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Seneca’s Medea | Revenge, Violence, and Stoicism (Episode 176)
301 Plays9 hours ago
Seneca's brutal play "Medea" reveals what happens when rage takes control. A betrayed wife, an indecisive husband, and a tragic ending that challenges Stoic ideals.
In this episode, Caleb and Michael analyze Seneca's bloody retelling of the Medea myth - where passion overcomes reason with devastating consequences.
Dana Gioia on Seneca and The Madness of Hercules (Episode 74)
(04:28) Historical Background
(06:43) The Story of Medea's Revenge
(17:08) Character: Fortune Takes Wealth, Not Spirit
(21:27) Not Just a Moment's Madness
(26:36) How Anger Warps Reality
(33:44) Satisfying Madness
(36:02) The Intoxication of Rage
(38:41) What's Up With Jason?
(46:03) Seneca's Court Experience
(50:43) Brutal Ending: "There Are No Gods"
(58:57) Outro
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Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Focus on Seneca's 'Medea'
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley. And today we're going to be talking about something we've we've never done anything like this before. but We're going to be talking about one of Seneca's plays. the famous Stoic philosopher and statesman, Seneca, also wrote plays. And we'll be talking about one of those, Medea's plays. I should say we have a had I had an episode with Dana Joya where we talked about one of Seneca's plays, but this is the first episode between the two of us who are going to be talking about ah Seneca's fictional work.
Comparing Roman Movies and Seneca's Play
00:00:43
Speaker
yeah so We did like our our gladiator review back in the day. we did a through We've done some movie reviews, 300. Now this is like ah Roman movies. you know This is what they would go to watch.
00:00:55
Speaker
um So ah yeah, same kind of thing. little exploration of the themes or the ideas. and It cuts both ways, right? So there's both the Stoic themes in in the play.
00:01:06
Speaker
And then as as you pointed out, also written by Seneca. so also written by a Stoic. And um we can try to we'll try to psychologize a bit about his themes or what he was trying to get at with this story.
00:01:19
Speaker
Also just fun. I've never read ah and ancient play before. i come from a philosophy background, but not a classics background. So... um I mean, i've I've read bits and pieces ah before, especially when i was when I was doing ancient Greek.
00:01:36
Speaker
um or we We would like you know read a bit of um a bit of plays, but never one backed to never completely in in English. and Yeah, it was enjoyable. I thought it was i thought it was interesting.
00:01:48
Speaker
i've you know Easier to read than Shakespeare, I'll say that. made more Made more sense to me than the Shakespeare I've tried to read. um Yeah, any other context before we we jump into it?
Philosophical Themes in 'Medea'
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, we'll be talking about Medea. It's a little more gruesome, so be be prepared. ah And then, ah well, i just I suppose, broadly speaking, I think fictional work, and we should maybe should have some longer discussions about this. I know we' just certainly gestured about this before, but stories, fiction and such, I think is perhaps an underrated way to get at philosophical themes.
00:02:27
Speaker
So... and Maybe that's something we don't do enough is think about philosophy through stories, through myths. And that's, I suppose we'll take a stab at doing that, see how Seneca did that, and see how we can respond to Seneca's work as Stoics today.
00:02:48
Speaker
we'll also, we'll also get into the plot in a moment. So kind of start with an overview of the plot and then go into some of the, the stoic themes that come out of it.
Medea's Passion and Stoic Ideas
00:02:56
Speaker
Um, but it's an interesting story in particular because it's about and spoiler, spoiler alert, but it's, it's about the extreme passion, extreme rage and grief on the part of Medea.
00:03:12
Speaker
And, um, you know, the Stoics have this view of nobody does wrong willingly. um Epictetus even explicitly refers to Medea as an example of this. Somebody who, you know, in in her grief and rage is driven to do these terrible things, um kill her own children to get back at her at her husband, as as we'll see.
00:03:37
Speaker
um But also somebody who who thinks they're acting in a justified manner, who thinks this is the right way to act. And so, I, it's, it's, uh, you know, there, there, there might be this temptation. I mean, we'll get into as we get into the plot, but there might be this temptation to say, Oh, a stoic is writing about an emotional person.
00:03:53
Speaker
They're probably just like judging this person or they're probably, um making it like this very traditional kind of tragedy where the person gets angry and then the, their life turns poorly because of their anger.
00:04:07
Speaker
And I think it's a bit more sympathetic than that. And I didn't take Medea as kind of a caricature. it's it's It's not a black and white story in that sense. um And you kind of do feel and empathize for Medea, even though it is um ultimately a tragedy because, you know, she's not it's not a happy way to live for anybody.
Comparison of Seneca and Euripides' 'Medea'
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So let's get into it. Let's get into some of the background. So Seneca was writing these plays probably around 50 AD or so. This is a retelling of a play by Euripides of the same name. But of course, the story precedes Euripides' version.
00:04:45
Speaker
I believe the first mention of Medea is in Hesiod's Theogony. So that was around the 9th century or so. ah So it's the kind of story that people have pulled again and again. That's really old.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So probably in different versions. So I think, you know, people, they when they talk about Seneca, they often see him as a little more black and white, over the top, more focused on the sensational, the violent.
00:05:12
Speaker
You can almost think of him as Quentin Tarantino almost, where it's a focus on, in many of his plays, yeah know, almost the...
00:05:23
Speaker
The lurid, detailed, long speeches people give about their anger, their desire for vengeance. culminating in so many of these plays and and violence and spectacle. So that's how Seneca's generally seen. Euripides, people have historically seen his version of Medea as a little more nuanced.
00:05:45
Speaker
Whether or not that's correct, I think, is another matter, but there's little more nuance, more sympathy ah with Medea, perhaps. I think the the chorus is perhaps more sympathetic towards Medea than it is in Seneca's version.
00:05:56
Speaker
But of course, i think one could say a lot about this, but I think that's just to give us a sense of very initial sense about how Seneca is different is he has this you know or ornate rhetorical style, very skilled.
00:06:10
Speaker
So many of these rhetorical flourishes and he sort of uses that in a way that if you like Seneca's plays, you think they're awesome spectacle with these cosmic themes.
00:06:23
Speaker
If you don't like his work as much, think you think they're just a little over the top or overwrought and so on. So that's a little bit about his style, I suppose.
00:06:33
Speaker
but, and and and some background on on the story, but yeah yeah we should ah definitely get into yeah the actual the outline of this of this myth.
Jason's Betrayal and Consequences
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I also, I mean, one thing, other thing to to that is I just always think it's cool because Euripides is writing, if you're not familiar with his work, um he's writing, i was just just looking it up, this won prize, the original Medea in 430 So Seneca's writing almost 500 years later.
00:07:03
Speaker
almost five hundred years later
00:07:06
Speaker
And so it's, it's almost like somebody retelling ah Shakespeare, like making a movie based on Romeo and Juliet today or something like that. Like it's a, it's retelling of something hundreds of years ago that that's been quite popular and kind of the myth, the mythos or the culture of the time.
00:07:22
Speaker
Um, a a little bit of a different spin on it. So plot overview and, and Caleb jump into, to, um, direct or, or add perspective as we go here. So, um,
00:07:37
Speaker
the the The real setup is you've got Jason... jason Jason, just a normal guy. um he he He abandons his wife, Medea, um marrying the daughter of the king of Corinth.
00:07:52
Speaker
um So that it begins the play kind of begins with this betrayal. So Medea married to Jason. um They have children together. And then Jason basically splits up with her, breaks her heart.
00:08:10
Speaker
Um, it's a bit more complicated though. So Jason, he claims, Hey, he's been picked for this marriage and that he'd be killed if he refuses. So Medea comes and talks to Jason is like, how could you do this?
00:08:25
Speaker
Um, you've kind of betrayed me. And he's like, I, he, he kind of tries to sell himself as a sympathetic person. He's like, look, the, the King of Corinth, um, asked me to marry his daughter. And if I said no, I'd be killed. So I'm i'm i'm really trying to like um do what's best here. I'm trying to find a compromise.
00:08:44
Speaker
And I've also gone and negotiated Medea for your survival so like so that you wouldn't be executed and that you'll be exiled instead instead of killed.
00:08:54
Speaker
So Jason views himself not as a bad guy. He views himself really as a victim of circumstance, but Medea's not super happy about it. um And then fearing revenge of fearing the kind of anger or bitterness of Medea, the king exiles Medea. So that's that's why he would have killed her. Jason negotiates just for the exile.
Medea's Revenge Plan
00:09:15
Speaker
and And when she's leaving, she has this this really emotional conversation with Jason. It's basically like, you I still love you. kate Will you come with me? Will you leave? And Jason refuses.
00:09:25
Speaker
And so Medea is exiled and leaves Jason and her two children in Corinth. So that's kind of the the the start of the play. So just a really sad situation, I would say.
00:09:37
Speaker
And then when Medea leaves, she plots for revenge. So she plots for revenge. She's she's angry. she's She's not happy about this. um And then her hears her style of revenge, she does some magic. She curses a robe and she sends that robe to Jason's new wife-to-be, so Jason's new partner, the you know the prince ah the princess of Corinth.
00:10:04
Speaker
And when Jason's wife receives the robe, it bursts into flames when she puts it on. Her dad, the king, he runs in to save her and he dies as well. um So Medea's acted out her plan for revenge.
00:10:17
Speaker
And after this magic robe bursts into flames, the fire spreads through the palace. The city is on fire. um She's really achieved her revenge. But that's not sufficient.
00:10:30
Speaker
It doesn't just end there. Medea's also snuck back
The Gruesome Act of Medea
00:10:34
Speaker
into the city. And then in this really dramatic scene on top of a on top of a building, Medea's snuck back into the city. She's kidnapped her two children and she's decided to kill her children to get back at Jason. I really want to make Jason suffer.
00:10:49
Speaker
It's not sufficient just for his new fiance to be killed. I've got to do something that's really going to hurt him. The thing that is really going to hurt him is the death of his children, even though they're her own children.
00:11:04
Speaker
Um, and so she kills the first, she kills her first child. It's very sad. She's sad about it, but is like, well, I just have to do this. And then Jason kind of sees her and is like, whoa, what's going on?
00:11:16
Speaker
Um, please don't do this. This is terrible. um you know, kill me instead. and Medea is like, no, I'm not going to kill you instead because my goal is to make you suffer.
00:11:27
Speaker
So I'm going then she then kills her second child in front of him. which really sad. um And then Jason's like, well, at least kill me so that I don't have to like live with this grief. Just like end it then get your revenge by murdering me.
00:11:45
Speaker
And she's just, this is like the kind climactic final scene of the play. Medea is just like, no, i won't. um And then she calls down a chariot from the gods and she rides away into heaven.
00:12:01
Speaker
I've quoted the last line before, ah last line lower, and we'll get to it. But Jason just exclaims something like, you know, there there are no gods. Like this is is just a terrible, terrible world.
00:12:13
Speaker
And that's the end. That's This is the happy story. Yeah, that's the end. It's a tragedy. And Seneca's tragedies often end, I think, the madness of Hercules we've talked about before with very little hope. you know There are no gods.
00:12:29
Speaker
Almost a questioning really of the Stoic view. There's no no providence in this world. you know Some have said that this world mirrors more Seneca's day-to-day in the imperial court, a world of but you know backstabbing, treachery, violence, where perhaps it was hard to see ah see the providence of nature.
00:12:55
Speaker
um But yeah, that's that's well i summarized. That's what happens in the play. Some background, a lot of the you know people encountering this play would have known about Jason and Medea as two mythic figures.
00:13:07
Speaker
They would have known about you know their story where you know before this aspect of their life, you can see Jason sort of as an adventurer. He's the and born into a kingdom where he's wrongfully disinherited from his throne and in order to get his throne back he has to do a number of tasks he has bring back the golden fleece um and he basically gets a team together of all-star heroes like like hercules and you can think of jason and his argonauts
00:13:45
Speaker
He goes out and about and you know performs all these heroic deeds in order to get the fleece back. And part of that involves going to Colchis, where he meets the king Aedes and his daughter Medea. And that's where Medea passionately falls in love with him.
00:14:00
Speaker
Some have said she was cursed by Aphrodite to fall in love with him.
00:14:06
Speaker
Like so many... of these stories, you know, the details are different in in every retelling. But she helps Jason trick Aedes, her father. She betrays her father in a way and helps him perform the tasks her father set before Jason.
00:14:28
Speaker
And then ah further it helps Jason escape from Her father is his father tracking her down and tracking them down. In particular, she i think the most shocking thing she does is that she kills her own brother.
00:14:43
Speaker
In the story, they're fleeing via ships and she cuts him up and throws his limbs into the sea so that his father must stop in order to peace back her brother and give him proper burial rites.
00:14:55
Speaker
um And then they're taken to this kingdom of Iolchus. That's where Jason is owed the throne, where Medea also is involved in amount some amount of treachery, ah such that Jason and Medea are then exiled again, and that's where they flee to Corinth, and that's where this story sort of takes off and from Jason's point of view, is in his interest to marry Creon's daughter and hence divorce Medea. And that kicks off these the events of of the play.
00:15:32
Speaker
I mean, it's kind of interesting that, yeah, so they Jason's a pretty important person. There's some historical background there, um or at least mythological background.
00:15:45
Speaker
I mean, it's the, the, anyway, just interesting that this is, these are, these are two quite famous people then by that standard. um And I guess this is like focusing on that last, that very, that very end of things.
00:16:00
Speaker
um Yeah. It's just kind of sad. I don't really like, I'm not usually big on tragedies. um So kind sad. um But I think it's, it's, it's almost, I guess in my terms of reflections on the plot,
00:16:16
Speaker
I mean, when you called it kind of the Quentin Tarantino, I thought that was funny ah because there is like a shockiness to it. Like it is a kind of a depravity of, you know, he's like, well, kill me.
00:16:30
Speaker
And she's just like, no, like um I won't because that's not how to maximize your suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Interested in getting to, do you want to jump into some of the the
Medea's Responsibility and Stoic Views
00:16:41
Speaker
themes that came out? I mean, I enjoyed reading it. I've never read a play before.
00:16:44
Speaker
i think it's worth reading. You could do it it for anyone listening. You can do it in, ah you know, maybe, ah maybe an an an hour or two. um It's not, it's not terribly long and it's, ah it's, um ah it was well-written.
00:16:57
Speaker
Definitely. Yeah. It's not, not long they're not long at all. They're certainly worth leafing through, but um yeah, let's jump into some of the the themes. Cool. So I'm going to just pull out some themes and then pull out some quotes that I think um hit on those themes and specifically Stoic themes.
00:17:19
Speaker
So the first, there's this idea that we're responsible for our character that Seneca sneaks in here. So there's a line, this line 176, Medea's encouraged to calm her rage.
00:17:31
Speaker
And she says, fortune can take away my wealth, but not my spirit. And it's almost like, I thought that was interesting because because typically when you say, well, like we're responsible for a character that's like empowering.
00:17:43
Speaker
um But here she almost calls out, like no, you know it's a very like Epictetus line of, you can you can cut off my head, but only God can control my you know my faculty of choice.
00:17:57
Speaker
But here with the the dark twist of the revenge that's coming, It's almost taking the responsibility for the tragedy, I would say, of, you know, fortune can take away my wealth, but not my spirit. I can keep my spirit and I'm going to use that spirit now to do this terrible thing.
00:18:12
Speaker
So it's kind of maybe the opposite end of being responsible for your character. you you You have this freedom to make good choices, but you also have the responsibility for the bad choices that are coming.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. I think there's a there's also an interesting ah dichotomy about how both about how my Medea and Jason think about fortune. i was wondering, you know fortune to for Medea, she's um impervious to whatever happens externally in a way because she's just possessed by passion.
00:18:45
Speaker
And i think many many of the guardrails for other people that they might have towards their action just don't exist for her. And she's happy to betray others, commit violence in order to fulfill her passion.
00:19:02
Speaker
and So in a sense, she um she almost has ah like a twisted version of the Stoic inner citadel where it's like that having that passion being able to act on it is enough.
00:19:16
Speaker
I think it's, it's, it doesn't, doesn't really work like that because of course the passion is ultimately driven by facts in the external world. The fact that she's being divorced, but there's a ah way in which if you, once you fully are in the grip of passions, then the, even if the external world is what,
00:19:42
Speaker
help kick things off and how you responded to the external world, of course, for the Stoics, uh, what the external world actually is becomes irrelevant to you. And you can just act from, from that passion, from that anger, and with, you know an impervious spirit, which if it was a good emotion to be a, an amazing thing, but if it's a delusional, the belief that's grounding that passion, then of course it's a terrible, terrible thing.
00:20:13
Speaker
Yeah. so they are the, the, the idea something like, well, we, we respond, we develop passions because of facts about the world, or at least our views of those facts. you know I've been harmed. I'm being divorced. I'm being abandoned by my family.
00:20:31
Speaker
But then once you're in that rage, you know, the other facts start, you know, this is actually my child. My child probably doesn't deserve this. ah I have ways of getting back at Jason that doesn't involve harming innocent people. Even these kind of facts, like even if you want to keep up aspect of your anger, you you start being, because you're in the grip of the passion, as you were saying, you're not receptive to facts anymore, even if they cut it, even if they kicked it off, it kind of just carries you along.
00:21:00
Speaker
Right, right. Is that you meant? Yeah, I think so. And I suppose you if you want to tie that to some other Seneca's philosophy, you know he has that analogy to emotions when they really take
Calculated Rage vs. Momentary Passion
00:21:14
Speaker
grip.
00:21:14
Speaker
They're closer to running. And once they get difficult, once you have hit speed, it's going to be harder and harder to slow down. It can take on a life of its own almost.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's something that I wanted to call out. Another one too is that I see rage in this play represented in a way that's also kind of long-term. Like one way to do a ah ah ah play about rage, you know, Medea walks in and Jason's in bed with another woman and there's this crime of passion, you know, and that's that's that really...
00:21:50
Speaker
That's one way to do it is like you're blinded. You're not thinking. you're acting. But this is, you know, she leaves. She concocts the plan. She executes the plan. She doesn't really feel anything.
00:22:03
Speaker
Like she doesn't feel doubt. um Maybe there's, maybe i've I've only read it once. Maybe there is some doubt when killing her children. i seem to remember it more as just like, ah this is unfortunate that this is what has to be done.
00:22:16
Speaker
But it is what has to be done. um And so there they're I don't know if cold is the right term for it I don't know if you describe Medea as cold, but it's definitely like long term. It's definitely calculating. um I have this quote here.
00:22:30
Speaker
line 382. This is line three hundred and eighty two this is a nurse who got a conversation with medea And the nurse says, where the weight of her wrath inclines, where it aims its threats, hangs still in doubt.
00:22:43
Speaker
She threatens, seized with rage, complains, groans aloud. Where will this wave break itself? Madness overflows its bounds. No simple or halfway crime does she ponder in her heart.
00:22:58
Speaker
She will outdo herself. Um... And there's there's something there about it's both the madness is overflowing its bounds, but she's also pondering.
00:23:10
Speaker
Like she's also constructing a plan. and that's it. We don't really, we don't normally think of angry people as constructed. Maybe, maybe we do, but like rage and plans.
00:23:22
Speaker
i don't know that I thought that was, i thought there was something interesting there. you Do you get what I'm getting at? It's like, it's very hot, but also over, over a long-term period.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think so. She... um Yeah, as as you say, it's not a crime of a single moment. And i think I think this gets to the fact that, you know, the Senate, you might think about why why are the Stoics focusing on, or why would a Stoic ever write a play like this?
00:23:54
Speaker
and Many reasons, but one might be just to explore and get a better sense or to better portray vices like anger and do perhaps get some get some approach some insight by taking extreme version of it and i see medea of course is someone who is you know anger is sort of ingrained into her character and it's a kind of
00:24:26
Speaker
desire to see others suffer, obviously Jason here. But you know you have this sense from her interactions with the nurse that this is not something people were surprised by. you know It wasn't like, oh my goodness, how is this how could this you know some some how Some characters might break in terms of anger, but for Medea, this is not out of the script, as it were.
00:24:54
Speaker
That she would be furious and then dangerous and feeling wronged. So I think that gets to that point about seeing... Anger not as a momentary flash, but as something that at its worst, wrath, it can become a part of one's character and live with you through time, shaping your life.
00:25:19
Speaker
not just for day to day, but, you know, through years at its worst, I suppose, you know, we read different, in other fictional accounts, you can read know read about angry characters. And it's just like, that's just an angry, at a certain point, someone just becomes an angry person, you know, or perhaps you've met someone like that in your life where you just have a sense of their, that's not,
00:25:43
Speaker
a moment of frustration they're expressing, but ah something deep, a deep kind of anger within them that Seneca's perhaps capturing here with Medea as well.
00:25:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's great point. i Maybe something that i'm I don't think I'm a very angry person. I like i say that with all, I think I have issues like anybody else and ah you know vices, but i anger is not doesn't strike me as one of them. and i But I do get frustrated or you do, as you said, get kind of angry in the moment.
00:26:16
Speaker
And this is maybe pointing to that that viciousness where that anger um really solidifies or calluses as Epictetus might put it as a metaphor. I also thought, i mean, we're going to just talk a lot about Medea's anger, or the nature of her anger and what Seneca is trying to say about it as a Stoic who writes on anger.
00:26:36
Speaker
um thought this was this interesting point. There was this interesting passage or this idea that, you know, when we are enraged or when we become angry people, we take on this distorted
Distorted Justice vs. Stoic Restraint
00:26:49
Speaker
view of the world. This kind of connects with what we're saying.
00:26:51
Speaker
It's not just the, again, because it's connected to how we think about the world. It's not just, oh, you're an angry person. It's like, well, you think about the world in a distorted way. And um when Medea is talking to the nurse, she's describing the injustices she's experienced by her husband marrying another woman.
00:27:11
Speaker
And she says, quote, can it be that unavenged I should endure this royal wedding? Shall this day go idly by so anxiously besought, so anxiously bestowed?
00:27:22
Speaker
And these are rhetorical questions. You're basically being like, could I go through this wedding without getting revenge? Can I like go through this day and not do anything? And these are rhetorical questions that her answer is like, obviously not.
00:27:35
Speaker
Obviously I have to do something, but I just thought there was kind of an irony there because the Stoic is, the Stoic would say, obviously, yes, you know, obviously you can go through the wedding and do nothing.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yes, you can endure this day. um you know, they may even say, because the Stoic will go so far as to say, because you haven't been harmed, But it's just like, even the, even the person with the enraged character is still developed. Even Medea has this way of thinking about the world. It's just what the answers to these questions seem obvious to her. They're just wrong.
00:28:11
Speaker
It's like, no, I can't. I think about this, you know, you think about this with somebody, i don't know. Sometimes you see this and kind of like um with guys, it's like, you know I've been insulted.
00:28:22
Speaker
can I just like put up with that without, know, fighting that person or without, you know, uh, yeah, like going to blows with them. Um, and the answer is like, yes, you, I mean, you can, that's always an option.
00:28:37
Speaker
It's always the second handle you can pick things up by. um and so I thought that was like, she obviously doesn't see it that way, but reading it as a stoic, there's just that, there's just a different way to answer those questions.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, and the the point of connecting anger to madness is right. I think Seneca does a good job, especially towards the end where Medea's soliloquy sort of reach a point where it's clear that anger is almost intoxicated in an intoxicated state and taking glee from her or wickedness, as it were.
00:29:10
Speaker
um One thing you did mention is ah whether she expresses doubt.
Medea's Internal Conflict
00:29:17
Speaker
There is one moment, this is around Lynaum,
00:29:23
Speaker
925 or so towards the very end, I think this is the fifth act where she's talking about her rage. She know has a little bit of ah a long long speech on her madness, what she's planning to do to kill her children.
00:29:40
Speaker
And then she stops and says, awful. It hits my heart. My body turns to ice. My chest is heaving. Anger has departed. The wife in me is gone. I am all mother again.
00:29:53
Speaker
Is this me? Could I spill my own children's blood, flesh of flesh? No, no, what terrible madness.
00:29:59
Speaker
And there's a brief pause where you know the anger is gone. She says, why am I led in two directions? Now by anger, now by love, my double inclination tears me apart.
00:30:13
Speaker
As when the wild winds make their brutal wars, and on both sides the seas lift up discordant waves, and the unstable water boils, even so my heart tosses and churns. Love is chased out by rage, and rage by love.
00:30:27
Speaker
Resentment yield to love. And she almost does give way to love until she you know she remembers that she will lose her children regardless. And there's a sense of hatred at Jason for her.
00:30:43
Speaker
taking the joy of her children where she cannot no longer have her children now that she's in exile.
00:30:49
Speaker
She says, but I must go in exile any minute. They will be ripped from my arms, weeping and wailing. Let their father lose their kisses. Their mother has already lost them. Again, my anger grows. My hatred boils.
00:31:02
Speaker
And that her doubt is gone at that point. And she continues to Yeah, that's sad. Go on with her with her madness, as it were.
00:31:15
Speaker
um I mean, you got that original, that kind of like self-destructive nature of like, if I can't have you, nobody can, which we still see today. um But then there's also, I think from a Stoic view, there's that idea of role ethics. I like that line of like, what is it? i I'm mother, no longer wife. or i'm just you You just mentioned it.
00:31:37
Speaker
you know you're, you're, you're viewing your betrayal through the lens of wife and you're getting revenge through the lens of wife when obviously what you're doing is betraying the role of mother.
00:31:49
Speaker
Absolutely. Uh, something interesting there.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's right. And that, Yeah, obviously, or would you say takes precedence? Of course, there are other roles. One is violating by killing one's own children. But ah you know I suppose her twisted reasoning is, have lost this role mother regardless, so Jason must lose the role of father. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:17
Speaker
hu I guess so. I mean, I guess that is everybody thinks they're doing right, right? So um ah one one could argue that it would be better to fulfill your role of mother to not stab your children, but I guess she's doing her best.
00:32:36
Speaker
um Yeah, so twisted reasoning. i sort of see Medea as all really an evil character who's just sort of taken up by passion and Seneca sort showing you this is what it looks like if you're completely you know in the grips of madness or or nearly completely you know she um perhaps almost breaks free but and um and i think it would have been important for audiences to sort of understand her history as someone who betrays her father for the sake of jason kills her brother
00:33:13
Speaker
and then Why does she kill her brother? When you were explaining that, why does she kill her brother? The chopping up and throwing it, I was kind of taken aback by that part. what was What was the function of that?
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, the logic is that of that is that Aedes is chasing down Jason and ma Medea. Her father is chasing them down after they flee Colchist. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So the he has them down. And that puts them off the tracks. Yeah.
00:33:35
Speaker
Puts them off their tracks. But the brother was like on her team. Like he was hanging out. Yeah, the brother came with them. He was just chilling and then, yeah.
00:33:45
Speaker
That's terrible. Okay. So she is one to do terrible things for the sake of, i guess, the people she loves. And it has kind of, it can be directed externally or it can be directed at you.
00:33:57
Speaker
um One thing that I wanted to, this is this connects to this idea of madness, of anger as madness. There's some lines here that I would say that Medea's revenge is not about achieving justice, but about appeasing the passion or almost satisfying the madness, the way Seneca writes it.
00:34:14
Speaker
So when, when Jason discovers her at the end of the play, after she's killed their first son, but not the second, um, Jason says this to her and they have a conversation Jason goes by all the gods, by our flight together, by our marriage couch, to which I have not been faithless.
00:34:30
Speaker
Then he hasn't consummated this new relationship yet. Spare the boy. If there is any guilt, it is mine. i give myself up to death. Destroy my guilty head. Okay.
00:34:41
Speaker
And Medea says, here, ah where you do forbid it, where it will grieve you, will I plunge the sword? Go now, haughty man, take the maids for wives, abandon mothers.
00:34:54
Speaker
And then Jason says, one is enough, one is enough for punishment. Medea says, if this hand could be satisfied with the death of one, it would have sought no death at all. Though I slay two, still is the count too small to appease my grief.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah. I think there's something interesting. is there there It's not like a calculus. It's like, um, I've got to just maximize pain, not because you deserve it.
00:35:23
Speaker
Um, almost, yeah, almost because it's unjust, right. i almost like because you forbid it because your argument to kill you instead makes sense. I'm going to do it anyway.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah. So I think it's, uh, ah so So it makes like you're trying to satisfy the anger, but it's something that cannot be satisfied. Satisfied. Yeah. Right. It's just so like the inverse of a hedotic treadmill.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah. The suffer, the suffer treadmill or the, um, really a sadistic treadmill. Yeah, totally. Totally.
00:36:04
Speaker
And then one other one other thing that I wanted to call out that Seneca says about anger is he hits on here that it can feel righteous, that it can feel good. Righteous brings in those like ideas of justice, but at least that it can feel good. It can feel pleasurable when you're in the to do bad things when you're in the grips of this madness or this passion.
00:36:24
Speaker
So um the nurse warns Medea. She says to Medea around line 425, win back thy woe troubled heart, my mistress, calm thy soul.
00:36:35
Speaker
Medea says, the only calm for me, if with me I see the universe overwhelmed in ruins. With me, let all things pass away. Tis sweet to drag others down when thou art perishing.
00:36:50
Speaker
um So there's almost this this there's this appeal Seneca is making to the pleasure of it, or the sweetness at least, of getting that revenge.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i think it's the intoxicating effect of of anger Seneca's pointing at. And and the the spectacle of this play, you Medea's scary. She's a horrifying figure.
00:37:13
Speaker
And perhaps, you know, Seneca's gesturing at the scary element in anger itself, right? Even a little bit of anger is the same kind of thing that drives Medea mad.
00:37:27
Speaker
And, uh, obviously this is an extreme example, but I think all of us have, like have cases where we've been angry and later shamed at at what we've done and sort of the grips of anger as it were.
00:37:40
Speaker
Because in the moment, you know, it feels just, it feels right. And this, uh, those feelings, you know Seneca might be pointing us towards resisting, you know resisting righteous anger, seeing it instead as you know the scary force, one of the worst of the passions.
00:38:01
Speaker
Do you think that's what's going on here? Do you think this is a simple case study? like Is that what you think
Madness of Anger and Passion
00:38:10
Speaker
Seneca's doing here? This is a case study of just a mad person?
00:38:13
Speaker
And that is just like instructive as a stoic tool of like, hey, don't be like this? Are there any other kind of themes you pick up? Well, I think that's one way to read it and certainly the most obvious way to read it.
00:38:26
Speaker
ah Another theme you touched on is Epictetus thinking about mentioning Medea and how she's doing the best by her lights. Yeah. where perhaps a little bit deeper into some of those stoic ideas of emotion.
00:38:41
Speaker
think there are also questions around Jason. So like, you know, Jason is in a sense, a more complicated character than Medea where I see Medea almost, you know, purely possessed by passion.
00:38:57
Speaker
There's the question, you knowre like what's up with Jason? Why is he divorcing her? Why do you choose to exile her?
00:39:04
Speaker
I don't know. What are your impressions about him as a character?
00:39:10
Speaker
o I mean, maybe that's the tragedy. like one way to So one thing to do is like maybe if you view it through like a male-centric lens... um I don't know. like ah it's interesting Basically, because it's interesting to have this complex female character as a lead, but then you're like, I think, you know well, is this was was this is this is this an attempt to be not progressive because they wouldn't have thought of things that way, but were they were they focusing on this or is Medea maybe like this force of nature that then the male character is dealing with, which is Jason?
00:39:44
Speaker
And so is there a lesson about Jason's behavior, I guess, is what is maybe what you're asking, which might be, well, he's kind of a bad person and he kind of gets what's coming to him when he's a bad person. And, and, you know, he's not, um, like Epictetus gives that example of like the tyrant comes asking for your head and you say, well, take my head. Right.
00:40:06
Speaker
And instead Jason's like, well, don't take my head. Uh, you know, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll marry your daughter. It's all good. And, uh, I'll negotiate a good position for my wife because I feel guilty about things.
00:40:19
Speaker
And it's like, is is this kind of a warning around playing the... i don't know, the guy who justifies himself as being... Who who who doesn't make the hard choices, but then...
00:40:33
Speaker
Yeah, isn't able to look that in the face and just kind of it doesn't, yeah, Jason just doesn't doesn't live up to the stoic goal of virtue, um even though he's a more sympathetic character than Medea. He's not killing his children.
00:40:46
Speaker
And then maybe this is the punishment that comes with that. don't know. That might be a bit harsh. Yeah, I think, um well, I don't think, you know, I don't, i don't it's in a sense in a tragedy. so i don't know if you have the idea that Jason deserves what's coming to him.
00:41:04
Speaker
At the same time, he's not completely innocent. right he as I think what you what you said about his almost refusal to take make hard choices points that perhaps it's flawed. There's this dialogue between Medea and Jason, which is instructive.
00:41:31
Speaker
Where Jason asks, what crime in the end can you charge me with? Medea said, all I have done. Jason said, ah, that was all I needed, that your crimes would be treated as my fault.
00:41:44
Speaker
Medea responds, they are yours, yours. If I gain from a crime, you did it. Jason says, a life of which one feels ashamed is an unwelcome gift.
00:41:56
Speaker
Skipping a few lines, of course, but essentially saying, look, sort of really changing the subject, he says, the things you did for me are things I feel ashamed of now. Medea responds, one who feels ashamed of life need not cling to it.
00:42:10
Speaker
And then Jason says, I disagree. You need to tame your heart too quick to anger, make peace with our sons. Where Medea's argument there is, look, you've accepted the results of me betraying my father, betraying my brother, ah tricking Peleus.
00:42:30
Speaker
And these you know these crimes are, in a sense, yours. And then Jason says, well, I'm ashamed of those crimes. And Medea makes us the stoic point, really, which is like if you're ashamed of your life so deeply, you need not cling to it.
00:42:44
Speaker
but You see Jason almost says, he's not he hasn't decided whether he's going to hold the chamber pot or not. right's good going Back to Epictetus, where Epictetus says, you know you make the choice and then You stick with it.
00:42:59
Speaker
And he's trying to benefit from Medea's vices while perhaps avoiding the all the you know the costs that come with what she's done.
00:43:14
Speaker
And also in the fact that he negotiated an exile, right? wife Perhaps he should have not divorced her at all. But he knows Medea. Why did he let her live if Jerusalem and if he was truly ashamed shame by her crimes and such.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah. Why not just have her killed? so go full Go full virtuous or full vicious. Right. Like the fully vicious guy is just, oh, great. Here's my chance out. Let's have Medea executed. And then the full virtuous is like, well, no, I'm not going to divorce my wife, ah even if there's consequences. And he he picks this kind of middle ground where, you know, yeah, I'm going to take Medea's help, but I'm not going to stand by her when push comes to shove. I'm going to be kind of embarrassed and ashamed and guilty.
00:44:00
Speaker
Yeah, it is interesting now looking at the... um Now that you bring in that earlier context of... you know Is there a way of him looking at this as his out? you know I was putting weight maybe on that, like, oh, I'd be killed or I'd be dangerous. But if Medea is such a villain, you know is he seeing this as his opportunity to position climb, his opportunity to get out of...
00:44:20
Speaker
a passionate but tumultuous relationship with somebody who, you know, um maybe kind of scares him and he kind of picks this, I guess, middle road that isn't to the benefit of anybody.
00:44:35
Speaker
Certainly not to the benefit of his kids, let's say. Yeah, certainly not. And like one one other point, and i I mentioned that they have different views of fortune. The first line from Jason are, let me find them.
00:44:47
Speaker
And they're related to this.
00:44:51
Speaker
First lines from Jason are, my luck is always bad and my and fate is always cruel, just as bad to me in kindness or in anger. How often gods find for us anecdotes worse than the threatened pain.
00:45:06
Speaker
So he sort of enters in this woe is me type state, which you can see is sort of perhaps that attitude that might take you to more... um to cowardice really, I suppose, or failing to make those hard decisions. What you think? you know I've been pushed these ways pushed around by by fortune.
00:45:29
Speaker
my My luck is awful.
00:45:32
Speaker
Instead of Medea, who has the opposite view you know fortune, fortune doesn't matter. I'm going to exert my wrath, exercise my wrath on the world.
00:45:44
Speaker
you know Jason hasn't responded to fortune properly still maybe trying to sneak through with getting all getting all the benefits pay none of the costs or at least you know trying to do that in a way that's it's not realistic
00:46:03
Speaker
yeah i like that i mean i like this reading It makes it less about, I mean, you can be both at the same time, but it makes it a bit less about Medea and her psychology and a bit more about, um as you said, maybe this is not as a tragedy.
Jason's Moral Cowardice
00:46:19
Speaker
It's not Jason getting what he deserves, but he's being somewhat complicit in it.
00:46:25
Speaker
um
00:46:28
Speaker
It also makes, i mean, you were also giving the political reading at the start of Seneca is aware of, of you know, the life in the court, the betrayals. And this is much more of kind of a cynical, don't know, maybe not cynical, but um that reading where you with the focus on Jason points more, I think, to the political view of, of well, you know, you can't you can't ah try to have your cake and eat it too, right? Like you can't you can't employ somebody to
00:47:00
Speaker
I don't know, assassinate your enemies or bribe, um but not, as you said, have the good fortunes, but not pay the costs, which are kind of the things that um that Jason's doing, which is like using Medea when it's expedient or beneficial to him and then kind of discarding her and neither neither doing so acknowledging like, yeah, I'm a bad guy and I'm going to kill my wife when it's been my interests, nor standing by her just kind of, hmm,
00:47:29
Speaker
that's an Yeah, I like that. I like that reading. yeah Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's James Rahm as well in his biography of Seneca who says another play of Seneca is on the story of Thaestes, where Thaestes sort of starts almost in an idyllic type scenario with his children and then is called back to meet his brother, something he knows is not a good idea.
00:47:56
Speaker
and take his children with him. And of course, in another tragedy that ensa ends in death. ah But he's called back perhaps by a political ambition and of such. And I think it's Rom who asks, you know does this these sorts of notes, do they echo in Seneca's life? You know, something he's wrestling with, this desire to be know an ambitious, successful Roman statesman.
00:48:18
Speaker
with the desire to almost accept you know his exile in early life and you'll be the philosopher instead of trying to climb back into Roman power, which he eventually does and then gets the benefits for doing so and then pays the price for doing so as well. So that's, um I think, another sort of political angle on this angle that relates to Seneca's own life.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, that...
00:48:49
Speaker
It's kind of sad, sad in a different way. Um, maybe because, and maybe we all can do that, but I can kind of empathize with that, with the trying to, the stoic view. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm happy to call this the chamber pot. re of either like do the bad thing and accept the consequences or do the good thing and accept the consequences.
00:49:11
Speaker
But you know don't be kind of, woe is me because I'm holding the chamber pot or because I'm not. like you don't don't Don't pick one and complain, which is kind of jason where where Jason is.
00:49:24
Speaker
And as you said, resonates with Seneca's life as well, where he's given these these moments of choice um between... Yeah, maybe a political and a philosophical life and has to commit.
00:49:37
Speaker
Yeah, i think so.
Political Commentary in 'Medea'
00:49:38
Speaker
And I think I've been reading The Prince lately. So Prince is obviously inspired by Machiavelli, but sometimes the... ah
00:49:47
Speaker
failing to do the bad thing is sometimes, and not not doing the virtuous thing, but trying to strike this middle way is often worse than just doing the bad thing. Yeah. Where, you know, often better to be decisive, cruel prince than weak one who, you know, slowly destroys their city or lets, let's you know, the elements he should have crushed ah grow and foster until,
00:50:16
Speaker
worse things happen. you know In this story, Midia ends up setting fire to the city, killing people who end up dead who would have been alive if Jason had just taken the harsher step. So that's ah it's not endorsing that step, but ah perhaps it is at least saying relative to what Jason tried to do. It it does seem like it would have been a better choice.
00:50:42
Speaker
Yeah. One thing I wanted to hit on um as as we wrap up, I think that distinction is really good one.
Medea's Escape and Conclusion
00:50:50
Speaker
um I just want to, for those that haven't read it yet, read out the the ending because for me it is like the most hardcore ending of maybe anything ever that I've engaged with. It's just, just brutal.
00:51:03
Speaker
Um, so, um, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll read the passage then if you get your reaction, um, caleb um So this is the very these are the very last lines of the play.
00:51:16
Speaker
um This is when Medea is about to kill the second child, and Jason's begging her to kill him instead. and Jason says, O heartless one, slay me.
00:51:28
Speaker
um Medea says, um Thou bids me pity. and then she kills her second child in front of him. Tis well, tis done. ah had no more atonement to offer thee, O grief.
00:51:41
Speaker
Lift thy tear-swollen eyes hither, ungrateful Jason. Dost recognize thy wife? Tis thus I am wont want to flee. This is an old translation, but um now ah now I want to flee.
00:51:54
Speaker
way through the air has opened for me. Two serpents offer thy scaly necks, bending to the yoke. Now, Father, take back thy sons. She throws the bodies down to him.
00:52:07
Speaker
I through the air on my winged chair shall ride. She mounts the car and is born away. So she she gets carried away in a chariot of the gods. Jason calling after her, go on through the lofty spaces of heaven and bear witness where that thou rides that there are no gods.
00:52:28
Speaker
um just brutal. that's that's the and That's the end of the play. And she's like literally getting carried away in a chariot to heaven by literal gods.
00:52:39
Speaker
And Jason's like, yeah, go tell the gods that there are no gods, which I think is just such a banger of a line. I mean, I should check if Euripides says the same thing. But I just, I love that idea of like,
00:52:50
Speaker
You're literally looking at a God and you're like, no, gods don't exist because that's how messed up this world is. This world, whatever you are, I guess, you're not what we call gods. You know, whoever's carrying Medea away.
00:53:04
Speaker
um
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah, just. Yeah, absolutely. It's a crushing play, really. And this is this is, I think, one part that's hard to square with Seneca stoicism, this sort of hopelessness.
00:53:19
Speaker
ah You could say sort of, you know this is a picture of a positive moral tale about, you know, then showing, you know, positive positives, not the right the right word here, but it's an instructive moral tale about, you know, the damage of wrath, wages of cowardice perhaps, but the ending is really, is empty in a way that
00:53:44
Speaker
must be a doesn't doesn't I think doesn't obviously sit well with traditional Stoicism, certainly.
00:53:52
Speaker
and Maybe it's not Stoic, right? Maybe Seneca's flexing his artist. I'm sure people have thought more about this that know more about Seneca's art than me. Maybe he's just being an artist. He's flexing the kind of ambiguity.
00:54:03
Speaker
He's exploring a story where Stoicism isn't true, um where there is no providence. um And maybe that's not instructive. It's just... um Yeah, just sad.
00:54:17
Speaker
I think so. And you certainly see why someone experiencing these things would would say there are no gods. And that's, I suppose, like the the common challenge to the stoic view. You know, if you think there's providence, why there's so many terrible, horrific things in the world.
00:54:34
Speaker
And this yeah i get voice of that... Like if we had to shove this into a stoic definition, it would be something like, well, it was your fault, Jason. Or, um you know, you perceive this to be a harm when it's not really, but it's kind of like a case study. Like that's the, this is like the kind of thing that non-stoics do.
00:54:53
Speaker
And you're like, well, externals aren't different it's like yeah what if i killed both of your children in front of you and then threw them and like threw them before you would you say nothing bad had happened would you do that stoic it's kind of like one of those like uh thought experiment counter examples um and yeah um
00:55:16
Speaker
who I don't know what's providential about it. i don't think it's I don't think this is a providential universe unless we want to like really blame Jason in a way. I mean, clearly, it goes it's a tragedy. He didn't deserve it. So, I mean, Seneca's probably just messing around, it seems to me, with testing the limits. He's always been like the most eclectic of the famous Stoics, the one most in kind of testing the limits of the thinking here.
00:55:41
Speaker
It is also just a fictional example, right? Like he could use factual examples if he wanted of terrible situations where people's kids die. It is a fictional example that he's kind of that he's playing around with.
00:55:52
Speaker
Yeah, and he does mention historical examples of... There's a letter of Stilpo who Demetrius sacks the city kills his children and wife.
00:56:04
Speaker
And Seneca praises Stilpo's sort of stoic resolve. I think Stilpo says, you took nothing of mine. You took nothing from me in some translations, which is a sort of the stoic view of the inner citadel.
00:56:19
Speaker
Yeah, but that's not what you get here. and that's ah I think it's it's a challenge to the Stoic View, really. Perhaps we you know what's but what's really possible if you're not at this stage or you're not someone like Stilpo yet.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yeah. And anything else you wanted to add on on the on the play?
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah, let me see. Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's, of course, worth reading so Seneca's play. Perhaps we should do another one. they are different. I think they are different from his philosophy and perhaps there's, that's or,
00:56:54
Speaker
or a promising way to start thinking about them. So they're they're not standard stoicism. You can get stoic themes from them, but that's that's only one way to interact with with the ah the plays themselves, which of course are retellings of these stories for which there are you know hundreds of different versions, variations upon variations.
00:57:20
Speaker
So perhaps as a note to end on, is that something I love about these are Greek Roman myths such as that you can always take a slightly different path, tweak a detail here or there and get something new from the story.
00:57:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't they don't teach us about Medea when we're younger. It's all this Disney's Hercules, but where is Disney's Medea? that's what we really like i can see why now. This is like this gets a lot sadder.
00:57:48
Speaker
Although I'm sure Hercules is probably pretty sad too in the original version. think you hit the nail on the head, which is like the headwors which is like
00:57:58
Speaker
there's going to be Stoic themes in any drama or any sort of story because Stoicism is about living. um So any example of life, what we can talk about through a Stoic lens, but these are not kind of, this is not to me a simple Stoic parable or it is not to me just a method of teaching lessons about Stoicism.
00:58:19
Speaker
um Seneca does seem to be offering something artistic here in that it's like, it's not just the, Not just a, well, you know, if you if you get really angry, bad things are going to happen.
00:58:31
Speaker
um Even though we can read it that way, it is ah is a, um yeah, maybe a retelling of this Greek myth um in a way that we can pull, as you said, the stoic lessons from, but not not the only thing you can do with it. An interesting play.
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It stands alone. I think that's a, yeah, that's right. but
00:58:53
Speaker
Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Bill. Thanks, Michael.
00:58:58
Speaker
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00:59:19
Speaker
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00:59:31
Speaker
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