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Episode 168: Rachel Dougherty — Nonfiction for Kids, Day Jobs, and Finding Confidence
133 Plays5 years ago
"My writing life is being surrounded by 15 half-empty coffee cups which I keep dipping my paint brush into accidentally," says Rachel Dougherty.
Rachel Dougherty is a Philadelphia-based illustrator, children's author, and lifelong knowledge-hunter. She works in acrylic paint, ink, and pencil smudges, using humor and color to inspire curious young minds. Rachel is passionate about US history, scruffy little dogs, and board games.
This episode is brought to you by Goucher College's MFA in Nonfiction, Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Nonfiction, River Teeth and my kick-ass editing services.
Keep the conversation going on Twitter @CNFPod and Instagram @cnfpod. Also Facebook.
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Transcript
Introduction to CNF Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Right? My writing life is being surrounded by 15 half empty coffee cups which I keep dipping my paintbrush into accidentally.
00:00:13
Speaker
Alright, I'm Brendan O'Mara and this is CNF Creative Nonfiction Podcast where I talk to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories, chart their journeys, and unpack their habits so you can get a little bit better at your own work.
Guest Introduction and Sponsorships
00:00:28
Speaker
Today's guest is Rachel Daugherty, but first a word from our sponsors. Creative Nonfiction Podcast, greatest podcast in the world.
00:00:37
Speaker
is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts and Nonfiction. Goucher MFA is a two year low residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere while on campus residencies allow you to hone your craft with accomplished mentors
00:00:52
Speaker
who have Pulitzer Prizes and best-selling books to their names. The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni, which has published 140 books and counting. You'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey. Visit goucher.edu slash non-fiction to start your journey now. Take your writing to the next level. Go from hopeful to published in Goucher's MFA in non-fiction.
00:01:20
Speaker
CNF is also brought to you by Bay Path University. Discover your story. Bay Path University's fully online MFA in creative non-fiction writing has this to say...
00:01:33
Speaker
From a recent graduate, Christine Brooks recalls her experience with Bay Pass MFA faculty as being filled with positive reinforcement and a commitment. They have a true passion and love for their work. It shines through with every comment, every edit, and every reading assignment. The instructors are available to answer questions, big and small, and it is obvious that their years of experience as writers and teachers have made a faculty that I doubt can be beat anywhere.
00:02:03
Speaker
Don't just take her word for it. Apply now at baypat.edu slash MFA. Classes begin January 21st.
Humor and Personal Insights
00:02:12
Speaker
So, playing a little round with a little style these days. But if it ain't broke, don't riff it.
00:02:31
Speaker
I'm telling you, I'm gonna start using the word riff like smurfs, use the word smurf. Anyway...
Meet Rachel Daugherty: Passion and Inspiration
00:02:37
Speaker
Like I said, Rachel Daugherty is here. She is an author and illustrator of children's narrative non-fiction books. How cool is that? She's the author and illustrator of The Secret Engineer, How Emily Roebling Built the Brooklyn Bridge, among other books. She works in acrylic paint, ink, and pencil smudges, using humor and color to inspire curious young minds. Rachel is passionate about US history,
00:03:00
Speaker
scruffy little dogs, and board games. Oh hey, by the way, have you subscribed to the podcast, seeing after the greatest podcast in the world? Be sure to do that, that way you get this pump right into your feed. We can subvert the algorithm man, rage against the algorithm.
00:03:18
Speaker
It's like Google reader before they realized, hey, wait a minute. Google reader means people aren't Googling shit. So subscribe wherever you get your pods. I hope I've made something worth sharing. If you think so, link up the show across your platforms and keep the conversation going on Twitter and Instagram at CNF pod. That's where we can have our quote unquote reading group, if you will. Okay.
00:03:45
Speaker
i also have a monthly newsletter if you head over to brendan omero dot com hey hey once a month no spam can't beat it that's where you also get the show notes the award-winning show notes i gave myself the award hanging up in the office one last shout out riverteeth for the promotional support they forgot to post last week's episode on their facebook page so i hope that's an isolated oversight
00:04:09
Speaker
In any case, they are a journal of non-fiction narrative, so go and get it. Submit your work, submit to the book prize, give them money, get their quarterly thing. In any case, Rachel gave a great flash session at Hippocamp this year about children's narrative non-fiction books, and that's a subject I'm really interested in, and I was really hooked by her presentation. I just thought she was really charming and smart and funny, and I really loved her work.
Balancing Careers and Creative Pursuits
00:04:35
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She crushed it, crushed it.
00:04:38
Speaker
so I had to have her on the show to talk about what it is she does and what's great too is you'll find out in the show she's got a full-time day job and she's making a great go of it as an artist she manages to thread it around the thing that keeps the lights on so I think a lot of you are gonna dig this conversation I had with Rachel Daugherty you ready let's do this ooh
00:05:10
Speaker
I'm prone to and maybe you do this as well, but I tend to drag my feet on drafts Like I'll finish them and then instead of just sending them right away. I like Hmm make more work for myself by like I I'm really used to critiquing You know my work and like I step away from it and say well, this isn't good enough to show and instead of just
00:05:38
Speaker
knowing that it's good and sending it I feel like I pick over it and then I mean in the case that I today or this week I was asked to do like a set of very rough thumbnails and I was like alright and I did those and then I was like this isn't gonna this isn't gonna show enough information so that I put the art notes on top of the thumbnails and then I was like still not good enough so then I started doing like a digital
00:06:01
Speaker
you know, digital color, like color mock up to give an idea of what the color will look like. And then my agent emailed me and was like, it's been so long. Why have you not sent this draft? It's like, oh, that's, I'm making more work for myself is why she was like, just send it. Nice. Now, have you always been a bit of a perfectionist?
00:06:21
Speaker
I guess. I don't really think of myself as a perfectionist, but maybe that's just like, uh, I'm just being kind. But, um, yeah, I think the children's book market is so tough. And, you know, every time
00:06:40
Speaker
There's so many people, every time I go to a conference, there's so many people that I meet who say, like, I just want to write a children's book. And there's so many books and there's so many authors and illustrators who are so talented that I feel like there's no room to be less than your best when it comes to picture books.
00:06:57
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I feel like sometimes I don't, I don't tend to be a perfectionist about like my personal work, like whatever I'm trying to just put on social media or like paint on a Saturday. Like if I get a splotch of paint, I'm not going to throw it away. But like something I'm trying to send to my editor, like I don't want to waste her time with something that's not my best.
00:07:15
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Do you think people in children's books, illustration books, and certainly the wonderful work you're doing, doing narrative nonfiction, children's illustration books, that people discount the amount of work that goes into it because it's more easily digestible for a younger brain?
00:07:37
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I guess I don't usually compare myself to different genres, but if you look at my book about the Brooklyn Bridge and sit it right next to David McCullough's book about the Brooklyn Bridge, I think it would be, if you ask any passers-by on the street whose book took more work, it would be incontrovertible that David McCullough did more work. It's just a very different way of working.
00:08:06
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I do think that people who write, you know, nonfiction books for adults don't think about if you ask them like, okay, could you tell this story to a seven year old? I don't think a lot of them
00:08:21
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would think it's hard until they tried to do it because it's just words that you would use when you're talking to other adults or phrases or even contexts that kids don't have. You can't say, well, consider this bridge was built before electricity.
00:08:39
Speaker
or like before the light bulb was invented or before there was antibiotics like you could say all those things to an adult and they would have an impact but if you said those things to kids like they would kind of be like i don't know every it's a bill it's a hundred and years ago 150 years ago that doesn't even mean anything when you're seven
00:08:58
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When I was seven, I had a next-door neighbor who was 24. Well, the kids were 24, and I remember asking the neighbor, how old are your kids? Why do I never see them? And they said, oh, well, they're away. One of them is at college, and one of them is just an adult. They're 24. And I was like, 24, might as well be 80. It didn't make any sense to me. I was like, you don't have kids.
00:09:20
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And she was like, I have kids. And I was like, no, you don't have kids. So I remember vividly that not computing. And I think that kind of thing people don't consider when you're writing for kids.
00:09:32
Speaker
And I guess maybe the point I'm making is because it looks kind of easily digestible and simple on it or very approachable that maybe everyone who thinks – to your point of like people not bringing their all to this, they think that maybe it's something they can just kind of – it's not – it's easier to do than something that's quote unquote more serious. So they're not like throwing their all at it and thus –
00:09:59
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you know, they're probably getting disappointed and jaded. But whereas you know that every bit is, there's a ton of work goes into this to distill it and make it digestible and make it enjoyable for any reader, but especially a young reader. Sure. I also think what's tough about picture books particularly, like I don't think you have this struggle nearly as much if you write nonfiction for like the middle grade.
00:10:22
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or even the YA level, but picture books are an interesting media because
00:10:32
Speaker
half of the storytelling is done in art so like you if your pictures say exactly what the text says in a picture book you've kind of failed um because half of the story like half of the storytelling should be done with the intersection of the art and the text so i think a lot of writers get into picture books because they think it's going to be simple and then when they go
00:10:58
Speaker
To write things like, I feel like I see this all the time is that just they have way too many words. They say like, oh, I wrote a 3000 word picture book and somebody says, no, you didn't. You wrote a middle grade that you want that should be longer or a picture book with way too many words. Like it's a very interesting medium. So I think that's something that a lot of writers don't consider when they think about getting into picture books.
00:11:25
Speaker
And yeah, I certainly want to unpack that a bit more just as a genre and how you got into it and how you navigated. But as we, you know, we'll get to that, of course, and I'd love to maybe back up a little bit and maybe just ask you, you know, where you grew up, where you came from and kind of what kind of kid were you, you know, growing up wherever you grew up.
Art School Journey and Creative Drive
00:11:49
Speaker
Sure. I'm from right outside of Philadelphia. I want to say one of the closer ring suburbs, but a suburb nonetheless. I was a really curious kid and I think that when you meet writers and illustrators of picture books, they tend to create work for the kid that they were. I was one of those kids who wanted to know how everything worked.
00:12:15
Speaker
I would wander around being like, you know, why can't penguins fly? And why is the U.S. mint here? And what do they make there? And how do bridges stay up? And how are volcanoes working? Why aren't there volcanoes here? These kinds of questions. And I was lucky enough to have parents who
00:12:36
Speaker
took the time to answer some of those questions, or at least point me in the direction of how to answer them in a time before Google, which was probably exasperating for them. But I think- That sounds like the great title of a children's book in the time before Google. And before Google. I feel like now it must be so easy. You just walk around with a computer in your pocket, and if your kid is playing the endless stream of Y games, you can just Google it every time.
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, I feel like let's find out was usually the response. So that was a lot of time spent in libraries as a kid. And what did your parents do?
00:13:15
Speaker
My mom was and still is in marketing, and my dad, he was one of those guys who had many, many careers. He was, I think, a history teacher at heart. He taught American history as his first job out of college, and then he went on to work in radio, and then he went back to teaching, but he taught broadcast marketing. But I think he always thought of himself as a teacher, so that's probably
00:13:44
Speaker
I think it had a big effect on me. And so what role did your parents play in sort of forging the kind of person and maybe giving you that kind of permission to chase your own curiosity and taste as a kid? I will say my parents allowed me to be hugely independent as a kid in a way that I don't think a lot of kids are maybe today. And I think maybe parents would get in trouble with their neighbors or possibly even the law
00:14:14
Speaker
uh for like letting now for letting their kids sort of run wild the way that i did my sister much less so she i feel like as a kid was more close to home and less absent but i was very much like get on my bicycle and ride away for hours and that's probably the thing i was punished for most was disappearing um but i did get away with it for a lot of
00:14:39
Speaker
instances and I spent a lot of time sort of exploring whether it was going to the like going to the library by myself as a child which I don't know that you're allowed to do now or like just you know climbing trees or running around in the forest or like
00:14:55
Speaker
being wherever and I even like thinking about it now like if I had a kid and they were just AWOL for hours I would be so worried so I totally understand why that's like not a thing anymore but I do think it breeds a sense of imagination in kids that um
00:15:14
Speaker
I wonder how parents today are making up for that lack of freedom. So how did you start to channel your imagination as a kid? When did you start picking up pencils and markers and stuff and really diving into illustrating and drawing and manifesting all that imagination that you had in curiosity? Well, I think it's funny because I'm sure you can attest to this. All children draw.
00:15:44
Speaker
if you're under the age of eight, drawing is part of your life, I feel, or coloring or, you know, making up stories. Kids love to do that. And then I feel like once they get into high school, they kind of forget that that was fun. You know, whatever else happens, like it's all about soccer or it's all about the play or it's all about whatever. But I think a lot of kids, the SATs, extracurriculars, whatever. But I think kids lose art or they lose track of
00:16:14
Speaker
writing or telling stories. I don't think I was very, I wasn't very into writing in high school but I wasn't into art. I really enjoyed my high school art teacher and the people in my high school art class and it was the thing I liked most at school so then I went to art school thinking like I'm not quite sure what I want to do with this but like I know that these are my people and that's what I'm going to do so I went
00:16:42
Speaker
to art school, and pretty much the second I was there, I was like, oh, my people are the illustration majors. But I didn't think I was going to write. I definitely thought I wanted to illustrate children's books. I knew that that was probably the most interesting form of illustration to me. There are many. I mean, there's people who do comics. There's people who do advertising illustration or editorial illustration, like people who just do products or the New York Times book review, that kind of thing. But there's a sort of
00:17:11
Speaker
humor and strangeness to like the way that I like to work and the things I like to draw that I feel like fits in pretty much only with a traditional illustration sort of circle. So I was very drawn to that from an early, early age. And, but then the more I did it, you know, I had a couple of books under my belt and I was like, I'm kind of sick of waiting for what I want to draw to come to me. Like I want to draw,
00:17:42
Speaker
you know, like I had done a book about the Oregon Trail and I had done a book about the Titanic and I was like, these are really fun. And I want to keep, and then I got another project that was all about, you know, travel, like sort of traveling around Pennsylvania. And that was fun too. But I was like, I want to do more history work and I'm not getting, I'm not getting it. So I thought I would try and write a book. Um, and I did. So it took some time, but it was definitely, um,
00:18:11
Speaker
And an immersive experience, I would say probably the first 40 drafts of that project looked and sounded like not a book at all. Just a bunch of random sentences strung together. But I think, you know, I was lucky enough to join a critique group in my area that I met with every month. And it was absolutely invaluable to making, making me a writer.
00:18:36
Speaker
Where did that courage come from for you to take that leap on your own to seek the work, basically seek the work that you were craving, deeply craving? I don't know. I guess I didn't think of it as being courageous. I would say impatience. Mostly, I've never been like a very prolific writer and illustrator. I think, you know, you'll probably talk to people on your podcast who can't
00:19:06
Speaker
They can't go a day without writing or they can't, you know, the projects are just coming at them all the time. But I've just, I've never, I've never been that way. I tend to work on one project at a time and I always have a day job because I would starve to death if I
Balancing Work and Creative Passion
00:19:20
Speaker
didn't. And I, um, but I wasn't getting any work. I was at the time I was, um, I had done those three books and I was sending out a lot of postcards and mailers and
00:19:33
Speaker
You know, I was picking up little gigs here and there, but nothing that felt like quite right. I think it's because I'm not able to make the work that I want to. So I decided to just try and start it, and that's definitely been helpful to me.
00:19:53
Speaker
Hey, it's me, your CNF and buddy Brendan. Listen, we all need editing. We all need fresh eyes. You need someone who can objectively look at your work and coach it along. Whether that's developmental editing or even copy editing.
00:20:08
Speaker
Hiring a great editor is one of the best investments you can make in your book and your writing. I'm doing the same thing. So if you want to take your book to the next level, consider working with me. I'd be thrilled and honored to help. Email Brendan at BrendanOmero.com if you want to take that leap together. And now back to the greatest podcast in the world.
00:20:34
Speaker
I'm so happy you brought up that you have a day job. I of course have one as well and I think a lot of people have day job insecurity when they're trying to make creative work and they wish that they're
00:20:53
Speaker
their art or their writing was their sole provider and you know there's an inadequacy I think that some people feel and I know that because sometimes I feel that like I wish I was a better freelancer so I could support myself on that freelancing and sometimes there's day job shame and so I'm happy you brought that up and so what is your day job right now?
00:21:16
Speaker
Right now, I'm the communications specialist at a nonprofit that matches psychological researchers with schools to do school-based research, so it's all about how to do research on character development.
00:21:33
Speaker
in a seamless and fruitful way for both researchers and the schools that they do the research in. So it's central to like kids' well-being, and I get to write and edit a lot of things to that effect, and also design sometimes. But yeah, it's definitely less colorful than if I were illustrating all day long, but
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's great that if you look at your website and the work you do, just the stuff that you share on Instagram or Twitter, and then of course the beautiful books that you've put together, one would think that, oh, this is what she does. This is her gig. And so it's very inspiring, I think, for people to hear that you're doing this kind of creative work that's nourishing, but also you're able to do it and orchestrate it in a way that
00:22:24
Speaker
You know, it pays bills and I really like the people that I work with.
00:22:34
Speaker
is threaded around a day job that does, in fact, keep the lights on. So how do you do that? How do you structure your days and your weeks so that you are, of course, committed to your day job but also doing the creative work that you love to do?
00:22:52
Speaker
Um, I think it's, and like, certainly not to shame anyone who is a freelancer. Like they, I think everyone has to do what's best for them. For me, I think being a full-time freelancer would be very unhealthy because I worry a lot. And I think I would worry to the detriment of my work, um, about
00:23:14
Speaker
You know, I think it would mean taking on projects that I didn't really care about to pay bills. And I never wanted my illustration work I love very, very much. It's like definitely the thing that is most meaningful to me and reading my books to kids.
00:23:34
Speaker
all of that. It's a really special thing. But I don't want to take projects just because I need to pay my rent. So for me, it's tough sometimes because when you're on a deadline, like if I've gotten approval in the green light to go to finals on my books, I have six months to do
00:23:57
Speaker
anywhere between 30 and 60 paintings. This is quite a lot because I work traditionally. Nothing can be copied and pasted. It's a physical painting on a piece of paper.
00:24:08
Speaker
It can mean working a regular eight-hour day and then coming home and painting another eight hours and sleeping not very much for maybe five months at a time. That's luckily a situation that I could get myself into right now. I can't say that will always work. Sometimes I foresee in the future things being more difficult.
00:24:34
Speaker
Like what if I had a family and couldn't take care of, you know, my work that way and then also kids and also my dog and also my life, that kind of thing. But for right now, that's the way I've been getting along with it. I've gone through stages also like while working on a project where I had a part-time job or I worked remotely.
00:24:53
Speaker
that was the way that I worked on them right then. At the moment, I have a full-time job. I guess I can't say it will always be the way that it is in this very moment, but I have pulled off some work while having a full-time job. It is a miserable time. It's a bit like you have two full-time jobs for a few months, but it's not the worst thing in the world. I feel like so far I've been able to come through it with minimal scars.
00:25:20
Speaker
How do you ration your energy so that you can bring your best self to, you know, whatever project you feel deserves the best Rachel? I guess compartmentalization. I think I just try to be, you know, if I'm at work, if I'm at my day job, I'm at work. I'm just trying really hard not to like, I don't like to, you know, sort of have one foot in illustration while I'm at work. Like I don't, I try not to think about like,
00:25:50
Speaker
like, oh, I'm going to be painting tonight. Let's brainstorm the composition of this piece while I'm also trying to do work, because I will just result in A, not a very focused day at work, and B, probably not a great job at brainstorming. You just can't. I'm not a great multitasker, so probably that. And then when I'm at home doing illustration, I'm not thinking, tomorrow at work, I have this meeting, and I have to do this.
00:26:20
Speaker
leads to bad work. So I think it helps with a place, you know, like I prefer that I work in an office and then when I'm at the office, it's office time. And then when I come home, I'm in my studio and it's studio time. So that's helpful.
00:26:34
Speaker
that's brilliant that to really be able to wall it off like mentally and physically really quite literally you know you're able to create those boundaries and like in in my studio I'm not thinking day job and likewise you know day job not thinking about you know the painting of the writing I'm gonna be doing so that's got to be yeah it's got to be great I know I'm not particularly good at that you know when I'm at the day job oftentimes my
00:26:58
Speaker
brain is just firing off on basically this this is kind of my big project and so I'm like oh shoot I should it be I didn't put out enough you know marketing enough tweets and all this and I'm thinking like oh shoot I gotta email I gotta try to book this person and and so yeah like the mind is frayed and I'm very scatterbrained at times so it's it's really tough to compartmentalize when you feel like
00:27:23
Speaker
You know, things are just like rattling around the head. Especially if your day job is not particularly satisfying.
Research and Inspiration in Children's Nonfiction
00:27:29
Speaker
I've been in that position as well in the past where if you don't really like your day job, it's very easy to daydream about your moonlighting situation while you're at work. Right.
00:27:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So I really admire that, and it's such a good strategy. And Austin Kleon in his latest book, his great book, Keep Going, he specifically says, you want to be able to set up your bliss station.
00:27:59
Speaker
And he kind of took that term from Joseph Campbell, I think, writing about that. And what is your, as a way to compartmentalize, of course, what does your bliss station look like?
00:28:13
Speaker
It's interesting because I'm definitely, I don't feel like I'm particularly romantic about my work. I meet a lot of people who are like, this is the best. I just love writing and I feel like without it, I would cease to go on. For me, it's still work. I mean, I like my studio. I like being in there, like being surrounded by work that I've made.
00:28:38
Speaker
because it gives me a sense of accomplishment but it's a bit like at the end of a run you know like some people feel bliss while they're running i do not i feel like this is misery i hate exercising yuck but at the end of it i feel like i have accomplished this it feels good but the actual process of writing and illustrating like i
00:28:58
Speaker
I admire people. I don't have this gene. I admire people who that's the bliss, like the people who love running. That's the bliss, I don't know. For me, it's like I would always rather be like, you know...
00:29:10
Speaker
at the park with my dog or hanging out with my friends or seeing my wife. I would not prefer to be chained to my desk, but that's where the work comes from. So sit at your chair. Yeah, exactly. What kind of irritates me on socials is seeing the
00:29:30
Speaker
And I hope this doesn't offend anyone who does this but whatever it's just like you know they have a desk looking out at this beautiful vista and You know this is the writing life or whatever. I'm just like is it? Yeah, it makes me gag. I'm like no like I look at my wall that has foam on it like that's that's the writing life like being in a cave and Be like my writing my writing life is being surrounded by 15 half empty coffee cups Which I keep dipping my paintbrush into accidentally
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, and then some have mold. Yeah, you're like, oh no. That's a writing life. Surrounded by mold. So when your brain starts popping, where do you find ideas for stories that you think you're going to want to take the deep dive on?
00:30:20
Speaker
Hmm. I think for me, it's always reading nonfiction for adults. Like I read, I don't, I don't read a lot of fiction, which I feel like really sets me apart from most humans that I meet. Um, they're like, Oh, what's the book that you're reading? And I'm always like a history of smallpox. And they're like, what's wrong with you? Like, I just, that's again, I feel like it's the one I like to read, but sometimes in a larger work,
00:30:45
Speaker
Like when I decided I wanted to write this Brooklyn Bridge book, I was reading David McCullough's book, The Great Bridge, which is amazing. It's a fantastic work. I mean, it's easily my favorite of his books and he's a fantastic writer, but you know, it's dense and there's a lot to learn there about engineering, about the Victorian era, about New York, you know, all of these things. But I feel like finding, you know, when you're reading a larger work and you happen upon one little thing and you're like,
00:31:15
Speaker
Wait, you're just going to gloss over that? I need more information." And then if you do more information and you're like, well, this is still interesting, that's when I start writing things down. Yeah, so what was it about, let's say, the Brooklyn Bridge? What thing did McCullough maybe gloss over that made you want to maybe hook into?
00:31:36
Speaker
I mean, I think, like, to gloss over is a strong term for this in his book because he does pay her more attention than I feel like he ought to. I mean, given the other books about the Brooklyn Bridge are so driven by, like, the story of the designer and then of his son who took over when he died, which is a kind of romantic story in itself. It's like, oh, like, industry, like, he followed in his father's footsteps, like, all this kind of thing.
00:32:02
Speaker
But McCullough, he's like, oh, and by the way, sort of by the way, the last 12 years of the construction process were managed by Washington's wife. And you're like, that's a big chunk of time, like of a 14 year construction process. That's the bulk of it. I wanted more details on like what exactly she did.
00:32:24
Speaker
Like, did she just deliver the mail? Did she go down to the job site and tell anybody anything? Did she learn anything? And I think even when you read it, he definitely gives her credit. And the more I read, there are still some credit. There is a plaque on the Brooklyn Bridge thanking Emily Robling. It's very small. You could miss it easily. But it's there.
00:32:50
Speaker
But nobody told me this story in high school history, in college history. Nobody said, you know, by the way, this like great feat of American engineering had a lady involved. Just nobody mentioned it. And I was kind of like, that's strange. And I think, you know, I just wanted not necessarily because I think a lot of these books are coming out now, these sort of like hidden
00:33:16
Speaker
kind of things, which I think is great. I'm sure it's a huge marketing push for my book. But I just think it's not necessarily about that for me. It is. I mean, it's very important to me that a woman was involved. But I think what's more important to me is that
00:33:34
Speaker
You've all heard of the Brooklyn Bridge. Everyone, you don't have to live in New York. It's not a local story. I'm from Philadelphia. But you might not have heard of this part of it, which just feels like, wow, that's a whole other layer that I did not know. Yeah, and I love in your little presentation at Hippo Camp that on one of your slides, you wrote that you'll fall into a story or gather special collections of facts. So what does that look like for you when you fall into a story?
00:34:05
Speaker
When you read something and I just say, oh, I just want to know what it looked like. Like I want to know what that felt like. Like the book that I worked on about Calvin Coolidge's pets, which I know is like a bit of a silly story, but it was like my first one that I ever wrote. I fell into it because I was like, it was, I was reading through a list of facts and I came upon this, like, did you know that Calvin Coolidge had a pygmy hippopotamus?
00:34:32
Speaker
And I was like, what? Like, how does that... Why? Why would he have that? Also, what does anyone know about Calvin Coolidge? Like, if you ask a random passerby on the street, like, hey, tell me one thing about Calvin Coolidge. I would bet you they would say, I don't know even why you would ask me that.
00:34:52
Speaker
The more I learned about Calvin Coolidge and his pets, I was like trying to imagine, like, what did Calvin Coolidge's house look like if he had, you know, 13 dogs?
00:35:04
Speaker
What was a Sunday morning in Calvin Coolidge's house like? He had a collection of ducks and canaries. His favorite dogs had calling cards that they used to send to other places to visit. You get a picture of a person in your mind and you're like,
00:35:26
Speaker
I think I always, when I fall into a story, it's like I imagine like, what would it be like to have lunch with this person in this place at this time? What would they be wearing? What would they serve? So that's kind of what, how I get into it. I think a lot of people who write
00:35:44
Speaker
especially in children's books that are expository and it's more like a collection of facts. An author I know, Jen Swanson, she has written a lot, she wrote this very interesting book that I like quite a bit about the similarities between astronauts and deep sea aquanauts.
00:36:02
Speaker
And, you know, I just think that's fascinating because I've never, you know, I think kids, kids like space so much, but they don't necessarily think about like how you could do that in, in the depth of the ocean. I just thought that was really fascinating. And I think what drew her to it was like this, these two lists of converging facts. And so you don't have to have a narrative to fall into it.
00:36:25
Speaker
And you're doing all this research and I'm always fascinated by how how writers organize notes so they can best access it when they need it. And so how do you go about organizing all this stuff and so that you can then best access it when you're ready to start drawing or start writing.
00:36:47
Speaker
I would say it's a combination of things. I like to use Google Docs and Sheets because they're searchable. I've met people who go really old school and they have like notebooks full of information, but I don't think it's as quick for me. So I have like many, many, many lists of
00:37:08
Speaker
lists of links in Google Docs and Sheets, and as well as with reference photos, there are folders within folders within folders. I have a folder of reference photos, and then inside, for the secret engineer, I have a folder that's just pictures of Washington and Emily, and then a folder of pictures of the bridge, and then folders of pictures of Brooklyn, and then anything that comes up. I had to paint a rooster in that book.
00:37:37
Speaker
So I was like, I have 50 pictures of roosters, that kind of thing. I have many Victorian interiors because that happens, many Brooklyn streets, that kind of thing. So that's just reference photos, but for the research, I also had...
00:37:55
Speaker
There's a lot of math equations in the book that all had to be accurate. So I have a lot of civil engineers pocket guides circa 1900 saved pages and that kind of thing. And I usually organize it in just different folders that are searchable.
Storytelling and Visual Creativity
00:38:18
Speaker
You've said that in terms of stories and biographies that your favorite ones are always about people modestly wandering through the world who have seemingly insurmountable challenges dropped in their laps and conquer them just the same. So why do you feel like that, why does that hook you and draw you in? Maybe it's because I don't have a lot of bravado of my own, but I think
00:38:44
Speaker
someone rising to a challenge that they didn't seek out always seems more impressive to me than someone who like you always knew would be great like um if you say oh Mozart was a child prodigy and he was always going to be wonderful it kind of feels like you've blown like you've blown the story before you even get to it um i think like
00:39:11
Speaker
I like to ask people when I meet them as a sort of personality insight, which is silly because most people don't have an answer. But I like to ask them like, who is your favorite president? Just a C. And I think a lot of people have interesting reasons for why they pick their favorite. But I always, my favorite is Harry Truman for this exact reason. I think he might be the only president who never wanted to be president.
00:39:39
Speaker
And I think that's really fascinating because, I mean, you have to be a megalomaniac to want to be president, right? Like, it's insane. It's an insane job. You think you can run the world, literally. But I like that Harry Truman is just like this. He's just a haberdasher from Missouri.
00:39:55
Speaker
And then they're like, you're gonna be, you're gonna be president. And he's like, Oh, no, like, he definitely had an Oh, no moment, which I think is really special. I think there is a lot of figures in history like that, like, like Emily Roplin, who were just, you know, like, Oh, I think this is interesting. And I'm married to an engineer. But like, when
00:40:17
Speaker
When the time called for me to rise to that challenge, I was there. I love that. Oh, no. Over the course of the process of whether it's writing or illustrating, where in there do you feel most alive and most engaged in the process?
00:40:40
Speaker
When I start working on the final pieces, I like the sketch phase in a different way. It activates a different part of your brain because that's where you're making all the decisions. I think like the big decisions. But once those are approved, I think watching for me because I do most of my sketches in black and white in a traditional way, you know, they're just pencil and paper.
00:41:06
Speaker
I scan them in. Sometimes I'll move things around in Photoshop or make things smaller or bigger, but for the most part, it's an old school process. But when I'm go to put the color on is when I start seeing it look like a book. And I think that feels really like it feels special and it gives me a sense of momentum.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And is there anyone that appeals to you more that maybe informs the other a bit more so you have kind of like a flywheel sort of develops, like maybe the writing feeds the illustrating or vice versa?
00:41:44
Speaker
Oh yeah, I mean I think the research process is very much a flywheel. I think when I'm researching for a book, I'm never researching just for the illustrations or just for the writing. It's kind of for both in hand, but I do feel like sometimes when I'm writing,
00:42:08
Speaker
And I go to change something and I need to do more research to change it. I end up taking notes that go for illustration later, because there's just things that are visual that I know I want to capture in the illustration. And then sometimes when I'm looking at reference photos for an illustration, like I'll say like, Oh, I want to build, I want to draw this building. And in doing the research, I learn more.
00:42:32
Speaker
that I say, oh, I want to change the phrasing of this sentence to reflect that. So I think when I'm actually doing the artwork though, everything's already been approved by my editor, art director, the whole team at the publishing house. So I wouldn't say you're locked in, but it's more of a time of execution.
00:42:53
Speaker
And we alluded to it earlier that it's a crowded space. So it's kind of, you know, it's of course hard. Everything is crowded when you think about it. So it's a matter of standing out with style and having a point of view and really drilling down on what makes you you and sort of doubling down on that.
00:43:14
Speaker
So what are some of the challenges you faced in a crowded market to carve out your own little space where you can make a book like The Secret Engineer? I think it's tough because I don't always feel like I'm making something completely unique or special that no one else could do.
00:43:38
Speaker
It really feels most of the time like I have an immense privilege to have lucked into this. Maybe it's just that I lack some confidence, but primarily I do feel like there are so many people out there who are amazing illustrators, like so talented and amazing writers and so talented. And am I better than all of them to have gotten where I am? Certainly not.
00:44:08
Speaker
So there is an element of being in the right place at the right time. But also I think there's a, when you're really passionate about a story and you are really like authentically driven by your angle on this story and what draws you to it, I think it gives your work a sense of genuine authenticity that people can pick up on.
00:44:36
Speaker
When we pitched Secret Engineer to Who Would Become My Editor, she had been wanting to do a Brooklyn Bridge book, an Emily Roebling book, for years. She lives in Brooklyn. She works in Manhattan. She goes across the Brooklyn Bridge every day. She said she'd seen manuscripts come across her desk before to this effect.
00:44:59
Speaker
and wasn't particularly inspired by any of them, but mine was the closest and we still worked on it a lot before she accepted it. I still made a lot of edits.
00:45:09
Speaker
based on her expertise, which did make the project so much stronger. But I think we both connected on how this story was important to us. And I do feel like that gave me an edge. So I think if you pick a story or a collection of facts or a subject matter that you're really passionate about, editors will pick up on that and it will give you an edge.
00:45:39
Speaker
What did that back and forth look like between you and your editor and maybe that early vision of the book that you had and how that changed from idea to fully published? I think it was a real meeting of the minds in a way that I haven't had in a lot of professional relationships. I really admire my editor. I think she's so smart and like really knows how to frame a story in a way that
00:46:08
Speaker
I definitely am newer to like that is her realm of expertise. Um, and she really understands like the cadence and, and the rhythm that a picture book should have. And I, you know, at the time it was the second book I'd ever written. I didn't, you know, even now it's not like I have 50 years under my belt in this industry. So that kind of lens.
00:46:36
Speaker
through which to look at my work, like it did the story stands on its own as being a fascinating story. Absolutely. And that's the truth of most
00:46:45
Speaker
most nonfiction stories is like the reason you want to tell it is because the story is fantastic. But how do you tell it in 32 pages in 800 words? Like it's, it, you have to, every line has to be perfect. It has to make sense. You can't waste a spread. You can't waste a line. So what makes your angle on the story interesting and, and will it be interesting to kids is a big challenge. So I think talking with her about that and, and us both being really passionate about the story,
00:47:14
Speaker
It was less like an audition and more of a, how are we going to do this? And there was a sense of collaboration there, which I, it's so valuable to me. What was it specifically about illustrating and writing children's books that appeals to your taste?
00:47:33
Speaker
First, because the art is so integral to the story, I think in a way that not to say that I would never write for an older audience where there was less art. I might. I can't say I won't, but it's not part of my goals at the moment.
00:47:51
Speaker
But I think thinking in a visual way has always been important to me. And I think that kids internalize that in a way that adults maybe don't. And the books that you read when you're little kind of become part of your identity in a way that I don't think necessarily
00:48:11
Speaker
Hmm, books after you've come of age do. I think I definitely feel attached to some middle grade books in a way that, you know, feels still very integral to who I am. But I think that starts at a very young age. And
00:48:26
Speaker
you ever see a picture book? Maybe not. Maybe this is just me. But did you ever see a picture book where you just want to live in it? You're like, this is so beautiful. I just wish I could fall into this book and live here for a few days. I think that's something really special. So I've always wanted to wanted to try and achieve that myself.
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of feel that way with a lot of John Claussen's or Claussen, I think, his books and even good old Ferdinand, you know, just the bull out in the field and sitting under a tree and everything. Like I've even told one of my friends when we used to work together at a bookstore and I would read the Ferdinand every now and again.
00:49:15
Speaker
And I would just be like, man, I just want to sit under a tree and just live out my days just by myself staring out into the field, maybe scribbling in a notebook. And that's it. That's all I want. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, and there's so many flashier and
00:49:32
Speaker
and shinier things in the world now, certainly films and cartoons and TV. It's like every website even is, there's animations or videos on it now. It's very different than the slow paced, you know, you look at a book kind of world that maybe even I grew up in, but I think
00:49:57
Speaker
There's still something really special, like picture books aren't going anywhere because there's something really special between a parent and a kid or a teacher and a kid reading a picture book together and how that visual experience has an effect on kids.
Confidence and Creativity in the Digital Age
00:50:15
Speaker
With your work earlier, you were talking about that you might have, you know, have a certain degree of maybe an issue of confidence. And this is something I can definitely relate to. I'm someone who struggles immensely with confidence to the point where I have little to none. And I wonder how you mitigate that in your work and how you maybe
00:50:41
Speaker
deal with or pump up your own self-worth and confidence so you can approach the work with the skill that you've accrued over the years. For me, the biggest confidence boost is proof that I can do it.
00:51:03
Speaker
I think this has gotten increasingly harder in a time of social media, and I'd be interested to hear how you feel about that. But I really, really don't like it. I don't like social media. I've been trying very hard to do it because it's where people find you now. But it feels very unfair to me that a lot of the illustrators that I grew up admiring
00:51:25
Speaker
never had to deal with this. It feels very unfair. But, you know, everyone on social media seems like they're just making art all the time. They're just loving their life and, you know, things just flow out of them because that's the appearance you put forward. And I forget who said this to me, but somebody said, when you're looking at someone's Instagram, remember that you're looking at their highlights real, not at their every minute of the day. And it's been helpful to remember that. But I think
00:51:56
Speaker
something that I do while I'm working, especially on a book project, is that I hang clothes lines up in my studio on the wall. And as I finish the pieces, I hang them up. So at the beginning of a project, if I'm feeling particularly low confidence, I hang up work from other projects, just so that I can see, like, you can do this, you've done all these paintings before. And then, you know, as the project continues,
00:52:23
Speaker
No, as the paintings stack up on the wall, I feel like
00:52:27
Speaker
the light at the end of the tunnel that's clear and clear and don't worry. We've done this before. We've done all these paintings and they all look the way that you want them to look. You're not going to mess this up. I think at the beginning of a book project, it's the same. The writing thing is newer to me and I don't feel as confident about it, but I lean on the art because I work in such a visual medium. I feel like if I can draw this and I can imagine it, I can write it too.
00:52:55
Speaker
i've heard uh... mel robin's who's uh... it kind of a i don't know thought leader motivational speaker i don't i don't know uh... i've i've heard her speak that confidence comes from competency so it's like through doing the work like through you hanging up these these pictures these completed works that you've done on a clothesline so you can actually see what you've done that that breeds its own sense of confidence seeing
00:53:24
Speaker
your skill manifested in something material. So that's like kind of what she what she says and you've like concretely put it like being able to see that is like oh yes I am capable of this and and worth it and can still do this down the road for projects yet on projects unknown. Right like sure I think it's all great you know I think some people are easily
00:53:46
Speaker
you know, their fears are easily quelled by someone telling them they can do it. Sure. Like, you can do it. Okay, I can do it. That sounds nice. But for me, the only person who can prove that I can do it is me. So if I can prove to myself, you've done it before, you can do it again. It feels a lot more concrete.
00:54:07
Speaker
And alluding to the social media and sometimes the toxic nature of it, I do have my own sort of struggling relationship and fraught relationship with it. But it is a – it can be a –
00:54:25
Speaker
You know, toxic's a good word in that it can really stoke the flames of competition and jealousy, I think, especially, you know, when you are comparing their highlight reel to your 15 cups of moldy coffee or around your bliss station.
00:54:45
Speaker
So how do you approach, let's say, competition and maybe jealousy among peers if you find yourself looking over your shoulder, if that's something you've ever wrestled with? Yeah, I think it's tough. I would say it comes in phases. Sometimes if you're in a dark way and it does feel like, oh, you're getting our rejections or your projects are not taking off the ground and you see people who you feel like
00:55:14
Speaker
you know for whatever reason you're like why are they getting to do this and i don't get to do this or like you go to the store and you see a bunch of books that you just feel like our crap and you're like well how are all these crap books getting published and i can't do it you know that's a particularly low moment and social media doesn't particularly help me i don't really i don't know what it's like to be on social media and find it
00:55:42
Speaker
rewarding. I feel like I only do it because I have to. Occasionally, people will leave comments on my social media and say something nice and that's lovely, but it doesn't feel very real. I appreciate it.
00:56:03
Speaker
I don't know, it doesn't feel like when someone says to you in real life, like if they see your work at a bookstore, if they see your work at an art show, and they say like, oh, I really love this piece, it feels so much more real to me than like, just a, you know, a message full of emojis.
00:56:19
Speaker
right yeah that's it's such a I mean what a what a minefield that is to have to deal with and I as it's amazing you have said almost word-for-word words that I have myself said with
00:56:37
Speaker
you know why you know you I you look over your shoulder like how how are they get network I know I'm capable of that like why am I getting rejected and it seems like they're just getting they're getting everything and like and it gets really frustrating in and when you start wallowing in that then of course
00:56:53
Speaker
Social media is not the answer. Yeah, exactly. How do you pull yourself out of that darkness and then rechannel that energy into the work, into doing good work?
00:57:07
Speaker
I think honestly it all comes back to what energizes you and your work. I mean, I think the echo chamber of social media is a problem for me. I think a lot of people, maybe not, maybe that's an energizer for them, but for me it's a real de-energizer. I think for me, I want to go to my studio and look at the work that I've done and look at my bookshelf and look at the work that inspires me.
00:57:35
Speaker
Um, and see, you know, how can I like, oh, like I open up a Barbara Cooney book and I'm like, these illustrations are so beautiful. Like, how can I apply that kind of beauty to my work or, or I read a book, you know, and I think this is so.
00:57:51
Speaker
The structure of this is so smart. It was so beautifully done and executed in an elegant way. Like, how can I bring that elegance to my manuscript? I think that's what energizes me. And it's not something that I see scrolling through
Artistic Influences and Practical Tips
00:58:05
Speaker
on my screen. It's something that I open in a physical book on my bookshelf and it feels valuable. So maybe I'm, you know, old school or kind of a Luddite or whatever, but I think
00:58:18
Speaker
My inspiration never comes from social media, so I don't look there when I'm feeling down.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a wonderful way of looking at it. I'm looking at my bookshelf right now and the way I see my books, I see them in a lot of ways that someone who collects records or something and they just look and be like, you know what, I feel like pulling this album down and putting this on the turntable and just feeling that kind of inspiration. I'm just looking at the book that made me want to get into narrative journalism. I'm looking at it right now, John McPhee's The Survival of the Bark Canoe.
00:58:52
Speaker
and every now and again I'll just pull that down and I won't read the whole thing or even a whole chapter but I'll just read a page or two and that's like listening to one of my favorite songs or something and it's just like oh this is how it's done and you can do it too if you just put your nose to the grindstone and and work at it and I think a lot of people
00:59:10
Speaker
you know, they keep books in their house because they've read them and they throw them out every five or six years when they, you know, need to make room for new books. But like, I think it's a valuable thing to go to your bookshelf and remember why you kept that book. Like, why is this in your collection? Because that's really what it is. It's a collection. It's not just, you know, your pantry is full of spaghetti. It's you kept this book because it meant something to you. Sometimes
00:59:38
Speaker
I mean, we have many bookshelves in my house and most of them are filled with books for adults or books that we read together. But the bookshelves in my studio are just filled with picture books and they're just filled with the books that on some level inspired me. So when I'm lacking in inspiration, that's where I go.
00:59:56
Speaker
I'd love to hear what some of those books are for you, some of your favorite books on illustration that remind you how it's done, that put fuel in your tank. So that's one part of the question. But the other thing is maybe what are some other artistic media that you consume?
01:00:12
Speaker
to also fill up your tank. And that could be movies, documentary, film. I know you don't read novels, but something else may be a good podcast that does put fuel in Rachel's tank so you can approach your work with the energy that it deserves.
01:00:29
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, illustration, like words or illustration, but like just the illustration. All time favorite is Barbara Cooney. I have a I have a tattoo of a Barbara Cooney piece on my leg. Oh, she's easily my favorite illustrator.
01:00:47
Speaker
I go to her books a lot when I'm feeling like my paintings just don't look right. I also am a big fan of the illustrations of Mira Sasek. He's a mid-century illustrator who did a lot of really interesting line work. But not just illustration. I'm a big fan of Baroque painting. I feel like sometimes when I'm lacking in illustration, illustration inspiration, I'm looking at Jericho and
01:01:18
Speaker
and all of these old school European paintings, which are very narrative. I think they tell a story in a way that illustration needs to. I like J.C. Leyendecker, I like classic illustration, the golden age of illustration as well. That kind of NC Wyeth stuff, just really powerful and dynamic composition. When I'm looking for writing inspiration, I think I come to
01:01:48
Speaker
You know, a lot of the writers who write in my genre who are making true stories interesting or lyrical for kids, Jennifer Byrne, certainly.
01:02:02
Speaker
Let's see, Nancy Chernin, Nancy Carpenter. I guess she's an illustrator. But yeah, lots of books. I'm a really big fan of, oh, Gloria Whelan is the name I'm looking for. She did a book called Queen Victoria's Bathing Machine, which I come to a lot. It's written in rhyme, which I have never wanted to write in, but I love how she tells the story that's just kind of silly about Queen Victoria wanting to go to the beach.
01:02:30
Speaker
but didn't want to look unqueenly. So there's basically a wagon that would deliver her from the beach to the water that they called the bathing machine that Prince Albert made for her. It was really quite a funny story. It's lovingly told. It makes Queen Victoria enjoy character for kids. It's hilarious. I think for me, these are the authors that I come to.
01:02:56
Speaker
When I'm looking for facts, I do listen to a lot of podcasts. I really like 99% Invisible. I really like Radiolab. The British History Podcast, interesting. I think a lot of stuff like that, informational podcasts, I come back to a lot. But yeah, I also just sort of walk through the library a lot, the nonfiction section of the library. My library has a section on business and industry history, which I love.
01:03:25
Speaker
what they call micro-histories, histories about something that's sort of inconsequential. I love all of Mark Kerlansky's books. So yeah, I think that's quite a huge primordial soup of which my work comes out of, but I think that's probably what I would cite.
01:03:46
Speaker
I love that because artists are made of artists and books are made of books and similarly paintings are made of paintings. We distill so many of the things and digest all our influences to come out to what we hope is our singular voice. So I love seeing
01:04:05
Speaker
how we as garbage disposals, we just throw it all in and flip the switch and it grinds out and it spits out something gross, but that grossness is uniquely us. And I love hearing what that looks like for an artist. I think you can see it too, once you ask someone. It's not just like
01:04:24
Speaker
What kind of art they like or what kind of books they like if they write creative nonfiction? You don't ask them just like what are the other creative nonfiction? Authors you like like I feel like you can kind of tell that people like Musicals if they paint a certain way or you can tell that they do yoga if they paint a certain way like that kind of thing I think it like everything that you do
01:04:45
Speaker
comes out in your work, kind of like, you know, if you make wine in a certain place, like it's not just the grapes, it's like the dirt that it grows in and like whether there's also like cinnamon in the air and that kind of thing.
01:04:59
Speaker
I know I've heard Ira Glass talk about his love of he grew up going to musicals and the structure of those plays and those musicals deeply, deeply informed how he structures this American life. Yeah, that makes sense.
01:05:16
Speaker
Yeah, so these outside influences that are not really directly related to the work you do, but you can really pirate and steal little tips from that. I like watching chef documentaries and stuff, and I'm always thinking of that degree of creativity. How can I apply the way a chef is
01:05:39
Speaker
making a certain recipe or approaching their kitchen the way they organize and clean and and then of course their knife skills like how can how can I improve my knife skills as as a writer or in a podcaster sure yeah I mean I think and there's exercises like I think you know that part in Top Chef where they do you know the the like mise en place a relay race or they're like oh you have to chop these 15 onions and break down these three chickens and then like that kind of thing I'm sure there's
Conclusion and Social Connections
01:06:09
Speaker
exercises that like, for writers, if you do just sentence, sentence, sentence, break down, that's sort of your mise en place challenge, I think.
01:06:19
Speaker
Well, Rachel, as we're winding down here, I know I asked you for the new segment of the show, the recommendation part, which I don't know how long-lived this will be, but it's kind of exciting me at the moment. And so we're going to surf that wave. So I'd love for you to offer your recommendation as we close out this episode of the podcast. A recommendation of absolutely anything?
01:06:42
Speaker
of absolutely anything. I will say I recommend for anyone who's not who's painting and not already using it but master's brush soap. It will save your brushes forever. You can buy it in the tub or in a bar of soap and I actually once saw it in like a Martha Stewart Living magazine for people who don't paint to just wash their hands with it. It smells kind of nice and it keeps your hands nice. But also if you can clean your makeup brushes with it if you're a lady
01:07:09
Speaker
or you can clean painting brushes with it for your house painting. It will save all of those things, and it's a really long-lived product. I think it's been around since the 40s, but I would recommend that. I don't think enough people use it, and your brush is dying. You have to throw them out if you don't wash them, so save money. That's awesome. That's cool. Fantastic. Well, I know you hate social media, but where can people find you online, Rachel?
01:07:36
Speaker
Sure, I'm on Twitter at R underscore Daugherty, D-O-U-G-H-E-R-T-Y, and on Instagram at RachelDaughertyBooks. Also, it's weird that my name is pronounced that way, but it looks like Doherty, but it is said Daugherty from Philly. What's up, Philly? Well, I'm glad you said it, pronounced it that way, because in the introduction of this one, I record that later in the week, I would have said Doherty. Yeah, everybody would if it's wrong, right? There's not a C in it.
01:08:08
Speaker
Well, let's just keep the good times rolling straight into the outro. What did I tell you? She's great, huh? Great Instagram follow, by the way. Most illustrators are. That's a great way for you to improve your writing. If you ask me, you follow these illustrators and people from other artistic media on Instagram especially. I think it really informs the old writing gig. In any case, thanks for our sponsors and Goucher's MFA in Non-Fiction, Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Non-Fiction, and River Team.
01:08:37
Speaker
If you dig the show, consider leaving a kind rating on Apple Podcast. They make me feel good. I think they make you feel good, too. It validates the whole enterprise. Also, keep the conversation going on Twitter and Instagram. I ain't kiddin'. I ain't kiddin' CNFs.
01:08:53
Speaker
at cnfpod, this is a community podcast is merely the hub of the wheel so in any case i'm thinking that's it we're doing this aren't we we're still somehow doing this okay get out of here go do your work do your thing and if you can't do interview see ya