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Crafting Experiences Through Gamification (ft. Glenn Gillis)
52 Plays7 months ago
This episode dives deep into the loyalty game with Glenn Gillis, Co-founder and CEO of Sea Monster Entertainment. This episode builds on our gamification discussions, as we discover the methods of creating authentic experiences by gamifying your program. We also speak on the importance of utilizing loyalty data for gamification.
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Transcript
Introduction to Personalized Loyalty
00:00:10
Speaker
Get Personal with Loyalty, where we're discussing using loyalty to deliver personalized, relevant customer experiences. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the next edition of Get Personal with Loyalty.
Impact of Gamification on Loyalty
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm here today with Glenn Gillis, co-founder and CEO of Seamonster. Hi, Glenn. Hi, thank you, Erin. Thank you so much for having me, and what a great opportunity to talk about something that's clearly close to both of our hearts. Yes, gamification.
00:00:39
Speaker
Games make everything better, don't they? I think so. I'm really excited to have the conversation. I think there's so much we can do adding those into strategies, whether with loyalty or without.
Glenn Gillis's Journey and Storytelling in Business
00:00:51
Speaker
But let's start with getting a little bit about, a little background about you. What, how did, how did you get here?
00:00:57
Speaker
I was born a long time ago. It was life changing. No, I'm just kidding. I kind of fell into the animation industry to start with. I'm the business person coming in to fix businesses. I'm not a frustrated.
00:01:10
Speaker
animator, game designer, form director. I didn't have that story in me, but I really love using the power of creative to drive business results and social change, actually. And so, yeah, I ran an animation business kind of by mistake of two years making TV series for Disney. And then I realized that my training is as a strategic marketer. And so I realized that, hang on, companies are sitting with all this insight about what they call user personas.
00:01:40
Speaker
But hang on, can't we use those personas to turn those into stories? And then we know how to do that in an industrial scale because of the animation business. And so everybody's on the Euro's journey. What does that look
Creating Hero Journeys for Clients
00:01:54
Speaker
like? And what's better than that?
00:01:55
Speaker
Story is the story that you have agency in, which is really one of the definitions of the game. And so over the last 13 years, we've been using the power of games to drive business and social outcomes for large organizations around the world. So interesting. Let's go deeper on that. Tell us about Sea Monster, which is an interesting name as well.
00:02:18
Speaker
Assuming you're building hero journeys for clients, I'd love to understand what that means as well. Absolutely. So maybe the background story to Sea Monster, you know, maps of old where we didn't know what was over the horizon, we'd kind of put dragons and sea monsters inside.
00:02:34
Speaker
And then, of course, a few brave souls went over and realized that, actually, the monsters are not that scary. It's a bit weird. Monsters are taught. And actually, we're part of a small round world. And that's something that really inspires what we do here. People are connected. People want to be connected and certainly want to be connected to something bigger than themselves.
Engagement and Community Building Through Games
00:02:53
Speaker
And I think that's something that you and I probably share in common when we talk about the difference between loyalty and rewards.
00:03:00
Speaker
So what we do is we're really a game company in the marketing space rather than sort of gamification. And we're going to talk about that shortly, I'm sure. But, you know, games got rules, gives you feedback, it has goals, and it's and it's typically voluntary, which is a really, really powerful idea. You know, if you think most marketing is actually not voluntary, they're actually interrupting something we'd rather be doing ads or
00:03:28
Speaker
you know, the first thing i do on spotify is pay a subscription to get rid of ads so so we're we we've driven by this idea of really putting the user at the center of the experience so we work with large banks and insurance companies for example you know it's it's
00:03:45
Speaker
Nobody wakes up in the morning wanting to budget and it's like you know maybe there are a few people but i don't know any of them this idea that the bank is a custodian of future orientation delayed gratification all of these ideas so we build games in roblox where will teach entrepreneurship and you'll know this being an entrepreneur yourself as well.
Gaming Demographics and Strategic Objectives
00:04:10
Speaker
that it's not something you can learn from a book, but this idea of trying different strategies and being resilient and so on. So that's one of the things that we do. But probably one of the biggest single stereotypes that we have is that gaming is for two teenagers sitting in there and depends on their mother's couch. Apologies for that visual if you're having dinner while you listen to this. But it's absolutely not supported by the data. So one of the fastest growing gaming sectors in the world is actually 65-year-old men.
00:04:39
Speaker
One of the richest scenes of gamers in the world is 35 to 55 year old woman, the Candy Crush generation. So 2.6 billion people around the world are gaming on a regular basis.
Customer Insights from Games
00:04:52
Speaker
And so we work with brands, retailers, banks,
00:04:57
Speaker
public benefit organizations around the environment, et cetera, to think about how we could use a game to drive a strategic objective for them and lots of benefits accrue during that process. I hope I answered some of your questions. It does, and I think it creates a whole lot more. I love what you're talking about. So you take all the gaming pieces and now you're applying them to organizations and how an organization can better engage their customer.
00:05:27
Speaker
is what I'm hearing essentially. Engage them, train them, teach them. There's a variety of objectives perhaps that you're covering. Maybe that's a good place to go. When you're talking to a new client or when a client comes to you, what is attracting them to you and what objectives are they typically trying to solve?
Enhancing Experiences and Community with Games
00:05:46
Speaker
So like everybody they want more data and they want more insights on their customer and if you think about it you know regulations around the world are more and more moving to try and protect us as individuals that our information should not be used against us, your area of expertise in many ways.
00:06:06
Speaker
But what I am happy to do as a person is kind of get into this exchange of if you value my time, not just my purchase, my time, and I am happy to share some of that information with you so that I can get a richer experience. And if you think about the essence of shopping, that's kind of what it is. Yeah, it's great when I get to the tool, but it's actually an experience. So the point is how do you bring that into the digital space?
00:06:33
Speaker
and yes social media is one thing which is really a shouty and then noisy and messy and is my information really not being used against me is it really okay so that's what a game gives us and so we will work with the heads of data the heads of loyalty and customers to enrich their view of the customer we'll work with the the cmo's to say how do i really grow my community you know not just
00:07:02
Speaker
reacquire my own users every Monday morning, like it's the first day of my life and, you know, pay third party platforms who shall remain nameless, you know, Facebook, Google to give them the zero and first party data.
Cost-Effectiveness and Scalability of Games
00:07:17
Speaker
I'm not saying you don't need them. Of course we need to be on them. But how can I start to
00:07:21
Speaker
to build more of that kind of community feel. And that's what games allow us to do. Absolutely, they do it. And no other genre comes close to putting a user at the center of that marketing experience, all learning experience, and then enriching that experience for them. And it is so cost effective to do at scale.
00:07:43
Speaker
So people say, oh, times are tough. Everyone's slashing budgets. I'm like, great. We're not going to be 5% cheaper than your alternative. We're going to be 80% cheaper. But we're going to have to do it at some scale before you get the benefits of a community who wants to come back and re-engage with your experience.
00:08:03
Speaker
We'll create games where people come back four, eight, 10, 15 times on their own. No remarketing, no reacquisition. Why? Because we're valuing their time. So yeah, it's CMOs, heads of data, heads of loyalty, and there's not really a marketing problem that we don't think we could add value to.
Storytelling in Games for Brand Connection
00:08:24
Speaker
Okay, interesting. So now I have more questions for you too, because now you talked about
00:08:29
Speaker
So objectives that you're covering, it was data as a real key. Obviously, everybody wants data. I still think we believe that he who owns the most data wins. That makes sense. More data than I can use it to be able to really engage my customers further, bring them back and make more impact on my bottom line. You talk a lot. You've heard you say community a number of times.
00:08:51
Speaker
How, how does this drive community? I'm probably getting, drilling us into being a little bit more tactical here. If I think about the way a game could be, and as you, if you're valuing my time, maybe I'm going, taking some challenges. Am I also interacting with others? Is that part of what needs to happen? Or just because I'm interacting with the game in conjunction with the brand.
00:09:18
Speaker
I'm feeling connected to the brand and that's my community or is it both? Sure. I've got more questions for you because this is really your area of expertise. I'd like very happy to have this conversation. Let me say, let me answer it this way.
00:09:34
Speaker
You're right. The person with the most data wins. Actually, that's not right. The person with the most actionable insights wins. And that's firmly in your wheelhouse. Actually, well, hold on. That's also only a step in the right direction. The point is, can I nudge a behavior change in the real world? Whether that's digital or physical, I need my customer to do something that they wouldn't do before.
Nestle's Minecraft Example
00:10:02
Speaker
And yes, I can use that information, and I must, to drive the bottom line. But let's take an example of a big brand. They are competing against the retailer who has them. They're selling baked beans. Now, I can go to Walmart, and I can buy them for $5, whatever it is, the house brand. And because Walmart has got such complete data about me,
00:10:30
Speaker
and the power that they bring to the table, they will win the pricing game every day. So you, Mr. known brand, is charging me a premium. Why? Well, wait, I've got a story to tell you about farm to fork or small scale farmers or how we care about that.
00:10:49
Speaker
What's built into your brand premium is this knowledge that you have, this thing that's important to you. And if you can share that back with me as a customer in a way that is interesting and relevant to me, then we're starting to really get into the thing that will drive long-term value as well as short-term business results.
Playable Advertising for Deep Engagement
00:11:09
Speaker
The question is, where do you do that?
00:11:12
Speaker
is it going to be a second on tiktok or instagram flashing things is it going to be mails that i'm going to get that says buy one get one free well that's the opposite it's not the opposite of what we need but it's not where you're going to create an experience so necessarily reached recently launched a experience on minecraft
00:11:31
Speaker
where they took their commitments to what are called the Sustainable Development Goals, basically a shopping list of the world's problems, and said, look, this is how we're activating recycling, and these are the things that are important to us, and they brought that through a game. We're talking about hours of dwell time where customers are showing up, wanting to engage, learn from that experience. That's brand equity in a modern sense, and that's the thing that's going to create real
00:12:00
Speaker
incremental value over time, not a race to figure out who can give the most personalized discounts to somebody.
Motivation Balance in Gamification
00:12:06
Speaker
So thank you for that. And to dig into that example, again, to try to get us a little more tactical for people listening, like, well, what, what does this mean? And how can I apply it to my, my own organization? So this example you just gave with Nestle and Minecraft, it's, it's a game I can play while I'm playing it. I'm learning all about the sustainability, all of these great things that Nestle is doing for
00:12:29
Speaker
the planet and all of us and how we're gonna be more healthy and all that great kind of thing. Is the, I guess, what do I get is one of my questions. And do they tie in things like purchases to it? Or is it truly this engagement and learning and then transactions happen somewhere else?
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah, so that's a great question. And absolutely, you know, one of the big things about a game and therefore by extension gamification, which is really the use of game knowledge principles, etc., in a non-game context, is this idea of getting the balance right between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. That's the, you know, it's a big thing. And so, yes, I do need
00:13:27
Speaker
my reward in the real world. I need that cash off. And I need those things. But those things, as we've saying, are expensive and relatively short term. And if you don't offer it to me next week, I'm not your friend anymore. That's rewards, not loyalty. So if I can unlock the intrinsic element of that as well, which is really around this brand purpose,
00:13:49
Speaker
So that's a gamification principle right there, balance, extrinsic and intrinsic. But you're asking a question, what does this actually look like? We've developed a platform, there's going to be an explosion in a new category and it's called playable advertising or some version of that. And that's because of the fragmentation of media. And this is a very good, easy, quick, relatively cheap way for brands to start. They always start with the why.
00:14:19
Speaker
Don't tell us what you want to do. Tell us why you're doing it. I would guess that you start with your customers on exactly the same basis. I have to understand what the big lever that you're really trying to pull, and then let's work backwards from there. What this platform does is it's a white label platform, can be reskinned, it can hook up into your whole loyalty card, works within the CRM, so all of the stuff that we both know how to do.
00:14:45
Speaker
And all it does is really to start to value customers. It says, yeah, watch this video, play this game, do a quiz, do this kind of thing. And as you're engaging with the bread, I'm going to reward your time. At the end of this process, I might have 100 coins. Now, what do you want to do with those coins? Would you like to enter into a competition? Would you like a voucher? You choose, so you have agency in that decision.
00:15:14
Speaker
How many big companies are still running competitions, which are essentially rewarding their luckiest customer? Surely what we should be doing is rewarding the most engaged customer. So we've got a like touch way to run a campaign that links the real and the digital world, both from an engagement perspective and a reward perspective. In other words, what would you like? And these things can be deployed in a matter of weeks.
00:15:40
Speaker
So that's a good practical way for companies to start and it can be anything from a retailer to a bank. It can be a very sophisticated modern form of lead jet because if I've taught you about budgeting and this and that and I've taken you and watched your quiz and your life stage, I'm getting some information from you, I'm rewarding you for that information, boom, would you like to speak to somebody and off we go into the rest
Marriott's Game for Investor Communication
00:16:06
Speaker
of the funnel.
00:16:06
Speaker
Games are the way to build scalable solutions in the consideration phase of the funnel, and there are not many things that can do that. As I think it also builds advocacy early, too. So if somebody's doing this and having a fun experience, they're going to go, oh, they're going to tell their friends, oh, come here, engage, this is really fun, whatever, and then form introduction to a new brand.
00:16:35
Speaker
I was going to ask you which verticals do you see this working in and are there some verticals that you may not fit as well, but you mentioned a handful already that I was kind of skeptical about, so I don't know that we need to go there again, but we can.
00:16:52
Speaker
And where I think I want to dig, though, is kind of what something you just said there was more around led my mind to be to be. And so are where you're looking at it from a consumer perspective, I think to engage in the games because you get the value and time when I'm in my personal life, I can make those choices. But if I am a business to business selling,
00:17:18
Speaker
Would, do you see opportunity for the more gamified experiences for B2B as well? Absolutely. And I think the reason for those other, the set, you know, we just call them humans. And whether they are, you know, whether they're internal, external, you know, people, people, migrant people, I'll tell you a very, very quick story. So a company that's not a bad merit to tell a told group,
00:17:48
Speaker
What Marriott does is they're a hotel company, but actually they're an asset management company. So we helped them do a pitch to a big bunch of bankers who own a bunch of properties and they needed to kind of figure out, so why should we give this work to you to run our hotels? Walked in, there was an iPad in front of them, a little hotel, said five rooms in a week. Opportunity popped in. It says, Aaron, would you like this booking?
00:18:15
Speaker
100 bucks for three nights. How the hell did I know? I better take it. Pop up, pop up, pop up until you're making little decisions about this thing and says, OK, so here we go. You got, I don't know, $10,000 for the week.
00:18:31
Speaker
Great. Bad news, there was $15,000 on the table. If you knew which bookings to take and which rooms to put them in, you've just left $250,000 on the table in this little make-believe
Gamification in B2B Interactions
00:18:44
Speaker
hotel. In that 150-room hotel over a 20-year period, that's US$70 million. Hi, we're from Marriott. We maximise the return on your investment. How may we help?
00:18:54
Speaker
How were you going to get the essence of that value proposition across other than you know two hundred powerpoint slides so we took the essence of the value proposition we distilled it down into an experience.
00:19:09
Speaker
And these are serious bankers, flew in on the company jet. These are like, what do you mean we've got to play a game? And we knew that the chairperson was a game player. So she said, I'm going to play. And everyone suddenly decided, of course, she said, give it back. I'm going to try and give $15,000 in my next round. So that's the thing, where we need to convey a subtle message about your real value proposition in a complex environment.
00:19:36
Speaker
We can't rely on traditional salespeople to do that. It's difficult to scale. It's hard to get right. I go into that. I'm being sold to mindset and I sort of shut down. Whereas this is a very different thing. This is almost you and I kind of playing together. What did you get? What did I get?
00:19:56
Speaker
Where do you think the successful sales going
Employee Engagement via Gamification
00:19:58
Speaker
to be? So again, there's no interaction that can't be made better by gamifying it or bringing a game into it. But of course, I believe that that's what I do. I'm sold. I'm thinking about how we add it to the things that we do on a day to day basis because you yeah, make it fun, make it exciting, create a bit of a challenge and
00:20:22
Speaker
We all, it just taps that competitive nature. We all have, we just can't, we can't, can't deny it. We actually, our team, we just had our sales kickoff meeting a few weeks ago. And one of my biggest takeaways was man, we have a competitive team. So maybe there's been something you could do internally too. Maybe there's, there's how to keep your employees more engaged and learning and making that fun through gamification as well, probably too.
00:20:51
Speaker
And you'll know this from your experience in loyalty as well. You only need to get it marginally better than everybody else to win.
00:21:00
Speaker
It's not like we need an ideal state here. But again, if the alternative is, you know, like a bland commission structure, that's an expensive thing. It's tricky to maintain. Yes, you need the extrinsic. But if you can say, listen, if you join Annette's cloud, we're going to be part of something bigger. You know, we're changing this industry. Join me on my blah, blah, blah, you know.
00:21:24
Speaker
all of us have to sell the source. That's an intrinsic, that's epic meaning. That's them being on their euros journey. That's gamification applied total cost zero.
Differentiating Brands in a Commoditized Market
00:21:36
Speaker
I knew I would enjoy this conversation and gamification to people, it's a big word. I think to a lot of people that why I wanted to have the conversation is a lot of people that we're talking to are thinking they're adding gamification with like spin and wins.
00:21:53
Speaker
don't think there's a place for that and through the holidays, I could spin and win and get a discount if I gave you my email. So again, nice to collect certain amount of data, but everything that we're talking about here and kind of where you just got us to is adding in this layer of gamification
00:22:11
Speaker
can really build excitement, it can really create that emotional connection, obviously done the way you're talking about, you're educating people even more. And I've always thought that loyalty can help differentiate in a more commoditized world, but layering in the games where you're talking about it just takes one more level. I don't know if deeper is the right way to say, but it just
00:22:36
Speaker
Takes you that much further in your ability to create something that's unique because if I'm also hearing it's really all about your brand you want to be connected back to your brand.
00:22:49
Speaker
What are, to the Nestle example, what are you doing to be sustainable? What are you doing to make my life better? How are you going to make me more healthy? There's all these things that all of us are concerned about now. Now I can really stand behind this brand better than I ever knew before. And I think so many organizations are having difficulty now, especially if you look at like what's called just general retail, especially here in the States apparel. There's so many like mid-market
00:23:19
Speaker
companies, market brands that have just lost who they are. And they all look the same, but they all started for a reason and they were all unique at one point. I think this could really help them get back to their roots and be able to get that message out to your
Unique Experiences Through Gamification
00:23:35
Speaker
point. And you're probably just going, yes, Aaron, we've talked for a half an hour and you finally get it. No, not at all. No, not at all. No, I've been doing this for 30 years and every day is a revelation to me. All I was saying is, I mean, yeah,
00:23:49
Speaker
you know the playfulness of learning is something that we're doing and what we're doing here is we're co-discovering oh look I can do this or this you know which great I think also brings a bit of excitement but as you were talking about the clothing retailers I thought yeah there's everybody and then there's Patagonia you know I mean there's an example where that's just purpose led and you know no Black Friday nonsense from them
00:24:14
Speaker
But look at the loyalty behind that brand, you know. So we're really big advance of them. I just want to reflect back a couple of things that I'm hearing you that I'm, you know, the spin on wind's fine. You've got to start somewhere. But if I can get you to engage and lean forward and then experience.
00:24:33
Speaker
and earn that reward rather than win it. I think we activate a different part of the brain. We did one for a big clothing retailer. It's ridiculous. We got a 95% voucher redemption rate. And the vouchers were like $5 or $10. It was like not even big. And they're like, what happened there? Because I think their previous record was like 30% or 40%.
00:25:01
Speaker
uh and the answer is people worked to get their voucher or they worked to get their points and then they they chose to convert it into a voucher so I think you activate a very different part of the brain and and and that's the essence of exactly what you were saying is the rest of it just fades into the background you know when
00:25:21
Speaker
noise instagram blah blah blah emails texts you know but but the moment you do something that is like okay i'm engaging with it i think that focus that that time that we value that that we should value because time is is all we have you know so
00:25:40
Speaker
Well, it's that investment of that time, if that's what I'm hearing you say, that you've made the commitment to invest, and now because you did that, you want to make sure you get something for that. Exactly. And you're more likely to go to that next level or take that next step because you're committed and you're invested. That's super interesting. And now, 100%, and now I walk into the room.
00:26:08
Speaker
or I arrive at the retail and it says, hi, Aaron, he has your personalized voucher. Well, I've got
Commitment to Gamification for Relationships
00:26:15
Speaker
you. I've got the best of extrinsic motivation using the science of data to drive the reward system, but at the same time using the best of this new way of thinking to drive intrinsic purpose-driven stuff at massive scale. And the two of them can have each other's children and, you know, that'll be great. There you go.
00:26:38
Speaker
This has been super interesting to me. I learned a lot, so thank you. As people listen to this, as they're thinking about it and thinking about wanting to potentially go down this path, what's some guidance? What should they evaluate or what should they do to determine this is the right path for organization? It seems like this is also something like loyalty that you really need to commit to.
Starting with Gamification: Tips and Myths
00:27:06
Speaker
Oh, I can just, again, throw out a spinning wind for a month and see what happens and pull it back down. It really feels like if you're going to go to true game of fight experiences, you really need to commit as a brand to this, right? To the customer that you really need to have that sustained relationship then. Is that accurate?
00:27:28
Speaker
I think two main reasons. One is you must be clear on your why. You don't need to be crystal clear coming in, because if you work with somebody who knows what they're doing, we will co-create that why, but you've got to be relatively clear on why you do this. I think the other word that comes to mind is you've got to be authentic, because I can't pretend to be something that I'm not.
00:27:54
Speaker
you know, this is a big thing. We've seen the decline and trust over the last 50 years in brands and corporates and governments and things. So you've got to be you, okay? You've got to really be you and then you've got to hope with that. So there are people. This is a new-ish category. Games have been around. The entertainment gaming industry, as you know, is already bigger than publishing and movies and all of music altogether.
00:28:21
Speaker
But the use of these games in this area, that's relatively new. But there are great companies around the world. We know of about 30 to 50 or so. If you follow Roblox, for example, you'll see a lot of the work that they're doing is now with those brands. We're here. Always happy to talk. Sorry for the cheap pants.
00:28:43
Speaker
But yeah, just talk to somebody who knows what they're doing and be careful to talk to somebody who doesn't. And you know, absolutely no disrespect to like the ad or digital agencies. But this is a different thing. And I think you might have experienced that in the early days of loyalty.
00:29:00
Speaker
I can build a CRM, I can do this kind of thing. But actually, it's a really specialized thing. So I would say keep your generalists, keep your strategists, but then bring the specialists in. And yeah, they are out there, and there's some pretty good guys. And it doesn't need to cost a ton of money to do, but it does require a scientific test and learn approach, because we never put out something that's perfect. We put out something that's good enough, and because the customer is going to tell us.
00:29:28
Speaker
and then that data informs their thoughts and off we go. Sure, it's iterative, just like loyalty. We can build a strategy best that we know, but we also know that customers will tell us one thing.
00:29:41
Speaker
and they will behave a different way, undoubtedly. So you gotta be ready to do it. The humans. Yes, we are. Always unpredictable. Well, this has been a fabulous conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time and for educating me and our audience. As we move to wrap up, any final thoughts, any guidance you'd like to share that you haven't already?
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to say thank you to you and to Amex Cloud generally. I think it is really forward-thinking companies like yours that are thinking about the future of loyalty and what that looks like. So thank you so much and really grateful for the opportunity.
00:30:22
Speaker
My biggest tip is just start. This is not something you can learn from a book or have a bunch of consultants come in and do. It's not scary. It doesn't need to cross the earth. But just commit to it. Be pure on your intent. Be willing to learn. Because I can tell you, your competitors already are. And they're ways to implement this at a community small scale for a
00:30:45
Speaker
a small business and their ways to do this at massive scale across the globe. So there's no reason not to start, except.
00:30:54
Speaker
the barriers in your mind about what this looks like. And it's an exciting thing because what you're going to do is you're going to get into a two-way conversation, not necessarily a channel per se, but what's interesting to you, what's interesting to me. And I think that often we see that really unlocks a re-belief in the purpose of the business that you chose to work for. So it has this benefit of saying, oh, right, that's why we exist. And so, yeah, just start.
00:31:23
Speaker
It's not, it's not a scary world.
Contact SeaMonster for Gamification Services
00:31:25
Speaker
They're not sea monsters over the edge of the world. You know what I mean? There's sea monsters over in your mind. There you go. You're the good sea monsters that are going to have to get there. Awesome.
00:31:39
Speaker
People enjoy the conversation. How do they get ahold of you and learn more? SeaMonster, one word, .co.za. We are based in South Africa, but we work globally. So yeah, just follow us on any of the channels and delighted to talk to anybody at any time about any of this. Fabulous. Fabulous. Thank you so much, Glenn. Always a pleasure. Always enjoy our conversations. Thank you. Thanks, Erin.
00:32:23
Speaker
Thanks for listening.