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The Roman Emperor on Strength, How to Transform Misfortune Into Fortune, And Death (Episode 166)
408 Plays16 hours ago
In this episode, Michael and Caleb explore Meditations 4.49-51, where Marcus Aurelius discusess resilience, misfortune, death, and simplicity.
Be like a promontory against crashing waves.
(01:09) 49, Section 1
(08:20) 49, Section 2
(11:21) It's Not Things Themselves That Harm Us
(15:44) Powerful Phrases
(17:45) Stoicism Is For Everyone
(21:21) 50
(33:39) 51
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Transcript
Introduction to Stowell Conversations and Marcus Aurelius
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, I have a quite maybe a deeper reaction on this. This is an argument I don't really understand. I think this is actually a part of stoicism. This is a part of stoicism that I don't agree with. i' Welcome to Stowell Conversations. Welcome to Stowell Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley.
00:00:20
Speaker
And today we're going to be talking through some passages in the Stoic Emperor, Marcus Aurelius's meditations.
Discussion on Philosophy and Virtue in Meditations
00:00:29
Speaker
In particular, we'll be doing a book for 49 through 51. So reading through some of the reminders, some people call it the memoranda that Marcus Aurelius left to himself about philosophy and how to live.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, I always love going through these with you, Caleb. I don't read, I always prefer Epictetus to Marcus, but then when we go through and we read Marcus carefully, there's always some sort of profound insight or nugget of wisdom. So looking forward to it again. Awesome. Me too. So we'll start with 49. 49 is broken up. You often, in many translations, broken up into do two different sections. So we'll start with the first section.
Promontory Metaphor and Stoic Endurance
00:01:21
Speaker
Be like the promontory against which the waves continually break, but it stands firm and tames the fury of the water around it." And this is one of those fantastic sentences that you can imagine Marcus Aurelius writing down in order to motivate himself to you know be like that.
00:01:50
Speaker
which stands against any storm, any wind, any sea. And there's that picture, of I think, of the you know the inner citadel that Stoicism promises, that ability to weather any external circumstance because you've become the kind of person who recognizes what's important is the internal and taking control over the internal, which for the Stoics would mean ah cultivate virtue and such.
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, any quick reactions to that that first part? Well, I like the idea too of the waves crashing against. I have the Hayes translation here as well, which says the raging of the sea falls still around it. So there is this idea too of you You're not retreating into yourself. You're still like causal, causally, uh, interacting with the world and the world is in the external world is bumping up against you and then kind of bouncing off, right? Like you're bringing that strength. You got that inner Citadel, but you're bringing that inner Citadel into the sea. You're not the.
00:03:00
Speaker
Not to push the metaphor too far, but you're not the rock in the middle of the desert. You're the the the rock in the middle of the stormy ocean. And so you're actually ah affecting the ocean. like there's one In one sense, you can't control the ocean. That's the point of the metaphor, right? You can only stand against it. You can't change the direction of the waves.
00:03:19
Speaker
But each wave you can meet, you can break. And each wave that strikes you, you can withstand until it calms. And so there is this kind of, um yeah, there is that interaction. It's also a funny, um I think another point that comes to mind is that when you think of a paradigm of excellence, right, if you think of those we think of as paradigms of maybe of action, and this is almost the this paradigm of inaction, where the strength comes from the inactivity, around activity, the the calmness around activity. And that's an interesting kind of role model, the place for yourself.
Stoic Values vs. Roman Cultural Ideals
00:03:55
Speaker
like not not to change things up, not to ah do something really impressive, but just to remain secure through chaos as the as the role model or the ideal. it's It's not something outside of stoicism people talk about too much. It's cool.
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think that's a good point. Something else worth mentioning here and in this in this first section is that this metaphor is echoed throughout Greco-Roman literature. ah so And so one interesting example of this is that in the great epic the Aeneid by Virgil. There's this description of a warrior who is essentially standing up against a swarm of swarm of enemies and and I'll just read through it so as you can get a sense of how
00:04:48
Speaker
This metaphor might take on a different ah different shape, but but keep its keep its meaning in different contexts. He stands fast, like a rock at sea, a sea-bound rock that won't give way. When a big surge hits and the howling breakers pound it hard, its bulk stands fast through its foaming reefs and spurs roar on.
Literary Comparison with Virgil's Aeneid
00:05:10
Speaker
All for nothing as seaweed dashing against its flanks swirls away in the backwash.
00:05:17
Speaker
So that's the picture of a warrior standing firm against ah swarming enemies. And that's from the Shady Barch translation of the Inyad, I should say. And so I think it's it's a powerful image of perhaps when you can almost imagine I think it's it's reasonable to suspect Marcus Aurelius had heard this before, whether it was in the Aeneid, some other epic, or perhaps it's just a common meme, we might almost say, in Roman culture at that time. And it's the sort of thing he wanted to to stick through just because I think it it does carry
00:05:53
Speaker
Uh, in addition, I think anyone, you don't need to be a stoic to to find value in this metaphor, but it's especially apt for, for stoics once you, um, are, you know, keep in mind what, what is the C it's, it's these externals, it's a circumstances life presents you with. Um, and you're able to be the promontory, the, uh, because you have a specific character, an admiral character.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, like I was almost arguing that's not why I was just saying, oh, it's a surprising thing to focus on because it seems like not a type of character or excellence that we talk about very much in our heroes. But it seems like that that was actually kind of a Roman ideal um or one that was referenced by Virgil.
00:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder what that says about Romans in general, that that they put that on the pedestal. It's an interesting, yeah, I think to have the like immovability as a virtue is is an interesting focus. um Certainly something I strive towards. Yeah, I think it's an interesting point where for perhaps for Roman culture, these ideas of endurance, there's certainly this connection to martial valor.
00:07:09
Speaker
um And being able to stand firm might be more, I think, you know, it's it's certainly certainly something people we celebrate in modern culture, being able to keep cool. That's ah often important. But of course, there are many other other values, perhaps crowd out that message. And it might not be the top, say top five or what have you. ah and values people people might hold. And today, we're certainly ranked higher for for Romans. I think that's certainly true ah for a number of reasons. um But but you know let's so let's go on because in this section, Marcus Aurelius offers another maxim.
Maxims for Endurance and Virtue
00:07:50
Speaker
ah that's that's related to to, I think, this very issue of of weathering the waves of you know being able to stand firm and and detail some of these ideas that Stokes can use to be the kind of person who stands firm. And I should say that I'm reading from a modernization of the George Long translation. So this is a Dover Thrift edition of The Meditations.
00:08:21
Speaker
I am unhappy because this has happened to me. Not so, say. I am happy though this has happened to me because I continue free from pain, neither crushed by the present nor fearing the future. For such a thing as this might have happened to every man, but every man would not have continued free from pain on such an occasion.
00:08:42
Speaker
Why, then, is that rather a misfortune than this a good fortune? And do you, in all cases, define a misfortune, that which is not a deviation from man's nature? And does a thing seem to you to be a deviation from man's nature, if it is not contrary to the will of man's nature? Well, you know the will of nature.
00:09:01
Speaker
Will this that has happened prevent you from being just, magnanimous, temperate, prudent, secure against inconsiderate opinions and falsehood? Will it prevent you from having modesty, freedom, and everything else, by the presence of which man's nature obtains all that is its own? Remember, too, on every occasion, that leads you to vexation, to apply this principle, not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune.
00:09:31
Speaker
Any quick reactions? Well, so stoic. I mean, Marcus is basically saying... A quick summary of stoic ideals, which is to say the goal of life is good character. what's the It's the live in accordance with nature, achieve excellence as a person. Excellence as a person is to act well. um The bad things that happen to you don't stop you from acting well. They're, in fact, almost the contrary, they're opportunities to act well. They're tests, as Epictetus would say, they're the Olympics, they're trials. They're opportunities to display your excellence.
00:10:04
Speaker
And so when bad things happen to you, um your job is to respond well, and then when you've responded well, he's going a step further and saying, well, you should actually almost be happy. It's what a good thing has happened. You had a test and you passed it. That's nothing but nothing thing bad has happened um when you focus on the internal like that. so it's I mean, it's such a stoic idea, really well put there.
00:10:30
Speaker
And then besides the fact that is stoic, I think it's it's it's ah it's a useful framing. It is like an obstacle is the way thing, which is another Marcus line about how we have opportunities to turn hardships into benefits. And one of the ways we have this opportunity is to focus on these as as um chances to display our character and I think the other thing he's pointing out though is the responsibility on ourselves when he says you know is anything is anything about the external event stopping you from acting well from being brave or courageous or
00:11:02
Speaker
Um, just no. So, you know, don't blame the other event. If, if, if you fail, it's, it's, it's up to you and it's really putting that focus on, you know, the dichotomy of control. It doesn't use the exact language, but really focusing the attention on those things that are up to you in the situation.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i think So I think philosophically, there's this idea in stoicism that it's not things in themselves that harm us by how we respond to them, which you're exactly heading on. And that's a familiar idea if if you if you know anything about stoicism. I think sometimes people might take that idea and This is an entirely immediately misleading. It's not entirely misleading, but you could think about it in terms of putting on different glasses. right so you You have the wrong lens on. If you put on the right lens, you'll see the world the right way. it's It's not the things that you're looking at that harm you, but how you see them. you know It's your opinion of them. Strictly speaking, i I think that is correct, but that can be somewhat miss misleading. and Perhaps, I think what what Marcus Aurelius is reminding
00:12:11
Speaker
Uh, at least me here when I write and read this passage, which sticks out is it's not, it's not the fact that you recognize that misfortune doesn't harm you. That sort of saves you from misfortune as it were. It's the fact that you believe that. And also you're able to bear it nobly, which is perhaps something that the metaphor is like the glasses metaphor.
00:12:39
Speaker
might miss is that it's not just, you know, it's not just a matter of how you see the world, but also a matter of thinking and acting in ah the right way and bearing whatever happens nobly. And I think that's, ah and that ties directly to the fact that he, you know, he lists all these virtues and says, is what happened, stop you from acting with with justice, magnanimity, prudence and such.
Challenges of Practicing Stoicism
00:13:09
Speaker
No one has a good point. There's two things I want to add to that.
00:13:13
Speaker
um The first is that what the when somebody says something like. Um, it's not the things themselves that hurt you. It's how you think about them. It can often seem almost like flip it or trite or like, you know, six sticks and stones may hurt my bone or like break my bones, but words will never hurt me kind of thing. Like it's just like, well, just like don't care. Um, and it doesn't, it doesn't reveal the second part of it, which is like, um, you know, your reaction to the things is what's harming you.
00:13:44
Speaker
And it will take years of dedicated work and effort to become an an amazing person, and an amazing person is the kind of person who can then withstand those things well. like it kind of It's like, yes, not A, but B. But B is very, very difficult, and it requires a lot of effort and focus.
00:14:02
Speaker
so like yeah The Stoics aren't wrong. You're not wrong that me getting upset or angry at this person insulting me is my fault in a way or my responsibility. But it's like the Stoics also think this but you can sometimes get misinterpreted thinking, you know, it's very easy to just be like, we'll just don't care about it.
00:14:21
Speaker
Um, so it's like, it's not just putting on another pair of glasses. It's like, you've got to, you know, hammer out these lenses yourself in the process that takes time. And, um, I guess Marcus is spending some time kind of praising the people that have those good glasses. Um, and then to stretch the metaphor even further, I would say.
00:14:40
Speaker
You know, you said the real glory there is the withstanding that, well, there's a lot of glasses that can make something not hurt, right? So if your only goal is to be numb, there's a lot of glasses you can take. You know, someone insults you and you want to not feel anything. You can be like, well, they were like, nothing matters anyway. You can put on the nihilist glasses. You can put on cynical glasses. You can, there's a lot of lenses that can make pain go away.
00:15:08
Speaker
But to make pain go away while still being just courageous, kind, pious, self-control, like have self-control, generosity, have all these other virtues. And so to to to put on the glasses that don't just numb the pain but make you um excellent really is to keep the metaphor, the glasses that make you see things truthfully, see things as they really are.
00:15:31
Speaker
is a much more difficult, and different task than just, okay, rationalize the pain away, which is is is not what stoics are asking for. They're asking for this higher bar that Marcus is is discussing here. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I was, um,
00:15:49
Speaker
I think, well, and I think another key point from this passage is that first, it's it's this higher bar is difficult to achieve, but you can see Marcus Aurelius giving himself maxims to reach it. And I think that's something that, you know, why so many people have found the meditation is valuable is that there are these phrases you can remind yourself of.
00:16:12
Speaker
that remind essentially will make, if you can bring them to mind at the right moments, will make you be able to handle handle these moments and act in a way that you know you're you're proud of. So you know these ideas, these thoughts, like does this really prevent me from acting with virtue to whatever happened? like If I am able to keep that in my mind, then I think that clearly that thought is is is very useful. And there's also, of course, the phrase that bad luck born nobly is good luck. Another powerful maxim, I think, that if you're able to
00:16:49
Speaker
ah Quick catch yourself when you notice, you know, this is terribly unlucky. This is ah unfortunate. You know, if they dealt you a poor hand, if you're immediately able to move to that to that next thought, you know, what what makes it a poor hand is burying it ignobly. So, you know, do do do the reverse. I think if you're able to keep that maximum in mind, that's going to help you. Certainly, if when I'm able to do such things, help me reach that that higher standard. and
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. um So I guess what you're raising is the philosophical aspect. And then there's the actual practical aspect, which is to say, call to mind these maxims or these ideas in these moments. um That's that's a practical way. You know, someone might ask, well, how can I be more like this? Well, just remembering this, just changing the framing in the moment through the use of a maxim, through the use of studying philosophy is a helpful way to do that. Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:47
Speaker
Another point from this passage is mentioned by Christopher Gill, a great scholar and also a guest of so stoic conversations. He says that the main something this passage brings out is the main underlying theory is a stoic belief in the constitutional capacity of all human beings as such to develop towards ethical perfection. It's a little wordy perhaps, but I think something, what I think this nicely brings out is that any anyone, any human is capable of moving towards this standard of nobility of that Marcus is aiming to do, aiming to achieve himself. So why is that? First, you have the traditional stoic idea of providence that sort sort of renders ideas of fortune, misfortune, and such ultimately meaningless, right? Because because
00:18:43
Speaker
because the the Stoics believe that nature was ordered in an excellent way and because they believe in these ideas of of providence. What what happens is it isn't random things happen for a reason. um And then and there's also the idea that ah
00:19:03
Speaker
I think is ah as essential to stoicism. but Even modern stoicism um must be essential to to stoicism is that human beings can weather any storm because they are human, because they have this ability to reason. And that means that they you know we can choose to respond as, as, as we will to whatever happens, misfortune, fortune and such. Um, so that's just, there's that one of the key, I think stoic ideas underlying this passage is that yes, this is a high standard. Yes, it's difficult. Here are some maximums of tools to help achieve it. But also here's, here's the a reminder or something in the background of stoic theories that and anyone can do it, can move, can move towards doing it.
00:19:50
Speaker
yeah like If your ideal is to be rich, you know in some ways it's a zero-sum game. you know so there's some Some people are going to be rich, some people are going to be poor, i mean um maybe not like hypothetically, but in practice um today. ah And then you know if your goal is to be an excellent warrior, well, some people are just going to be bigger than others, stronger than others. Some people are going to have physical you know impediments to that goal.
00:20:15
Speaker
um But this idea about, you know, the the in the stoic view, the ideal is something that's achievable for everybody. It's this really egalitarian picture, as you said, doesn't make the standard lower. That means we all have the tools to it. We all have the tools to get there, which is which is cool. like That's one of the main things I like about stoicism is it kind of it is that balance, I think, of continuing to hold people to a high standard while still being egalitarian, I think, is is really cool. Yeah, I think so. I think so.
00:20:45
Speaker
All right, anything else on the 49? No, i think that I think that nailed it. It's a it's a nice... Well, it it makes me think of why people are like... Sometimes people recommend Marcus's Meditations as like the first book, and I know some people read it as their first book, but it makes me think of...
00:21:03
Speaker
yeah there's a lot of stoicism in there. And maybe I wonder what somebody hearing that for the first time would think, and they'd probably take something of value from it, but it it is really a practitioner of stoicism who understands it deeply, articulating in their own words. and um I think that's that's cool. Yeah, absolutely. All right, so I'll read out section 50.
The Stoic Perspective on Life and Death
00:21:27
Speaker
It is a vulgar but still a useful help toward contempt of death to pass and review those who have tenaciously stuck to life. What more have they gained than those who died early?
00:21:38
Speaker
Certainly, they lie in their tomb somewhere at last. Caddisianus, Fabius, Julianus, Lepidus, or anyone else like them, who have carried out many to be buried and then were carried out themselves. Although the interval is small between birth and death, and consider with how much trouble and in company with what sort of people and in what a feeble body, this interval is laboriously past.
00:22:05
Speaker
Do not then consider life a thing of any value, for look to the immensity of time behind you and to the time that is ahead of you, another boundless space. In this infinity then, what is the difference between him who lives three days and him who lives three generations?" Well, I have a quite maybe a deeper reaction on this.
00:22:27
Speaker
This is an argument I don't really understand. I think this is actually a part of stoicism. Let me be interested in what you think, Caleb. This is a part of stoicism that I don't agree with. I haven't been able to wrap my head around this anti-fear of death argument because I...
00:22:44
Speaker
Basically, he like I understand the idea of like don't be afraid of dying because it's something everybody does. To be dead is to be asleep. um you know Our lifetime is so brief, so when you look at the abyss of you know how long you'll be dead for, everybody will be the same, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
00:23:03
Speaker
but i'm just kind of generally skeptical but i also just like being alive i guess so i'm like i don't know i'm afraid of dying but it's like well what's the difference for the person who get pride from life well they got to live a bit more and What is gained by dying old? I don't know. You get to see your grandchildren run around or you get to spend more time with your partner. Um, the, the, I guess I, I, like, I understand the getting the negative of dying, but like there's also a positive to life and I don't really understand when that gets trivialized. That's something I struggle with in stoicism. Yeah, it makes sense to me. I think, um, I know some people have speculated that.
00:23:41
Speaker
So many of these Greco Roman philosophies focus on death in particular, because it was would have been so immediately obvious to people of of that time.
00:23:57
Speaker
infant infant mortality rate was exceptionally high. The world was more violent. And perhaps that's one reason why they tend to speak about death so often. And of course, I think there's It is interesting that there's, I think, a fundamental view that the Stoics have, a few a number of other philosophers have as well, which is that something essential to living the good life is facing death the right way. And the fact that, you know, you're facing the fact that you will die ah virtuously. And I think there is something fundamentally correct about that. But but on occasion, I also see
00:24:42
Speaker
sometimes lines from Marcus Aurelius or or Seneca, what have you, almost go too far in the, it almost seems like they they they they trivialize the possibility the the fact that you will die in a way that is is simply not correct, or at least not not useful. I mean, understand that if if you're stuck, you must think death is an indifferent, life is an indifferent, the fact that you will die, you know, death isn't necessarily always bad.
00:25:14
Speaker
But you know even even remarks like like these like this last sentence, you know what's the difference between him who lives three days and him who lives three generations? you know All things considered, you certainly rather prefer to live three generations. It's a pretty big difference. yeah um i mean It makes me think of like mean the three days, three generations is a good example of why I don't think the argument works. but like
00:25:42
Speaker
We did an episode on ah medically assisted suicide, and I think there's like there's something really stoic about being able to say, which is a which is facing that fear of death, which is to say, if I can't continue to live away in a way that I want to live, I will not let fear of death stop me from dying.
00:26:02
Speaker
I think there's something really stoic and excellent about that. That to me makes total sense, which is to say you know um living is no longer in my interest. I can't do it the way I want to. So I will i will face death early rather than prolong it. But that's a very specific context.
00:26:21
Speaker
Whereas when when um you know you say what's the difference is again three days or three generations. Well, it's a big difference. Now, the way you framed it, which I think is the way that a lot of this has to be ah viewed is like, you know is that somebody who's just like traumatized by the fact that Lots of kids live three days or that, you know, there there might be war or you might get your head cut off or, you know, get sick of something ah that nobody really understands quite quickly. And so maybe there's some justification or rationalization of that, but which ah which makes sense to me, but I'm not. um I don't know, not as this is probably the part of slow philosophy, one of the parts of philosophy I disagree with the most.
00:27:08
Speaker
ah When reading this, I think another factor to bring in mind is that, of course, Marcus Reyes is writing notes to himself. so Taken literally as an argument, I don't think this section works, but that doesn't mean that they can't be, they perhaps weren't useful or there were some other implicit ideas that ah Marcus had in mind that that would that would make them work. um and and Seneca has a line that's related, which is that, you know and A short book is not necessarily a bad one. ah A longer book is not necessarily a better one. which does see also That metaphor also can be appropriate for lives, um just as your example of
00:27:56
Speaker
medically assisted suicide brings out. And that being so, I think it's it's just another way to say that life is an indifferent and that it's being a good person that matters for humans, just as being a good book that matters for ah authors or for books, I should say, but writing a good book is what matters for for authors and that there are some excellent works that are short, excellent works that are you know absolute tomes. But it's not the length itself that that makes a difference.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, I'm happy with that. in that like When you present it that way, it seems fine to me. right like ah you know you You look at somebody who's old and miserable and cruel and it's been nothing but like crappy to the people around them and that person's a hundred and then you look at somebody who was you know wonderful and ah died young. You wouldn't neither prefer to be the old miserable person nor would you praise that person more than the wonderful person who died young. That all adds up to me and it all makes sense. um So I guess on board with it being an indifferent
00:29:06
Speaker
but But we'll still, like any indifference, still choose to prolong it in so far as it doesn't require a sacrifice of other things, right um right right? That's all a bit abstract, but it's just to say that like, yeah, this point is right.
00:29:23
Speaker
um ah seneca's Seneca's point is right. But the difference it makes, I guess, is in is one in terms of indifference. And it makes a difference in terms of indifference.
00:29:34
Speaker
um I don't know. maybe Maybe it's just a part of stoophilosity I haven't internalized fully and I'm still wrestling with. Yeah. Well, one way to put your point in stoic language. um'm I'm not yet sure if you're pushing it.
00:29:48
Speaker
one against a stoic point or just a kind stoic framing.
Significance vs. Universal Existence in Stoicism
00:29:52
Speaker
so So one way to put your point in stoic language is that you know what Marcus has translated here is saying, do not then consider life a thing of any value. And I think your point is that thoughts like that can cause you, or at least suggest,
00:30:12
Speaker
making mistakes when it comes between deciding between indifference would not be the stoic way to put it is that you're undervaluing life ease even as an indifferent and the you know stoic criticism of of the of this common framing is that ah the Stoics didn't value life enough. um Perhaps in another way, people criticize classical Stoic views about and justice or what have you. um They didn't value particular indifference ah accurately. So ah does that does that map onto your point or do you think there's something
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, know i think i think I think Marcus, I think it's coherent to view life as an indifferent, but to have this kind of flippi um have a kind of flippant attitude about like you know what's the difference between three days or three generations is to devalue. I mean, maybe not as an exercise for himself. It would be the same thing about like what's the difference between like eating rotten meat and eating delicious meal.
00:31:21
Speaker
Well, the difference is the difference is you know but how bad it tastes and how nutritious it is. There's clearly a difference. And maybe that's ah an effective, so maybe as a self-exercise for himself, that's effective if he's clinging to life too strong or he's like using it to battle his own fear of death. um But it doesn't stand as ah on its own as an argument, whereas I think Seneca's line does stand better on its own. So I'm happy with that. Gotcha, gotcha.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. I think there's a there's another point here just with a view from above. Perhaps sometimes when people take this larger perspective, there is the risk that you undervalue what's right in front of you.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I think that's that's what you're bringing now is that you shouldn't do that just because you are one animal in the sea of trillions living in one city out of millions and such doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best well in these simple ordinary tasks. Because the flip the flip side is so yeah the flip side is like, what you know, so I can go around murdering people and that's fine, right? Like there's no, um I can go and destroy a hospital or, um you know, starve people because it's just that kind of, there's it's it's like what you're talking about.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like it's like the both the both the holistic view and the individual view is like something you need to balance in stoicism and it's really difficult. So it's like you're one animal in millions or trillions, but that animal still matters. And it's like, how do you balance that? I mean, the stoics talk about oikiosis of that view of you extend your concern like your family to the entire universe.
00:32:59
Speaker
So you take that concern you have for your family, your brothers, your sisters, your parents, your children, and you feel that way for someone across the planet. It's like both balancing the individual and the broad. And I think what this gets here, with your the risk here and the risk and the view from above, as you said, is you lose that perspective of how that that individual still matters. You as an individual still matter.
00:33:21
Speaker
Um, but I'm giving Marcus leeway, as you said, is about, you know, <unk>s he's journaling, right? So it's not a, it's not a self-contained argument for other people. He's reflecting. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's well put. Cool. So let's go to, uh, section 51 always run to the short way and the short way is natural accordingly, say, and do everything in conformity with the soundest reason.
Simplicity and Nature's Path to Tranquility
00:33:48
Speaker
For such a purpose frees a man from trouble and warfare and all artifice and ostentatious display. I like this i like this phrase always run to the short way. That's from a modernized version of the George Long translation. This might be an interesting exercise to look at how some other people put it. Yeah, hazes take the shortest route, the one that nature planned.
00:34:18
Speaker
I think that that's that's nice. Also makes explicit that um sound was translated in sound reason connects with that, of course, the a stoic idea of of nature. Waterfield says translates this as always run the short road. And the short road is the one that's in accord with nature.
00:34:40
Speaker
yeah So what is what is that short road? What's what's Marcus talking about here? It's a metaphor he uses a few times. actually this idea of um short way, short road, shortest path. And I think what was is essential here is, rap summarizes this idea, you know do what's right, nothing else matters. And to remember that that's given by your nature, not to over-complicate things with artifice, ostentatious display. Just take a short route to
00:35:18
Speaker
living in accordance with nature.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yeah, I have that idea of it's it's, you know, it's simple, but it's not easy. I like that idea. Don't over complicate it. um That doesn't make it easy, but don't over complicate it.
00:35:38
Speaker
There's um another translation by Hicks. Always run the shortest course, the one laid out by nature. This will enable you to speak and act sensibly. It'll free you from bickering and petty ambition, and it will remove your anxieties and affectations. And I think that's that's a that's a good reminder to to end on, I think. there's not I don't have as much to say in terms of, well, it's so complex or context specific, but it's just a, yeah, it is that reminder to don't, don't overcomplicate it, which is, which is half the battle. I think, especially if you're philosophically inclined, you can sometimes make things complicated and just cut through it. Right. Like the, so the Gordian knot, just get to the core of it, which is often pretty like intuitive and obvious. And it's just figuring out, just convincing yourself to actually do it.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Like this very rarely in my own. I mean, now I'm not ending because I'm discussing it, but there's very rarely in my own life am I confused about what to do.
Decision-Making Through Simplicity
00:36:50
Speaker
and Most of the time I'm just like stressed about doing what I know I have to do. um There are very few moments of genuine dilemma.
00:37:00
Speaker
um And I like that as a reminder is that like you know the difficulty in life is often just like following through on what you said you were going to do, doing what you know is right. It's much less often actually figuring out the right thing to do.
00:37:15
Speaker
Right, right. I think another nice section that brings us out for meditations is 418. How much freedom is gained if a man ignores what his neighbor said or did or intended and considers only what he himself is doing and how to make his actions just and right. The kind of things a good man would do. Don't let your attention be caught by the darkness of others' humors. Just run straight on the line with no ungainly movements.
00:37:40
Speaker
So there against that metaphor of moving straight on the road, on the stoic path. And an example, I think of a possible distraction, what your neighbors say. And, uh, Marcus Aurelius reminding himself, just do what a good man would do. That's it. Simple. Awesome. Awesome. Anything else? No, thanks. It's always a lot of fun.
00:38:07
Speaker
Cool. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for listening. Bye all. for listening to stoic conversations please give us a rating on apple podcasts or spotify and share it with a friend if you want to dive deeper still search doa in the app store or play store for a complete app with routines meditations and lessons designed to help people become more Stoic.
Closing and Listener Engagement
00:38:32
Speaker
And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.