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Stoic Guide to Mastering Desire | Epictetus Handbook 14 (Episode 170)
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Freedom isn't about having enough money to do what you want. It's about wanting what you can actually control. In this episode, Michael breaks down Epictetus's radical handbook chapter 14, revealing the four key principles of Stoic desire – and why wanting the wrong things makes us slaves to circumstance.
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoic Themes
00:00:05
Speaker
is a shorter solo episode on Epictetus's Handbook 14.
The Three Stoic Disciplines
00:00:13
Speaker
Here with Stoic Conversations, our goal is to talk about putting stoicism into practice.
00:00:19
Speaker
And I think this is a really great example of the discipline of desire. So when you want to put stoicism into practice, one of the ways the Stoics one of the ways the stoics thought about it was in terms of three disciplines or three areas of study, discipline of desire, the discipline of action, and the discipline of ascent.
Mastering Desires and Aversions
00:00:41
Speaker
Now the discipline of desire is around mastering what you desire, mastering what you want. So wanting the right things and also ah mastering what the Stokes might call aversion, what you don't want. So being afraid of the right things, putting yourself in a position to avoid or try to avoid the the correct things.
00:01:05
Speaker
um Action is concerned with how we treat people, the the kind of day-to-day decisions we make um that make up a courageous or just life. And then the discipline of assent is around how we come to form our opinions, how we come to form knowledge and our beliefs.
Epictetus's Influence on Philosophy
00:01:25
Speaker
So it's it's it's about the about correctly reflecting, having good epistemological tools so that we come to believe true things and not believe false things. So this is a three-step program. You see this in Epictetus, but it's it's in other stoics. It's in Cicero, it's in Seneca, it's in Marcus Aurelius. um ah it's It's something that came from, it's not just an Epictetus thing.
Impact of Incorrect Desires
00:01:54
Speaker
it's it's ah built-in part of the the stoic program was how they conceptualized self-development and I want to talk about Epictetus's handbook chapter 14 because I think it's a it's almost like a crash course in the discipline of desire and This is one of those If you were beginning stoicism really any level of progress
00:02:20
Speaker
The discipline of desire is so important for um emotional regulation, for dealing with with passions, for dealing with suffering. um Really, a lot of pathos, a lot of these these passions that we want to cut out in stoicism, these wrong ways of thinking about the world are going to come down to our desires, what we judge to be good, what we want And so nailing this is really important. And one thing that we talk about on this podcast a lot is that getting desire wrong has these kind of downstream effects as well. So if you if you desire the wrong kinds of things and then you end up feeling angry or bitter or jealous,
00:03:06
Speaker
um then those passions, those negative emotions that are you know incorrect or irrational as the Stoics might say, those are going to have knockdown effects um and they're going to disrupt your ability to perform the discipline of action properly because they're going to, if you're feeling jealous and angry,
00:03:30
Speaker
It's going to impact your ability to act correctly ah walking through the world and and going about you know your job or your like or your time with your friends.
Insights from Epictetus's Handbook
00:03:39
Speaker
um And if you're angry or jealous, you're going to have a harder time forming correct beliefs.
00:03:46
Speaker
um you know, the way that you think is going to be influenced by the momentum of these passions as the stoic might say, which is really the subjective experience of being angry makes it harder to come to the right conclusions. Same thing with being bitter or jealous or envious or these kinds of things.
00:04:07
Speaker
So with with that context, I'll start off with a description of Chapter 14 from the handbook. And I'll break down what I think are the four most important lessons from it. And we'll end with another reading of the passage and and hopefully the passage.
00:04:25
Speaker
is a bit more meaningful with the context provided, so there's almost a before and after. So this is Epictetus's handbook, Chapter 14. He says, you are foolish if you want your children and your wife and your friends to live forever.
00:04:42
Speaker
since you're wanting things to be up to you that are not up to you, and things to be yours that are not yours. You are stupid in the same way if you want your slave boy to be faultless, since you're wanting badness not to be badness, but something else. But wanting not to fail to get what you desire, this you are capable of.
00:05:07
Speaker
A person's master is someone who has power over what he wants or does not want, either to obtain it or take it away. Whoever wants to be free, therefore, let him not want or avoid anything that is up to others. Otherwise, he will necessarily be a slave.
00:05:28
Speaker
So that's Epictetus's handbook, chapter 14. And like I said, this is really a ah lesson about the discipline of desire. So the handbook are these short summaries of Epictetus's longer lessons, those are the ones you find in the discourses. And this is ah this is one focused on the discipline of desire. And I think there are four main ideas here that Epictetus is hitting on, almost sentence by sentence, you're getting a new idea.
00:05:58
Speaker
The first is that it's foolish to want something that's not up to you. that's That's the first idea. Second is that it's okay to desire what is up to you. So we do have permission to feel desire if it's directed towards what is up to us. The third idea is that anyone who can control what you want or fear can control you.
00:06:23
Speaker
And fourth, the only free people are the ones who only desire the things up to them. So let's explore these ideas in greater detail.
Desiring Within Control
00:06:35
Speaker
Starting with number one, it's foolish to want something that's not up to you. This is Epictetus's line at the start about you're you're foolish if you want your children, your wife, your friends to live forever. You're stupid in the same way if you want your slave boy to be faultless. and you know that's ah That's a dated example, but know if if you think of that as the the people that you work with or people you interact with, um if you want them to not have you know their own problems or their own issues, that's what Epictetus is referring to here.
00:07:10
Speaker
and it's foolish for epictetus because and Stoicism in general thinks this is foolish because you're setting yourself up for failure. You're wanting something that you can't control.
00:07:22
Speaker
one, that's kind of a pragmatic concern. And so when you when you want things that you can't control, you're likely, or at least there's the possibility of failure. Now in these cases, there's the certainty of failure. If you want your your wife and your children, you know your spouse and your friends to never die, there's the certainty of failure.
00:07:45
Speaker
And so that there's that pragmatic concern, you're setting yourself up ah for disappointment. But then there's also this um almost logical concern, the Stokes would say, or this knowledge concern that you're actually wanting something that is unnatural. You're wanting the world to be a way the world is not.
00:08:07
Speaker
Marcus Aurelius has this great line that I often repeat along the same lines, which is, don't expect a fig tree not to produce figs. And so don't expect a mortal person, your friends, your partner, don't expect them not to die, because then you're, you're literally hoping the world would be different. I've talked about this before and I I think there you you can empathize with that desire, you can empathize with that with that hope, why somebody would want that. They they would want a very bad thing not to occur or a very scary thing not to occur. So I can empathize why people would want that.
00:08:48
Speaker
But it for the Stoics, they almost think of it the same way as, oh, I wish, you know, I wish I lived forever or I wish I could had superpowers or I could fly. It's this, it's it's literally not the way the world works. And so when you attach a lot of value to that, you're you're so you're both setting yourself up for failure and you're wanting something unnatural.
00:09:13
Speaker
So the first rule of the discipline or first lesson about the discipline of desire that comes out of this is um we want to catch, we want to think carefully about any instances where we desire the world to be how the world is not.
00:09:28
Speaker
And we want to try to remove those um because it's foolish to do so. It's both pragmatically ineffective. It's setting us ourselves up for suffering. And the stoic goal is knowledge. The stoic goal is living in accordance with nature, understanding how the world works, seeing your place in it, and you're blocking yourself from that if you're desiring the world to be different than it fundamentally is.
00:09:53
Speaker
So that's the first lesson. It's foolish to want something that's not up to you. Second lesson is that it it's it is okay to desire what is up to you.
Virtue and Achievable Desires
00:10:03
Speaker
So we shouldn't desire what's not up to us, but we we can desire what's up to us. Epictetus gives an example of something that's up to us and that's always meeting your desires. The line from the translation I was using says, wanting to not fail to get what you desire.
00:10:20
Speaker
I think that's a bit of a confusing confusing translation, but the point is that it's okay to expect to get what you want, to desire to get what you want, if your wants are things that are up to you.
00:10:37
Speaker
so Let me rephrase that in a bit less of a confusing language. Basically, you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you desire things not up to you. You're not setting yourself up for disappointment if you desire things that are up to you because it's in your control. It's up to you. It's it's in your power.
00:10:58
Speaker
to get those things that are up to you, to achieve those things that are up to you. um we can In other words, we can transform ourselves into the kind of people that always get what we want. If we want the things that we can get, we want the things that are up to us.
00:11:18
Speaker
um And the way to do this, the way to want the things that are up to us is then through the discipline of desire. It's through directing our desire towards internal things. For example, virtue, responding well, being kind, courageous, just, and wise, showing the virtues and in the way that we act.
00:11:42
Speaker
So for example, and if we use the same example of it's foolish to desire your partner not to pass away ever, um but it's not foolish desire. Well, I will, I will act well when that happens. I will be a good Uh, parents to our children, I will be a good partner to them as they pass away. I will be a good friend and family member to other people that are grieving. And that's not a foolish thing to want. That's not a foolish thing to set your desire towards responding well to that inevitable situation. Again, for those two reasons, both pragmatically, because you can do it. It's achievable.
00:12:28
Speaker
And because it fits with the Stoic conception of virtue, which is mastering the things that are up to you, understanding the world the way it is, and the world the way it is, is is not a place where you can stop.
00:12:44
Speaker
natural things like like like death, but it is a place where you can respond well to it, especially if you train and incorporate stoicism. So when we direct our desire towards internal states, when we direct our desire towards things up to us, this is not wanting something contrary to nature. It's wanting something that is achievable.
00:13:05
Speaker
It's wanting something that we can reach. And that is the goal of the discipline of desires to want things that are up to you to want things that are certainly achievable. And so not to desire the world to be different or desire of the world to be a way it could not be, but to desire the way the world could be that you can, that you can reach with certainty by improving yourself and and and changing yourself.
00:13:35
Speaker
So that's the second idea, it's okay to desire what's up to you. We then get to the third idea of the discipline of desire, or the third lesson I should say, where we get into some more of the pragmatic considerations.
External Control and Manipulation
00:13:50
Speaker
So the third one is anyone who can control what you want or fear can control you.
00:13:58
Speaker
so Besides just the irrationality of wanting things you can control, I already raised this pragmatic risk. If you want something external, money, fame, approval,
00:14:10
Speaker
yeah Those are our typical examples. Epictetus was even using more charitable examples of like the immortality of your loved ones. um Then those that can control those things can control you. It's the same with fears. When you want the carrot or you fear the stick, then people with carrots and sticks have power over you.
00:14:34
Speaker
So they can bribe you with what they want, or they can threaten they can threaten you with what you fear. So you think of this think of this classic story of corruption.
00:14:47
Speaker
um people Maybe they enter the public service, ah they enter government, they enter a job, and they're they're optimistic.
00:14:59
Speaker
They're idealistic, but then they they want something. They set a target. Maybe that's success. Maybe that's achieving a certain position. Maybe that's making a a certain amount of money, even if it's so they can ah still achieve their goal. um And then when they're put in that position, then they're able to be corrupted. They're able to be bribed. They're able to be threatened.
00:15:21
Speaker
you know they want They want a certain job so they do a kind of work that would make the younger idealistic them very ashamed. um or they they you know they The artist wants to make a movie that requires funding.
00:15:38
Speaker
so um They make a movie that they feel is selling out or they um partner with a producer in some way that upsets them. The idea is just that you're compromising your character in an attempt to achieve these external things. Because once you start playing in the world of externals, you that's what you have to do to reach them. You have to
00:16:05
Speaker
you have to put them above your character. And so Epictetus loves to use the real world examples of tyrants and or emperors. um They can f throw you in jail or they can cut off your head. So if you're afraid of dying, they can make you do anything, right? The the tyrant that can threaten death can make the non-stoic do anything because as long as you fear death sufficiently, you will compromise your character to avoid it.
00:16:35
Speaker
and that's the that's the strategy they use and so that's Epictetus is really radical method when you read these passages and it's like a conversation between Epictetus and Emperor and Emperor is like i'll I'll throw you in jail and Epictetus is like go ahead I'll cut off your head and Epictetus says who who am I to be the only one whose head couldn't get cut off when did I think I was impossible to be beheaded um things like this and there's almost a humor to it but he's showing
00:17:04
Speaker
showing almost an imaginative picture of what it would be like to confront an emperor or a dictator if you weren't afraid and the powerlessness they have over you, at least over your internal character, as long as you're not afraid. And so that's that lesson that's that lesson. I think about this one a lot. I think about this one a lot in my own life.
00:17:27
Speaker
If you want something someone else has or can give you, then they they they're able to control you. and I should say not just want, but desire. right If the desires are written for the stoics, it's it's a really strong kind of want. I always use the example, you know, I want ice cream.
00:17:44
Speaker
But i don't I don't think I desire ice cream and I don't think somebody, I don't think the ice cream man is able to control me. um So those kind of things are fine. You can want external things. You can prefer them as the Stoics would say. But that real desire, that idea that, well, the quality of my life depends on this. I need to get that next raise, that promotion.
00:18:06
Speaker
ah That's it, that next opportunity to be happy. Those kind of ideas are very dangerous and that's where people are able to exert control over you.
00:18:17
Speaker
and so
00:18:19
Speaker
and that's That's going to be natural as you're progressing as a Stoic. We can't just remove ourselves from that immediately. But I think the beginning step of the discipline of desire is at least to be aware of it. Is to say, be aware that other people exert control over you because they have control over the things you desire. And at least I would say step one is the to at least note that or to identify when that's happening. Things you desire and and and things you also fear, right?
00:18:47
Speaker
So that's the third lesson. Anyone who can control what you want or fear can control you. And that connects to the fourth lesson. The only people who are free are the ones who only desire the things up
Freedom and Personal Control
00:19:00
Speaker
to them. So really radical stoic idea. So because of the third point, the only people that are free are those that have mastered the discipline of desire. They are free to do what they want because they can't be controlled by others.
00:19:14
Speaker
When you only want internal things to be a good person, to have knowledge, to act well, then someone else can't threaten you because their threats can't compromise internal goals. The emperor that threatens to throw you in jail to cut off your head, they can't say, I'll make you a bad person. I'll corrupt your character. They're, no, they're saying I'm going to hurt your body.
00:19:36
Speaker
um I'm gonna throw your body in jail. This is a point I think this makes well Yeah, that's you can do these things to my body, but you can't harm me you can fatter my leg But you can't control a bribe can't compromise these internal goals either because you won't be tempted um Maybe you prefer money. Maybe you prefer the thing being bribed, but you won't desire it above a good character Because of that no one external to you can determine your behavior No one external to you can control you There's this idea today of F.U. money. This is something Nassim Taleb has written about. I know he writes about this in anti-fragile. It's something else I've seen ah other people comment on. It's the idea of having enough money to say F.U. to anyone. It's basically freedom or so a form of freedom by obtaining enough material wealth. If I have enough money,
00:20:31
Speaker
if my boss If I have enough money and my boss tells me to do something I don't want to do, I say, you know, screw off. I'm not going to do it. If I have enough money and somebody at a dinner party and a powerful, important person at a dinner party is saying something I disagree with, I can call them out on it ah because I'm basically materially secure.
00:20:51
Speaker
And so I don't need to worry about external consequences because I already have enough external wealth. This is this ironic, it's it's a way of achieving the stoic goal for this like external success. And the stoics are obviously going to be very critical of this. um But the stoics, they they do want that same kind of attitude. They do want that FU attitude, but without needing the money. The ability to say, really to screw you to anyone, even an emperor, except it's free.
00:21:20
Speaker
You don't need to become a multi-millionaire first. You don't need to become incredibly, externally successful first. You just need to master your desires first. If you don't desire what they're bribing you with or you don't fear what they're threatening you with,
00:21:37
Speaker
well then even an emperor can't exert any control over you and that's the stoic insight I guess pragmatically is that look you can do it for free you can get there um you can get there immediately and that has this appeal um but then there's this other concern that The reason you're able to say F.U. when you've mastered the stoic discipline of desire is because you actually have what you need. The Stoics would criticize the F.U. money pictures. They say, well, you've got and enough of what you think you need and so you don't you can't be bribed by more money because you have lots of money, but you don't have a complete life yet.
00:22:20
Speaker
But if you perfect your character or if you desire focusing on your character, well then you have a path to what you need and you don't desire what somebody else can bribe or threaten you with. And so that's the last lesson. That the only free people are the ones who desire only the things up to them.
00:22:39
Speaker
So going through those lessons again as a summary. First, it's foolish to want something that's not up to you. Second, it's okay to desire what is up to you. I think I would make that language even stronger now. It's not just okay. It's ah good. It's what you should be doing. Third, anyone who can control what you want or what you fear can control you. And fourth, the only free people are the ones who desire only the things up to them.
00:23:10
Speaker
And that's a crash course in the discipline of desire. Don't desire the things that are not up to you. Desire the things that are not up to you. And if you do that, you can't be controlled. You can't be bribed. And so you'll be free. You'll be the only free person.
00:23:27
Speaker
um yeah and the That FU money example, um the Stokes would provide a lot of counter examples. They might say, well, there's always a chance you'll lose your money and then you'll be back to square one. um There are people that can take away your money. There are tyrants in Epictetus' time who are powerful enough to confiscate your wealth. Seneca was a very rich man and he was sentenced to death by Nero.
00:23:52
Speaker
So there are ways that people can exert power over you even if you're externally wealthy. They just need to be more externally wealthy. They need to be more powerful. So um it's not two different paths to freedom here. The Stoics would say there's only really one path to freedom.
Conclusion and Resources
00:24:10
Speaker
And so with those four lessons in mind, that kind of crash course in the discipline of desire, I'll read out Epictetus's handbook, chapter 14, one last time, and maybe it will make a bit more sense or it will have a bit more of that context to flush it out. So to to finish us off, here is Epictetus's handbook, chapter 14.
00:24:32
Speaker
You are foolish if you want your children and your wife and your friends to live forever, since you are wanting things to be up to you that are not up to you, and things to be yours that are not yours. You are stupid in the same way if you want your slave boy to be faultless, since you are wanting badness not to be badness, but something else.
00:24:55
Speaker
but wanting not to fail to get what you desire. This you are capable of. A person's master is someone who has power over what he wants or does not want, either to obtain it or take it away. Whoever wants to be free, therefore, let him not want or avoid anything that is up to others. Otherwise, he will necessarily be a slave.
00:25:22
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become.
00:25:41
Speaker
more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.