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"Grief Has to Be Witnessed": Jane Oh on Child Loss, & Healing Hearts
2 Playsin 6 hours
Some losses don’t make sense—and they don’t fully heal. In this episode, Bruce sits down with Jane Oh, founder of Healing Hearts Child Loss Support Group, for a conversation that stays with you. Jane takes us into the moment an ordinary day turned catastrophic, the silence that followed, and what it feels like when the world keeps moving even though time has frozen for you. She opens up about cultural stigma, grief carried in silence, identity and career loss, marriage under pressure, and the loneliness that hits when the casseroles stop coming and people don’t know what to say.
This isn’t a conversation about “moving on.” It’s about witnessing grief without trying to fix it, learning what real support looks like months and years later, and building meaning around lifelong love. Jane also shares the catalyst that changed everything—connecting with another parent who had been alone for more than a decade—and how that moment became the foundation for a peer-led space where parents don’t have to pretend they’re okay. If you’ve ever wondered how to show up for someone in grief, or if you’ve ever carried loss quietly, this episode is for you. #Grief #ChildLoss #InfantLoss #HealingHearts #GriefSupport #GrievingParents #PodcastInterview #MentalHealth #TraumaHealing #unsolicitedperspectives
Chapters:
00:00 Some losses don't make sense—and never fully heal 💔🕯️🎙️
00:10 Welcome to Unsolicited Perspectives 🎙️🔥💥
00:00:45 From Catastrophic Loss to Healing Hearts 🕯️🏡💛
00:00:59 Child loss grief: "we're not gonna look away" 🧠🫶🏽⚡
00:05:09 "Any ordinary day" turns catastrophic at daycare 🚨🏥💔
00:10:03 IVF as grief-distraction—$130k, miscarriages, exhaustion 💉💸😔
00:14:19 Cultural silence: stigma, "bad luck," erased photos 🥀🧊🕳️
00:18:24 The catalyst: 13 years alone—peer grief breaks isolation 🤝🏽😭🌧️
00:24:17 Grief fog + loneliness + "your future has died" 🌫️🫂💔
00:28:33 Stock market mirrors grief—builds seven-figure portfolio 📈🧠💰
00:35:09 Marriage after child loss: "snowflakes from the same storm" ❄️⛰️💔
00:40:28 Why they stayed: "he's half of what I lost" ❤️🩹🪞🫂
00:41:57 Real support: presence after casseroles stop coming 🫶🏽🥘⏳
00:45:09 The surviving sibling: privacy, stuffed animal, priorities shift 🧠🧸🫶🏽
00:47:38 Grief reshapes ambition: love/happiness over achievements 🌱❤️✨
00:50:13 "Grief is evidence of love"—permission to grieve and live 🕯️💛🫂
00:52:17 Grief Has to Be Witnessed—Stay Present. Don’t Disappear. 🕯️🫂❤️
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Transcript
Introduction and Topic Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Some losses don't make sense and you never fully heal. We're going to get into it. Let's get it.
00:00:17
Speaker
welcome first of all welcome this is us listening perspectives i'm your host bruce anthony here to lead the conversation in important events and topics that are shaping today's society join the conversation to follow us wherever you get your audio podcast subscribe to our youtube channel for our video podcast youtube exclusive content and our youtube membership rate review like comment share share it with your friends share with your family hell even share with your enemies On today's episode, I'll be talking with Jane O about the unimaginable loss of a child and what it means to find meaning, connection, and purpose after that kind of heartbreak.
00:00:56
Speaker
But that's enough the intro. Let's get to the show.
00:01:07
Speaker
Today's conversation is a heavy one, but it's also an important one. Some losses in life are unexpected. They're painful, but they follow a rhyme we understand.
00:01:18
Speaker
And then there are losses that break the natural order of things. The loss of a child is one of those losses. It's the kind of grief many of us hope we never have to understand.
00:01:29
Speaker
And because most of us won't experience it firsthand, it becomes invisible, hard to talk about, hard to sit with, easy to look away from.
Meet Jane O and Her Mission
00:01:39
Speaker
But today, we're not going to look away.
00:01:42
Speaker
Jane Oh is the founder of Healing Hearts Child Loss Support Group, a peer-led community created to support parents navigating life after the death of a child. Her work has been a lived experience from the unimaginable loss of her son.
00:01:56
Speaker
What she built isn't about moving on. It's about creating space where grief can be witnessed without judgment, where parents don't have to pretend they're okay, where community replaces isolation. This conversation isn't about fixing pain.
00:02:11
Speaker
It's about understanding it. It's about compassion for a loss that may not be comparable to anything else and recognizing that even if we don't share that experience, we can share empathy.
00:02:23
Speaker
So today we're going to talk about child loss. about marriage and identity after tragedy, about the silence that follows funerals, and about how meaning and connection can still grow around lifelong grief.
00:02:38
Speaker
And without further ado, here's Jane O. As I said at the top, I'm here with Jane O. She is the founder of Healing Hearts Child Law Support Group. We're going to be talking about Something that's important, not only for people who have actually gone through this, but for people that know people have gone through this.
00:02:59
Speaker
are not even knowing people that has gone through this, just something to put into your sphere to let you think about how other people live or what they've experienced and have empathy for
Life Before and After Tragedy
00:03:11
Speaker
them. So Jane, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show, telling us your story, telling us your work. This is an important conversation and I'm glad that we're having it.
00:03:23
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you, Bruce, for having me and giving me the opportunity to speak about my journey. it's It's my pleasure. Now, I start off every interview with let's go back. Let's go back to the beginning. Before we get into the work that you've done, the losses that you've experienced, can you take me back to who you were before all of that? What shaped you? What grounded you? What type of person were you becoming?
00:03:51
Speaker
So before my life changed, because now there's two parts of my life, the before and the after. I'm obviously not the same person I was, you know, after what's happened to me.
00:04:02
Speaker
i had a very beautiful life. I have a wonderful, you know, physician husband who I'm very proud of. You know, we went through professional school together and i had a tremendous career and just a normal life that I really took for granted.
00:04:19
Speaker
you know And I'm a child of an immigrant. My parents came to America 30 years ago and you know brought us to U.S. And you know we we were disciplined and we worked really hard to achieve that American dream.
00:04:35
Speaker
I became a dentist and you know you know went through financial hardship of paying off my loans and you know building a practice and you know all of that and built a beautiful family.
00:04:46
Speaker
And I was at the top of my game. I think I was at the top of my world. I mean, I'm 47 years. I will be turning 48 actually in March. So, wow, I'm almost 50 years old. you know Happy birthday.
00:04:59
Speaker
but Thank you. And i I have to say my 30s were really hard because that's when I lost my son. you know i I left him at a daycare and and he died in daycare.
The Day of the Tragedy
00:05:13
Speaker
And it was any ordinary day that you were just going to have. Like I had friends over. We were having a great brunch. And they left and I was cleaning up the kitchen and I get a phone call saying, your son stopped breathing. So I ran to the emergency room that day and just watched him die right before my eye. I mean, it's the most...
00:05:36
Speaker
you know It's the most difficult thing that that you can ever see is being helpless as a parent to know that it's completely out of control, right? you know Even if I'm... I was on my knees and hands begging the doctors to save him. And they did try for an hour to get him back. But ultimately, you know they had to say...
00:05:55
Speaker
It was done. i mean, they couldn't save his life. I saw the emergency room doctor slamming his fist on the table and just walking away in despair, you know, because there's nothing like losing a child.
00:06:08
Speaker
And the result was that he died of SIDS. But we're really not sure because the but by the autopsy report came back as, you know, he had viral pneumonia. But they don't really like to even label SIDS anymore. They don't, you know, if they find like a little bit of like, he was sick with a cold. So, you know, they labeled it as viral pneumonia. But I don't know why the term became like almost like political. Like they don't they don't they try not to to diagnose that as SIDS anymore.
00:06:37
Speaker
So well um you learn something new every day.
Family Dynamics Post-Loss
00:06:40
Speaker
I didn't know that. So take me back. and and And this is is always a touchy subject, the loss of a child. I just want to go back to.
00:06:50
Speaker
The beginning of meeting your husband, having a family, you and and you have a another child as well. just that just Just walk me through that process of because you said you are on top of the world professionally and personally. Yes.
00:07:09
Speaker
Take me to the process of building the family. Well, you know, we we really struggled, right, to get through school because it was so hard. And, you know, my husband and I did long distance for four years while we were in professional school. I was in California. i went to Loma Linda University. So I was there and he was in Illinois. He was in an MD-PhD program. which is, you know, really hard, but it helped pay for his call of medical school tuition. And I came out with, you know, a lot of lot of debt.
00:07:39
Speaker
And, you know, it it was a struggle to pay that off. So we actually put off having our family because I wanted to make sure that he got through his training. And I wanted to make sure that, you know, I was successful and that I was paying down and my debt. And, you know, that's what I did. I just, I worked really hard. And, you know, the funny thing is when we first got married, we didn't even want to have children. know But then when I entered my 30s and, you know, I had a great career, that was really hard to give up too because...
00:08:08
Speaker
you know As a woman, you just have that biological clock that you feel like, okay, if you don't do this now, like you might miss that opportunity. So when I had Jimmy, my my oldest, I was 34. So i don't feel I don't feel like I was super young, um but I wasn't super or old.
00:08:25
Speaker
So I had my baby, and my God, I'm telling you, Bruce... When I saw that baby, it's it's just like that that kind of love you just, you never, you you can't even imagine, you know? And if you believe in God, I felt like, wow, this this is what how God loves us. That's what I felt like looking at your child. And it was such a gift.
00:08:47
Speaker
And I embraced that motherhood. I mean, even my mom said, my God, like you love your career so much, but for you to even want to go down to part-time or wanting to quit. I mean, she found that to be like amazing that I was willing to give up my career for my child.
00:09:00
Speaker
and And I did go down to part-time. But, you know i was hesitant about having another baby because I didn't want to give up my career all the way. So there was still that ambition.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I did have Alexander five years down the road because I was approaching 40. And I was like, oh, my gosh, my biological clock is ticking. And my by then, my husband had become
Journey Through IVF
00:09:21
Speaker
partner and he was, you know, making great income. Like he was really successful.
00:09:26
Speaker
So I decided that I'm just going to cut back in dentistry completely. and I wanted to be home to my two boys. So yeah, so I had the second baby and what I did learn is, you know, you can't really time life.
00:09:40
Speaker
You just can't. What I'm learning is that there's never a right time to have a family. There's never a right time to build a business. You just have to do it, you know, when you feel that it needs to get done because I regretted having my second baby so long because after he died, I started on IVF right away. I didn't have the fertility that I did.
00:10:02
Speaker
And you know with that pregnancy came a lot of complication. I ended up having to you know cut out an ovary because a cyst grew with it. So when he died, ah you know before he died, when I was giving birth to him, told the doctor, just you know just do the cell endoectomy, which is where they cut the fallopian tube. So I sterilized myself because I decided that I didn't want to have more babies. I was getting too old and i was having complications with the pregnancy. ah That's another mistake I made was just doing something that was irreversible, a procedure.
00:10:35
Speaker
and i like But you never know the future. So ah here I was, I had a dead child and i don't have I don't have my fertility anymore. So the only option was to do an IVF journey. And I think that was a distraction because that was my way of getting through the grief, right? And i am telling you right now, I have a whole new respect for women who are going through infertility because I have been on both sides of the fences where I was able to get pregnant very easily. I was i never even thought about that. it just
00:11:05
Speaker
As soon as I was off the pill, I'm pregnant, right? And then there's whole you know population of women who struggle with this. And here I was now doing this exercise. horrific journey where I'm injecting myself with all kinds of hormones. But in reality, what I was trying to do was i was trying to bring back my my son. Okay. But you can never bring back the child you lost. I don't care if you have 10 children, you lose one. It's, it doesn't replace the one that you lost.
00:11:31
Speaker
Ultimately the IVF failed. I miscarried all four embryos, two years of doing it. So I was grieving and I'm doing ivf and spend $130,000 because you know ivf is very expensive. It's expensive and very...
00:11:48
Speaker
like taxing physically, correct? Yes. yeah because It's not an easy process for most men out there. Like, what's the big deal? You just get a shot. No. No. If known anybody that goes through it. It is very physically taxing. It is because for women, it's extremely invasive because you have to go under so that they can retrieve your eggs.
00:12:08
Speaker
And I was doing this at one of the world's best fertility clinic. It was called Colorado you know Institute of Reproductive, CCRM. And Dr. Schoolcraft was amazing. Like, I mean, he will get like all the Hollywood stars pregnant, right? I mean, this is how desperate I was. And, you know, he looked at me and said, I'm sorry, but your, you know, AMH level is so low, which is like the egg count. And he said women's fertility just drops after 40.
00:12:35
Speaker
And he recommended that I use donor eggs. But, you know, after two years of doing it, I just, I didn't have the energy anymore, you know? And it was weird, like looking through lists of women that I was, that was supposed to look like me.
00:12:47
Speaker
You know, it's like looking at a dating site. And I'm trying to like look for women that like, that had like my weight, you know, my height, you know, but then they would take that woman's egg and then they would put it with my husband's sperm and impregnate, you know, put it inside my uterus because I still have good uterus. It's just my eggs were bad. And when I thought about that, I just, I just decided, you know, maybe it's just not meant to be at that point. So I was just tired. Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
Instead of OKCupid, it was OKDonor. I can't write this. Exactly. It was OKDonor. So you're going through all of this. Yeah. And was there a moment where, and maybe not right away, because you said this was two years after the fact that you're going through this, but was when was that moment? so No, it was like right after he passed, I was doing IVF.
00:13:38
Speaker
Oh, wow. So it it yes it there was no, not a whole lot of time passed. But you were doing IVF for two years. Yes. Yes. So in that two-year process, when was the moment that hit you or was it afterwards when you realized that you might be able to turn this grief into the ability to help other parents going through the same thing?
00:13:59
Speaker
You know what? No, it didn't. That didn't hit me until eight years into my journey. i did I did my journey alone because I'm South Korean.
00:14:11
Speaker
And my parents, you know, they still don't speak English very well, right? So there is like a... But I speak Korean very fluently because I came when I was nine. And I had no choice but to, you know...
00:14:23
Speaker
have my language intact. Otherwise, I can't communicate with them. Now, my parents are very, they're they're immigrant parents, but they still haven't assimilated to American culture because, you know, they have very hard work ethic, but they're also very stoic.
00:14:37
Speaker
And, you know, my brother and sister, there's three of us, and they're also dentists. So, you know, they have achieved American dream in our Asian society because, you know, we have very hard work ethic. They push education very hard.
00:14:50
Speaker
And then suddenly you have a daughter who had lost a child and then it's become like a stigma, right? And it's become a shameful thing because nobody, like the the relatives, they didn't know that I had lost a child because that's something that they didn't want to talk about. My parents came and decided that there should be no trace of Alexander. Like they said, it was bad luck.
00:15:11
Speaker
They got rid of all the pictures. You know, they took out his picture and, you know, they wanted... Yeah.
00:15:19
Speaker
that i was they couldn't accept that could those actions have pause the eight year journey could head head you had a little bit more support and just say you ever get over it yeah But when the grief had lasted that long, there's a difference between grief and remembrance, right? Like we remember the loved ones that we lose. That never goes away. The grief is doesn't stick with you every day. And eventually at a certain point, the grief of a lost loved one will come and go based on moments that remind you of a time.
00:16:06
Speaker
Mm-hmm. During that process of eight years, was the grief every single day? And if so, did ignoring that or doing away with Alexander's stuff kind of make it so that it would last for eight years?
00:16:25
Speaker
I think that it, the grief just never left. I think I was in denial. I told myself that I was over it and i had moved on with my life. ah You know, we packed up from Illinois and moved back to Washington state. That's, this is where I grew up for the most of my life.
00:16:41
Speaker
And, you know, my, I think You know, the Korean culture is in a way that it's so, it's Confucius. Like it's fly-o-piety. It's all about respecting the elder. We carry our grief very differently. We carry it with dignity and silence.
00:16:57
Speaker
And so for me to try to blend that with the Western culture of being open about it, it was hard because you have to integrate both both of
Founding Healing Hearts
00:17:06
Speaker
it. I think the grief, you know,
00:17:09
Speaker
that you never quite heal from something like this. i But you learn to carry it. Yeah. Okay. And i didn't even understand what carrying that meant.
00:17:20
Speaker
And, you know, i I lost my career as a dentist as a result of this. You know, i I couldn't practice dentistry anymore. It just, I wasn't in a line with my career. I don't think I was even mentally stable to to go back and take care of the patients. I lost my career.
00:17:35
Speaker
that last That resulted in loss of who I was as as a person. So here I was, I was watering my garden one day, my new house, and I started crying because I realized that, you know, not only did I lose my son, but I also lost who I was.
00:17:50
Speaker
You know, I didn't even know who I was at that point. But i I was still trying to live a life somehow. I was trying to survive and I i didn't know what I was going to do.
00:18:02
Speaker
And then i I ran into one of the moms, like, you know, somebody called and said, Hey, can you reach out to this mom? Because, you know, she's also Korean, but she's had no one to talk to for 13 years about losing her son.
00:18:13
Speaker
So I did, and we started crying. We FaceTimed because she was in California, and she said, Jane, you're the first mom that that i have talked to. And I felt like there was something so broken in our culture where where we shouldn't have to do this journey alone.
00:18:30
Speaker
So that was a catalyst. That was the moment I knew that I wanted to do something more meaningful with our loss because I realized even after eight years, that sadness was always going to be there. But I also learned that it's okay because grief is love that has nowhere to go. oh Okay? Yeah. I mean, it it really is. And I decided that, okay, it has nowhere to go, but I wanted to build it a home for it to go. So that's when I decided to create my Healing Hearts community because I didn't want to do this journey alone and I felt like no parents should. it's It's a load that we can carry together.
00:19:07
Speaker
and And it just makes it more bearable when you have that community. And I wish I had known that. I wish somebody had told me, you need a peer group. You need that support. Because I had never gone counseling. I never had a peer. I didn't even feel like I had the right to grieve in a way because I lost my child at five months. And that there are parents who've lost older children. And and my mom has said that to me. She goes, she said, well, you didn't have that relationship with your son. So how can you be grieving that hard?
00:19:35
Speaker
ah i i You know, that a lot of people are going to listen to that and say, how could a mother ever say that? But...
00:19:45
Speaker
i I'm not super familiar with the Korean community, but I am familiar with my own community. And there is in certain communities here in America where you are taught to suffer in silence. I could just say it from a male's point of view, right? From a male's point of view, we are taught as little boys, you fall and bump your knee. Don't start crying.
00:20:08
Speaker
Be a man. And you suppress silence. Dealing with pain. And that's ah anytime you've got to suppress something, that's not good. You need to deal with first. But we were taught that. Yes, we were taught. We were taught that from age that when you fall and you scrape your knee, you don't cry about it. You get up and you just keep going.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yes. And that's the problem in our culture is that they are trying to fix our grief. you know But the the thing that people don't realize is grief has to be witnessed.
00:20:37
Speaker
play And i actually read about a village in Australia. When somebody dies, the whole villager goes in their house and change things around their house.
00:20:48
Speaker
Why? That's witnessing somebody's grief to say your life has changed forever.
00:20:56
Speaker
That's interesting. Well, OK, so you're dealing with this all along. Yeah. But there's still a there's still a funeral.
00:21:08
Speaker
where everyone shows love and recognizes in that day your pain. What did the silence of the house feel like and what support disappeared faster than you expected?
00:21:24
Speaker
Well, the silence you know the silence of the house is is just numbing. you know And and then you realize that time is just frozen for us.
00:21:37
Speaker
And it's like, I don't even know why the world kept going. I was wondering, like, how could how could the sky get dark? Like, why is, you know, it's like every morning I would wake up and I would realize I lost him all over again.
00:21:51
Speaker
And, you know, that your your your body almost like feels that until your emotions catch up in the morning. And... And the support fades away pretty fast, I'm going to tell you, because people are not comfortable with it. They don't know what to say. And I don't even think it's because people are being cruel. They just don't understand that. And let me give you a clear example of that. It's like asking for a direction from people who've never left their home.
00:22:19
Speaker
okay And, you know, it's... It's not because that they're cruel, but they they don't know what to say. And when they don't know what to say they don't contact you, you feel the isolation.
00:22:31
Speaker
You feel that they're being they're pushing you away and you're you're being abandoned. You don't feel seen at that point. And I think part of it is because they're confronted with their own fragility in life and it's so uncomfortable.
00:22:46
Speaker
Hmm. You know, because you never, and I never thought about death until I lost my son. I didn't think a normal day would turn into that kind of event, that catastrophe, because it is catastrophic. Your whole life is changed. a Thought about death at all or death like that?
00:23:04
Speaker
I think a death like that is is unnatural, right? Because you're not supposed to bury your child before you. And when you lose a child, it's I feel it's it's not a competition, obviously, because any loss is is traumatic and it's sad. But to lose a child, I feel, is different because that's an extension of you.
00:23:24
Speaker
Your child came from your inside. And when they die, part of you have died. Mm-hmm.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. And so at this moment, you just felt alone. And then you said that things were stripped of the house that would have you remember your son.
00:23:45
Speaker
So what is your daily routine? What are you doing each day? Because you don't have your career anymore. You can't work. So i it's interesting because...
00:23:57
Speaker
I think the first five years I was in a fog. You know, I i i i think, I don't even remember if I got up. I remember brushing my teeth and just saw tears falling down. And didn't even know where the tears were coming from, you know? And it's really like the worst feeling.
00:24:17
Speaker
it's It's like you are so lonely. I think the loneliness was the worst part of it. Yeah. that no one can understand that depth of just despair and and that longing and that yearning for your child.
00:24:36
Speaker
I mean, your my arms just felt so empty, you know, that I couldn't, he was not there anymore. it was a shock of it. Mm-hmm. And and to to know that your future is gone. Because when you lose your parent, you you talk about all the things they've accomplished or you know people who are older. But when your child dies, like your future has died. like all the What you could have been as a parent, what the potential that they had, like those are all stripped of you. And then people tell you, you're very strong. No, I'm not strong. I don't have a choice. What they don't see is the ache that
00:25:11
Speaker
And the joy that you you constantly have at every milestone, you have that joy. Like I have friends whose sons get married, their daughters get married. But you know what? They carry that sadness that same day because they know that somebody that should be there is not there. You know, it's it's carrying that together all the time. you you I feel intense joy. i do.
00:25:34
Speaker
But I feel that more because I know what grief feels like. But would I ever take this grief away? No, because I loved. My grief stems from the deepest love because I have loved so deeply.
00:25:55
Speaker
Wow, thank you for sharing that with me and with us, all of us. this is Like I said at the top, this is a really important conversation that people are going to they're goingnna feel. You just had me feel. I'm about to start crying on here. We're going two people crying together on this podcast. um let's Let's get to... we'll We'll get more into this, but let's take a ah a kind of a breather and get to your work. Because after...
00:26:23
Speaker
Eight years, there was a moment where Healing Hearts and the idea of it came to mind. and And it seems like it stemmed from talking to the other woman who had gone through the exact same thing that you had.
00:26:40
Speaker
Yes. So that work came. So during the five years, I want to tell you, okay, I i was, you know, ah an amazing dentist. Like I loved serving my community.
00:26:51
Speaker
And then I knew that I was still had a lot of talent. And, you know, I was a classical violinist. Like that was my major in college, you know, so all the discipline I took, the, you know, Playing the violin is is not easy to do it well because it takes a lot of hours of practice and discipline. I took that, I actually took my music major and applied for dental school. So, and they thought that was kind of cool because they usually have science majors and here I'm coming in with a music degree.
00:27:18
Speaker
um When my career ended, because I decided that it was not in alignment with who I was, I wanted to spend my day you know as a mother to my remaining son.
Prioritizing Family Over Career
00:27:28
Speaker
Because you know what, Bruce? I'm not going to lay in my bed wishing that I had done one more root canal.
00:27:32
Speaker
Because I realized... I realized my time with my family was more precious because I realized that tomorrow is not guaranteed anymore. And I wanted to see my remaining son grow up. I wanted to be at home when I pick him up. I wanted to be in every aspect of his life. I don't think he likes it because he's a teenager now and he loves it when I'm gone.
00:27:51
Speaker
But you know but you know I wanted to be present. So what I did was I watched the stock market because I just really like reading the market news. And I i didn't even know what Nasdaq or Dow Jones or any of that was. But then I noticed the graph. And I'm very analytical, too. And I was like, you know what? That kind of mirrors my grief. The ups and downs of the market, right? Like the volatility...
00:28:15
Speaker
the part that it's out of control. And grief is like that. It comes in waves. Like there's stretches of like great days, like the market, like markets running really high. And then there's days like it's falling so bad, right? And you have no control. And I just felt like it mirrored my life and and my grief. So I decided to, you know, to study it and I ventured into it. So I just invested, like I i didn't day trade. i you know, learned about the market. I understood the endurance and just having the patience of it, just like my grief.
00:28:45
Speaker
And I and ended up building like a seven-figure portfolio over time. Okay. and Yeah. and And I decided, you know, when I started this organization, what a great way to fund my own charity, I thought. You know, what a meaningful way to turn my grief into something that's purposeful. Because when you honor your loved ones,
00:29:07
Speaker
You know, that is what you want to do is give back to the community, turn the grief into a meaningful work and turn that love into light for other people. I don't want to be the brightest burning candle, right? I want to be the longest burning candle that's going to light all the parents, you know, ah along my pathway because I didn't want somebody to do the journey alone like I did. I needed to be the person eight years ago for me, for somebody else.
00:29:33
Speaker
you know That was my goal. and And I found the pageant system, which was interesting because I am running for the state pageant for the title. And I decided it's not for status.
00:29:44
Speaker
It was a way, if I win the title, I feel like it will be a microphone issue. to to let people know, hey, but there is an underserved group of parents who don't have that support. Truly, we don't. Like, even in my community, there's nowhere for these people to go. You know, they come to my meetings twice a month. I open up my home, and it's such a loving environment for us. It's healing. It's it's incredibly sacred space because these people are sharing their most vulnerable stories, and I am and i am honored to witness their grief for them.
00:30:18
Speaker
And that's different, right? peer-to-peer organization is is different. Yes. When people have actually experienced a loss as opposed to people who just studied it.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. where Where did you see, where do you see that maybe the two can meet? Because there's obvious, there are people that have been through it.
00:30:45
Speaker
that can speak to something that people that haven't, but then there's the other aspect of the mental health, the psychology of it. Whereas, they Other people may have not gone to med school or studied psychology, and and and you could, not to say that your group has this, okay, not to say that at all, but there could be a situation where you have people that have experienced certain things talking to each other and don't know what the hell they're talking about. Like, we experience that a lot here in America anyway.
00:31:18
Speaker
but Understanding that, yeah, the peer to peer is is so vital because you need people there to have experience. It is. Because when we're in the same room, we don't have to say anything. Like we can sit there in silence and completely understand that grief.
00:31:38
Speaker
But at the same time, I don't want people leaving my meeting feeling worse either, right? Because that's not the goal, okay? So, you know, we encourage each other. We always try to carry that hope because we loved our children. And it's it's a nice space to be able to talk about it and not have judgment. It's a safe space. It's inclusive. Grief doesn't care if you're rich or poor, what color you are, you know?
00:32:03
Speaker
And i I have decided that... I have hired a therapist, actually, to help me with facilitating the meeting once a month. And, you know, we have to other... we I did it twice a month because I don't want somebody to go too long without a meeting. Right, yeah. If they just can't. And I decided to... The reason why decided to hire a therapist is because, one, I wanted her to equip us with tools on how to handle certain situations. Because...
00:32:30
Speaker
you know if if i Sometimes I'm embarrassed to say, but if I'm in a grocery store and I hear certain music that brings back memories of my son, I might i might just break down. And then I learned how to do like box breathing. you know So you you know I just feel like every parent needs to be equipped with tools to handle difficult situations or how to respond when somebody tells you to get over it.
00:32:53
Speaker
and And we hear that all the time, get over it. When they tell me, get over it, I ask them, how long is my child going to be dead for? oh Go ahead. Let them know. Right. like Because everybody a got an opinion about something that they've never gone through.
00:33:08
Speaker
You sent me a you're working on a book and you sent me a chapter. Now, first of all, let me just say, as I was reading the chapter, the I fancied myself as a writer. My first major in college was journalism, and I wrote for the school newspaper, and I thought that I was a creative writer. My sister has a degree in film, director, editor, wrote a screenplay, the whole nine.
00:33:35
Speaker
The chapter that you sent me was so... good And it's descriptions, the painting of the moments, the painting of the day. um I could smell and feel everything that you were describing in this chapter.
00:33:54
Speaker
And, i you know, I'm not going to say it brought me to tears, but there were some moments that I had to take a a deep breath because it was very emotional. Yeah. and in this chapter, you talk about how...
00:34:09
Speaker
The chapter based on on you and your experience. You and your husband yeah start passing each other like ghosts, both grieving but unable to reach one another.
00:34:22
Speaker
What does this type of grief do to a marriage when both people are drowning in that grief? Yeah. You know, so many marriages don't survive that. I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of marriages can't because the reality is marriage is hard. It's not just bed of roses, right? I've been married for 21 years.
00:34:41
Speaker
And, you know, there's times when when marriage is just stressful, even when you don't have a loss like this. But when you have a loss like this, i mean, it's it's just a bomb, right? And...
00:34:54
Speaker
Even though we both had this, we're both carrying the same grief and this shared experience, it was still very lonely because no two people grieve the same way. It's like having snowflakes.
00:35:08
Speaker
It's born out of the same storm. But each snowflake is so unique. And my husband grieved in a very different way than I did. And the best example of that is two people are on a mountain.
00:35:20
Speaker
You know, your legs are broken. You're looking at each other like, yeah, our legs are broken. Like, how are we going to get down? We chose to stay on that mountain together. Okay.
00:35:34
Speaker
First of all, congratulations on 21 years of marriage. Thank you. You got a birthday and 21 years marriage. It's big deal. And a pageant. And we have a trip to France coming up. So yes, lots good things. Got a lot of things going on. So congratulations to all of that. So as you guys are both going through this.
00:35:51
Speaker
and passing each other as ghosts and dealing with grief your own ways as you're internalizing your grief. And he's probably doing the exact same thing of yeah internalizing his grief. He's probably thinking, I need to be strong for her.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yes. And avoiding everything that he needs to deal with. What type of complications did that cause? And how did you guys work your way through it? You know, at one point, I remember screaming at him and I said,
00:36:20
Speaker
I gave birth to him. I hurt more than you. and And that was probably not not the right way to deal with it, but that's what happens. Like you start to say that my your grief is bigger because I felt like that, you know, he was grieving so hard, but he was not letting me in.
00:36:41
Speaker
And at some point I wanted to move on, but I felt like he was wanting to hang on to that. Like, for example, I wanted i wanted to put all this baby stuff away and he didn't want to. Well, thought you said your family did that and that you were a little hesitant when they did that. Oh, that was with the photos. So when initially when he passed, you know we had like you know his play stuff and like his bouncer and all of that.
00:37:03
Speaker
And you know i after just... Looking at that and with no baby in it, I just wanted to get rid of it. I just wanted to put it away in the basement. And my husband was very hesitant. like He did not want to. But he's not home. I'm home most of the day. So i I put it away without his consent.
00:37:19
Speaker
And then you know yearss when I moved back to Washington, we had pictures of the baby. My parents wanted to take that down. you know so oh yeah yeah So that's what happened. But yeah, it's it's hard because we had to work through...
00:37:32
Speaker
You know, that kind of emotions. And then IVF failing. I mean, it was really hard on the marriage. Like to go through fertility treatment. like you know to I have friends whose marriages don't work out because they've lost a child.
00:37:46
Speaker
It's very common to see that. You either grow together or you're going to stick together or you decide to go separate ways. And I've seen affairs happen. i've seen Because people deal with it in an unhealthy way.
00:37:59
Speaker
You know, I would just say that your husband loves you a great deal. Because if my wife had told me you don't love my baby as much as I love my baby, I would have been like, excuse me. Yeah, that is my baby, too. yeah But that's also the reason why, ladies and gentlemen, I've been divorced for over 13 years. So anyway, yeah. Anyway, so what was it? What was it that you guys finally realized? I mean, you yelled at him. Did something snap for him? Was there counseling involved? Because how do you deal with the grief, the individual grief that you have? You also have another child.
00:38:40
Speaker
And still work on this marriage at the same time. Because I was explaining to ah people last week on the podcast that a friend of mine is getting a divorce. They've known this person for 20 years, very similar to your situation. And I said, why are you getting a divorce? It is like I matured and grew as a person and this person did not. They're still the same person that I married.
00:39:07
Speaker
I'm not. And so you're just dealing with the grief of a loss of a child, being parents. And then also you guys are also growing up.
00:39:19
Speaker
You're going from 20 to 30 to then your 40s. So you yell at him. He snaps out of it. What was the work after that? You know, growth is never linear, right?
00:39:32
Speaker
It's never linear. I mean, I wish you can say it's straight up, but it doesn't work like that. And I think through the process, we realized that grief changes over time, just like relationship.
00:39:44
Speaker
It doesn't get any easier, but it does get softer over time. And what really made me realize that I wanted to stay with my husband was he was half of what I had lost.
00:39:56
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Okay, he's half of my son. And he's the only person in the world who is going to understand the depth of my love because he loved my our son just as much.
00:40:10
Speaker
And when I realized that he really is the mirror image that I was looking at, then it made me realize that I could never live without him. And that I appreciated that he was building that stable foundation for me.
00:40:28
Speaker
And I was the advocate for this family. Like all the work I'm doing for my nonprofit, I couldn't have done it without him. He's silent partner, but he's there holding me. you know And i I truly appreciate that because now I realize that marriage isn't just about you know the initial excitement. You know you you grow through that. you know You live really, truly, it is for better or for worse.
00:40:57
Speaker
you know and And it's so hard. It's a commitment. It's a discipline. It's endurance to stay in it together. But the reward is great if you can make it through that.
00:41:07
Speaker
yeah And I know that he carries my son's DNA. And when I look at him, I see my son there. Yeah. For someone listening to this who loves a grieving parent but doesn't know what to say,
00:41:26
Speaker
What does real support actually look like in the months and years after a loss like this? I'm going to tell you, the greatest mind cannot touch a broken heart or bleeding heart.
00:41:40
Speaker
It just can't. Only love and faith and hope can touch that. And if someone can sit there and tell you, i don't know what you're going through, but I'm willing to sit here and cry with you and be present for you is all we want.
00:41:57
Speaker
We don't need a silver lining. We just need to know that you're going to be present for us. When the casserole stop coming, I need to know that you're still going to be in my life. I already lost a child. I don't need to lose my friends too.
00:42:10
Speaker
Right. But on a side note, no tuna casseroles. like casserol that I do love casseroles. was a moment where I had to step
00:42:23
Speaker
away. And that moment is when your son, and that beautiful chapter that you sent to me there is a there there was a moment where yeah i had to step away and that moment is when your son Yeah.
00:42:42
Speaker
As when is his little brother going to wake up? How do you even begin to explain death to a child when you're having trouble processing it yourself?
00:42:56
Speaker
I remember sitting in the emergency room, holding my son in his lifeless body and just unable to let him go. Right. And I looked at my husband I said, what do we tell Jimmy?
00:43:10
Speaker
He loves his brother. Like, what are we going to tell him tonight when we get home that his brother's not coming back? I think that was the most important. broken feeling I ever had to know that to tell my other child who I loved so much to tell him that his brother wasn't coming home and I don't even have an answer for that right and you know at the funeral i remember Jimmy holding Alexander saying mommy you like why is he so cold like you know why isn't he moving Jimmy was five and what do you what do you tell that that child
00:43:47
Speaker
I mean, he he just started his life, but now he has encountered death. And, ah you know, all I could do was say, we'll see him again one day. You know, the only thing I could tell him was, I can't explain it, but we will meet your brother one day again.
00:44:05
Speaker
When that conversation, when he gets, when Jimmy got older, what was that conversation like? And... What has it been like for Jimmy? Have you had those type of conversations with Jimmy to live in the shadow of a brother who has passed away?
00:44:23
Speaker
You know, it's it's funny because he's very private about that. like He doesn't tell even his friends that he had a brother. he does have a stuffed animal that my friends had made for me with Alexander's pajamas that he always keeps with him. And, you know, it's funny because when I'm being bad, you know, he's more mature than I am sometimes. He's like, Mom, like, you're not going to go to heaven and you're not going to be able to see Alexander. ka for jesus Come on, Jimmy.
00:44:55
Speaker
yeah So, you know, he's giving me a lecture. know he And yeah, so it's I'm really, really proud of my son because he's well-adjusted 13-year-old boy. I mean, he gets straight A's, you know, and he has, you know he's so well-rounded. He's a great violinist and he's got a lot of friends. I mean, he's doing advanced math and, but you know, yeah. I don't really expect, I have a different priority now. I don't look at my son and think, oh, I need you to be a doctor. I need you to be a judge. like I need you to be high achieving. don't really care. At this point, I want him to live longer than me.
00:45:27
Speaker
Outlive me. And I want him to be healthy and happy. Like for me, it's not just about achieving success anymore. My priorities are just, just different when I look at that. It's not about getting into Ivy League. It's not about, you know, achieving straight A's. Like the mental health, being grounded, having integrity, just being a good person. And please, please like live longer than your your parents. Because I don't think I can deal with another loss like that. I just can't imagine. Ooh, like that leads me to a and really interesting question that I just thought of.
00:45:58
Speaker
Do you think the grief taught you that the successes weren't as important as love and happiness?
00:46:10
Speaker
Like when I, the the reason why I ask that question is because a lot of times we set these goals for ourselves as as people, not even just adults as a people yeah and say, I want to accomplish this goal.
00:46:21
Speaker
And you accomplish a goal that, and you don't really reflect on it, there's another goal. and And you realize that even though you're accomplishing these goals, that you're and you're not completely satisfied.
00:46:34
Speaker
So my question is, do you think that grief showed you that love and happiness is more important than the actual goals that we wish to attain?
00:46:46
Speaker
If those goals are are not giving us that I think so because I used to think, oh, you know, if I could just become a successful dentist, like, you know, I never thought at this point in my life, I thought I would have multiple dental practices and I'd be building an empire. I didn't think I would be, you know, building a support group because I have a bigger vision than just this meeting in my living room. I want to actually...
00:47:10
Speaker
build a scalable model where I can implement this into other communities. I'm using my group as a test model right now, using my scientific brain to figure out what's working and what's not, and building a facilitation manual. Because when I first started, I didn't know how to carry out a meeting, but now I do.
00:47:27
Speaker
There is a certain structure that really works. And if I can actually get it into ah a format like a cookbook i feel like yeah i can implement this into other communities and and build leaders that can you know make it grow So my vision is so much greater than my mission is greater than even my loss This isn't even about like my loss,
Redefining Success
00:47:48
Speaker
right? This is about telling everybody else's story so Helping others. Yes. Your loss led to you helping others. Absolutely. Yes. And yeah, so I i don't believe that even though I have achieved the financial success, it felt empty for me, if that makes sense. It felt hollow because I wanted to, you know, do something with the achievement that
00:48:13
Speaker
That was meaningful to honor my son because when I do see him one day in heaven, I imagine telling him that I have loved him all my life and that I have lived my best life by serving my community.
00:48:28
Speaker
And that was how I honored him. Yeah. I always tell people money doesn't give you happiness. Money will put a down payment on happiness, though. It will put it down. you like but Money will give you a nice place to sit and cry, though. Yeah, it will. money won't give you happiness. It'll give you a down payment on happiness. But the true path to happiness is purpose.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yes. Finding the meaning. Yes. Purpose and meaning. you find that You find that inner peace that you're looking for. When people walk away from your meetings with Healing Hearts or even this conversation, yeah what do you hope they carry with them about grief, about love, and the possibility of meaning or purpose after loss? Yeah.
00:49:21
Speaker
Grief is not something that you should be ashamed of. That's an evidence of your love. Definitely. I would tell people that it's something that you carry with you. like i carry I take the grief as a light into my heart.
00:49:36
Speaker
And to me, it's joy that I carry now instead of just the sadness. Because grief isn't about being sad. It's about you know honoring the the ones that you love. It's saying that their life matters. So make your life matter for them. Right.
00:49:51
Speaker
And, you know, live your life. Find something that you're passionate about. But know that it's okay to be happy. Give yourself permission to be happy.
00:50:05
Speaker
And give yourself permission to grieve and to be sad. Yes. And also, you know, use that to find meaning. i I believe that that's the sixth stage of actually grieving is when you do find meaning.
00:50:19
Speaker
Hmm. Okay, because when you find meaning, you you don't suffer as much because I don't tolerate meaningless suffering. Huh. You just added a six. I thought it was the five stages of grief. You just added a six stage to the grief model. Yes.
00:50:36
Speaker
Jane, I want to thank you so much for coming on this show, being open, being honest, being sincere, and teaching. letting us into your life.
00:50:50
Speaker
And I know that this conversation has touched a lot of people. I'm telling y'all, y'all, the when the book come out, oh I'm telling you, I read that first chapter and it was intense and good.
00:51:04
Speaker
and i And I wish you nothing but the success in that. But more importantly, this conversation was important and I know it's going to touch a lot of people. So thank you. Thank you so much, Bruce. And, you know, stay in touch with me, okay?
00:51:17
Speaker
I definitely will. Okay. All right. Take care. What you just heard is one the conversations that will sit with you. Because child loss is the kind of grief most of us pray we never have to understand.
00:51:31
Speaker
And that's exactly why so many parents who live with it end up carrying it alone. Not because people are cruel, but because people don't know what to say. And silence can feel like abandonment.
00:51:44
Speaker
Jane came on here and did something rare. She let us witness it. She talked about her life having a before and an after, about the day that started like any other day, brunch with friends, cleaning the kitchen, and then one phone call that changed everything.
00:52:00
Speaker
She told us what it felt like to run to the hospital to watch the chaos of the doctors fighting for her son's life and to face that moment that no parent should ever face. And then she took us into what happens after the world stops for you,
00:52:15
Speaker
but keeps moving for everybody else. She described the numbing silence of the house, how support fades faster than people realize, how grief can make time feel frozen, waking up each morning and losing them all over again.
00:52:32
Speaker
She also gave language to something so many people never say out loud. Grief doesn't just take the person you lost. Sometimes it takes you too. She lost her son.
00:52:43
Speaker
And in many ways, she lost a version of herself that existed before that day. Her career, her identity, her sense of safety in the world. It all shifted.
00:52:55
Speaker
We talk about what this kind of grief does to a marriage, how even when two people are carrying the same loss, they can still feel miles apart. But we also talked about what it looks like to keep choosing each other through it, to understand that for better or worse, isn't poetry.
00:53:12
Speaker
It's endurance. And for anyone listening who has ever worried they'll say the wrong thing to someone grieving, Jane made it real plain and simple. You don't need the perfect words.
00:53:24
Speaker
You don't need silver lining. You just need presence. The kind of presence that doesn't disappear when casseroles stop coming, even if they tune the casseroles. The kind that says, I don't know what to say, but I'm not going anywhere.
00:53:39
Speaker
She even gave us a line I'm not going to forget. Grief has to be witnessed. And she's building a home for it. That's what Healing Hearts is. A peer-led community where parents don't have to perform strength, don't have to move on, don't have to carry the load by themselves.
00:53:58
Speaker
Jane's turning love that was nowhere to go into something that could hold other people. And that is a purpose in its purest form.
Supporting Grieving Parents
00:54:08
Speaker
So if this episode moved you, don't just sit with it.
00:54:12
Speaker
Do something with it. Check on somebody. Stay present longer than the moment. And if you know a grieving parent, remember, you can't fix it, but you can witness it.
00:54:25
Speaker
And to Jane, to moment thank you for trusting us with your story, your work, and your heart. I want to thank you for listening. I want to thank you for watching.
00:54:37
Speaker
And until next time, as always, I'll holla.
00:54:45
Speaker
That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast wherever you're listening or watching it to it. Pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock will will enjoy it also. So share the wealth, share the knowledge, share the noise.
00:55:08
Speaker
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00:55:19
Speaker
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00:56:02
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for listening and watching and supporting us. And I'll catch you next time. Audi 5000. Peace.