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Episode 310: Leah Flickinger
245 Plays3 years ago
Leah Flickinger is a features editor for Bicycling Magazine, Runner's World, and more. She edited Mitchell S. Jackson's "Twelve Minutes and a Life," which won the Pulitzer Prize in feature writing.
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Social: @CNFPod
Show notes/newsletter: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Brendan's Support for Writers
00:00:00
Speaker
ACNFers, if you're looking to get in shape, someone to hold you accountable, you hire a personal trainer, am I right? Likewise, if you're writing me to spotter, consider letting me help you out. If you're working on a book, an essay, a query, even a book proposal, and you're ready to level up, email me brendan at brendanamara.com and we'll start a dialogue. I'd be honored to help you get where you want to go.
00:00:23
Speaker
and start getting ready i'm finishing up reading the hero essays for issue three of the audio magazine i've got a new call for submissions forthcoming on a really really cool topic i can't wait for it to share with you coming soon and by coming soon i mean right now speaking of that let's put out the next call for submissions for issue four of the magazine codes
00:00:48
Speaker
That's
Call for Essay Submissions
00:00:49
Speaker
right. Codes to live by. Mantras. Personal beliefs. Rules. Oppressive. Liberating. I love people who are so principled they live by a code. Captain Fantastic. And even the Mandalorian. This is the way. Give me your best 2,000 word essays about codes. Email CreativeNonfictionPodcast at gmail.com with code in the subject line. Deadline is October 31st. This is the way.
00:01:17
Speaker
I'm done. Here,
Introduction to Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:01:21
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take it, I'm done.
00:01:28
Speaker
And this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. This is a non-award-nominated podcast. Maybe I should consider doing that. Is that a thing you can do? I don't know. I'm Brendan Amer. How's it going? Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, we've got a good one. Leah Flickinger.
Meet Leah Flickinger: Master Editor
00:01:49
Speaker
Leah's one of the rare guests on this show whose primary vocation is editing, accepting Jonah Ogles and Sayward Darby for the activist issues.
00:01:57
Speaker
You know what I mean, like that high level editing where structure gets talked about, where she has the key that says, like, hey, keep going. You know, those conversations where she says, this isn't exactly what I was hoping for, and how do we proceed from there?
00:02:13
Speaker
Right. Sidebar. When I asked Gloria Liu for a recommendation back in the day, like a few months ago, and I didn't clarify that it was for the listeners, my bad, she said, you should totally have more editors on the podcast and you should talk to Leah. And when I was talking to Kim Cross many moons ago,
00:02:36
Speaker
She had brought up Leah when dealing with her palindromic bicycling magazine feature. I don't want to presume Leah should, or maybe she could be the house leader of Ravenclaw. She strikes me as a Ravenclaw. Frankly, I'd have
00:02:53
Speaker
any editor that I want to work with, take a Harry Potter quiz, because Ravenclaw's I think make for good editors. Writers are definitely more in the camp of Gryffindor and Slytherin, I'm a Slytherin, hey-o. So what does that make Hufflepuff sound? SEO managers? I don't know.
00:03:11
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In this episode, we talk about voice and style, both as writer and editor, and we dig into Mitchell S.
Voice and Style in Writing
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Jackson's Pulitzer Prize piece, 12 Minutes in a Life, about Ahmaud Arbery's murder, and how Mitchell and Leah ushered that to the Pulitzer.
00:03:28
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We also talk about Kim, the aforementioned Kim Crosses structural pyrotechnics for her Leon and Noel piece for Bicycling, and how to have meaningful conversations between writer and editor. This is a good one.
00:03:42
Speaker
Also, this is pretty funny. At the end, mainly because I didn't feel like I had my fastball going in this interview, I asked her, Leah, if there was anything I didn't ask that she wanted to talk about. And she was like, you didn't ask me for my recommendation. And I was like, shit.
00:04:00
Speaker
I forgot to prime the pump so I didn't ask. And she came ready with one. So that's at the end. Promo code. There's no promo code. It doesn't matter. It's a little joke. You'll get it. I want to remind you to keep the conversation going on Twitter at cnfpod or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram.
Supporting the Podcast on Patreon
00:04:17
Speaker
You can support the podcast by becoming a paid member at patreon.com slash cnfpod. Yeah, I'm one of those. I have a Patreon.
00:04:24
Speaker
As I say, the show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap. Members get transcripts and chances to ask questions of future guests, special podcasts. It's a, it's a, as I am wont to say, it does happen good time. But free ways to support the show, you can leave a kind review or rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
00:04:43
Speaker
reading on Spotify, written podcasts, written review on Apple, written reviews for our little podcast that could go a long way towards validating it for the Wayward CNF. Like here's a new one from a Joel 5493, great podcast, great guest, great host.
00:05:01
Speaker
One of my favorite podcasts out there, even though the theme is creative nonfiction for each episode, each episode touches on different topics, giving the podcast a ton of range. Brenda does a great job of finding interesting guests and then getting the most out of them.
Podcast Reviews and Audience Appeal
00:05:15
Speaker
If you're a writer, you can enjoy it from that perspective. But even if you aren't, there are lots of other different perspectives you can enjoy it from. Truly something for everybody.
00:05:26
Speaker
Great stuff, great stuff, I love it. And if you leave a review, I'll surely share it. And with all of you CNF'ers here on the pod, also consider visiting BrendanOmero.com for show notes and my up to 11 monthly newsletter, book recommendations, book raffles, all sorts of goodies that I think will benefit you in your journey wherever you are in your creative journey.
00:05:52
Speaker
Once a month it is once a month, but I do like to say first of the month No spam as far as I can tell you can't beat it alright enough is enough I've teased out Leah pretty well here, and I think we should just get right into it right here's Leah Flickinger
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah,
Recognizing Unique Voices in Writing
00:06:21
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well, that's a great jumping off point, speaking of voice and everything. When you stumble across something that feels wholly unique, how do you put your finger on the pulse of voice, whether it's from the editing side or even from your own writing?
00:06:39
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Whoo, that is a good one to start with. I mean, it's so interesting because when I first kind of started working in magazines, I worked for a magazine that was really all about the magazine's voice. And so as an editor, I found myself sort of being encouraged to like edit out the writer's voice. And that was, it didn't feel very good, right?
00:07:08
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eventually I left that magazine and went elsewhere and kind of learned to an environment that was more receptive and open to and interested in individual voices. And it became so much more enjoyable to work on those kinds of
00:07:29
Speaker
stories. With Mitchell in particular, when I got his story, when he submitted it and I read it, it was exactly what I wanted, but I couldn't have asked for that. And that's in a way
00:07:47
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When I think about writer's voice, it's not something you can ask for specifically, right? It's something that they have and it's like their gift to the reader in a way.
00:08:02
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That's a wonderful way of putting it. And it is such a hard thing to pin down and to cultivate, because it can be cultivated through imitation and then repetition. And through that, it starts to bubble up. And then there is something that is identifiably you. So for you, how have you cultivated your own voice and gotten as comfortable as you can in your own shoes? As an editor or as a writer?
00:08:32
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Let's go with both. Maybe take it from the writer point of view and then how you locked into your own degree of editing voice. Yeah, it's so interesting. I don't really think of editing from a voice perspective. Yeah.
00:08:48
Speaker
So that might be a tricky one for me to answer as a writer. I don't really and I don't really do that much writing, but I definitely probably am still in like the imitation phase where I'm like, Oh, I like the way that story felt to read and I want to do something like that and see if I can make it my own. Again, I don't don't really get to do that much writing. I had like a short period of time between
00:09:17
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jobs a few years ago where I freelanced for about a year and did get some assignments and got to sort of like try out a few things, but I'm not sure I know exactly what my own voice is as a writer yet.
00:09:34
Speaker
I think it really evolves. It's an ever-evolving thing. It's not like it just kind of clicks one day. There is an element of it, like, oh, you just feel kind of comfortable in, you know, when you when you set down to write and rewrite, there is an element of just being kind of like, oh, yeah, I feel I feel good here. And I think that does I think that's a sign of a really good writer to to kind of evolve and not just stick to the same sort of
00:09:59
Speaker
I don't know, transcript where it just becomes like you imitating yourself, especially as the body of work grows. Right, right, right, for sure. So like as an editor, I almost don't know how to answer that question. I might need more information.
00:10:16
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Well, maybe when it comes to editing, it might not be so much voice, but maybe a certain kind of a style. What helps me understand it too is thinking of a good hitting instructor in baseball.
00:10:32
Speaker
It's just like a good hitting instructor isn't going to force a certain body into a cookie cutter form or path to hit the ball. They'll be like, OK, each player has a different mind, has a different approach, has different levels of confidence. And it's incumbent upon the coach to kind of hear those individuals and be like, OK, this is how I can tailor my skills to help them be the best hitter they can be.
00:11:01
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some editors can be very heavy-handed, do a lot of rewriting on the writer's behalf, or you might be like, you know, here's a little nudge, let's try this and push you into that direction. Yeah, okay, that helps me. I mean, it's very, like, as you alluded to, it's very different from writer to writer and story to story. Each situation is completely new, even if it's a writer you've already worked with, because it just depends on how, where they meet the story.
00:11:27
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And I feel like, you know, over the years, as I've developed as an editor, you know, I used to do, as I kind of mentioned, more heavy-handed rewriting. That was kind of like, that was the assignment. And I kind of didn't know how to do it any other way. And, you know, in some ways it was like, well, I know exactly what this needs to sound like, so it's easier for me to just do it than to ask them to figure out how to do it or to suggest to them
00:11:54
Speaker
You know, this is what I need. I wasn't super good at like Articulating the thing that I needed I could think it but I couldn't articulate it and as I as I developed, you know that became Easier I also you know and I I began to understand that it was just a much better way to work with writers and to get good work out of them and because ultimately I feel like
00:12:22
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It's all about the relationship between the writer and the editor. And that kind of to me is like the most important thing in getting a great story. How have you learned to cultivate that relationship, especially if you don't have a pre-existing relationship in the past with someone?
00:12:46
Speaker
Over the over time and communication around the assignment. You get a
The Editor-Writer Relationship
00:12:52
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lot of opportunity to really sort of like dig into ideas and conversations. I mean, ideally, you know, I try, I try to be available as much as possible for writers if they
00:13:04
Speaker
need to talk. Again, this is something that when I was younger, like I just didn't understand. I didn't understand that, you know, you couldn't just make an assignment and kind of like go away. It's like you really, you have to be, you have to let the writer know that you're there for them.
00:13:24
Speaker
You need to proactively check in with writers. And I used to also like, I used to really avoid phone calls because like I'm generally a shy person. And I also felt like if a writer needed to talk to me, it was because they had questions and I was going to have to have the answer. And what if I didn't have the answer? And then really what they just needed was to talk.
00:13:46
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about it. And they just needed someone to bounce ideas off of so that they could understand that they weren't crazy or going down the wrong track or too deep in a rabbit hole that was not productive. And those conversations have really become key in creating amazing stuff.
00:14:13
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When I was talking with Jonah Ogles a few weeks ago, because I do this thing with the Atavists where I interview the lead editor of their piece every month and then the writer, I just got to talking to him about how he approaches that editor-writer dynamic and how he walks into the writer's personality, whereas he's not imposing sort of his own playbook on them, like he feels them out and then
00:14:42
Speaker
It's on their home turf, as it were. And I was wondering how long it takes you, or how long did it take you to learn, and then maybe how long it takes you on an individual basis to feel out the person you're working with to then get the best out of that person and that piece. Yeah, I mean, again, it really depends. It depends on the person and the story, the circumstances. And also, there's just that human thing, right? When you click immediately with someone,
00:15:12
Speaker
Obviously, the amount of time, it doesn't take much time to get into this plane of understanding. But sometimes you don't immediately click and it takes a little bit more time or the writer is less verbally expressive.
00:15:30
Speaker
says things in a way that I don't understand. I have one writer who I love working with so much, and I've worked with her for years, but when we first started working together, I didn't really understand how she operated as a creative.
00:15:50
Speaker
And it took me a really, really long time to figure her out, like years. And I mean, now it's one of my most satisfying, you know, writer relationships. And we've done some really, really great work together, but that was really hard, you know, for a while.
00:16:12
Speaker
What would you identify as a lot of commonalities of writers that come across your desk that you work with, and maybe common pitfalls that you help them get over? It's a rare circumstance where a story comes in and the structure is there. I find that usually the structure is, if it's not, sometimes a writer will get
00:16:43
Speaker
kind of directed by their interviews and less so with the actual story so that their first draft will be like kind of in the order that the interview happened or in the order that they did their interviews because that's just where they were when they started writing instead of like stepping back and sort of synthesizing it all and seeing how where the story is in the interviews.
00:17:12
Speaker
And that can affect structure, obviously. So I see that kind of a lot. I was asking Michael Schulman about that at one point. He wrote a really great profile, as he does, for it was on James Corden. And it was written in New York last year, sometime maybe two years ago. But there was a moment at the very end of the piece where it was like a really, really solid ending and a great quote to end it on.
00:17:41
Speaker
I think I asked him like when in his interviewing that quote came up and I was and I don't think I think it actually did happen to come late in his conversations with James but I was just I was hoping that it was like one of the first things James said and then it like he put a pin and be like oh that's a good ending
00:17:58
Speaker
And I'm going to like, you know, everything else is going to transpire the way it transpires. But he's like, OK, that has the the tune of an ending. And I'm just going to put a pin in that. And even though it happened so early in our conversations that it's like when you like it's like you're getting it. It's like that part is like, OK, let's ration that. Let's save it for the end where it just feels more fitting.
00:18:20
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Yeah, I mean, and that's that's a real skill that comes with, you know, to be able to do that and recognize that in an interview situation. You know, it's also it's tricky because, you know, sometimes it depending on the story, you have to really turn it around quickly, right? And it's like, you just have to deal with all the stuff that you have and you have to get it into a story. But the other thing I see, you know, you reminded me of this with that anecdote is like,
00:18:48
Speaker
endings that just aren't well thought out, right? It's like, especially with that first draft, they're like, I'm done. Here, take it, I'm done. And I too have been in that situation as a writer where I'm just like, this is all I have.
00:19:04
Speaker
I can't think about it anymore. But I use I find that like the time in between, you know, them turning it in and me kind of giving it the read and sending back notes gives them time to kind of like really think a little bit more like to be away from it and then be able to come back and kind of see that it needs more development. Now, for for you as an editor, at what point did you really start to walk into loving editing as a as a craft?
00:19:39
Speaker
Early in my career in publishing, I was actually a fact checker when Rodale Press had a big, huge book division. And there was this department of 17 fact checkers. And I was in that department, and I really loved fact checking. But there was also this department of 25 writers. And every single fact checker wanted to be a writer. That was the ultimate goal. And I was like,
00:19:58
Speaker
I would say pretty early on in my career.
00:20:07
Speaker
I don't really want to be a writer. I want to be the editor. I don't really know why. I guess as a fact checker, I wasn't creating from whole cloth. I was working with something that was already there and I liked that molding opportunity. Someone that I worked with at the time said,
00:20:29
Speaker
felt the same way. And she said, yeah, I don't really like writing. I like rewriting. And I was like, it wasn't exactly that for me, but it was like, I didn't want to be the one kind of like figuring out how to say it all at first.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, so it was pretty early on. Because it's one of those things where it is a mindset thing. I think a lot of people, they want to be the writers because there is a certain degree of prestige and sort of notoriety to have the byline there and everything like that. We all get that kind of charge. And I think there's an element too of a good coach and a good editor is equally satisfied to know they had a hand in it without being on the spotlight.
00:21:08
Speaker
So was that something that you just kind of easily walked into, the fact that you could know that you had a hand in something, but you know you weren't necessarily getting the top billing of the author? So that is tricky for me, and this is going to start feeling like psychotherapy.
00:21:29
Speaker
when I first started working at magazines as I was an editor and I, you know, I had that thrill every single time the issue would come out and my name was on the masthead and I knew that I had edited, you know, X number of stories, pages, whatever in the magazine. And that lasted for years. I mean, years. And then in the last, I would say 10 years, maybe, like as the stories, as I began to work on more features and more high profile stories,
00:21:59
Speaker
I did kind of start to feel a little bereft that I could work so closely with a writer and help a writer make something amazing and then really see nothing for my effort publicly. I admit that because it's like...
00:22:24
Speaker
I do sometimes feel that editors are maybe a little too content to sit in the background and deserve a little bit more public recognition. And I think that's okay.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, Bill Donahue, who's a great freelancer, and he just had a piece last month in the activist. And on his website, and this is really cool, he lists the editor of every piece that he has published, which I've never seen that before. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. He's giving nods to everyone in the collaborative process. Yeah, I noticed that too. It's so funny because I literally, right before we started talking, hit publish on a Bill Donahue story for Bicycling.
00:23:06
Speaker
Oh, no kidding. Yeah. And I saw that. I noticed that on his website, too. And I think that that's really I don't know. That's nice. It's a nice thing to do. Yeah. Well, it gets I think in this game, it gets it's it gets what gets lost is that is that collaborative team nature. You know, with the it's it's not just one pitcher on the mound. It is truly and is what out of us does really well, too. They list the designer, the copy editor, the fact checker.
00:23:36
Speaker
the lead editor and of course the writer so you get a sense of okay it's not just you know a really talented and skilled reporter and writer going off and then doing this thing on their own and wow look at how great this thing came together sure they they take a lot of the heavy lifting but it is all of these elements together that brings this thing to light and it's like it's it's good to see the whole team
00:23:59
Speaker
get some of that limelight because it is truly a team sport. It is. And actually, that's one of the things I really like about the work is the collaboration. It's just enormously satisfying to work together with a whole bunch of creative people and make something amazing.
00:24:20
Speaker
When you're getting bombarded with pitches and stuff of that nature, what stands out to you of like, okay, this one has enough to run with, this one is like, I don't know, this one's kind of there. What's kind of the calculus going on in your head? So I find, and this probably feels like a cliche, but I feel like
Evaluating Pitches: Beyond the Idea
00:24:46
Speaker
If I read a pitch and it makes me feel something, then I think that it probably has potential. I mean, that's not to say, that probably doesn't apply to every pitch and it's a little bit vague, but I get pitches. I worked on a story in late 2019 and then it published in January 2020 about
00:25:10
Speaker
this guy who had, for bicycling, and he had gotten a heart transplant and he rode his bike across the country to meet the donor's parents. And the pitch itself was like,
00:25:24
Speaker
This was like the mood of it was like, there's this guy who got this heart transplant and he's going to ride across the country to meet the heart donor's parents. And he says that he likes pizza now. And the guy, he never liked pizza before, but the guy whose heart he has loved pizza. Like that was the gist of the pitch. But I was like, holy shit, this guy has a heart transplant. He's going to ride across the country to meet the donor's parents.
00:25:50
Speaker
That's so emotional. So the pitch itself was not that objectively great, but I felt like there was a great potential in that story and it was a great story, ultimately. But then I also get really, really beautiful, well thought out,
00:26:14
Speaker
pitches that you see that there's a beginning, a middle, and an end, and the writer knows exactly where they're going with this. And that's always nice, but that's pretty rare too.
00:26:25
Speaker
When I was talking with Gloria Liu, who you work with quite frequently, we got to talking about pitching and this idea of idea versus story. And that's kind of where a lot of pitches fall flat. People have good ideas, but there's no animating force behind it. So with that, how is your barometer measure that when you're reading a pitch?
00:26:53
Speaker
I mean, yeah, sure, that's like, classic advice. And, you know, it's like, it's a huge pitfall that we get, we see a lot with, with freelancers who pitch us. And, you know, it just like, if there's a glimmer of something in the idea,
00:27:11
Speaker
Then sometimes it's worth talking to the writer and saying like, look, this is a great idea, but there's just like, where is your story? And, you know, have them come back with a recast pitch that's, you know, more complete and more well thought out.
00:27:26
Speaker
But that's also where your relationships come in. That's a place where you can start building that relationship. And if you feel like the writer has a good sense for an idea that your audience is going to respond to, even if it's not a story yet, it's worth talking about.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's a I remember I had to pitch was when Jonah was still at outside magazine and I had pitched something about a Crater Lake National Park here in Oregon where I am and there's this whole idea like Crater Lakes the the level of the lake in that caldera it like doesn't rise or fall like water goes in but some has to go out but no one knows where the water goes and
00:28:15
Speaker
and I was just like so like infatuated like almost like a scientific mystery and so like I pitched the idea but I didn't know the answer to the mystery and I didn't have any like strong central figures like so I had like a cool idea but I didn't have any characters to animate the story and I certainly didn't know the end of it which is of course what the editor needs to know too like what's the we need to know the end of the story the reader doesn't need to know but you guys need to know
00:28:42
Speaker
Well, I mean, the other thing is, though, just being fair, like sometimes you don't know the story. Sometimes you don't know the story until you've done the reporting. And so you have to have like a sense for the potential in an idea.
00:28:58
Speaker
have you like how long had it taken you to kind of gauge that for yourself and writing like okay there it I can tell there might be something there versus like oh no that yeah that I mean again for me it's like so much about the feeling and the emotion like you know I once so I had so I was at bicycling for 10 years and then I left
00:29:21
Speaker
and I was freelancing and I pitched an idea to the features team there. And I was like, this retired bike racer just got a job as like the director of this women's team and she's amazing and we should do a profile of her. Like now is the time, which is like a terrible pitch.
00:29:47
Speaker
They were like, I don't know. Actually, I think I pitched it to Gloria because she was still there at the time. They were like, oh, I don't know. I was like, guys, I know this is a really good idea. I forget how I ultimately convinced them to let me do it. Ultimately, it ended up being a story about disappointment and legacy and rewriting your
00:30:13
Speaker
your story, but I didn't really know that. I couldn't really articulate that. It came through as I was writing it, but. Yeah, and to that point, I think maybe a lot of people, and I'm sure as hell have been guilty of this, probably still am, is I tend to sometimes, and I imagine others do too, is to, you pitch before you do enough reporting or pre-reporting.
00:30:40
Speaker
to kind of get at least a sense of where the story could be going. Of course you know it could change based on the full deep dive. Do you find that that's a pitfall of a lot of people they just didn't do quite enough legwork up front? Yeah, probably. It's tricky too and I respect
00:31:01
Speaker
writer's time and resources like sometimes it feels like it doesn't make any sense to spend days reporting on a pitch that might not get that might not be interesting um so i do get a lot of like quick emails like hey is you know like well one or two sentences like how about this like company that does e-bikes that have
00:31:25
Speaker
you know, special alarms. I'm like, okay, but that might be interesting. Ebikes are cool. Can you give me more? And so at least then like they know, okay, she might be interested in entertaining this idea and then it will be worth taking a little bit more time.
00:31:42
Speaker
to the what struck out to me when you're like when you get a pitch and it makes you feel something and would you say or have you identified any any blind spots in your own taste where you might not feel something but maybe someone will be like you know what this is actually really this is really good but it might not light you up but it there is value
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. We have a team of features editors at the Hearst Enthusiast Group, which is where I am now. And it's nice because we all have different interests and we respond to different things differently.
00:32:25
Speaker
So sometimes we always talk about all pitches. We have a weekly meeting where we talk about pitches. And I might have a pitch that I'm a little bit lukewarm about, but then somebody else on the team might be like, yeah, this sounds really amazing. And if we have enough other signs and indicators that it's a good choice for us, then it's worth having somebody else pick up.
00:32:54
Speaker
And as an editor, what would you identify something that would be kind of like a superpower you have? I feel like I am really good with structure. It's one of those things, though, where it's like I have to get into the zone and like sit with a piece and kind of like
00:33:24
Speaker
almost stare at it without seeing it. It's a weird mind meld with the words that I can't even explain, which is unfortunate because it could be helpful if I could. But it's like, I have to give a story enough time for me to really be in it and see where all the pieces go.
00:33:53
Speaker
It's something that I really enjoy, but it's also like when it doesn't happen, when I'm struggling with it, it's really, really hard and frustrating.
00:34:03
Speaker
Yeah, we often talk, you know, writers will sometimes, if they're stuck, will go for a long walk or pivot to something else entirely. You know, likewise, for you, if you feel stuck and you're having a hard time getting in the zone, what helps you maybe get back into the zone or find the zone? Yeah, I mean, for sure, taking breaks. I take lots and lots of breaks. I check Twitter, I do this, I do that. But one thing that I do,
00:34:30
Speaker
that I like to do is read another story. Like read a story that's done, that someone else published, that's good. And just kind of be reminded of like, okay, you know, like what good pacing and writing feels like and sounds like. Or, you know, reread something that I did or reread like my memo to a writer and remind myself like, oh yeah, this is how I do it. Because I sometimes feel like,
00:35:00
Speaker
When a story comes in, no two stories are alike, obviously. You open up the file and you're faced with this gigantic new problem that you've never seen before because they're all so different. It's pretty daunting to me each time, even though I've been doing this for a really long time. I will open a story and be like, oh my God, this is the one that I'm not going to be able to figure out.
00:35:26
Speaker
It's almost like starting over like every single time, no matter how much experience you have. And I have to remind myself like, okay, well, you've done this for, you know, you did this on the last 50 stories that you got in, you managed to like, and so sometimes it helps me to just kind of like read through like where I got to on another story and remind myself that like, okay, yeah, this one took like three drafts, four drafts, but like it got there and this is how you did it.
00:35:53
Speaker
When you get the first draft, let's say, from someone you're working with, what are you looking for on that first read of a major submission of a first draft? I mean, what I'd love to see is the beginning, the middle, the end. I would love to see the tension. I would like to be sort of transfixed. I would like to... I want to...
00:36:19
Speaker
be able to read it through without wanting to take a break or needing to take a break. Basically, I want it to be done. I want it to be perfect. I don't want to have to work on this thing. I've gotten to the point over the years where now I can see pretty quickly if most of the elements are there.
00:36:44
Speaker
It doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes it takes me a little while to realize like, oh, yeah, this is like actually, you know, the writer did a ton of reporting, but the story is like there's a million amazing details on the story, but it's just not that interesting because there's no tension and the structure is all wrong. And there's like the writer kind of lost sight of like the thesis or whatever.
00:37:07
Speaker
A moment ago you were talking about when you're stuck maybe reading pieces that you've worked on or other pieces that have stuck the landing. What are some things that come to mind or writers and even editors you've worked with or know who have worked on pieces that are kind of like those Rosetta Stone pieces that help you crack the code of what you're working on?
00:37:27
Speaker
I mean, I don't know that I have a particular story that I go back to. But if I'm working on a profile, I will maybe hit up the long form website and just read a couple. It's like going to the library, right? I check out a couple of profiles. Or I haven't done this in a while, but if there's a writer that I really
00:37:56
Speaker
like I'm into or whatever, I will like maybe look up some of their work and kind of review it. I think it helps to think too that pretty much there's no reinventing the wheel. Like whatever story is going to come out, there's probably one in the past that has a similar structure that you can model and even just treat it kind of like tracing paper where it's just like you can
Creative Structuring in Storytelling
00:38:21
Speaker
You can kind of copy the structure and not the content, but you'll be like, okay, maybe beat for beat. This is how I can, you know, write this profile in a certain way. And it'll read fresh because it's new material and it's a slightly different voice. But is that something you recommend to people who might be like, hey, you know what? You're doing this kind of profile. Maybe read this. Well, you know, it's funny. I've never really thought of it like that.
00:38:43
Speaker
I've never looked at a story and been like, oh yeah, that's the structure that we need to apply to this story. Like that's not, I don't do that. But I mean, there are plenty of times when writers will say like, what are some stories that you, you know, like, what are some profiles that you have really liked? Can you send them to me? And I'm, you know, always happy to do that. But I, you know, I really, I don't want the writers to like, I don't want people to, to like, look at those and be like, oh, this is what she wants.
00:39:11
Speaker
I want, you know, I want them, I don't want to influence them. I want them to do their thing because like what if their thing is like completely new and original and amazing.
00:39:20
Speaker
And speaking of new original and amazing was Mitchell's incredible piece on Ahmaud Arbery. And that's got such a great structure to it. He just threads in Ahmaud's final 12 minutes with his life. And then there was even some personal things too. It's just an amazing amalgam of these things, told with an incredibly gifted writer.
00:39:50
Speaker
What was it about that piece that lent itself to that degree of virtuoso storytelling? Well, I mean...
00:40:01
Speaker
It's so interesting because when I talk about this story, when I think about this story and this assignment, how it all happened, it could have very easily been a different writer and a completely different story. You don't necessarily know what you're going to get. And when this story, when we decided we wanted to do a story around Ahmaud Arbery's murder,
00:40:31
Speaker
I knew that I wanted his story to be told by a black writer. It felt like the right approach. And in my mind, I also thought that the writer should be a runner because runner's world. Then this would be a person who understands what it's like to run while black and would be able to speak to that.
00:40:54
Speaker
you know, and I wanted it also to be like, I wanted it to be what it came out as, but I couldn't have told you that, right? Like I wanted it to be amazing. I knew it was an important story and an important moment.
00:41:07
Speaker
And I did ask a few writers, I had identified a few writers and they were all like, no, I just don't wanna write about black men being murdered anymore. I just don't wanna do it. And I got that. And I had actually reached out to a colleague at Hearst who used to work at Esquire, Ryan D'Agostino, who's like an editor, special projects editor now with
00:41:34
Speaker
director with Hearst so he works with multiple brands and there was a writer who had done a profile for Esquire that I had thought might be good for the story and I hadn't ever worked with him. Like the other thing is you know when you are reaching out to a new writer especially with a story that's like super important.
00:41:52
Speaker
you want to find out as much as you can about the writer and their work style and like, you know, what are their drafts like? How well do they take feedback? You know, because you're getting into a relationship with them. I knew this was going to need to move fast and I just wanted as much information as I could. And so I asked Ryan if he had ever worked with this particular writer and he's like, actually, no, you know, why do you ask? And I explained to him, you know, my, my, what was happening and,
00:42:22
Speaker
I said, do you have any suggestions? And he said, well, I have two. One was this woman, and then the other one was this writer, this novelist, Mitchell Jackson. I was still waiting to hear back from one other person I had contacted. And so I kind of looked into the two suggestions he had. And I was like, well, Mitchell seems like pretty perfect, having read his bio. And I was like, well, he's not.
00:42:50
Speaker
Not exactly the runner that I was looking for, but how much does that really matter? And maybe that's actually part of the problem. And so I did finally hear back from this one writer I was waiting for, and he said no. And so we decided to approach Mitchell. And he was technically Ryan's writer at Hearst, so he kind of made the introduction. And we had a little Zoom call.
00:43:20
Speaker
I told him what I was looking for and he really got it. He brought a few extra little things to the conversation that I hadn't really thought about, like the whole Portland connection, which was very personal for him because he was from Portland. It hadn't occurred to me to look for a writer who was from Portland who would be able to...
00:43:43
Speaker
So in many ways, I feel like finding Mitchell was like finding the perfect person to tell this story, but I didn't even really know that until I found him. Yeah. And like Mitchell's biggest concern at the time was like, well, you know, we're in lockdown. I can't travel. Like, are you sure I'm going to be able to report this story? And I was like, we have no choice. You know, it's like this is what we have to do. And so we were like, yeah, let's do it.
00:44:12
Speaker
Because you had the idea of what you wanted the story in your head, though, couldn't articulate it right away until I'm sure as his drafts were coming in, you're like, oh, that's that's kind of that's what it was like. What was that dynamic like? Yeah, I mean, I actually was very clear about what I wanted. What I just didn't know is like.
00:44:32
Speaker
what I want, what I ultimately wanted was what he delivered. Like, you know, that's hard to explain. But like, you know, what I wanted was I wanted, you know, I had seen on social media, like stuff bubbling up about how Ahmad wasn't really a runner, quote unquote, you know, because he wasn't wearing the right clothes. And I, you know, I was like, that is like,
00:44:59
Speaker
a huge part of the problem here, right? He's being judged because he doesn't fit into this exclusive club that people have decided people have to dress a certain way. And because of that, he was chased down and killed. And so I knew I wanted that sort of exploration of who he was as a runner and
00:45:27
Speaker
once we knew that, like who he was as a person. And then the other part of it was just how so often in these stories about black men being killed, we don't hear about what that violence has taken away from their families and their loved ones and what potential that has taken away in them. And so that's what I wanted him,
00:45:55
Speaker
to really share with us who Ahmad was and what we've lost and what this legacy of white supremacy and racism has taken. So I was very clear that that's what I wanted. And I wanted that sense of what it is like to run while Black and why this is an issue.
00:46:23
Speaker
And so it's like you can I could have told that to another writer who would have like given me that but maybe not in this rich way that Mitchell was able to, you know,
00:46:37
Speaker
keeping in mind that he literally did all the reporting on the phone. He did bring that whole Portland origin of running element to the story, which I hadn't really asked for because I honestly felt like I was asking for enough already. But he managed to bring that in and
00:47:01
Speaker
And it was just like a key piece of a puzzle that was sort of missing, made it whole. Did you find that his experience as a fiction writer brought a certain degree of a writerly heft to this piece? Oh, absolutely. I mean, those two, the sort of book and football scenes were just so
00:47:27
Speaker
so alive, you know, you could hear the sounds, you could hear the crashing of, you know, the shoulder pads and the helmets and hear the people cheering in the crowd. And, you know, you could see, I could just see the exact way the light was coming down from the, you know, the field lights, you know, and the dust in the air, you know, like, even if he didn't say that, you just knew that that was there, right? Because his writing was so vivid.
00:47:57
Speaker
What were some of the conversations that you and Mitchell had as the piece was coming to fruition? When he turned in the first draft, I read it and I was blown away. It was very, it was fully formed, right?
00:48:23
Speaker
all the elements were clearly there. This is one of those stories where it was like, okay, yeah, he has everything. But there was some structure stuff that was a little wonky. I mean, that basic structure of the vignettes from his final 12 minutes,
00:48:49
Speaker
That was all there. And that was a really good structure for this story, and that did not change. But there was
00:48:58
Speaker
the whole, you know, the stuff about Portland was much later in the piece. And then there was actually more of the, I call it exposition, but it's like, it was so beautifully written that it doesn't feel like exposition, but it's like the, you know, all that stuff about, I want you to know about Maude, you know, this, you know, all those things. There was a lot, there was actually a lot more of that.
00:49:19
Speaker
And the balance was off like that's another thing with editing, you know with pacing like things, it has to feel balanced. And so the balance was off and so there was so you know I, I had to ask him, you know asked him to maybe pair back on some of that you know and I was really careful to say, you know,
00:49:39
Speaker
not because the writing isn't beautiful, but just because the balance is not quite there. The other thing was too, because all that stuff about Portland and the origin of running
00:49:52
Speaker
was so late in the piece. It wasn't immediately clear why this was a story for Runner's World. That had to be clear earlier. So those were the kinds of things that we talked about. I sent him back notes to that effect. When I read through those notes, I was very impressed with how organized I was with my thoughts. I wanted him to trust me. I didn't want him to
00:50:17
Speaker
you know, not so much resist, but like be offended by any of my questions or suggestions.
00:50:25
Speaker
Do you ever run into a situation where you somehow feel insecure or inadequate on the other side of the table? Like, oh my god, can I rise up to the writing? Well, that's a loaded question because we all have our issues, don't we? Oh, yes. I mean, the thing is,
00:50:49
Speaker
It's less that I felt insecure. For me, I did not set out to be an editor. I did not set out to go into journalism. I did not set out to go into publishing. I essentially taught myself everything I know and have always felt like
00:51:05
Speaker
I'm like always kind of making up for lost time. And so like, you know, I'm like just like one step away from like revealing to the world that I actually don't know what I'm doing, right? Like imposter syndrome, classic. But, and I don't know if it would have been different if I had actually like gone to J school and like learned all the things. So yeah, there is, there is, I mean, and like I said earlier, it's like every time I get a story, I'm like, this is the one that I'm not going to be able to figure out.
00:51:35
Speaker
But then I do, and I'm like, oh yeah, I do know how to do this, so I don't know.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah, I most of the a lot of people I've had on the show and some of the people who are the best at what they do are actually the ones who Didn't get boxed in through the J school path and the journalism path. They learned by doing and some of that like there I'm surprised how many Are like that? They're just kind of self-taught and and they experienced their growing pains, but they were better for it really yeah, I mean I
00:52:09
Speaker
It made for some really difficult years. When I had my first magazine job and I was being top edited, I was very defensive and I would get upset very quickly because I was upset with myself for not being perfect. But yeah, it was definitely a process.
00:52:36
Speaker
And when you say, for people who might not know, being top edited, is that when you pass it to an editor above you? Oh yeah, so like I would be the assigning editor on a story, I would get it in, I would make my edits, I might go back and forth with the writer a little bit, and then I would send it to the top editor who was kind of like that last, you know, set of eyes before it would go into production. And usually, you know, that was like,
00:53:00
Speaker
know, the executive editor or someone like super high up and, you know, they were sort of inherently intimidating and they knew they knew all the things and I obviously did not. And, you know, yeah, it was those are those. So that's how that works where we do it a little different. We've done it a little differently in our team, my features team now where
00:53:23
Speaker
I tried initially to make it a little bit more egalitarian where it was like we could all top edit each other. It was really more about having that second set of eyes. It didn't necessarily have to be a person who was like higher on the masthead or whatever.
00:53:39
Speaker
For when you're offering feedback to writers, and I could preface this too by saying a lot of people, their hackles will kind of go up and get a little defensive. So how have you navigated the feedback part of your job to have a fruitful dialogue in service of the piece? So again, it comes back to the relationship.
00:54:06
Speaker
you know, I try to be really sensitive. You know, I used to, earlier in my career, you know, get very frustrated when a writer would not like, would not take my suggestion or would not like listen to what I had to say, or now if, you know, when that happens, I, you know, I want to talk about it with them and we talk it through. And, you know, I feel like I never want to force
00:54:35
Speaker
a change or ultimately if the writer really feels strongly about something, that's fine. There have been times, I don't know, it's just like, but again, it's like the relationship. It's just like how you deliver the feedback, instead of saying, this doesn't work, do this. There's a way to deliver it in a way that's like,
00:55:05
Speaker
just more sensitive, like, you know, this is this, this isn't feeling quite right. You know, would you consider trying something like this? Or, you know, I think we could use a little bit more emotion here or yeah, it's just like sort of like a gentle, gentle wording. What did you do when you heard that Mitchell had won the Pulitzer for the for that for that piece?
00:55:30
Speaker
Well, let me just, can I like take a few minutes just to talk about that whole Pulitzer thing? Sure. Please. So I did not know that you could submit for Pulitzers. Like I thought that they were just handed down from on high. Right. I just just plucked. Yeah. Like the MacArthur, you know, and I, you know, we had submitted for national magazine awards, obviously, but like.
00:55:56
Speaker
I never would, it never would have occurred to me to submit for Pulitzer because one, like I've never worked for an organization that like where Pulitzer was even on the radar, you know, like, and I just thought that was for like the New York Times. Right. So Mitchell called me one day and he's like, Hey, a friend of mine asked me if we were going to submit this for a Pulitzer. And I was like, uh, let me check into that. And, um,
00:56:24
Speaker
You know, so I, I checked to see like, if it was going to be okay for us to submit this. And of course I got the okay. And, um, I, you know, submitted it and, you know, there was like, there's like a whole thing you have to fill out and answer a bunch of questions and all this stuff. And, um, submitted Mitchell. I worked on, on it together and, um, but I didn't want to tell anyone really
00:56:51
Speaker
I didn't tell my team, I didn't tell anyone but Bill who's my boss. Because I just was like, if this does not happen, I don't want people to think that I was thinking that big, right? But of course I was obsessively counting the days down until the announcement and
00:57:12
Speaker
So I was watching when it was announced and we had just won the National Magazine Award the day before, which was like, amazing! Like, amazing! And then they announced it and I was just like,
00:57:30
Speaker
I lost my mind and texted Mitchell, congratulations Pulitzer Prize winner. And I think he said he was taking a nap. I think he also knew, but he was trying not to get too obsessed about it. But the beauty of not telling anyone was that everyone was like, what the hell just happened? So it was cool.
00:57:53
Speaker
gonna pop in here for a hot minute for you to see that I for yeah I had to circle back to something with Leah and I regarded Kim Cross's Leon and Noel story for bicycling which Leah helped usher into being the structure is bonkers so if you're trying something of this nature tread lightly or have Leah edit it for you or be Kim Cross two options
00:58:18
Speaker
one of your strengths. Kim's piece was definitely a structure flex.
Palindrome Structure: Risky Creativity
00:58:26
Speaker
So when that comes across your desk, what are you thinking? Well, so I'll preface this by saying that Kim is a really special writer and she just has such a
00:58:41
Speaker
you know, lively and agile mind, so that when she says, I really want to try this like crazy thing, I tend to be like, okay, go for it. But it just sounded when she talked about it, it really, and also I should say that I did not assign this story. This was assigned, I believe, by Bill Strickland and Matt Allen. And
00:59:05
Speaker
So I don't know what the conversations were from the outset about the structure, but by the time it came to me, when Matt was on parental leave, she was she was talking about wanting to try this palindrome structure, which, you know, was because of the two characters in the story.
00:59:25
Speaker
Their names were palindromes of each other. So one of them was named Leon, the other was named Noel. And they met, they did this like, they each had done these separate,
00:59:36
Speaker
you know, across the globe type bike rides and then randomly met in a desert. And it was like, that's what the story is about. And so I could see why she wanted to do the palindrome, but I also was like, yeah, you know, I don't know if it's really necessary. Like there's a lot of really great stuff in this story already, but you know, it was Kim. So I was like, yeah, try it. If you can do it, great. And so she,
01:00:03
Speaker
She actually turned in two versions of the story. One was more chronological and the other was this palindromic structure. And the palindrome version was just really more interesting. And so that's kind of how we did it. What made it more interesting than the more chronological one?
01:00:26
Speaker
In the end, like the palindrome helped sort of set up the stakes a little bit better and the stakes are very, very subtle and you're sort of reading the story and you're kind of like what's happening and then suddenly
01:00:40
Speaker
you realize that this meeting in the desert actually is really important to both of their journeys. And that just didn't come across in the chronological version. You have to understand that she spent, I think she said she spent like five years reporting this story. It was really a feat of reporting, looking through, interviewing each of the,
01:01:07
Speaker
the men and looking through their blog, their travel blogs and, you know, matching events to time stamps on maps and photos and, you know, and she had a lot of, they were fascinating characters and there was a lot of, a lot to get out on the page. And something about, you know, the sort of reversal
01:01:37
Speaker
calendromic structure helped kind of keep it kind of added some tension, I think. When people come to you with stories that might have ambitious structural intentions, I guess what is the nature of the conversations you have if someone does want to perform some degree of structural gymnastics?
01:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's like, isn't that what you kind of want as an editor, you want like, the, the really original thinking, because it's so rare, really, like, especially when it comes to structure. But you know, I don't, people don't come to me that often, honestly, with like, you know, I want to do this crazy structural thing. So yeah, I'm totally into it, you know, but we have to have that conversation of like, let's try it. And if it doesn't work, let's like, rethink.
01:02:36
Speaker
so that expectations are kind of managed. Yeah, and given that you said that Kim had worked on it for that long, it's amazing just to think of the repartorial heft that you have to go through to do that over the course of five years. But it can also be dispiriting for the freelance journalist who's like, well, how the hell do I make a living doing this? For sure.
01:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I think certainly it wasn't like the thing that she worked on constantly for five years. She had other projects. I think she may have been working on a book. But it was like she had to chip away at it. And her writing, she's just so, so thoughtful. Every single word is just very intentional. The more time she has, really, the better.
01:03:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. She's a joy to talk to and I've had her on the show and I've also just had lots of phone conversations with her just talking shop off mics and everything. So when you're having a dialogue with a high-level writer, like is it with an agile mind like hers, what is that, the conversations you're having as you're looking to just tease out what is ultimately going to make the story really leap off the page?
01:04:00
Speaker
I mean, again, I think I said this earlier. It's so different with every writer, but with Kim, for example, she likes to get on the phone a lot and just sort of talk through things. And a lot of editing with Kim is her saying, I'm trying this. What do you think of this? And then me answering.
01:04:21
Speaker
yeah that sounds really cool let's try it or yeah that's just not really I don't really get it or you know and then she'll go back and try again and we just go back and forth with different you know iterations I guess you know with Kim it's like a lot of
01:04:39
Speaker
Mostly confirmation. She's like, am I crazy for wanting to do this? And I'm like, no, it sounds great. Or maybe that might be too much. You might be going down a rabbit hole there that isn't really necessary. And she's grateful for that feedback. That's what she is asking for.
01:04:58
Speaker
She has such a passion for this kind of storytelling, too. It comes off the page, and also when you're talking to her, she's so energized by it. That's got to be energizing for you as a writer, as someone looking to shepherd these pieces to print, that you've got someone like that who is just so into it.
01:05:17
Speaker
Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, it's funny because when I worked with her, she came to visit us at Bicycling shortly after I had started there, which was around 2010, 2011. And she was, I think, just coming off of a job at a magazine. I think it was Southern Living as an editor there. And she wanted to, you know, she wanted to start a freelance writing career. And I did not get how ambitious she was. Like, I did not, you know,
01:05:47
Speaker
I mean, I think she probably said like, I want to do long form narratives. And I was like, yeah, yeah, here's like a 200 word piece on something that you can do. And and she was like, you know, a really solid, you know, writer for me, she did a regular section of the magazine that I edited.
01:06:05
Speaker
But I also wasn't editing long form at that time. And so she did that for a little while, and she pitched a really great idea to me about a program in a prison in California where inmates restore bikes, and then they're donated to families in need in the community. And she wanted to profile this
01:06:31
Speaker
one inmate who had benefited from the program and it was an amazing pitch. Her pitches are incredible. She just really has a sense of what she wants the story to be and what it can be. So she had this great pitch and it was about this idea of transformation and how the bikes
01:06:52
Speaker
changed two lives in this case and she went off to write it and I'm sure she'll be okay with me telling the story. She went off to write it and she was asking me a lot of questions via email about like a specific bike that we could feature in the story that was in
01:07:07
Speaker
the like little workshop that this guy you know worked in at the prison and so I was like yeah yeah sure that red bike is fine you know and she's like yeah it looks kind of like a Schwinn Stingray and it's like it's really cool looking I'm like yeah yeah yeah let's do it that's great okay it'll look good in the pictures and then she turned in her draft and it was it was all about the bike
01:07:28
Speaker
And it wasn't about the program or the guy. And I was like, oh, no, I'm going to have to tell her that this isn't what I was expecting. And it was kind of hard for us to both come to grips with. She had gotten really excited about the bike and wanted to write about it and wrote about it. And the rest of the story fell away. And it just wasn't the story that
01:07:55
Speaker
I wanted, so we had to kind of start over on that and that was tricky for us, but she ended up producing a really, really great story.
01:08:02
Speaker
Yeah, how do writer and editor rebound from something that is maybe strike one and strike two. It's a full count and it's like, okay, here's our chance. We got to get this right here and not get dispirited and actually be able to forge ahead. I think it was dispiriting for both of us if I'm being honest. I know it was.
01:08:26
Speaker
It was really hard to get that story kind of to a place where we were both happy with it. I think that she needed to take a break from it. I kind of had to put it aside. But when we came back to it, we communicated much better about it. And she checked in a lot, and I made sure to check in and make sure that we were still on the same page.
01:08:50
Speaker
And you know then afterwards we, you know I reached out to her and I was like hey listen I'm really sorry about how that happened. Let's talk about it and we talked about it and it was, I think it was really like a growth moment for me for sure. Just in terms of like how to check in on writers and why.
01:09:09
Speaker
So. Right. Yeah. And it always just gets to the point of how being of that skill of the soft skills of learning each individual person and be like, this is how this person takes. OK, I can crack the whip on this one. This one might need something different. And it's like, yeah, you feel that out. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just you know, we have a great relationship and you know, she she is just you know, I just I'm overjoyed when I get to work with her.
01:09:39
Speaker
So, and I'm working with her on something now, so I'm pretty excited about that too.
01:09:43
Speaker
And what's great about a skilled editor is that they can see things that the writer can't see. And to make the job, let's just say, of the editor a little easier so there's more bandwidth to focus on, you know, just other more high-concept things. You know, what might you suggest or recommend to a writer just to be a better writer-editor so, you know, that they were starting to meet each other on a higher plane?
01:10:13
Speaker
I do try to talk about beforehand when making the assignment, things like tension and structure. And I try to plant those ideas to a writer that I maybe haven't worked with already or maybe is newer to these kinds of assignments. So I try to talk that through. I also try to give them, not warning so much, but a heads up that
01:10:44
Speaker
You know, producing features is is a process and there may be you know several rounds of edits and you know it's I try to emphasize that it's a collaboration and, you know, so that they're just sort of like ready. They're not taken aback or, you know, like thrown off when, you know,
01:11:02
Speaker
We're moving on to round three and the story's not done yet. Who are some editors that you really admire and draw inspiration from that have put those tools in your toolbox and made you better?
01:11:21
Speaker
Yeah, I can really only talk about the editors that I've worked with. Again, editors are so behind the scenes that I ... I really learned a lot. When I came to bicycling from Women's Health, this is when I came from a
01:11:42
Speaker
culture where it was very much about like the magazine voice and when I went to bicycling it was very much about the individual writer's voice and Dave Howard was on staff there and he really helped me with
01:11:58
Speaker
like how you phrase your notes and like how you phrase your edits and like that there was a way of like asking for something that wasn't going to raise a writer's hackles. I really credit him with a lot of all that kind of basic stuff. And then Bill Strickland who was the editor-in-chief
01:12:19
Speaker
At one point when I was there, at that point I had been starting to edit more long-form stories. I did not know what I was doing at all. This was the phase where I was figuring it out. One time he just sat me down and explained things like,
01:12:40
Speaker
I mean, this is embarrassing to even admit, but like exposition, you're like, I did not go to school for this. And even though this is stuff that you learn in like English class in high school, like I just didn't, I didn't take it in at that time. And, um, you know, so he like sat me down and taught me some of the, like the basics.
01:12:59
Speaker
And that was helpful. I mean, he didn't have to do that really more than once. I was at a point where I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I get it. But when I first started editing features, I remember Googling how to edit features, which of course there's really no answer to. That's another story.
01:13:19
Speaker
That's cool. Well, it's it's one of those things to where you probably like implicitly knew or instinctually knew what exposition was without the name on it I know it kind of to me I kind of had to figure that out on my own like when someone's oh, this is too expository. I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Yeah, I knew yeah, I just didn't understand like at the time like
01:13:40
Speaker
the pattern in a story of the exposition versus the scene setting. I knew when I read it what tension was. I knew what it felt like, but I didn't know actually how to make it happen.
01:13:56
Speaker
Well, that's so hard too. It's it's hard to like you were saying a ways back in our conversation about not like having a hard time trying to articulate what you That feeling and it is hard. It's like you can't there isn't a formula it just has to I know you almost have to just implicitly know how to Feel it out. It is like very Jedi. Yeah.
Intuitive Editing: A Jedi Skill
01:14:18
Speaker
Well, that's what like at that time, you know
01:14:22
Speaker
That's when I realized that I did not know how to, I couldn't really say what I was doing, but there was this Jedi quality to just, I would be able to sit there and it would come to me. And I didn't know how or why, but it would come to me eventually. And I knew when it was right, I could tell. Yeah.
01:14:44
Speaker
Yeah, and do you find, well, being mindful of your time, I only got a couple more things for you here as we're coming up on an hour. I know that what's helped me, and I've read this elsewhere also, which is kind of validating, is when you were looking to find balance in a piece, sometimes printing it out and highlighting things. I'll highlight scenes green, because it feels like green means go. Exposition to me is yellow, because it's kind of a slowdown.
01:15:13
Speaker
And then I say red is dialogue, so red and said rhyme. And I like seeing these colors. And then it's like, if you see it from a distance, I don't have to lean back from my microphone to do that. But yeah, from a distance, you're like, oh, I can see, oh, wow, there's a lot of yellow there. Let's try to sprinkle this out throughout the whole thing. It really helps to see it visually. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I haven't done that level of highlighting.
01:15:42
Speaker
But I have done similar, I've also like literally printed out stories and cut them up and pasted them, like taped them on the wall and just to see how it would flow. For some reason I needed to do it that way. Like I couldn't just like make a copy of the document and like do it. I had to do it and actually see it on the wall.
01:16:08
Speaker
And writers have sent me, like Kim Kross sent me a picture of all of her note cards out on the floor that she was working on a story for me. And yeah, sometimes you just need to take a step back and look at it all.
01:16:26
Speaker
What is, you know, where's the juice for you and what still just really excites you about the work you're doing, you know, behind the scenes and yeah, where's the juice? I mean, I just like, I kind of alluded to this before, but I just, I love that feeling of like knowing, knowing the piece has like gelled in the right way, you know, or doing something like really original and knowing that it,
01:16:56
Speaker
works. It's really satisfying. And, you know, there's, you know, there's something to be said for like the day that you publish a story and like all that feeling of like everybody looking at it or commenting.
The Satisfaction of Story Completion
01:17:09
Speaker
But it's really more it's kind of like before that, just that feeling of like, we got it right. It doesn't sometimes that doesn't happen. But most of the time it does. Yeah.
01:17:20
Speaker
I think that kind of checks the boxes. In our conversation yesterday, too, was there anything that I missed that you were like, oh, that would be good to talk about? I was hoping he would ask me about that, and he didn't. I wonder if there's anything that you'd like to add to the conversation we've been having. I don't know. I mean, I could talk.
01:17:43
Speaker
It's weird. I sometimes feel like it's really hard for me to articulate how I do this job because I'm just in it and doing it and I don't really think about the process while I'm doing it. Yeah. And then other times I'm like, I could talk about this forever. Just ask me about any story I've worked on. But yeah, I don't know.
01:18:09
Speaker
Not really. One thing I know that you didn't ask me, you did not ask me for the recommendation.
01:18:14
Speaker
Oh, you know why I didn't? Why? I didn't prime the pump for you. Oh. And usually I don't like to catch people flat footed. Sometimes I do. But since you brought it up, do you have a recommendation for the listeners? I do have a recommendation because, of course, I thought about it beforehand because I knew you were going to ask. But it's almost like it's almost embarrassing. And it's like so on the nose to be on a podcast and recommend this.
01:18:41
Speaker
But I'm just going to recommend it. I'm going to sound like a podcast ad. But my sister gifted me a free HelloFresh meal box.
01:18:54
Speaker
Use promo code CNFOD20. And I first was skeptical and then I was like, well, you know, I'll try it. It's a free box. And we ordered three meals and it was really fun and they were really delicious. And I just like, I don't know if it's the pandemic or just the busyness of life, but we've just gotten into a rut in terms of
01:19:19
Speaker
cooking and cooking different things like we have the same things that we cook all the time and this just kind of like you're still cooking but it kind of like changes things up and it's like oh yeah this is fun and this is delicious so it's been it's been fun.
01:19:37
Speaker
Nice. Oh, I love it. I love that you brought it up that I didn't ask you, because sometimes I definitely, when it doesn't appear on the show, it's usually because I forgot that when I'm emailing either the publicist or the writer directly, I forget to be like, hey, you know, I like to ask a recommendation for the listeners. And most people don't regularly listen to the show, so they don't even know it's a thing.
01:19:59
Speaker
And so, then sometimes I do, I'll be like, listen, I'm going to catch you flat-footed here, but I tend to, I like to ask the writers for a recommendation for the listeners out there, and it can be anything. And so, well, I'm glad you brought it up, because that's really cool. I think it's a fun grace note to end the conversation. It is, it's fun, yeah.
01:20:20
Speaker
That's amazing. That's so cool. Well, Leah, this is so great to talk shop and get a little sense of what it's like to be on the other side of the exchange. So often we talk to the writers, but it's great to pick your brain and how you go about your craft, because it is a craft. And so this is so great to talk to you about this, and I really appreciate the time. So thank you so much, Leah. Absolutely. Thanks for reaching out.
01:20:50
Speaker
Oh, you made it to the end. I like it when that happens. That was a journey, CNFers. What a journey. Good one. Lots of detours, rest areas with clean bathrooms, fully stocked vending machines, no weirdos in sight. Great maps. You are here.
01:21:07
Speaker
I tell you, nothing more dispiriting than seeing a You Are Here... arrow, unlike the westernmost edge of Iowa, and you feel like you've been in Iowa for six hours, and you're like, God damn it, this state is huge. And you're like, damn, it never ends. At least there are windmills there and shit. Subscribe to the show wherever.
01:21:30
Speaker
You get your podcasts, we're everywhere, seeing efforts, and if you have a moment, leave a kind review on Apple Podcasts or a rating on Spotify, or wherever you podcast. If there are reviews to be had, I will have them.
01:21:45
Speaker
You know how things just pop into your head? I don't know how this thought came to mind, but it did. Then I captured that shit. I did it. I wrote it down. I didn't forget it. So I could riff about it here. Many of us are probably frustrated by our writing paths and careers. I won't presume, but I would say that many of us are. I won't speak for everyone, like I said. But I come from a... I can speak from that place often.
01:22:09
Speaker
Writing in a lot of ways is kind of like a golf swing. Not that I play golf, but I know the basics and I used to kind of play a little until it just got too frustrating and I gave up and whatever. When you start swinging, shit, it's awful.
01:22:23
Speaker
But you show up and you show up and suddenly things get better, but it's by no means mastered, right? And even when you get good at golf, wouldn't know, you still spray the ball all over the place. Point is, writing is a lot like learning to hit a golf ball. You don't magically become good after being unskilled. It's gradual, it's glacial, tectonic.
01:22:51
Speaker
Eventually, though, through sheer repetition and maybe some lessons, you start making more good shots than bad, but it's not instant. It just kinda sorta happens over time, like a mountain growing by a centimeter every year.
01:23:10
Speaker
Maybe what we need is a more geologic sense of time when it comes to our shout out to Ruby McConnell, our geologist, resident geologist here at CNF Pod. Takes time. But we either don't want to put the time in or we're impatient and we want it now. And it's natural to think that. Our time is so finite that you, and the older you get, obviously, it's just like, you know, I feel like I've got like 30 years left to like live.
01:23:39
Speaker
And what does that mean for the work I've yet to even accomplish? It's dispiriting, and you start to feel the crunch of time. Speaking from experience, the things I want now, like I wanted when I was 29. I still haven't done shit. And the thing is, 29-year-old me would not have been capable of handling, I don't know,
01:24:01
Speaker
any degree of visibility. I'm not even sure a 41 year old me can handle it, but at least I know better. Point being, if you look back at what you wrote, let's say 10 years ago and you've been writing regularly since, you'll notice a change for the better. No doubt about it. All those things you submitted and got rejected
01:24:21
Speaker
and you were devastated at the time and felt slighted at the time. Now if you see that and you go back and read it, you'll be like, my God, I'm glad that car rejected. And so we plot on getting just a little bit better until we're making more better shots than bad shots. Make no mistake, most of your riding will still be buried in the rough, am I right? Now I know you got it in and you see an effort, so stay wild. And if you can't do, interview, see ya.
01:25:18
Speaker
you