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The Stoic Wealth Mindset (Episode 152)
745 Plays1 month ago
Money talks, but what do the Stoics say about it?
In this episode, Caleb and Michael dive into the relationship between Stoicism and wealth. They explore the risks of chasing riches, the virtue of moderation, and why philosophy should come before your bank account.
You'll hear Epictetus' take on why honesty trumps money-making and Seneca's surprising advice on the "shortest cut to riches." The hosts unpack the hidden dangers of comfort and how to avoid them, discuss why obsession with wealth might mean you're missing the point, and offer insights on how to pursue success without sacrificing your values.
Whether you're grinding for that next promotion or living on ramen noodles, this episode will make you rethink your relationship with money. Don't let your wallet own you – tune in and learn how to own your wealth instead.
(00:00) Wealth, Money, and Riches
(05:34) Wisdom From The Stoics
(08:09) When To Pursue Wealth
(14:39) Risks of Wealth
(20:20) You Always Need More
(25:41) Stoic Capitalism
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoicism and Wealth
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Stoic Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombone. And today we're going to be talking about stoicism and wealth. Do a quick discussion on some of the ah stoic ideas about, you know, sort of the Benway, we want way to put it as the benefits and risks of being wealthy and then perhaps also some questions about pursuing wealth.
00:00:33
Speaker
That's it's great. i i've been I've been looking forward to this. it's all All the years of studying stoicism has come down to this moment of, you know, how do I how do i get rich? um yeah How I build build that stoic mindset thank you to achieve yeah intergenerational wealth and such?
Stoic Perspectives on Wealth
00:00:57
Speaker
It's a good, but it is a good topic, right? Because I think it is the thing that, you know, there's lots of disagreements about what the good is. And the Stoics would say this, Epictetus says that famous line about, you know, everybody, everybody pursues the good. It's just people disagree about what the good is. and But I think the thing that cuts across culture as a conception of the good.
00:01:16
Speaker
would be, if not something like pleasure, then probably money. like It is probably the thing the most unanimously understood to be a good or ah desired and pursued. um Not without risks. like I'm not going to say that you know everybody but the Stoics don't see that there's risks to pursuing wealth.
00:01:34
Speaker
um like People recognize the risks, but it's something that almost everybody wants more of or wants to keep. And so understanding how that fits into a stoic picture of the good and a stove picture of a good life in particular, so it's an interesting question. yeah it is't Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think it brings out, it nicely brings out some of these stoic views about indifference. On one hand, you know if you're thinking about how people think about stoicism,
00:02:03
Speaker
Some people do use it sort of as a, they you know, they take the shallow stoic type approach and use it as a way to build a mindset that'll be conducive for them ah to achieve career success, ah financial success, what have you. So you so you do have that.
00:02:24
Speaker
ah side of things, um but you also have in stoicism a lot of, I think, or at least some questioning of that project, questioning the value of wealth to begin with. And at least, you know, in a reaction to that shallow stoicism, there's so sometimes a reaction and again against wealth as such.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, which I think there should be. And there's also this like, um or at least the, at least the hesitation. And we'll get into that in the quotes in a second.
Stoicism in Modern Literature
00:02:58
Speaker
yeah There's also, um there's also just, the you know, we we, we talk about, you, you talk about that idea of.
00:03:07
Speaker
there's the There's some people use a shallow stoicism to develop wealth, but there's also just this explicit connection sometimes. like um There's a book coming out called The Stoic Capitalist. I saw that recently, which is I think is just as explicit as possible, right which is about stoicism as ah as a method of helping you acquire capital.
00:03:25
Speaker
And Caleb, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Scott ah Galloway. I've watched some of his stuff. He has a recent book out. He's an NYU professor of marketing. um And he has a book out, and it's got this this stoic coin on the front. And he has this ah formula for a good life, or I think a formula for success, something like that. And a big part of it is stoicism. But it's not it's not that robust stoicism. It's kind of the pick something you think will be financially, uh, financially successful and then be stoic about it, which is to say, you know, small s kind of stoicism, which is to say, pursue it without being discouraged, pursue it without, uh, having your plans fluctuate, be open for setbacks, anticipate what could go wrong. This kind of conception. So there, there is like this, um, yeah, there is this explicit, I think trying to polo pull stoicism towards this, towards the.
00:04:20
Speaker
pursuit of more material success. um And again, not necessarily a a bad thing. um Everything is about the way it's applied. Everything is about the way it's done. We'll get into that today. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting that ah some of those takes seem a lot more Aristotelian in a way. They're like you should they do take on board some of the stoic teaching ancient Greek teaching around virtue and character at their best. But also there's this essential bit that you should be yeah you know A good life requires some amount of financial success, I think. ah you know That's what I would assume is in Galloway's equation. I don't know if that's true or not, but I would assume something like that's in there. Yeah, just you you want to be successful across – that's the real risk-deterring distinction is that you want to be successful
00:05:08
Speaker
in, in multiple domains and domains that extend beyond your character. So you want to have a great character, but you also want to be rich. You also want to have a nice house. You also want to be well-liked. You also want to be successful. And so it's this extension. I'm not saying Galloway's arguing you should do terrible things to make money and calling it stoicism, but he's saying that, uh, you know, a good life involves success outside of just who you are, which is that stoic versus a risk to any distinction.
Money and Virtue in Stoicism
00:05:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's look at the some lines from the Stoics then to get a sense of what they said about money. So here's a line from Epictetus, handbook 24, or a few sentences I should say. If I can make money while remaining honest, trustworthy, and dignified, show me how and I will do it.
00:05:55
Speaker
But if you expect me to sacrifice my own values, just so you can get your hands on things that aren't even good, well, you can see yourself how thoughtless and unfair you are being. And you know that's coming from the handbook, Epictetus is sort of greatest hits, the sort of stoic maxims. And I think there's a reason that made it in. And and that is because it's almost a perfect summary of the stoic position, which is, you know, money is an indifferent, it's not good in and of itself. It's probably a preferable indifferent. And then naturally, all things considered, it's generally better to have more resources at your disposal, ah be be more capable financially. But it's not good in and of itself. And it's never something that should be sacrificed for things that are actually good for one's character.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's well put and it's it's ah it's to me such a nice quote as you said ah about this idea of indifference because we have an episode on different indifference but that's something when you start studying stoicism, it's like what's the purpose of calling things indifference if some of them are actually preferable, right? Like if if I'm going to always be encouraged to select well ah health when I have a chance or even always encouraged to select wealth when I have a chance.
00:07:15
Speaker
Why do we call it indifferent? Why don't we just call it good, but less good than character? Well, it's good, but it's less good than virtue. Why don't we, why do the Stoics make this division that just sounds like awkward to talk about? And this is the perfect example is because Abictetus is saying, you're expecting me to sacrifice my values for something that isn't even good.
00:07:34
Speaker
And so it shows that you're you're never in this conflict, there's never a kind of calculus for the Stoics. When you're asked between um you know your character or wealth, your character or popularity or fame, there's never ah you're never weighing the options because there's a type difference because you have good things and indifferent things. And that's the value, I think, of having that distinction. Epictetus really summarizes it well there.
00:07:58
Speaker
I would never compromise my character, which is something that's good for something that's not good. And it doesn't matter if that's a how many millions of dollars that is, it's a type difference there. Yeah, yeah,
Philosophy and Wealth
00:08:10
Speaker
absolutely. And I think that that lays up a section from Seneca's moral letters really nicely where, okay, so you have that type difference. Epictetus says, also, if you can make money while Maintaining your character or even improving your character. It's a good thing to do or at least You know, it's you can do it. Maybe it may not even be a good thing, but you can do it um And so so Seneca says one should not seek to lay up riches first one may attain to philosophy However, even without money for the journey it is indeed so after you have come to possess all other things Shall you then wish to possess wisdom also?
00:08:53
Speaker
Is philosophy to be the last requisite in life? A sort of supplement? Nay, your plan should be this. Be a philosopher now, whether you have anything or not. Or if you have anything, how do you know that you have not too much already? But if you have nothing, seek understanding first before anything else.
00:09:14
Speaker
That those that passage from Seneca stands out to me because Epictetus one reading of the a section of the handbook we just had is okay Wealth I should pursue it so long as I don't sacrifice my character You know as long as I'm not sacrificing my character I'm good to go which is strictly speaking correct, but I think Seneca brings back the framing what's most important isn't just you know having that sort of almost constraint on pursuing wealth, it's having that focus on philosophy. And I mean, Sonia Srivastava has this nice description of philosophy as nothing more than the practice of noble behavior. And that's what Seneca means here when he's talking about philosophy. you know It's not just talking about the academic practice.
00:10:05
Speaker
But the sort of theory and practice that comes into, you know, living a proper human life, a happy human life. So here in this passage, that's from moral letters 17. He's reminding Lucilius, reminding his readers to yeah pursue philosophy. Yeah, what a great quote. And there's two other things. I mean, I think you explained it really well, this It's not you know pursue wealth unless you have to give up your character. there' is this There's an opportunity cost. That's the first thing it makes me think of. There's an opportunity cost. you know If you think, well, I'm just gonna spend my entire life in the pursuit of wealth, and as long as I don't harm anybody or lie, then everything's great. And I think Seneca's calling out, well, you're missing something else you could be doing, which is pursuing wisdom, which is pursuing philosophy. ah So there's an opportunity cost. The other thing is it kind of contrasts
00:11:02
Speaker
And I don't know if you feel this way, Kayla, but I feel like there's this representation in contemporary society. a philosophy almost as a leisurely activity, a philosophy as as the thing for the rich, basically. ah well you First you become rich and then you sit around and read books, right? And I remember, I used to take this kind of personally, I don't know if you ever had this experience, but I think especially a thing in the UK, I tell people I study philosophy and they'd be like, wow, you must be really rich to take such a useless degree. You know you must be ah must be just the, I guess, a man of means so you can indulge in leisure.
00:11:41
Speaker
And I think Seneca, mean you take it or leave it coming from Seneca because he's certainly a rich guy, but I think he's calling out this idea that's a kind of distorted picture. It's not first you make all your money and then you read some books. It's like you not the crown jewel at the end of a life, otherwise not focused on philosophy. It is a thing that you can start at any point. It's a thing you can incorporate into your life at any point, and it's the most important thing to do, so why would you delay it until the end?
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I'll put. I've been thinking myself recently that I should spend more time reading for reasons that are somewhat related to this where it's sort of natural to think, especially when you're a little bit younger, maybe 20s, 30s, focus should be on career.
00:12:30
Speaker
raising a family, whatever, what have you, whatever some of those main priorities are. But there is something to the thought that if you think something's important, say, study, practicing philosophy, it's something you should continue be doing ah all the time, you know, maybe not spending multiple hours on it a day, but at least the sort of thing where you you're setting this aside 10 minutes, 20 minutes, what have you to read quietly, think quietly.
00:12:54
Speaker
um do that engage in that sort of reflection and you know doing philosophy at that level, at that more contemplative ah level. So I think that's something that I've been thinking about recently and probably is really just an application of you know what what what you just said. I think that philosophical activities like contemplation, given that they're important, are things we should set aside.
00:13:18
Speaker
but and you know set aside just for later. Assume whether whether it's wealth, time, what have you. you know when i When I have the time, when I have the means, then I'll do it. There's something to a thought that at least building the the habit at some level of ah studying, of ah of having a philosophical practice is essential.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I think what the Stoics would say too is that you don't, I mean, the contemplative life, you have to carve something out for yourself, right? You've got to find that time to listen to a podcast or read a book. But the praxis of stoicism, you don't need to carve carve out time for that. You're doing that every day you go to work, you're doing that every day you spend time with your family, every day you make a decision to be disciplined or not, or ah So they're they're the the theoretical component, yeah, you got to carve time out. And as my life has gotten busier, I read less philosophy for fun than I did in grad school. I mean, granted, that was my job in grad school. i Still now, as my work's gotten busier, I try to carve out some time for myself to read fiction because I think fiction is like kind of very philosophical because you're engaging these kind of thought experiments, these characters, these morality plays.
00:14:24
Speaker
That's gotten harder. and But the the actual practice of like, okay, ah am I going to be a kind person? Am I going to do, am I going to be a just person, a moderate person? You you don't need to carve out time for that. You got that in every moment. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think that's absolutely, that's yeah, that's absolutely right.
Risks of Wealth in Stoicism
00:14:43
Speaker
um So something else the Stoics talk a lot about is
00:14:49
Speaker
Different circumstances have a range of benefits and risks, and wealth is no exception to that general principle. And a lot of times, the Stoics are generally, especially, you know, maybe Musonius Rufus or Epictetus are harsh on the wealthy, and in part because our students often are coming from wealthy backgrounds.
00:15:19
Speaker
And in particular, they're picking out some of these risks that is involved with ah being well off, being affluent. um So you know the sorts of things they might say is wealth has a risk of complacency. In particular, Musonius Rufus talks about how if you're wealthy you may become less ah risk tolerant and you may be too afraid of essentially of losing what you have which may cause you to make less sacrifices for others for your city ah whereas you know someone who has nothing to lose if they're in a different circumstance they're not going to feel that external pressure so that's a a kind of pressure that doesn't make wealth bad but it's the kind of thing that
00:16:07
Speaker
makes it It's something you should be aware of. you know Seneca is talking about how you should always ensure that you own your things, not that they own you and so on. and so that's That's one kind of risk. and I think the Stoics do a good job, other ancients as well, of course, ah of cataloging what what those risks are. so Maybe we can talk some more about those. so yeah um I mean, I think that's, I think that's absolutely right about you. You can become risk adverse to a certain extent. My my my initial thought to that also though, is that there's a kind of risk adverseness that comes from having two little things, you know, there's the there's the golden handcuffs, but there's also.
00:16:44
Speaker
The golden handcuffs, which is the idea, you know your job is too good. You're getting paid too well. You've gotten a kind of lifestyle creep and now you can't can't take on a different job. You can't take on a different role. You can't change your life because you're kind of trapped in this path. But then there's also, I mean, Epictetus was a ah epictetus was a slave. Epictetus was giving advice to other slaves. I think of that example about holding the chamber pot.
00:17:09
Speaker
the person, the slaves, like, you know, if I don't hold the chamber pot for the master, he's going to beat me. And there's a certain amount of risk intolerance that comes from that as well. So, so I think, but I don't think that I'm disagreeing with the Sony services point because my Sony services point is not.
00:17:24
Speaker
Oh, you know that being poor is a perfect condition for studying philosophy and being rich is bad. I don't think he's making that point. He's saying there's risks that come from being rich. It's probably risks that come from being you know too too poorly off as well. ah so it It cuts both ways, but now we're focusing on the wealth associated riches.
00:17:47
Speaker
Another thing that Missonius talks about, um maybe maybe, and maybe you'll pull this up later, but he has that other quote about how a little bit of hardship you can teach you some lessons, a little bit of difficulty, can teach you things both both about yourself and also about
00:18:07
Speaker
I would say the nature of the good, right? Like you realize if if you get, here's the quote where he's talking to a young Spartan boy and he says, you know, pleasure and pain aren't good or bad. And the Spartan boy goes, are are you sure that pain isn't good? Like I thought pain was good.
00:18:23
Speaker
And he's like, oh, I disagree with that. But that that boy is much more likely to become a stoic than the than the rich Romans are. right So there there is that kind of softness or complacency. Again, but the the stoic answer to this, it's an indifference. It's all in how you use it. So that that's a risk. that rich That risk comes from using your wealth in a certain way. But you know there's nothing about having money that means you need to be uh afraid of losing it doesn't mean you need to be uh too used to pleasure doesn't mean you need to become complacent none of those things necessarily come with acquiring wealth it's just a kind of a risk or a tendency the stoics are calling out as you said because they're hanging out all the time with rich people and rich people's kids teaching the kids of rich people yeah yeah exactly and i think there's a key point that the the sox you recognize that there are risks and benefits of wealth
00:19:20
Speaker
you know moderate affluence or poverty, I think, and yeah whatever station you're at, you're going to be faced with different trials. And it's an interesting question. Certainly, what's the optimal situation? And perhaps you know just as the stoics advise you to surround yourself with good people. Perhaps you want to surround yourself in a sort of financial environment, I suppose, as conducive to cultivating virtue. And I think it's it's fair to say the source probably would give different answers as to what what that would be ah for different individuals. You know, for Seneca, that number, whatever it is, might be a little bit higher. For Musonius Rufus Epictetus, it's probably going to be a little bit lower, right? i think um
00:20:12
Speaker
ah moussonia's rufus and epitetus are more skeptical of wealth and ah seneca is in a sense And so I mean, this is not necessarily a stoic idea, but it's kind of a personal idea. Um, and I'm a stoic, so I guess it kind of counts, but, you're very rarely in any pursuit going to find somebody that's world-class at that pursuit and not hyper obsessed and focused on that thing. So you're you're very rarely gonna find somebody who's 225% body fat, you know just super muscly guy who is not thinking all the time about what they're eating and their exercise schedule and prioritizing that. And I think the same thing is with wealth. And I think, so you're talking about that optimal point, it's like,
00:20:57
Speaker
You almost pass a certain level where there's a certain amount I think you can acquire while being well balanced. And I think if you pass a certain level, unless you're born into a circumstance or perhaps, you know, this is not, this is not a hard and fast rule. Like sometimes things can happen and, and you know, you you can start a business and it can go really well or things like this can, things can happen. But.
00:21:19
Speaker
i think I think above a certain level, it's very hard to obtain, maintain, and increase ah without a hyperobsession and focus. and I used to think even when I was when i was um younger, i remember I might have told this anecdote before, but I remember you know being at a dinner and sitting across from the richest people I'd ever had dinner with at that point, and all they were talking about was their other rich friend who has Uh, you know, multiple staff at their house and multiple different houses across the country. And I was like, I'm hanging out with the richest people I've ever been with. And they're just talking about other people they know that are richer than them. And it struck me as so surprising because I thought, well, you think after a certain level of wealth, your interest in it or your consideration of it would decrease.
00:22:02
Speaker
And that can be the case. There's not a hard and fast rule, but often it's the opposite. Often, the the more you get, it's because you think about it more, and you focus on it more, and then it creates this kind of feedback loop. And that comes back to Seneca's point about opportunity cost, right which is that that feedback loop is coming at the expense of something else. It's coming at the expense of your attention going somewhere else, right whether that's your family, that's your character, it's your personal development.
00:22:28
Speaker
um and so I mean, this is so so we because we were using the example of wealth, and i so I guess this is kind of a separate argument line, which is just that if you become great at anything, it's going to take a lot of your time and attention. And there's a risk of that opportunity cost risk again, of it taking it away from, I guess, a pursuit of philosophy or pursuit of ah personal holistic development.
Purposeful Pursuit of Wealth
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, there's a way in which you can see sort of the optimistic spin of this is that you know the pursuit of
00:23:02
Speaker
People who become wealthy, in the best case, their focus is perhaps not on wealth as such, you know, not like, I'm just trying to be rich, but often on some kind of craft or building a business or something like this. And you have that obsessive focus around the craft, the business, and then where you start to see perhaps more pernicious effects of the pursuit ah of wealth is when it becomes more of a thing that's done for itself. you know I just want to be rich and usually I think that has a kind of social element. And I think that's what your dinner story brings out nicely is I think often when people, even when they're saint they appear to present to have the focus on becoming rich sort of in and of itself, often I think that's driven by a kind of social
00:23:52
Speaker
element usually is as it as well what's behind that yeah abstract desire yeah um for for many people. I think that's exactly right and then I think it to connect it back to the stoic idea, what ah ah why is the person who's obsessed with their craft okay and the person who's obsessed with becoming rich not okay? Well, I think the difference there is that if you're obsessed with your craft, it comes back to Epictetus as you have role ethics, right? You've understood yourself as being and talented at something, disposed towards something, having an opportunity to be great at something, and you're looking at fulfilling that role, fulfilling that craft. Whereas focusing on wealth is not a role, it is a it is a thing. And so if you put that thing in the top position, it's almost impossible to do that without considering it good, without giving it status above being an indifferent, right without putting it in the wrong position. And so if you if you spend all your life pursuing a thing,
00:24:48
Speaker
you will compromise your character in pursuit of that thing. But if you if you instead have that kind of that role, that craft, that is it that's I guess that's a different kind of pursuit because it's less um it's less externally focused, it's less and it's less about focusing your life around an indifferent, which I don't think the stoicists think could be done properly.
00:25:11
Speaker
And it's more around um fulfilling fulfilling your purpose or function as you see it. And obviously, the stoic's gonna say that purpose or function comes after other functions, right? Your your role as a as an artist comes after your role as ah as to be a kind human being, to be a just person, to be a virtuous person. But if you've got all those other boxes checked, well then pursue art to pursue that other role to the most of your abilities.
00:25:39
Speaker
I don't know. What do you think about that? Do you think that's compelling? Yeah, I think that's just that's generally compelling. I suppose if you wanted to push back on that, you could say something like, well, part of many people's role in the modern world is to be economically productive or something like this.
00:25:57
Speaker
That's a little bit reductive. And I think that, you know, there are arguments against what I just said, but if you want to make that a little more plausible, you know, sometimes people talking about economic productivity or economic progress, you're just thinking about these really abstract things or material goods when, you know, in reality, what ah economic progress brings is a lot of what the Stoics would call vicious type stuff, you know consumerism, satisfaction of whatever people's trivial desires are, but also just like general capabilities to, say, prevent tragedy.
00:26:35
Speaker
or improve the welfare of the polis or what have you. In general, wealthy you know what does wealth mean? It just means having more resources, more capabilities to do both good and bad things, to satisfy both good and bad ah desires at some level.
00:26:53
Speaker
um So all that's to say is, i mean there is and you know as so long as you can focus on the good as a person, as a group of people, then playing some role in you know building, sort of pushing the economic engine forward, as it were, is can be important. And then of course, you know the being able to capture some of that value that you're creating,
00:27:19
Speaker
is evidence that you are economically productive. And of course, there's ah lots of asterisks around this these case. you know It depends on who you are, different roles and such. different Some people are going to be good at making money, others aren't. But there may be something to that case, and that might be you know like the sort of thing that ah a stoic capitalist would say. so Well, i think that's yeah i yeah I think that's a compelling counterexample, I guess, just to ah push back on that one last time. um I think if you think about why people want wealth, if you asked most people, most people would say either to either to provide for myself or to provide for my family.
00:28:02
Speaker
And I think that can be reduced. Those can be changed to the role of being a good family member, usually a good parent or you know even a good child, right? You want to take care of your parents as they get older. Like there's lots of, but if you abstract that out to the level of like, I want to be a good parent, I want to be a good child and and have the means to take care of my parents when they get old.
00:28:23
Speaker
I think all of that is fine on the stoic grounds. It just is not the kind of thing because it's not the kind of thing where you would harm your parent in pursuit of wealth. It's not the kind of thing where you would alienate your relationship with your children in your pursuit of wealth because that that role is what takes precedent. And then in this case, pursuing wealth is the way to achieve that role. But sometimes taking the lower paying job is going to be the way to be a good parent.
00:28:47
Speaker
Sure, sure. And then then that's the, so that's the, I think that's the thing again, just to come back to that role versus I guess ends distinction. Yeah, yeah. So I suppose it's it certainly essential that you fulfill these other roles and ah so I think a lot of, you know, say,
00:29:11
Speaker
the Stoics were had a clear hierarchy of roles. So as you don't want to ah violate the role of being a rational and social human, essentially. and then And then after that, there are things like familial relationships and so on. And then probably after that comes questions about come might come from these more economic type roles. So you maybe one way to adjust the argument would be to say the this role ah around economic productivity is something that comes after a lot of these natural and acquired roles most humans have.
00:29:52
Speaker
Um, but, but it's still an important one. It shouldn't be sacrificed. These other rules shouldn't be sacrificed for, uh, in pursuit of wealth clearly, but this later one could be an important one for many people, you know, it's at the end of rule ethics, there's, you know, what do you prefer to do? You sort of get that open field once you've done everything well. And some people are going to be like, i you know I prefer just to, and I make a lot of money and I think I'm a good fit for that. Others will think, but you know, something that I think a little bit more concrete and I think maybe more pro-social, artistic, what have you. And I think that's probably fine.
Instrumental Use of Money
00:30:35
Speaker
I mean, would I think, yeah, without sounding a lot of stoicism comes back to this. I think if you, if you put money on a pedestal, if you think money is good by the stoic definition, you are vicious because you're ignorant. You think the wrong thing leads to a good life.
00:30:52
Speaker
If you pursue wealth for the sake of wealth, you are vicious. If you pursue wealth for the sake of pleasure, you are vicious because you want the wrong thing in life. You misunderstand the purpose of living and what makes a good life. That being said, there's plenty of other good things you can want money for instrumentally.
00:31:13
Speaker
There's plenty of other good things that you can want to do with the money you acquire. And so deep the having wealth is not amoral. Pursuing wealth is not amoral. um And so you can't look at a wealthy person and say there's anything wrong wrong with them.
00:31:31
Speaker
And you you you can't even necessarily you can't even necessarily criticize that tendency in yourself if you're the kind of person who who's wealthy or wants to become wealthy. It again comes down to that self-knowledge of why are you doing it? well What purpose are you trying to fulfill or or what are you trying to get out of? And what would you what would you trade your wealth for?
00:31:53
Speaker
I guess another way of putting it, right? It comes back to that original Epictetus question. If you expect me to sacrifice my own values just to get something that isn't even good, you're crazy. I would never do that. And you know, how many wealthy people could say that? but bill not Not all of them, you know, less than we would like. um And so I think that's the, you know, that's, that's a, that's a stoic point there. I'm using vicious there, not, not judgmentally, but in the literal stoic definition of your, your ignorant, right? You want the wrong things. so Yeah, you're a bad person. Black and white and stoic thinking. We're all bad people here. Yeah. So yeah, so that's that. That's some notes on wealth.
Conclusion and Closing Remarks
00:32:32
Speaker
Let's let's add with two lines from from the from the ancients on wealth. First, we have from lecture 20, New Sonius Rufus.
00:32:40
Speaker
The person who lives luxuriously would also be entirely unjust. Inasmuch as he would shrink from performing tasks he ought to undertake on behalf of his own city, if performing them meant abandoning his luxurious lifestyle.
00:32:56
Speaker
So that's a citation for that ah earlier point about sacrifice. And then a short quip from Seneca, the shortest cut to riches is to despise riches, moral letters 62. Oh, I was going to ask, is that an equivocation on riches? Like, do you think Seneca is saying the shortest way to a good life is to despise money? Or is he, is he making a pragmatic point a about acquiring wealth?
00:33:24
Speaker
I think he's making the first point where it's similar to the line. I think this was, Seneca also quotes this, but I believe this comes from the Epicureans, where if you want to make Pythakles rich, do not add to his store of wealth, but subtract from his desires. I think it's that exact thought. Yeah. That exact thought. Good. Yeah, it's good to bring that out.
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's from letter 62. i have found that he lacks nothing it is in the power of any man to despise all things but of no man to possess all things ah shortest cut to riches is to despise riches
00:34:10
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks, Gil.
00:34:15
Speaker
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00:34:33
Speaker
more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyer.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.