had also talked about... Some of the stuff that was coming around in the Holly Bobo case. So you and I do find those things interesting when there's updates in cases, particularly when there's legal movement, um affidavits filed, new evidence. We like to like dig into those. I know you watched some live trials. I watched some. That was how we ended last year. i was talking about one of the live trials we went through that was kind of a bottle of judicial efficiency.
00:30:05
Speaker
Oh my goodness, wasn't it though? Yeah, it really was.
Freddie McDowell Case Introduction
00:30:09
Speaker
And speaking of like weird cases related to judicial efficiency, I pulled one and I sent it to you and I said, hey, read this. This had come up because the person that's convicted in this case eventually i shared a name with someone who had a wrongful conviction long time ago.
00:30:28
Speaker
And so I had found them over the holidays and I had pulled this case and set it aside because I really wanted i wanted to talk about it, because I know nobody covers stuff like this. And it has a couple of things in it that sort of show you how appeals and court decisions are supposed to operate.
00:30:48
Speaker
But the case itself is kind of horrible, don't you think?
00:30:53
Speaker
It is horrible, but it's also... Rather routine, I would say. it yeah has the elements that you can sort of say, well, earlier we were sort of speculating about like, you know, what the heck.
00:31:09
Speaker
But for the most part, this seems like there's nothing going, well, that couldn't have possibly happened, right? Right. the The appeals in this case get a little weird. And that's sort of... Our sources for this are the North Carolina Court of Appeals and a couple of local articles and blogs that mention this case in passing many years ago.
00:31:32
Speaker
They're all old. ah But the the background for this case is... um in If you wanted to look this up and like kind of jump into this case, it would be State v. McDowell out of North Carolina.
00:31:45
Speaker
ah The appellate courts ruled... in 2011 on it but it it went on for several years to get to that point where this case starts is in june 2006 and the the defendant in this case is a guy named freddie lawrence mcdowell jr
00:32:06
Speaker
he lives in raleigh with his girlfriend and her parents they have by the time this all plays out in June, uh, they have apparently broken up, but they, the, the family, like the girlfriend's parents, they have a little mountain cabin out in Wilkes County, North Carolina.
00:32:28
Speaker
So Raleigh is sort of in the center of the state and Wilkes County is to the West. On Thursday, the 22nd of June in 2006,
00:32:39
Speaker
McDowell drives out to this little mountain cabin with his good friend, Drew Howell.
Drew Howell's Death
00:32:49
Speaker
According to testimony offered at trial, they had been friends for a number of years.
00:32:54
Speaker
And the two of them are... I think both going to be 20-ish years old. McDowell was born in 84, so he'll turn 22 after this incident. So you've been 21.
00:33:06
Speaker
I'm not 100% on Drew Howell. I think he is also 20, 21.
00:33:12
Speaker
They have brought with them multiple firearms. They brought two rifles, a shotgun, and a.38 caliber revolver, at least.
00:33:24
Speaker
The idea was they were going to take a week. You know, this is June. They're going to stay here till the beginning of July and they're going to drink and watch movies. They're going to play video games and they're going to have target practice out on this land.
00:33:41
Speaker
So the girlfriend's dad is a guy named Paul. Paul stops in over the weekend. So Thursday, June 22nd, when this starts, Paul stops in between the 23rd and the 25th and checks in on everybody.
00:33:56
Speaker
And the Ashley, who is the the ex-girlfriend by the time we get to court, but girlfriend at some point ah that the defendant lives with, and Cassie, her friend Cassie, they're going come and join Drew and Mr. McDowell ah June 30th, 2006.
00:34:21
Speaker
two thousand six So these guys are going to hang out for the week. The girls are going come down or come up to the mountains. And, you know they're going to have a little vacation going on.
00:34:35
Speaker
I just want to be clear. ah The cabin belongs to the girlfriend's parents. Correct. and the boyfriend and his friend are using it for vacation for a week.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yep. the girls are supposed to come meet them. And the father of the girlfriend who owns the cabin was there briefly and left. Yes.
00:34:56
Speaker
Okay. So where we pick up again is June 29th. And at around 11.30 p.m. June 29th, Cassie calls up to the cabin and she asks to speak with Drew.
00:35:12
Speaker
At the time, Freddy answers the phone and he tells Cassie that Drew is asleep. He tells her that it's not been a great week, that Drew has been homesick.
00:35:23
Speaker
And that in a couple of hours, Drew's going to wake up and Freddie is going to drive him home.
00:35:33
Speaker
Now, Cassie has been calling Drew's cell phone and she's left messages for him. She does not get a call back. That's how we end up with Freddie and Cassie talking.
00:35:47
Speaker
According to available phone records at the time of trial, Freddie had made 19 calls from this cabin in the woods. He had repeatedly called the owner of the cabin and his own father, Mr. McDowell.
00:36:03
Speaker
And he begins to tell them a story, but it happens about an hour before this conversation between Cassie and Freddie. 10.30 June until the early morning hours of June 30th, Freddie calls them these 19 times.
00:36:27
Speaker
Now, Freddie does not indicate during the calls exactly when he had shot Drew Howell, but he has confessed that he has shot Drew Howell.
00:36:40
Speaker
None of the calls that are placed are made to 911 for the purpose of obtaining emergency assistance. And in some places, you might call another number. I don't know how familiar Freddie McDowell is with this place.
00:36:53
Speaker
But around 3 a.m. m on June 30th, so in between the time he starts making these calls, after the time that he talks to Cassie,
00:37:09
Speaker
the people who own this cabin show up at the Wilkes County Sheriff's Office, and they speak with the deputy there. After they speak with him a couple of other deputies arrive and these deputies have the owner of the cabin make a phone call to the cabin to speak with Freddie McDowell.
00:37:33
Speaker
They record this phone call and after listening to this conversation between Freddie and the owner of the cabin, All of them get together, so multiple deputies, the owners of the cabin, and they drive out there to the cabin.
00:37:50
Speaker
The officers park at the top of the driveway that would lead them to the structure where Freddy and Drew have been staying.
00:38:00
Speaker
The owner of the cabin drives down and he has a conversation with Freddy and then drives him back out to where the deputies are at the top of the driveway.
00:38:15
Speaker
Freddie is arrested for, at the time, having shot Drew Howell. The arresting officers note in their reports that but Freddie smelt like he had been drinking.
00:38:35
Speaker
Freddy tells these officers he had taken some pills and he makes what's known as an excited utterance. So in court, there's a rule called hearsay.
00:38:46
Speaker
One of the exceptions to hearsay, which is if if you're testifying, Meg, you can't tell the court, the jury, the prosecutor, the defendant, the defense attorneys, the judge, what another person said. Right. you can't say You can't say, I heard them say, which is how hearsay comes to be. Correct.
00:39:08
Speaker
But one of the exceptions to hearsay is if you make an excited utterance. In this instance, after making this comment, ah I guess you want to know where the body is Freddie takes these deputies down a trail to a wooded area that has been described as being about 80 feet from the back deck of this cabin in the woods.
00:39:32
Speaker
And there, the deputies discover Drew's body. And it is, it's June, it's in the mountains. This body has been partly covered with leaves According to their notes in their and their incident report, the deputies observe ah what they describe as drag marks from the deck, like down the steps, and through the grass that contain some reddish substance.
00:39:59
Speaker
By the time they're doing all this, it's described in court as being between 5 and 6 in the morning. They're not exactly sure of the time ah this conversation like unfolds.
00:40:10
Speaker
but this is when they describe finding the body. They note that Drew is stiff and cold to the touch. In addition to having provided these deputies with information concerning the location of Drew's body, Freddy also tells the officers where they can find a.38 caliber revolver, which he said that he had shot Drew with.
00:40:35
Speaker
He said that he had hidden it under a grill cover on the deck. This is a.38 caliber charter revolver, and it is described as being a five-shot revolver. So it holds five bullets at a time.
00:40:50
Speaker
When the officers go to retrieve it, it is fully loaded, so it has five rounds in the chamber. And after they have located Drew's body and discovered this gun, the officers determine that no one else has been here.
00:41:06
Speaker
And at this point, a deputy named Deputy Wyatt accompanies Freddie McDowell to the Wilkes Regional Medical Center. At the hospital, Freddie McDowell tells a detective from the Wilkes County Sheriff's Department named Alex Nelson that he shot Drew Howell in self-defense.
00:41:30
Speaker
A forensic pathologist conducts an autopsy on Drew's body. Drew was determined to have had a blood alcohol level of 0.20. to zero And the doctor who conducted the autopsy determined that Drew had died as the result of multiple gunshot wounds.
00:41:49
Speaker
Specifically, he died of 45 gunshot wounds to his body. including a sufficient number of entrance and exit wounds to Drew's head that his entire brain had ultimately been destroyed.
00:42:07
Speaker
ah The pathologist counted 27 gunshot wounds in Drew's chest, abdomen, and pelvic area, and another 14 wounds in Drew's neck and head.
00:42:21
Speaker
And the last part of the autopsy testimony, ah the medical examiner ah giving the testimony detected a cluster of post-mortem gunshot wounds to Drew's genital area and multiple bullet wounds to his face that were determined to be post-mortem.
00:42:42
Speaker
ah These included wounds to his eyes and to his lips. Now, according to the em ME here, 32 of the wounds which Drew had sustained were inflicted while he was alive.
00:42:57
Speaker
13 of those wounds had been inflicted after his death. None of these wounds had been inflicted at close range.
00:43:07
Speaker
An analysis of the fly larvae that was found on Drew's body indicated that by the time the officers found his body, He had been dead for at least 12 hours.
00:43:20
Speaker
So the detective from the hospital and another detective from the Wilkes County Sheriff's Department, they come out to the crime scene together. And as they are looking at the crime scene, they realize they're going to need some help.
00:43:37
Speaker
So they call the State Bureau of Investigation and they request assistance in processing the scene and collecting evidence. Over the course of this ah processing, the investigating officers are able to collect spent casings and live projectiles from many different locations throughout the house.
00:43:58
Speaker
They find shotgun shells. They find.38 caliber cartridges. They find other firearms and other ammunition. This... goes on where they find bullets and firearms in the cabin, in the deck, on the deck, in the yard.
00:44:15
Speaker
They remove a projectile from the fireplace in the living room. They observe a bullet hole above the kitchen sink. All in all, they discover approximately 72 shell casings in the kitchen, dining, and living area inside of the ah cabin itself.
00:44:36
Speaker
The.38 caliber shell casings were found in the kitchen and the dining room. There were multiple bullet holes identified in the north wall of the living room. And the SBI officers used trajectory rods to locate the bullets that were probably responsible for making these holes.
00:44:55
Speaker
They discovered them in the bedroom behind the living room wall. So... They get a little bit, if you if you're reading this um in terms of the appellate documents or the court documents and the transcript, they get a little bit into some of the blood spray patterns here.
00:45:12
Speaker
I'm not a huge fan of blood spray patterns in most incidents, but there's so much going on here. They're trying to use anything they can put their hands on to sort of determine what's happened. Because if this is a self-defense shooting, as Freddie McDowell has claimed um against Drew,
00:45:33
Speaker
then they have to kind of dot their I's and cross their T's and see what they can figure out. They do find blood on the leg of a dining room table.
00:45:45
Speaker
They find stains of blood with DNA that ends up matching Drew ah inside the house, on the deck, in the yard, and in all of the locations which are consistent with someone having been dragged from the cabin to the location where the body was discovered.
00:46:04
Speaker
There's a bloody footwear impression that is found on the kitchen floor, and they end up eliminating Drew as a possible source for this impression, but they never are able to eliminate the possibility that the defendant has made the shoe print.
00:46:19
Speaker
The kitchen floor looks relatively clean, but the laminate floor in that room appeared to be chipped in places. The more they ah examine the space, they begin coming to the conclusion that there may have been a massive cleanup in the kitchen.
00:46:37
Speaker
And they use a couple of different chemicals to determine that there have been a large amount of blood on the kitchen floor. In addition, the officers find paper towels that test positive for blood in a trash bag.
00:46:49
Speaker
An examination of the damaged kitchen floor where the chips are establishes that blood has seeped beneath the surface of the floor into the subflooring in that area.
00:47:01
Speaker
They use a saw to remove an area of laminate from the kitchen floor and they find bullet holes that go into the padding and into the subfloor. They end up retrieving eight to 10 spent projectiles from the kitchen subfloor near the refrigerator.
00:47:19
Speaker
And in addition, officers find bloodstains near the bullet holes on the kitchen floor and the bloodstain pattern they find using chemicals at this location is consistent with two things. One is an effort to have clean the premises.
00:47:36
Speaker
you're going to have smears and wipes, but also with the dragging of Drew's body through this area and out of the cabin. ah They do a DNA analysis on all of this but blood, and the blood all belongs to Drew.
00:47:51
Speaker
They found um three bullets in the bedroom. ah 16 of the 18 bullets that are taken out of Mr. Howell's body and various bullets from the kitchen floor had all been fired from the.38 caliber revolver that the defendant had pointed to being hidden under the grill cover.
00:48:12
Speaker
And there are 33 bullet holes to the front of Mr. Howell's shirt that he was wearing, 28 holes to the back of that garment. They determine through an expert in ballistics that in order to shoot Mr. Howell the 45 times with his.38 caliber revolver, the defendant would have had to stop shooting and reload the weapon between eight and nine times.
00:48:38
Speaker
The expert that testifies on behalf of the SBI about this testifies that firing the.38 caliber revolver 45 times would have generated an inordinate amount of smoke.
00:48:52
Speaker
And the SBI had noted that a smoke detector had been removed from the ceiling and it was found on the floor of the cabin. Okay. So just describing that to you, that's...
00:49:06
Speaker
the case up through the point where they're recovering evidence. What do you think of this overall?
Freddie's Self-Defense Claim
00:49:13
Speaker
I feel like this is a ah straight up killing ah for, i guess at this point, unknown reasons.
00:49:27
Speaker
And it's overkill, right? Yeah. He was, there was clearly a lot of rage happening. And when I say that, it could be like anger or it could be, I guess, sort of impacted by whatever they were doing as far as, yeah i know he said he had taken like a pill or some pills or something, like if they were doing drugs or whatever. Yeah. um So, but this is a very, very ah violent encounter.
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah. And it's so violent that it almost,
00:50:10
Speaker
it defies what you would expect to hear, like from... Best friends that were having a vacation, or I don't know that they were best friends, but they were good enough friends that they were having a vacation together at, you know, a friend's or an associate's cabin, right? Yeah.
00:50:32
Speaker
So what do you think about it? Well, so right off the cuff, I have questions. like Just the the the how of like how everybody gets up here and finds out about this and him lying to the girlfriend um of the person that he's killed and then like calling back and forth between his parents and the owner of the cabin.
00:50:54
Speaker
like I do wonder more about like what those conversations were like. For me, um you said this was kind of routine. And, like, I guess it it is in some ways.
00:51:06
Speaker
Routine and to the extent of the motive. like Right, right. um But the the thing that shocked me about it was the 45 shots. That is insane.
00:51:17
Speaker
It is a lot of bullets. And, like, the fact that you have this five-shot revolver continuing to... reload it and reload it and reload it. I don't know it.
00:51:29
Speaker
I don't know what would account for that in terms of substances or like situations. We do have kind of ah take on this because the defendant testifies at trial.
00:51:41
Speaker
So at trial, what Freddie says is that he and Drew, they had got along well at during the first part of their visit. But by Wednesday, Drew was, quote, ill.
00:51:54
Speaker
And that's not really elaborated on, but the way that the way that it's testified to, it's ill like angry, not ill like sick. Sick, right. So on Wednesday, ah Freddie testifies that Drew had become ill, and he had refused to assist in cleaning the cabin. Mm-hmm.
00:52:14
Speaker
And although he continued to be both arrogant and, quote, ill, or ill-tempered, I guess would be the way to describe what he's saying, Freddie blew it off.
00:52:25
Speaker
And this according to his testimony. He went shopping for a broom since he could not find one in the cabin. At that point, ah they he said there was debris strewn all throughout the house, shotgun shells, shell casings, beer cans, and dishes.
00:52:41
Speaker
And Freddy says he did not want the owners of the cabin to show up and see the cabin looking like that. Well, as he's leaving to go get this broom, he says that Drew asked him to get some beer.
00:52:54
Speaker
And after Freddy returns, he didn't have the beer. He says that Drew became very angry and demanded that Freddy cook something. As a result, Freddy puts a pizza in and the two men began drinking a bottle of wine.
00:53:10
Speaker
After drinking the wine, Freddy says that he became intoxicated and he laid down on the couch in order to take a nap. He says that Drew had gone outside to do some shooting.
00:53:22
Speaker
And at some point... Drew came back inside the cabin and he had a really ill look on his face. When Freddie asked Drew what was wrong, Drew stated that the treatment that the defendant had received from the people who owned the cabin was not fair and that and that Freddie was getting better treatment than he deserved and that he would figure out how to keep the owners of the cabin, who are his girlfriend's ex-girlfriend's parents from treating him so well.
00:53:55
Speaker
So the two of them go out on the back deck and Freddie says that drew punched him and then jumped on top of him, hit him and cursed at him while Freddie begged drew to stop.
00:54:07
Speaker
After drew stopped hitting him, Freddie goes back inside the house. He goes back to the couch and he falls asleep. And he wakes up and he hears Drew shooting a gun.
00:54:19
Speaker
Freddy says that he told Drew to stop shooting because the owners of the cabin had asked him not to shoot at night. And in response to this request, Drew cursed at Freddy.
00:54:31
Speaker
Freddy says he went back to sleep. He was awakened when Drew said, get up, i'm going to kill you. So when he sat up, Freddy said that Drew was in the kitchen pointing the shotgun at his head.
00:54:43
Speaker
And at that point, Freddy panicked and grabbed the.38 caliber revolver. And when Drew looked down, Freddy shot him for fear that he was going to die.
00:54:54
Speaker
At that point, the shotgun is in Drew's hand. However, after Freddy shot him... Drew drops the shotgun to the floor and he says that Drew fell back against the refrigerator, but he tried to grab the shotgun again. So the defendant had picked up the revolver and shot him some more.
00:55:12
Speaker
That's all his testimony says. I picked the pistol up and I shot him some more. He does testify that he recalled shooting a few times. And after that, he only recalled the succession of shots. According to Freddy, he did not remember reloading the gun.
00:55:26
Speaker
He did not remember dragging Drew down the steps to the woods. He did not remember cleaning up all the blood before the deputies arrived. In addition, Freddy said he did not know how the shotgun got onto the bed in the bedroom, where it was discovered by investigating officers.
00:55:40
Speaker
According to Freddy's testimony, his next specific memory was waking up in the hospital. An expert in use of force testifies, they said, given the defendant's account of the events that occurred at the time of the shooting, the defendant's initial decision to use force against Drew would be reasonable given the pre-attack cues that Freddie had received um and the applicable use of force variables.
00:56:05
Speaker
The factors that this expert deemed relevant included Drew's decision to point a shotgun at the defendant, the fact that Drew threatened to kill Freddie, the defendant, the fact that Freddie feared for his life, and the fact that Freddie needed to react quickly.
00:56:23
Speaker
what do you think about that for testimony and expert testimony for the defense? um I feel like that was a strategy, right? oh yeah. Obviously, um because anytime you're looking at a situation like this, and it's interesting because there are certain things that can't be undone once the facts of the case have been established, ah especially with like the phone records indicating like he didn't call for help, and then the testimony from his father. I assume, I don't know if his father testified or not, but there were phone records indicating he called both
00:56:57
Speaker
um his father and his girlfriend's father who owned the cabin. Then he talked to Drew's girlfriend. And so there's, there's a lot of information that negates the possibility that this was self-defense.
00:57:13
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And so the play by play followed by the, the next thing I remember I was waking up in the hospital. Obviously it's not consistent, right?
00:57:25
Speaker
Yeah. That is not a consistent thing to remember. Not to mention,
00:57:32
Speaker
I know that there can be some variables to it, but for the most part, a self-defense type case is not going to be like this long drawn out situation. Yeah. and I feel like the defense, ah they were trying to mitigate the obvious circumstances.
00:57:57
Speaker
I, I hear what he's saying, but like it would fall on deaf ears probably
00:58:05
Speaker
as far as the fact finder goes, because it's just lining up too perfectly with what they would need to establish like to make this self-defense and with regard to, because when it's actually self-defense, it's not laid out like this. I don't think.
00:58:22
Speaker
Well, that's, i I'm sort of with you on that. I just, I think this part is interesting. so It is interesting. They have this self-defense, but then they also kind of ah deviate here a little bit.
00:58:35
Speaker
And they bring in a forensic psychiatrist, so a well-known forensic psychiatrist comes in. And he ends up learning quite a bit about the defendant. So the doctor learns that from June 11, 2006, which is about two and a half weeks before the shooting, give or take, to June 14, 2006, the defendant had been Bryn Mawr Hospital for alcohol detoxification.
00:59:03
Speaker
So he had a history of post-traumatic stress disorder, alcohol dependence, a personality disorder, and a history of head trauma. At the time of the discharge, so June fourteen Freddie is placed on a number of medications. He's placed on a mood stabilizer, an antidepressant, and a compound intended to treat the alcohol-dependent problem.
00:59:27
Speaker
So Freddie has told... this doctor that he and his mother didn't get along. His mother was violent and unpredictably abusive to him, that she would beat him with little or no provocation on his part, that she had kicked him out of the house when he was 16 or 17. Cause remember he's living with the owners of this cabin, his girlfriend's parents.
00:59:47
Speaker
By the time we meet him like five years after he's been kicked out of his house, uh, Freddie's parents, according to this doctor fall constantly, And keep in mind, he is only, the doctor is only able to work with what Freddie is giving him.
01:00:05
Speaker
So it's not meant to be for the truth of the matter. I'm just telling you what's in this testimony. So allegedly, Freddie's father was an alcoholic, and he would scream at Freddie and make derogatory comments about him.
01:00:19
Speaker
Freddie reported that he had a history of alcohol dependence. um He had multiple medically observed alcohol withdrawal symptoms. Among other things, Freddie had been expelled from school when he was in the 11th grade, allegedly for using alcohol.
01:00:37
Speaker
He had never remained employed for an extended period of time, and he was unemployed at the time of this incident. He a kid though, something to keep in mind, he's very young.
01:00:47
Speaker
He also reported a history of cocaine addiction, and he acknowledged having used other drugs. According to the doctor, PTSD is an anxiety-related condition resulting from exposure to one or more serious dangers or traumatic situations during the course of a person's life.
01:01:08
Speaker
Some individuals suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder are prone to brief dissociative episodes and And in addition to this, the doctor noted that Freddie did have what appeared to be a history of head trauma.
01:01:20
Speaker
And in February 2002, four and a half years before this incident, and Freddie had been seriously injured with a documented sign of a concussion when he was hit on the head with a metal plate or hubcap.
01:01:32
Speaker
um He had been treated for numerous facial fractures at UNC hospitals. He had had a CT scan, an MRI, and an EEG that had all produced normal results.
01:01:47
Speaker
But the doctor did continue his testimony to say that a person who sustained a head injury might be more prone to alcohol-related blackouts and that the defendant did have a history that was documented for these alcohol-related losses of consciousness.
01:02:02
Speaker
So...
01:02:05
Speaker
The report leads the doc to testify concerning the events surrounding the shooting of Drew to say that like what Freddie had told him generally corroborated what he ultimately testified to.
01:02:24
Speaker
Freddie had told the doc that he shot Drew while acting in self-defense, and then after initially shooting him, he recalled firing more shots at Drew from an area of the couch.
01:02:36
Speaker
However, Freddie claimed to have no clear recall of what had happened until he woke up at the hospital following his arrest. And in the doctor's opinion, at the time that he shot Drew, he would have been suffering from a post-traumatic stress incident that stemmed from his childhood history of abuse.
01:02:55
Speaker
And two other assaults that ah he believed could have been life-threatening, as well as polysubstance abuse and personality changes is stemming from the head injury.
01:03:06
Speaker
When asked how this PTSD might have affected ah Freddie's behavior at the time of the shooting, the doctor testified that a person suffering from PTSD tends to be hypervigilant and that a person, in this case, Freddie, who's suffering from post-traumatic stress, would have had an exaggerated response to a threat, such as Drew's decision to point a gun at Freddie.
01:03:28
Speaker
In addition, the doctor believed that Freddie's head injury made him impulsive and irritable and resulted in frontal lobe disinhibition, further affecting his ability to control his behavior or his impulsivity.
01:03:41
Speaker
Ultimately, the doctor was of the opinion that Freddie probably initially acted in self-defense before blacking out and then dissociating. They backed this up with another doctor. The state presents a rebuttal.
01:03:56
Speaker
Um,
01:03:58
Speaker
The bottom line is the two doctors on each side, got four doctors here, they're kind of arguing over whether or not this would prevent the defendant from forming the specific intent to kill Drew.
01:04:16
Speaker
What do you think of, of, of that concept that someone is high and somebody else is misbehaving and like, we're going to use self-defense because this guy has like put 45 gunshots in a human body.
01:04:33
Speaker
It's fodder for a trial. Yeah. In my opinion, I, uh, has a little bit of PTSD. Okay. Everybody does. Um,
01:04:44
Speaker
It manifests in different ways, depending on different situations and like, you know, what caused the PTSD and then what has triggered it. Right.
01:04:56
Speaker
And personally, i could believe all of that. I can believe both sides. I mean, I know they contradict one another, but I could believe all of it, but he's still guilty. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:10
Speaker
And so I'm i'm not sure. i feel like it's, for the most part, a defense trying to give someone a good defense. Yeah.
01:05:20
Speaker
You can have a thorough, good defense and still be very guilty. Yeah. and most of the time, nothing's going to change that.
01:05:32
Speaker
And there are some things that, you know, they kind of counter what's being said there. but Perhaps it's not widely known, regardless of your diminished capacity, you're still responsible, right?
01:05:47
Speaker
Yeah. um it There's nothing, I feel like it's pretty safe to say that there's nothing, ah there's no case that's ever going to be a situation where someone was shot 45 times that you're going to successfully mount a self-defense defense to get yourself out of a murder charge, right?
01:06:15
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like I've seen these types of cases mitigated where
01:06:22
Speaker
in order for him to like fully mount a self-defense argument, I think you're at a loss from the jump with the 45 gunshots. And I understand like some of those are also postmortem, but i don't think 45 gunshots in the amount of time it takes to reload a five shot revolver tie into self-defense.
01:06:41
Speaker
Not to mention, the post-mortem shots are just, like, it's overkill. It is overkill. And...
Trial and Conviction
01:06:48
Speaker
he Most of the time in self-defense cases, there's not going to be that overkill, right? And my initial response was, for one thing, what he's saying, without more context, it doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying that it's not true. I just, I'm not really sure why Drew would have an opinion about how his girlfriend's parents treated him.
01:07:15
Speaker
well So the trial testimony tends to indicate that Drew was jealous of the fact that essentially Freddie was this asshole addict who had done something to their daughter and they were still letting him stay in this cabin.
01:07:28
Speaker
I think it was more they wanted him out of their house and this was a way to start that process. Oh, so you think it's possible that that could be the case. because to after So after you take into consideration he was basically getting rehab help for alcohol abuse or whatever. yeah He's released. I feel like the parents were like, yeah, we don't want you to come back to the house.
01:07:52
Speaker
Right. and then his friend, being a genuine friend, Drew being a a genuine friend of Freddy's, said, hey, man, I'll go hang out with you.
01:08:05
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Now, they I'm a little confused by the alcohol.
01:08:16
Speaker
that doesn't seem That doesn't seem like a solid attempt to remain clean. No, it doesn't. and the other thing I wondered was, is he minimizing the substances they were abusing in this testimony?
01:08:29
Speaker
Well, see, and to me, i would believe more so than anything that they both got, like, really, really drunk. Yeah. And it resulted from that as opposed to, like, a conflict.
01:08:45
Speaker
I would believe that, too. Yeah. And i would still say that he was guilty of murder, right? Yeah. Essentially, two of the doctors come out and say that, like, this could be self-defense. The other two...
01:09:00
Speaker
they come out and say that like, yeah, this guy has no respect for authority. he probably has a personality disorder. He has all sorts of things wrong with him, but he's still guilty of killing this person. Right. And it's, I mean, even if something starts as self-defense, like that would be a situation where like Drew's like got a bandage on his shoulder, like going to the hospital, like, yeah.
01:09:23
Speaker
yeah That's a self-defense shot right there. um This, you know, dragging the body and hiding the gun. And misdirecting the the girlfriend and all the phone calls.
01:09:38
Speaker
ah Right. And so none of that says self-defense, right? In the self-defense case, there's a conflict that is resolved usually by somebody using deadly force against somebody, whether it kills them or not, and then immediately ah involving authorities. Yep.
01:10:00
Speaker
Right. That's self-defense. This is not that. And always have trouble when like negative statements are made about the victim. I mean, these weren't that negative. I guess they ultimately came back on Freddie more so than anything, but it's strange what even the story is. Right. Yeah. and essentially,
01:10:30
Speaker
to me, none of this really matters um as far determining, mean, it matters to the extent that, you know, Drew died and Freddie killed him. But as far as like the legal aspect of this, to me, nothing that's being testified to believe it or not, like whether, which side you take, it doesn't matter because the result is the same. It's never going to end up being a straight up self-defense case where this guy walks out of court free. Right. Yeah.
01:11:00
Speaker
if There's just too much to it. And it's really sad, actually, um that this happened, right? Oh, absolutely. And you don't hear very much. Like, i've never heard I had never heard of this case but before we got ready to record this.
01:11:18
Speaker
And there was some something that led Freddie... to do this, right? And it's going to be one of the traditional motives.
01:11:35
Speaker
think Yeah. Perhaps a combination of them, right? I feel like a lot of the post-mortem and the overkill is going to be sort of vengeful, it like revenge motivated.
01:11:48
Speaker
But, you know, we don't really know leading up to that point, I imagine his friend, now his friend had a.20. Yeah, he was also drunk, yeah.
01:11:59
Speaker
And so I believe that in a lot of states it's.08, and so.20 is actually a little more than double the legal limit to drive, right? Yeah.
01:12:12
Speaker
Okay, and so because he had that much alcohol in his system, I don't feel like it's going to be a situation where it Like he was irritated at Freddie for drinking after he had just gotten out of his, <unk> ray I don't even know what he was doing. It was just a couple of days. So it wasn't like a full rehab, but he was trying to get some help for his substance abuse. Right.
01:12:40
Speaker
And so it's not going to be like Drew was saying, don't drink. Right. i don't think. Because I'm imagining this to be a situation where he's gotten out. Something led him to be in the hospital to begin with.
01:12:57
Speaker
we don't get a lot of that information. assume that his friend was trying to keep him company while he continued the detox, which none of that happened, right? not he There was no detoxing happening at the cabin. and But it was supposed to be like a little bit of a getaway.
01:13:15
Speaker
And so it doesn't seem like he was, ah Drew would have been nagging Freddie any way. Like, as far as, like, don't be doing drugs, don't be drinking alcohol, because he was partaking himself.
01:13:28
Speaker
And, you know, there's always a little bit of truth to the stories. I mean, yeah something came up, right? Yeah. It doesn't really make sense for the whole, like, get up, I'm going to kill you thing. Like, typically, you don't put yourself into a position where you're going to be with somebody that's going to act like this. Because this isn't a boyfriend-girlfriend situation. This is two guys, right? Yeah.
01:13:57
Speaker
And they're together on a vacation or a staycation. i mean, it was a little bit far away from where they live, but they're on a vacation. And so they're there completely voluntarily. i mean, i don't know that they had anywhere else to be, but but you see what I'm saying? Like, it's an odd...
01:14:15
Speaker
set up for this like heinous murder because at any point in time they could go back to their normal lives and not be at that cabin together anymore if it truly was a conflict that was going to lead to self-defense. Now I don't think he planned to kill him like when they set out to go to the cabin.
01:14:35
Speaker
I think that this guy was just out of control and he was an asshole. Well, i would I tend to agree with that. um For the procedural history of this case, just so like people have that, that means like what happened overall.
01:14:50
Speaker
A warrant is issued June 30th, 2006, so shortly after he is hospitalized. Freddie is arrested for the murder of Drew. um On the 11th of September 2006, so a couple months later, Wilkes County and panels of grand jury, they return a true bill of indictment charging Freddie with Drew's murder.
01:15:13
Speaker
And they charge him as a first-degree murder. On May 11, 2007, so the following year, the defendant's attorneys, they file a notice indicating that Freddie is going to assert the off defenses of voluntary intoxication, self-defense, and diminished capacity.
01:15:31
Speaker
A couple months later, the state moves that Freddie be committed to Dorothea Dix for an evaluation concerning the validity of these defenses, which is where we get these doctors that come in and are talking to him. The charge comes back around and Freddie goes on trial in Wilkes County Superior Court in February 2008.
01:15:51
Speaker
But that trial ends up ending prior to the completion of selecting the jury because one of the prosecutors has a prolonged illness. it It comes back around for a second trial, and they're going to impenal a jury in July of 2008 in the criminal session of Wilkes County Superior Court.
01:16:10
Speaker
After the completion of the jury selection, the participants learn, so the prosecutor, the defendant, and the judge, they learn that a courthouse employee has spoken to one of the jurors.
01:16:23
Speaker
In fact, it's a ah female custodian has spoken to one of the jurors. And what she tells them is that the case should have gone to plea bargain.
01:16:37
Speaker
That leads Judge Gregory, who's the second judge on this case, Judge Fry had it for the first mistrial. Judge Gregory has it in July, and he declares a mistrial.
01:16:48
Speaker
So in August 2008, the trial court grants the defendant's request to change venues, and he transfers the case out of Wilkes County over to Ashe County.
01:16:59
Speaker
Comes back on time ah for for a third time. It comes back on trial. ah So it's on the trial calendar for October 2008 session. On November 13th of 2008, the jury comes back with a verdict, and they convict the defendant,
01:17:16
Speaker
A first-degree murder on the basis of malice, premeditation, and deliberation. As a result of that verdict, the court sentences the defendant to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
01:17:28
Speaker
um And the defendant is appealing here. Basically, what we come into in terms of legal analysis is... None of this works, by the way.
01:17:39
Speaker
it's There's some evidence that ah the defendant believes mattered. There's a very technical jury instruction on diminished capacity that the trial court denies.
01:17:52
Speaker
um But ultimately, the North Carolina Court of Appeals, um they end up affirming this conviction. And as far as I can tell, ah they do not...
01:18:07
Speaker
go any further with this case. Right. And I just want to point out, this is one of the cases. So for the most part, um this is a murder case.
01:18:18
Speaker
And when it goes up for appeal, and I wanted to see, I believe that at the outset,
01:18:29
Speaker
The defense taking it to appeal, and the reason for this is because this is a young man being sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, right? yeah um And I think that they presented it as, we don't have anything specific.
01:18:49
Speaker
However, we would like for the higher court to review it for any error. Yeah, they they mentioned a couple pieces of evidence in some of the testimony on but ah like that the, I think it was one of the special agents from the SBI. um They basically, they brought up a couple of things that came out at trial. But for the most part, this was a very technical appeal. Like, please review this de novo.
01:19:16
Speaker
These are the three reasons we think so. And if you find anything else, that's cool too. Right. And so that's always been fascinating to me. i Now, you may ah you may know differently. And granted, I ah haven't gone on a like deep search for this or anything.
01:19:33
Speaker
But I have never come across a case where the court has actually found anything in one of these endeavors. Yeah.
01:19:43
Speaker
Like, where youre are you are you saying like the appeal court states like, look, we don't agree with what you brought it here for. But de novo review, we indicate this one thing.
01:19:56
Speaker
Well, I'm saying that, like, so the conclusion of this case is that the. the Court states this, thus, for the reasons set forth above, we conclude that the defendant received a fair trial that was free from prejudicial error.
01:20:10
Speaker
As a result, defendant's conviction and the trial court's judgment should remain undisturbed. Which means, like, they they didn't really have to address um anything that was...
01:20:23
Speaker
overly specific. Like they didn't say at trial, this evidence was ah admitted over our objection and we want to know what the court thinks about that or something to that effect, right? Yeah.
01:20:35
Speaker
They didn't present anything like that. And there's a lot of cases... Now, they have to be pretty serious cases most of the time because basically what the court does the appeals court takes the entire file, the the record on appeal.
01:20:50
Speaker
Both sides have agreed to what it does. They look at all of it and they say, you know, yes, this was fair. There was no error. And I've never come across a case where I've seen in that situation where it's not specifically pointed to the appeals court saying, oh, there's an error here.
01:21:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Every once in a while, you'll see something. Most of them don't impact the fair trial, so they're not considered prejudicial errors.
01:21:21
Speaker
i it's It's rare. it is if If it's happened, I probably missed it. um I have not seen it in a murder case that I've reviewed. I have seen a couple of cases where something technical has happened, like...
01:21:35
Speaker
There was a case where the appellate courts caught a date of service on a DVPO violation where the defendant had been convicted of a whole stack of felonies.
01:21:49
Speaker
And they pointed out that like, The court aired, like the trial court aired in this one technical, ah like, was it this day or this day kind of thing. And it did affect, it was weird because like, I think though i think it said there were 62 convictions and it affected 18 of them.
01:22:12
Speaker
Oh, holy cow. But it didn't really affect the sentence because the sentence had been... um So when it got to sentencing, they had consolidated for sentencing purposes the conviction. course, yeah. So when you back out 18 from 62 violations, it didn't really change it. And it wasn't... but I want to say by the time I read that, like so much time had passed that the defendant had actually completed the sentence.
01:22:36
Speaker
That happens. ah Yeah, that definitely happens. um And it's more for it's more for making a an opinion that somebody in the future will be able to use, right? It it really is. it's like it' it's It's really like clarification of some kind of issue. Right. And so I found this case to be very interesting, and it was a...
01:23:02
Speaker
it was a stab at a diminished capacity type of defense that obviously didn't work out. I don't feel like it would have mattered either way. And, you know, a young man still said, I guess he still sits in prison. Yeah. He's still in prison. Yeah. He's so he's, I checked that like right as we got onto record. I was like, I should probably know that.
01:23:24
Speaker
Um, He has like a number of infractions and stuff, and he is still in prison um with a life sentence. They may come back to this one, because I've seen this happen, and do like a 30-year review on it, but it won't be anytime soon.
01:23:38
Speaker
And I don't think there's going to be any difference. No. that There's some thresholds that happen, right? Which, what were we talking about semi-recently? Something about...
01:23:52
Speaker
Oh, it was the Menendez brothers, the 26-year thing or the 26-year-old thing. um i don't know that it meets any of those types of thresholds as far as like you know the age just keeps getting older and older for capacity to be sentenced to life in prison. Yeah.
01:24:10
Speaker
Quite frankly, i don't see anything about this case that could that is unfair. um it it sucks. All of it sucks ah leading up to it and afterwards.
01:24:21
Speaker
But there's nothing you know patently unfair here. It's and really difficult to offer a ah good plea on a case where there's 45 gunshot wounds on a victim who...
01:24:32
Speaker
you're 50 50 that the guys either maybe provoked his friend or maybe was completely innocent. innocent And like, you can't tell, but because the the only person left alive to tell you that story is not really reliable and is accused of this, in my opinion, very heinous murder.
01:24:51
Speaker
Correct. And to in my opinion, like the only way this was going to end was with him going to jail for the rest of his life because, That's the appropriate punishment for this situation.
Case Complexity and Reflections
01:25:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:25:06
Speaker
And for anybody else who was found themselves on the non-barrel end of this situation. Yeah. Having pulled the trigger, I guess, is what I mean. Yeah. I just, you know, I thought it would be an interesting case to talk about from the perspective of, like, how the law works and how cases play out in court.
01:25:26
Speaker
This all takes place, I think, by the time we get this appeal that we kind of were pulling different things from. It's like 2011. But my point was, like, this event happens midway through 2006. He's had multiple trials by the time he's convicted in 2008. Right, but just sort of.
01:25:43
Speaker
Well, right. He's had multiple trials. there was no vert There was no mistrial or anything. Well, no, there wasn't there was a mistrial. There was mistrial, but the mistrial takes place really early.
01:25:53
Speaker
Like during jury selection. Yeah, like by the time but jury selection is wrapping up. but And the first one was a prosecutor's illness. And so it's not like there were like these this breathtaking, is he going to be convicted moments, right?
01:26:10
Speaker
Right. which is typical, like that can happen in mistrials, right? We talked earlier, like, you know, Karen Reed had a mistrial and it was after a trial played all the way out and the jury Deliberated.
01:26:27
Speaker
Right. And that's a completely different situation than in here when you've got a prosecutor not being able to continue on with the case. And my understanding is like, you know, it was a cabin in the woods. And so Welts County is more rural. Right. Yes.
01:26:42
Speaker
You know, I don't know that there were like extra prosecutors to just take over the case. That's usually what would happen in the event that a prosecutor was sick. Right. Yeah. somebody else would pick up the case. And for whatever reason, that didn't happen. And it's also a small area. And so it was a big deal that the custodian made a comment yeah about it should have gone to, which i mean, yeah, it should have gone to plea, but I imagine, you know, there's a lot of dynamics that have absolutely nothing to do with the case that goes into why it continues on to trial. Right. yeah The, the defense attorney was attempting to, you
01:27:21
Speaker
I don't really know what the outcome, the desired outcome would have been because there was no way this guy was going to be walking free, right? i didn't think so. I mean, like, there is a possibility that a case like this could go that way. I think the number of gunshots are preventing that from being a possibility.
01:27:38
Speaker
Yeah, I don't see him going free regardless. but i feel like something's going to happen. Like, he's either going to be getting help or he's going to be in jail. Yeah, because I i think...
01:27:51
Speaker
There might have been more of a case for like an NGRI here um based on like what they were presenting, but for some reason they don't go that route. Maybe that's because of something that the doctors that were on their side said.
01:28:03
Speaker
Maybe that's the angle they could have been taking there. Like the doctors had said, look, this is not an NGRI or not guilty by reason of insanity. So they had to go this route in order to give them a defense.
01:28:14
Speaker
Maybe the prosecutors didn't bring forth a really good plea deal because of those 45 gunshot wounds. maybe the only plea deal they could bring to him was life in prison without the possibility of parole. And at that point, you have nothing to lose by going to trial.
01:28:30
Speaker
yeah Yeah. But a lot of a lot of those cases are pleaded out. And it's interesting. I would love to know what the custodian's point of view was. i presume. Now, this is a situation where, like, basically nobody involved lived in that county.
01:28:46
Speaker
Yeah. And so the county is having to take on and use all of the resources. That was another thing I found interesting about it. Yeah. And, you know, it does eventually get, i I imagine it was transferred because like they had run out of money in their budget. I don't know how many murder trials Wilkes County has, but I'm going guess it's probably not a lot.
01:29:06
Speaker
Well, they it was actually on the defendant's motion. They said that the, the, That's what I mean though. Publicity had been like causing issues for them. So essentially they wanted like the, the trial to, to be moved to preserve fairness for the defendant.
01:29:25
Speaker
And quite frankly, I don't know that Ash County would have been, I mean, it's, I don't have a problem with it being moved. I i honestly feel like justice should be pretty consistent. Right. yeah But I do see where a County that, you know,
01:29:41
Speaker
when you've got a situation like this and you think about that, you think about the fact nobody lived there, right? They were all just visiting a cabin and the people who own the cabin weren't really involved. Yeah.
01:29:54
Speaker
And then they're suddenly dealing with this garbage. Yeah. It's, I mean, honestly, it's a really awful case um in that respect. And like the, the residents of a place that has nothing to do with it, having to bear to, you know, fix it all is,
01:30:12
Speaker
Well, yeah, because it's their tax dollars, right? I mean, and the other thing is, this is one of the cases that i feel like that Freddie McDowell, in his right mind, now I say that, and when I say not in his right mind, I mean, not like crazy, but like angered or intoxicated or whatever.
01:30:32
Speaker
I feel like he would take this back in a second. Oh, yeah, I think so. and But then again, I also feel like it could happen again in a second. Because he's that, to me, everything that's said about him, he portrays that type of volatility, which makes him like an asshole killer, right? Yeah.
01:30:52
Speaker
It's somebody that kills somebody because they didn't get along with them. And, you know, in civilized society, a lot of people don't get along and you don't kill them because of it. And do you remember when you were, um well, I don't know, when I was a kid, sometimes my very best friends, like,
01:31:10
Speaker
We'd have sleepovers and then like, they'd want to do like another night. And then like, sometimes it would happen and sometimes it wouldn't, but like usually after that second night, like you didn't want to be around that person again for like a really long time. Right. yeah Because like you would just get tired of one another and I imagine something to that effect happening here, which it obviously I'm talking about when I was a child. So it would have a whole lot more like grown up characteristics, like drinking alcohol, possibly, you know, taking pills or doing some sort of drugs and, and guns. Right.
01:31:49
Speaker
That's the other thing. If there were no guns here, I don't think this would have happened. Well, obviously it wouldn't have been like 45 gunshots. Well, right. Obviously. Yeah. No. And,
01:32:00
Speaker
I would love to know what the real actual story is, because even what he told, it doesn't line up with like the forensic evidence, right? I agree with you there. i like yeah We were talking about this kind of off mic about this case, and like I don't know what it would have been. i can imagine a number of different scenarios that could end this way,
01:32:20
Speaker
but Like, none of them really make sense for me for this to be, like, i don't know how you get to the point that you're that angry with somebody. And i I think if it's not just unhinged and kind of random, I think it's got to be some kind of jealousy issue. Yeah, it's less money or revenge, one of and And sometimes it's like a couple of those together.
01:32:47
Speaker
Correct. Right. And there can be all kinds of ends and outs that go along with those theories, right? Yeah. As far as you know, whatever's happening, but it would be interesting to know what it was. And I stand by the fact that I doubt very seriously.
01:33:04
Speaker
it was anything other than just lashing out, not getting along, ah for whatever reason, right. Whatever that deeper reason is, I feel like it, it wasn't worth,
01:33:17
Speaker
drew dying and sadly you know it wasn't worth freddie going to prison for the rest of his life whatever the conflict was however that's where it ended right yeah and in those types of cases there's really not much you can do about it and they did i feel like he did get a ah thorough defense it's just sometimes there is nothing really to defend to any extent that's going to lessen your punishment yeah
01:33:48
Speaker
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01:35:12
Speaker
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