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Season Six: Murder, Death and...Resurrection?
185 Plays5 days ago
Today’s episode talks about missing persons cases and a set of unidentified remains with a some scary last images.
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Sources:
Various News Sources Mentioned by Name
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Transcript
Content Warning & Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime XS.
Reflections on Missing Persons Cases
00:00:58
Speaker
I didn't do exactly that thing where we put together a bunch of true crime news, but I did pull couple of pieces of true crime news that I thought were worthy of being headers on episodes. There were two that stood out to me this week.
00:01:13
Speaker
And, um There's been so much stuff going on in terms of people being found that were missing for many years and people being identified. i don't know how you feel about like missing persons cases when they're when they're resolved. Sometimes I feel like, okay, that's awesome.
00:01:31
Speaker
and And sometimes I feel like, well, now we have come to a ah place in the road where I think things are going to kind of stop. We've identified this person, but we don't know like anything else about what happened to them.
00:01:46
Speaker
Right. I think I like consciously avoid ah all of the aftermath involved, not because it it is like a really personal thing for the family, right? Yeah. and and honestly you know ah If it's on our radar, typically the resolution isn't somebody you know showing up happy and healthy, right?
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah. And so it it's depressing. it It's resolution, which is exactly why you know we look into these types of cases, any sort of missing persons case. At least you know a lot of them we drop because it does end up being, I wouldn't say a nothing burger, but it ends up being something that's not really true crime.
00:02:27
Speaker
i But I try not to think about it so much, especially not the way I think about it, trying to figure out what could have possibly happened, right? Yeah.
Discovery and Emotional Aftermath
00:02:36
Speaker
Well, so the the case that popped up for me, so this is April 17th, 2025. It has all the emotions.
00:02:45
Speaker
This is an emotional roller coaster in less than six paragraphs. It really is. It's, yeah, it's one of the most interesting stories I've ever heard or yeah read, I guess.
00:02:57
Speaker
So I caught it from Rochesterfirst.com. A writer up there named Isabel Garcia had grabbed it. And so obviously it's out of Rochester, new New York. I've actually spent a lot of time navigating New York paperwork over the years. And I've had a couple of cases that like I saw like clothes stamps on and when look at them, I go, I don't think that's as closed as they think that's closed.
00:03:21
Speaker
And this case is definitely one of those cases where it it sort of brings that theory to life in a way that you can look at it. It starts off pretty simply.
00:03:33
Speaker
And it's just one rocheser one Rochester family has navigated an an emotional journey after learning that their sister, who officials declared dead in February of 2024, is actually alive, just living out of state.
00:03:49
Speaker
And so it says that Shanita Hopkins had reached out to News 8 with a very unusual situation. Her family had filed a missing persons report for her sister, Shanice Cruz,
00:03:59
Speaker
in July of 2021. They were concerned because she had left her children behind. She had two children and she had cut off all communication with everyone. In April of 2024, police informed the family that their sister had died back in February in an empty lot off of Hudson Avenue near Nash Street.
00:04:20
Speaker
The cause of death, according to the autopsy report, was a drug overdose with extremely high levels of cocaine in the body. Despite being missing for three years at that point, Shanita says that's just not something that her sister had been involved with.
00:04:36
Speaker
She said reading the autopsy was traumatic. that That was, she said it was one thing to hear it, you know. But then it's another thing to actually read it.
00:04:46
Speaker
And then her name is attached to it. So we're thinking this is how she died. And then we're trying to think, did somebody like lace her or is she doing this to her? This is an exact quote from Shanita during an interview with News 8.
00:04:59
Speaker
She says, it's so much that goes into it, your mind just goes crazy. So they did this interview from ah grandma's home over on Post Avenue. And Shanita notes that no one was allowed to view the body.
00:05:12
Speaker
because of the level of decomposition than the length of time that had passed between the death and the discovery. So there was a swift cremation. The family held a memorial service. They held a funeral for Shanice last summer.
00:05:27
Speaker
And then in November 2024, Shanita got a shocking message from a person she did not know in Detroit. And according to Shanita, she says her first message is, ma'am, with a picture of of my sister.
00:05:41
Speaker
Ma'am, I'm concerned your sister is not dead. She just volunteered at my event today. This is just a random message, Shanita adds. She said my initial reaction was like, what am I reading right now? immediately Immediately attempting to get to the bottom of what was going Shanita connected with police who told her to go to the Monroe County Medical Examiner's Office.
00:06:05
Speaker
They assured her that dental records had been match, but Shanita was not convinced and showed the pictures and the messages to personnel at the medical examiner's office, and this kicks off an investigation.
00:06:17
Speaker
So we went the very next day. um They wanted my youngest sister because her and Shanita had the same mom and dad, and then they wanted her son. So both of them went, and they did a DNA test, us and then the results came back, and they said it wasn't a match. This is all according to Shanita.
00:06:35
Speaker
This ultimately confirmed what the family knew at this point. The remains were not those of Shanice. So Shanita tells News 8 the family has been experiencing rollercoaster of emotions.
00:06:48
Speaker
We dealt with the ashes. We put them in necklaces. We mixed them up with our mom. And apparently it was a stranger. She said that's stuff that we still have to relive because at the end of the day it happened.
00:07:01
Speaker
You can't take back the moments where the cops came and told us Chinese Cruz has been found dead outside like trash. You can't take away the initial feelings, you know, like we can't get that back.
00:07:13
Speaker
We can't get those seven months back and we can't get those tears back. She continues. In a response to an inquiry about the situation, Monroe County wrote that the Monroe County office of the medical examiner uses industry standard scientific methods and Shanita says she and
00:07:34
Speaker
due to restrictions on the disclosure of information contained in the records of the office of the medical examiner we are unable to comment on specific cases shaita says she and her family are now seeking like go representation After i came and told you that my sister was alive and for you to tell me that her dental records are identical to the dental records y'all are looking at is just a lie. Like you're lying to my face.
00:07:58
Speaker
So I don't know. i almost feel like they just couldn't find out who this was and they wanted to close a missing persons case. That's almost how I feel, says Shanita. She's noting that the medical examiner's office has since retrieved the ashes they were given, which had been sitting in a purple urn next to their mother.
00:08:17
Speaker
And she says they wanted the ashes back. He did say that, you know, we can compensate you for everything that you all spent on the memorial and the cremation and stuff. But my family was like, no, we need to get a lawyer.
00:08:30
Speaker
If it's for anything, it's really just for pain and suffering because this is crazy. And then my nephew is still going. We're all dealing with this. And then it's, you know, we can't force her to talk to us.
00:08:41
Speaker
So that's it at this point. She's just a missing person to us, but she's alive and well. The family did reach out to the Detroit Police Department to attempt to track down Shanice. Shanita notes her sister may not even know they all truly believed that she was dead.
00:08:57
Speaker
And the reporter in the interview for News 8 says, what would you say to your sister right now? And Shanita says, I love her. I've been angry for, I'm still angry.
00:09:08
Speaker
I don't think I'm ever going to get over the anger, but I know how how it feels, and I'm sorry. i know how it feels to think that she was dead and that I just want to know that I want her to know that whatever we had going on, it doesn't even matter.
00:09:22
Speaker
I love her, and that's all I would want her to know. News 8 said they reached out to the Detroit Police Department to inquire about the status of the agency's attempts to locate Shanice. Monroe County did not address the inquiry as to the identity of the remains given to Shanice and her family.
00:09:40
Speaker
This is all on Rochester first. This is Isabel Garcia putting this together so that we know know about this case. I thought this was fascinating. It really illustrates how it is sort of unacceptable to make a leap.
00:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. There was no reason they couldn't have done DNA, right, to begin with. No, I mean, well, I think it's a timing and expense thing maybe based on how they respond here.
00:10:15
Speaker
But like, this is one of those cases that's making me rethink how we do things. Well, let's see. I find, I just want to throw this out there. I
Complexities of Missing Persons
00:10:26
Speaker
find missing persons all the time.
00:10:28
Speaker
like for yeah like Yeah, yeah, yeah. and And like for what we do here, like I find them all the time. And and I've heard people say, Like, you know, this missing person's on Facebook. How is it possible? They don't know. And they started a new life. And then the answer to that is I don't know.
00:10:43
Speaker
But I can tell you there are lot of people and in NCIC, in NamUs, in, like, all the local databases that states use.
00:10:54
Speaker
There are a lot of people that are reported missing that are walking around completely unaware i could not put a percentage on it for anybody but i i am telling you it's higher than anyone anybody would imagine yeah i mean if i had to like really ballpark it i think it's probably something like 30 yeah i was gonna say like 25 yeah yeah i think it's somewhere in that range and like it i have a case that i'm working on right now that's really old It's, um I want to say, 14, 13, almost 14 years old.
00:11:28
Speaker
And there are several people attached to it, but one of them has gotten, like, major news coverage as a missing person. I did not have any trouble finding them. They are not in the same state. They don't want contact with anyone involved.
00:11:42
Speaker
But I was able to find them using their Social Security number and to talk to them. Right, and so if we dig sort of down into this case, it you know, Shanita was contacted randomly by somebody she didn't know with a picture.
00:11:58
Speaker
yep And said, hey, your sister's not dead. She's here. Now, there's no additional, ah you know, backstory with regard to, like, how a random person would have known ah Shanita and her family believe her sister to be dead. There's no information as to why you know, there was a... They posted on Facebook about the memorial.
00:12:23
Speaker
Well, sure, but why would you have a random picture of somebody... I don't know how to answer that part. And say like, oh, that this person's not ah deceased. She was here, right?
00:12:36
Speaker
um So all that kind of comes together. ah and and I'm not saying that, you know, Shanita should ah disclose that. I think it's a blessing and a curse that she now knows. But it...
00:12:50
Speaker
there may be a little more to it. Um, and I'm also not saying that Sinead is being dishonest. I just find that's of like a once in a lifetime sort of situation where the the family believes that their loved one is deceased. They have gone through the motion of grieving are at least beginning to grieve her. They mix the ashes with their deceased mother's ashes.
00:13:11
Speaker
And then a random person says, Hey, she's not actually dead. um, If you notice, they did a DNA test once this was all brought to light. It didn't match the deceased person, but there's not been any confirmation on the other end, right? Now, granted, if one of my siblings...
00:13:35
Speaker
ah you know, if I was in Shanita's place and somebody sent me a picture and said, hey, your sibling's not deceased and this is the picture of them, I would know if it was my sibling or not, right?
00:13:47
Speaker
It wouldn't matter how much had changed over time. I would know them. And so, you know, i I kind of go along with what she's saying. um If she wanted, i don't know what the family's position on this as i I take a, strike you were saying that we find missing people all the time.
00:14:06
Speaker
And just to be clear, like we don't cover those people and we don't, I mean, except for saying we find missing people all the time, we don't say anything about it, right?
00:14:17
Speaker
We have no idea why they're missing, right? Or why they why there are people that believe they are missing. And it's none of our business, right? If there's no foul play, and I mean, we just don't get involved.
00:14:29
Speaker
And so this puts Shanita in a tough spot. Now, i I'm also curious on the other end of that, like...
00:14:40
Speaker
there had to be some sort of prompting, right? As far as like, does she need help where she's at? Because otherwise the person giving the information would have, well, maybe she, maybe everybody doesn't think like I do or you do.
00:14:56
Speaker
Maybe they thought like, Oh, I should just let them know. but I would think, well, there's a reason, right? Well, so a couple of things on that. I think the way that, um,
00:15:12
Speaker
if you're So there's an event mentioned by the person who sends this message. And i think sometimes you're just innocently trying to tag people in Facebook posts and curious about them. And you type their name into Facebook because you're going to add them. And then all this stuff comes up.
00:15:28
Speaker
And you're like, oh, that must be another specific name. That makes so much sense. Yes. And like, and, and you're like, Oh, what happened? Um, and then it's saying like, Oh, the family's got like a tribute or something. Yeah. It's like remembering that name. You're like, I don't want to tag the dead person. So let me look at that. And you're you're like, Oh wow, this really is her.
00:15:49
Speaker
And she's really not dead. Or the other thing that can happen, and this this happens more than you realize, is um somebody gets involved with somebody and like a third party.
00:16:00
Speaker
So it's like a couple is forming, whatever, like two women, two men, a man and a woman, whatever. And like the people in their orbit are like, oh that person's interesting. Let me look them up.
00:16:11
Speaker
And so a person looks them up and finds this information and goes, wait a second. i like I had something like this happen really recently where I was looking for someone who was ah allegedly the victim of a crime, and um just wanted to interview them.
00:16:30
Speaker
And I had no idea like what was going on in the world. um They were supposed to be in the Virginia area. They had a really specific name. like It was not going to be duplicated as another name that they used to hyphen it.
00:16:43
Speaker
um When I removed the hyphen, the person's a missing person. I found them. They were in a rehab. They had been in a rehab for over a year in Oklahoma.
00:16:53
Speaker
I had not told any of their family. And if you look at the missing person's photo, ah it's definitely them. um If you look at the date they go missing, it coincides within 30 days of the day they go into this very long rehab.
00:17:08
Speaker
And up until that point, like that date, they're interacting with everybody on Facebook, like everybody, everything's totally normal. And then all of a sudden they cut all of their sisters and their parents and everyone in their life off and they disappear.
00:17:21
Speaker
I don't know why they did it. Didn't have permission to like give any further information about it to anyone because she didn't want to be found. But you know that happens. And in this case, like I mention that because from Virginia to Oklahoma is a long hike.
00:17:39
Speaker
But also from New York down to Detroit is another long hike. And so somehow, one of those ways, they came up with her name and they stumbled across. like She has a pretty unique spelling to her name. Not It's not induplicable. I'm sure other people have the same spelling, but they came across her. And once they cross-referenced that photo and they were trying to you know tag her in it or look her up or something that they realized her whole family thinks she's dead.
00:18:12
Speaker
That's a weird thing to know, right? So if you're looking at this all from the perspective of, like, did they want to go missing? I mean, clearly she didn't want contact with somebody in all of this.
00:18:26
Speaker
Right. And so i i was thinking, well, Shanita contacted the police and Detroit. Yeah. when I promise you, the Detroit police are not looking for a missing person who's not gone not actually missing.
00:18:41
Speaker
Well, she's a deceased person that's not actually deceased. but Right, but it's like the jurisdictions aren't going to Oh, yeah, no, but she could actually just message the person back, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. I would talk to him. be like, where she and what was going on? Right. And so, okay, in my personal situation, my life, I would absolutely chase my siblings down. Yeah, I would do it yeah. But I would not chase anybody else down, okay? And so that's where I'm kind of caught, I think, because this isn't just like random people. I would actually, and this is...
00:19:20
Speaker
Like, it's just my personality and my siblings would know this, but I would force them to tell me, like, I don't want to be in our family anymore or whatever, right?
00:19:32
Speaker
And then I would respect it, but you never know what's driving it and what if it's just something stupid, right? Yeah, I will say this more times than not. It is something that in my personal perspective is usually pretty trivial, right?
00:19:49
Speaker
Right. And if there was just like better communication, it wouldn't have even happened to begin with. And I feel like family very important. And I'm happy to go ah long time without speaking to whoever doesn't want to speak to me and my family.
00:20:03
Speaker
But in the event that. I guess what I'm saying is, like, none of my family members would have to be a missing person who I thought was deceased for me to not for me to leave them alone. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, I would be more than happy just to respect their wishes.
Misidentification Challenges
00:20:23
Speaker
i would this is This cost a lot of damage, right? All of it did. yeah it did. As far as, um you know, she had two kids. Of course, she left her kids behind, which...
00:20:34
Speaker
I don't know. I think I would have to do like a safety check. Like, does somebody take her? Like, is she being held against her will? You know i mean? And sometimes people just...
00:20:47
Speaker
Do you have any idea how old she is? I think she was 27 when she went missing. Okay. I was able to, based on this article, and i you know I don't always encourage people to do this, I was able to go through and find a lot of efforts by family to spread the word that she was missing over the last several years.
00:21:11
Speaker
um I don't know the age of those posts in terms of like things that have been re-shared, but what I saw was sometime in 2024, they were saying she was 27 years old, and they had a ton of pictures of her.
00:21:27
Speaker
and Okay. And like I was able to go through and and see that being shared on various social media sites, so it wasn't a small thing.
00:21:39
Speaker
um Well, I think the family came... forward to, well, for one thing, it expires the issue, right? I mean, this is a big issue. If you've got and ah a medical examiner that um for whatever reason they did this, I hope it was just a mistake, right? Yeah. um It seems like it would probably be just a mistake, but who knows? Maybe they didn't want to take the time and they actually...
00:22:09
Speaker
I don't know. I still don't think that anybody would do something like that ah purposefully. i just don't. Yeah, I just found it very interesting, and I mentioned it here because i think this is sort of an extreme case of that of all of these things happening where they like had the funeral and the cremation and... and they've had a memorial and they've outlaid money and, and like sort of put their loved one to rest and then found out that they were not deceased. I think that part might be an extreme, but it made me ask all kinds of of questions. Like, you know, are we doing the wrong thing with dental records? Has that become an art that like, that science has left behind?
00:22:50
Speaker
Like, you know, i I say these things because I, and I, and I talk about this case cause I don't want things like that to happen again. And I don't know how you, prevent that because I've seen several scenarios over the years where something like this could potentially happen.
00:23:06
Speaker
Right. um I've seen cases I actually have suspected things like this have happened. Yeah. But, you know, there's not the follow up ah because clearly this would not have been found out if they hadn't have basically pressured and them into like realizing there could have been a mistake. i mean, they weren't, which I don't necessarily blame them like as far as, you know well, we we made the best call we could, right? But I can see where dental records could be mistaken. i don't think that's going to happen with DNA unless there's some sort of you know ah oversight or um contamination or something, right? Yeah, or close relatives or something. there's ah There's a way for that to be screwed up, but I think that would be even more extreme than this.
00:23:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, because, yeah. Because how many people are going to be needing in in a family or how many related people are going to be needed to be identified, right? Right.
00:24:05
Speaker
So um I do hope that, ah I hope the family figures out what's going on. it i don't know. I wonder if
00:24:18
Speaker
I don't know. I wonder if in this situation, would it have just been better that they didn't know? i mean, he's maybe. But at the same time, i think one of the, I think in a situation where somebody leaves and there isn't, I think there's always some underlying issue that the person feels is major.
00:24:38
Speaker
But I think it's one of the worst things you can do to your family, a loving family, at least. ah Yeah, i you know, there's all kinds of dynamics here that I'm not going to try to speak for. well sure. But if you just say, i need my own space, and you leave, that's much better than disappearing.
00:24:56
Speaker
I would tend to agree with you. and I will say, I've only ever come across...
00:25:04
Speaker
two and a half cases, because one of them had an underlying thing that I've never quite figured out, but two and and a half, we'll say three cases, where I felt like someone who had been declared dead and mourned by a family, that I felt like I had clearly found convincing evidence that a person I spoke to that was alive and well long after that declaration was That person.
00:25:35
Speaker
And i looked at them and i went, okay, this missing person is actually alive. um The family thinks that they were a missing person's case and their remains were recovered, but they're alive and they're over here. And for whatever reason, they want nothing to do with this person.
00:25:52
Speaker
Right. And you wouldn't have done anything, right? No, I didn't do a thing. there were I have had two cases where... I did not have DNA evidence to prove me right, but I had everything else saying, this is that person they think was missing and then recovered.
00:26:08
Speaker
um And I had one case that I looked at, and I'm still not sure to this day that I had the right evidence. person but everything pointed that direction i just never found the last piece that i went oh yeah that's them right and see and those say and so i don't know how many i've i've i feel like i've probably seen at least some i suspected right yeah but in the event that somebody's missing and deceased I'm sorry, they're missing and they've been declared deceased and then they could possibly still be alive.
Presidential Commutation Case
00:26:44
Speaker
Like I kind of cross all those types of things off of my list. I do, however, feel like if they've been, um you know, wrongly declared deceased, it could be something.
00:26:55
Speaker
But at the same time, it's hard to do anything about that without exposing the fact that they're not dead. They want to be missing because, if it wasn't a If it wasn't a relative pushing to get the DNA tested, that wouldn't have happened.
00:27:11
Speaker
Correct. And so it's kind of a catch-22. And I don't know. It's just that's such a weird situation. And I've never seen anything exactly like this play out. But I do hope they get whatever is that they need whatever it is that they need to move on from this yeah um so i have the way that i put this episode together the theme today is death and we're kicking off with death that may not be a death uh apparently it's not the death of the person they think it is i say that from the perspective of the dna testing did you have a lot more on this one
00:27:48
Speaker
No, I'm good. Okay, so ah i put a couple of cases together. This is mid-April that we're doing this. um This is a commutation by President Biden that's had an update of sorts.
00:28:04
Speaker
Had you ever heard of this guy ah beyond like being on the commutation lift? It seems like ah Briefly, but I've never like you know looked really deep into the case because ah you know he was ah he was convicted, right? Yeah, yeah. This is somebody that, like, they're convicted, they're sentenced to death in 2010, ultimately in 2024. Let me say all my dates right. So he is...
00:28:38
Speaker
Charged in a 2010 case. He's put on death row in 2014. The sentence is commuted and like Christmas 2024. And well, let's tell you a little bit more about him.
00:28:54
Speaker
So this article that we're using as a source, and I did back check some of it, is klb.com. um It just says former death rate death row inmate indicted in Catahoula Parish. This is the Louisiana case.
00:29:10
Speaker
And it starts off... There's no credit on this. They just give credit to the digital team down there. And I'm stealing a little bit of their words to tell you guys this story. says, a man whose death sentence was commuted by former President Joe Biden back in December 2024 has been indicted for the first-degree murder of a 12-year-old girl. This is according to Catahoula Paris District Attorney Bradley Bridgette.
00:29:36
Speaker
ah briette Thomas Stephen Sanders was put on death row back in September of 2014 for the 2010 kidnapping and murder of 12-year-old Lexus Roberts of Las Vegas, Nevada.
00:29:51
Speaker
Following four years later, and they say a four-year trial. I tried to figure out what they meant there. I think they mean sort of the proceedings themselves from indictment ah arrest and indictment to ah death sentence.
00:30:06
Speaker
ah Thomas Sanders was sentenced to death by a jury at Alexandria's federal courthouse. He admitted to kidnapping and then killing 12-year-old Lexus Roberts i near Harrisonburg after murdering her mother in Arizona.
00:30:26
Speaker
So as recently as 2020, he was in the process of appealing his death row sentence to the Federal Court of Appeals down in New Orleans. On December 23rd, 2024, not quite Christmas Eve right before, ah Biden commuted the sentences of 37 of the 40 men on federal death row, including Sanders.
00:30:44
Speaker
On April 16th, 2025, the Catahoula Paris grand jury indicted Thomas Sanders for first-degree murder in Lexis' case. ah the district attorney said that they were seeking the death penalty and that Biden's action to commute the federal death penalty will have no effect on a state prosecution.
00:31:05
Speaker
According to the DA, Lexis had been living with her mother Sue Ellen in Las Vegas, Nevada. During Labor Day weekend 2010, the mother and daughter had accompanied Thomas Sanders to the Grand Canyon in Arizona for a vacation.
00:31:18
Speaker
Upon their return to Las Vegas, the DA says that Thomas Sanders shot and killed Sue Ellen and then took Lexus to Catahoula Parish, where he shot her multiple times. And the statement is he used a knife on her.
00:31:34
Speaker
Hunter has found her remains in October of 2010. She was then positively identified. And the Catahoula Parish Sheriff's Department, Louisiana State Police, the FBI, and LSU faces worked together in this investigation.
00:31:48
Speaker
So I thought this was interesting. And I think there's going to be a lot of folks. So I'm torn on this whole thing. I think a lot of folks are going to come out against the concept of like being able to do this.
00:32:01
Speaker
It's perfectly legal. There's not going to be a double jeopardy attachment here.
Thomas Sanders' Crimes
00:32:05
Speaker
Not even a little bit. Yeah, not even a little bit. It's completely separate jurisdictions. And it's um it's always something that can loom over the head of someone facing state charges, whether...
00:32:16
Speaker
the state charges that they have will go federal. um It's not always as common for someone who gets federal charges to then turn around and face state charges.
00:32:27
Speaker
I have seen cases where the military gets involved, which has its own completely different set of rules. They go by the UCMJ. Depending on where crimes take place,
00:32:40
Speaker
depending on where crimes take place Crimes can be charged in a number of ways. I've seen people charged with multiple counts of murder for a single killing because they're not sure the theory of the crime. I've seen jurisdictions... um and be spread out like this.
00:32:56
Speaker
In theory, ah they' they're going to go with just a murder charge down here in Louisiana, prove that he was a murderer here, and sentence him to death after his death sentence has been commuted.
00:33:08
Speaker
But the reason I say that I'm torn is frequently i am not a proponent of the death penalty. like I am against it in so many ways. I don't know that I'm against it in the case of someone who is admitting to the heinous murder of a child um i A lot of times the reason that confession even comes is it it comes about because a deal has been struck to take capital punishment off of the table, in my experience. He did confess, for sure? Yes, he has admitted.
00:33:43
Speaker
So he admits to killing mom and to killing Lexus Roberts. Okay. Okay. So that part, if that confession is accurate information and we're not looking at like guy, like you could show me this case and his confession and I could give you reasons that it's wrong.
00:34:03
Speaker
Um, but ultimately I'm not going to be one to argue Like what have happened to give you kind of a summary overview. The FBI has this case on the USDOJ website.
00:34:16
Speaker
um September 26, 2014, they put out a press release about it. And it simply said a federal jury in the Western District of Louisiana today returned to verdict imposing the death penalty on a Las Vegas man.
00:34:29
Speaker
For the brutal kidnapping and murder of a 12-year-old girl, this case represents the first time that the death penalty has been imposed in federal court in the Western District of Louisiana. it was a big deal back then.
00:34:41
Speaker
um The people making this announcement at the time are Assistant Attorney General Leslie Caldwell. That's going to be from the Justice Department's Criminal Division. Stephanie Finley is the U.S. Attorney down there. And the Special Agent in Charge at New Orleans Field Division for the FBI is Michael Anderson at the time.
00:34:59
Speaker
Thomas Sanders, 57, was convicted September 8, 2014 of one counter kidnapping resulting in death. one count of using a firearm during a crime of violence resulting in death for the kidnapping murder of lexus roberts in the fall of 2010. according to caldwell this is a heartbreaking case a young girl witnessed the murder of her mother who was held captive for days and had her life tragically cut short by her senseless brutal murder we hope today's verdict will help lexus's family as they continue to struggle the loss of their loved one
00:35:30
Speaker
These types of cases are never easy, but today we remember the victims, their families, and their loved ones. They switch over in the press conference at this point to U.S. Attorney Finley. um It's the nature of the crime, the level of violence involved, or something that we never get used to no matter how long we've done this.
00:35:46
Speaker
The severity of the sentence imposed against Sanders underscores the senseless brutality of his acts against an innocent 12-year-old girl. Lexis Roberts was needlessly taken from a family that loved her, denied the most fundamental right of life,
00:36:00
Speaker
and they were denied the joy of knowing what that life could have been still we do not lose sight of the fact that this trial and sentencing also represent the right of due process that was extended to thomas sanders and a jury of his peers has rendered justice nothing no trial or sentence can ever bring back lexus or her mother but we hope that the verdict brings some measure of closure to Lexis' family.
00:36:22
Speaker
The prosecutors and the law enforcement agencies that assisted in this case are to be commended for their hard work. The importance of their collective efforts cannot be overstated. Evidence admitted during trial established that Sanders met Sue Ellen Roberts, who was 31, in the summer of 2010, when Ellen rented a storage unit at a warehouse in Las Vegas where Thomas Sanders worked.
00:36:44
Speaker
Roberts and Sanders began dating, and approximately two months later, Roberts agreed that she and her 12-year-old daughter, Lexis, would go on a trip with Sanders over the Labor Day weekend to a wildlife park near the Grand Canyon.
00:36:57
Speaker
As they were returning to Nevada after three days of traveling, Sanders pulled off Interstate 40 in a remote location in the Arizona desert and shot Sue Ellen Roberts in the head and then forced Lexus Roberts into the car, keeping her captive.
00:37:11
Speaker
Sanders drove several days across the country before he murdered Lexus Roberts in a wooded area in Catahoula Parish, Louisiana, Evidence at trial established that Sanders shot Lexus Roberts four times, cut her throat, and left her body in the woods where a hunter found her body on October 8, 2010. A nationwide manhunt ensued, and Sanders was arrested on November 14, 2010 at a truck stop in Gulfport, Mississippi by FBI agents and a Harrison County Sheriff's deputy.
00:37:42
Speaker
At trial, the jury heard a recorded confession in which Sanders admitted killing the mother and daughter. So if all that holds true, good work.
00:37:53
Speaker
It's interesting that he got away from the death penalty with a commutation, and it's now going to generate a whole new round of interesting legal filings and wranglings.
00:38:04
Speaker
Okay. Right. And so commutation, just to be clear, I'm sure everybody knows this, I get confused sometimes, but a commutation is he's just sentenced to life in prison for the rest of his life without the possibility of parole. In place of the death penalty. Correct.
00:38:21
Speaker
And so he wasn't, um he didn't get a pardon. um You know, I just want to be clear about that. Yeah. it's ah i If I misstated that, I apologize. No, you didn't. um But I, like I said, I get confused sometimes ah when I'm you know, absorbing and not really processing. But that's to me, that's an important distinction. But you didn't say anything to the contrary. I'm just pointing it out.
00:38:44
Speaker
i um So i am torn a little bit, too. have no problem with people being ah serving the rest of their life in prison as opposed to being put to death.
00:38:58
Speaker
I also... I don't get real involved in a whole lot of death penalty cases ah when they've gone through the process and that's what was decided, right?
00:39:09
Speaker
I have seen several cases ah that we've covered over the years that ah they make me think twice about it, right? Yeah.
00:39:22
Speaker
um But at the same time, I try to have respect for the process when it's gone through a jury trial, especially if a jury is the one who decides to sentence someone to death.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yes. Now, a lot of times it'll be, well, actually, I don't really know, but I know a judge can do it in some places, in some jurisdictions, so and then a jury has to do it in others. I'm more inclined ah to think that,
00:39:49
Speaker
It sort of takes a lot for a jury put somebody on death row. Yes. I could be wrong about that. I'm not sure. if I was in that position, I'm not sure what I would do. I guess it would depend on what I witnessed as a jury, as a juror on the jury in the case.
00:40:07
Speaker
And i feel like a lot of times, ah people you know, because I do think it has to be, I'm pretty sure ah death sentence has to be unanimous if it's decided by the jury.
00:40:19
Speaker
Correct. Okay. And so that's, ah to me, that's that's that's a sort of, and at least now, I'm not saying it's always been that way, but that's sort of a pretty good ah metric as far as, you know, 12 people found this person guilty and felt the need to sentence them to death.
00:40:38
Speaker
So I respect that. If You know, the president also has the power to issue commutations for federal prisoners on death row. And as long as um they... I feel like if it's going to be anything besides life without the possibility of parole, I feel like that's all the commutation should be. If they want other relief, it needs to go through the system like everything else does, right? Right.
00:41:02
Speaker
And it Yeah, I just don't know. I'm not so sure about... I'm okay with people not being put to death. I'm also okay with the process. And if they want to have situations where it's, you know... i just want it to be a fair process, I guess is what I'm saying.
00:41:23
Speaker
i've I've said my piece on on the death penalty part many times, so i'm not going to rant on that. I would argue that the Federal Capital Crimes Division of the United States Department of Justice, up until recent years...
00:41:35
Speaker
because I don't have an immediate um knowledge of how they're operating, but, from what I've seen, ah they differ from state prosecutions in a number of ways. And so state prosecutions, you typically have to get some kind of capital certification, but it's coming from like the County or parish level, the local level, that prosecutor or state's attorney or district attorney ever, what you call that person in that jurisdiction makes the ruling that we're going to seek the death penalty and goes before a judge
00:42:06
Speaker
to
Death Penalty Debate
00:42:07
Speaker
state their reasoning. The defense has a chance to argue it. And the judge decides, yes, this can be capitally certified. So it's happening at a local level. The state does not really get involved itself. The representative at the local level is all they need.
00:42:20
Speaker
In federal death penalty cases, it has to come before the United States Attorney General. And ultimately, United States Attorney General's office is going to sign off on the death penalty being salt.
00:42:33
Speaker
And you are correct on on the rest of that. Once that certification ah is salt and it goes before judge and it's certified, it has to be a unanimous decision before that judge sentences whoever the person is that's been convicted to capital punishment. And it's a long process. takes a very long time.
00:42:56
Speaker
um The case that we're going to talk about a little bit today is going to like illustrate that kind of timeline in a sort of a typical way but yeah the the federal death penalty is quite interesting um for a number of reasons and that's whether you believe it should or should not be used well sure right and you know but yeah i mean it should be fair right yeah And I don't feel like there's anybody, it would be really strange for anybody to think that it would be okay for it not to be fair, right? Yeah.
00:43:31
Speaker
And, you know, the only thing i I would add to that, which, I mean, i've said I've said my, you know, riding the fence on the death penalty piece earlier.
00:43:43
Speaker
multiple times. And it's just, it's not that I don't care. It's just that there's not a whole lot I feel like I can advocate one way or the other for. And so, um, you know, we did have a couple of things happen last year. They ended up having the system work at least temporarily. Right. Yeah.
00:44:00
Speaker
And so, um, I guess,
00:44:07
Speaker
I guess, yeah, I guess that's it. I guess that's all I really have to say. Okay. Well, so. have a lot of thoughts on it. I just, I'm not really sure it matters, so. Oh, I think, I think thoughts matter. I mean, i get i can go into the case. I can let you talk about the death penalty for the rest of the episode. That's how I, like, I, that's my view on it.
00:44:27
Speaker
Well, right. And so, I guess my, what what I'm thinking when I say that is, I could be convinced that Like, probably either way, like, if you tell me, you know, this went to trial, the jury decided it, I would say, well, it seems like that's fair. Not to mention the fact a lot of people get sentenced to death row, and then they die, but not, like, they're not killed. They're not executed, yeah.
00:44:53
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm sorry, yeah, they're not executed. And so, it's sort of a moot point at times, especially with the federal government, right? I mean, i I don't know if there's been any recently, but they're very sparing, right?
00:45:07
Speaker
Yes. Okay. And there's a there's a lot of matter machinations that come into play, even with a state-level execution. yeah absolutely. that The federal government ultimately gets involved like along the way, whether they want to or not.
00:45:23
Speaker
Well, right, because there's a lot. I feel like there is a lot in place as far as the death penalty goes. However... I would never ever try to convince somebody who wasn't for the death penalty to be for it. Yeah. And I feel like it doesn't matter if I ride the fence or not. And in it's how our It's how our system's designed, right?
00:45:50
Speaker
And I don't actually foresee it changing. I feel like society takes on ah its own, it takes on the position of the people in it. And while we have the death penalty in some states, some states have changed.
00:46:03
Speaker
they don't have it any longer and the federal government still has it, you can, you see where it's not like it used to be, right? Oh yeah. All the problems
Louisiana Death Penalty Case
00:46:13
Speaker
that, you know, I'm not saying it's perfect, but all the problems, they correct themselves, right? a lot of times. And so I don't know, I could just, I can kind of go either way. And um I do feel like This case warrants the re-prosecution of this guy, are I shouldn't say re-prosecution, a state-level prosecution for his crimes.
00:46:37
Speaker
yeah I feel like it's warranted. And, you know, if he gets the death penalty and it's done fairly, so be it. um If he's sentenced to life in prison, so be it.
00:46:48
Speaker
Well, so I have ah been involved in Louisiana cases for a very long time. um So I thought with this having been brought up with Thomas Sanders, that he is now going to face the death penalty in Louisiana after having been ah sentenced to essentially life without parole with this commutation where he was originally sentenced to death in the federal system.
00:47:15
Speaker
I thought we'd talk about a Louisiana death penalty case today.
Jesse Hoffman's Background & Crime
00:47:18
Speaker
And it's sort of timely. um I knew that this this case was sort of going to wrap up and i had i put it on my my radar to talk about. And now that we're in April 2025, it's kind of the right time to talk about it.
00:47:33
Speaker
um This is the case of ah a young man who commits a pretty heinous offense, but we're going to talk about him. This is in Louisiana.
00:47:45
Speaker
The person that we're talking about today, his name is Jesse Dean Hoffman Jr. He was born down in Louisiana in September of 1978, and he grew up in a family of five kids. ah May 31st, 1998, one of his brothers, a guy named Charles Fields, was shot and killed when he was 25 years old in New Orleans.
00:48:05
Speaker
Now, Jesse Hoffman, he's unmarried. But he has a girlfriend who is going to give birth to their son eventually. um According to one of Hoffman's brothers, this is a guy named Marvin Fields, the family was pretty poor.
00:48:22
Speaker
They had... even moved over to Florida and settled into a pretty low, low cost housing area. And at a very young age, all of the siblings were subject to some physical abuse by their mother.
00:48:36
Speaker
One of the things that they pointed out is being beaten with ah a belt or strips cut from a belt, ah which, you know, that's, that's a level of of of punishment that that happens in a lot of families and,
00:48:51
Speaker
But she would also place their hands on hot stoves as punishment for different levels of stealing. Despite all these troubles at home, Jesse Hoffman, he did well in school as a football player. He played quarterback for the school team.
00:49:04
Speaker
He had straight A's all the way to the 11th grade, but ah he started a relationship with a girlfriend, and like his grades kind of fell off after that. He did complete his high school education down at Kennedy High School, which is in the Gentilly neighborhood over in New Orleans.
00:49:21
Speaker
He also worked multiple jobs during high school. he worked at restaurants. He worked at a local bed and breakfast. After his high school graduation, he went on to work as a car park valet in New Orleans.
00:49:33
Speaker
And that's where he's working in November of 1996. ninety six So that kind of brings us up to date on on the subject. And then there's the question of, like, what did he do?
00:49:47
Speaker
So on November 1996...
00:49:50
Speaker
So that's a Tuesday. In fact, it's ah it's the Tuesday right before Thanksgiving. Jesse Hoffman Jr., he had just turned 18 years old in September.
00:50:03
Speaker
On this particular day, 28-year-old woman named Mary Elliott had just left work, and she was on her way to get a car ah down at the Sheridan Parking Garage in downtown New Orleans. She would regularly park her car here.
00:50:17
Speaker
And she encounters Jesse Hoffman in the parking garage. He had been working as a valet. And for some reason, he kidnaps the woman at gunpoint in her own car.
00:50:32
Speaker
Mary Elliott is often referred to as Molly Elliott in these proceedings. If you look her up online, ah she's going to be called Molly. But Jesse Hoffman forces Molly to drive to a nearby ATM and withdraw money.
00:50:46
Speaker
ah For a period of like 15 years, this was like the most common crime that you heard about. Somebody being accosted, and stuck in their car in what is a carjacking that turns into this robbery where you like ride around to ATMs and take out money.
Trial and Sentencing
00:51:04
Speaker
Um, Hoffman asked, uh, her to do this at gunpoint. She gets $200 and then he makes her drive out of new Orleans to a remote area over in St. Tammany parish.
00:51:20
Speaker
And, um, he rapes her at gunpoint. He marches her over to a dirt patch and has her kneel. Um, and then he shoots her in the head.
00:51:34
Speaker
After killing Molly Elliott, Jesse Hoffman leaves her naked body behind and disposes of her belongings and the murder weapon.
00:51:47
Speaker
Molly is not going to be found until Thanksgiving Day. A duck hunter discovers Molly Elliott's body and calls police. Molly Elliott's husband, who had reported her missing after she failed to show up for dinner on Tuesday, he identifies her later that Thanksgiving day.
00:52:06
Speaker
The police also received a report from a couple who had found Molly Elliott's clothes and belongings dumped in a vacant lot. Among those objects were three ATM receipts, which were traced back to the same ATM where Molly Elliott had withdrawn money for Jesse Hoffman.
00:52:25
Speaker
The police managed to identify and arrest Hoffman based on the description of an African-American gunman ah who is captured in the photographs taken from the ATM.
00:52:37
Speaker
He initially denies that he has anything to do with this, but when he's confronted with the evidence, he admits to what he did and tells the police the story. ah Background information had been gathered about Molly Elliott. Her full name was Mary Margaret Murphy Elliott.
00:52:54
Speaker
She had been born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona. She was a so Southern California girl. She had begun working in, she moves from Phoenix to Southern ah California. She goes to college there. She moves to l LA to work for an advertising company.
00:53:11
Speaker
She had met her husband, who is a man named Andy. And they had moved to New Orleans area, the rough area, but they actually lived in Covington, Louisiana. ah They had moved there in 1994. They got married in the spring of 1995.
00:53:28
Speaker
So they had not even been married for two years when this happened. So after he's arrested, Jesse Hoffman is charged with first degree murder. And on January 8th in 1997, St.
00:53:40
Speaker
Tammy Parish, their grand jury indicts Jesse Hoffman for this first degree murder charge. And this offense in Louisiana carries the death penalty.
00:53:51
Speaker
And in the 90s, they were handing it out quite a bit. Subsequently, Jesse goes on trial. 12-member St. Tammy Parish jury in 1998 um at trial hears that Jesse Hoffman had used the money to go shopping with his girlfriend.
00:54:08
Speaker
And based on his statement, he said that after he had kidnapped Molly and, quote, had sex with her, end quote, ah Hoffman claimed that they were consensually having sex and it was not rape. He says that an unknown man who was armed with a gun had walked off with Molly Elliott.
00:54:24
Speaker
um This is his first statement. Later on in the interrogations, he recants this statement and he says that the gun went off accidentally during a struggle with Molly Elliott over the gun and that she had died from that shooting as a result.
00:54:39
Speaker
ah No matter how you shake this, he puts himself at the scene. um he in some ways admits to the crime. i guess that's just minimizing, do you think? Yeah, I think so.
00:54:52
Speaker
um i've I've heard a lot of these statements over the years and similar crimes. And I will say this.
00:55:00
Speaker
Guns do go off accidentally, but having the gun is the problem when you're quote having consensual sex. Why do you have in the gun? oh yeah. Well that's garbage. Yeah. i mean, yeah, I'm aware. And you know, and this, this guy was covering up a crime. He shot her execution style.
00:55:20
Speaker
So he ends up being found guilty of first-degree murder as charged. Now, his lawyers do a pretty good job coming in and talking about the childhood abuse and neglect.
00:55:31
Speaker
And they try to attribute that to him having post-traumatic stress symptoms and having some brain damage. But on June 27, 1998, which is two days after the verdict returned, the same jury comes back in.
00:55:45
Speaker
And they delivered their verdict on sentencing and they recommend the death penalty for Jesse Hoffman.
00:55:52
Speaker
On September 11th, 1998, Jesse Hoffman is formally sentenced to death by the trial court in accordance to the jury's recommendations. And two months later, he is transferred over to Louisiana State Penitentiary, the maximum security prison that was once known as Angola.
00:56:13
Speaker
ah So November 11, 1998, he arrives at Angola. Now, that's a long time ago. That's 27 years ago. um We have a lot of appeals that are going to take place.
00:56:28
Speaker
April 11, 2000, he has made his way up to the Louisiana Supreme Court with an appeal, and it is dismissed. So a little later in the year, October 16, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court received has ruled on a federal writ of Satori, and they have rejected it.
00:56:54
Speaker
But March 30, 2012, a habeas petition has been filed on his behalf, and without a hearing, it is rejected. ah March 12, 2014, the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals also rejects Jesse Hoffman's appeal.
00:57:13
Speaker
And on January 20, 2015, he files his final appeal and petition for Sartoria, which is denied by the U.S. Supreme Court. And at this point in time, it confirms his death sentence.
00:57:26
Speaker
So October 19th of 2021, one last appeal is raised and the Louisiana Supreme Court rejects it This appeal, his his attorneys have alleged that his grounds were the validity of his conviction was breached by racial discrimination.
00:57:46
Speaker
And they point out that the jury had consisted of all 12 white jurors when they had convicted him. and that his age of 18 made it manifest manifestly excessive for him to have received the death sentence.
00:58:03
Speaker
The court rejects these claims of racial bias and find there's no tangible evidence of any consensus against executing people under the age of 21, and they dismiss his other points as well.
00:58:14
Speaker
Which is interesting, because some of this stuff kind of matters. like And ah it's one of the reasons I brought up his his case. one of the very, very interesting things about this for me is we split hairs at the age of 18 lot as a justice system.
00:58:34
Speaker
That's true. um There are rulings that if he had, like if this had happened in August that year, would have prevented him from being put to death. So it's ah it's a huge difference those two months make.
00:58:48
Speaker
It really is. um And I'm trying to think, i don't even I don't even know that he could have ben he Like, his...
Execution Protocol Legalities
00:58:56
Speaker
Even a sentence to life would have been... had to be reconsidered. I don't know when that...
00:59:01
Speaker
ah verdict, tap ah that ruling happened. Miller v. Alabama would have affected this case had he been just under 18 as opposed to 18. Now, okay, so of course um you know I understand there has to be a line somewhere, right? Yep.
00:59:17
Speaker
And, you know, 18 is it. That makes sense. But, yeah know, if you put on your humanity hat for a second, really two months difference? Yeah.
00:59:29
Speaker
I mean... But I understand there has to be line. Yeah, that's that just happens to be the line. And so one of the things that happens that's interesting about Jesse Hoffman's appeals is they sort of, in 2012, they bifurcate.
00:59:46
Speaker
And instead of just being appeals... and Appeals are motions that are brought to talk about what's already happened in court. Megan and I have talked about this sort of ad nauseum on the podcast at times.
00:59:59
Speaker
like you You're basically only left with what the trial court was dealing with in these appeals or biases or constitutionality issues. But his defense team of lawyers bifurcated.
01:00:15
Speaker
And on December 22, 2012, a lawsuit is filed on Jesse Hoffman's behalf against the state's lethal injection protocols. Now, this is slightly different from anything to do with his case at large. And what they're saying here is that the protocols in Louisiana at the time would be, ah they would violate this the U.S. Constitution, and that the state would be breaching its constitutional rights by putting him to death because it would be cruel and unusual punishment.
01:00:46
Speaker
So while the lawsuit is ongoing, the state suspends an execution warrant of another death row inmate, and this is a guy named Christopher Sepulvato. At some point, he may come up in a different kind of case, but he had been scheduled to be executed February 13, 2013, but
01:01:05
Speaker
bye It's allowed that they join Hoffman and Sepulvato's case. Right, because the attorneys ah filing that, they considered it to be a legitimate issue. Yeah.
01:01:17
Speaker
And honestly, it's i i personally think people that are about to be put to death should have every level possible you know look at it. And what they say affects cases to come, right? Yeah.
01:01:31
Speaker
Yeah. And so they end up in the process of this lawsuit, they end up filing a second lawsuit where they have them on board. Like he did join Hoffman's lawsuit as a co-plaintiff, but this lawsuit is originally filed by Sepulvato and ah Jesse Hoffman's attorneys.
01:01:52
Speaker
And This is in 2014. They attack the state's lethal injection protocols, and that's because Louisiana prison authorities had decided to switch to a new combination of drugs.
01:02:05
Speaker
I believe they were on a three-drug cocktail, and they moved to two-drug cocktail. And the two-drug cocktail that they moved to was Dilanin-Verset, which is... that when that was happening everywhere? Yeah, this was everywhere. Okay, yeah, I remember that whole situation. It was causing issues. Yeah, yeah. So they changed the drug protocol to try and make the execution of human beings more um And they sign a new warrant for February 2014 for Christopher Sepulvato.
01:02:39
Speaker
And that execution ends up being delayed while the second lawsuit winds its way through the courts. and The plaintiffs who are the attorneys for Hoffman and Sepulvato, they argue that the combination of Versed and Dilaudid would potentially be such a new thing that it could also ah give rise to the possibility of it being cruel and unusual punishment and again, violating their constitutional rights.
01:03:09
Speaker
At this time, Louisiana and multiple other states, as you just mentioned, began to make amendments to their protocols involving capital punishment and specifically lethal injection.
01:03:21
Speaker
due to this shortage that happens. The shortage is artificial, but it's because European drug makers decide we don't want to export barbiturates or sedatives anymore to the US to states who potentially are going to be procuring these lethal medications in quantities such that they can carry out lethal injection.
01:03:49
Speaker
in all these death penalty states, this ends up leading to a true shortage of lethal injection drugs in the United States. Right. And so, you know, obviously the U S has absolutely no, uh, power to say, Hey, Europe, you have to export those drugs. Right. Right.
01:04:09
Speaker
And so this lawsuit winds on for, uh, ah
01:04:14
Speaker
A decade, basically. And finally, a U.S. s District Court judge named Shelley Dick, um who I believe is currently the chief U.S. District Court judge down in Louisiana,
01:04:26
Speaker
And she would be the first female judge to serve in that district if my memory is serving correctly. On April 3rd, 2022, she dismisses ah this lawsuit.
01:04:37
Speaker
And she rules that the plaintiff lack standing to challenge protocols due to the state's inability to secure necessary drugs for lethal injections. And there are about 10 inmates at this point that have joined this case when it's dismissed.
01:04:53
Speaker
And Hoffman is is still on that list. um and But so depending on how you look at it, um they both of those cases for Christopher Sepulvato and ah for Jesse Hoffman Jr., they have now wrapped up.
01:05:11
Speaker
We'll get to that in one second. In 2023, John Bel Edwards is nearing the end of his term as the 56th governor of Louisiana.
01:05:24
Speaker
He comes out and says he is against the death penalty and he wants it to be abolished in the state. On May 24, 2023, a bill that's been put forth to end capital punishment in Louisiana is rejected by lawmakers.
01:05:42
Speaker
And a month later, in June 2023, while there are 57 death row inmates on death row in Louisiana, 56 of them are involved in this group joint effort to like pool the resources, filing petitions for clemency jointly and separately, and they're hoping that they can benefit from the fact that John Bel Edwards is against the death penalty.
01:06:11
Speaker
But these petitions are these petitions end up only being reviewed by the Louisiana Board of Pardons and the Committee on Parole. And in July 2023, they reject all 56 clemency petitions, and they determine that the inmates are ineligible as they had filed their petitions too soon after recent judicial rulings affecting appeals.
Introduction of Nitrogen Hypoxia
01:06:38
Speaker
So clemency petitions could only be submitted at least a year after rulings of an inmate's final appeal. So they have to be sitting on death row with no hope for a year in Louisiana before anything can be put for it.
01:06:55
Speaker
But nice try, right? Yeah. In October, 2023, further clemency appeals are filed from five death row inmates, including Antoinette Frank at the time, who I know she will come up eventually.
01:07:10
Speaker
She's a former New Orleans police officer who committed a violent armed robbery at a restaurant in March of 1995 that resulted in the murders of two family members of the restaurant owners.
01:07:27
Speaker
And she hasn't been put to death yet, right? ah She is still alive currently. find it interesting um that this crime, so the crime we're talking about, are the Jesse Hoffman Jr., his crime happened later than hers.
01:07:43
Speaker
Yes. So I find that interesting. Yeah. um So these are all denied by the board. In March of 2024, Jeff Landry, who is the governor who comes in as number 57 after John Bel Edwards, he signs a bill into law that authorizes the use of what's known as nitrogen hypoxia.
01:08:04
Speaker
Yeah. and essentially makes legal what would be known as inert gas asphyxiation. And this is a form of asphyxiation which results from breathing a physiologically inert gas when there's no available oxygen or atmospheric air.
01:08:27
Speaker
And you can if you really want to go down a rabbit hole, this has caused a lot of accidental deaths over the years and quite a few deliberate ones as well. So this legislation comes about because Alabama has begun to utilize nitrogen hypoxia.
01:08:46
Speaker
So they're going to fill a chamber full of nitrogen, remove all the oxygen, and it's going to essentially asphyxiate or smother ah the system of whoever they're trying to get rid of.
01:08:59
Speaker
Now, Louisiana, for 14 years, when this is all going on, They've had a moratorium on executions. The last execution that would have been carried out would have been a guy named ah Gerald Bordellin.
01:09:12
Speaker
And at some point we'll talk about him and the murder of Courtney LeBlanc. He was... he was ah put to death in 2010.
01:09:24
Speaker
He's one of the ah people who had been in some of the early lawsuits, but the moratorium is really unofficial. It's because they had trouble obtaining lethal injection drugs.
01:09:36
Speaker
They had this whole debacle we talked about where drug companies would not supply them the drugs. um There were family members who were ah pushing for and against the death penalty along the way.
01:09:49
Speaker
But at this point in time, ah Louisiana passes this new bill allowing alternative execution methods. So and February of 2025, Liz Merrill, who is the Louisiana Attorney General, she announced that the state is resuming executions using nitrogen hypoxia.
01:10:16
Speaker
This execution method had already been used on four prisoners at the time. um that That is solely in Alabama. Jeff Landry confirmed the decision to resume, emphasizing the state's commitment to deliver delivering justice to crime victims after this long hiatus.
Ethical Arguments Against Execution Method
01:10:31
Speaker
By the time they resume, it's been over 15 years. So they start targeting inmates. And on February 12th of 2025, Judge Allen Zunbrocker of the 22nd Judicial District in Louisiana signs a death warrant for Jesse Hoffman and schedules his execution for March 2025. He is executed one day after...
01:10:51
Speaker
he is set to be executed one day after um
01:11:01
Speaker
Christopher Sepovalda is going to be executed by nitrogen hypoxia at the age of 81 on March 17, 2025.
01:11:13
Speaker
Now, that's not how things end up going. ah although Sepulveda's death warrant is signed, he dies of natural causes in prison on February 22nd, 2025.
01:11:27
Speaker
twenty twenty five And the 5th District Court ah ceases everything that was going on in this case, which affects some of the state's execution protocol lawsuits.
01:11:41
Speaker
And... There's an appeal to overturn Judge Shelley Dick's ruling. She chooses to revive the previous lawsuit that had been filed by all of them, stating that the method of nitrogen hypoxia, which was never used before in Louisiana, deserves some level of further scrutiny.
01:12:00
Speaker
um Liz Merrill is the one liz mell is the one who ultimately attempts to ah appeal this ruling. And while all this is going on, we get...
01:12:12
Speaker
a couple of final rulings in Jesse Hoffman's case. So days after ah all of this starts to move forward, we have this death of Christopher Sepoldo.
01:12:27
Speaker
A woman named Cecilia Kappel, who is working as Jesse Hoffman's lawyer, she lodges an appeal to challenge Louisiana's nitrogen gas execution protocols, and she criticizes it.
01:12:41
Speaker
um She points out that she believes that Jesse Hoffman will merely be ah test case for this nitrogen hypoxia method. Several members of ah Jesse Hoffman's family appeal for mercy on his behalf, including his brothers.
01:12:57
Speaker
His older brother, Marvin Fields, states that the crime came as a shock to him because Jesse Hoffman had recently graduated from Kennedy High School. He was working. He stated that his brother had never been a violent person when he was young.
01:13:09
Speaker
ah Their mother, who is, she passed away in 2024, by the way, um had subjected them to a lot of abuse. And he had hoped that his brother could be given some level of second chance.
01:13:21
Speaker
um So they play on these emotions a little bit. And on March 18th, 2025, the sister-in-law of Molly Elliott asked the governor to spare Jesse Hoffman's life and commute his death sentence to life without parole.
01:13:41
Speaker
And she says that the death of Jesse Hoffman will not provide closure to her. While this is going on, an appeal has been submitted to the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Louisiana.
01:13:55
Speaker
And they asked that its death sentence should not be carried out by nitrogen gas. And they asked for a more humane method of execution, which they specify either firing squad or assisted suicide.
01:14:08
Speaker
His lawyers argue that the nitrogen hypoxia will be cruel and unusual, and they point out that ah Jesse Hoffman is a Buddhist and that the manner of execution would ah breach the teachings of Buddhism.
01:14:23
Speaker
So they're saying that it would result in further psychological trauma. On March 11, 2025, there is a state of execution issued for Jesse Hoffman Jr.,
01:14:35
Speaker
and So it bounces up through an emergency appeal session with the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals the very next day. And the argument there is made by the Attorney General, Liz Murrell.
01:14:47
Speaker
She argues that the earlier rulings that led to this, which some of them were in favor of Jesse Hoffman, um they are ultimately in error because cruel and unusual punishment is good enough for Alabama, so it should be good enough for us.
01:15:06
Speaker
You're kidding. Really? Yep. That's the argument that she makes. On March 14th, 2025, the Fifth District Court of Appeals rules in her favor. They overturn the ruling, staying any executions based on giving more scrutiny to nitrogen hypoxia.
01:15:22
Speaker
And they state that it contravened the the Supreme Court's precedent. So Judge James Ho and Judge Andrew Oldham They agreed to overturn the stay.
01:15:33
Speaker
Judge Katharina Haynes dissents. um Judge Ho and Judge Oldham, for their part, state that firing squad would inflict greater pain and possibly psychological trauma compared to nitrogen hypoxia.
01:15:49
Speaker
And while there were differing interpretations of what would have been a violation of the Eighth Amendment banning cruel and unusual punishments, The states need not not necessarily opt for more painful execution methods over less painful ones.
01:16:02
Speaker
Judge Haynes stated that the matter should be scrutinized and basically agreed with Judge Dick. um They said stated that if we execute Jesse Hoffman, it would be impossible to scrutinize this.
01:16:13
Speaker
In the majority opinion, ah Judge Ho points out that Judge Dick had placed undue reliance on the evidence of the defense's hypoxia expert in her own ruling, and cited that based on the prosecutor's expert anesthesiologist, that nitrogen hypoxia did not involve suffering and pain. And he quoted, breathing 100% pure nitrogen causes unconsciousness in less than a minute, with death following but within 10 to 15 minutes.
01:16:41
Speaker
So the date is set for March 18th of 2025, and one last appeal is thrown to the U.S. Supreme Court, and they declined to hear it.
01:16:54
Speaker
So on March 18, 2025, five minutes before the tentative execution timing, the U.S. Supreme Court says they're dismissing the case by a majority vote of five to four.
01:17:06
Speaker
And hours before the scheduled execution, Jesse Hoffman's lawyers appeal to U.S. District Judge Shelley Dick for permission to publicly live stream the upcoming nitrogen gas execution of Jesse Hoffman so as to clear up the conflicting witness accounts of alleged gas for air and involuntary movements that occurred during the previous four executions of people from Alabama.
01:17:34
Speaker
This petition was rejected. On March 17th, 2025, they had multiple appeals rejected and Ultimately, on March 18th of 2025, Jesse Hoffman Jr. was put to death by nitrogen hypoxia at the Louisiana State Prison.
Emotional Impact of Execution
01:17:56
Speaker
before his last Before his execution, Hoffman declined to make any final statements, and he chose no special last meal. He was escorted into the execution chamber at 6.12 p.m.
01:18:09
Speaker
The prison officials released the gas for 19 minutes, and at p.m., Jesse Hoffman was pronounced dead. So he's the first inmate to be executed in Louisiana following 15-year moratorium on capital punishment.
01:18:25
Speaker
They have four more people in line to move executions forward.
01:18:33
Speaker
So that is the episode that I put together about death. What do you think of all that? um I think there's a lot sort of to unpack there. um I just want to double check. Was that the actual thing she said about the Eighth Amendment? Yes. It wasn't a quote. was It was? Which part?
01:18:52
Speaker
That, like, if cruel and unusual punishment is good enough for Alabama, it's good enough for Louisiana. you want the quote. I'll pull you the quote. No, no, no. I don't really care, but, like, does she just imply that?
01:19:04
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Okay, but she didn't say those words. um The quote is a little weird. It's it's pretty close to that. Well, something I read about this, it said something that made me think that I'm not saying anything except...
01:19:20
Speaker
I don't know that it's wrong. It just gave me the impression it might be a little bit skewed because they're like they targeted inmates for execution. And I thought that was a little strange because like these are all like death row inmates.
01:19:33
Speaker
Right, right. I don't know how the process works, who goes first or whatever. But it seemed to me like that might have been a little bit of an overstatement. Yeah, maybe I went too far with that. How about this?
01:19:45
Speaker
Oh, no, you didn't say that. You didn't say it the targeted thing. oh they like I read it somewhere. They have four inmates scheduled to be executed in a short period. But I think there i think the source on that miss misunderstood. It's not just Louisiana.
01:20:02
Speaker
they So Aaron Gunches, Edward Thomas James, and Wendell Grissom were all scheduled to be executed in the same period. think it's a three-day period.
01:20:14
Speaker
um So Gunches is out in Arizona. He was executed on March 19th. Edward Thomas James was out of Rayford, Florida, and has a pretty heinous case attached to him.
01:20:30
Speaker
He was finally executed March 20th. And then i think Wendell Grissom was executed um the same day as Edward Thomas James.
01:20:43
Speaker
And that would have been out of Oklahoma. wow So, yeah, think it's a lot, but go ahead. Well, um so anyway, i I felt like, I do feel like somebody could have said that. I just, I, I feel like that would not be an appropriate argument for a,
01:20:59
Speaker
a state attorney general to make, um it obviously is not okay, right? I mean, if it is what it is. i mean, now a lot of these arguments are sort of circuitous.
01:21:10
Speaker
So, when I look at death penalty cases, um this is sort of, but you know, like I said, a ride the fence on it. I i mean, I can consider a case-by-case basis if I have to, but it just doesn't seem like it would matter a lot of times, and so I don't, you know, I don't.
01:21:26
Speaker
But, One of the things about this case is he never argued actual innocence. and Okay. Except like very briefly before confessed. Right.
01:21:39
Speaker
Yeah. He like, he makes a statement that doesn't, he says that it was consensual. He makes two different statements that like really either minimize or deny the crimes.
01:21:54
Speaker
I mean, does he say, like, I didn't do this? In the first statement, he says he didn't have anything to do with it. In the second statement, he is that's when he says the sex was consensual and the gun just went off.
01:22:06
Speaker
Okay, and as far as I know, it's a little bothersome that there's no DNA. ah Yeah, it could be bothersome. Okay, and then it comes up, I believe, i and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I believe it comes up at some point that he was sentenced to death by an all-white jury. Yeah, that's one of the biggest that's the biggest hang-up next to the type of death itself.
01:22:33
Speaker
Okay, and so when night ah see when was he sentenced? 1998? Yeah. yeah Okay, and i don't know I don't know that I could ever really...
01:22:46
Speaker
determine that it, he wasn't prejudiced by that. Like, I feel like it could, I i actually feel like in depending on circumstances, it could still even happen today. um oh i know I've seen all white juries recently.
01:23:03
Speaker
Well, I know. And, and I would say that hopefully it's fair and impartial. I don't i don't necessarily know that it it would, it matters, but you know, the thought process behind the fact that it,
01:23:16
Speaker
a two-month, he just turned 18 two months ago, and an all-white jury sentences a young black man to death, it is bothersome. Yeah, i I've seen a couple of places, I'll just say this, and like people can think what they want of how I'm saying it.
01:23:34
Speaker
And and like one of these is like really recent. I have seen places in Louisiana and a couple other states where There's like this one area where crimes occur.
01:23:47
Speaker
It's a jurisdiction, it's a parish, it's a county, whatever you want to call it. It is primarily a heavily white district that happens to abut a butt ah district that is largely
01:24:06
Speaker
African-American. But when you look at the African-American community, they're in a secondary jurisdiction. So they're in a separate county, separate parish, just in terms of the way that some states are laid out.
01:24:22
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And what you don't realize is that someone from the the jurisdiction that has a lot more colors to it came over to this jurisdiction that is a lot more white and committed a crime.
01:24:39
Speaker
When you go to actually pick the jury, you're picking from people that are very conservative in some areas and very white. And when that happens and that's who ends up on the jury, if you're wondering if some kind of confirmation bias could occur without anyone, yeah, a hundred percent.
01:24:59
Speaker
Like it could, it could definitely happen. Well, right. And so, because i mean, I don't like that there's no DNA. I, i also, but I am aware of that like, there's no, uh,
01:25:15
Speaker
There's no firm argument of actual innocence, okay? And, you know, that would be important in just, I mean, he has been put to death at this point, so I'm just, you know, saying, like, the things I consider.
01:25:28
Speaker
um There was no actual innocence argument, and he basically confessed that, he But they brought up that he was sentenced to death by an all-white jury. I feel like that could be completely legitimate. It could be, like you said, some sort of confirmation bias.
01:25:46
Speaker
There could be a lot going on there. I don't necessarily think that should be like the only reason ah you know for him to not be put to death unless they can find... I'm just saying it's not beyond me imagining that it could absolutely be, there could be a racist element to it, whether they knew it or not, right? Yeah.
01:26:08
Speaker
His appeals were crazy, right? I mean, I'm not saying they're crazy like they shouldn't have happened. It's just they end up being argued are crazy because – We're talking about, like, you know, do we kill him by ah lethal injection? That's cruel and unusual.
01:26:25
Speaker
Then he gets the epoxy of gas, and that's cruel and unusual. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I realize that all this stuff really does matter. i mean, it really does matter.
01:26:35
Speaker
However, it really doesn't matter either. right the end result is the same. Correct. And, you know, this is, I think this is a good ah example to say,
01:26:51
Speaker
you know, if you feel passionately about the situation, ah if you feel either way, you can look at this particular case and see that there was a governor ah Louisiana who was in office. And at the end of his office, he revealed that he was against the ah putting people to death, and it coincided with a moratorium that the state had put on the death penalty, like sort of unofficially, I guess, partially because of the problem getting drugs to do the lethal injections. And then, you know, I guess there was time where they had to figure something else out or whatever.
01:27:27
Speaker
and But also because the governor signs the death warrant, right? Or the governor is part of that process. Okay. Yes. Yes. and And so because of that, as soon as he was, ah it as soon as somebody else was put into office, that perceived or real moratorium stopped, right?
01:27:47
Speaker
And everybody voted for the governor. i mean I mean, I don't know that a majority voted for him. That's why he won, right? The new governor who decided to put a stop to the moratorium. That's why votes matter, right? Yes. um That's why, you know, if somebody who ah if there was a governor who had replaced the governor who had come out and said, you know, I'm um actually against the death penalty, if somebody with the same similar views had happened, had been elected, you know, it would have been a completely different story. But those are some of the things that matter, right? The other thing is, through all these appeals and then...
01:28:28
Speaker
I feel like victims' families, like in this case, I believe it was the victim's sister. Yes, she comes out. And she says, like, spare his life. It's not going to help me get closure. Okay.
01:28:44
Speaker
I... And granted, i i realize that, you know... It can't be like firmly stated because then you could end up with family members being harassed to somehow come out in support of the person who killed their loved one or whatever.
01:29:01
Speaker
But, you know, putting that aside, i don't know. I feel like that should have a whole lot of weight. Yeah. the The husband here. So, Annie Elliott.
01:29:14
Speaker
Okay, so I didn't see anything about him. Go ahead. He refuses to show support or opposition to the execution. he says he's not going to get closure from it, but at least the process is going to come to an end.
01:29:28
Speaker
Okay, so maybe that outweighed the sister. Yeah, and, you know, it was revealed that he remarried, has kids, and, you know,
01:29:40
Speaker
his life ah he He just wants his life to go on and to not keep being dragged into this process.
Cultural and Legal Controversies
01:29:47
Speaker
I will say one of the interesting things about this particular case, um you get a lot of comparisons here from the Jewish community in Louisiana opposing the idea of using nitrogen gas because And they argued that like elements of the Holocaust, where lethal gas inhalation was a huge part of the decimation of a population, um was was not something they thought the U.S. should go towards.
01:30:22
Speaker
Well, right. And i I mean, I can understand that position. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it, but I certainly understand, you know, I understand that. Yeah, i you know I look at all of this, and at the end of it, I'm still in a position where I have difficulty accepting capital punishment, me personally.
01:30:45
Speaker
um i If there were a case for it, I don't know that this is the one. um I don't know if it is or not because of those questions that you kind of proffered, like, you know was there bias? Like, did it matter?
01:30:59
Speaker
ah Is this the way to put somebody to death? Like, like it's interesting to me. i that, that was correct though about the jury, right? Yeah. The all white jury. Yeah.
01:31:10
Speaker
Yeah. but And I kind of, I saw it and that, but I didn't really look into it all that much. Did, did that go as an issue on appeal? It was one of the issues that's brought up over the, Okay, so it was considered, right? Yeah, it's considered. um it's ah i think I think one of the mistakes made in this case from a legal perspective is that they really jump on the train about the different medication methods.
01:31:37
Speaker
yeah And I feel like that's sort of irrelevant to the cause, right? it is. I do You lose... Some of the abilities, like they don't focus on the clemency. They might have focused on, i mean, there is there are a lot of efforts. Don't get me wrong. But I think once you get on that train, i think people lost some things that might have been a little more valid in this case.
01:32:00
Speaker
And I also feel like, which I'm not actually sure. I'm, you know, I... I give a lot of credit to capital ah ah attorney capital defense attorneys who represent the appeals of people on death row.
01:32:17
Speaker
and But I would say that I feel like ah the manners in which ah the death penalty is...
01:32:28
Speaker
Yeah. yeah ah I didn't mean to pun that, but it I mean, I just can't help it. I don't know how to say it. um I feel like the manners with which the death penalty is carried out, they should be explored and decided on fairly to the recipient.
01:32:49
Speaker
But it really loses ah the actual context of the person appealing their death sentence. Yeah. when all this is coming up. I don't know how else it would be done. I mean, it could be a civil rights thing, I guess, but I still think that would probably have to involve a um ah person sitting on death row.
01:33:07
Speaker
I don't know. That would be, it would be complex legally addressing it otherwise. However, um those are sort of the things that came to mind. ah The age really sticks out to me You know, like, at what, a 28-year-old Jesse Hoffman had done that, right? Yeah. um I do understand there has to be a line.
01:33:30
Speaker
And, you know, he had he was over the line by two months. So there's that. um I hate that this occurred. um I hate that i hate that the that he you know he murdered Molly to begin with.
01:33:45
Speaker
And then this sort of went, it ran its course, and they put him to death. And did you see where,
01:33:57
Speaker
I can't remember. did you say about Did you talk about them petitioning for firing squad or assisted suicide? Yeah. And then the ah trying to get it streamed?
01:34:13
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Yeah, I talked about all those things in the process today. yeah Okay, so sometimes when I read things, i i can't I don't know if I just read it or if you said it. Oh, I know, and I also spring a lot on the script. like I just talk, and it it becomes a thing. um I thought that was kind of interesting. Of course, they deny that. they the you know They're not going to let that be streamed. I don't think that should ever happen, honestly. um but Well, I mean, honestly, if you want to be on the side that like there's supposed to be a defer a deterrent effect of capital punishment, that would be the way to do it. and
01:34:48
Speaker
Yeah, you're right, I guess. But I feel like that would, I mean, yes, I feel like that could be a deterrent. ah I know that our Supreme Court has said that ah people being sentenced to death is part of, you know, deterring capital crimes.
01:35:07
Speaker
They see it as effective somehow. I'm just not so sure. Yeah, ah so a lot of what we pulled today comes from CNN. It comes from the New Orleans Advocate. It comes from a lot of court documents.
01:35:20
Speaker
um Hopefully there'll be a really good expanded wiki on this somewhere that people can go look at. I know that there's a couple of other Louisiana death penalty cases I have on tap for later in the year. um i I have like multiple cases down there I wanted to talk about. used this one today because of the Thomas Sanders case and and kind of wanting to to lead into something since this was a recent execution that had a lot of controversy surrounding
Reflections on Capital Punishment
01:35:48
Speaker
it. Did you have anything else that you wanted to say about this today?
01:35:52
Speaker
um The only thing I would add to sort of wrapping up is I say that I do ride the fence on the death penalty. However, i have to say I've never found any sort of death penalty case, whether it they end up being executed or not, that I'm not absolutely fascinated with.
01:36:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'm fascinated with them. that That's the reason they keep coming up on our show because, you know, it's it is definitely a part of the true crime world that death penalties happen. I feel like a lot of,
01:36:20
Speaker
a lot of times by the time it gets to the execution, people lose the story. Oh, sure. Absolutely. Especially the amount of time that passes. Yeah. And that's one of the things I wanted to highlight was that there are still questions. Like in this case, for me, there's this massive amount of time that's passed because ultimately like we're almost 30 years past this crime.
01:36:39
Speaker
Um, and, and that's always interesting to me. um I do find, uh, Jesse Hoffman to be interesting. I find Molly Elliott to be interesting. And I'd like the way their their lives ah moved on.
01:36:53
Speaker
But I wanted to close out with ah sort of an interesting statement that I pulled from the New Orleans advocate. And we can talk about it or not. This was, it's a different kind of perspective.
01:37:05
Speaker
This comes from Iona. This is Jesse Hoffman's wife. She got married to him after his crime ah while he was in prison.
01:37:16
Speaker
She described him as a beautiful soul and a man of love, wisdom, and redemption. She said he had inspired many around him and stated that it should not be that he is defined by the crime that he committed in 1996.
01:37:33
Speaker
She stated she felt like the system had failed her husband for not intervening when he needed help. This is a reference to neglect and abuse in his childhood and by ultimately executing him.
01:37:46
Speaker
She added that instead of execution, which she viewed as a sign of vengeance, it was true justice to recognize growth, humanity, and redemption.
01:37:59
Speaker
I don't know, you know, how to really argue with what she's saying. I don't know enough about Jesse Hoffman personally, like she most likely would have, but I do know that her words make sense to me.
01:38:13
Speaker
Um, and I do know that like her perspective must be one that is not dissimilar um,
01:38:22
Speaker
Andy Elliott in 1996 when he experienced the death of his spouse. And I'm not saying like they're the same.
01:38:34
Speaker
I'm saying the perspectives would have to have similarities. That's the whole point of the adversarial justice system is that two sides are looking at something and trying to decide what to do with it.
01:38:46
Speaker
Right. And I, I mean, I can absolutely understand her position and, uh, It's heartbreaking, you know, for her, right? Yeah. But at the same time, ah that doesn't really change my position on the rest of it. But I absolutely um sympathize with anybody that's lost somebody they love, right? Yeah.
01:39:06
Speaker
yeah And that's all I have today on this one. Like I said, the death penalty, you stated it fabulously, and that is it fascinates me to no end that you know we do put people to death for, in most cases, having taken the lives of other people.
Conclusion & Call for Support
01:39:26
Speaker
I think that that's almost a requirement, right? Yeah.
01:39:36
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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01:41:00
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.