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Episode 150: Ian Frisch—Good Ideas Know No Age
139 Plays6 years ago
"A good idea knows no experience level or age," says Ian Frisch, @IanFrisch on Twitter.
Ian Frisch, author of Magic is Dead: My Journey into the World's Most Secretive Society of Magicians.
We dig deep into the book, as well his approach to freelancing.
Thanks to our show's patrons in Goucher College's MFA in Nonfiction and Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Nonfiction.
Recommended
Transcript
The Art of Storytelling
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And that's what makes great story is having character and setting and narrative movement and, you know, dynamic change and all of these things.
Introducing Ian Frisch
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That's Ian Frisch, my guest today and author of Magic is Dead. My journey into the world's most secretive society of magicians, published by Day Street. This is CNF, the creative non-fiction podcast where I talk to badass writers, filmmakers, radio producers, and podcasters about the art and craft of telling true stories. But first, a word from our
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is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts in Nonfiction. The Goucher MFA is a two year low residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere while on campus residencies allow you to hone your craft.
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Speaker
with accomplished mentors who have pulled surprises in best-selling books to their names. The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni, which has published 140 books and counting. You'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey. Visit Goucher.edu slash non-fiction to start your journey now. Now!
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Take your writing to the next level and go from hopeful to published in Goucher's MFA program for non-fiction.
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Speaker
That's right. How's it going, CNF
Podcast Essentials
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Speaker
-ers? You feeling good? It's May. It is the month of May. We are in it. We are almost halfway through 2019. It's a crazy time to be alive, man. You know, you can subscribe to this show on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify. Show notes are always at BrendanOmero.com. Hey, hey.
00:02:06
Speaker
And you can sign up for my monthly newsletter there. Book recommendations, articles, and what you might have missed from the world of this CNF and podcast. I've also got this other little podcast thing going called Casualty of Words. It's a micro podcast about three minutes long. Every day is part of the 100 day project. It's pretty fun. Check it out. Subscribe. Do your thing.
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Speaker
As for the newsletter, you just missed May's, but if you sign up, you'll get the next one. Once a month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. So I'm trying to write an essay in the form of a screenplay as a way to quote, unquote, push the boundaries for a contest of sorts. I'm dragging my feet on it, even though the deadline is next week. So I'm kind of getting to that, you know, you're hosed territory.
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It's like, okay, this is what it's like. So I do this show and I read one to two books a week and do lots of research and I read all these books or articles and I'm like, the world doesn't need my work in it. It doesn't need my shit. There's quite enough as is.
Navigating Self-Doubt and Writing
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I'm reading lots of Chuck Closterman and his essays, but also his new book of short stories. And I'm like, well, no sense of playing this game anymore.
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It's not writer's block because I don't believe in that shit. It's more like I can't do anything that measures up to these people. I read for the show, you know, and people's attention is already so fractured. So I had more noise. Yeah, no, it's a it's a silly, stupid sentiment. I know that at the core, but I don't know.
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We make stuff because we need to make stuff, right? Hey, the Creative Nonfiction Podcast is also sponsored by Bay Path University's MFA in Nonfiction. Discover your story, Bay Path University.
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is the first and only university offering no residency, fully accredited MFA focusing exclusively on creative non-fiction. Attend full or part-time from anywhere in the world. In the Bay Path MFA you'll find small online classes and a dynamic and supportive community. You'll master the techniques of good writing from acclaimed authors and editors, learn about publishing and teaching through professional internships,
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and complete a master's thesis that will form the foundation for your memoir or collection of personal essays. Special elective courses include contemporary women's stories, travel and food writing, family histories, spiritual writing, and an optional week-long summer residency in Ireland, with guest writers including André De Butse III, Ann Hood, and Mia Gallagher, among others.
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Start dates in late August, January, and May. Find out more at baypath.edu slash MFA.
Ian Frisch's Career Insights
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So, Ian Frisch is here. He is a master freelance features writer whose work has appeared in, wait for it, The New Yorker, The New York Times, Washington Post Magazine, Playboy, Wired, Vice Sports, Rolling Stone. So yeah, my man can ball. Magic is Dead is his first book and it's great. I loved it. Loved it.
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This episode is a freelancer's dream. We take a deep dive into how he forms his queries, how he deconstructs what magazines want, so he can formulate better pitches, how he reports, how he works, lots of great stuff. He's Ian Frisch, I-A-N-F-R-I-S-C-H on Twitter, and at Ian underscore Frisch on Instagram. There's probably some magic tricks going on there.
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And visit his website ianfresh.com to get more familiar with his work. I think that's it. This is me and Ian. Let's do it.
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You often meet such a massive new sister who's kind of close to where I went from college at UMass Amherst. So what was your upbringing like with your father who came from Ohio, super working class, super hard worker, and your mom who helped pretty much raise you and your sister? So what was that like growing up? We weren't cosmopolitan people.
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You know, we, we very much were this kind of down home blue color family. And growing up, it was kind of, it was kind of set out that you were going to have that same life. You know what I'm saying? And it was, it didn't really feel like there were options outside of that.
00:07:22
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And it wasn't like I knew there were options outside of that and I wanted to achieve them, but I couldn't. It just was the nature of the upbringing, you know, living in a New England town and having parents who set forth and idolized entrepreneurship and, you know, blue collar professions and, you know, kind of making your own way. Those types of
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ideals were set in me from a very young age. And it was always kind of promoted that, you know, hard work, looking out for those you love, staying close with your family. Those are the things that are going to promote success later in life. And as I got older, you know, in my early teen years and pre-teen years, you know, it started becoming more apparent that, hey, you know, this could be something that
00:08:19
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I really would enjoy doing. You know, I was always a pretty precocious student across the board, but I, you know, I, I loved English, but I also loved math and I really enjoyed the concept of building things or figuring out how things worked, taking things apart. And, you know, when I was that age, I was kind of like, you know, maybe I could be an engineer or I could be an architect or
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something like that because my father was a tile man. He owned his own tile company. And his whole thing was, you know, I've gotten this far, but I really want you to kind of go above and beyond this. Like if I can get this far coming from, you know, basically poverty in Ohio, you know, if I can leave that and make it to here, living in a stable middle class town and, you know, have a nice house and have a wife and two kids.
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You know, you can even go further than that. And that was kind of the path that was kind of set out for me. You know, so it's interesting to think back on that and see how much has changed over the past 15 years. Yeah. And you were also a, you know, I gleaned this from the book. You were also a pretty good athlete too, right? Yeah. I mean, I was a quarterback for my youth football team and, uh, you know, that was a huge thing too was, you know, sports was a huge part of my life.
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the concepts of teamwork and leadership. And those go hand in hand with being a good entrepreneur or businessman or businesswoman, because you have to be a leader to those work under you, but you have to work as a team in order to accomplish the larger goal.
Family Influence on Career Path
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So all of these sorts of activities that related to a pretty typical middle-class upbringing all fed into what it meant to try to become
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an adult, you know, these values are instilled in you and you're supposed to carry them into your teenage years, your college years and your adult life. So that was all kind of part of it. But, you know, it's, it's such a departure from, from where I am now on the surface level. But I think all of those, I think all of those ideals are still with me. They're just applied in different ways.
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Oh yeah, the fact that you learned a lot of entrepreneurship from your father and you had a knack for deconstructing things and taking things apart, I mean that is the very nature of being a writer too and a freelance writer. Like Susan Orlean says, if you're going to be a freelance writer, you are running a small business.
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And if you have, if there are pieces you want to write out there, and you want to write in a certain style, then it helps to work backwards and break up the structure and see like, how did John Jeremiah Sullivan or Tom Geno or Susan Arlene, how do they write these things? And then you realize once you break it down into those fundamental parts, it's like, oh, this is manageable. I just have to do the work and work through the steps.
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I talk to a lot of other writers about what it means to understand a story. And I, and I always relate it back to an engineering problem. If you're going to build a building or design a contraption or anything, you have to have all of the correct parts for it to work. And that's what makes great story is having character and setting and narrative movement and, you know, dynamic change and all of these things. And it's really interesting because.
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the ability to understand that on a craft level combined with this inherent sense of unburdened curiosity, which I've always been enamored with. I've always been very curious about certain things. They go hand in hand, but it obviously goes without saying that if my father hadn't died when I was 13, I would not be a writer today because
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The transition into applying these values into something that allowed me to kind of make sense of the world or to explore it in, in a more profound way, wouldn't have been necessary. I could have gone along this path that was basically spelled out for me and that I was willing to accept and that I probably would have found to be fulfilling in some way.
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that requirement was no longer necessary because I wasn't doing it for anyone. Reflecting on this now, and I talk a lot about this in the book, as the underlying emotional theme is trying to find the truest version of yourself. And I think when you go back to understanding how you were raised and the value systems that were implanted in you, a lot of value systems for people growing up are structured in a way that
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lends them opportunity in terms of career or social mobility, things like that. I mean, a parent wants the best for their child, but these values have to be applied in some way. And without the guiding force of my father after he passed away, I still held onto these values, but it was kind of up to me to find a way to apply them. And as I became older in my teenage years, a few years after he passed away, I took a career writing class in high school.
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Something that I want to say was maybe a requirement, but that was kind of intrigued by it. I'd begun to read more around this time. Cause again, you know, we weren't a family with like the New York times laying around or the New Yorker. I don't think I read my first New Yorker article till I was in college. So it was this kind of strange sort of progression I was going through personally on that level. And when I took this class, I was really enthralled by it because of the inherent freedom with the written word.
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So I was like, man, this could be something that that's really fun because it made me feel good. And my mother was obviously very supportive of this because she understood that, you know, with my father not being around. That it was going to be much more up to me to be able to say, okay, the world is right here for you. How do you want to take it? How do you want to hold on to it? What do you want to do with it? So that was kind of the transition into how I decided to become a writer.
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And it's all really infused with this whole sort of life changing event from losing a parent. And as time goes on, I became more dedicated to the craft and trying to figure out how I can make it work in a practical way while still staying close to the parts of it that I love the most and the type of running that I really wanted to do as I became
00:15:18
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I guess a working professional, if you want to call it that. Yeah. The passing of your father from a devastating stroke when you were, like you said, when you were 13, it seemed to do something special to the relationship you have with your mom, too. And that comes through in the book a lot. It allowed her to
00:15:46
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spread her wings in a way that she wasn't before, even though through immense grief, but it'll let her kind of chart her own course. And I want to say, do you think her being free in that way was also part of the reason why she could turn to you and say, like, Ian, you need to go find find your way now, too? Yeah, I think my mother knows more knows better than anyone that that that life is a series of sacrifices, and especially being a woman
00:16:14
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She had to sacrifice a lot of herself for the betterment of the family unit. When she was younger in her late teens and early twenties, she was kind of a wild card. She did road trips across the country. She loved to play poker. She loved to play pool. She was like a bar rat. And when she met my father, when they were in their twenties,
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and they started kind of a serious relationship and they wanted to start a family. She understood that she had to put that piece of herself aside for the betterment of this future plan. And this plan was kind of everything because it was the only way out. It was the only way for them to elevate in terms of quality of life and to have a real family and to provide
00:17:12
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Fulfillingly for the kids and that plan worked out really well. Obviously until it didn't you know, my mom and dad built their dream house They finished it like Less than a year before my dad died. So they had gotten this far and then the whole thing is thrown to disarray So what do you do at that point, you know? For me, it was kind of like alright
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this path that was kind of set for me in the early stages of my life is kind of dissipating. And now I have freedom to make my own choices. But my mother understood that she had obligations to be a mother and she continued to be a really great mother, but she also had to find a way to kind of find herself again. So she began playing poker again. That was one of her main coping mechanisms. And I didn't really understand it was a coping mechanism until much later when I started writing this book because of the connection between
Coping with Loss Through Writing
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deception at the card table and deception and magic. But that was kind of her thing was, I can go sit down at the poker table and I don't have to be a mom tonight. I don't have to be Pam tonight. I can be this whole other person. I can exude skills that I don't need to use in my everyday life. And that was a way I think for her to kind of
00:18:30
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try to move on or find purpose, you know, was to dedicate herself to this game. And, you know, her and I played poker and we still do quite frequently. You know, she played almost full time when I was in high school and during my college years. So that was really a way for her to kind of come to terms with this. And that's definitely part of the story as well, because I feel like a tragedy like losing a husband or losing a parent isn't something that just kind of happens. And then your life just continues. It's something that becomes part of you.
00:19:00
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And that's kind of what the book is about too. And it's about how you deal with that and about how you come to terms with that. And I think that, you know, a lot of people talk about this book and they're like, oh, it's, you're hanging out with magicians and you become a magician and et cetera. But the real story is like, it's like a coming of age drama where, you know, this, this guy, me is at a point in his life where he's kind of looking for this epiphany or this situation to kind of
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prove to himself that it's okay, that the man he's become is satisfactory. And at the same time for my mother, it's something that she can look at at a time and she can say, where my children are and where I am, we got through this. And I think that that's really what the book is about, aside from the whole kind of top level fun, adventurous stuff.
00:19:57
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with these young magicians. But when you get to understand the characters that I kind of involve myself with, we're all kind of on the same journey. And I think that that's what makes this book really special is that it has that emotional layer, you know, which is something that I've always tried to find in things that I write is that there has to be something at stake here for the main character. Aside from just the action itself, there has to be something at stake emotionally. And I think that all of this really folds into
00:20:27
Speaker
what this book is really about. Yeah, when I was reading it, early on, and this is just, of course, a reader's subjectivity about what the book really felt like it was about and that animating force to me really felt like, all right, here was this family that got disrupted by this tragedy.
00:20:50
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All these magicians that you engender yourself with, they all come from fairly like kind of broken backgrounds too. So this book really felt to me about family and finding your family. Does that kind of resonate with you or at least make sense on some level? Yeah. I mean, every person has their own story and it's really about finding the underlying theme of their journey and why they do what they do.
00:21:20
Speaker
And it was fairly late in the process of reporting and then writing the book that I realized that everyone was kind of on the same journey, you know, to find the truest version of themselves and to be okay with that. And to say, you know, despite every, everything I've come from and everything I've inherited as an adult, I've, I've done the best to be who I am. And I'm proud of that. And it is about,
00:21:49
Speaker
finding comfort in the present, not only with who you are, but what you do. And to some extent too, like finding a family of people who have gone through similar things. And I think magic in general and magicians in general gravitate towards this craft because of that. You know, it kind of attracts loners or introverts because they see an inherent power in the ability to harness deception.
00:22:20
Speaker
And I mean, when I say that, I mean, I think of my mother in the same way. So it's kind of interesting the parallels and between the two and the tools people seek out to use in their lives to try to understand themselves more or potentially better themselves. And that was something that I saw with basically everyone that became a main character in this book.
00:22:48
Speaker
And so when you took that creative writing class in high school and things started to change for you in terms of how you approach reading and writing, of course, who were you reading at that time that was starting to unlock that part of you and made you want to pursue that? Well, my mother is a huge Stephen King fan. So basically the only books in our house growing up were Stephen King books.
00:23:18
Speaker
Um, so I remember reading a couple Stephen King books when I was in high school, just because they were available to me at that time. And I just, I thought it was interesting. I wasn't really enamored by the stories themselves, but that I could picture a person sitting down and writing them.
00:23:41
Speaker
was the thing I was like wow like someone can just think this stuff up and write it and it's an you know and it's an entertaining or enthralling read that was kind of kind of sparked it for me was that wow someone has the power to create this experience for someone else which is you know a very similar thing to performing magic tricks if you if you think about it but I didn't really understand high level craft of writing I think until
00:24:10
Speaker
I was in college because like I said, again, I lived in a very small town in Massachusetts and there really wasn't a lot of culture in terms of keeping up with the arts. At that time in high school, I didn't know what the Pulitzer Prizes were. I didn't know what any of this stuff was. It just wasn't available to me. Understanding the systems of arts and culture in that way were, well, what was good literature and what wasn't?
00:24:40
Speaker
I mean, these sorts of things didn't really exist for me. So over time, I kind of stumbled upon them naturally. But I remember, you know, in college, like I said, like reading The New Yorker for the first time and seeing what really talented nonfiction writers can do, you know, and then I remember reading In Cold Blood for the first time in college, and I was just like blown away by the execution of that.
00:25:09
Speaker
And that was when I was falling in love with journalism because I was like, you know, journalists go out in the world and they meet people and then they translate their experiences to an audience. And it's a life of adventure because you're experiencing new things all the time. You're constantly learning. And, you know, as I started to understand what journalism really was on the craft level, you know, news journalism versus feature writing versus books versus this versus that, I kind of understood that that's where
00:25:40
Speaker
that's where the craft can be pushed to the highest level. And I think that that's where the most excitement sort of laid. So that was, you know, that was kind of the early stages of really understanding that side of it all. And I think once I got to that point, especially in college, I started reading a lot more, a lot more literature and nonfiction. And, you know, that's where I kind of became
00:26:09
Speaker
more in tuned with how to achieve this kind of level of execution as to what makes good writing versus bad writing and how I could adjust my application to the craft to kind of get those results that I wanted from my own work.
00:26:29
Speaker
I know when I was studying journalism, I quickly gravitated more towards feature writing and narrative nonfiction versus like hard news and breaking news. It just appealed to my taste more. Yeah, same. Yeah. Likewise, when you were studying, what was it about one versus the other that really gravitated or really pulled you in? I mean, to me, it's like,
00:26:57
Speaker
I want to be taken on a journey a bit if I'm going to dedicate my time to a piece of writing. I'm not really just there for the information. I want to be able to understand a character and their motivations and their experiences on a deeper level. And when your goal is to do that, the amount of freedom you have with the words increases, which allows for
Passion for Journalism
00:27:27
Speaker
a more pleasant experience, you know, the way people structure their sentences or how they tell a story, the details they choose to use, the word, the words that they use to kind of get these points across or to generate these feelings. And that always appealed to me much more. I want to say I read, I want to say it was a Bill Buford piece. I'm going to look it up actually right now. It's about chocolate.
00:27:57
Speaker
It was in the New Yorker. I love those kind of features that, on the surface, they seem so simple, but then these writers, they just, through reporting and rigor and research, they just go down the rabbit hole and you're like, whoa, that's what this is exposed? So it's called Extreme Chocolate, The Quest for the Perfect Bean by Bill Buford, October 22nd, 2007. I remember reading that when it first came out, and I was like,
00:28:27
Speaker
This is wild. Like, you know, this type of writing can be published and can be seen as something worthwhile. And then, you know, once you kind of get a taste of that stuff, that's all you're really looking for. And then you kind of dig deeper and you're finding writing that is similar in its, you know, in its presentation and in its tone and in its kind of pacing, you know, and
00:28:56
Speaker
that was kind of where it started for me, I guess. I remember that piece quite vividly. And again, like reading In Cold Blood and things like that, I was just like, man, like, I want to write stuff like this. Like, that's what I want to do. And I want to find a way to practice it so I can get better at it. But I also want to be able to understand why these stories or these ideas
00:29:26
Speaker
turn out well in the end. I mean, I've definitely had my slip ups when it comes to thinking a story is really great. Once you get into the material, you realize you're missing a large piece of it or this or that, or it's just not going to work for the format in which you're kind of commissioned to do it. But I, you know, I really knew that this level of writing required a lot of time and patience, but that's really what I wanted to do from the onset.
00:29:56
Speaker
And I've done, you know, news reporting here and there, but I really try to dedicate myself to more substantial features, even in the early parts of my career, because I knew that those were the types of articles that would potentially lead to greater opportunities. You know, like if you practice that type of writing in a newspaper or magazine format,
00:30:24
Speaker
you're probably going to be better suited to tackle a book project down the line because you understand the type of narrative beats you have to hit. You understand how characters have to be flushed out over a period of time. So a lot of that was just culminating into, I guess, how I was able to execute this book.
00:30:46
Speaker
So that was the type of writing you identified early that you wanted to do. So what were the next logical steps for you to start manifesting the kind of writing you wanted to do and landing these pieces in places that will pay you fairly for the time that it takes to make this kind of work? Well, it was a difficult road, to be honest, because the whole catch-22 about this is that you need experience to do this type of writing.
00:31:16
Speaker
but no one wants to give someone the opportunity to do this type of writing without experience. So I was kind of like, all right, I'm going to have to do a lot of this potentially on my own. If this is the type of writing I really want to dedicate myself to. So that's where I'm, I was kind of at. I graduated from Champlain College in Burlington, Vermont, this small liberal arts college, and I had a degree in writing and I was allowed to do a lot of, a lot of this more ambitious stuff there.
00:31:46
Speaker
Because I think I was one of the only people who really wanted to try to do it. I got an internship at Rolling Stone. I worked there probably for five or six months, around five months, I think, in the latter half of 2009, right after I graduated. But obviously 2009 was like the worst year to graduate college since the Great Recession and media was tanking because they hadn't yet figured out how to make money on the internet and print ad revenues have been going down. So I get to Rolling Stone.
00:32:17
Speaker
And, you know, they were, I think there was only like three or four people working for the website at the time. And, you know, print was really tight and I just kind of saw firsthand the overall situation that magazines were in and it kind of didn't look good. You know, this is before BuzzFeed and Vox and all these companies now that you can work for. So I was kind of like, man, you know, and there were no jobs and
00:32:46
Speaker
after my internship, I couldn't get a job. I was just like, all right, well, I don't want to leave New York. I don't want to abandon this sort of dream that I have. So maybe I can make something work. So I got a job at a hotel. I was waiting tables, working evening shift from four to midnight. And then I started a magazine with a bunch of friends where a lot of my friends were photographers or illustrators and
00:33:16
Speaker
You know, I was just kind of bringing everyone together so we could do this publication that I was kind of spearheading. And I would use some money from my night job to help fund it. And it was not profitable at all. I definitely lost money on it, like over the years, a lot of money. But because it was my magazine, I could do whatever I want. So I had a lot of freedom to write pieces in a way that I want. And I really saw it as an exercise of practice.
00:33:43
Speaker
So that's really what I used it for. And I ran that publication for about three years, I think, a little over three years. And towards the end of that, I knew I wanted to be done with it because I wanted to kind of take these skills and kind of enter the freelance market because I saw that magazines in general were becoming more stable over that time. This was in 2014, going into 2015. And during 2014, I had done a personal project about
00:34:12
Speaker
these triplet brothers that live on this small fishing island off the northern coast of Iceland. And I wrote this, you know, I did it for myself and it ended up getting subsequently published on Laterly, which is I believe a now defunct kind of international publication. But there was this 10,000 word article and it was about these triplets, the only triplets to ever be born on this island. And one of the triplets died when they were children. And now the brothers are adults and it was kind of about
00:34:42
Speaker
you know, the brother dying and recreating that day. And it was kind of this exercise and this sort of high level, like David grand style, like recreating events in vivid detail. And I was really proud of that piece. And I was like, man, like I really think that, you know, I'm at a point where my skills can be translated into like real assignments for real publications. So in 2015, like that's what I decided to do. And I knew I had like,
00:35:10
Speaker
a lot of really great practice in doing this type of work. And I really wanted to kind of jump into it. And one of the first bigger pieces was actually one of my first pieces as a freelancer. I had pitched Vice Sports this story about how women, female bodybuilders were being pressured
00:35:38
Speaker
through the sport into getting breast implants because the sponsors for the competitions could sell more stuff. And the magazines that own the competitions put the winners on the cover. And if the winners are more feminine, then they can sell more ads for the magazines. It was just like whole sort of racket thing. So I did that investigation and that was quite long too. It was about 7,000 words, but it had a lot of depth to it and a lot of nuance.
00:36:04
Speaker
That's what kind of started it. And I really stuck, tried to stick to that brand every time I pitched a story where I thought, you know, there was at least some element of character or narrative or, you know, a sense of public service with an investigative element. And I really tried to keep those things going as I gained more steam in the freelance space. And also too, that obviously carried over into how this book came about. But that was, you know, kind of what I stuck to. I was like, okay, I don't want to get into this trap.
00:36:35
Speaker
where I'm writing basically blog posts for websites for $300 a pop. You know, I want to tell real stories, you know, with real significance and characters with something at stake and a bigger picture takeaway and an emotional layer and, you know, all of these things. So I really tried as best I could to kind of stick to those things throughout all of the pieces that I started writing over the subsequent years.
00:37:02
Speaker
Would you say that bodybuilding piece, was that kind of the first one that started the snowball for you to be able to start landing similar pieces in different markets that were prominent and visible and paid decently? Yeah, I think so. Because I think it showed a level of reporting skill. And when you look at that story, you're like, wow.
00:37:32
Speaker
Okay, I definitely know what I'm doing to a certain extent. Was it as graceful or nuanced as some of the stuff that you see in the bigger magazines? No. But the bare bones are there in terms of being able to do a quality job reporting and to write something that has substance. But that was kind of the starting point. But again, you know, I always come back to the fact that
00:37:58
Speaker
A good idea knows no experience level or age. So I tell kids that. I'm like, it doesn't matter how old you are. It doesn't matter how many years you have under your belt. A really great idea can carry you quite far. And I always kind of knew that as a freelancer, especially one where I didn't have many pre-existing relationships with editors or any relationships at all. It was my idea that that was going to carry me
00:38:28
Speaker
and that the writing was going to come second, where if I have a really great idea and I can pitch it well, the editor has a sense that I can probably write it and execute it as well. So that was really my thing, is I really wanted to try to work in that sort of way until I got to the point like where I am now, where I can be a little bit more choosy and I can, you know,
00:38:55
Speaker
take longer on pieces and, you know, dig deeper for different ideas here, like here and there. But, you know, where I was back then, I was like, I just need really compelling ideas because if I get a compelling idea, I can put that in front of an editor and they're going to be able to run with it with me. But over time, you know, these sorts of things kind of started compounding upon each other. You know, I started doing more stories for Vice Sports, you know, that kind of culminated into this really long profile of Shaquille O
The Craft of Pitching Stories
00:39:25
Speaker
'Neal.
00:39:25
Speaker
that I did, um, in late 2015 as well. And, you know, securing access for that, you know, and having vice behind me saying, if you can get access to him, then, you know, we'll definitely send you. And then being able to put out like that kind of narrative a lot, like a lot of visual detail about being there with him and watching him and his interactions with his family. And, you know, this really great access that allowed that piece to shine.
00:39:55
Speaker
I think that was a turning point for me too, where I saw that, okay, I can really do this. And that was a really great opportunity for me too. And then all that stuff just started snowballing into bigger publications, better pay, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:14
Speaker
And that point of access is important, too. And it looked like with the Vice Sports piece, you had a relationship there. So they were like, that sounds like a great idea. Go get access and we'll greenlight it. But oftentimes, if you don't have that relationship, you have to sometimes secure access without knowing that you can land the piece.
00:40:37
Speaker
So probably early on, you probably had a lot of those experiences. So how did you go about lobbying for the access you needed and pre-report enough that you could draw up a good enough query that got the attention of editors to then turn you loose?
00:40:54
Speaker
for the Shaq story or let's see well we can do the Shaq story but I'm thinking too because that one you kind of got it sounds like it was like oh we'll run with this piece if you can get the access but other times sometimes you need to go find access before you can even successfully lobby for a piece
00:41:13
Speaker
So in the days before you had that kind of relationship with an editor advice, how were you going about getting access, not necessarily knowing if you could land the story you were hoping to pitch? A lot of the time, and I still have to do this, if I can isolate an idea that I think holds promise, and I know that there's a main character at the center of it,
00:41:39
Speaker
I normally just reach out to them and I say, Hey, I'm a freelance journalist. You know, I've written for these magazines. You know, I think you have an interesting story. I'd like to just chat with you a little bit on background, just to get a little bit more information and to ask some questions. And I can kind of talk to some editors to see maybe if someone's interested. I think it could work for, you know, XYZ or, you know, ABC magazine or, you know, whoever, you know, I'd usually give a list like it could work for these people.
00:42:08
Speaker
And I usually get on a call and I kind of flesh it out and I kind of try to get to, okay, you know, what's the news item? Um, you know, what's at stake for you personally? What's the, what's the bigger picture here? You know, how is, you know, um, is there a beginning, a middle and an end to this? And, you know, once I can kind of understand that by having just a kind of informal chat with the, with the subject, I'm able to write that pitch.
00:42:36
Speaker
You know, and obviously ask them like, Hey, would you, would you go on record or, you know, Hey, you have this thing coming up, you know, that is integral to the story that I love to be there for. Like the news item is happening. Like, can I be there with you? And, you know, could I hang out with, you know, members of your family or other people who are integral to the story and you kind of get all that. And then when you pitch the story, you're able to do that. I mean, that's how I go about it. And that's how I still go about it. I mean, I just did that like two days ago for a new idea. So, I mean, but sometimes it takes a lot longer.
00:43:04
Speaker
Sometimes it takes a lot longer to kind of gain that access. I mean, I'm working on a story right now. I'm just about to put it to bed. That's coming out this spring. And, you know, it's kind of a involves like a crime plot. And I had to wait, I don't know, five months to secure access for the main character. And, you know, some of that for bigger stories is just part of the game.
00:43:31
Speaker
But, you know, to be able to identify those hurdles and to prioritize based upon them makes being a freelancer a little bit easier. But I always try to secure access before I pitch. I always try to talk to my at least main character in the story before I go to an editor, because those are the main questions they're going to have for you when you pitch like, okay, great, great story, but do we have access to this person? Or, you know, I see your vision of the piece, but you know,
00:43:58
Speaker
are you going to be able to report it out? Because the last thing you want is to get to the end of an assignment and you're missing crucial parts of the story. So yeah, that's usually the process I go through. It just makes the whole situation easier about getting an assignment. And obviously, the better access you have, the more promising the story becomes, and then the more support you're going to get from the publication. Maybe they'll shoot you some
00:44:26
Speaker
travel budget or this or that and that's you know that's part of the whole thing too is the more support you get from the publication obviously the better the story is going to be. If writing the story is the art then often the pitch is there's more or less a science to the pitch like you got to hit these kind of these beats and so you can say the tell the editor like this is why it's good for you this is why I'm great to write it.
00:44:54
Speaker
So – or qualified to write it. So what is – how did you over time hone your querying process to get to the point where you were – you had a pretty good batting average? And once you had that good batting average, like what did – what did the process – or how frequently were you pitching too? Yeah, I mean if you want to go back to the engineering metaphor, that's how I kind of went about it. I mean I used to go to like –
00:45:19
Speaker
I would go to Barnes and Noble a lot and I would sit down and I would read magazines that I really loved. Bloomberg Businessweek, Wired, New York Times Magazine, et cetera, et cetera. I'd read all these magazines. I wasn't really reading them for the content per se. I was reading them in terms of what the content said about what the editors want and need. And what I mean by that is that if you look at GQ, Esquire, Wired, et cetera,
00:45:47
Speaker
their front of books and their feature wells are basically the same thing every single issue with just new content plugged in. But each piece and each section serves a greater purpose for the magazine as a whole, because magazines and magazine editors want the entire book to be an experience for you, where you can go through and you can get some service journalism, you can get some short features, you can get some investigative stuff, you can get this or that. And I was kind of reading these pieces with the understanding that
00:46:17
Speaker
Each one serves a purpose for the larger whole. And what do they really try to do for the magazine as a product? So that's where I really started to get my footing a little bit better was when I started kind of looking at it from that perspective. And I would say, you know, and then when I would find an idea, I would think, okay, what magazine would this work for and where exactly could it fit?
00:46:44
Speaker
because sometimes you give an idea to a publication and they're like, yeah, but it's hard for us to put it in there or et cetera, et cetera. I mean, for Wired, just as an example, I started realizing that almost all of their front of book stuff was super visual and a lot of the writing was a lot smaller. So I started to think, well, maybe they think about it in terms of if it's going to look good on the page,
00:47:12
Speaker
And there's enough writing behind it. That's, that's the sweet spot. And I remember one of my first stories for them, I had pitched a story about this highway interchange in Dubai. That was like this unique design that hadn't been used before. And it was just like an interesting sort of, you know, problem solver. Cause why are told thing is how is technology solve the problem? And it should be act one.
00:47:40
Speaker
problem presents itself. Act two, technology comes to the rescue and solves a problem, and act three is how the world is better because of that. That is every single story, right? And I had seen this amazing photograph of this thing, and I researched it a little bit, and that's exactly what happened is that it was super dangerous in this area of Dubai, and they used this really interesting, complex highway interchange to fix it, and now it's less dangerous and less congested.
00:48:10
Speaker
And I pitched them, I sent the image. I was like, look at how cool this thing looks. And I was like, here's the backstory. And they were like, perfect. And they ran the image that I sent them. They licensed it from the photographer and ran it. So that was just me looking through this magazine and being like, why do they do what they do? And a lot of times it's difficult to get that information from an editor because they don't necessarily have the time to explain all of this to you. So that was one thing. And another thing was, I go back to this story I did for Bloomberg Businessweek about
00:48:40
Speaker
this, the first US business that was allowed to set up manufacturing operations in Cuba. And it was surprisingly enough, these two old guys from Alabama who made tractors. And I saw that story on the AP when it first came out, and it was like a super small news item. And I was just like, that's a perfect Bloomberg Businessweek story, because they see this larger news item, this kind of vague thing where it's like, the embargo's lifted, and everyone's talking about that.
00:49:09
Speaker
but they want like the character driven, you know, side door into this larger issue. And that was like the perfect story for them. So that was like my first feature for them. And, you know, they sent me to Alabama, they let me write, I think it was almost 2,500 words. You know, I got to go on Bloomberg TV and talk about that story. And that was only because I had been reading their stories and understanding that like, okay, everything here is just the side door. And like the interesting kind of narrative that people aren't really
00:49:37
Speaker
kind of seeing underneath a larger kind of topical conversation. So those are the kind of things that I was finding were successful. Same thing goes for the New Yorker. When I was writing for them, I was reading, obviously, the New Yorker in print, but also online. And I realized that they had a sports section, but they only were writing about tennis and boxing, because two of their staff writers liked those sports, basically. And I was like, there are so many more interesting off-the-wall sports stories that are really great that
00:50:07
Speaker
no one is seeing on this website. So that, so that's how I got like this kind of string of kind of cool sports stories for them was because they had a void in their coverage. So it's just like, you know, those types of approaches will, is what really worked for me because it allowed my ideas to stand out because there was a need for them in that way.
00:50:32
Speaker
I like the way of framing is like if the story itself is to serve your ego, then the query is an active empathy to understand the editor and their needs. And then there's that overlapping circle of the empathic query and then the egotistical story you want to write. And that overlap is where the sweet spot is. That's a career. Yeah. I mean, I think pitching is really all about
00:51:02
Speaker
understanding the editor's perspective because they're the firewall between publication and rejection. And it's like, you know, what do they want? What do they need? You know, because all editors need great ideas. I mean, it's their job to curate the best ideas. I mean, that's what they are. They're curators of ideas. So it's like getting into the mind of an editor and pressing for that sweet spot is
00:51:32
Speaker
what has proven to me to be the most successful. And obviously too, as you gain your reputation and your stories get better, people are going to give you a little bit more leeway in terms of risk. They may allow you to write longer or they may give you more resources or they may let you kind of go off and do your own thing for a story. And, you know, once that leash gets to stand a little bit, you can use that to kind of ramp up your voice or to
00:52:01
Speaker
try something new or to really push the boundaries in terms of telling larger stories or more complex stories. And that's a byproduct of hard work over time. And also building this reputation and proving yourself to be trustworthy and reliable in terms of your side of the bargain and coming back after reporting with a good story. And that's all part of the equation too.
00:52:30
Speaker
For me, it's like sticking to my guns in terms of the stories I want to write has further provided more opportunities to write those types of stories.
00:52:41
Speaker
And what does the shape of your day look like in terms of how you balance your time between the research of a market, like just looking at magazines, this is what they're looking for, the kind of pre-reporting and reporting you do, the writing, the reading. How are you building your days as a small business around freelance writing so you can continually get work?
00:53:10
Speaker
it's really different because it depends on the stage I am in terms of a piece I'm currently writing.
Freelance Writing Routine
00:53:18
Speaker
So if it's a larger piece, you know, I could be working on one story for a couple weeks at a time, or even upwards of a month, which would put me at only that every single day. But you know, right now, I'm in kind of like this in between stage where I'm pitching new ideas, I'm waiting to
00:53:38
Speaker
you know, tie the knot on a couple of stories that are going to be going up soon. So during this time, I'm, I'm usually reading a lot. I read a lot every day, um, different magazines. I usually like to check out to like, you know, what are some publications kind of doing right now? Um, you know, I kind of, I track editors sometimes, you know, are they saying anything on Twitter or other platforms about what they're kind of looking for? Are they looking for pitches? Have people move jobs?
00:54:08
Speaker
It's sometimes nice to pitch an editor who has just gotten a job at a new publication because they're kind of in the market probably for great ideas because they are the newbie in the room. That's always a good thing. So I kind of do a little bit of that. And then I'm always just kind of looking for ideas in general. And I have like a document of ideas and some of them aren't ready.
00:54:36
Speaker
Some of them are, are perfect for pitching right now. Maybe I've, I've missed the jump on, on the story. So I have, I have like a working document in terms of that, but in terms of, you know, a true day to day, you know, I wake up by, I go to the gym. Um, I come home, I'm usually home by 9 15 and I usually read for the first couple hours of the day, usually about an hour and a half.
00:55:06
Speaker
And that's just kind of like setting the stage for what's going on in the world, but also what's going on in specific publications. And then I usually spend midday and into the afternoon either pitching editors or following up on pitches I've already sent or kind of going around looking for new ideas, sometimes thinking, okay, well,
00:55:33
Speaker
because of my research in the morning, it seems that this publication is looking for tech stuff, or this publication, or this editor said that they're in the market for something like this, or here's a topic that's really hot right now nationally, and I think that a good character narrative within that would probably sell well because it's kind of on the top of people's minds. Maybe also in the afternoon looking for stuff like that. Find anything interesting, put it aside. Maybe the next day I follow up on them.
00:56:03
Speaker
Um, maybe send some emails to people and sources to say, Hey, you know, is there something here? Would you want to talk? You know, kind of going back to how I kind of set up a pitch. And if I get to the point where it's like, okay, this is definitely worth pitching. I write up a pitch. I make a list of publications in order of who I would want to have it first, second, third, all the way down the line. And then I start the pitching process where, you know, I'll take an idea that I'm confident will sell. I start with my number one choice.
00:56:31
Speaker
I give them maybe five to seven days and then I follow up and then also pitch the second option and then go down the line until it's sold. And then once it's sold, you can kind of book out when and how you're going to write it. If you have to travel, you put it on your calendar and then you kind of work your other ideas around that and hopefully you have a full schedule over time. But I try to kind of do this overlapping continuously.
00:56:59
Speaker
At this point with my book just coming out and just now getting over the press and being beholden to it for about a month afterwards, I'm doing this again where it's like you start to push the snowball down the hill a bit and you want to keep that momentum going. So then you're always either pitching something new or finishing up at its own one thing or writing something new or researching stuff down the line. So then that way, you're in this rhythm and it keeps going.
00:57:29
Speaker
My day is a little bit of all the above, depending on where I am in the overall process. When I was talking to Bronwyn Dickey a few weeks ago, she's a good friend and she comes on the show every now and again and we just bullshit sometimes. She was saying that she saw a talk or attended a talk with Lawrence Wright and he pulled out his
00:57:53
Speaker
his backpack and kind of like spelled it on the table and like these are the tools I use when I'm reporting and he had the various kinds of notebooks and this that and the other and she thought that was just like so cool like this is his tool belt that he brings with him out into the field and I'd extend maybe a similar question you like what what are the things that when you're going on a reporting trip whether that's just in the city or elsewhere around the country what are you bringing with you that you can't report without
00:58:23
Speaker
Just my eyes and ears, really. I mean, I usually just leave my recorder on for hours at a time when I'm with someone, especially if I know I want to get more kind of narrative details from them. It's difficult. It's hard. And I it's hard to put it this way. But I can go back to an example that the the tractor story, you know, the two main characters have been best friends for a while. I knew I really wanted to try to get something that showed their
00:58:52
Speaker
kind of dynamic between the two of them, these people who've been friends for 50 years. And they had this really interesting relationship. They were kind of jokingly bickering with each other all the time in this way that old friends always do. And I was just like, man, I got to capture this in a really great way. And they were getting ready to go to a fundraising function. And they were getting dressed in one of the guy's homes. I was in the living room. And I had my recorder on.
00:59:21
Speaker
and they were kind of bickering about what they should wear. And I thought that was just so funny because it's like they're a married couple. And, you know, that became the lead of the story. And that was only because I was really observing them and listening to them and watching them kind of from a third party perspective where I wasn't just solely focused on getting the facts or getting the quote I needed or like, oh, I got to ask you this question. You know, I like to spend time just letting my characters kind of just be themselves. And I'm just watching them.
00:59:49
Speaker
because that's when you see kind of the real version of them and how they're going to best come across to the audience. Like if you read like Taffy Brodess or Akner when she does her profiles, like she does this beautifully where she allows the subject to be themselves
01:00:10
Speaker
And this could be for a book or a long story, but once you're out there gathering your information, what is the next part for you? How do you go about sort of curating the research or just transcribing the research and getting it down and then organizing those kind of notes so you can access them later? Yeah, I'm pretty old school with this, too. One story I'm finishing up now.
01:00:38
Speaker
It's kind of like a family crime drama story. And I knew from the outset that I could recreate the entire narrative because everything had already happened in the past. I wasn't necessarily witnessing anything of note first person. And I kind of had like the beats of the story kind of outlined in my head already. And I kind of just went in there and tried to fill them by asking questions that could kind of fill out those parts of the story.
01:01:08
Speaker
And when I got back, I had, after I transcribed my field notes and the audio, I probably had, I don't know, maybe like almost 40,000 words of notes, which is obviously a lot. And what I did was, um, you know, I had my field notes up top and I had, um, each interview.
01:01:37
Speaker
each interviewee underneath, sometimes multiple files, but I kept them by person, and I printed it all out, and it was about, I don't know, 80 pages of notes, and I just went through, and if there's any detail or quote that I really loved, I would highlight it, and I'd write a number on it, and on that number would be the section that we'd go in. I would say to myself, okay, this story probably has five or six sections,
01:02:07
Speaker
And I write at the header, section one is this, section two is this, and all these details I would just do one, two, all the way through five or six. And then as I was writing the story, I knew just by being immersed in the material what I was going to write, per se, and then I would just go back and reference these key details.
01:02:27
Speaker
for each section and that's what allowed it to fill it out. So as I'm writing, I'm just checking notes and I'm like, oh yeah, wasn't there a thing for section two related to this? I'm going like, oh, I find it. Okay, yeah, that's what he said. And I put it back and I choose details to use as quotes or choose details to translate into narrative detail. And I keep going and going and going until the draft is done. And then I would go back over the notes. Did I miss anything? Or did I mischaracterize? Or is there a quote I should use versus a narrative detail? Just a really great quote.
01:02:57
Speaker
You know, and I do that a lot. I did that for my Playboy story that came out last year. It was like a 9,000 word story about this black veteran who was killed by police. I did a very similar thing where I'd go through and I would highlight and make notes on where it should go in the story. You know, because you want to have your kind of lead to be one of the most important scenes that by itself doesn't make much sense.
01:03:26
Speaker
You know that it's very important. And then you start from the beginning and you allow the story to fill out. So you get back to that point at the end. So those are the kind of structures I use. And, you know, they're quite typical, I think, for magazine features, but to keep everything organized, I really think in terms of sections, because that's how stories are told, you know, beginning middle end, beginning middle end. How can I replicate that in my reporting and kind of organizational process? So then when I get to the actual writing, I'm not, I'm not lost.
01:03:56
Speaker
I know there are some people who are stifled by – from the writing angle, the blank page. For me, I'm more – I get more anxious with a blank notebook page, like not – well, like, shoot, am I taking down the right information? Am I taking down enough? Have I taken down too much? Blah, blah, blah.
01:04:16
Speaker
So my anxiety kind of comes on the reporting end. The writing end kind of takes care of itself. I wonder like do you have any hang ups or anxieties when it comes to either the writing or the reporting? Yeah, I mean I tend to over report which is a blessing and a curse. I mean it's a blessing because you know that you exhaust the material but it can be a curse because it requires so much time. I think a lot of the time sometimes I tend to
01:04:44
Speaker
I can overwrite in places that don't require that much detail. So the, I call it blow out where the article bloats itself. And that's where I really look to editors to try to like tone it down and say, you know, I don't want the reader to feel bored. If anyone's ever bored when they're reading my stuff, then I failed. So how can I, how can I get past that? You know, and I'm, and I'm actively at this point trying to make my writing more fast and you know, to, to really,
01:05:12
Speaker
stay interesting through every sentence because that's like the real key in terms of keeping someone with you. So that's kind of like this anxiety that I'm having is that, you know, how can I make sure that people are going to actually finish the piece? And how can I make sure that they're going to be entertained all the way through and informed to a degree where they come away saying that that was worth their time? And that's always the harder thing, especially when doing longer pieces because there's more at stake
01:05:42
Speaker
In that regard, you know, you put so much time and effort into it and if no one finishes it, then you haven't really done your job the right way. So that's, that's really kind of where I'm at on that front. I mean, if I'm, if I'm pitching an idea to get an assignment, I know that it's going to be reported out and I know that I can do that. And I really enjoy that process. I, I'm, I salivate for opportunities to go up and report from the field, especially. So I really love doing that. And then.
01:06:12
Speaker
There is a time once the reporting is done, there is a little bit of anxiety about, okay, exactly how am I going to structure this? Exactly. How is it going to be told? But normally once I get through the reporting, those sorts, those things start to click in my head. So I sort of understand them the better, like the better, um, the better attuned to the material I get. But I think that for me, it's, it's much more on the, like the line level where it's like, okay, the piece is written, but
01:06:42
Speaker
is it the best it can be? Is there anything about this that's just not right that I should change? Are people going to get through it? Are they going to enjoy it? I think that those kind of pre-publishing anxieties are the ones I deal with the most.
01:06:57
Speaker
and even uh... masters like david grande like when spoke to him even someone like him he struck by the uh... deficiencies in self-confidence allow them to finish and you we you know people like you and me will look at david grande like
01:07:12
Speaker
This guy's a master. How can he possibly be stricken with deficiencies and confidence and doubt? And it's great to know that people of that stature feel that. And I'd kind of extend that to you. If you have a crisis of confidence and self-doubt with the work you're doing, how do you power through that so you can continually churn out the wonderful work you do?
Overcoming Challenges in Writing
01:07:39
Speaker
I don't know.
01:07:41
Speaker
I guess I just asked for reassurance from my editors. I'm a continually guy who's like, I'm like, this is good, right? This is good, right? So it's like at that point, because sometimes I become quite numb to the material. I'm so obsessed with it, or I love it so much that I don't really know where it's good or bad. And it kind of just takes an outside perspective to say, we're super strong here, but this is just, we need more detail. And I'm going through this with one of my stories right now,
01:08:09
Speaker
family drama story where my editor was saying to me, you know, this is super cinematic. He's like, but you're kind of ticking off some of the biographical details where I feel like we could kind of build those out to be more emotionally relevant for our characters. And he's like, check out section two and three. And I was like, okay. And I went through and I was like, okay, that totally makes sense. But I didn't see that. Like I was so numb to it, you know, and I wasn't really thinking about those three, four or five paragraphs.
01:08:38
Speaker
But if you're a reader, to slog through five paragraphs that just don't do it for you is a lot. That's like four minutes of work, five, six minutes of work. And those things really matter when you're writing stories that are of this length that require that much commitment to read them. So I usually defer to my editors for those types of things. And sometimes these huge changes that they may throw on you that may seem like, oh my god, I failed.
01:09:07
Speaker
And they're like, no, we just switched these couple of things around. You'll see that the whole thing makes that much more sense and is that much more powerful because we're going through it this way.
01:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, and given the social media climate among creative people, looking online, it can often feel like everybody else is crushing it and you're just eating shit. And when you are confronted with feelings of competition or jealousy, how have you turned that faucet off and maybe re-channeled that energy into doing the work you're capable of?
01:09:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think that for me, a lot of it is, is like looking up to people and instead of comparing myself to my peers, which I did for quite a long time. I think it's only natural. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've kind of gotten over that hump, especially in my early career. I was very much comparing myself to my peers because I was like,
01:10:13
Speaker
Well, they're writing for those publications and, you know, um, I want to write for them too. And it's like, you know, or they're publishing more often than me and this or that, but I kind of got over that as I started just thinking, okay, well, I'm not trying to be them. I'm trying to be Patrick Brad and Keith. I'm trying to be David Grant. I'm trying to be these people that whose writing has carried me for years as kind of a, you know, a touch point of inspiration.
01:10:42
Speaker
So it's like, for me, I'm always trying to just do a little bit better than last time to find a story that's a little bit more compelling than last time to get placement that's a little bit better than last time. So then I know that these small steps will eventually pay off into something that is really fulfilling for me where I feel like I can kind of take on any story or I can hit up
01:11:09
Speaker
you know, a number of editors and they're all going to be interested in the idea. And I'm slowly getting to that point. But I think for me, it's all about just sticking to the vision that I had at the onset of this whole journey, you know, and doing the writing that I continue to to fall in love with as a reader and, you know, continue to fall in love with as a writer and just never stop pursuing that goal. Because I know if I
01:11:37
Speaker
continue to push myself to be that type of writer, you know, one day I'll be able to sit there and say that like, yes, I've, I finally did it. And I'm, you know, I'm proud of, of the journey and I'm proud of all the hard work and I'm proud of where I am now. It's a daily grind, but you know, I, I don't think I'd have it any other way.
01:12:01
Speaker
And one section I love in the book, when you were talking to Madison, who was kind of having a crisis of vision. He was kind of burned out on magic. And you wrote or said to him, I mean, it's like writing. It's like any other artistic pursuit. Your career will evolve over time.
01:12:22
Speaker
And and how would you say that your career has evolved in the time you've been you've been doing these long features? And maybe where do you see yourself going? Again, I think that the portfolio I've kind of accumulated has and the kind of trials and tribulations of getting these stories published has made me more critical of my own ideas in terms of what a story could be on the page.
01:12:52
Speaker
but also at the same time has allowed editors to become more comfortable with giving me a little bit more risk with the ideas that I do want to push out there. And I think that's probably been the biggest accomplishment so far is allowing like prestigious editors or larger publications to be like, no, we trust you. Like, you know, go out there and we're going to put all of our eggs in this basket because we know that
01:13:21
Speaker
you're going to come away with something that's after some editing and after some back and forth is going to be an amazing piece. And that's so reassuring in that way. And I hope that that stuff can just continue where my stories can become more complex and more nuanced and better told because I'm continuing to progress as a writer myself. And it's all about that sort of balance game and that sort of collaborative environment
01:13:51
Speaker
where I'm seeking out editors that I know bring the best out of me. And hopefully these editors are seeking me out because they know that I can bring the best out of their instincts as a curator and that I can bring stories to their publication that best suit their overall mission. And that's kind of where I'm at, you know, like I don't want to stop doing these types of stories. And, you know, I do want to find my next book and
01:14:20
Speaker
I do want to just keep the ball rolling and continue to get better because that's kind of the name of the game for me is that if I'm not continually progressing, then what am I doing? What did you learn about yourself as a writer from doing the book versus the magazine pieces you had done prior?
The Book Writing Experience
01:14:40
Speaker
You look at a book, it's just such a different animal. My book was 93,000 words. That's a lot of writing.
01:14:50
Speaker
I think that the pacing of a book is what I was really, that I kind of struggle with in the early parts of writing it because in journalism, it's like, okay, you need to give us the goods pretty soon. But in a book, you can really allow the story to evolve more slowly. And I kind of like that because I was able to kind of sit there and write with much more detail and at much more length than I normally would. So that was a huge learning curve for me
01:15:20
Speaker
But I enjoyed it very much so because it really showed you how a book should be structured. How do you keep someone with you? How do you keep their attention for 300 pages? Every so many chapters, you have to hit a beat. You have to hit a narrative beat. You have to hit the emotional beat. You have to let the reader know that we're moving towards an ending that's going to be satisfying for you. And those are how some of the best books are structured.
01:15:50
Speaker
And, you know, I just finished reading Say Nothing by Patrick Ryan Keefe and his structure and pacing is just masterful because it's after every chapter or every two chapters, like all these beats are being hit, like every character is coming back in just enough of the right way to keep you interested, to let you know that there is dynamic change, that things are moving forward and that, you know, he kind of sets the premise at the beginning as to what the ending should be.
01:16:17
Speaker
And as you get closer, you know that you're going to be given the ending that you want. And I think that that's kind of the bigger picture about understanding storytelling. It's not just like, oh my God, here's this really cool thing. Let me write a story about it, right? You have to know that the logistical and the emotional storylines are going to be resolved at the end. Like you read White Darkness by David Gran, his New Yorker piece.
01:16:47
Speaker
And you know that this guy is pushing himself to the limit to accomplish this insurmountable kind of goal. And in your head, you're reading it and you're like, this guy's either going to do it and live, or he's not going to do it and he's going to die. And you know it's one or the other. And you know the ending is going to give you that. But it's, you know, it's the way in which you tell it that brings out that tension. And it's the level of detail.
01:17:16
Speaker
and the pacing of it that kind of puts forth its importance, not only to the person reading it, but to the context in which it happened, to the guy's family, to what it means to be a human in exploring the world in which we live. All these sorts of things are wrapped up in these stories. With books, it's similar as a magazine story in terms of what it has to entail, but just on a much larger scale.
01:17:45
Speaker
So it was definitely a learning experience, but I worked with a really great editor, Kerry Thornton, at Day Street Books, which is an imprint of Harper Collins. And she was really drilling that into me. It's like, Ian, we have to hit these beats every so many pages. So then the reader is continually being reassured that this story is going to be worth their time.
01:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, you struck a wonderful structure with it, with the personal stuff, like bringing your mother into it at opportune times, making sure that throughout the book we're kind of learning cool things about magic tricks and sleight of hand, how these people you intersected with, their victories and losses over the course of their lives, and every so often you just got a nice taste of all these people throughout.
01:18:32
Speaker
As someone who likes to deconstruct these books and see how the structure is done, I was like, I can see what you were doing. It was so well done that it just pulled me along. I was able to read this thing in no time, and I'm not by no means a lightning fast reader. So it was like such an enjoyable experience with a cool, cool subculture to boot. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it was definitely a learning curve, but working with Carrie, she kind of taught me
01:19:01
Speaker
that, you know, this is how books should be structured. So all this makes sense, you know, where she's like, you know, the, the emotional stuff, the top line narrative, you know, as the book goes, you see them coming together toward like at the end, you know, and, and there, you know, there's no door unopened as you go, or it's like, you know, you're ticking off all the boxes. And at the end, everything comes together to like a nice tight resolution, where you come away and you're like,
01:19:29
Speaker
wow, everything was resolved in the story and I feel better for reading it. I mean, that's kind of the ultimate goal. And I think doing the book is going to make me a better magazine writer. So I hope to take some of these skills that I've learned here and apply them in the magazine world. And then as I write more books, hopefully get better and better at identifying that structure before I even think about the story being a book where I can say I can see it as a full book.
01:19:59
Speaker
And this is how it's going to be. And it's the perfect story for it. It's the perfect structure for it. And it's going to work. Because that's the whole part about pitching a book as well is proving that there really is an ending that's going to act as a true resolution for the story.
01:20:16
Speaker
And I love too at the end, this kind of harkens back to the beginning of our conversation about sort of that inclusivity and finding family among these people.
Ian's Connection with the Magic Community
01:20:25
Speaker
Like at the very end of the book, and this isn't like a spoiler or anything, but it's just like, you know, you write that these are my people now.
01:20:32
Speaker
And I imagine that was like a really powerful thing. You were able to practice your tricks, you wrote a trick, or wrote, invented a trick, I don't know what the exact term is. But like, and you got the the 52 tattoo and everything and it was just like, you, they put their arms around you and like, that must have been an amazing feeling to
01:20:55
Speaker
dive into this subculture and then not only sort of helicopter in, but to also be, be, uh, be told that you are in fact, one of us now. Yeah. It's just strange. You know, it became like a daily part of my life. You know, I didn't even felt like I was really writing this book in that way, or it's like, oh, there's this book you have to do. It was just kind of like, well, this is my life now. I'm just writing about it. And, you know, it was just, yeah, it was an amazing experience. And,
01:21:24
Speaker
I'm so glad that it became such an integral part of my life. I feel like I'm a better person now because of it.
01:21:32
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Ian, you've been incredibly generous with your time. Thank you so much for your time and the work you do in magazines. Magic is Dead is an amazing book, an amazing debut, and I can't wait to have more of these conversations as you churn out more and more wonderful work. Lastly, where can people find you online to get more familiar with your work if they're not already familiar with it?
01:21:56
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you can go to my website, ianfrisch.com. It has a bunch of my articles up there. And you can follow me on Twitter at ianfrisch or Instagram at ian underscore Frisch. I'm always posting about random stuff on there and promoting my work when it comes out. I got a couple of pieces on deck for the next couple of months. So those will be out soon. They should be pretty fun.
01:22:24
Speaker
So yeah, I'll still be cranking out. I'll still be here, feeling my thing, you know?
01:22:29
Speaker
That was fun, right? I think so. He's a good one. Great writer. Knows a thing or two. Go buy that book. It's a good one. Go read it quick. It's one of those. If you feel generous and want to do something that only costs you less than five minutes of your time, which I understand is a big ask after you spent the past 75 minutes listening to this show, kindly leave a review on Apple Podcast.
01:22:55
Speaker
and link up to the show on your favorite social network. Isn't that fun? I've brought back the wildly popular promo deal. You leave a review and send me the screenshot of the published review. I'll edit and coach up a piece of your work of up to 2,000 words. Takes me about three hours to do it. So that's like $150 value there for just leaving a review.
01:23:21
Speaker
Helps the show's packaging, you know? I mean, aren't you more willing to listen to a show that has like a shit ton of nice reviews? I know I am. Keep this conversation going on Twitter, friends. At Brendan O'Mara, and at CNF Pod, Instagram's at CNF Pod, and Facebook is the creative non-fiction podcast.
01:23:44
Speaker
Is that it? Could it possibly be it? I hope so. I'm tired, man. I got a headache. It's time to go. Remember, friends, if you can't do interview, see ya!