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Politics And Amor Fati With Erick Cloward (Episode 174)
388 Plays16 hours ago
In this episode, Michael talks with Erick Cloward, the host of the Stoic Coffee Break Podcast. Erick talks about his journey into Stoicism, his recent use of Amor Fati, and how to have difficult conversations, especially with those you politically disagree with.
(08:49) How Stoicism Makes A Difference
(16:33) Amor Fati
(31:03) Amor Fati And Politics
(39:33) Hard Conversations
(56:06) Bringing People Together
(01:02:19) Learn More
***
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Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Eric Cloward's Journey into Stoicism
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Stoic Conversations podcast. I'm Michael Tremblay. And today's episode is an interview with Eric Cloward.
00:00:12
Speaker
Eric is the host of the Stoic Coffee Break podcast, where Eric breaks down passages of Stoic philosophy and discusses how to approach Stoicism and apply it to your own life.
00:00:25
Speaker
um He's a really clear communicator in his style of Stoicism and and has a way of applying it to everyday situations that I appreciate. Eric is also the author of Stoicism 101, a new book recently released in February.
00:00:43
Speaker
In today's episode with Eric, we talk about Eric's journey into Stoicism, what attracted him to it, um how he started his podcast and how he uses his podcast as ah as a kind of a method of Stoic practice.
00:00:56
Speaker
We also talk about Amor Fati and why that is such an exercise in particular that Eric has been using recently. And then towards the latter half of the episode, we dig into um how a Stoic should approach ah political conversations or really emotionally charged, difficult conversations in these kinds of tumultuous times with those you might disagree with.
The Role of Openness in Discussions
00:01:24
Speaker
And it turns into an interesting conversation about how to approach those, i would say, from a Socratic perspective, coming into them with an open mind, hoping to learn something almost. And and if you can come into those conversations with that perspective, often they go better,
00:01:41
Speaker
but also you yourself have an opportunity to learn. So we'd recommend this episode for anyone interested in learning about Eric's background, if you've listened to his podcast before.
00:01:53
Speaker
And if not, this is a conversation between two practicing Stoics and how we're applying that to the conversations and the dynamics of our own lives. so And I hope you enjoy it.
00:02:07
Speaker
Hey, Eric, how you doing? Doing well, doing well, good to be here. Yeah, thanks for coming on to talk with me. um It's always exciting when I get to talk to um another Stoic, another practicing Stoic, somebody else also you know working on both practicing and communicating Stoicism because I find that's what so much of this podcast is like for myself. It's like a practice as well as an opportunity to share.
00:02:33
Speaker
um So excited to have you on and kind of ah dig into things. um But before we kick things off, I usually like to ask this question of how did you get into stoicism? And so what, what has that journey been like for you?
00:02:49
Speaker
Yeah. So first I wanted to comment really quickly. i appreciate what you were saying about it. The podcast also being a practice. Cause that's certainly what I found is that the way I practice is by doing that, but which leads into how I got into stoicism about nine years ago, I was listening to Tim Ferriss's podcast and he mentioned,
00:03:07
Speaker
ah William B. Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life, The Art of Stoic Joy.
Exploring Stoic Joy and Podcast Beginnings
00:03:12
Speaker
And for me, I didn't even know that stoicism was a philosophy. And the ti you know and he's like, this book has changed my life.
00:03:19
Speaker
Highly recommend it. And Tim reads a lot of books. But if he's saying that there's one that truly changes his life, kind of piqued my interest. And then the the ah kind of paradox of stoic joy, because again, I didn't know that stoicism was a philosophy. So i'm like, stoic joy? That's okay, that kind of piqued my interest.
00:03:39
Speaker
And so I purchased the book. I read through it, got a few things, had a few light bulb moments, but it didn't really like sink in, in a, in a way like how how Tim had been describing.
00:03:51
Speaker
And so I got the audio book and I would listen to it on my way to and from work every day. And after that, you know, that just the 20 minute segments or so 20, 25 minutes, you know, each way,
00:04:06
Speaker
Then I just kept having these like aha moments over and over and over. And it was like, oh, okay. Now these things are starting to really make sense. And from that point on, I kind of dug into dug into Stoicism and just really reading as much as I could.
00:04:24
Speaker
and then in 2018, I had a new year's resolution that I wanted to start a podcast. And i tried doing one before. I'm really into music and I ah write music and I love like film soundtracks like, you know, Gladiator and Hans Zimmer and, you know, just that type of stuff was always so um so interesting to me. And I thought about making a podcast called Soundtrack.FM.
00:04:48
Speaker
You know, where it was all about film scores and stuff like that. And I recorded a couple didn't like them at all. You know, it's that when you first get into podcasting, you realize how much you don't like your voice back to you.
00:05:00
Speaker
You don't sound anything like you think you do. You're not nearly as is ah energetic as what it sounds like to you. So I made myself a promise that my New Year's resolution would be to start a podcast.
00:05:14
Speaker
And on January 4th of 2018, I downloaded Anchor on my phone. It was a podcasting app and put in my earbuds and started recording and just talked about stoicism.
00:05:26
Speaker
And then I did the next day and then the next day and the next day. And my partner at the time made me promise to do at least a hundred episodes. Cause she was like, you have a tendency to quit when things start to get a little bit tough. So if you're going to put time into it, I want you to do at least a hundred episodes before you decide that, yeah know you've had enough.
00:05:45
Speaker
And so I did 137 days in a row and I tried all kinds of things. I had some with music in the background while I was talking. fact, I didn't really like that because you you know it was hard to get the levels right.
00:05:57
Speaker
And then after 137, was kind of burned out and I was like, okay, i need to and need to turn this into a weekly podcast. And so I did that and did another, I think 30 or 40 episodes and then had some personal stuff come up in my life and and took a break from it for a while.
Stoicism in Everyday Life and Personal Growth
00:06:16
Speaker
But even while I was on that break, I noticed that I was still getting a lot of downloads. People were still interested in what I was doing. I was still getting emails. I started it up again for a while. Then again, it took a break. And then during COVID, was doing a lot of writing and thinking and recognized that I think I you know i missed that that weekly practice of working through a lot of these ideas.
00:06:41
Speaker
And right at that same time, Donald Robertson's agent contacted me and said, hey, would you like to interview him for your podcast? He's got a graphic novel coming out about Marcus Aurelius. And I was like, i sure, that sounds interesting. And I've been wanting to restart the podcast. So let's do this. And from that point on, I think that was about three years ago, three and a half years ago.
00:07:03
Speaker
and just been doing it ever since. And just, you know, it's, it's become a, a weekly thing that I have continued on. And like, we're like we were discussing at the beginning, i found that for me, that practice of creating episodes and sitting down and thinking about these ideas and, you know, take something that I'm struggling with and look at it through a stoic lens of like, Hey, how can I really actually apply this in my life?
00:07:32
Speaker
was something that, you know, I joke around and call my podcast, my public therapy, you know, that about 80% of the episodes are just things that I've struggled with. And so I need to work through them and that's what they're about.
00:07:45
Speaker
And then the others are just like interesting ideas that I run into, like different frameworks of thinking that I think are interesting, that can be helpful to my listeners. And then I have some interviews sprinkled in there, but yeah, just, it's been something that it,
00:08:01
Speaker
it kind of consumes my life in a way. I had ah a friend who was here and she's like, you talk about stoicism all the time. And I'm like, well, it's kind of, it's, you know, it's, it's such a big part of my life.
00:08:12
Speaker
And, uh, and, and from her point of view, she'd had, uh, somebody she dated who, you know, talked about stoicism all the time, but yet didn't really apply a lot of the principles. So for her, was little bit of a sore spot. So I completely understood it, but, um,
00:08:28
Speaker
But yeah, it's just something that's just so much a part of my life now that, that every day when I'm struggling with something, I think, you know, I'm constantly thinking about these ideas and how I can improve my thinking, make my life just little bit better and deal with anxiety and stress.
00:08:45
Speaker
Um, and yeah, that's kind of where I've gotten to. Yeah. And so, If you think about yourself seven years ago, i guess, I mean, a lot of that resonates with me a lot.
00:08:56
Speaker
I love this idea. I mean, not to pat ourselves too much on the the back about the podcast work, but it's been ah ah for Caleb and who co-host our episodes.
00:09:08
Speaker
um it's been a great opportunity to just, as you said, just wrestle with, as you said, something comes up and it's like, oh, this is interesting to me. I want to wrestle with it. But if you go back seven years ago, what do you think has been the changes? Like how, how are you different pre a guide to the good life and today?
00:09:26
Speaker
I think the biggest thing is that my thinking overall is just so much clearer. And from a young age, I always felt like I, I had the potential to be a lot smarter than I was, but didn't know how to get there. And philosophy seemed like it was something that was just way over my head. I'm not, you know, it was like, I'm not smart enough to understand that.
00:09:48
Speaker
And i did have a philosophy one-on-one class when I was in college, but i I barely remember anything about it, but I've always read lots on psychology. When I was in high school, i remember reading the road less traveled by M Scott Peck and find that a very fascinating way of, of,
00:10:04
Speaker
looking at the mind and understanding that. And so I've always been curious about how the mind works, why it works. And I think a lot of it was driven for me from a place of unhappiness.
00:10:14
Speaker
So my, I grew up in the Mormon church, which was very restrictive and very controlling. And, you know, it's just, it, it dominates your life. And my dad was violent at times, but it was very irregular.
00:10:29
Speaker
mean, you could, you know, he'd come home one day he'd be fine. The next day he would come home and he'd be in an irritable mood. And next thing you know he's screaming and yelling at you and you're like, what's going on here? And so there was always this constant ah surveillance of the environment to make sure everything was okay with my dad because his mood was, you know, was danger.
00:10:49
Speaker
And so, I grew up feeling very very unhappy just because you know it was home was chaotic. you know I didn't feel like i was able to kind of be myself because you know the church was so prescriptive about who you're supposed to be and how you're supposed to think.
00:11:07
Speaker
And so i was always on this quest for happiness. And I found that I knew people in my life who were genuinely happy. And i was like, okay, if they can be happy, then I can figure out how to be happy because You know, no there's not a monopoly on happiness. I've got to figure this thing out.
00:11:24
Speaker
And so throughout my life, that's something that I've always been looking for.
Understanding and Managing Emotions with Stoicism
00:11:28
Speaker
And when I stumbled on stoicism, it was the first time that I really had a cohesive, rational framework that made sense to me.
00:11:36
Speaker
So I was always good at mathematics. You know, geometry was easy because he logic was shapes. And so it just clicked in a way that nothing else had ever, never done before that.
00:11:49
Speaker
Like I said, even though I'd read plenty of know things on psychology and habits and the way the mind works and thinking and other things like that, it was just so straightforward to and to helping me to understand you know why am i why am I so angry at so many small things? you know What is it about these things? you know and a you know and lose my temper about something and then look back on it later and be like, that wasn't that big of a deal. Why was I so angry about this thing?
00:12:15
Speaker
And recognizing that it was the meaning that I was attaching to what that was and being able to actually look at that in a rational sort of way and go, okay, when this person said this thing, i gave it this meaning, did they really mean that? Or, you know, and, and be able to actually interrogate my own thinking and my own emotions in a way that I hadn't been able to before.
00:12:38
Speaker
And so now it's, I still struggle with anxiety. Um, you know, I, especially as the world gets more and more chaotic and I'm, I'm very politically informed. And so that's something that, that is challenging, but because of that, I can at least understand where those thoughts are coming from and the emotions are being created.
00:13:01
Speaker
And so I can at least look at those thoughts and go, oh, okay, Yeah, that's where that's coming from. And so stoicism is kind of in a way set a floor for me, like before, oftentimes I would get stressed out about things and I would feel like, you know, my emotions were kind of all over the place.
00:13:16
Speaker
Whereas now they, I feel like I kind of have a floor of how far my mood can sink. And then that it just kind of stops there because I'm able to go, okay, let me take a step back here.
00:13:28
Speaker
Let me understand this thinking. And now what do I want to do about that? i don't have to change how I feel right now, but if I look at the thoughts, I can start to pick out the irrational things of it, pick out the worries, pick out the fears, and then look at them in a more logical, rational way and start to change that and kind of nudge my mood in a much better direction for the day.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah. there I mean, a lot of stuff I loved there. One thing you said was ah this this idea of like looking at somebody else and going, well, they don't have a monopoly on happiness. And what I think that speaks to, which is kind of like unintuitive for some people, maybe unintuitive for myself before studying philosophy, is this idea of kind of happiness as a skill or a technique.
00:14:10
Speaker
right like a craft and i i think about that you know you said you're into music i've just started playing the bass guitar picked up an instrument for the first time and sometimes when i was younger it was like you look at these musical people and you're like they've got this gift there's this like special talent and um you know maybe that exists with some geniuses but at the same time i started playing it's like okay this is just a skill You've just practiced and you've developed and you've done your, you know, you've done your scales and you've, you've put the time in.
00:14:34
Speaker
And so there's that, I love this idea for you of the starting of your philosophical journey, just being this recognition that happiness is is like, it's a craft or a skill. And it's like, well, if they can do it, ah if they can put the practice in and get there, I can get there. It's not a type difference.
00:14:49
Speaker
And then, um, stoicism is a way to, to clear that gap. I also liked one thing that really resonates for me, what you said is this, what what What connects with that is this idea of of accountability for emotions or responsibility for emotions. I know when I think about one of my big shifts, I would always think of priest-toicism as emotions of these kind of things that were happening to me. And then I would kind of feel like shame or embarrassed to be like, why am I this kind of person that gets angry or gets anxious?
00:15:18
Speaker
And instead it's this idea, as you said, of, uh, I mean, it connects to the way you're thinking. There's this rational framework and okay, I got angry or I'm anxious here because of a reason, because I'm thinking a certain way. And then I need to now interrogate that. And maybe the thinking is true and I need to not judge myself or the thinking is false and I need to, ah work on fixing it.
00:15:39
Speaker
Um, so both of those resonate with me a bunch. So I, I, yeah, I just, it just a green, just thumbs up for that. um Yeah. And I think I think you pointed something out there that when you understand where that comes from, it's so much easier to take responsibility for your emotions because then you can be like, yep, I was angry. i was out of control. i was whatever it was, because you can actually look back and understand.
00:16:04
Speaker
okay, this is what I was thinking. And so it makes it so much easier to take responsibility for the times you do have an outburst or, you know, you say something that they later on you regret, you can at least, you can, it makes it so much easier to apologize because you can recognize and go, wow, that was really crappy way to, to think about this situation.
00:16:23
Speaker
I definitely owe that person an apology and you can step up so much easier but because you, you learn how to take responsibility that way. And I think that was a big thing for me.
00:16:33
Speaker
Yeah. And then, so one thing we were talking about, I agree. um The responsibility has been has been a big part of it. One thing we were talking about before the episode. um we're talking about this practice, happiness as a craft.
00:16:46
Speaker
um i This idea of, you know, you you've got kind of a floor now for how bad things can get because maybe you've got this lifeline or this way of thinking about your life that stoicism has provided. um One thing you mentioned is that you've been working a lot on the practice of amor fati or loving fate.
00:17:06
Speaker
So you speak how ah to how that is fitting into your practice or what your relationship with that has looked like?
Embracing Amor Fati in Life's Challenges
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that for me, just really learning how to embrace that, ah that idea of you know loving your fate, of loving everything that happens to you.
00:17:23
Speaker
And it's it's a hard shift because we we put so much of our happiness on external circumstances. If I had a better apartment, I'd be happy. If I had a cooler car, I'd be happy. If my partner were better looking, I'd be happy.
00:17:38
Speaker
And so many of these circumstances are completely outside of our control. And you know we see that in politics right now. All of this chaos that seems to be happening in the U.S. right now That there are things that are outside of our control, but they affect our mood in a highly traumatic way.
00:17:59
Speaker
And so for me, the idea of practicing Amor Fati is that ability to just accept that this is, whether I like it or not, this is what's happening in life.
00:18:11
Speaker
And it's, you know, first off, it's going to happen anyway. And so if I love it or hate it, the universe doesn't care. It's still going to happen. And so hating something that happens simply because it happened in a way is is kind of irrational.
00:18:26
Speaker
But by accepting everything for exactly what it is, it gets you closer to reality. And that allows you to work with things as they are and not as you wish. which then say one saves you a lot of time and stress because you stop worrying about, oh, why can't this thing be this way instead?
00:18:42
Speaker
Why can't this person act this way instead? you Why can't you know politicians do this thing instead? you know We get away from all of that wishing and magical thinking and then start going, okay, this is what is, what can I do about it?
00:18:57
Speaker
And I think that's that's a big aspect. The other is I think that when you just... You know you accept life for exactly what it is, then it gives you that ability to be more objective about life.
00:19:08
Speaker
You can take a step back and just look at things and, you know, almost kind of be like the Zen master and watch everything that's happening and go, yep, this is exactly what's happening. And you start to see life as kind of the game that it is because, and that you simply, you know, you make choices in that.
00:19:29
Speaker
You know, I often say to people, you know, there are no problems in life. There are only choices. Meaning that anytime you hit an obstacle, The only reason why you consider it a problem is because you judged it to be a problem.
00:19:41
Speaker
what ah Anytime you hit an obstacle, it's just an opportunity for you to make a choice. And you may not like the choices. you There may be choices that you're missing, but really an obstacle and that comes your way is just an opportunity for choices.
00:19:56
Speaker
And with that objectivity of being able to accept everything for what it is, you kind of reach those, like I said, you kind of reach the state and it happens sometimes where I almost hit I feel like I hit kind of a, an enlightened flow state where I just kind of see life for what it is. This, it's just this game that's going on and we have our roles to play and,
00:20:18
Speaker
It brings kind of an an interesting sense of of peace when you you're able to do that because you you stop wishing for everything to change and you go, hmm, okay, this is what life is and isn't this great?
00:20:34
Speaker
And the other thing that Amor Fati I think really brings up is you never know when the worst thing that happens to you could be the best thing that ever happened to you. There often times where people will talk about that. You know, my girlfriend broke up with me and I was heartbroken for years. And anyway I struggled with that.
00:20:52
Speaker
But, you know, in working to get through that, I got to be more resilient. I learned how to, you know, look at some of the things that I had done wrong in the relationship and get better. And then I met this other person and holy crap, they're the love of my life.
00:21:03
Speaker
And if I'd never broken up with this person, then I wouldn't have found this other person and this relationship is so much healthier and happier. Yeah, I think about – I mean my big my big moment with that is I – I had a lot of difficulty. So I did my PhD in philosophy and then had a lot of difficulty getting an academic job and I left academia and that was really difficult for me at the time.
00:21:26
Speaker
um And that that's probably one of the times in my life where I consider like a failure of like, I wanted something and I just couldn't do it. Like I wasn't good enough to do it or willing to make the sacrifices at the skill level that I had. It would have been too many years on the job market. It would have been too much jumping around from school to school or something like this.
00:21:45
Speaker
And now I really like my work. I really like my really like my ah job outside of the job mark, outside of academia. And I get to engage with public philosophy, which I actually like more than academic philosophy. Like I like this kind of work of like talking with people about how to live more than academic philosophy as much as I did enjoy that. And so that's exactly the kind of moment you're talking about, right? Something that for me was this like big existential crisis, this this terrifying moment. And now afterwards has landed, a book oh, yeah.
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh, she was pretty good. I actually landed pretty well for myself. And we have so much anxiety looking forward, but have such an ability to make sense of it looking backwards. And um I think of your, I was i was listening to your um i was listening to your podcast ah before this, and you're talking um in a recent episode a lot about expectations. And I think expectations is like, yeah, such a perfect way to capture maybe the contrast to more Fatih, like the thing that we get wrong.
00:22:39
Speaker
And something in my own practice, I do all the time as I think about Marcus Aurelius' line of, you know don't expect a fig tree not to produce figs. I just think about that all that. That is like one of those stoic lines that really, really helps me of like – you know, this is a, this is a bitter person doing a bitter thing, or this is an, a jealous person being jealous, or this is something that I didn't, I wasn't guaranteed to succeed in. This was, and now I've failed, but, but it's not a thing where I was guaranteed to succeed. It's just the fig tree producing figs.
00:23:11
Speaker
That for me is very, very, very helpful. How do you practice it? How do you practice more fat to you? Like, I agree with all you're saying, but like, how do you how do you make it work for yourself?
00:23:21
Speaker
um For me, one of my favorite lines from Marcus Aurelius is where he says how ridiculous it is to be surprised at anything that happens in life. Yeah. you know And it's it's it's definitely that like, oh, you know taking a step back, looking at what my expectations are, and either tempering them or – yeah just seeing if they're a seeing if they're really in line. you know It's like like I moved over to Amsterdam a little over year ago and been working on starting a coaching career here and it's gone incredibly slowly and it's it's challenging.
00:23:58
Speaker
And there are times when I get frustrated with that where you know I'm like, oh, I want this to move so much faster. And I've got some things that are finally dislodging and starting to move, but they're moving really slowly.
00:24:10
Speaker
And so i have to, you know, just keep reminding myself of like, okay, you know, you, you know, you're doing the work, you're putting the work in, you're doing the things that need to happen. um Be okay with the idea. You may have to change direction at some point, but just keep doing the work that you need to do that consistency.
00:24:29
Speaker
And, you know, eventually, hopefully things will come or they won't. you know It's very possible that it completely fails and I have to go back into software and work at that for a while until I'm able to take a second stab at it. but But I always say that, you know like you mentioned before, that expectation you know failure is just missed expectations.
00:24:52
Speaker
that we put all these expectations out there and we, you know, when something happens not in the way that we want, then we consider it a failure. you know You know, whether that was, you know, like like you were saying, you know, with your PhD, you had these expectations that you're going to be working in academia. You're going to have, you know, this is the trajectory that your life is going to go.
00:25:12
Speaker
And because of that, not working out the way that you thought, you considered it a failure. Well, it was only because you had expectations and you didn't you didn't meet those expectations.
00:25:23
Speaker
That's it. Whether it's judged a failure or not, that's that's completely up to you. And like when I got divorced back in 2006, I for longest time felt like a complete failure.
00:25:36
Speaker
And when my last relationship ended a few years ago, the same kind of thing. yeah But that was because my expectation was is that I'm in this relationship and it's going to last the rest my life.
00:25:50
Speaker
So when it didn't, I considered myself a failure. Oh, if i if I were just good enough, if I were just all of these things, it would have lasted forever. And so because it didn't, I'm a failure.
00:26:01
Speaker
Rather than looking at aspects of it, of like, well, the relationship lasted for how long it needed to last. And if your expectation is, I'm going to bring the best that I can to this relationship and it will last as long as it lasts, that's a very different approach.
00:26:17
Speaker
Now, that's not saying that should go in and just be like, well, it's going to last as long it's going to last and whatever. you know You should obviously be committed to that relationship. But we beat ourselves up because we create these expectations of the way that things should be.
00:26:33
Speaker
And so when things don't work out that way, which most things in life don't happen the way that we expect them to. And so by taking our time and going, well, what's what's a much more realistic approach to it, but also what's, some you know, like I was saying, you know, the relationship will last as long as it lasts, allows you to be more present in the relationship because you're, you're worried about what am I doing on the day to day basis? How am I being present in this relationship rather than worrying about how long is this, you know, how do I extend this relationship?
00:27:03
Speaker
It's how can I be my best in this relationship today? You know, it's kind of like how Seneca talks about, you know, there are people who spend their lives trying to live longer rather than living better.
00:27:15
Speaker
And it's that same idea. It's like, you can't control how long you live, but you can choose to live nobly, I think is what he says. And it's that same idea. Rather than worrying about how long you live, worry about how good you live now.
00:27:27
Speaker
And when you're in a relationship, same thing. Rather than worrying about how long it's going to last, worry about how good am I being in this relationship right now? Yeah. So there's something different there.
00:27:38
Speaker
The first point was almost like a self-centered point. It was like, um if you have expectations, when you don't reach those expectations, it hurts.
00:27:49
Speaker
And that's true and it's important. But there was there's there's this there's this second point almost like, but expectations can cause us to think about things differently in a way that makes those things worse.
00:28:01
Speaker
If I take for granted that my relationship is going to last forever, I'm not going to, but yeah, put in the work moment to moment, day to day, or view it as as a, I mean, I guess there's something there that connects with like memento mori or something like this, where it's like, when you, when you forget the nature of a thing that it has the nature of the potential to be transient, you, you don't,
00:28:24
Speaker
you don't engage with it the way you should. So I think there's something, yeah, I haven't thought about Amor Fatih that way either. When you see things in reality, you actually engage with them differently. You're not just immune to the pain. It's not just a, it's not just a way to numb yourself. It's actually a way to engage with them more realistically.
00:28:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely agree with that. And yeah, I, I, I like that little twist you put on it because that's, that's very true. If we expect that it's going to continue on, then, you know, we may not put as much into it. And,
00:28:54
Speaker
You know, I, I remember talking to a friend, this was long before I found stoicism and she was complaining about some of the guys that she had dated and stuff like that. And i said, you know, and, and one thing I noticed over and over with the guys that she was dating was that they weren't putting in very much into the relationship. They were just putting in the minimum that they needed to, to, you know, keep her somewhat interested.
00:29:19
Speaker
And when I kind of pointed that out, she's like, huh, that's interesting. And I said, yeah, you know, there are some people who will just put in the minimum to keep a relationship going. And rather than coming to it with a full amount of gusto and and moving forward on that.
Stoic Practices in Political Conversations
00:29:35
Speaker
And i think it's just that assumption, well, if I just put in just a little bit, then the, you know, she'll stick around. So I said, so don't put up with that. And she was like, okay.
00:29:45
Speaker
Interesting. Hmm. Yeah. um No, that's great. That's a great point. And then I wanted to segue also from Amor Fati to something you were talking about. um It's kind of this this moment of political chaos. So it's one thing um to love fate, maybe when it's something that you're um I don't know, you're consenting in, you're politically, it's not politically, you're taking on like, okay, well, if I'm going to work on, if I'm going to pick a job, there's some sort of, there's some sort of, you know, uncertainty that comes with that job. Maybe it will succeed. Maybe it won't. You're talking about, your you know, your coaching business. You're, you're taking on a risk as an entrepreneurial venture and you've got to accept that that comes with risk.
00:30:32
Speaker
Um, how do you, yeah, I mean, the question, ah the question is, um, you know, how do you stoically approach, um, our political climate or any sort of, uh, moment of kind of political change or challenge, but then I guess also connecting that to a more Fati, um, yeah. How do you do that with something that seems, I guess, a lot more outside of your control than maybe a relationship or a career or something like this?
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, what I've been thinking a lot about with, like I said, with a lot of the political chaos that's going on right now in the world and especially in the U.S. is that when these things happen, it's really easy to give into fear, to give into hopelessness, which then...
00:31:24
Speaker
you know, or i hopelessness and helplessness, which are, you know, on my couple of podcasts back, I had a guy named Eric Fisher and he's like the cousins of hopelessness and helplessness. And i thought that was really interesting.
00:31:36
Speaker
And i was like, yeah, it's like you start to feel hopeless because you're helpless and because you feel helpless. And so I think a lot of it is recognizing that those emotions are very easy to come about and that a lot of,
00:31:52
Speaker
A lot of political leaders do that on purpose. They bring in that fear to make it feel like, you know, that you have no power and that you are powerless in these situations to do anything about it. So you should just give up and roll over and let them do whatever they want.
00:32:10
Speaker
And i think that recognizing those emotions, I think is probably the first thing to do. And then the second thing to do is to step up and to practice living in virtue.
00:32:25
Speaker
You know, the the four cardinal virtues. Are you, you know, are you practicing justice? Are you, and you know, with your interactions with other people, are you treating them fairly? are you treating them kindly? Are you, or are you one of these who are, is gleeful about the you know, the suffering that you see going on? Because if so, you really need to take a look at yourself.
00:32:43
Speaker
You know, that politics and governings should not be about, you know, My side wins by taking down the other side. They need to lose in order for us to win because that's not what government is about. Government is about figuring out ways to govern ourselves, that we share the resources, that we share you know the country that we live in, that the services that are there are there to help our society to be a much better place to live in.
00:33:11
Speaker
And if all we're worried about is beating down the other side, then we've missed the whole point of what government is about. It's about having conversations to figure out how do we take the resources that we have? How do we use the money, you know, whatever other resources are out there for the betterment of all of society?
00:33:30
Speaker
And so I think that rather than falling into that place of hopelessness and languishing in that fear, that you recognize that there are things that you can do and to take action in those areas. You speak up, you volunteer for, you know, for different things to help out with. You seek jobs in the public sector to try and be more helpful.
00:33:51
Speaker
And by taking action and taking some control over, you know, whatever it is that you have some control over, that's where you start to feel less hopeless.
00:34:03
Speaker
So when you've, Oftentimes when I feel that, you know, when I feel kind of that hopelessness come up, I'm like, you know, cause over here in Amsterdam, I see everything that's going on over there. um You know, I, I kind of take a breather. I take a, I go for a walk, to you know, kind of clear my head so that I don't sit and ruminate on those things because all I, you know, all it is is just my worries about the things that could happen or that are happening that I don't really have control over.
00:34:31
Speaker
Now that's not to say I should just ignore them because you know, ignorance doesn't help any of us, but it's just a recognizing that my worry isn't going to change anything about that. So what are the things that I can do?
00:34:43
Speaker
You know, I can talk to my friends, check in on them. i can make sure that, um you know, that when I talk to people about these things over here, that I explained the issues because a lot of people are like, what's going on in your country? I don't understand this.
00:34:58
Speaker
And so talking to them about, you know, some of the things that are happening and, so that they have a better understanding of those kinds of things. and And sometimes when you feel anxious like that, just going and talking with somebody and saying, these are the things that are stressing me out. And you know this is the meaning that I'm attaching to them.
00:35:15
Speaker
And talking with friends can be incredibly helpful. But I think that one of the things we're missing is, you know like I said, um I liked Yulvar and Noah Harari's thing, is that democracy is a conversation.
00:35:26
Speaker
And if all we're doing, especially online or with family members who disagree with us, He's trying to score points, trying to tear them down. you know Regardless of which side you're on, that's not what its that's not what being a good Stoic is about, and it's not what being a good human is about.
00:35:42
Speaker
you know We should be here to lessen suffering in the world, not increase suffering. Yeah, so i mean as the so I'm a i'm a Canadian. I've recently moved to the United States, maybe like six months ago, and things are very politically charged here.
00:36:00
Speaker
I think it's a certain point in time. i also think it's because the United States, i think, can feel a bit like the center of the world sometimes in a way that it doesn't feel as much maybe in Canada. um So it feels like there's a lot more at stake and maybe there is more at stake.
00:36:14
Speaker
um And so there's there's a lot um that's charged on either side. it takes up a bigger part, I think of the day to day mental energy than I've felt in Canada before. before um And then, so I, and then I want to, so, you know, it's like, how do we respond to that? And how do we deal with that? Both, you know,
00:36:33
Speaker
um yeah know both if, if, if, um Things are moving politically in a direction we don't like, but then also, um as you spoke to, maybe even just the way that dialogue or conversation is going on, like not like ah it becomes about scoring points or it becomes about, um you know, show it like this, this ability for genuine discourse is not well supported by what I see on the internet. Sometimes I go on Twitter or something. I'm like, this is just terrible.
00:37:05
Speaker
This is not a good conversation. And so I just want to kind of like make a bit of a framework out of this because it's just I think just the way my brain works. and like I mean on one thing you had like, look, you've got ruminating on things that are outside of your control is just generally a bad thing from the stoic perspective. And I think that was one thing you called out. And that is why you feel helpless. You said hopeless and helpless.
00:37:26
Speaker
You feel hopeless because you feel helpless. And I think you're going to feel helpless if you ruminate on things outside of your control. Um, because you, that's by their nature, the things you can't really exert a lot of influence on or determine.
00:37:38
Speaker
So I think that, I think that was that that I that but want to call out that I thought was, was a great idea. Another one was this idea of, um, having conversations, you know, democracy is a conversation, um,
00:37:51
Speaker
And so yeah I was thinking about Marcus Aurelius' idea of decomposition where – that's something that Caleb and I used to refer to it. But it's that Marcus quote where he's like he's at a fancy dinner and he's like this is just – pig's flesh or something or you know some some fruit on a table like you describe things objectively as they are and it's like politics it again it can take on this like ah this big idea but you described it as you know people working together to distribute resources or something along these lines and when you kind of like you you
00:38:25
Speaker
yeah I like that idea of you decompose it to that. It's okay. If you think about it like that, what is the best way to go about doing that? Well, it's probably genuine conversation. It's probably actually you know working together, being upfront about this is what I value. This is what you value. How can we best come to a compromise even if those things are different?
00:38:45
Speaker
um So that was another idea that I had. And then there's that third idea of the dichotomy of control, like you said, of just taking action. Okay, well, what is in your control? Well, there's there's going to be, you know, the kinds of conversations you have, the ways that you, ah you know, um actions you take in in in your life to to either, as you said, like you know, work in the public sector or volunteer or contribute to a cause you believe in.
00:39:10
Speaker
um And then also just like did thinking about what politics actually should be. um And that's probably just a genuine conversation between people about how we spend our time and resources. And we've kind of gotten away from that certainly, or certainly have gotten away from that if you're on the right part of the internet or in the right spot.
00:39:28
Speaker
Does that, does that capture your thinking or is there anything else? Yeah. Would you nuance that at all? Yeah. I mean, no, I think you, you pretty much nailed that. I think just kind of the,
00:39:39
Speaker
to add to that as part of that conversation is that when you have those conversations, do so with honesty and sincerity, you know, not to trash the other person, bring them down, but to honestly try to understand their, their side. And oftentimes having those sincere and honest conversations, even if the other person might be disingenuous at the beginning and they're just trying to score points, if they're,
00:40:06
Speaker
you know, if you don't allow them to get your goat because you are being genuine and sincere, you know, it it's really hard for, you know, it's really hard for you to lose your cool if all you're doing is is genuinely asking questions and you truly want to understand and know.
00:40:24
Speaker
And i think a great example of that is with Socrates. You know, he, there was a point where he was talking with Archibaldes where he was like, hey, and you know, why do you want to learn rhetoric? It's like, because I want to, you know, Archibaldus was like, well, because I want to win debates. And he was like, well, why do you want to win debates so that I can influence people? And it's like, okay, but what if, you know, what if you win the debate, but you really don't know what you were debating about?
00:40:51
Speaker
You know, he gives an example of like a doctor, you know, telling you the truth about, you know, medicine and the truth about things to care of your health. And then somebody who's good at rhetoric, you know, on the counter side telling you that candies and sweets are all really good for you know, which that even if the rhetorician wins, we're worse off because the real knowledge is lost.
00:41:14
Speaker
So he was like, so he told Archibaldi, he's like, if you genuinely lose an argument or a debate, then you end up being the winner. And he was like, why would I be the winner? Because I lost the debate. It's like, because you found an error in your thinking.
00:41:31
Speaker
And you were able to change that. Whereas the person who won, he still hasn't changed his thinking at all. And so therefore he honestly loses because he has missed out on truth.
The Socratic Method and Constructive Debates
00:41:42
Speaker
Oh, I love that. You haven't gained anything from the conversation if the other person is just agreeing with you. Maybe you feel like you've gained something um because you know you've made the world a better place by persuading somebody.
00:41:54
Speaker
But really, it's the other person who's gained something, which is they've gained the knowledge by being humble enough to be like, hey, i've yeah, that's a good point. I can see that or I didn't think about it that way. Oh, that's great.
00:42:05
Speaker
Yeah. So for me, when when I read that story, i was just like, ooh, that's a powerful lesson. Yeah. ah Because when I was younger, I used to be, and i've i've probably ruined some friendships because I was so worried about making other people agree with my side on something that oftentimes we get into big arguments about it because I was so sure that I was right.
00:42:27
Speaker
And I look back on that now and I'm like, well, some of that came from insecurity in that I wanted them to agree with me because if they didn' weren't agreeing with me, then I felt like they weren't accepting me so that their rejection of my argument or my idea was a rejection of me as a person.
00:42:43
Speaker
And so that once I recognized that, that somebody can completely disagree with me and still love and care for me. And so just looking at it from that, that perspective, and I was able to kind of let go of that insecurity, but I know that I've probably ruined some ruin some relationships because I was so worried about getting the other person to agree with me.
00:43:05
Speaker
And now I don't really care as much anymore. If somebody doesn't agree with me, that's totally okay. And if they can show me where I'm wrong, great. Now I've fixed an error in my thinking. This is awesome. You know, i I thought this, they showed me some evidence and and were convincing enough that that i was wrong in my thinking about that. And so I'm going to shift my perspective, which means I've corrected an error in my thinking.
00:43:27
Speaker
And I'm a little bit closer to being right or I'm a little bit further away from being wrong. And that's a much better place to be in life because I'm always trying to seek truth because I don't know everything.
00:43:37
Speaker
smart as I am, I did i i definitely don't. Yeah, love that idea. i haven't I haven't thought about things that way, about winning a debate by losing. The Socrates guy was on to something. he's a ah He's a pretty smart guy.
00:43:50
Speaker
um I love that. And I think, I mean, the the one thing you call is very stoic way of thinking about things, right, is that we've told this story, or if they disagree with my opinion, especially if it's a political opinion, they don't value me, they disagree disagree they disagree with me, they...
00:44:07
Speaker
ah they They are disrespecting me. It's like adding that additional story to it. And then the stoic answer is like, well, you're having a very natural emotional response.
00:44:18
Speaker
if you If you think that's true, if you think them disagreeing with you is them actually and insulting you at your core, then you're going to be then you're going to get angry or not even insulting you, but harming you, I guess.
00:44:29
Speaker
um Then you're going to get angry. It's a natural response. It's kind of like pulling apart those those judgments. um One thing that I do... I think i'm I'm a pretty agreeable person by nature.
00:44:40
Speaker
um But one thing that is helpful for me is like ah trying to figure out what people agree upon first. And I often find even with people that I really, ah you know, as long as as, you said, as long as they're coming to the argument in good faith, you know, when you get down to it, it's like, okay, well, do we want people to be happy?
00:44:57
Speaker
Yes. Do we want other people to live well? Like, yes. And you know if someone disagrees with you at those premises, it's like, okay, well, you know yeah, at that point, you're like, I don't know if I can even talk to you, right? Or like we can talk, but it's not – maybe not as peers ah if youre if you're disagreeing at that level.
00:45:13
Speaker
And then often I find in these political discussions, you get down almost to like, well, I actually think that – I actually think this social issue – is harming people in a way that, um you know, you don't think that social issue is harming people.
00:45:31
Speaker
I'm trying to, I'm being vague here, but you can pick any example, right? Like you might think, okay, I think that like, tra and just being sure, I think that transgender people going into bathrooms is harming people's ability to have a good quality of life. You get it down like really factual and it's like, okay,
00:45:49
Speaker
We can have a factual disagreement there and and maybe there are some judgment values that are being built into there that maybe i also disagree with about. um But it's like, it's like, I feel like when you can get it down to the core disagreement, it's a lot easier to have a, like a reasonable discussion about like, okay, um you know, this doesn't have to be, I'm on this side ah well you're on that side and now we're arguing with each other.
00:46:14
Speaker
ah We just hate each other. But like, um yeah. I don't think that is factually the case, but we both want the same thing, which is people to be like half happy and healthy and safe.
00:46:25
Speaker
um Maybe you're just placing emphasis and in a different spot than I am, or maybe you think you have, we have a different factual agreement. And then you can actually, if you get into good faith, you can say, okay, well then how would we factually tell if that's the case?
00:46:37
Speaker
What source of evidence would we go to? And those are the kinds of discussions that kind of looking for, but I really find it it's helpful to start with like getting on the same page about things. I don't know. um Do you employ the same strategies or what what strategies do you use in the in these conversations?
00:46:52
Speaker
I'm working on that. i would say that I'm not, it's taken me a while because I've been doing a I think that growing up Mormon instills in you this idea of I have the truth and therefore what I have is right and everybody else needs to agree with me. And so you, you're kind of brainwashed from a young age that you have the truth and God has revealed this to you. And, and so everybody else should agree with this because it is the truth.
00:47:20
Speaker
And so it's taken me, it's taken me a long time to kind of overcome that unconscious idea that what I have is the truth. And so,
00:47:30
Speaker
what I work on in these conversations is generally to have a place of humility and a place to say, like you were talking about, of just trying to get down to the more factual things about that and ask those questions of like, okay, well, well what is it that you believe about this situation?
00:47:47
Speaker
What are the facts that you have about this situation? And doing so from a place of sincerity and honestly wanting to understand and not in a way of trying to trap somebody and and slam them.
00:47:59
Speaker
But like you said, if if you can't agree with on the basic value proposition that other people deserve to have happiness and not suffer, then then the conversation at that point is disingenuous.
00:48:11
Speaker
And you can't really yeah have a conversation with people who are like that. Maybe you then retreat the conversation back to that layer and you're like, okay, well, let's talk about why you don't think that thing.
00:48:22
Speaker
um i'm I'm joking, which is judgmental. Like i'm I'm laughing about it, but it's like, you can't move on. You can't get down to the facts of the matter unless that foundation is in place. And maybe you'd have a conversation with that. phone I haven't met many people who disagree with that. And that's probably ah bit of an echo chamber.
00:48:39
Speaker
um There probably are some that do, but it's like, um, yeah, you'd almost have to have the the conversation at that level. But I love your Socratic example of, again, just genuine questioning, humility, trying to understand and getting on the same page.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that that i that's been something I've had to work on is that when I approach those conversations to to not be wedded to any particular opinion.
00:49:05
Speaker
And i've you know even if i have a strong opinion about something within that conversation, maybe even suspend that and approach it like Socrates said, it's like, I know that I'm intelligent because I know that I know nothing.
00:49:16
Speaker
You know, he he would approach conversations of like, I'm going to pretend like I don't really have any preconceived notions about this. So I can ask questions from all sides, you know, kind of like this John Stuart Mill quote, where he says, you know, if the if you only know your side of the argument and you haven't even bothered to understand the other person's side,
00:49:38
Speaker
then you don't even know half the argument. And so you should prefer, you have no reason for preferring one opinion over the other. And it's that same idea with Socrates of just like, if you go in and just go, well, let me try and understand all of the sides of the situation as best I can, then I can make a judgment.
00:49:56
Speaker
Then you're gonna be much better off. But it takes time and it takes effort to do that. and And that's that's incredibly challenging. um And I usually try to approach things like that you know, or, or state things as well. This is just how I see it.
00:50:10
Speaker
What do you think? and And, leave it open to that. um but there have been times where I've been a little bit grumpy or a little bit tired with somebody who, who just spouts nonsense. And I just kind of go, i just start throwing facts at them and they kind of get a little bit flustered and they're like, well, that's just what I feel. And I'm like, okay, you can feel that way, don't don't Don't give that opinion as if it's facts, if that's what's coming from your feelings. And they kind of take a step back and like, well,
00:50:40
Speaker
ah you know, and and so I can't say that I'm always good at it. I try to be better about that.
00:50:48
Speaker
Because you know i want people to to be able to listen. I want people to be able to think a little bit better and to discover their mistakes in their thinking and point out mistakes in mine.
00:51:00
Speaker
And that takes a lot of work and a bit of humility. Yeah, I think about this, two points I wanted to add to that. And I mean, I think you raised a good point of like, okay, if what you're doing is communicating your emotions to me, like you should, i'm ah maybe you know I'll listen to your emotions, but we should be having the conversation as that, is like that's what you're feeling, which is a very different conversation than this is what the world is. And most of us are pretty receptive to being like, I'll sit and talk to you about how you're feeling.
00:51:25
Speaker
But that's very different than like, this should be the case, or you know this should be a law, people shouldn't be allowed to do this. um Another thing is i think about this division between politics and philosophy lot. And I think about politics as, you know, the the the thing that accompanies politics is is this idea of propaganda, which is this um attempt to communicate a specific way that the world is. um And really you're talking about, it seemed to me like you're talking about bringing philosophy into these political conversations.
00:52:00
Speaker
you You gave that analogy to rhetoric at the start, right? Let's not try to convince other people. Let's actually engage in a philosophical discussion here. And that is actually the opportunity to be to have transformative benefit.
00:52:13
Speaker
That's the opportunity to learn something and walk away not just feeling like I won or I scored a point, but ah transformed and improved in some way. Even if it is as simple as, I still disagree with that person, but I understand their opinion better.
00:52:27
Speaker
And so I could probably make a... I could maybe communicate more effectively later, or I could, I can empathize um ah more and use that in, you know, in, in whatever change I'm attempting to make later.
00:52:40
Speaker
um so that's, that, I mean, that's the way that thinking about it. It's like having that Socratic philosophical approach to conversations that become, as you were saying at the start, typically rhetorical.
00:52:50
Speaker
And I think the internet is the worst for this. The internet's almost exclusively rhetoric and persuasion. Yeah. yeah So I, I like the division.
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, I think you kind of nailed it right there is that propaganda is basically rhetoric. It's just, it's not, it's not ah coming from an honest place. And if you, if you're coming from an honest place about how do we actually solve these problems, then, then a lot of those things can just be put by the wayside because they don't matter.
00:53:24
Speaker
You know, it's like, so well, so-and-so said this and so-and-so said that, and then this happened and that happened. It's like, okay, But what are we going to do about this? It doesn't matter what was said or done in the past.
00:53:35
Speaker
It's how do we move forward? And I think that that's a that's a big thing is that propaganda is used to kind of, you know, shape people's emotions around things and, you know, kind of try to, in some ways, rewrite the past, you know, and...
00:53:55
Speaker
you know we see that happening quite a bit and so but it's it's hard because if people are misinformed then the judgments they're going to make about things are are going to be incorrect and they're going to make assumptions you know they're going to assume certain things or draw certain conclusions that if they're not based upon true facts then you know then they're going to be faulty simply because they were based on faulty information so that is that is quite a challenge and I think that's why I appreciate you know websites like Ground News where they try to get, you know these are the places that are being as factual as possible.
Stoic Virtues as a Framework for Governance
00:54:32
Speaker
And I know for me that the news sources that I try to you know pay attention to are the ones where they're much less opinionated and much more just about this is just what I see.
00:54:45
Speaker
Or if they are opinionated about something, they're very clear about this is just my opinion on this. Or this is how I see this thing based upon these these types of facts. And so i'm very particular about, you know, the news sources that I pay attention to.
00:55:00
Speaker
i I agree with that. um mean, and and i won when i want know when I say something like propaganda, and i I mean, I don't think you were using this way either. Not just meaning anything i disagree with. It's like anything that like says, this is the way the world is, and you don't have to think about it more, because I'm telling you. It's like I'm laying down. I'm i'm encouraging you not to engage with this critically, because this is how things are.
00:55:25
Speaker
um And I don't like that. I think we should be cautious about that about that um from any any side or any kind of any perspective because it's i mean it's just antithetical to that philosophical process we were talking about and you're saying, which is get these get these objective facts and then try to form um from that foundation you know your view with still some some a bit of skepticism or a bit of the ability to be humble.
00:55:50
Speaker
Do you have other advice on how the Stoics, how Stoics can bring people together? so we talked a lot about, you know, just good, candid, charitable conversation. Any other advice of or or ways that Stoics can bring people together through political division?
00:56:06
Speaker
I mean, I think more than anything, it really comes down to rather than I mean, even when you're trying to point out, well, this person said this or this this thing happened or that thing happened. And so therefore I have, you know, because it's hard to get truly factual things on it, just filter everything through a lens of virtue.
00:56:24
Speaker
You know, are the choices and opinions you have based upon wisdom and trying to do the best things you know the best for as many people? Are they based on justice and treating other people fairly and kindly, regardless of you know of what's going on around? Are you practicing discipline and moderation? Or...
00:56:46
Speaker
You know, ah and are you practicing courage? Are you stepping up and doing the right thing, even in the when it's unpopular and saying the the right thing and not kowtowing or bending because of, you know, different pressures of things?
00:56:59
Speaker
So I think that in any situation, it really comes down to regardless of which side you're on, who said what, who's doing what, if you can look at each thing and say, you know, is this fair?
00:57:11
Speaker
Is this compassionate? Is this being kind? And is this making the world a better place? And is, am I taking a courageous stand or am I just, you know, saying what's it politically expedient or because I don't want to be ostracized from my group, you know?
00:57:28
Speaker
yeah I think that ah everything needs to be kind of be filtered through those virtues. And then it really doesn't matter which side you're on or or what your political opinion is, because you're looking at every single political thing through that lens.
00:57:42
Speaker
And that that, I think, you know clears up a lot of stuff right there. Because if if you are say, a conservative and you know you believe in fiscal responsibility, and that's one of your big things that you're you're really big about,
00:57:55
Speaker
And, you know, on the other side, you're all about, you know, you want to give more programs to the to the poor and other things like that. You can at least have an honest conversation about that and look at both of those sides through that lens of, well, what's the wise thing to do? If we overspend our money, then we, you know, we we run into fiscal problems.
00:58:13
Speaker
But if we allow suffering, then we have fiscal problems because people are getting sick. They they don't they don't have a place to live. And so then we have more homeless people. And so we can, but being honest about that and upfront, then you're able to come together and go, okay, what's the wise thing to do here?
00:58:31
Speaker
What's the fair thing to do here? What's the courageous thing to do here? And you can actually have those honest conversations. yeah think that's great. I mean, the way that I would frame that is skeptic we're talking a lot about skepticism, being open-minded, but this doesn't mean being relativistic, right? The Stoics do put ah ah put forward this view that there are better and worse ways to live.
00:58:52
Speaker
um Yes. And there are virtues, and it doesn't... ah but I also like to think about a lot that it's it's a lot easier because one of the things that's frustrating about stoicism is that it doesn't, it's not prescriptive. It's not like, oh, just maximize pleasure in this moment or maximize joy. It's not like utilitarian. So it requires a lot of, that's why it's a craft. It requires a lot of skill um to perceive the correct thing to do in a situation, especially if it's a complex political, ah you know, social issue.
00:59:22
Speaker
But there are these really clear signposts for what not to do. You know you do not act cowardly. You do not act unjustly. You do not act in an ignorant way um or an intemperate way.
00:59:37
Speaker
And, you know, when you give the example of the fiscal conservative talking with the, the um you know, the the liberal about, you know, what is the responsible way to distribute money to maximize the benefit of the population, know,
00:59:52
Speaker
that is That is a conversation that can be had justly and courageously and temperately and be totally coherent and be like, well, maybe this is like ah this is like a – it's an interesting debate. People have different dispositions. They have different ideas about the size of government or the role of government.
01:00:10
Speaker
And you could have that conversation in a respectful, coherent way. but not if you're being, you know, unjust, intemperate, cowardly. And you might say cowardly is like not saying what you mean or not, um you know, going for the easy win instead of having the hard conversation. And so, ah yeah, I like that reminder that stoicism does provide these signposts and it's's's it's not as simple as like, okay, you you've got, there there is a nuance to living well and it requires this like particularity and particular understanding of who you are, where you live,
01:00:43
Speaker
but that's still not relativistic. There's still, uh, still wrong ways to be. And you need to live with those four virtues to, to, to avoid that. And, um, yeah, it's a good reminder because I do find myself sometimes falling back into that relativism when you get into like the Socratic way of thinking, but it's like, no, there's there. If we stand by anything, it's like, you know, don't, don't do these things. Right. Yeah.
01:01:05
Speaker
yeah and Yeah, exactly. And that's why, you know, Socrates spent a lot of time trying to, dissect if virtue can be taught and what it means to be virtuous.
01:01:17
Speaker
And so that way, you know, that through that, that questioning of those things and, you know, in Plato's dialogues, it allowed him to dissect, dissect and kind of come down to, Hey, these are the four main pillars. And these are things that we can, we can kind of say are first principles of what it means to be a good person and what it means to live a good life.
01:01:42
Speaker
And that if you practice just those four things, you know, when Aristotle wanted to throw on there, was like, well, but wealth and beauty and fame, they should be on there as well. You know, and the Stoics were like, nope, you don't need to be wealthy to be a happy person. You just have to follow these four virtues.
01:01:56
Speaker
You don't need to be famous. You don't, you know, you don't even have to be healthy. You know, beauty, beauty doesn't have to be there either. You can be and ugly person. Socrates was not a very attractive person, but yet he, you know,
01:02:09
Speaker
he was still living a pretty good life and he was living the kind of life that he wanted to. And he was, he was doing his best to be the best person that he could be. Well, I think that's a great, i think that's a great idea to, to, to end on.
01:02:24
Speaker
Um, as, so as we wrap up, Eric really enjoyed talking with you. has been a lot of
Eric’s Book and Leadership Coaching
01:02:28
Speaker
fun. um stoic to stoic. Um, basically for those that are, for those that have been listening, they enjoyed this conversation.
01:02:35
Speaker
um what more you like What else are you are you working on? What are you up to working? They hear more of your thinking. so you're the you're the host of Stoic Coffee Break. um And then you also have a book, Stoicism 101. Do you want to speak to speak to either of those or any of the projects you're working on?
01:02:54
Speaker
Sure. So Stoicism 101 just came out on February 4th of this year, 2005. ah two thousand and five So that was and was pretty exciting. That was a lot of hard work, a lot of jam-packed work.
01:03:07
Speaker
considering that we had a really tight deadlines. And basically they just contacted me. So Simon and Schuster through Adams Media contacted me and were like, hey, listen to your podcast. We think you have a very clear style of writing and presenting these ideas.
01:03:20
Speaker
We'd love for you to write a book in our series. have like philosophy 101, ethics 101, and religion 101. And like, do you want to write stoicism 101? And I was like, sure. I've been thinking about writing a book for years, just never had the belief in myself that i that I could do something like that. And so to have somebody else, you know, kind of that, ah yes, it's external validation of somebody going, well, actually we believe in you.
01:03:44
Speaker
We think, we think you can do this. It was like, okay. Uh, yeah, let's give that a go. And, uh, I've got, just got the box of books this last week and it's, uh,
01:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, it turned out really nice. it I got the PDF at first and was like, oh okay, it looks okay. But then i when i actually got a hardcover, i I'm like, ooh, this actually looks really nice. where So basically it's 60 essays on stoicism.
01:04:09
Speaker
ah they They kind of build on one another, but you can just open it up and you know read a chapter at any point. um The other thing that i work on that I'm working on here in Amsterdam is ah leadership coaching.
01:04:22
Speaker
And I was in IT for 25 years as a software developer and a CTO. And I worked for about 15 different companies over my career and recognized that there were certain attributes of certain leaders that really brought teams together and made them incredibly productive.
01:04:38
Speaker
And then kind of melding in stoicism on top of that, that it creates a very clear blueprint of what it means to be a good leader and how to think clearly, how to deal with decision-making under stress and uncertainty,
01:04:53
Speaker
how to build good teams and be supportive of those teams so that they get their best work done and they that they feel supported. Because I did some research for a talk a while back.
01:05:04
Speaker
I gave at ING, which is a large international bank here. And they showed that 75% of people leave their jobs because they don't like their managers. And that only 12% of people leave because of better pay.
01:05:21
Speaker
And i you know, I thought back over my career and that, yeah, there were plenty of jobs that I left simply because I just could not stand the person I was working for. And there's such a linchpin within companies. So I want to work on changing our work environments and try to create more ethical organizations, more ethical teams.
01:05:38
Speaker
Um, but just understanding that there are certain core principles within stoicism that when applied to leadership can be incredibly effective. And also just as you become a better, if you are a leader, that learning how to be more stoic, I think makes you not just a better leader, but also just a better person overall.
01:06:01
Speaker
Because I believe that who you are is how you lead. Your character is a big part of your leadership style. And the best leaders that I had were also just really great people. And I have incredible respect for them.
01:06:12
Speaker
And they played such a big influence in my life as well. But yeah, but if people want to find me, they can find me at stoic.coffee. So that's my website. And yeah, if they're more interested in the podcast or my book or in coaching, hi they can find me there.
01:06:29
Speaker
Okay, great. I love that idea. i think that's another good idea to end on. On one hand, you've got leadership advice, but on another hand, leadership is this, it's naturally colored or dependent upon who you are. So this stoicism does two things, right? It's like, okay, what can we learn from Marcus and ah what can we learn about handling pressure and things like this. But also if you want to be a great leader, you've also just, you've got to do some internal work at the same time. So it makes a lot of sense to me. Absolutely.
01:07:01
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, great. Thanks, Eric. Really appreciate it Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having me on your podcast. Great.
01:07:11
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more Stoic.
01:07:31
Speaker
And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientliar.com. And finally, please get in touch with us.
01:07:44
Speaker
Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.