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092 - Reclaiming Team Spirit w/ Vinny Malts
130 Plays1 month ago
Why are today's most skilled athletes struggling to play together?
In this conversation, mental performance coach Vinny Malts [@coachvinnymalts]—known as "the player whisperer" for his work with NHL, ECHL, and elite youth hockey players—breaks down the hidden crisis in team sports: we're creating individual wizards who can't think collectively.
In this episode, you'll discover:
- The mental effort paradox: Why today's athletes are working harder than ever but appearing to try less
- High standards, high love: The critical element most sports parents are missing (and how it's damaging their kids)
- The collective intelligence gap: Why analytics and skills coaches are making teams slower, not faster
- Tone, Target, Timing: Vinny's three-part framework for peer-to-peer feedback that actually works
- Chaos before order: Why great leaders let the mess happen first instead of forcing structure
- The diner menu effect: How too much information is paralyzing decision-making on the field
This conversation challenges the entire individual development model that's dominated youth sports for the past decade. Vinny reveals why the "backyard ball" mentality isn't just nostalgic—it's neurologically superior for team performance.
Whether you're coaching high school athletes, managing club teams, or navigating the pressure-cooker of competitive youth sports as a parent, this episode will fundamentally shift how you think about player development, team chemistry, and what it actually means to lead.
The game hasn't changed. But the players have. And if we don't adapt our approach, we're going to lose the very spirit that makes team sports transformational.
*NEW* Education - Captains & Coaches course, "Why They're Not Listening - Coaching Today's Athlete": http://listen.captainsandcoaches.com
Training - Old Bull Program - 7 Day Free Trial - https://bit.ly/old-bull-train
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Transcript
Team Collaboration vs. Ego
00:00:00
Speaker
We're going make it so the number one rule is going how can I help you? How can I support? How can I help? If everyone on the team was thinking that way, that team would be faster than any other team alive.
00:00:10
Speaker
yeah Because all I'm thinking about now is, how do I help you? And how do we keep the sequence going based off of, I'm just supporting you? How do I do that? That's the very nature of what team game is. So imagine if every player's mindset was, how can I help you?
00:00:23
Speaker
You'd watch again be like, oh my god, it's like super fast. Yeah. Because no one's thinking anymore about their ego about, i I need to do this. I need my points. i need do this. And the irony is how much more would be created off of that? Because it's like, right, how do I support you? out The cognitive burden would be so much less, right? The creativity would be so much more. The success would be even greater. The wins, all this stuff. Imagine if we just fundamentally, like, how can I help you? But genuinely, as a principal, was like, no, no, I'm committed to that. Like the leader. yeah And then began, i like we were talking about, like, as a leader, here's why I'm doing it. I'm responsible for that.
00:00:54
Speaker
Imagine players thought, Yeah, I'm responsible. How can I help you? Welcome to the Captains and Coaches podcast. We
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:01:00
Speaker
explore the art and science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. I'm your host, Texan Quilkin, and today's guest is someone who's been called the player whisperer for his transformational work in mental performance coaching.
00:01:12
Speaker
Vinny Maltz is a former professional hockey player drafted by the Vancouver Canucks who spent over 20 years coaching at every level, from youth hockey to the NHL.
00:01:23
Speaker
Vinny is a USA Hockey Level 4 certified coach, Mindset Performance Institute Ambassador and host the Evolving Athletes Podcast.
00:01:33
Speaker
In this conversation, we'll slide into why effort has changed for today's athletes, the clash between individual development and collective intelligence, and how coaches and parents can create environments where young players truly thrive.
00:01:49
Speaker
With that, let's
Evolving Effort in Athletes
00:01:50
Speaker
pass it off to Vinny to help us raise the game. Ready, ready, and break. We are live on location in Reston, Virginia. We're at the Coach's Room Mastermind.
00:02:01
Speaker
So that's that's how we know each other. So shout out Coach Cav for this amazing networking connection. You're the man. And ah love everything you're doing, love the content you're putting out.
00:02:12
Speaker
And I have a question for you. When did trying become not cool? What's going on with our teenagers these days? Are you seeing this as well? Are parents communicating this? Are coaches communicating this? Or is it just me?
00:02:25
Speaker
No, no, it's um it's it's an interesting case, right, of like, you
Patience and Cognitive Development in Young Athletes
00:02:30
Speaker
nailed it in terms of, you know, trying is always relative, right? Like I always think back to like, oh, I'll give you a simple example that kind of leads into where we can go with this.
00:02:40
Speaker
So one of my original students, when I started into the mental performance space and all that, he was 12 years old at the time. yeah And you know, and I'd watch him play, he was a hockey player.
00:02:52
Speaker
And so when I watch him play, I could see mentally he was really working hard to try to figure things out. So you'd see his body was gangly, like he was like a big 6'4 kid at 12. He was already beast, right? Oh yeah. He like- Was he big for Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For his age, it was just like big, gangly, right? Like giraffe looking.
00:03:10
Speaker
And physically, when he would try to make a move, he'd put himself in bad positions. But mentally, he was thinking, he was putting effort into, I want to make that play. But his body couldn't keep up.
Parental Expectations in Youth Sports
00:03:20
Speaker
So I remember having this discussion with his dad and we would chat and basically he was like, i don't understand man, like why isn't he moving? of any anyway I don't get it, dah, dah, dah. Like he's not moving his feet, he's not moving his feet, he's not his feet. He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is where you're struggling.
00:03:34
Speaker
You think it's physical. I can see when he's in certain positions, he's moving and he's trying. So you never consider it's mental. he's He's trying really hard mentally to focus a lot more.
00:03:48
Speaker
And like if you watch it now and you see it, he's dialed in, so he's using the effort, cognitively speaking, to think through the process more than his body's allowing him to go go do naturally.
00:04:00
Speaker
And so I remember him like, he was like, wow, like I didn't think of it that way. Like, huh? And then he kind of saw it as he started to watch him moving forward. And he picked up when he was like, okay, I can see what you mean. he's He's putting a lot of time into thinking. He's trying to make the right thing, but his body can't keep up.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so now when I look at today's day and age of what's happening, of why these kids, I think... you know just opinion and just kind of understand the cognitive science and like what's going on.
00:04:24
Speaker
i think they're putting in way more time into thinking effort. And I don't think there's a difference between physical and mental effort in terms of how much output you can actually give into something where I'm going to work hard at something.
00:04:36
Speaker
And so I think what we're misperceiving is what was once looked at as just physical effort because we didn't have a lot of schema. Like we had a lot of creativity. Like I know in our day it was like you played outside and and you created and you did things, and but you didn't have the skills coach
Gamification in Coaching
00:04:50
Speaker
or the expert coach or all these people telling you, hey, here's the five exact steps that if you do this, you're gonna become mechanically beautiful and amazing and just listen to me and do what I'm telling you to do.
00:05:00
Speaker
And as long as you keep doing what I'm telling you to do, you'll be successful. We were just like, let's go play. yeah Let's go play. ball That's it. so I think the physical effort allowed us to put all that time in.
00:05:11
Speaker
But the mental effort that's now required with all these experts, all this stuff, it's a different form of effort. And I think that's likely what we're seeing in this process. Yeah. And I've heard you speak on the the pro fallacy before.
00:05:25
Speaker
So what's the expectation of club parents? Yeah. When they try to think, OK, that this 12 years old, yeah what's their expectation? Is too high or is that high expectation good for their kid?
00:05:38
Speaker
High expectations, great. It's the response to it. It's the impatience to it. So, you know, you can have, hey, high expectations, right? And I want to make sure that you're going into it. So there's a great book, 10 to 25, that talks about that. Interview David Yeager. That's unreal. What a book, eh? Unbelievable. But that lays out so much of like, I can put high pressure on you, high standards on you, but I also have to give high love, high support. and be like, hey, just
Building Team Dynamics
00:06:10
Speaker
as much as I'm going to put, you're going hit this. I believe you can do it. But at the same time, hey, I'm there for you. I got you. And that's where the disconnect happens with a lot of parents is that they want the expectation and they want to be there. And it's like, this to happen because you're adult. They're not trained in any of this stuff. don't understand. All they see is when you get older, you're have to be this way. They're not realizing, like, as developers, we can see a five to 10-year timeline and be patient. And even at times as professionals, we can still kind of, ugh,
00:06:37
Speaker
But we have the training and ability to hold ourselves back. Whereas parents, they know, like, I have high expectation, but the high love, they have it. But in the moment of whatever your sport is, they lose control in that environment. At home, they're more relaxed. I love you. I'll put in bed. Yeah, exactly. You hope. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Good call. um but it But that's the part where when we get into the environment, right, there's all the studies about uniforms. When you put the uniform on, you change.
00:07:07
Speaker
I believe a lot of times when parents go to the field and they go to the uniform and you go there and you drive and you you've invested all this time, it's like this other version of a uniform for parents.
00:07:18
Speaker
Where when I go there, I
Player Autonomy and Team Strategies
00:07:20
Speaker
expect something out of you. I expect something out of this investment. You're going to learn to work hard. You're going to learn to be a good human being. And I want to see something result come out of that because it's about what I think.
00:07:32
Speaker
And that's really challenging is like it's OK to have a high standard, but you have to work on weight, the high love that you're going to give and the high support. That's you. So what are you doing to participate knowing high standard unconsciously? OK, that's going to be there naturally. We all have high standards. Obviously, if you're going to be involved in anything, that's high level sport.
00:07:52
Speaker
But you have to also realize with that comes the responsibility of how am I going to emotionally control myself? How am I going to emotionally support you? How am I going to love you? How I going to believe in you? And that is the adult in the room. That's the leader. That's the work that you have to do is got to control myself and not just be spastic and erratic and all.
00:08:10
Speaker
The irony, you put your kid into the sport for discipline. Where's your discipline? Oh, yeah. So then how do you navigate that conversation with the parent when
Balancing Individual Skills and Team Intelligence
00:08:20
Speaker
you start to see their behaviors that are not in line with with high discipline, high character, what your expectations of an athlete is? Yeah, so when I was dealing a lot more with the younger players, I'd always love this one from the kids. They'd always be like, yeah, they'd be like, daddy gets to yell at his clients. Because they'd never been giving it to a parent. And it was literally, I was giving it to a parent.
00:08:42
Speaker
And they'd be like, oh, my God, he yells at their dad. Is that the parents? are that ah And they were loving it. They were like laughing, right? And so it was a mixed bag, you know, because it was like some of them I knew needed tough love and I needed to give it to them. Like I would yell at them, but I would be yelling at them constructively. and say, what are you doing? It's your kid. You care about them. You're to mess them up.
00:09:01
Speaker
Because that's what happened to you eventually hit that threshold where there's so many conversations we had. Hey, different techniques. Hey, listen, you know what? Why don't you stay ah stay away from the other parents in the stands? Why don't you stay in the car until this time after the game? Why don't you take a breath before they come in the car and you and you realize, all right, I'm not going talk to you about the game. So i would give all these techniques, all these things to try.
00:09:24
Speaker
Do it. Let's see what happens and see where it goes. Yeah. And they wouldn't do it. no So i would just lean into them.
Collective Intelligence for Team Effectiveness
00:09:30
Speaker
And that that was a big reason, ironically enough, of like why I started to get away from dealing with youth in that way, yeah is because it's already hard enough to deal with a high school age player, older college player, pro player, where you're helping them understand how to manage themselves and then also how to manage an adult that doesn't understand it the same way they do now. Now that they've had the training and they've they're now the expert,
00:09:53
Speaker
Right now, they're the ones that are the adults in the room, but the kid's 21 years old. and It's like, I'm dealing with this professional coach he's been around for 30 years. It's like, I've got to be the adult in the room in this context.
00:10:03
Speaker
So that's super hard. So if you start to now take the complex layers, right, all the different parts of parents, it's challenging. It's challenging of dealing with some because some the disposition is there and they get it and they want to help. But the the challenging ones, I'd have to say on a large majority,
00:10:21
Speaker
They're hard to deal with because they don't want to do the work and they want somebody else. They play the victim and they want somebody else to fix it so yeah for their kid. Like it's not, they're not looking at themselves in the mirror and saying, it's me.
00:10:33
Speaker
no No, no, it's, well, you have to teach and you have to, do they're they're no different than the coach that screams at the kid. They're doing the same exact mechanism. They just don't see because they don't know. Right. And then the coach is the back. It's the coach's fault for the kid not. It's everyone's fault. Accomplishing this. big goal It's everyone's fault, not their kids. No. And it's just like it's wild. But the irony is they're getting them mad at their kid.
00:10:54
Speaker
So so not only are you getting mad at everybody else, then you're taking it on your kid on top of it. And it's like, what are we doing?
Leadership and Emotional Support in Coaching
00:11:00
Speaker
Or they're teaching their kid how to act an adult. That's perpetual generational sport trauma. That's unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. um I love, one of my favorite things is is team leadership. So leading the mental and emotional state of a team. Yes. But to get there, got to lead the mental and emotional state of individuals. Correct. So then taking that time to get to know each dude.
00:11:23
Speaker
So then by the the time we do get to season, fortunately, lacrosse the spring. So I got all a fall to build up and lead up to the spring. Yeah. So what would be your mindset and approach and guidance for any coaches out there to lead a team?
00:11:37
Speaker
Do you take that start with the individual approach or what's your perspective once you walk into a locker room for the first time with the expectation to lead a team? Yeah. So there's couple dynamics. The first one definitely is, you know, depending on the situation, are you coming in the first time and you haven't met anybody yet, you know, versus you're getting to meet everyone, have a meeting with them individually and all that.
00:11:55
Speaker
But I will talk about general context of your meeting them for the first time. So
Impact of Gamification on Player Engagement
00:12:00
Speaker
it's really finding who you are naturally that is the person that like I love to coach and I love to lead.
00:12:06
Speaker
Who is that? So as the leader, you got to get to the core of what it means to you and understand that about yourself. Because that's always going to be your anchor. When the stress kicks in, when all that stuff happens, you have to always know why you're doing it. And you're always reminding yourself of that, of like, why am I in this? What am I? And it's literally a daily reminder. Because what it's doing is it's laying the baseline for you of this is what I committed to.
00:12:29
Speaker
I chose to be here. Nobody told me to lead. Nobody asked me to be here. Like, yeah, I mean, they asked of like, I interviewed whatever it is, but I'm choosing to participate as the leader in this environment. So that's the first foundational first principle is you understand why you want to do this.
00:12:46
Speaker
Then from there, you start to build out the context, right? Clarity is one of the most important parts, right? Clarity of your message. What really matters the most to you and your messaging and being clear with the team. So at the start, you know, from a hockey context or a sport context, I always look at it as chaos theory. I'm i'm not a fan of if you're meeting a team for the first time, you're working on it for the first time, that you have too many things that you're already creating as the identity.
00:13:12
Speaker
You got to give it you know four to six, eight weeks of like, let's kind of see what we have first before we jump in and start giving you a bunch
Cultural Impact of Sports and Media
00:13:20
Speaker
of stuff of like, this is what we're going to do. Yeah. I've seen that go wrong a lot. Big time. For cert. Yes. you You can't have order, right? It's the opposite. Chaos theory is let the chaos happen and then develop order based on the conditions of what you're observing. not the other way around. Oh, we're going to make order out of chaos. That's why the whole world is a mess in that way. of like Everyone's trying to make order out of something that is chaotic by nature. like Human relationships are complex.
00:13:43
Speaker
So you do that as a leader and then building the relationships with the players. And one of the easiest ways right that I found with the players is really getting to know what they believe about themselves.
00:13:56
Speaker
what do you What do you see about yourself? What do you think? like Who are you as a player? And giving them that confidence, giving them the permission to feel that. Because majority of coaches, of what you see out there is doing what?
00:14:07
Speaker
I think I see this. I want to fix this in you. This is your weakness. This is the problem. This is what we need to do. Everything is such negativity of I want to change you. What I found in dealing with our pro players, college players, all that stuff,
Improving Team Communication and Dynamics
00:14:20
Speaker
you can't change a human being. You can awaken ideas in their minds, but a Porsche is a Porsche. An SUV is an SUV. Thanks for calling me a Porsche. Yeah, you're a Porsche. But you know vehicle's the vehicle.
00:14:35
Speaker
So if the vehicle, I'm going to turn around and now I want you to be something completely different than your nature. Cognitively speaking, that's such an uphill battle. As opposed to, if I can get to know you, I've watched you, I've seen things and I go, man, I love your speed. I love the way you do it. Let's really optimize that. How can we use your speed in the game and how can we use that? And then, hey, Vinny, you know, you're bigger, boom. Okay, how can we get you to battle more and do that? So it's figuring out the game conditions, but it's building it around the nature of the individual and then having that conversation with them to create belief, to create that feeling of like, yeah, you see me, like, yeah, you get me. That's exactly how I play, how I love i love to think that way. So as a leader, that's your job on the individual end is to get to what do they genuinely believe about themselves. And then you've got to do the work of building the framework and the game around that. And that's how you start.
00:15:26
Speaker
Then it gives you, then it's emerging property. Then once you have a good conversation, you know what they're thinking. Okay, now, oh, you saw when I talk about this, they like that versus that. They don't like that. Okay, well, this part I understand as a professional, they're going to need work on that for their future. to have to see how I present that information to them because if they don't have that, that's going to present a problem later on down the line. So I got to be sensitive with that.
00:15:47
Speaker
But on the other end, okay, but the other part, okay, I'm
Interpersonal Dynamics and Effective Communication
00:15:50
Speaker
to make sure how do I build this construct around where they know this is really good in the game when you're doing this and I want to elevate that, but it's natural to their tendencies. So that's going to be easy to convince them of that.
00:15:59
Speaker
That's the game. Like it's, so, you know, you look at how am I approaching, why am I doing this? Because we're all going to get stressed. You have to consistently keep reminding yourself of like, I chose to be the leader.
00:16:10
Speaker
I chose the responsibility. That's what comes with the territory. You you don't have to coach. And then it's getting to know everybody, their nature. How do they just naturally think, plus the layer of in the future, where do I see a constraint that if they don't work on this thing? And and I would say to the listeners, just pick one thing. yeah Don't go nuts.
00:16:28
Speaker
It's one season. Pick one thing that you can work on with them that you think is really important for the future. but don't try to fix all the stuff because it's just not, we all know as coaches, leaders, like it takes time, especially when they're younger.
00:16:41
Speaker
Let them explore, let them hear you over and over again. know, we talk about the primary versus secondary. So the idea of the primary is this is the one thing you're going to work on, but we're going to try to figure out a hundred of different ways that you can work on that one thing, like any great coach, right? It's like, we're going to hammer away at this one play and this one movement, but I'm going to show you how you can adapt it a hundred different ways But fundamentally, it starts from this core element.
00:17:04
Speaker
That's what you do is open their minds to see, oh, wow, I can i can explore so many different directions. Yeah. Yeah. Fundamentals first, and then we'll work on style because there is so much creativity allowed. That's why bingo hockey, lacrosse, basketball, I love Where football is do your job. You have one assignment on this particular play.
00:17:23
Speaker
Exactly. Hockey, I can make four different decisions. I got four options on this one. Exactly. First one, score. Yes.
Enhancing Player-to-Player Feedback
00:17:30
Speaker
Then I got a a two and a three. Yep. Time out. Coach, have you ever felt like your athletes shut down tune out or just too cool for coaching?
00:17:38
Speaker
You want them to listen. You shake them. You know this attitude and approach that they're taking with their training or their practice in front of you is not going to lead to success on the field or off the field later in life. And you have to change it.
00:17:53
Speaker
Athletes today are operating on a different internal system and we need to course correct on how our approach is going to land with them. And that's why I wrote the new course, Why They Won't Listen, Coaching Today's Athletes.
00:18:10
Speaker
If you want to learn more, head to listen.captainsandcoaches.com for this online course. If you want the first lesson free, see how I break down and combine whiteboard lecture and practical demos, movement-based lessons, so that you can bring them to your practice and your training environments.
00:18:29
Speaker
Again, head to listen.captainsandcoaches.com to learn more and get that free lesson. And now, back to the show. Ready, ready, and break. now building into the team. This is the the fun part. my fair So a lot of coaches, they they come up with the message. I like to give the autonomy to the team to come up with messages, cliche or silly as it may be. yeah What would be your guidance to then help lead those guys ye to then come up with a core message for this season? Yeah, yeah exactly. Well, it's it's both, right? it's I like to look at it as it's the knowledge versus wisdom gap.
00:19:07
Speaker
The players have the knowledge, you know especially if you're dealing with like a higher
Gamification Success Stories
00:19:10
Speaker
end player. Like I tell you all the time, when your kid turns 12, 13, and they've been at it, and they're playing a high level sport, they're already an expert.
00:19:18
Speaker
Mom, dad, step aside. They they they know more. if they've They've been playing in their field, unless you played, and you're a parent that played, all that stuff, and you understand at that level. From my experience, those parents are the best parents. Yes. So they respect your space and time. Bingo. It's the parents that never played lacrosse that they are the toughest to deal with. thousand percent.
00:19:37
Speaker
Thousand percent. So it's that the knowledge that now these players are coming up with they understand it. They get it right, but the wisdom is the principles. So the knowledge is okay.
00:19:48
Speaker
Hey guys, you know like we're having the conversations and we're opening it up to the players. What do you guys think about you know what it is? So like I'll give you a simple example of zone entries in hockey. I've talked to a lot of coaches about this, where why don't you talk to the players and like how often are they talking about give the foundational concept. OK, so like in hockey, it's first man wide, second man to the net, third man high as old as time. Right. One of the core fundamentals. I believe you. Yeah. Right. And so so that's a principle.
00:20:18
Speaker
But within that now, okay, i gave you guys a principle structure, but now I want you guys to talk and play with how you're going to bend it, how you're going change it. You guys have the autonomy now. These are some principles that just work, right? This is why it works. So you want to be very clear on the principle, pass the wisdom on. Here's what it does. When you go wide, it opens up space, right? When you drive the net, you're pushing guys back. When you're up high, you're providing support as another valve to able to get a nice shot, clean shot off.
00:20:44
Speaker
So you're very clear in your direction of why the principle in general, so they understand the meaning of this is why the
Hockey Movies and Cultural Reflections
00:20:50
Speaker
foundational principle theory is there, right? But then, now, you guys make it your own.
00:20:56
Speaker
Now play with it. you can You can bend it and give them ideas. You can bend it so many different ways. But I want you guys to come up with that because I'm not the one that's out there with you. I don't know what that's going to look like with you. And I think that's where we miss a lot of the autonomy aspect of it is we don't give the wisdom in a way that's like, let me just give you good groundwork foundational theory principle that you can go play with.
00:21:18
Speaker
And then I'm gonna allow you now communicate with each other, you know, and play with it and create it and turn it into whatever you need to turn it into, but make it your own. And i think that's where the disconnect happens a lot is, hey, have the autonomy, go do whatever. But if you're going whatever without any new wisdom,
00:21:35
Speaker
what are you really doing? Because the brain needs to know like, oh, I know this is gonna work. yeah So let me borrow some of your wisdom to know, oh, okay, coach gave me some, I respect coach, coach cares about us. and ah Okay, I'm gonna listen to that because that feels like wisdom that they care about me and that sounds right, that sounds like good information.
00:21:52
Speaker
So now you're given the permission to explore, but they're exploring within a framework that's gonna give them even more success in the autonomy. yeah Because if you if you give it without any kind of foundational principles,
00:22:04
Speaker
then they're kind of guessing and and it's and collectively and then you yell at them for not doing it what was in your head that you didn't explain bingo bingo exactly and i and if we wanted to really simplify it i think the biggest part of what you see that coaches can give is the collective intelligence the young players today do not understand that they they've been siloed so much into individual development. yeah They have eight, nine, 10 people on their own team.
00:22:29
Speaker
I've got this skills coach,
Podcast Conclusion and Call to Action
00:22:30
Speaker
I've got this nutritionist, I've got this agent, I've got this, this, this. Like, it's just like, and what are they all doing? They're all talking to you about what you need. It's completely flipped where if like if I have eight or nine people working on what I need, but then when I go to the team, there's only a couple of people that are really telling me what the team, it's a law of averages. It's simple. Well, if I'm consistently hearing from all these different voices what I need to do that are not getting me to consider, but what does the team need?
00:22:55
Speaker
That's where the issue comes in. And that's what the coaches can do is I'm giving you a collective thinking structure that we're going to follow together, that we all know, now we're all aware that this is collectively what we're thinking about in principle.
00:23:06
Speaker
But you guys can now go play with it in the playground. Now you go tinker with it, Legos. like This is the structure, but now you guys build around it. But do you guys build around it. You can create all you want, but the structure is in place collectively on how we're going to think. But then individually, go do your thing. And that's where the communication, all that stuff can happen.
00:23:24
Speaker
interviewed professional lacrosse player Jack Hanna, Team USA. Incredible highlight reel. He also runs Lacrosse Den in Denver, so he's teaching a lot of kids that also play club. His observation is they just know how to run specific plays, but they don't know how to play. Correct. backyard ball. Correct.
00:23:43
Speaker
So then correct the the term he uses is joy sticking. So a coach on the sideline, hey, you cut, you pick, you do this. And his fear, because i mean he loves the game, is that this style of youth bringing up is going affect the future of the game, the pro level, and what he loves.
00:23:59
Speaker
You've been in every aspect of the game. You've been on the ice at the highest level. What have you seen? Is the future of hockey bright or is the club, the individual focus that you just mentioned, going affect it at the highest level? Yeah, i' I'm always pessimist.
00:24:14
Speaker
I have to be in that way. You know, like in terms of like the the optimism is always there in terms of I always believe in the people and the kids and the innocence of it.
00:24:26
Speaker
Where the pessimism comes in is the system, right? and I think we're all dealing with it across the board is what is the system in place? And that's getting more challenging. like people say, oh, work with coaches that, ah well, it's no different than working with with parents, right? Like, okay, wanna go there and work with coaches, but I've seen like, but do you wanna do the work?
00:24:43
Speaker
Most people it's like, do you wanna really dive into and understand like, all right, we have to change our perspective on how we're training these kids and what their what their lenses are looking at. And that has to come from us. So it's challenging in that way where if leadership, parents, all that stuff, right aren't influencing this way of thinking,
00:25:03
Speaker
How do we get there? So I think eventually we'll get there. I do believe that the optimism is there, but we are going to go through some pain in terms of that collective aspect because what's changing now is decision making, right? So like you look up distributed cognition, collective type of thinking, right? okay And this is something that is really challenging for people is there's only so much thinking you can do, right? We know that from thoughts, memory, there's only so many thoughts, all that stuff. The science that we all know that.
00:25:30
Speaker
Unconsciously, you've developed how you've developed. And now when you go into a day, you're going to only have a certain amount of thinking that you're going to do. so there's only so much space. It's like muscles, right? There's only so many push-ups you can do before you get tired. There's only so many thoughts you're going to have before you get tired.
00:25:43
Speaker
Same idea. So with the players, if all they're thinking about, and there's data to prove this in terms of, ah I'll talk about that in a second, of like where if the players are sitting there and they're thinking about it from the context always of how do I create my individual play, my individual play, And that's it. Then all they're thinking about is, how do I beat you?
00:26:02
Speaker
And that's all they're seeing is, in my mind, when I train, everything that I'm doing, all that when I study my film, everything like that, I'm thinking about, how did I beat you? With no context of, well, wait a second, I have other people participating with me. We have a system in place. We have other tendencies all around me.
00:26:20
Speaker
they're not thinking about that. Like it's not in the schema, right? Of like, as I'm building up the collective aspect. So it's proven cognitive distribution of like, as a concept of like, if we're all thinking collectively of how are we gonna go through the sequence, you're instantly faster collectively.
00:26:34
Speaker
So that's the constraint that we're dealing with. That's what we're watching unfold is they're becoming unbelievably skilled and they're able to do all this stuff. But the reality is the old way of the game of wait a second, as a team, how are we doing this off of each other? How are we playing off of the system?
00:26:48
Speaker
that's getting lost in translation because cognitively speaking, we're spending so much time on trying to become a wizard and becoming amazing at my individual play. But we're not thinking about the sequence of events that happens. And I had a very interesting conversation last year with an analytics guy and I had asked in a meeting and I had said, hey, um you know talk to me about, you know um I'm seeing all this individuality on the players, right? That's breaking down. We all know that at any sport, right? You've got these amazing analytics.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I look at it, I'm like, so I like it, but it's, so this is all individual based. are we able to actually get the collective sequence of events? Like, do we know like the chemistry who's playing with who? And then the plays that were made, the sequence of order that happened, like, is there any data on that? oh Oh, no, no, no. That's impossible. Like that's way too much work.
00:27:33
Speaker
Right. I can watch the game and tell you. Wait, that's way too much work. And I'm thinking to myself, like, ah, that's okay. So I love how it gives us the individual nature of what somebody might give. But then right away, my mind goes to first principle thinking. I'm like,
00:27:47
Speaker
All right, but it's a team game. It's a team game. no You can say whatever you want about individuality and we have to do it. it it The game, that you know, like we're talking about the infinite game or game theory or anything like that, it's a game.
00:27:59
Speaker
So if it's the if it's a team game, then there's a sequence of we are participating together. So I don't care how much individuality you're doing, we are automatically slower if we're not building principles around how to think collectively.
00:28:13
Speaker
had a collective intelligence. How are we doing this all together? And if we're not talking about that, then we are instantly slower. Because if I'm in my silo and I'm just thinking about how I can play, does it look pretty? Does it look amazing? Of course, wow, that's amazing. But what we're giving up is the team.
00:28:29
Speaker
What we've given up, the spiritual aspect of the very essence of what the game is. It's about us. And that gets lost in translation when... A player, super passionate. They love to play the game.
00:28:41
Speaker
But the issue is they haven't been taught coming up, oh, there's a whole other realm of team, family, all that stuff. Where if we actually think about it from that context, wow, we're opening up a whole other dimension of speed that most haven't even explored yet.
00:28:57
Speaker
So that's that's where I see is the constraints happening where, like i said, it's, you know, I'm optimist in terms of, I think this stuff is gonna start to come out as time goes on. I know even from my language, a lot of it is shifting now towards the collective. Like we have to start talking, the language that needs to be built around it, the conversation needs built around it, of like, there's a collective sequence of what this does.
00:29:18
Speaker
And I think with the technology and AI and you know all the analytics, you know I think we have to be careful of how much we're relying on this other stuff to tell us what to do as opposed to, well there's a human nature like,
00:29:31
Speaker
know, I tell you all the time, I'm like, give me anyone on the team. and And I like to do this one drill with a ball where I'm like, okay, you guys here, toss it to five, you know, one ball to five of them. All right, guys, when the whistle blows, boom, you guys are gonna make a play.
00:29:45
Speaker
You guys can't talk. This group, hey, create a play. I want you guys to come up with like six, seven movements. There it is. Right? Movements, pass it around and make a sequence happen quick, but talk about it first.
00:30:00
Speaker
Boom. Now, all right guys, ready? And go. cho vito This group is, they're moving, but you can see there's a constraint. You can see it's, it may be like, they're just kind of like doing something really crazy simple. That's like that, that's not practical.
00:30:14
Speaker
But this other unit just did something that was beautiful. Why? Because they talked. yeah Because they understood each other like, ah, that's what we're gonna come up with. And that, that is more and more, that's the one of the scarier parts that I find, less and less communication with each other. That's so that's a lot of the lessons and presentations I do. I call it social emotional leadership.
00:30:34
Speaker
So anchor it in a lot of elementary based education, social emotional learning, but then just bring it to sports lens. and then and of challenging conversations, conflict, self-awareness, social awareness.
00:30:47
Speaker
also So then that that's one thing I want to ask is what are current feedback loops like? I understand coach to players there because they're professionals. They're yeah they're getting that their whole life. yeahp They're getting told what to do. Bingo.
00:31:01
Speaker
What about player to player feedback loops? Huge constraints. Huge constraints. Because gave in talking to a player the other day. i like, well, I don't want to go you know struggling with defensive zone coverage. I'm like, man, I feel like I'm doing my job, but they're not doing theirs. So I'm like, right, well, why didn't you bring that up to them? like, well, I don't want to. it's Because they're the better players on the team.
00:31:24
Speaker
So he's feeling that like, well, I don't want to say anything to them. The tale is old as time. The tale is old as time. So what we talked about, we had a good discussion about, well, there's always a different way to present information and frame it differently. So instead of the context that you were just thinking of when I said it, of like, what what did your mind go to?
00:31:42
Speaker
Oh, I got to go tell them that. No, no, no Why don't you ask them? but Hey, what do you guys think in this play? Tone. Like we always use the one framework we use is three Ts, right? Tone, target, and timing. So tone is very important.
00:31:53
Speaker
So just say it like the way you normally do, like you and you guys are shooting the breeze, right? At at a dinner or whatever it is, and you're just hanging out. So tone is very important, but then target is then ask, ask a question, be curious, have a curiosity. Like you're still saying the same thing. Hey, what do you think on this play when we came back here? What you think about here on what is? You know, what me to do here?
00:32:13
Speaker
So now you put it back on yourself, right? And you lay it out. So you're communicating it without, hey, you need to do this. It's more about, hey, I'm curious about what are you thinking here? cause I'm trying to think this and now you're creating a collaboration.
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And then the timing. Right. It's like, you know, do you do it during practice? Do do it away like at a meal or whatever it is? But the idea behind that feedback is like you have to like it's teaching the players understand how to communicate differently with one another so they don't feel like I'm coming at you.
00:32:39
Speaker
Right. Because they have a lot of that internal like used to the adults or whatever it is about that energy of like, I'm coming. So you're triggering. If you do the coming after you, then you sound like an adult. You sound like a leader. You know, all that stuff. Fight, flight, freeze. That's it. Right. The nervous system, boom, goes into it. Why you coming at me like that? And and yet it's peer to peer. Like, what why are you saying that to me? As opposed to, hey, what do you think about this? Play it out.
00:33:01
Speaker
And you're making it more inquisitive, more curious. And that... Disarms the alarm boom and now we can have a conversation so it's all about the presentation aspect But it's yeah It's a major constraint that you're finding now that they can't even have just a normal dialogue where in our day the veterans Could just come you know hey peer-to-peer that and that's still there of like but what's different now is the veterans They're not as intentional about back and and like you have to tell them so when you tell them Yeah, okay, you're right, you're right, right. So then they'll go and pass on wisdom and all that stuff. But they're not going and just, they're not proactively saying it until they're given permission or they're told by an adult, say, hey, you should go talk to the guys more than, oh, you really think so?
00:33:43
Speaker
That's been weird. Like where ours was like, you know the veterans were passed down to the young and coming up and we're going teach you. It's the spirit of the game. That's the spirit of the game. that's so That's the natural order that came from the chaos was like, that's the way tradition, that's the way it works.
00:33:57
Speaker
um And that's gone lost right with all the more information more information data data data We're gonna fill your head with so much information now you have all the information it's like Yeah, but the wisdom comes from the humans playing like okay We can have all the information in the world like I can yeah I call it the diner menu effect you can walk into the diner and be like oh my god There's all these things that are amazing But you know you love the Euro, right? Oh, I love the Euro here.
00:34:20
Speaker
You love the Euro here. That's it. Get the Euro then. If you know what you love here, then why are you grabbing anything else that if you know you love that, have that. Same idea. If you know with the team you love doing this, do that.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yes, I know there's tons of plays you can make. There's tons things you can do. But fundamentally, go to that. And I think that's where the challenge comes in with some of these players is like, How much are we communicating with each other from the feedback loop of we're having that dialogue from all the different parts, veterans, peer to peer, one same unit line, whatever it is.
00:34:51
Speaker
And we're able to figure out these ways of how are we having these meaningful discussions consistently, right, together. And not just hearing from the coaches, but How are we approaching what we're doing? And frankly, you know, this is what I love about the mental performance space is you have to practice that.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah. Just like, you know, I tell coaches all the time, just like you give space for working on different systems, different concepts, you give space for it. It's the same thing with this. Give it space. Where's the five to ten minutes to work on?
00:35:19
Speaker
All right, guys, you're going to communicate with one another. You're gonna talk about how you're going make your plays. Just talk about it. That's it. Let me give you space. Let me let me have you let practice it. Mm hmm. Yeah, I often say leadership takes reps, but I like the the concept of space. Because I know it takes time.
00:35:36
Speaker
A lot of the coaches I work with, they're younger, and they they they get impatient. So then they step into leadership should be this way. You should have said this. It's like, all right, well, I can have that feedback with them afterwards, but I want to listen to how they're where do they stumble in their huddle? Where do they stumble in that leadership moment?
00:35:55
Speaker
And then I come back with guidance for them. That's it. I like this three T's tone target timing when I coach defense. So when we give up a goal,
00:36:06
Speaker
Defense got to huddle. Six guys got to huddle real quick. What happened before you come off the field? And then you tell me what happened in the huddle. I see what I see. You tell me what the team saw. And we try to bridge that gap of experience so we can all get on the same page.
00:36:20
Speaker
I tell them what I want that conversation to be like because it's got to be quick. Keep the game flowing. So alignment assignment technique. Was it alignment problem? Were we in the right place, wrong place? What happened? What was your role?
00:36:33
Speaker
How can have corrected that? And then technique. Exactly. how How is our technique? I'm coaching technique. Or did the guy just out athlete you? Yes. And that happens. Yes. So then i like this because more of a challenge is that social emotional tone target.
00:36:50
Speaker
Similar, I would reference the alignment assignment technique as the target and then timing. i I need it quick. Yes. we We can't make the same mistake multiple times. Exactly. Yep. Do I need to say it now or do I need to wait to say it to you? Like, i you know what, let me talk to you at next practice, but noted. We're in the heat of the battle, but I know your personality. If I say it to you now, you're not going hear it. That's that's the other thing. So then now as the kid, if what I found and then putting a a score to it, so either 1 to 10 1 to 100,
00:37:22
Speaker
If I'm at 80 to 100, you're not talking to me or else it's going be destructive. Don't ask me about playing time right now. But then also, if they're 80 to 100, we need movement, we need motion, we need to get into their body. So it's either breathe or walk the sideline for a practice. Hey, you run to the other end zone, and I'll meet you there. Bingo. So then we get time to cool down. Bingo. So what would be your guidance from player to player when tempers are flaring? Yeah. If that happens. Yeah, exactly. And that's the part where we spend so much time studying the game and thinking about the game. And we spend so little time about thinking about each other.
00:37:58
Speaker
And that's the other side of the practice of the collective aspect of this is we study so much of like system analytics, you know, okay, how do I mentally do it?
00:38:09
Speaker
And we don't go, wait, but these are the pieces that I'm playing with. That's a Porsche. That's an SUV. That's a bear. That's a giraffe. Like, we don't We don't take a look at and go, wait, what are the actual pieces? right the The system is never the problem.
00:38:21
Speaker
The game is never the problem. you I hate the game. I hate hockey. No, no, you don't hate the game. You hate the people that you participated with. That's the core truth that it comes across that. You love the game. You love the game itself, but it's the people that you're participating with.
00:38:35
Speaker
And I think that's the biggest challenge right in this process is that how often are you aligning and understanding your teammates, their tendencies? ah Hey, and and this is why I love the idea of emerging properties and why like the the chaos theory stuff of like where it's like,
00:38:53
Speaker
all right, I've got to go experience stuff with you. We've got to go through it together. But then I'm experiencing it, but then i I observe and I go, oh, they didn't like how I said that. Oh, they don't like to be talked to you like that.
00:39:05
Speaker
Oh, they really like when you say this. Okay, cool. We don't do nearly enough job of practicing that and going, like oh, you really loved when we brought that up. Cool. All right, let's talk more about that and build around that. Oh, you really hated when I said that. Okay, I got stop. I can't say that. I got to change how I say that to you, tone, words, whatever it is.
00:39:21
Speaker
And we we practice that, we don't, we don't practice it, period. And so that's where the constraint comes in, is that because I don't really understand the piece I'm playing with, like I've had pro players, it's crazy of like, you know, they'll they'll get so upset about one player.
00:39:36
Speaker
It's like, all right, Vinny, I know, like he keeps going in, he keeps making this play and it's, you know I've talked to him so many times about what I'm doing, and what we need to do. I go, whoa, whoa, hold on Did you consider this? Allow him to do what he's doing and you support what he's doing.
00:39:51
Speaker
Maybe you're forcing so much of like, you want what you need to do. What I have to understand is like, some players, they're just gonna do their thing. They're not open to understanding and thinking on that level, that's okay. But like you said, when he goes in the corner, he does a really good job with that, and you like that. Yes.
00:40:06
Speaker
Okay, then follow him to the corner, support him out of there, and change your approach. Don't make it so you have to stay at the top, and you want to get you want him to give you the puck back. Why don't you go in the corner, be there, support him, and then you can make a play from there as opposed to, I want him to do this, come up the wall and give it to me. Why don't you just support him where he is and then whatever he does, build off of that?
00:40:27
Speaker
never thought of it that way. And it's like this whole other area of development that that's an emerging property of, well, if I start to think about what you're doing and I align with what you're potentially doing, how you're thinking,
00:40:41
Speaker
then how does that change the game? tell all the time, like, if if I had a magic wand, and we could just literally like go, okay, all right, we're gonna make it so the number one rule is gonna be, how can I help you? How can I support?
00:40:51
Speaker
How can I help? If everyone on the team was thinking that way, that team would be faster than any other team alive. yeah Because all I'm thinking about now is how do I help you and how do we keep the sequence going based off of I'm just supporting you? How do I do that?
00:41:05
Speaker
That's the very nature of what team game is. So imagine if every player's mindset was how can I help you? You'd watch again be like, oh my god, it's like super fast. Yeah. Because no one's thinking anymore about their ego about i I need to do this. I need my points. I need to do this.
00:41:19
Speaker
And the irony is how much more would be created off of that? Because it's like, how do I spoil it? The cognitive burden would be so much less, right? The creativity would be so much more. The success would be even greater. The wins, all this stuff. The irony behind it is not lost on like team aspect of like, imagine if we just fundamentally like, how can I help you? But genuinely as a principal was like, no, no, I'm committed to that. Like the leader. yeah And then began, i like we were talking about like, as a leader, here's why I'm doing it. I'm responsible for that. Imagine if players thought, yeah, I'm responsible. How can I help you?
00:41:49
Speaker
that That's what this is all about is how can I help you? How can I support you? And if we're just thinking about that all the time, thinking everything's moving so much faster because now my lens is completely committed to, I'm just thinking about how I can support you. So imagine you have everybody else doing the same thing.
00:42:04
Speaker
It's bananas of what you would see. two Two passes, everyone's thinking two passes ahead. That's it. Where's the open man? Where's the opportunity? That's it. you're You're still playing the game. Right. But you're playing it off of how can I support you as opposed to, well, I'm going to do this.
00:42:18
Speaker
I'm going to beat him like this. Yeah. Time out. Tex here at Train Heroic headquarters meeting with the team to talk about the coaching experience that I'm able to provide for my athletes. So if you're a coach and want to put your program out there on an app that athletes actually enjoy using, Train Heroics for you. I've been using it since 2014. delivering literally over tens of thousands of workouts to athletes.
00:42:43
Speaker
And Train Heroic allows me to provide the unique coaching experience that I want to. Uploading video, providing coaching feedback, directions, and building a community. That's why I love Train Heroic. And if you want to take your athletes where they can't take themselves, that they want to go, head to trainheroic.com slash captains and check out how you can deliver programming to them.
00:43:05
Speaker
And now, back to the show. Ready, ready, and written.
00:43:10
Speaker
couple questions written down here. So how important has you seen gamification take over in communication and coaching? So less so statistics, but more connection to what the dudes are doing off the ice. Yeah, super important.
00:43:24
Speaker
Super important. It's one of those things that I realized too. It's funny of like, you one of the things I wanted to get into, it was kind of it was really interesting getting the one auto presentation and being like, whoa, because literally last week I've been talking about of like businesses.
00:43:38
Speaker
How do we help companies of being able to gamify the environment? Because companies always say, we we want to have former athletes. I'm like, well, you're taking a wild animal and you're trying to put them into a corporate environment. It's never going to work. like how are you going to make it playful?
00:43:51
Speaker
And so when you look at now, the players coming up now, There's no doubt about it. The gamification, they're all on video games, they're playing. It's a social thing. It's the it's another version of the new playground.
00:44:02
Speaker
Like I hear my son, when he's playing and he's on there, him and his buddies, he's got eight of them. They're like literally eight strong screaming. They're having a blast as if it sounds like they're at the playground. yeah But you can hear he's he's hanging out with his buddies.
00:44:14
Speaker
So it's not what people think of like, oh, they're just playing video games. It's like, no, there's a social aspect connection that's going into it. And there's ah there's been a, you know, that's shown a lot too, right? Of like, there's a lot of good benefit in terms of games of where you die in the game and then you just jump back in. Right.
00:44:28
Speaker
Right. And they just know like, okay, cool. Like, try again, try again. So I think the combination of gamifying things, making it competitive is there's a natural tendency of they love to play games. The new generation coming up. So I think gamification is going to become even more prevalent in terms of the connectivity, how we're playing it, all that stuff, because it's going to make competition fun.
00:44:49
Speaker
But depending on, again, the leadership and how you're managing the system and the environment, it's going to make it where you can make things highly competitive without trying so much.
00:45:00
Speaker
I mean by that is i one fun story. that was a U18 team that I had years ago. We were like know top five team, all that stuff, the nation, all the fun stuff. So it's like a bunch of high level, you know, Division One committed, all that stuff.
00:45:12
Speaker
And the coach i was dealing with was former NHL player, and we were dealing with it, and we were struggling with to get the players to work harder. The effort wasn't there. They just weren't going. And it was like nonstop screaming, like, come on, we gotta go, blowing the whistle, you know, the usual antics and all that stuff. And I was younger back then, so I was like, you know, um I'm gonna will you into working harder.
00:45:29
Speaker
And so, you know, i come across the competitive cauldron, right? Anson Dorenson's type of work of like, okay, let's gamify everything. Let's turn it all into a game and and keep points. And so the next practice, boom, I turned everything into a game. One-on-ones, two-on-ones, three-on-twos. I turned everything into a game. And we just sat back.
00:45:47
Speaker
Hey, come back. Tell me when you got your points, da-da-da. And then afterwards, boom, we put it up as a leaderboard so they could look at it. So the first thing that happened was, boom, it goes up on the leaderboard and everyone's looking at it as if they're at a tournament like the parents all look huddled around like, wow, I can't believe I was downloaded up.
00:46:06
Speaker
The next two, three, four practices killing each other. yeah The work ethic. We're not yelling at all, done. And he's like, I cannot believe that worked. He's like, I cannot believe how much harder they're working.
00:46:17
Speaker
yeah There was because you made it, you get created the conditions, right? Like any leader create the conditions so you don't have to make it as hard on yourself. But naturally by gamifying it, it instantly created effort.
00:46:31
Speaker
Love it. Winding down because we do got to get back to the conference here. Favorite hockey movie of all time. who ah Of all time, man, that's a tough one.
00:46:46
Speaker
It's like there's so many like, take your pick of like, you know, I mean, Mystery Alaska is like a bad, like it's just like cool, like being in the mountains, right? Versus Slapshot was just like iconic in that way. And then Youngblood was like junior hockey.
00:47:04
Speaker
That's a tough one, man, because they all have their own like little ones, like a pro environment of like the minor leagues. are Like, oh, that's total like craziness. Another one is just junior hockey of like tea with Miss McGill. All kinds crazy stuff. of like, if I had to say right now of where I'm at, of like, yeah. And and i'm obviously Miracle, it's like, I mean, that's just a given. Like, it's like, you that one's like um and was like Metallica. Like, everyone loves that. Like, yeah how do you not love that movie, right? But I'd say Slap Shot's pretty freaking funny. If if we're going for laughs and stuff like that, Slap Shot's pretty unreal. When are you going to introduce your son to Slap Shot? the appropriate... Not anytime soon, but... Probably about two more years when he's about like 11 10 11 I get there don't start to be fun then he needs to mature a little bit more like before it's like Some of the stuff i don't want to run around and saying certain things just yet Yeah, exactly version and then exactly yeah, then greatest fictional coach of all time any any sport any movie anytime
00:48:09
Speaker
oh or it ah
00:48:14
Speaker
Coach boom, which boom I think so with what he dealt with. Like i love that he took on something so hard at the time. Yeah. And was able to take on the social pressure and still had conviction and trust in his process.
00:48:29
Speaker
That's incredibly hard to do. T.C. Williams, that's right over here. Yeah. That's like amazing to to like have accomplished that and did that is like wild at the time. Yeah. Like it's just like to have done that and bring together. That's that's beyond just coaching. That's you're changing the world, which is.
00:48:46
Speaker
Pretty bad, actually. Yeah, great message. I did ask Dr. David Yeager this question. And he says, Ted Lasso season three is the most mentor mindset, according to his research, coach of all time.
00:49:01
Speaker
And then I threw out Chubbs Peterson at him. He's like, um no. I was OK. I love Chubbs. Yeah. Ted Lasso's, I mean, that's just. He says season one.
00:49:17
Speaker
All that lovey-dovey floppy is that not side. C3 is great representation. Cool. We've got to get back to it, dude. I appreciate you. Thanks for your time. If people want to continue to follow and learn from you, where should they go? Easiest way is Instagram, at Coach Schoening Falls.
00:49:33
Speaker
Sweet. All right. Thank for tuning in. Sweet, dude. That was short sweet. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Captains & Coaches Podcast. If you like what you heard here today, be sure to like, subscribe, rate, and review.
00:49:49
Speaker
If you want to learn more from Vinny, be sure to follow along to the Evolving Athletes Podcast. He's got amazing interviews. He's got incredible interviews. incredible motivational interviewer. He's done a lot of podcasts with a lot of my friends and guests that I've had on this show. So check him out. i will be I've already interviewed with him. I don't know what's coming out, but I'll be on there as well. So check that out.
00:50:12
Speaker
If you want to continue to really deep dive research and application on a lot of the tools that we introduced today. i encourage you to check out my new course, Why They're Not Listening, Coaching the Modern Athlete.
00:50:25
Speaker
For that, head to listen.captainsandcoaches.com. And last but not least, we got our merch in. So check this out. Make sure you link good side there.
00:50:36
Speaker
Check that out, shop.captainsandcoaches.com to help us raise the game.
00:50:44
Speaker
All right. And see you.