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Season Six: Evil in the Family
281 Plays21 days ago
Today’s episode is about a shocking older murder. And of course there are some true crime updates.
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Transcript
Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
The Asha Degree Case Update
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:01:01
Speaker
I was sitting here thinking about the fact that we had not yet talked about Asha Degree, and sure enough, like more information is coming out about that case. So at some point, we may do an update on what's going on with her.
00:01:18
Speaker
There's still nothing really firm, i don't think. No, there's not. There's like there's movement, though. And like that is like a reason that I bring her up, is things are happening. That case has got a lot of years on that.
00:01:32
Speaker
It really does, because it's from 2000, right? Yep. And it's some of the stuff that's being released, ah because it's, I guess, public record being used for
Search Warrants and Grand Jury Possibilities
00:01:44
Speaker
probable cause. or I don't actually completely know what the source of it is, but it looks like it's coming from something, right?
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen several search warrant returns and i I'm on a list with the local law enforcement where you can get some of that information. They've been very forthcoming with statements and allowing certain documents to be but duplicated if you're covering the case.
00:02:09
Speaker
um But the search warrant returns coming back, ah it that it it all appears to be kind of going to an investigation that feels like it's advanced beyond like the locals from the perspective of maybe, they're, they might be looking at charges with a grand jury.
00:02:29
Speaker
that's what i the impression I get. Yeah. and so I was like reading through text messages, right. That came from, I guess, search warrants in some capacity. And I couldn't figure out, out of context if,
00:02:46
Speaker
they were important to the case or not, right? They could be, i could make them important to the case, but I could also see where it's more relevant to the situation as opposed to the case, right? Right, yeah. And so i really hope that she is found. I hope they find her. um I think that they were actually searching physical property this week.
00:03:15
Speaker
Yes. Yes, they were. I haven't seen where anything has happened. No, I haven't seen. um Like, I saw it flash in the news. I think you sent me something, too. I think you sent me something.
00:03:29
Speaker
And I briefly went and, like, I looked a little deeper at it. But then I was like, i you know, I'll mention this, but it's not... Not something that I feel like we have like a lot of material to cover. and I did kind of the same thing you did. I looked and i was like, oh, there's text messages.
00:03:46
Speaker
And I put those in context. And i was like, i don't really understand. Well, i'm I'm getting a picture. it just the picture I'm getting, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that...
00:03:57
Speaker
the Because this is a huge case, in my opinion. a little girl, you know, 25 years ago. yeah um and if it shapes up to be what it does, I think I ask you, like, does this mean that, like, true crime only exists in the vacuum of which it's made, right?
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, because we we were talking about that from the perspective of what, like, because so it'll, if she's found, it stops being a missing persons case. And then you kind of focus in on what happened.
00:04:30
Speaker
And because of the nature and the of some of the people that are involved in the search warrant returns, I look at it and I kind of automatically go, well, this feels like.
00:04:44
Speaker
A bad driver. Yeah. Like concealment of an accident because of a bad driver. And I just want to point out. In the event that occurs, like, what on earth were they thinking, like, having this huge 25-year-long missing persons case as opposed to coming forward on an accident?
00:05:04
Speaker
You know, i i don't know all of the circumstances, but I have the same thoughts and questions. If that's the case, we don't know. We don't know if that's the case. But to me, like, I i feel like people, um ah because, you know,
00:05:19
Speaker
That is, yeah accidents happen, right? Yeah. And um I always, we always wondered about this, but my thing was, well, you know, i guess I just couldn't get past the fact like her body would be there, there'd be signs of an accident.
00:05:36
Speaker
And Why on earth would you conceal that? Right. It's already tragic enough that a child was killed by accident yeah after they were running around, you know, in the middle of the night, early morning hours.
00:05:50
Speaker
But at the same time, i So i I don't know. There's just a lot there that I guess I just felt like there's no way anybody would put anybody through that to just conceal an accident. Because honestly, a small child, a smallish child out on the roadway at night, unless there was some like serious intoxication, i don't think the driver would even be charged.
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's the other thing, though, about this case that like even makes me mention it today is like we still have this kid out wandering around at night, whether they've run away or they've got a meeting planned or whatever.
00:06:31
Speaker
um I think that part... That's weird. It's weird. um that led That led me to believe like she had a plan of some sort, right? Yeah.
Karen Reed's Supreme Court Appeal
00:06:42
Speaker
but um Well, along with the updates, I know um we're not covering this case, but I just want to say, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Karen Reed has appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States with regard to her ah right to not endure double jeopardy on her first and third charges.
00:07:03
Speaker
Oh, so let me go ahead and tell everyone how this ends. Writ of Sertoria denied. Right. But in the meantime, they have asked for a stay of the state proceedings and while they decide if they're going to grant Sertoria.
00:07:17
Speaker
And for it. It 149-page filing. boy. Yeah.
00:07:24
Speaker
oh boy And so I haven't read it all, but what I have read, i can see. I honestly feel like this is a stall tactic. A hundred percent. It's not even like, I have a feeling and I think you have the same feeling that um this grift is almost over. and There's some people squeezing really hard though.
00:07:48
Speaker
I won't be surprised if the people in the pink shirts or whatever fade pretty quickly. um But I also will, like, I won't be shocked, and and I've mentioned this to you, i don't think I've mentioned it on here, i won't be shocked if there is not some major legal ramifications in the future of multiple parties in this.
00:08:14
Speaker
I don't know if it'll go to the the depth or level of like a Rico type trial coming up for some of these people where there's like this big fraudulent orchestration of what's happening. Um, but I, I do think, I think there's some wire fraud and harassment and intimidation charges, coming for some people.
GoFundMe Frauds and Legal Ramifications
00:08:40
Speaker
And, um, I believe ah that they will be shocked when it happens, but know that it's a possibility. Because I've seen these GoFundMe frauds over the years. Have you ever seen those? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:08:55
Speaker
I have a feeling this ends like that. I mean, it's possible. And some of this stuff, I realize it's it's so it's ridiculous, right? Okay, except that while I agree it's ridiculous and like people don't need to grift off of it, at the same time,
00:09:12
Speaker
It's happening and it's continuing to happen. And the bottom line of the entire situation is like Karen Reed is essentially trying to bully her way out of having to participate in our justice system for criminal charges.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah. And it it does matter. And if nothing happens to anybody that's participated in any of this, that's not going to be good because that's going to fuel them to do it more.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah. And, like, i I kind of walk around, and and maybe I'm wrong in thinking this. I walk around every day and i think to myself,
00:09:56
Speaker
That the average person watching the Karen Reed trial and being on the side of Karen Reed as a protester probably does not have the understanding of the criminal justice system that they think they do.
00:10:12
Speaker
They don't even have the facts of the case. Yeah. and i i If I were anyone in this situation, and i and you know this, I lean heavy, heavy, heavy for the defense of pretty much anyone on the planet um If I were anyone in this situation on the Karen Reed quote team, I would have proffered.
00:10:35
Speaker
a plea deal at this point that made it impossible for the state to turn it down. And I think your comment was she'll never take a plea. She's too far dug in on all of this, but that's what I would do as a sane person looking to end this because I've never seen a set of judicial resources wasted in the way that it's being wasted on this case.
00:10:59
Speaker
um It is. the And so, I agree with the judicial waste, the judicial resource waste. I don't think they have it to spare, honestly. ah This is happening in Norfolk County in Massachusetts.
00:11:13
Speaker
um I don't think they have it to spare to begin with. But also, the under-informed supporters... It's not just that, like, oh, this is terrible that it's happening to Karen Reed. Like, they're actually, like, blaming the judge, and they're blaming ah the Massachusetts State Police, and then they're blaming the local police. They're blaming a lot of innocent people that are getting a lot of pushback and flack and even, like, threats of, like, violence.
00:11:43
Speaker
And that's unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. And that's the reason they get a mention here is because somebody has to be the same person in the crowd. I actually understand part of the rally and part of the push. Well, sure, because if it was happening, you would want that, right? The problem is it's going to make everything in the future in that area look like this type of conspiracy. Right.
00:12:15
Speaker
And people aren't thinking about that part. Like, there's some really irresponsible faux journalism going on around this case that, like, basically only takes off in certain circles and, like, on X and Reddit and, like, in the local news. And they think they're...
00:12:32
Speaker
They're becoming some kind of phenomenon. But the truth is, like it's a very zeitgeisty thing that's limited to that county in Massachusetts. And the fact that I'm talking about it is really because all I'm getting dribbled down to me that's making me dig into that case is what is wrong with these people.
00:12:57
Speaker
Right. I'm having a fascination with some of the legal maneuvers because we're talking, and I realize that she said that they're pro bono. i I beg to differ, but it doesn't really matter. There's a lot of lying going on in this case that i I cannot help but think there will be multiple people that this is the end of their legal career and they know it. And they they're doing a Hail Mary here because this is all they're going to get.
00:13:22
Speaker
Right. And i I do feel like they're somehow financially
Karen Reed's Legal Tactics and Motivations
00:13:26
Speaker
benefiting. And I do feel like they're doing things that we don't get to see a whole lot um as far as like public defenders taking on big cases.
00:13:34
Speaker
ah that The stakes of this case are high at this point. um She's more than likely, ah if she were to be convicted of second degree murder, it's life in prison with the possibility of parole after maybe like 15 or 20 years.
00:13:49
Speaker
yeah And so it's, you know, these are high stakes. However, she put herself in this position. she could have been in a very different position and she could probably almost have done her sentence by now if she had been honest. us um I'm just saying. Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
And, you know, again, i come from a defense perspective. I get it, but you you cross a line from zealousness to, you fantasy and it can be very difficult to um come back yeah but also to admit survive the legal ramifications of said fantasy right and uh i want to point out i had no opinion of this case until i watched the trial
00:14:38
Speaker
i I just, yeah I feel like that's relevant. I'm not somebody that's like um anti ah Karen Reed or whatever. i didn't, I didn't care about this case at all. I didn't want to know anything about it.
00:14:52
Speaker
And I had absolutely no idea really what was going on until I watched the entire first trial, which ended in a mistrial. I formed my opinion after that. And i am very, very sure that she is guilty.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I actually get sort of heartburn from the mockery that her defense team is making of the justice system. Yeah. So anyway, but I only brought it up because they did file with SCOTUS and that's highly unlikely it's going to go anywhere, but they are trying to get the state proceeding stayed. And it's really weird because they were picking a jury this week. So i think they were 10 deep even. and We'll see. And once the jury is sworn,
00:15:38
Speaker
if the trial has to stop for any reason, like she can't be tried again. Yeah. Unfortunately, like the only thing that attracted me to this case was whether or not there was an actual police conspiracy going on. And once I sort of realized that that was all made up, um, but that was it for me. Like, i like, and, and I have been, I've been watching it, but I've been watching it. Like you watch it a,
00:16:04
Speaker
car wreck. It's like, can I help anything here? Like, is, did anybody die? And like, you know, in this case, yes. Like, uh, there's a clear person who suffered because of the actions of another.
00:16:18
Speaker
And like, then there's an entire group of people that have continued to suffer from the same person's actions. Correct.
00:16:29
Speaker
And, and they have help. Yeah, and also, I did watch the little HBO documentary on this case, and I just have to tell you that in terms of, like, a delusional main character syndrome type person, the defendant here, like...
00:16:49
Speaker
you This is a nightmare defendant for any legal team. It just happens that this legal team has the same set of delusions that the person that's their client does.
00:17:03
Speaker
Well, unfortunately, i feel like this has been an act the whole time. I feel like... everybody's aware. and I think that the prerogative is literally just to keep her from paying for what she did, which was having a tantrum and hitting her boyfriend and leaving him to freeze to death with a head injury in the snow.
00:17:22
Speaker
See, I think there's a different prerogative going on. They want to make money and get rich and like become famous. And there's not anything else in their life that's going to do that for them. So this is all they have to hold on to.
00:17:35
Speaker
that's That's really awful. um i yeah and That could be the case. um It seems ah a bridge too far. but It is, but we're talking about it. so and You know what I mean? like I know. and I don't even know. Wait, you think I went a bridge too far or they're going a bridge too far? They are going a bridge too far.
00:17:56
Speaker
As far as like picking on the family and everything, accusing minors, yeah like all this stuff happening, it's just too much. And it's it's baffling to me.
00:18:10
Speaker
it's It's a baffling case. i was Like i said, like it was so interesting when I thought there was this massive conspiracy. But when the conspiracy stopped making sense, like it's just a boring, run-of-the-mill thing.
00:18:26
Speaker
homicide by vehicle, whether it's a reckless homicide or second degree murder or a first degree or whatever. you know, it's essentially a vehicular homicide that like, for some reason they really don't want you to think is a vehicular homicide.
00:18:39
Speaker
So she doesn't go to jail. What do you mean? they they, they want her not to go to jail. This is the worst way to make someone not go to jail. Well, I know, but like they don't even want her to do five-year sentence for involuntary vehicular manslaughter or whatever. like They don't want her to go to jail at all. she doesn't She's entitled to not go to jail in her own like main character syndrome mind. Well, whoever is doing their marketing for them, and I know they've hired at least three marketing for firms, maybe four, um they should probably all go to jail.
00:19:14
Speaker
um And then on top of that, I would say... whoever their cost benefit of analysis person is on their team, if they have one, like the person who's like, now we cut bait, like that person should be replaced with someone who knows how to do their job.
00:19:31
Speaker
Well, this, uh, this group is cobbled together to begin with. And, uh, you know, they missed that memo. Huh? They missed that memo that they needed a cost benefit person on the team.
00:19:44
Speaker
I think that, yeah, I don't know that anybody sent the memo. But there's even infighting, like, so it's just, it's really bizarre. And I don't know... um I will just say that the judge is doing a really good job in this case. I realize that there's, you know, everybody's screaming corruption and cover up.
00:20:08
Speaker
ah That is not what's happening here. You know how they say some people get 15 minutes of fame? Yeah. I think these people have about 15 minutes of freedom left.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's actually a good way to look at it because ah the everybody who's being put down in this situation is actually like the good guys. And I don't say that lightly, okay? They're turning the other cheek. They absolutely are. And they're tolerating it patiently, right?
00:20:39
Speaker
Probably with more patience and grace that than I could if I were in their position, okay? Yeah. and uh bev canoni is trying her best to make sure karen reed gets a fair trial yep and it i do realize when you start it's very hard to get into a conversation with a somebody who wants karen reed free but i just want to point out she's not in jail okay yeah free karen reed is kind of a misnomer And I mean, but it fits situation. She, she walks into a parade to court every day. She is not in jail.
00:21:16
Speaker
However, when you talk to people, if they engage, you realize very quickly, they don't have the facts. And then they've got these talking points that they just hurl at you and they won't listen. And they immediately turn to personal attacks.
00:21:29
Speaker
Yeah. Which is crazy to me because like, you know, debate people by personally attacking them. i and we We live in a very different world right now. I do i don't know.
00:21:41
Speaker
i don't know how we end up in this situation. Well, I am interested to see what happens. ah This could literally be, if it were to work. So the stakes are, if you can bully your way out of criminal charges, it could make a difference. um And our powers that be, as far as like judicial ah conduct rules,
00:22:07
Speaker
as What would it be for lawyers? Like a reprimand or losing their life? No, like the ethical board or whatever. They're all going to have to come. It would be the bar.
00:22:20
Speaker
Okay, but but it's a little bit more than that. But whatever. They're they're going to have rein in the rules, right? Yeah. um and And this type of thing is the type of thing to do it. now Now, Karen Reed thinks that she...
00:22:36
Speaker
shouldn't go and yet i I can't say I necessarily blame her. What she did was really stupid. However, it happened. The less people you can take down with you, though, that's always the way to go. Well, realize like one of the things that's attracting certain people to this case is one of the attorneys, Alan Jackson, he bears like a resemblance to a character off of the TV show that popped over the last two years, Suits.
00:23:05
Speaker
And he basically looks like he could be Mike from Suits, evil older brother. And people don't realize that's why that they're ah like listening to him.
00:23:20
Speaker
um But you know people do have to differentiate the fantasy from the reality, and they're having some difficulty doing that. But the other thing that you have to consider, say on some unicorn level, this SCOTUS petition for Satoria is successful.
00:23:37
Speaker
When they lose, which they will, it has the potential detrimental effect of affecting double jeopardy in America in a time when we seem to be throwing certain rules out the window.
00:23:52
Speaker
And double jeopardy is something that has been ah very unique American thing. And we're basically looking at the potential for a ruling here that to defend this terrible person in Massachusetts.
00:24:12
Speaker
You know how, like... If you're in a situation that you didn't know what to do and you go to an expert, like, so let's say you're charged with a criminal charge.
00:24:23
Speaker
You go to an attorney, you're like, I need you to help me. i want you to do everything you can to keep me out on jail. And you actually believe that they are doing stuff to help you, right? Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
You're paying them money and they're doing stuff. Well, the little bit that I did read of the scaredest petition Like the attorneys have to know that this, even if it were to be heard, it will be ruled against, but cause they're not even making an argument that makes it an arguable thing. They're just going through the motion. I feel like in collecting money.
00:24:58
Speaker
yes And a lot of the appellate. ah So if you're depending on where you're at in life, you would take a losing of,
00:25:10
Speaker
just to get the ah infamy or whatever it would be yeah associated with bringing the case. And I feel like that's where they're at, but I don't know that Karen realizes this.
00:25:21
Speaker
I don't think that Karen realizes which socks she put on this morning. That's entirely possible. There's a ruling from 1992, and I swear we have a case today. we will get to that.
00:25:33
Speaker
It's called the United States versus Felix. It was one of the last major rulings related to the Fifth Amendment.
The Felix Case: Methamphetamine Production
00:25:41
Speaker
um Not the last, but it was a major ruling.
00:25:45
Speaker
um Back in 1987, so it took multiple years for it to get to where it got, there was a man named Frank Felix, and he had been illegally manufacturing methamphetamine ah in Oklahoma.
00:26:00
Speaker
So they shut down the facility where he's making his drugs. They raid it with federal agents. um They seize a bunch of, at the time, what was known as precursor materials.
00:26:15
Speaker
And these are the materials that you use to make methamphetamine. A month later, he gets arrested DEA agents, so also federal agents, in a separate location in Joplin, Missouri.
00:26:28
Speaker
And he is arrested with chemicals and equipment that appear that, like, even though he had been raided the first time in Oklahoma, he has now just moved over to Missouri and has just started to continue to produce methamphetamine.
00:26:43
Speaker
So he ends up charged in the United States District Court for the Western District of Missouri. There, he's indicted for attempting to manufacture controlled substance. So at trial, he presents this defense that he never had any criminal intent.
00:26:58
Speaker
And he tells the court through his attorneys that he had believed the whole time he had been working undercover for the DEA. So the prosecutors present evidence of the Oklahoma problem back in 1987 as essentially a way to counter this argument that he thought he was working for the DEA.
00:27:23
Speaker
So introducing the evidence of the Oklahoma methamphetamine labs gets him convicted in the federal case in Missouri. So in 1989, the Eastern District of Oklahoma looked at it all, and they indict Felix and multiple other parties for their roles in the methamphetamine labs that they had been running in Oklahoma.
00:27:48
Speaker
This indictment included the charges of manufacturing and possessing methamphetamine with the intent to distribute. At trial, the prosecutors there reverse what the prosecutors did at the first trial, and they use the evidence from the trial in Missouri.
00:28:07
Speaker
Felix, Frank Felix, he's found guilty on all counts. So he then, through his lawyers, goes to the Tenth Circuit, and he says, look, This shouldn't have happened.
00:28:20
Speaker
So a divided panel ends up ruling in favor of Frank Felix, and they say this should not have happened. They are relying on an older ruling. it's ah By the time it all got there, I think they were maybe relying on Grady versus Corbin. I'd have to look that up.
00:28:37
Speaker
But the concept was that his Fifth Amendment rights had been violated. And the way they had been violated was the subsequent prosecution, meaning the Oklahoma prosecution by the feds, was barred by the Double Jeopardy Clause.
00:28:58
Speaker
And if the if the government needed to establish an essential element of an offense, was using evidence from a court where the defendant had already been prosecuted.
00:29:13
Speaker
Not exactly what's happening with Karen Reed, but this is, like I said, the last major Fifth Amendment holding. So the 10th Circuit says they can't do that. But then it goes to the Supreme Court.
00:29:25
Speaker
And in that case, the petition for Satori was granted. And they heard it. And the holding there was that the double jeopardy clause did not bar Frank Felix from being prosecuted on either side of that, meaning.
00:29:43
Speaker
it's two different situations. Well, it is two different situations, but they did use evidence from both situations. But ultimately, it was in the wording of the indictments. In one indictment, he was being prosecuted for manufacturing methamphetamine. And in the other indictment, he was being prosecuted for the conspiracy to do the same.
00:30:07
Speaker
So it was two different crimes, right? Right. So in theory, if they really want to get the Supreme Court's attention, She could end up being prosecuted by Massachusetts for what she's being prosecuted right now, and then afterwards, with the exact same evidence, be prosecuted for the conspiracy to commit those crimes.
Supreme Court Ruling on Double Jeopardy
00:30:29
Speaker
And, like, that's allowed. At least according to the 10th Circuit. I don't know if it's been held over. and I have not looked at Massachusetts where they fall in the circuits. But anyway. Well, keep just keep in mind, the only thing that's on trial right this second um is about the first trial with the first and third count. And so there's a lot of conspiracy type stuff I think is going to come later.
00:30:56
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure. im i you know and Another reason like I even entertain this case a little bit is because while it is nonsense, it is nonsense that will in some ways live on for some period of time, similar to how Delphi has a life of its own. And even though the um Idaho University killings have not yet gone on trial, it has sort of a life of its own. The Karen Reed trial certainly has a life of its own.
00:31:22
Speaker
Right, and i and I feel like it's a good example to sort of put my two cents in where I am a firm believer in the most zealous defense a defense team can give a defendant.
00:31:36
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. But there's a line. i look Karen Reed crossed it, and here's why. Because she drug so many innocent people over.
00:31:47
Speaker
through through circumstances that they shouldn't have been brought through. yeah and that's one of the key rules in my in my job.
00:32:00
Speaker
The suggestion of someone else's involvement is one thing. Proof of someone else's involvement is acceptable. You know, i think the the main thing is the... ah i how do I put this?
00:32:16
Speaker
Getting ah the media to have support rally around those she accused. If they had just print if they have just presented it in court, nobody would care, for one thing.
00:32:32
Speaker
took the overt rallying parade garbage that she has paid for, right? Correct. And we now have, you know, there's been evidence that she she conspired and paid for that stuff.
00:32:47
Speaker
You know, whether it's a crime or not, that would be for the courts to decide someday. But, you know, once you squeeze the toothpaste out, yeah you can't get it back in And it's ah it's a big problem because the lines that were crossed, that's actually, in my opinion, what a defense attorney should know better than to do.
00:33:10
Speaker
Well, I will say that they've done something interesting and they've risked what the boundaries of content creation are and they don't even know it.
00:33:21
Speaker
So because of some other things that have happened and some other people that are involved in this case that really have no business, like they have no concept of ethics or journalism or like what content creation is meant to be.
00:33:36
Speaker
They're really kind of rage baiters. um Because of those people being involved in this case, there's a strong possibility that some of what comes out of this case in the end down the road, depending on how...
00:33:52
Speaker
potential federal charges go related to the myriad of yeah fundraising, et cetera. I'm not saying that is going to happen. I'm saying it's a strong possibility here, but there's a possibility that like we end up with a case that for the first time in many, many, many years could potentially curtail the definition of the first amendment, including true crime and including how,
00:34:21
Speaker
It could potentially include how content creators are held responsible for the content they create.
First Amendment and Content Creation
00:34:26
Speaker
Right. And i Everyone should be scared of that.
00:34:32
Speaker
ah Well, a little bit, but also i already feel like I need to be responsible. Right. And I can't. ah fathom a situation where I would not be responsible. Like I would just say you know, who cares? I'm just going to put this out there. Right.
00:34:52
Speaker
But that's what a grifter is. And that's like literally all that's covering this in a way to bolster, you know, freeing the already free Karen Reed, right? yeah And so it's, i I don't know that curbing that is really, i don't know that that would really be damaging the First Amendment, but that's a whole different discussion.
00:35:20
Speaker
i'm not saying necessarily damaging it as much as defining it. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, obviously it's constantly being defined. I don't know that some of the behavior that's been, you know, well, videoed, we've seen it, um happening here. i don't know that it's a valid First Amendment argument to begin with.
00:35:41
Speaker
No, it hasn't. There's been charges levied against appropriate parties involve intimidation and and other tampering of witnesses that they seem appropriate.
00:35:52
Speaker
and Right. And it's the, I'm a journalist, First Amendment rights, that's garbage. and i don't think it's garbage. i think I think that, so what I'm saying is, the definition of who is and who isn't a journalist may change because of kate potential cases arising from Karen Reed movement.
00:36:17
Speaker
You're right. um But I don't I don't see how it is. The real journalist? No. I mean, a real journalist doesn't do that kind of thing. Yeah.
00:36:30
Speaker
And they can still they can still take an opposite ah adversarial position and not do what's been happening. Exactly. And that's my point. Like, that's why I'm saying I don't think that is actually a real challenge because of the implications of what that would mean, like, across the United States if it were to be allowed.
00:36:53
Speaker
Like, oh, yeah, you can do that. Well, you're going to have real journalists aren't going to do that to begin with. Right. And so you're going to have riffraff, right? Right. Like yelling at people on megaphones. That's what's going to happen. Anyway, I spent way too much time on this case today. I apologize to people that listened us. Well, I was really interested in the the thing, that how it's progressing. And I'm going to give another update when I figure out what happens with that.
00:37:21
Speaker
so Okay. Fair enough. Just the filings. Okay. So I pulled i pulled a case today to talk about that's not like the longest case on the planet.
00:37:32
Speaker
um But it still has had updates. Although when I read the updates, I think I read them in summer of 2024. And I was like, why is this an update? And we'll get to why.
00:37:44
Speaker
um But there were, there's this period of time in this area we're going to be talking about where they have a lot of homicides and it's, it's this very narrow window and it was very unusual for them um at the time that all of this happened. But basically if you If you look at, ah think it's five months in 1995, they end up having 14 or 15 homicides in this area, where in the past they've averaged one or two a year.
00:38:15
Speaker
And um that was kind of striking to me.
The Freeman Family Murders
00:38:20
Speaker
um But we're going to be talking about a couple out of Salisbury Township, Pennsylvania,
00:38:28
Speaker
And so specifically, this is all taking place in Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. yeah um This couple, but one of them works as a ah local high school janitor.
00:38:40
Speaker
By all accounts, they appear to be Jehovah's Witnesses. and Jehovah's Witnesses is probably its own true crime podcast series. um i'm And I'm not saying that to offend anyone. I'm just saying the level of...
00:38:54
Speaker
news and information and controversies attached to it would be interesting. I think um it's one of those newer religions um that if if you dig into it, it has very large number of followers.
00:39:12
Speaker
um And I find it fascinating. So this couple, Dennis and Brenda, they are Jehovah's Witnesses. Now,
00:39:24
Speaker
They have children. They have three sons. um One of their sons is named Brian, and then they have a son named David, and then they have a son named Eric.
00:39:35
Speaker
Now, in terms of age, Brian's the oldest, David's the middle son, and Eric is the youngest. And according to court records, Brian and David do not care to be Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:39:54
Speaker
um I went back to an article from, I think this is going to be the Observer Reporter. I found a September 7th, 1995 article that's going to come up here as like one of our sources.
00:40:10
Speaker
But it basically says that um by the time we meet some of these brothers, they are deep into being neo-Nazis.
00:40:26
Speaker
And it
00:40:30
Speaker
may be a reaction to the Jehovah's Witness lifestyle of the parents, but I don't i think that's more of a defense attorney throwing what might work at the wall.
00:40:43
Speaker
According to Friends of Brenda Freeman, by February 1995, she was genuinely scared she was genuinely scared of the older two Sodomans.
00:40:55
Speaker
This is Brian and David. Brian and David had shaved their heads and they had taken to wearing military uniforms. By all accounts, Brian had the word berserker tattooed across his forehead and David had the words Sig Heil tattooed just above his eyebrows.
00:41:20
Speaker
Sig Heil has come back in the news recently. it was the Nazi salute specifically to Adolf Hitler.
00:41:33
Speaker
Leading up to February of 1995, all through 1994, Brenda had been telephoning counselors and local doctors, including psychologists, to ask for advice.
00:41:47
Speaker
A local police agency at the time ran something called an anti-skinhead education session. And she managed to convince Brian and David to attend this.
00:42:01
Speaker
But ultimately, this seemed to just entrench them even more in the culture, and they dug into it.
00:42:10
Speaker
Brian, the oldest, had been admitted to a hospital for mental illness. And David had spent multiple stints in juvenile facilities.
00:42:20
Speaker
He had also been put into juvenile rehab um as sort of an effort to keep him from abusing the drugs and alcohol that he was abusing at the time.
00:42:33
Speaker
According to the township police, there were five visits to the family home between 1993 and 1995, and don't believe that. and i don't believe That includes the February 1995 visit.
00:42:49
Speaker
At one point, police were there investigating whether Brian had threatened to kill his parents during a heated verbal ah altercation over using the family car.
00:43:04
Speaker
b Brian had also been suspended from Salisbury High School ah in February of 1995.
00:43:13
Speaker
for drawing racist pictures in a book at school.
00:43:19
Speaker
So on February 26, Brian is 17 years old, David is 16. And they, along with their 18-year-old cousin, Ben Birdwell, they all go to the Freeman family home.
00:43:38
Speaker
All accounts seem to point to the three of them having been out at the movies together, And when they return home, there's an argument with Brenda. So Brenda, b Brian, and David are fighting about Ben being allowed in the house.
00:43:56
Speaker
So Brenda is coming down the stairs to have more forceful conversations with her sons. And 17-year-old Brian grabs a hold of her and wedges a pair of shorts into her mouth.
00:44:11
Speaker
to act as a gag. He then using a steak knife from the family kitchen, repeatedly stabs her until she is dead.
00:44:23
Speaker
At the same time he's doing this, 16-year-old David and 18-year-old Ben, they go upstairs to their parents' bedroom, where Dennis Freeman is asleep in bed.
00:44:38
Speaker
And using an aluminum baseball bat and a metal exercise bar, they beat Dennis to death.
00:44:48
Speaker
They then moved down the hallway to 11-year-old Eric's room. And there, David and Ben hit him repeatedly with a three-foot pickaxe handle.
00:45:03
Speaker
They never clarify exactly who... was responsible for Eric's death, but he does die from this attack. The three of them then steal a 12-gauge shotgun from the home.
00:45:20
Speaker
They go downstairs and they steal Brenda's 1988 Pontiac convertible and they flee the home.
00:45:30
Speaker
The following day, on February 27th, Dennis Freeman's sister, Valerie, comes to their home and she discovers first Brenda, then Eric, and then Dennis' bodies.
00:45:44
Speaker
Coroners in Allentown, Pennsylvania would describe the killings as one of the most heinous and brutal acts of murder that they had ever seen. The district attorney at the time was a guy named Bob Steinberg.
00:45:57
Speaker
He described the murders as brutal. He said the faces of Dennis and Eric had been beaten and bludgeoned so badly that they were nearly beyond recognition.
00:46:12
Speaker
So the brothers, Brian and David and Ben, they flee in the state of Michigan and they go to Hope, they flee the state of Pennsylvania and they go to Hope, Michigan to the home of a man named Frank Hess.
00:46:28
Speaker
Frank Hess was allegedly also a neo-Nazi and was an associate of these boys. Apparently, they had all met at New Year's Eve concert, and they had exchanged phone numbers.
00:46:40
Speaker
Three days after the murders had occurred, the boys are all arrested. Now, they come back to Pennsylvania, and the legal proceedings begin.
00:46:56
Speaker
The oldest son, 17-year-old Brian, he pleads guilty to Brenda's murder. to avoid being sentenced to death.
00:47:09
Speaker
David, who is the middle son, he pleads guilty to the murder of Dennis. So his dad. Basically, they take responsibility for their parents' murders.
00:47:24
Speaker
Ben is tried for all three murders. He's convicted of the murder of Dennis Freeman because DNA testing matches blood from a t-shirt that Ben had as belonging to Dennis Freeman.
00:47:43
Speaker
None of the three are convicted for Eric's murder.
00:47:49
Speaker
Brian confessed that the murders had come from years of ongoing problems between the brothers and their parents. So all three of these guys were,
00:48:01
Speaker
are going to end up sentenced life without the possibility of parole.
00:48:11
Speaker
So it comes out during sentencing that they're not actually part of a specific neo-Nazi group. It comes out that they were planning on forming their own group.
00:48:24
Speaker
Valerie Freeman testifies that she had noticed that Brian and David's behavior had begun to ah change She noticed that they were more defiant with their parents and more combative.
00:48:37
Speaker
um But ultimately, that's sort of where like we end part of this story. But again, between January and May of 1995, in this area, there are a total of 14 homicides.
00:48:56
Speaker
When Brian... when bryan David and Ben are captured on March 2nd, 1995. They have another double homicide and on March 3rd.
00:49:13
Speaker
This is when 17-year-old named Jeffrey Howarth kills his parents, George and Susan, with a hunting rifle.
00:49:24
Speaker
He waits at home for his parents to return, and then separates them and murders them. He flees the area and ends up being arrested the next day, March 4th, 1995, when he's apprehended in Missouri after his car runs out of gas.
00:49:48
Speaker
At trial, it's learned that Jeffrey had been inspired to commit the crime after hearing local news about the Freeman family,
00:49:59
Speaker
murders. At some point, Jeffrey even wrote a note in which he appears to reference those crimes.
Jeffrey Howarth Case
00:50:09
Speaker
He also is going to go on trial in 1995, except he's found not guilty by reason of insanity, and he's acquitted of the killings of his parents.
00:50:23
Speaker
As far as I can tell, as far as I can tell, Jeffrey Haworth is still committed involuntarily uh, Warrensville state hospital as a ward of the state, so to speak. So he's never recovered capacity, in terms of his mental health.
00:50:51
Speaker
Had you ever heard of these before? no I had never heard of them. um I thought this was interesting because it's such a strange time in the mid-90s for this kind of murder to occur.
00:51:06
Speaker
um not that like there aren't other um sort of family homicides or family annihilators who are children killing their parents.
00:51:18
Speaker
i I think this one in particular... deserved little bit of attention. Now, it pops back in the news, like I said, in 2024. I've actually read a book on this before.
00:51:31
Speaker
um think he passed away during maybe COVID. But Fred Rosen wrote a book about these murders called Blood Crimes. um There are a ton of articles, if anyone is on newspapers.com, about ah these brothers and and what they did to their parents and their little brother.
00:51:53
Speaker
um there's actually quite a bit about Jeffrey, uh, Howarth as well, but I wanted to talk about it from the perspective of the neo-Nazi stuff. Um, and then talk a little bit about the more recent stuff, uh, that's happened in this case.
Analyzing the Freeman Murders
00:52:08
Speaker
So first of all, these are sort of bizarre anger murders, right? i don't find them that bizarre. Um, I think that something to be considered here is,
00:52:21
Speaker
when Well, I am a parent now, but I was also a child. And as a parent, ah learning from things from my childhood, I realized that like one of the best things you can do for your children is to teach them to make their own decisions.
00:52:39
Speaker
yeah and And the event that you have taken on which there's nothing wrong with it for for yourself, but i mean they took on an orthodox...
00:52:51
Speaker
a what what was the religion? I'm sorry, Jehovah's Witness. They took on this Orthodox Jehovah's Witness lifestyle and it essentially set them apart from everybody because of um like what another source that i had looked into this case on it was talking about how they didn't celebrate their birthday. They didn't celebrate any holidays.
00:53:15
Speaker
um It was a very, it was a very strict, a way of interpreting being part of that religion for this family, right? Right. And it
00:53:31
Speaker
is obviously, like, if you've chosen to do that for yourself, that's one thing. But if you're forcing someone else to do it, that's a completely different thing. yeah And so that's why I don't think it's that bizarre. I feel like this is actually sort of a natural reaction to like, putting on you know, your teenage sons because they couldn't play sports. They couldn't, like, there was all these rules. And it didn't leave them much...
00:54:00
Speaker
to have any sort of outlet right yeah and they didn't get along well to begin with and i'm not knocking like the parents were you know they should do whatever they want obviously but part of being a parent is seeing how things are reflecting on your children and how that's affecting them and I would say that it wouldn't be healthy, ah but obviously people can make their own decisions, but you have to keep things in mind. And I think sometimes when you're like doing it for God or whatever, yeah it can be harder to say like, oh, well, yeah, we can't just like, you know, lock them up in cages. Right.
00:54:45
Speaker
it's It's harder to say, oh maybe this is a little too extreme. Right. I can see where they got really angry. Well, they also, like puberty had hit these boys. Exactly. They were big boys. So Brian, at the time they arrest him, he is right between six feet, six feet one.
00:55:11
Speaker
And according to Newsweek, they had this one article they did back in 95 about them. He weighed around 220 pounds, which is not small for a teenager at all.
00:55:25
Speaker
um His younger brother, ah who in the pictures, he looks a lot younger than Brian, but he was six foot three and 245 pounds, which is a little shorter than me, but a lot heavier than me. And like that, like I can't imagine what being 16 year old,
00:55:47
Speaker
And being that size would be like where you're like up against your parents um They have no police record the boys don't at the time, but they did have um a history of like I mentioned some middle illness stuff going on with Brian he was thought to have been bipolar and he was refusing to take Lithium which probably would have helped the situation to some degree. I don't know how you do that to a teenager Oh, and you know you mentioned their size and they did, they used a knife on their mother, but the father was beaten to death and their younger brother was beaten to death, right?
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah. So that's a big factor, right? That's a lot of anger. That's a lot of anger. i am I don't have a ton more on them. I was just kind of bringing them up from the perspective of, so we come out of the satanic panic, right?
00:56:43
Speaker
Right. And we kind of move to the situation where Like, the satanic panic came at a time where we had just gotten out of communist panic. Like, moral panic.
00:56:55
Speaker
You know what I mean? Yeah, i don't have the I don't have the best timeline on it, but I am aware, yeah, that like it happened. yeah So this is like, for all intents and purposes, like, even though there's older versions of satanic panic, the peak a satanic panic where you have experts coming out of the woodwork and writing about like all these crazy stories was the eighties.
00:57:25
Speaker
Yes. and it had literally sort of gone its own version of viral. i mean, when I go back and and read about it, I think where I call the end of satanic panic, sort of in the U S at least,
00:57:45
Speaker
is like something we've talked about before, which is the but Martinsville satanic sex scandal. And it's like, by the time this event occurs, that sex scandal is in the last gasp of like the convictions being overturned and like people realizing that we can't interview children that way.
00:58:07
Speaker
i think it juxtaposes interestingly against these teenagers here. um they get sort of a break, and that break comes from Miller v. Alabama, um which I think we talked about before, but are you familiar?
00:58:30
Speaker
of course, yeah. Okay, so Miller versus Alabama is an Eighth Amendment case that like has a substantial effect on on how juveniles are treated.
00:58:42
Speaker
The way that that case goes is, Sometimes when the district courts, um the US s district courts rule one way or another, things can be consolidated up into the Supreme Court and Miller versus Alabama is one of those types of cases.
00:59:01
Speaker
So it's technically based on two cases. One of those is Jackson versus Hobbs and the other is millow Miller versus Alabama. um Jackson is a November 1999
00:59:15
Speaker
this kid named control Jackson, he goes into a video store in Arkansas and he's, so he's there with two other teenagers that are planning to rob it.
00:59:26
Speaker
So control Jackson's job is that he's going to, once they like make sure the store is clear, he steps outside and ultimately he's the lookout.
00:59:38
Speaker
One of the kids inside of the store pulls a gun and ends up killing the store clerk. Now, Jackson had waited outside the store for a significant period of time, but he had gone inside just before one of the other kids, a kid named Derek Shields, had shot the clerk.
00:59:58
Speaker
So there's some debate in the language of his case where um he either says to his accomplices, we ain't playing, or i thought you all was playing.
01:00:13
Speaker
Now, Contrell is not a shooter, but he's charged as an adult in that situation, and because of the situation surrounding the death of a clerk, he's given a life term without parole in Arkansas.
01:00:26
Speaker
So that's Jackson versus Hobbs. The other case Miller versus Alabama. Evan Miller, he ends up being convicted of a July 15, 2003 murder, where when he's 14 years old, he and another boy mark where when he's fourteen years old he and another boy set fire to a trailer where they went to buy drugs.
01:00:50
Speaker
So the story was that the neighbor, Cole Cannon, had fallen asleep, and Evan Miller, who's 14, and Colby Smith had been there ah drinking and smoking weed.
01:01:09
Speaker
According to the story, Cole Cannon wakes up, And he catches Evan Miller putting his wallet back.
01:01:21
Speaker
The friend, Colby Smith, hits Cole Cannon in the head with a baseball bat. Evan Miller picks the bat up and continues beating on Cole Cannon.
01:01:35
Speaker
So they leave. But they come back a little later on. because Colby Smith and Evan Miller have the bright idea that they need to destroy the evidence of what they've done to Cole Cannon.
01:01:48
Speaker
So between his injuries and smoke inhalation, Cole Cannon dies. And about three and a half years later, on October 20th, 2006, Evan Miller, who, you know, this crime is from when he was 14, he's given life without parole.
01:02:08
Speaker
And Colby Smith, he sentenced a week later to life with parole. The holding there was that the Eighth Amendment would prohibit a sentencing scheme that would require life in prison without the possibility of parole for juvenile homicide offenders.
Miller v. Alabama and Juvenile Sentencing
01:02:33
Speaker
The majority of the opinion is written by Justice Elena Kagan. ah There were The dissent was voiced by ah Justice John rob Roberts at the time, who would have been the chief justice. There was a separate ah dissent that was filed by Samuel Alito.
01:02:49
Speaker
ah For differing reasons, um they end up determining that Miller v. Alabama, ah when they sort of clarify it in a ruling called Montgomery versus Louisiana, they determine that Miller versus Alabama is applied retroactively.
01:03:11
Speaker
So do you understand like the concept there? I do. Okay. It means that everybody who was a juvenile and faced a mandatory minimum of life in prison now has to have, they have to be resentenced. Yeah. So in Montgomery versus Louisiana, he had been in prison since 1963. It was a murder he had committed.
01:03:36
Speaker
I think he was 16 turning 17. And the court said that like they could undertake resentencing and that it would probably affect around 20 to 2300 cases.
01:03:48
Speaker
um but then they were i I think it honestly came about because of um Roper versus Simmons. They were looking at Lee Boyd Malvo. I do remember the sniper case, right? Yeah. um So he had been sentenced in a way under, like he was going to be sentenced under the concept of capital murder. But essentially capital murder can result in the death penalty. That's why it's called capital murder.
01:04:21
Speaker
um Leiboyd Malvo had been sort of out of contention for that because of another ruling that doesn't really come to play here. But they ended up looking at Satoria on a case called Jones v. Mississippi.
01:04:35
Speaker
That involved a person who had killed his grandfather when he was 15 the early 2000s, and he had been given a mandatory sentence. Because all these rulings are coming into play, Jones ends up getting a rehearing He appeals claiming that the court ah didn't evaluate any aspect of his life when he had been sentenced for that crime at 15.
01:05:00
Speaker
They hold oral arguments and they end up affirming the judgment there. And basically that means pretty much exactly what you had said, that Miller versus Alabama meant some type of rehearing had to take place or the way they kind of treat it now.
01:05:17
Speaker
is sentencing hearings are completely separate for juveniles from guilt hearings. Right. And while an adult would have a mandatory minimum of life in prison, it doesn't mean a juvenile can't have that.
01:05:31
Speaker
Correct. It just means that it has to stand alone and not as a mandatory minimum. Correct. So, yeah. So Miller, interestingly enough, he ends up getting a sentencing hearing 2017. It takes forever to,
01:05:46
Speaker
it takes forever for this to come back around to even the the court that he was like sentenced from. And in April 2021, they him to life without parole.
01:05:58
Speaker
And he is still trying to appeal that today. That's a really long way to get back to where he started. Yeah. um There are other rulings that affect things here.
01:06:13
Speaker
i know that The South Carolina Supreme Court ruled in 2019 on South Carolina versus Slocum. Slocum was a 13-year-old kid in in the early 90s. He had kidnapped and sexually assaulted a woman down in South Carolina.
01:06:31
Speaker
He had shot her in the face in the head and got 30 years for the offense. Now, she lives um while he was an inmate. So I think that's about a year and a half later.
01:06:43
Speaker
He escapes. He um had gone out to a hospital visit. I think it's in Columbia, South Carolina. And he gets away from the person who has him and he ends up committing a burglary.
01:06:58
Speaker
And he gets a life without parole sentence for that burglary. He gets 30 years in prison from that first kidnapping for the sexual assault. He gets 30 years in prison.
01:07:10
Speaker
He gets 15 years for the robbery, and I think he gets five years for escaping. And
01:07:17
Speaker
the some of these holdings end up affecting the way he's sentenced. um He ultimately, like all those things I just read off would have been, I think, 80 years.
01:07:31
Speaker
But the judge had drilled down on it and said that he had to serve each sentence consecutively. They do change his sentence to a 50-year sentence. I don't know that that helps.
01:07:44
Speaker
Miller versus Alabama and I think Jones versus Mississippi will end up affecting juvenile sentencing probably for the rest of our lifetime. I don't think there'll be something that that necessarily changes how homicide...
01:07:58
Speaker
Juveniles convicted of homicide are sentenced.
Freeman Brothers' Resentencing
01:08:01
Speaker
But it comes up today because there was an article in the Lehigh Valley Live where the Freeman brothers come back into the news.
01:08:10
Speaker
Have you ever seen their mugshots? Yeah, I have. They are very interesting looking individuals. I can make like a really um generic characterization from their mugshots.
01:08:23
Speaker
And what that would be is this.
01:08:28
Speaker
I feel like ah someone who was sentenced as a teenager and their mugshot reflects that they have a word tattooed on their forehead yeah should absolutely have their sentencing reconsidered if it were done under the mandatory minimum statutes.
01:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and you can still see their, I noticed that even in their current mug shots, you can still see their tattoos, which... Yeah, they're not going away. um But this this article comes from Kurt Bresswine. He says, a Lehigh County judge on Wednesday handed down new sentences for the Freeman brothers.
01:09:09
Speaker
ah Just pointing out that this place and time, this all takes place, is anniversary twenty ninth anniversary of like the article is is almost the 29th anniversary of this crime.
01:09:23
Speaker
um Judge Douglas Wrightly resentences Brian Robert Freeman, 46, and David Jonathan Freeman, 45, to years to life.
01:09:36
Speaker
Both have served just under three decades and they're in prison for their murder convictions. They would be in their 70s before they're eligible for parole. That's a long time.
01:09:48
Speaker
Well, their crime was heinous. They do report that Brian Freeman wept and expressed remorse. um They said that his religious faith had caused him to believe that he might be able to see his family again and to apologize to them and to beg their forgiveness.
01:10:08
Speaker
David Freeman's attorneys argued that he had been acting under his brother's orders I don't know about, i don't think I believe that to be the case.
01:10:20
Speaker
And well, in that argument, so do you think it's more likely to have a family that has, and now i don't know how the other guy, I know he was their cousin, but let's just talk about the brothers.
01:10:33
Speaker
Do you think it's more likely to have two psychopaths or sociopaths or whatever you want to call them or one and the other one be scared of them? Um,
01:10:47
Speaker
I think you're going to have one and the other is going to be scared of them. More likely. Right. It's, ah it's a little shocking to me. Like, so looking at the pictures of them in 2024, uh, actually pictures from 2023, but they're published in 2024 versus the pictures of them back in, you know, 1995.
01:11:07
Speaker
ninety ninety five um you can kind of differentiate who's who because one of them looks evil and one of them looks scared. Well, and my opinion was there's probably one evil one and the other two were there and very scared.
01:11:28
Speaker
um That's my guess. Yeah. And i would say David is scared. I don't know about Ben, then it's interesting He already had a criminal record at this point. He was 18. He had just turned 18 January, I believe.
01:11:45
Speaker
I may be wrong on that date. Either January or February, he just turned 18. So, weirdly, his sentence will not be affected. It will not. And he went to trial.
01:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, he went to trial on all three murders. And he was found guilty of. I think the father. Yeah. He was found guilty on the father's murder. Um, that was enough for life without parole and his life without parole help.
01:12:11
Speaker
Right. And that's a, it's a really weird situation. i think something that might set this case apart that, uh, I was trying to think like how, if I, if it's really as rare as it seems, but like killing the younger sibling, Right.
01:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's a pretty... that's a pretty it's um it's a It's against human nature, okay, to kill ah younger sibling. Yeah. ah It goes against, like, everything most people just, like, inherently ah have in them because you want to protect your family, your siblings, and then, of course, killing your mother. I mean, we all feel like we could kill our mother at some point, but we um obviously aren't going to do that, right? You get mad and you get over it and you realize, oh, she was right, you know? Yeah. and
01:13:04
Speaker
It's like not being able to control that, um I think, and the size that they were, right? Yeah. Yeah, I you know i wondered, like do crimes like this still happen? So last fall, September of 2024, I was following along with the Amanda Knox case.
01:13:25
Speaker
you know That case has still got some legal rumblings that go on. Yeah, but she's in absentia, right? Yeah. um Yeah, she's never going back to Italy. That's a fantastic use of taxpayer money. Well, I just, her case is is always interesting to me. And, i you know, I don't have opinions. It's not going to turn into a long-dragged-out thing about Amanda Knox.
01:13:47
Speaker
it It was another one of those cases where, for some reason, it captured the public attention and people just would not let it go. ah But while I was following that,
01:13:58
Speaker
There was a ah case of an Italian kid and like their rules are different for how the press treats things. Yeah. But so I was following it like in the international news um and he had confessed to stabbing his younger brother and his parents. Yeah.
01:14:14
Speaker
But, like, I looked for months to try and find the kid's name and to try and figure out, like, if they'd ever sorted out a motive. And there's been some recent stuff in that case, but they never reveal it, like, publicly. You can find it if you dig, um because that's how the Internet is these days.
01:14:32
Speaker
ah But they never reveal publicly, like, the motive in that case. And they never really present a theory. And I was so surprised that in...
01:14:43
Speaker
2024 into 2025, we can have a crime that has some of the hallmarks of the Freeman family killings that we still don't know why it happens.
01:14:57
Speaker
think that the I think that, well, that could be true, but I think motive is obvious. They're just mad. Yeah. And it's really sad, right? Because you end up, it's weird that um whichever one of the brothers was like, I thought I might have a chance to get out with my family. You killed your family, dude.
01:15:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I i don't.
01:15:22
Speaker
There's just so many ways that like these conflicts could be resolved without knives and beatings and all kinds of things. And it's about tolerance and you know kind of not. The 90s were a very different time, though.
01:15:37
Speaker
yeah Yeah, the 80s and the 90s both. And I feel like the religious aspect of it was like weighing really heavy against like anything they wanted to happen in life. And I don't necessarily think that they really were going to be like neo-Nazis or whatever.
01:15:50
Speaker
It was just another structured group that could be like the exact opposite of what their parents wanted. Yeah. Right? So it fulfilled that rebellion. and they will probably more than likely continue to be in jail for the rest of their lives, um which, you know, that's for the system to decide. And it's interesting because it it does make a big difference, right?
01:16:15
Speaker
ah But it's also just sort of common sense that, like, you should evaluate every single juvenile's situation and they shouldn't be subjected to mandatory minimums, that it should actually be a thought process of the judge or jury or whomever is doing the sentencing to determine they deserve life in prison or not.
01:16:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And that it's not really that hard to distinguish those types of things in this case, because there were three, ah boys involved,
01:16:50
Speaker
And because it's not entirely clear who did what, right, I do feel like it would be, it could be relevant possibly that one of them might not deserve it. However, I don't feel like that's been argued really. no And I don't know that the brother, the scared brother's not going to turn on the other one. there's that. Yeah.
01:17:14
Speaker
Unfortunately, when you go to jail when you're 16, 17 years old, you no longer have your parents because you killed them. I feel like there could be a lot of arrested development there, right? Yeah.
01:17:28
Speaker
I just realized something. like The way that I found out about this case originally, I was down a rabbit hole on the Freeman murders, not these Freeman murders. Right.
01:17:41
Speaker
So Ashley Freeman. Yeah. And i don't think so. Like, ah so I always think of those two girls over there, but you know, those parents, Kathy and Danny, their murders are still unsolved.
01:17:59
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. That's interesting. Oh yeah. Because Danny Freeman. Okay. Yeah. I see where you're going. Okay. Yeah, it's that's how i that's how I originally... We were researching something. It's been years.
01:18:12
Speaker
We were researching something else, and I came across this one. And i I think it has several sources. But I remember reading Fred's book, and then I i think I read it thinking it was about the Freeman family, like Ashley, Danny, Kathy...
01:18:36
Speaker
And like when i got it, I was like, oh, oh. Yeah, you know, there was a um ah plea. Somebody took a plea on that case. like And I remember, huh?
01:18:47
Speaker
I remember that happening, yes. Like recently, right? And I remember thinking to myself when it because it was, it wasn't for like the murders or arson even. It was like accessory or something. Yeah. And I remember thinking to myself, that makes no damn sense.
01:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, that would be Ronnie Busick. He pled to, like, something weird. But they named three people. They named Warren Welch, David Pennington, and Ronnie Busick. But Welch and Pennington have since passed away.
01:19:21
Speaker
Well, right. And it it just, I remember thinking to myself, what an injustice it was looking like it was going to be.
01:19:32
Speaker
right And then I, you know, obviously I don't want to torture myself by following it. But to me, what they were saying... which I don't have all the information. I'm not the investigator, but it didn't seem adequate based on like how big of a ah crime it was, how long it had been. and then just to sort of be like, Oh yeah, by the way, we got this one guy who took a plea deal on, you know, accessory after the fact or whatever.
01:20:00
Speaker
yeah And then not with nothing else. Right. Oh, and the other guys died. Oh, well case closed. It was weird. It was just a really weird situation happening. And I, my thought was you've got whoever's, whatever law enforcement agency who has that case, the, you know, a new head person comes in and they're like, close it somehow.
01:20:25
Speaker
Right. That's how I see that happening. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just hollow, right? Because, I mean, these were this was her the parents and then the two young girls, right? Yeah. How much misery can we cram into one single episode? i think that was a lot.
01:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, it was. as Well, but you're the one who jumped on the Freeman murder at the end there. Yeah, no, it was, that is a lot, but that is probably how you got there. And um i don't expect we're going to be hearing about the Freeman brothers getting out, but I mean, that'll be in 30 years.
01:21:07
Speaker
2055. How weird. 30 years. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. so were they, was he weeping because he was disappointed or because he was happy? Oh, he is, you found God. I'm sure he's a Jehovah's Witness. Because to me is there really a whole lot of difference between like 60 years to life and then life? I mean, I guess there is really, but like, don't you just give up?
01:21:31
Speaker
I mean, you've been in there since you're 16 years old. You've been in there for 30 years. i don't think and another 30 years is going change anything. Yeah, I don't know. i just i do realize I do feel like the decision was the right one. It should have been what was happening all along. You always have to take ah special consideration with children. i'm It's not going to change the outcome all that much, right? No, not all.
01:21:57
Speaker
But it still should be a thing where you're not just slapping you know mandatory minimums. And I feel like... Mandatory minimums, I mean, I get why they happened, and in some ways I can see good effects from there, but it also makes it seem like human beings in the United States criminal justice system became like cattle that were being branded, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.
01:22:22
Speaker
And i think that there's a lot to be said for why it could be bad, because when you're looking at a mandatory minimum, that means no matter what happens, you have been found guilty of this crime and you are going to serve this mandatory minimum sentence.
01:22:37
Speaker
And usually it's a lot. Yeah. And you're stuck, right? and so I can see where um it shouldn't apply to minors. I'm not even sure.
01:22:50
Speaker
i feel like other reform needs to happen before like judges are so busy that they have to impose this mandatory minimum on everybody because they can't take the time to look at the case. i mean, come on.
01:23:03
Speaker
i would agree with that. And I will say that like, I do work on juvenile felony cases and
01:23:14
Speaker
I have never been so starkly reminded as the last six months of my life how truly dumb 15, 16, and 17-year-olds can be. Yeah, they are. um and that's why it's important if you have a child that you're teaching them to make good decisions for themselves, right?
01:23:35
Speaker
Yep. Because they will be held. I mean, at that age, more than likely, they're going to be held accountable. Right.
01:23:45
Speaker
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01:25:09
Speaker
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