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Season Six: Another Plus: The "Slasher" takes an exit
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Today’s episode is about a serial killer who could be more prolific than we realize.
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Transcript
Listener Discretion Advised
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
The Story of Carl Watts
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:01:00
Speaker
So where we left off last episode, we were talking about Carl Watts, who is going by Coral Watts, but that's ah Carl Eugene Watts, who, in my opinion, is a really interesting serial killer, although we're not quite to the serial killer part yet.
00:01:22
Speaker
He's interesting because of like what we kind of come to know about him I always find it so fascinating when these killers are, and don't want to say missed, but they go on ah committing crimes for what may be a pretty long amount of time.
Impact of Racial Bias on Profiling
00:01:42
Speaker
um ah particularly in the 70s and the eighty s when like profiling was becoming more public and and we were we knew what the FBI was working on and had started in the early early seventy s And i I always find it fascinating when someone who is African-American, alleged to be a pretty prolific serial killer, sort of skates under the radar.
00:02:05
Speaker
and like, people don't talk about him because I wonder if the early FBI efforts were, you know, sort of hoodwinked a little bit by by what might be racism or confirmation bias because of
Juvenile vs. Adult Killers
00:02:19
Speaker
what's going on. Where we kind of left off, he was starting to be accused out and out of murderers.
00:02:26
Speaker
I've noticed over the years that like there's a chance he killed when he was slightly younger. i always wonder about that because I never think of, and correct me if I'm wrong, I never think of um juvenile killers being as sophisticated as the same killer when they're 30 or 35. Well, I wouldn't say that it never happens, i but I would say that most of the time,
00:02:54
Speaker
under normal circumstances, as normal as circumstances when you're talking about a killer can be, it is unlikely for a young-ish or juvenile ah killer, or a if you look back on a you know a middle-aged serial killer, it is unlikely that those crimes are going to be the same.
Early Crimes and Accusations
00:03:19
Speaker
yeah i just I don't see the capacity there for for children, right? Or for juveniles or yeah even youngish adults. I feel like that has to be developed. I am not saying that there's not a possibility that you know there's someone out there like that that could have had you know the same consistent type of killing, but I think that it would be the exception as opposed to the rule.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, think You know, and I'm on the same, I'm straddling the same kind of fence there. With Carl Watts, I've seen this reference on paper a number of times that I've never really seen it backed up, so to speak, I guess, or so to think, that he potentially had killed someone in 1968.
00:04:08
Speaker
sixty eve And where we are in his timeline, we're kind of in the early seventy s i I look at him and there's a couple of things that happen um that we'll talk about in terms of like the profile, like putting the profile together.
1969 Assault Incident
00:04:24
Speaker
ah
00:04:27
Speaker
I don't think a lot of killers go backwards. I think circumstances could cause that to happen, but we know that he committed this assault at the apartment.
00:04:38
Speaker
We have a date. We have a time. It's ah June 29th, 1969. And I've heard people say, you know, 14, 15 year old, uh, Carl Watts was probably a killer, but then why would he go back to not completing the action? And he was also pretty engaged in, uh,
00:04:57
Speaker
Some other behaviors that make me think that he was still early in his killing spree, so to speak. Well, I've thought, ah especially, I guess, he would have been, what, 14 or 15? in 1968. thought...
00:05:12
Speaker
yeah and nineteen sixty eight i've thought Okay, so in reference to that type of situation, if it was a bad experience, if they hadn't completely lost all of their humanity and remorse, ah there could be some detouring factors, right? Yeah. as far But typically, I would say that that, it I don't think that that is what is typical, because, you know, killing somebody...
00:05:42
Speaker
I don't know, i mean, especially these types of killers, I don't know that there are
Watts' Background and Mental Health
00:05:48
Speaker
redeemable qualities. I feel like they sort of, if they had had that to begin with, they wouldn't have killed to begin with, right? Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
So, ah but I do think that... under the circumstances, you are more malleable, malleable, flexible. You're more ah apt to, you know, kill somebody and feel bad about it and then take it back.
00:06:11
Speaker
I just, I don't think that's going to be the case very often. No, I don't think it is either. and that's, that's kind of how we like sort of keep ending up, uh, talking about these guys and like, and like wondering what was going on with them. Cause I think that we, I think we as people, humans and the population at large are missing a number of things when it comes to, to serial killers with Carl Watts.
00:06:39
Speaker
We almost see him turning his life around and going to college and like other things happening with him. I would say that, in terms of his, his life itself, he had a number of what looked to me like chances, like to kind of do that thing where you get some humanity and like, uh, ultimately aren't, I don't want to like, I don't want to make it seem like he's some kind of monster, but like anyone doing this type of thing has something wrong with them.
00:07:16
Speaker
No question. What I wanted to do was I'm going to pull from the profile and I'm going to go back in time just a little bit. We're in the early 70s, but I want to talk about how they profile some of ah the things that they said.
00:07:30
Speaker
um And again, this comes from this Radford University profile. At one point, these were considered to be not the greatest sources, but the truth is they're really good sources that have a lot of their sources like built into them. ah So you can double check things.
00:07:45
Speaker
And I wanted to go back to where he's released from the Lafayette Mental Clinic, and that's going to be November of 1969. of nineteen sixty nine This kid went in, according to the profile, which is a slightly different number than I've read in other sources, 10 times for different types of outpa outpatient treatment.
00:08:06
Speaker
And I can't find a reference to whether or not they mean he saw a therapist 10 times or 10 different times he went on little smaller regimens where he spoke to someone. um And I think that might be important because that 10 times takes us across 1969 up into 1972.
00:08:27
Speaker
And in 1972, we have Zenaida Tomes. And that's the first murder that they hang on Carl and they go, he did that.
00:08:39
Speaker
um This is September
Murder of Zenaida Tomes
00:08:42
Speaker
6, 1972. She's 20 years old She had 45 stab wounds when her body is found in a field in Taylor, Michigan.
00:08:54
Speaker
Now, Carl lived near here at the time. And according to a couple of sources, the rumor was always, it's Carl. um I read ah an article from The News Herald.
00:09:10
Speaker
And if you go to it, it's thenewsherald.com. It's from 2004.
00:09:15
Speaker
It's written by Jackie Harrison Martin and News Herald staff. And ah basically says, brother and sister are still seeking answers in brutal death. It says, the last time Jim Feliciano saw his sisters in Ada Tomes, she was wearing a miniskirt, which was all her age back in the nineteen seventy s She was dressed up for a night out on the town.
00:09:39
Speaker
That was the last time he saw her alive, and the next time he saw her, she was covered by a white sheet. Her blood-soaked party clothes had been removed and tagged as evidence. It was September of 1972, and the unthinkable was staring him in the face.
00:09:54
Speaker
Someone had murdered his sister. People had often described the 20-year-old as an exceptionally pretty girl, but there was no way to hide the more than 45 stab wounds that had been inflicted on her face, head, and other upper extremities.
00:10:10
Speaker
It's still painful for Feliciano to talk about how his sister was murdered, but he is doing so for what he believes is a very important reason, and that is to catch her
Family's Quest for Justice
00:10:19
Speaker
killer. The Feliciano family is united in hope that after more than 30 years, someone will come forward with information.
00:10:26
Speaker
What they went through back then devastated them. Despite the fact that so many years have passed, her brother remembers their last night together like it was yesterday. It was a Friday night and I was watching Gunsmoke, he said.
00:10:39
Speaker
It was dark outside and Zineda went to walk to a friend's house about a mile away. She said goodbye. The next day she didn't show up for work and it didn't take long before everyone was calling around and searching for her.
00:10:53
Speaker
Three days would pass before a knock came out the door from a uniformed officer. Family and friends had filled the house. They knew it was bad news. Feliciano and his father had to do something neither dreamed of.
00:11:06
Speaker
They had to identify Zaneda's body. At that time, you just had to walk into a room and they'd open up the drapes, said Feliciano. I was just 19. He said a good attempt was made to try to cover up all the stab wounds, but he couldn't help but notice all of the slash marks on her palms.
00:11:24
Speaker
Where it appeared, she must have tried to fight off her attacker. At this point in time, this article that I'm pulling from here is from 2004.
00:11:36
Speaker
And he says that Coral Eugene Watts, because Coral has changed his name from Coral to Coral, is brought to Michigan last month in 2004 to stand trial for the murder of a Ferndale woman.
00:11:51
Speaker
It has long been suspected by some police officials that Watts, who is believed to have killed at least 22 women in Michigan, also killed Zaneda. But Tom's sister, Lillian, is convinced that someone else murdered Zaneda.
00:12:06
Speaker
I don't know how you feel about these things when we're talking about stuff and family members interject and and point out other people. I bring it up here because we're in the middle of Carl Watts' profile and sort of call we're about to start Carl Watts' murders.
00:12:19
Speaker
And like we have like these interesting sort of dichotomies early. And we have someone that's about to say, i don't think he did it. And how long later was that?
00:12:30
Speaker
So this is 2004. A lot later. Yeah, when she goes missing is 1972.
00:12:40
Speaker
So you're 30 some years after the fact? 34 years? Her brother, ah it I guess, was a year younger than her. Do we have any idea how old her sister was? Lillian had just turned 18.
00:12:55
Speaker
Okay, so they are, I mean... Stair steps. 18, 19, and 20. I would say that there's probably... i would say whatever the sister has to say should probably be considered...
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and I think so too, because I think 18-year-olds close to their siblings like these kids seem to be. This is what she says. It's not long. She says Lillian was 18 at the time.
00:13:20
Speaker
She has her own theory about what had happened to her sister. She knows of abusive situations involving her sister and some male friends, and she's passed that information along to the Taylor Michigan police.
00:13:31
Speaker
I think somebody is still out there who did this. She said, I sure would like to know. i love my sister. That's never going to change. But my sister is gone. And that is never going to change either. Lillian said that she had to move on from grieving over Zaneda and find some peace.
00:13:45
Speaker
She said she's been able to do that by accepting the fact that Zaneda is in heaven. Whoever is responsible for killing her sister has had to live with it, and Lillian hopes that person has paid some dues.
00:13:56
Speaker
However, the family believes that a formal punishment is in order, and they are putting their best effort forward to make sure the person responsible gets it. Despite the fact that the case is 32 years old, that's back in 2004,
00:14:09
Speaker
Lillian said it deserves the attention of the Taylor Police Department and other law enforcement agencies.
Domestic Violence and Old Cases
00:14:14
Speaker
It's not just another case, she said. It's just as important as any other case. The state owes it to the family to find this person.
00:14:24
Speaker
i thought that was an interesting perspective. That must be infuriating. Well, I will say this. Um... Now, we don't have, I agree. i feel like it would be infuriating because she's not wrong. She's absolutely right.
00:14:41
Speaker
It's weird ah sometimes how these things play out, right? Yeah. As far as i mean, a murder is a murder is a murder, right?
00:14:52
Speaker
ah They all deserve the equal investigation and, ah you know, pursuit of justice, however they can get it, right? Except, like, it needs to be the right person, obviously.
00:15:04
Speaker
um i don't know, and maybe you do or you may not either. did She was, so she left walking to a friend's house and didn't show up to work for the next day.
00:15:19
Speaker
we don't, do we know if she showed up at the friend's house? um Do we know if she was killed where she was found? The story that we're told is that she disappears a along the way.
00:15:32
Speaker
Okay. So she she didn't make it there. Right. That's the story that we have publicly. They hold back some of the information on the timeline. I don't know why they do that. but think And here's here's what I would say about that.
00:15:44
Speaker
She was stabbed. She was stabbed. Yeah. Okay. And so she wasn't shot from a distance, right? ah Now, does it say if she was assaulted?
00:15:56
Speaker
Sexually assaulted? It does not say that. It just it it repeatedly mentions the.45 stab wounds. Okay. And so there's, to me, obviously, we need a lot more details. But right off the bat, unless there was some sort of...
00:16:14
Speaker
enclosed situation and what i mean by that is like somebody not walking uh down the street it could be just as uh it could be enclosed as much as like getting in a vehicle even yeah um unless there's something to that uh like where she's not just walking down the street i mean It's going to be somebody she knows because she's, I assume, and I presume that her sister feels, ah probably even knows, that her sister wasn't just going to be randomly in the proximity of being stabbed 42 times. It almost takes somebody that not only do you know, like, that you're not uncomfortable being in a place, you can be stabbed 42 times, right? Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
So that would generally mean that it's somebody that's in your space. And it and without again, without more information, it seems unlikely that a random guy that ends up being a serial killer is going to be responsible for this without you know substantially more ah things happening that I'm not necessarily sure happened here.
00:17:31
Speaker
42 stab wounds would cause a ton of bleeding, right? Yeah. And so there's a lot, I mean, there's a lot to think about there, but I definitely think that her sister's opinion would be vital.
Controversial Profiling Techniques
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think the opinion is vital. So remember, they're trying to get Carl done with school in 1973, and then they're trying to get him off to college.
00:17:57
Speaker
That's one of the things that threw me off here, because if he graduates college, next year that means he's still at home people are still kind of monitoring him in 1972 he would be 18 years old um now i've i've also seen people say that like it doesn't make sense that he did it because it contradicts what people believe is his known modus operandi meaning this girl's taken him from taylor which is outside of detroit and she's kind of murdered ah She's taken from Detroit out to Taylor and she's murdered out there.
00:18:30
Speaker
Whether that's 100% on par for an 18, 19 year old killer, I don't know about that. so she was taken. Well, she's in a different space.
00:18:43
Speaker
Okay, so her body wasn't found like between where she started where she was headed. It does not appear that way, no. and Okay, but that and that's different, right? We're going to make our way to July 1974.
00:18:57
Speaker
Carl has been going to Lafayette Mental Clinic. He's been getting some checkups. He is still having nightmares. He is still like scoring in some interesting places on his psychological evaluations.
00:19:11
Speaker
And they start to point out to him that they believe he might have some problems with his sexuality. um they specifically point out two things that are interesting to me.
00:19:24
Speaker
One of those is they believe he is misogynistic and that these strong impulses to beat up women are worth examining, although we don't get a lot of information about what they did to examine them.
00:19:36
Speaker
They also, at this time, say that Carl, in 1974, as a young black man in Michigan, is giving off hints of homosexuality.
00:19:48
Speaker
I don't even know what that means. But what I'm picturing is that either he's answering questions in a way that indicate he's potentially attracted to men or not attracted to women, or they're picking up on something that maybe is more of a stereotype than a reality.
00:20:06
Speaker
And I think, what year did you say that was? I would say um there was a ah lot of that type of thinking ah that was...
00:20:20
Speaker
homosexuality was like a go-to examination point. yeah It was to explain away issues that probably had nothing to do with it, right? Yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
But we know that now. I'm not saying that they were saying, like, let's explain this away. i think that it was um from a ah mental health standpoint, I think a lot of psychologists were using that to explore Like explaining away behavior that had nothing to do with it, probably.
00:20:53
Speaker
Right. And that's sort of where I land with this. um In July of 1974, he enrolls at Western Michigan University.
Watts at Western Michigan University
00:21:02
Speaker
He's accepted under a grant program for minority students, and he was said that he was going to be studying engineering and working in the university cafeteria.
00:21:11
Speaker
um He slacks off in in class, and according to at least one report, he spent a lot of time goofing off and playing ping pong. According to psychological reports from the time, it was observed that he intensely hated females even more than before.
00:21:28
Speaker
So in this you know time that he registers and starts to go to college, a young woman named Nadine... Jean Odell goes missing in Inkster, Michigan.
00:21:42
Speaker
This is the little girl that was on the way on August 16th, 1974. Inkster, for those of you who don't know, it is a suburb of Detroit on the west side.
00:21:55
Speaker
Inkster itself is probably about 15 miles from downtown center in Detroit. ah She was supposed to be going to babysit at her boyfriend's house. She's 16 years old. Her body has never been found.
00:22:07
Speaker
No one witnessed what is presumed to have been her abduction. ah And to this day, we do not know what happened to her. We put her in this pile oh maybe Carl Watts.
00:22:22
Speaker
um ah And again... I have questions about this. i mention it here because if you read any of the books on Carl Watts or CNN and the media on him, it comes up.
00:22:34
Speaker
But what we do know for sure is that October 11th, 1974, the Western Michigan University campus police end up arresting him and detaining him for stealing plywood on the Western Michigan campus.
00:22:52
Speaker
Which is such a far cry. Like, like why would you steal plywood? don't know. no I don't know. It doesn't really seem like a killer would do that. Right.
00:23:03
Speaker
That's like a dumb way to get caught. But, of course, I say that, and then it wasn't, right? I mean, he he got arrested for the plywood. Right. ah But they don't press charges. They let him Two weeks later, on October 25, 1974...
Unexpected Attack Outcome
00:23:21
Speaker
Carl watches something really weird. He knocks on a 23-year-old woman's apartment door at 1045 in the morning. He calls out for Charles, which is the name of one of his siblings, and this young lady unlocks the door while the door is still chained.
00:23:39
Speaker
She responds that, like, there's no one here named Charles, but would you like to leave a note? And I don't know why she does this, but he undoes the, she undoes the chain lock and she goes to get some paper.
00:23:52
Speaker
And at this point, Carl attacks this young woman. He chokes her into unconsciousness, gets on top of her, and then he suddenly leaves when she passes out.
00:24:06
Speaker
Now, in my mind, if he's doing this, I think it's unlikely that he is responsible for the Sinita tomes or tomos, like in September of 1972.
00:24:24
Speaker
Right. And so, you know, just to kind of sum up, if you'll remember, you know, the the first thing, the reason he was getting the help, the outpatient help to begin with was because he he punched one of his customers on his newspaper route in the face. And he said, I just want to beat somebody up. Did he go up and knock on her door?
00:24:42
Speaker
do we know? i It seems sort of something like that, right? it was and he was delivering her paper, I believe. Yeah. Right, and so i don't know if um I don't know if she was outside or if he went up to the front door and knocked on it, which would be very close. Yeah, knocked on the door. I'm confirming Okay, so you know that's pretty much exactly what just happened. I feel like maybe when you and I were talking off recording, i was like, why would he need to leave a note for somebody that didn't live there? Yep.
00:25:10
Speaker
Which is weird, but it is the same type of thing. But so so far, you've got ah the one situation where, i mean, I'm not – I don't have any impression from anything that I've seen that he didn't do the paper route punch, right?
00:25:26
Speaker
No, we're pretty sure it's him. Okay. So he walks up to the door, punches somebody in the face, and then he steals plywood. And then he walks up to another young lady's apartment door, asks for Charles.
00:25:39
Speaker
And then for some reason she says, do you want to leave a note? And opens the door. And then he chokes her out and leaves her there. Right. Okay. so those are the things that I guess we know that he did. Right.
00:25:55
Speaker
They seem confirmed, like all in all, um they're about to escalate, but they have not yet escalated. Okay. And like, I've tried to put myself in the position of people doing things like this, like try to think like this kind of empathetic approach is probably horrible for people to, to go with, but like,
00:26:16
Speaker
I could almost see some of these previous killings coming to fruition because like whatever he was doing in the middle of it all, he like got distracted by himself.
00:26:27
Speaker
And like, so he's not really engaged in any kind of sexual assault, but like he's angry So if there's a blind rage going on and he leaves her here without killing her, I don't know what would distract himself. It could be as simple as someone calling her name or knocking on the door or kids running by or ah vehicle outside. like There's a number of things that can make him stop.
00:26:55
Speaker
I just have trouble going back in time to figure out like what would have cost him to have completed the other murders. Well, right. Plus, you have to think about the – so my my main point is the dynamic here. Right. Going up to somebody's house and going in or standing at the door or whatever and and committing a crime is much, much different than abducting someone. Right. Or –
00:27:21
Speaker
killing them out where they're at whatever's happening it's not like so so you've actually got you know the punch in the face was the very first thing there's two murders that he's suspected of or however they're disposed of but he's linked to them just i think by area pretty much and There may be other stuff. I'm not sure.
00:27:44
Speaker
but And then you've got another one right after ah he steals the plywood where he again goes up to the the door, right? Yeah. Those are very different types of crimes. Well, we have ah we have a new crime that happens within a week, and it's yet again different but similar.
Gloria Steele's Murder
00:28:04
Speaker
This is October 70th. This is October 30th, 1974. this is october thirtieth nineteen seventy four Gloria S. Steele is 20 years old. She's a Western Michigan University student.
00:28:17
Speaker
There's one witness in this case who sees black man, quote, searching for Charles, end quote, strolling through and apartment complex.
00:28:30
Speaker
This witness says that when Carl Watts saw her, he grabbed her, pushed her door open, and dragged her inside of her apartment. but her phone started to ring as the two were fighting.
00:28:43
Speaker
So she knocked the phone off the hook and she screamed for help. She was able to spot the man getting into a tan Pontiac Grand Prix as she stood up and peered out the window after he ran.
00:28:58
Speaker
The police end up assembling a lineup and this woman, Diane Williams is her name, and the 23 year old from the other attack,
00:29:09
Speaker
they recognize Carl Watts and Carl Watts has just been known to the police in the last several weeks because he had been apprehended stealing plywood for the campus of Western Michigan university.
00:29:23
Speaker
So for these two cases, and this is the young woman who woke, who he knocked out and then ran away, but she woke up after. And this apartment complex, uh,
00:29:35
Speaker
manager, Diane Williams, who's dragged into her apartment. He's charged in those cases with a assault and battery. While this is happening,
00:29:47
Speaker
Gloria Steele has been murdered on October 30th. it' It times really closely to this incident with the apartment complex manager.
00:30:01
Speaker
When Gloria Steele is murdered, she's stabbed 33 times in the chest with a wooden carving tool, and her windpipe was crushed. um So in her case, ah which have I kind of messed up the dates here, sorry. um Her case is October 30th. Diane Williams is November 12th.
00:30:26
Speaker
In both of these cases, there was a man who was walking up and down the staircases in the apartments who said that they were, quote, looking for Charles. So we have now three separate witnesses saying this.
00:30:42
Speaker
the police could not complete the investigation into Gloria steel because the person who discovered their body had moved her and move the evidence in an attempt to resuscitate her and contaminated the crime scene in a way that they could no longer, investigate.
00:31:01
Speaker
Right. Which is, I mean, in my opinion, now that would be an insane cop out, right? Yes. I do want to point out though, ah and ah geographically, how close are um the 20-year-old that got choked out, ah Gloria Steele, who was murdered, and the apartment manager? Do you know? They're very close.
00:31:27
Speaker
Okay. You just, ah when you said it, it was interesting. You mixed up the dates, right? Yeah, i did. Okay. And I wondered if there's some sort of ah
00:31:44
Speaker
Let's see, trans transposing notes. And i wonder the Charles thing is real on all of them. oh I tried to figure out if there were two different police departments going on here.
00:31:57
Speaker
i i ah Let me rephrase that. I know that there's two different police departments here. I tried to figure out if there were two different divisions within Detroit that would be working that western side over there.
00:32:12
Speaker
um and Like, one is kind of west and one's kind of south. I wondered if, like, maybe there was something going on where they didn't catch up very quickly or if that was... possible, like what you're saying, which is maybe it's not all of them. I do know but Charles thing comes up with the apartment complex where Diane Williams assaulted. She survived.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yeah. And I do know that the 23 year old woman that he choked out who also survived had the Charles story completely separately. And I know those to be relatively accurate because I was able to find police reports on those.
00:32:51
Speaker
The first one is October 25th. The second one is November 12th. The one I can't confirm is Gloria Steele, who was murdered by being stabbed 33
Watts' Mental Health Claims
00:33:04
Speaker
times. Right. And then also had her windpipe crushed.
00:33:10
Speaker
Right. Okay. So and'm I'm just saying that in the event that was an error, right? Yeah. Because... it's very so It does make it very similar, right? It does, yeah.
00:33:23
Speaker
Except that the two live witnesses having that be a factor, and I believe there's witnesses that identify him, ultimately. They do.
00:33:35
Speaker
I'm not so sure that it's, I don't feel like it's out of the realm of possibilities that ah the The witness who was a woman who saw a black man walk up the staircase and sit said he was looking for Charles. That's what's kind of denoted there with Gloria still. Yes.
00:33:53
Speaker
Okay. I think it's possible that i I'm not entirely sure that happened. I'm not either. I'm pointing it out that like there's a possibility some of this is screwed up.
00:34:07
Speaker
Well, right. And it would be a very, I feel like it would be a very easy mistake to make. But if you think about it, ah the, I believe the stabbing of Gloria Steel 33 times, the crushing of her windpipe, you that's very similar. If we go back um to the 42 stabbings of Zenaida Tomes, right?
00:34:30
Speaker
yes Yes. Yes. 45 stab wounds on her. Yes. I'm sorry. 45. Yeah.
00:34:37
Speaker
and What's interesting about, well, let me finish 1974 and then I'll get to what's interesting about this. So they arrest them, they charge him with the assault and battery and detectives go after him for Gloria Steele's murder.
00:34:50
Speaker
He does end up admitting that he had been in the area where she lived, but he says that he did not kill her. Whether we believe on this, I don't know.
00:35:02
Speaker
This This is something that like kind of lingers out there, and I'll get to why in a second. He does up in ending, like right before Thanksgiving, he does end up getting arrested for the plywood that he had stolen.
00:35:15
Speaker
um They do end up releasing him on bond. So an investigator from the court ends up interviewing him on December the 6th.
00:35:30
Speaker
Now, this is not... ah police officer. This not a detective. This is someone who works for the courts. While going through that investigation, which I believe there was something problematic about the interrogation that was going on, and they couldn't use it later, Carl, now Coral, admits that he has attacked about 15 other young women. who were all described as then attractive and white. he
00:36:08
Speaker
demands a lawyer. He gets a lawyer. And he decides that it is now time to check into a hospital. So he checks into Kalamazoo Mental Hospital.
00:36:23
Speaker
and A number of things happen to him here. It is alleged that he attempts to commit suicide. It is documented that he is diagnosed as having antisocial personality disorder.
00:36:39
Speaker
It is also documented that they move him out of Kalamazoo Mental Hospital and park him in the Center for Forensic Psychiatry in Michigan. And you don't really get there um for something simple.
00:36:54
Speaker
While that's going on on December 12th, the police end up serving a search warrant on Carl Watts' home. They do find wooden carving tools, but they don't find any other things, and they don't find the specific one that would tie him to Gloria Steele's murder.
00:37:12
Speaker
So he ends up pleading out in December to the theft of the the plywood. He gets to choose between staying in the forensic hospital.
00:37:26
Speaker
I think some places report that it was Kalamazoo Mental Hospital, but at that point it was the Center for Forensic Psychiatry um that he would be going to.
00:37:36
Speaker
either has to stay there or go to jail for 45 days, and he chooses to stay in the hospital. um He stays in the hospital.
00:37:47
Speaker
There, he's not he's not in jail at all, really. um It was described that he was able to shoot pool and play basketball. um There were a lot of doctors who came through ah to see the antisocial personality disorder diagnosis, and they really wanted to know more about him.
00:38:05
Speaker
um So there's quite a bit of documentation of his time there in December 1974. He tells them he doesn't believe in God. He doesn't believe in ESP. he hasn't heard any voices. He doesn't have delusions.
00:38:16
Speaker
There were no psychotic symptoms noticed or documented during the time. In fact, he was described as having his mental faculties intact and be quite intelligent. um But he's still described as being in a position where they believe he has antisocial personality disorder.
00:38:37
Speaker
He either tries to kill himself or tries to make the doctors think that he's going to kill himself, which I sort of alluded to. cuts a length of cord from a laundry bag, and he attempts to hang himself.
00:38:53
Speaker
A nurse sees him and cuts him down. And he was later released where he could ah go out into the world and work. He ends up with a job doing odd jobs around the church.
00:39:06
Speaker
So I'm pointing all of this out because i don't know that Gloria Steele got a lot of attention, but I do wonder if like that's how they link him like in their head to this sort of choking and stabbing set of circumstances that they're going to see a lot more of.
00:39:30
Speaker
He ends up being classified as being extremely dangerous, lacking in remorse for his crimes, being impetuous, careless, emotionally distant, and as potentially having a high likelihood of recidivism.
Release and Justice Concerns
00:39:50
Speaker
He ends up on trial for the assault and battery of the two women who survive. He's sentenced to a year in the county jail. And he's going to be released from ah they the county jail.
00:40:02
Speaker
He'll go back and forth between the county jail and the hospital quite a bit. um But by August 1976, he's just out in the world. um i Just for one second. I'm sorry. I meant to interject this earlier.
00:40:17
Speaker
um When you're talking about him being at the Forensic Psychiatry Center in Michigan. Yeah. There was a Dr. Benedict who said that Watts usually feels good after he beats up women. Yep.
00:40:35
Speaker
That's a very specific statement. Yep. It doesn't say that he feels good after he kills women. Right. Seems like that would have been explored, right?
00:40:46
Speaker
Yeah. And Dr. Benedict points out that like she believes he's fully competent to stand trial and has no mental illness. Right. Correct. yeah Right. Exactly. She's the one who ends up calling him hazardous and dangerous.
00:40:58
Speaker
um And he had stated to her that what he did to these women didn't bother him in the least.
00:41:06
Speaker
So here's what's interesting about him, which I said I would get to. know we're kind of in 1975 already by the time we're talking about all of this. But what's interesting about him is he's not sexually assaulting the women.
00:41:21
Speaker
So we're not going to have the obvious, now that we're 50 years later, we're not going to have the obvious DNA from a sexual assault. Right, but I always wonder about those types of cases. Why?
00:41:37
Speaker
Well, it seems like if it's not a ah sadist crime, right, a sexual sadist doing it. Not what we're aware of, yeah. Well, I mean, if they're not sexually assaulted, I just assume, it I could be completely wrong, I assume that they're not a sexual sadist.
00:41:54
Speaker
ah They're not sexually motivated. And that makes me think that they've got to be extraordinarily some like evil or mad or something, right?
00:42:06
Speaker
Because that ah the sexual motivation is very, very common yeah in you know a male killing a female— yeah And to have like murder after murder after murder and there's no sexual assault, I've never, i mean, I know that cases like that happen.
00:42:27
Speaker
I just have never been able to kind of figure out like why, right? Especially when it's a stranger. I mean, i can, I understand other types of situations, but when you're talking about a serial killer who doesn't like sexually assault their victims, what is it?
00:42:47
Speaker
Well, so we go through this period of time. i don't I don't know the answer to that question. Sure. No, yeah, it was rhetorical. um He's out of jail.
00:42:57
Speaker
He goes back to Inkster, Michigan. He moves in with his mother and his stepfather. he ends up hooking up with Dolores Howard, who is a friend that he's known his whole life. He's going to be 22 years old.
00:43:09
Speaker
And she gets pregnant. And she's going to end up having a healthy baby. um During... 1978, there's a period of time from June to October where five documented attacks on women in Detroit have very similar modus operandi and circumstances.
00:43:32
Speaker
The women would wake up to a man that had broken into their home, standing over them with his hands on their mouths, breasts, genitals, or necks.
00:43:44
Speaker
For some reason, we don't tie him to this time. So he ends up with a a child, but then splits up with her mom.
00:43:54
Speaker
He gets married, which is another weird thing for someone who hates women and is potentially ah burgeoning serial killer.
Marital Issues and Detroit Attacks
00:44:03
Speaker
um But Valeria Goodwill, his wife, claims that shortly after their marriage started, he would act odd.
00:44:11
Speaker
act oddly. He would move furniture around, he would use knives to chop up household plants, he would break things like candles, he melted candles into a table at one point, he would dump the trash all over the floor and never pick it up.
00:44:26
Speaker
He would also get up and leave after they had had sex or quote an intimate encounter and he would dis disappear disappear for several hours at a time.
00:44:38
Speaker
According to paperwork, their marriage only lasts for six months.
00:44:43
Speaker
um I'm just going to run through like this next series, and you and I will try and figure out like what they meant by all of this. So there's five women that are attacked and killed in Detroit over the course of a year by a perpetrator dubbed the Sunday morning slasher because all of the attacks take place on Sunday mornings around 4 o'clock in the morning.
00:45:01
Speaker
We have another series of potential attacks in Detroit where women are able to report that they wake up to a man standing over them with his hands on their mouths, breasts, or genitals.
00:45:13
Speaker
I don't know like if these are the same things because I can't imagine these women are able to report the hands on their mouths, breasts, genitals, or neck if they've been killed by this guy.
00:45:25
Speaker
So i think they're referring to 10 separate attacks. And I don't know that we have anything here like to put together. So it's kind of a black hole in time in terms of 1978. We do know that he has a daughter
00:45:45
Speaker
ah This is the daughter from his relationship with Dolores. She's going to get child support. And later in 1979, he's going to get remarried.
00:45:56
Speaker
So he splits up between the daughter's birth in February 1979 and is married again by August
00:46:06
Speaker
I don't know if any of these attacks that they attribute to being the Sunday morning slasher are what they're talking about here. um I'm going to throw out some other attacks that are like kind of thrown into this story.
00:46:20
Speaker
I don't have a lot of sources on these. um I've tried to look at the paperwork that is quoted in the books, evil eyes. I don't come to the same conclusions that that author comes to.
00:46:31
Speaker
uh, I'm going to name them and Meg and I are going talk about it and see what we think. On October 31st, 1979, so Halloween, Jean Klein is a 44-year-old reporter for the Detroit News.
00:46:44
Speaker
She walks home after a doctor's appointment and she gets attacked. She's approached in broad daylight. She's next to her home on a major suburban road and she ends up with 11 stab wounds.
00:46:57
Speaker
There is insufficient evidence left at the scene ah for the police to use to identify a suspect. Initially, they suspect Gene's husband, but they later end up ruling him out, and we'll get to why in a minute.
00:47:13
Speaker
Shirley Small is a 17-year-old high school student from Ann Arbor, Michigan. She's fatally stabbed twice in the heart outside of her home, April 20th, 1980. Glenda Richman, she's 26 years old when she is the victim of a comparable assault to Shirley Smalls assault on July 13th of 1980. This is in front of her summer residence up in Ann Arbor.
00:47:41
Speaker
There's a diner manager there. um but She's a diner manager there, but what they release about her is that she sustained 28 knife wounds to her chest.
00:47:53
Speaker
Both of these crime scenes, there's insufficient evidence to convict anyone. But the police described characteristics of ah what they think are Watts' crimes. And that's the multiple stab wounds to the chest.
00:48:11
Speaker
And ah the fact that there's no other evidence left at the scene. And I think what they're saying in the newspapers back then, without saying it, is that these look like sexual crimes with this knife, but there's no sexual element to identify a perpetrator.
00:48:28
Speaker
that And that's that's what they're linking to Carl Watts. Right, it's possible. um We don't have anything confirmed, though. At least we don't have anything confirmed, though, at least at this point, that he has actually stabbed anybody, right? not yet. Okay.
00:48:43
Speaker
Graduate student Rebecca Huff is 20 years old at the University of Michigan. She's found dead September 14, 1980, in front of her home, which is becoming like being close to their home or in their home is becoming to be a common thing there.
00:48:57
Speaker
She had suffered 50 stab wounds. And they state a couple of different ways here, including in Evil Eyes, this is the first homicide directly attributed to Carl Watts.
00:49:14
Speaker
We're going to keep going for a minute and come back to this. Now, following along with the profile, they throw some other things in here for us.
00:49:24
Speaker
August 1979, we left off in the profile with Valeria Goodwill and Carl being together. They have this marriage that kind of unravels where he would disappear while they're having sex.
00:49:39
Speaker
He'd been gone for hours. Right after. Right. So they'd have sex. He
Brutality Without Sexual Motive
00:49:44
Speaker
disappears. Right. And what is laid out in the profile is kind of what if this is the times they were having sex. So they're going to be together until May of 1980.
00:49:54
Speaker
What's happening in May of 1980 that's sort of interesting is September 21st, 1979. So we're going up to may of What's happening up to of so his marriage valeria that's interesting is we might be able to time out their sex lives from this.
00:50:15
Speaker
ah September 21st, 1979, the headless body of Malik Haddad, 32, is found in Allen Park, Michigan. Her head's never been recovered.
00:50:27
Speaker
October 8th, 1979, the body of Peggy Polkmara, who is 22 years old, is found strangled In the front yard of her boyfriend's neighbor in Detroit, Michigan, she's not been sexually assaulted or robbed. and October of 1979, when Coral is 25 years old, he's arrested for disorderly prowling outside of a woman's home, but those charges are eventually going to be dropped, but they are documented.
00:50:58
Speaker
This is October 17th of 1979. On Halloween, we have Jean Clinton's murder. She was not sexually assaulted. She was not robbed. People passed by her dead body for hours thinking it was a Halloween prank.
00:51:15
Speaker
December 1st of 1979. So Carl's had a birthday in here. turned 26 years old. Helen Dutcher in Ferndale, Michigan is stabbed 12 times. Her murder has a witness, a man named Joseph Foy.
00:51:29
Speaker
And Foy is going to give a sketch artist a description of an African-American man who looks similar to Carl Watts. Moving on to January 25th, 1980, a judge in Detroit rules that a judge in detroit rules that After Dolores has found out that Coral has gotten married, he is going to be responsible for being a father, and he has to pay $40 a week in child support.
00:52:00
Speaker
March 10th, 1980, so about two months later, the body of Hazel Conniff, who's 23 years old, is found in her boyfriend's Detroit driveway tied to a chain link fence with her belt wrapped tightly around her neck.
00:52:18
Speaker
There was no rape and no robbery of her. On... March 31st of 1980, the body of Denise Dunmore, who is 26 years old, is found strangled in a Detroit parking lot.
00:52:33
Speaker
She was not raped and she was not robbed. And then April 20th of 1980, the body of Shirley Small, who's 17 years old, is found on a sidewalk 70 feet from the front door of her family's Ann Arbor, Michigan house.
00:52:48
Speaker
She had bled to death by two stab wounds to her heart, and she had six deep slashes or slices to her face. She had not been raped, and she had not been robbed.
00:53:01
Speaker
Okay. That's a lot to have under. It is. And so something that sticks out to me, and i I'm going to ask you because i have a feeling about it, but i could be totally wrong. and ah But I'll see what you have to say.
00:53:18
Speaker
How many serial killers leave their victims out to be found?
00:53:23
Speaker
um Not that many. I was trying to think of, like, any of them. um Body disposal... Like, it this is complicated.
00:53:35
Speaker
Body disposal is, it varies, not just killer to killer, but also death to death. Right. And I guess my point sort of is, like, all these women were left, like, right out. Like, no attempt to hide them at all.
00:53:52
Speaker
It would would, it would, one I think I what you're getting at here. It would 100% be a unique and sort of odd element. Is that what you're thinking? I just, yeah, i I find it really odd because, you know, there's a lot of profiling about serial killers where, like, ah you know, they it's their secret.
00:54:14
Speaker
They have the body hidden. Sometimes they even, like, go visit the body or whatever. Right. And so this is, like, a completely different sort of situation, right?
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah. Like, this is a this is almost more like a spree killer than it is a serial killer. Right. Because there's no element of erotomania. There's no sexual sadism. There's no hiding of the bodies.
00:54:37
Speaker
There are a few of the bodies that have never been recovered, but but those seem to maybe be disconnected from all of this. Did you find it odd that Joseph Foy witnessed a murder?
00:54:53
Speaker
A little bit. Yes. That doesn't make any sense, does it? Um... You mean didn't do anything? well you're a guy if you If you saw somebody getting murdered, are you going to give the police a description of the person later?
00:55:12
Speaker
ah are you going to stop the murder? Look, sometimes like sometimes fear makes people do strange things.
00:55:28
Speaker
Stranger than, I mean, okay, you're right. But i'm ah I'm, let me put it this way. i would not be like witnessing a murder.
00:55:43
Speaker
no i i No, I'm with you. And like I've looked at this case a number of times and like how to like i express some of the insanity that goes on. We can't go there in this episode without spoiling the next one. yeah there is more um There is more to Joseph Foy's story that, like, you're not wrong.
00:56:12
Speaker
There's questions that will come up about it, but he does something really important later. Well, and so one of the things that i I would say, like, just sort of as a comment, ah considering the cases we just talked about, like, sort of separate from Coral Watts,
Serial Killer Profiling
00:56:27
Speaker
right? Yeah.
00:56:28
Speaker
Would be that most of these ah cases, ah the murders, not necessarily the attacks, but the murders, they seem like they would fit really well into sort of I hate to say run-of-the-mill, but I'm going to say Run-of-the-mill domestic violence homicides.
00:56:52
Speaker
Right. Okay. And by that, what I mean is, like, I'm not saying that domestic violence homicides are run-of-the-mill. I'm just saying if they were to be and they had certain characteristics that matched them, there's a lot to this, right?
00:57:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, like, so I know that killers change over time. Right. But this, like, in order to believe the whole Carl Watch story, you're going to discover that you have to believe that he would strangle, stab, bludgeon, and drown his victims.
00:57:25
Speaker
And in between would, like, punch and and yeah choke out. And, like, it's strange, right? It's very strange. Oh, and he decapitated somebody, too.
00:57:40
Speaker
Allegedly. I'm sorry. Malak Hadad, her head has never been found. Yes. Correct. And, and I mean, like, that's one of the cases, right? It is one of the cases that's dumped in here for him.
00:57:51
Speaker
um And I think the way to to kind of close out this episode is to talk about 1980. So we've we've been up to May 1980, right? Yes. Yeah.
00:58:02
Speaker
This is when Valeria Goodwill files for a divorce. She officially wants away from this 26-year-old man that like clearly is weird, clearly is not interested in their marriage.
00:58:14
Speaker
But that's not as interesting as what happens for the rest of 1980. And I don't mean to make this into a listicle, but in order to understand where I'm headed with all of this, I kind of have to make this into a listicle.
1980 Pattern of Violence
00:58:26
Speaker
So the listicle for 1980 kind of goes like this. He's 26 years old. He's going to be 26 until his birthday, November. So consider that for the next parts of the list.
00:58:39
Speaker
Linda Montero is 27 years old when she's found strangled outside of her Detroit home. No assault, no robbery.
00:58:49
Speaker
That's on May 31st, 1980. So it's right after the divorce is filed. July 13, 1980, Glenda Richman is found dead 27 feet from her Ann Arbor apartment.
00:59:02
Speaker
She's been stabbed 28 times in her left breast with a through driver, but she's not been raped or robbed. July 31, 1980, so two weeks later, Lily Marlene Dunn, who's 28 years old, she's an aspiring model who's abducted from the driveway of her Southgate, Michigan home and dragged to a car.
00:59:24
Speaker
Later that day, 23-year-old woman walking home and she's grabbed from behind by a man who then slashes her throat, but she survives.
00:59:36
Speaker
The same day, ah the United States Customs Authority has got a picture of Quirrell's car crossing the border of where the crime was shortly after it was committed.
00:59:50
Speaker
so Does that make sense? he's He's driving across the border into Michigan. This is a confusing one. It's reported in a couple of ways that there's some issues with it. If you go read the wiki, it's completely wrong.
01:00:09
Speaker
Go ahead. So he was coming out of Canada? Yes. Okay. we end up with a Canadian attack. okay so we end up with a canadian attack And the way that this is alleged to have happened is that they believe he crossed over into Windsor, Ontario, and attacked 20-year-old Sandra Dalpy outside of her apartment and left her with multiple wounds through the face of her chest and throat.
01:00:37
Speaker
But she survives. A task force is organized in July of 1980 to start looking at all of these things that have happened. And there it gets really murky in the media coverage because they're just kind of squishing everything together.
01:00:54
Speaker
On September 14th, 1980, Rebecca Greer Huff, she's 20 years old, and she's found dead inside her apartment in Ann Arbor with 54 stab wounds from a screwdriver.
01:01:08
Speaker
All these murders like are mentioned in the local press at the time as being white women outside or next to their apartments or homes. They're all being killed in the early morning hours. This is where the nickname that Carl Watts will eventually sort of take over, the Sunday morning slasher, comes from.
01:01:28
Speaker
October 6, 1980, we just talked about, is a 20-year-old woman. She is attacked and stabbed but survives. um This is over the border in Windsor, Ontario, which is another strange thing that happens in the middle of all this, depending on which source you're looking at.
01:01:47
Speaker
November 1st of 1980, there's a 30-year-old woman. She's walking to her home after a Halloween party, so the very early morning hours. She notices a black man with a hooded sweatshirt. She keeps an eye on him.
01:02:00
Speaker
She takes out her key chain and he kneels down to tie his shoe, but then he charges her. She screams at the top of her lungs and she ran for her front door and the man turned and ran the other way.
01:02:13
Speaker
He was startled by her loud reaction. She was able to point out who she thought it was, and she does point out a photo of Coral Watts, but she wasn't 100% sure because of the lighting outside at the time.
Tracking and Gathering Evidence
01:02:31
Speaker
ah We have a couple of odd things that happened towards the end of 1980. One of them is the body of Lena J. Bennett, 63. She's found hanging by a trench coat belt on November 6th from a beam in her garage in Harper Woods, Michigan.
01:02:48
Speaker
However, she has a wooden broomstick that has been inserted into her vagina. So that is going to make her a sexual assault.
01:02:59
Speaker
On November 15, 1980, Paul Bunton, who's an Ann Arbor homicide detective, he's told by two betray by two Beat Patrol cops that they witnessed Carl Watts stalking a young woman.
01:03:14
Speaker
This is the only time any authority figure has allegedly seen Watts playing stalker, playing a cat and mouse game with a victim. According to them, he would drive past the victim, stop a few blocks up.
01:03:27
Speaker
She would go one direction. he would follow her again. And if she moved or tried to hide, he would switch up how he was trying to follow her. According to these two police officers, they said that Watts, quote, almost went nuts, end quote, when the girl got inside her apartment and he had lost her.
01:03:47
Speaker
The police officers chased him down. When he ran from them, they caught up to his car and they end up arresting him for driving under a suspended license and having an expired license tag.
01:03:58
Speaker
So maybe he is another Bundy. They search this vehicle, they find a large dictionary with the words Rebecca is a lover scratched into it. They find blood evidence and they find wooden carving tools.
01:04:13
Speaker
So the detective, Paul Bonten, has no evidence against Watts when he's brought in for the interrogation. So Watts makes his phone call and he's allowed to leave.
01:04:26
Speaker
Bunton then becomes the stalker to Carl Watts, trying to find out more information about him. He talks to Watts' former psychiatrist and former attorneys, and they tell Bunton that while they can't comment in detail due to their role in Carl Watts' life, he has probably found the person he's looking for.
01:04:49
Speaker
November 1980, There's an attempted attack on a 60-year-old woman. She's grabbed from behind and choked, but she screams, and the man attacking her runs away.
01:05:04
Speaker
On November 21st of 1980, meeting comes together between the Detroit police, the state of Michigan police, um including Paul Bunton, several visitors from Windsor, Ontario, and a homicide squad from Detroit and from other sections of Michigan. They bring together a few more detectives, and they all agree that it's time to start taking what Carl Watts is doing seriously,
01:05:33
Speaker
And on November 26th of 1980, they get a warrant to put a tracking device on Carl Watt's car. And that warrant will last them from November 26th for 60 days ah plus the holidays.
01:05:48
Speaker
They're gonna have it active on his car till January 29th of 1981. So they're at least getting a chance to dig into him here.
01:06:01
Speaker
um They clearly have ah quite a lot going for them in how they can potentially gather evidence and figure out if Carl Watts is this killer. and I'm wondering if they just know it's not all domestics because of the sheer number of deaths that are happening.
01:06:22
Speaker
It's possible. um i i don't get a good sense of at what point in time, like some of the earlier murders started happening. being possibly him.
01:06:34
Speaker
Yeah. We're going to talk about that in the the next episode, but Carl Watts does one of the most interesting things when this surveillance warrant expires. Guess what he does.
01:06:46
Speaker
I don't know. He moves the hell out of Michigan. and the spring of he didn't do it before In the spring of he completely relocates and gets a new job and it's just gone You said you wonder why he didn't do it before? Hmm?
01:07:06
Speaker
I don't know. i don't know why he doesn't change things up before. it probably has nothing to do with the warrant, right? i mean, he wouldn't know, would he? I don't think he necessarily knew, but I'm sure they're trying to talk to him at this point. And he's clearly been you know kind of caught at his game by these two patrol officers in November.
01:07:25
Speaker
So it makes sense to me a little bit that like he would... over the course of the next two months, make a plan, an exit plan. And that's what he does. Sure. um It also seems like the veracity with which, like, these cases are happening, what I mean is, like, there seems to be a lot happening, like, you know, bam bam, bam, bam, and they're surveilling him or whatever you want to call it.
01:07:50
Speaker
And, I mean, he does some stuff, but they don't really have anything on him. I agree. You sort of thing? Oh, 100%. So we'll pick up here next time 1981 with the Carl Watt story.
Podcast Credits
01:08:07
Speaker
Special consideration was given to True Crime XS by LabradiCreations.com. If you have a moment in your favorite app, please go on and give us a review or a five-star rating. It helps us get noticed in the crowd.
01:08:21
Speaker
This is True Crime XS.
01:08:51
Speaker
want to go, but it's cause I'll disappoint ya. It's all I've ever dreamed of, something I cannot let go of.
01:09:02
Speaker
I hate the competition. This culture's like a Jimin. I lost the motivation to get fit in your expectations.
01:09:13
Speaker
True Crime Excess is brought to you by John and Meg. It's written, produced, edited, and posted by John and Meg. You can always support True Crime Access through Patreon.com, or if you have a story you'd like them to cover, you can reach them at TrueCrimeAccess.com.
01:09:31
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.