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The First Cynic | Antisthenes (Episode 171)
348 Plays9 hours ago
Caleb and Michael discuess teacher of Diogenes and the grandfather of Stoicism. Before there were Stoics arguing about virtue, there was Antisthenes. A warrior turned philosopher who studied under Socrates.
(02:40) Antisthenes The Man
(07:32) Cynicism
(12:42) How To Become Cynical
(21:27) Virtue is Action
(23:58) Socratic Influence
(27:02) Antisthenes in Action
(29:38) Death
(34:34) Irreverance
(36:09) The Point of Philosophy
(39:08) Cynicism and Stoicism
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
This kind of cynicism is virtue can be taught. Virtue is sufficient for happiness. Virtue is perhaps better taught through pain and a bad reputation than pleasure and good reputation. And that virtue is actions. It's not learning or words.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley.
Introduction to Antisthenes and His Impact
00:00:29
Speaker
And today we're going to be talking about the philosopher Antisthenes. So Antisthenes was an ancient Greek philosopher, of course. And we're talking about him because he was a cynic.
00:00:45
Speaker
and actually has some you connections of lineage to the Stoics. So you can think of the founder of Stoicism, Zeno. He was taught by Cretes, or I suppose some people say crates. Do you have a preference
Antisthenes' Philosophical Lineage and Influence
00:01:03
Speaker
there, Michael? Cretes, crates. Let's let's do Cretes. All right, so he was taught taught by Diogenes and then Antisthenes.
00:01:15
Speaker
was a teacher of Diogenes. And we're here we're talking about Diogenes, the cynic, of course, Diogenes of Sinope. So there's that direct connection to Stoic lineage, if you will. And he's just an important figure in cynic philosophy, which is emerging during really this ah fluorescent time of Greek philosophy of Socrates and then Socrates's followers.
00:01:43
Speaker
spawn a whole range of different philosophies of life, ways of living. I have much in common with the original teachings of Stoicism, but each school from I would think of the cynics, skeptics, Stoics and such really take on a different slice of what what Socrates emphasized and ended up building out different different systems from his teachings. So that's ah that's what we're going to be doing today.
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, and we've talked a lot about the cynic school for the reasons you just raised, that lineage to stoicism. I mean, Epictetus really admires the cynics. Some stoics are more cynical than others. um And Antisthenes is the founder of cynicism. He's the the first cynic. So he was the teacher of Diogenes, the cynic, the very famous one, the one we did an episode on Diogenes, a guy who lived in the barrel, a guy who would you know argue with Plato.
00:02:29
Speaker
And Antisthenes was his his teacher and Antisthenes was a follower or a contemporary of Socrates and really was the first cynic. So here's here's where it all started for the cynic school.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And if if you the our episode on Diogenes, that's 144. I also had some interesting conversations with um Mark Usher, I believe, who has a nice some nice translations of cynic work, cynic excerpts, and that was ah episode 118, and we'll leave links to those in the description.
Antisthenes' Background and Views on Virtue
00:03:02
Speaker
But um so we're coming back to talking about Antisthenes today. And we can we'll start maybe by just by giving a sense of who he was, some biographical details we have from him, and then get into some of his teachings or aphorisms or lines, and then perhaps wrap up by connecting it to Stoicism explicitly.
00:03:24
Speaker
So, Antisthenes, he was a warrior. Dajni's Laetius notes that he distinguished himself in the battle of Tanagra. He was a pupil of Gorgias, the rhetorician or the sophist, or Gorgias. There's a famous platonic dialogue titled Gorgias.
00:03:49
Speaker
And that's a dialogue between Socrates and this rhetorician, this sophist. So, that's who and Disney studied under. ah But he also came in touch with Socrates, and Diogenes Laertes writes that he derived so much benefit from him that he used to advise his own disciples to become fellow pupils with him of Socrates. So he's a ah great admirer of Socrates, of course.
Stoic and Cynic Views on Virtue and External Goods
00:04:17
Speaker
But you can also see he took a lot from gorgeous teachings about rhetoric and such. So we're going to be pulling from Diogenes, Diogenes Laertius' Lives of Eminent Philosophers. He also gets a treatment from Xenophon. um So i'm well we might reference a bit of that to um Xenophon.
00:04:43
Speaker
was one of the other sources we have for Socrates. He's also a historian um in school. I read some of Xenophon's histories and he wrote about Antisthenes as well, so that's kind of what we're pulling on from our sources here. I think yours was was straight from Dogenes, but I'll pull from Xenophon as well a bit for some of his philosophy too. But um No, I think I think you're getting that same thing of like, we put Socrates on a pedestal. And sometimes I sometimes there's this this bit of like,
00:05:21
Speaker
history is written by the victors and so sometimes i think there's this risk of you know was Socrates that smart was Socrates that great or is it just you know Plato really liked him and Plato got popular and so on and so forth and so i always think it's cool to see other philosophers entirely different traditions entirely different schools of thought like Antisthenes here who was like oh this Socrates guy he really knows what he's talking about too uh he's really onto something and that's um That's kind of a cool, it kind of cements the respect we give Socrates as well. Yeah, that's a great point. The fact that there are so many other historical figures who thought he was impressive fellow and were inclined to do the best they could to effectively following his and in his footsteps as a speaks for all of him. As Michael said, I take most of my sources, of most high learnings from a distance from dodgy's layer shifts. So I go through that and then you can toss in any, uh, any color we get from Xenophon.
00:06:19
Speaker
one One great line that Diogenes has for Antisthenes. which explains his impact on the philosophers, the men around him, is a following in that he gave impulse to the indifference of Diogenes, the continents of craves and the hardyhood of Zeno, himself laying the foundations of their state. So perhaps he's not a philosopher we talk about or think about so often these days, but he I think does as I can use say, ah give
00:06:52
Speaker
ah formative influence on all three of them, which is ah another reason to go over him. So I get the next, that's ah just a little bit of biographical details. One of the main questions, of course, with him, with any philosopher, is what were his teachings? What were some of his aphorisms, lines and such? And with like many other ah cynic philosophers, there's not a clear systematic presentation that we have of his philosophy, but we do have ah few some some short summaries um in addition to many common sayings of his or anecdotes about him.
00:07:32
Speaker
So some of the key ones that i that I pulled out is, of course, this emphasis on virtue for the cynics. it's We commonly explain the cynic philosophy and oppose it to stoicism by saying, look, the cynics basically state that virtue is necessary and sufficient for the good life. And that's that's all you need, virtue.
00:07:58
Speaker
ah Whereas the Stoics, they're trying to carve a middle path between the cynics and the Aristotelians, or the Aristotelians state that virtue, that's necessary for a good life, but you also need some external things for you to have a good life. So you need some external things to go well. You know you need to be healthy, wealthy enough, have a good reputation and such.
00:08:20
Speaker
And that's necessary for a good life. What but what the Stoics want to say, carve by carving, taking that middle road between the two, is that virtue is necessary and sufficient for a good life. But there are also these things we'd prefer to have, like health, good reputation amongst ah good people, and and so on. so and that but The cynic view is that then more extreme, and that's one reason why people like Epictetus admire it, is because it has that extreme focus on ah virtue. And so that's that's all you need. And many of the cynics disdained things like, what the Stoics would call preferred indifference, things like wealth, good reputation. And I think that was ah an important part of their philosophy, really, was to almost take a kind of minimalistic
00:09:13
Speaker
approach to life, where it's exemplified by Diogenes, of course, living in a barrel, owning a single cup, then throwing that away when he realizes, oh, I can just drink from with my hands and such, you know, there's that famous famous anecdote of Diogenes. But I think that's, if in a way, that's the one of the, I think the central teachings of the cynics is the virtues all you need and virtue isn't found by interacting with what the soaks would call preferred indifference as much as it's really a rejection of that and a kind of minimalism.
Debate on Learning Virtue through Hardship
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah, there's this kind of there's this interesting thing here. I mean, so that's that's a good summary of the cynic school. And you were getting that from mantis Denise. There's this interesting point here about how, you know, there's this focus on virtue,
00:10:06
Speaker
uh virtue can be taught but also this you know can be gained it's not something you're born with but also this kind of anti this minimalism this anti you know joining a formal school sleeping in a nice bed going to classes learning so i almost wonder with this I mean, I'm not sure how much Dajanese Liertius talks about this in the sort in his sources, but i'm I'm curious about, you know, what is the view here, what is Antistany's view on how this is taught? It almost seems to me like the cynic position is like you get corrupted.
00:10:49
Speaker
and so it's almost like not like you you get you you learn virtue but you almost like avoid temptation um because how are you supposed to learn it if you're off drinking water from a stream with your hands i guess what are you really learning there i guess you're learning to go without i guess you're learning that you that you're still happy. Most times when people want to learn things, they go and they say, well, it's good to have money because if I have money, I can go to a better school and I can get a better teacher and I can ah focus on learning instead of focusing on working a job. and There's these kind of reasonings. So there's both this view that virtue is what you need to be happy, virtue is good, virtue can be taught, but we don't want these possessions which seem to be the kinds of things that allow people to get taught and allow people to learn.
00:11:36
Speaker
um That was a bit all over the place. That's kind of what I'm thinking with this. That's the that's the kind of that's the weird part of the cynic perspective is It's it's almost like ah Yeah, like again like you're corrupted by other people not like you can benefit from them. So you have to almost sit outside their society What do what do you think? Yeah, it's a it's I think it's a good question as well put and I think it's striking that one of and Disney's phrases that connects to this is He was asked, what learning is the most necessary? He replied, how to get rid of having anything to unlearn. Oh, wow. There you go. which Which is essentially saying, you know, you've been taught all this nonsense. and what you're What we're trying to do next here is, you know, get rid of get rid of that nonsense, unlearn what you need to and almost go back to a sort of implied, maybe a natural state where you're able to live
00:12:34
Speaker
according to nature, sure live that virtuous life without the allusions of social pressure, what have you. so um and then And then, of course, your next question is, well, just how did the cynics ah do that? And can you do that even when you've rejected so much of the city of other people, material possessions and such? And perhaps ah it is worth stating that my sense is that Antisthenes was not as radical as Diogenes in his behavior. I don't think he lived in a barrel. He didn't have a matching barrel? Yeah, he wasn't barrel neighbors or what have you. and and by all All accounts did seem to to interact.
00:13:22
Speaker
with other Athenians in a more ah traditional way, I suppose. So maybe it's like, maybe, ah and I'm just, I'm not a cynic expert, but maybe there's this idea of, Antisthenes lays down these ideas and Diogenes is like, well, the logical conclusion of your ideas is I should not learn anything. I need to unlearn. I need to kind of sit outside of society. Maybe Diogenes is either taking them to their logical conclusion or at least being consistent with one interpretation of the of these ideas.
00:13:52
Speaker
um, about, you know, the importance of unlearning or the importance of not having anything to unlearn by not being corrupted or getting these, uh, you know, these fake social pressures that dictate our lives. I think so. I think so. Um, so you have the beginnings of some of Diogenes philosophy, some of the beginnings of Diogenes radicalism, but it just doesn't go all the way. And just to give you a sense of of that, some more of his beliefs. ah from This is from Dodge and he's of layer just of course, and he held virtue to be sufficient in and of itself to ensure happiness since it needed nothing else except the strength of a Socrates, which is the same to be a philosopher.
00:14:35
Speaker
And he maintained that virtue is an affair of deeds and does not need a store of words or learning, that the wise man is self-sufficing, for all the goods of others are his, and that ill-repute is a good thing, and much the same as pain, and that the wise man will be guided in his public acts not by established laws but by the laws of virtue.
00:14:59
Speaker
And he continues, but I think the you can see both, of course, some amount of stoicism, but also that idea that you shouldn't care you really shouldn't care what your reputation is, and that pain is plausibly a good thing. he's He has an earlier instance where he says ah ah he talks about the story of Hercules, his, I think, ah overcoming pain and considering that that kind of difficult experiences are necessary to demonstrate or to form the right kind of character, someone who is able to withstand whatever adversity ah and ah do great things, I suppose, or do great deeds. Perhaps why he considered pain at least instrumentally instrumentally good.
00:15:54
Speaker
And one way and I suppose get some way it that was a little bit all over the place. But I suppose that's one way in which you you start to become more virtuous as through these experiences of pain had in the right way, presumably.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah, if you break that down, there's a lot of like, I almost feel like we need a spectrum. We need like the more cynical versus less cynical. On one side, you've got your Seneca, not very cynical. On the other side, you got your Masonicus Rufus, maybe your Epictetus, pretty cynical.
00:16:25
Speaker
Because some of this stuff, very not... If you're thinking of a Seneca, this idea that pain is good, bad reputation is good, very not Seneca, but very maybe even not Marcus Aurelius. Maybe Marcus Aurelius is like the true neutral. We need the Dungeons and Dragons affinity guide here. But when you start saying things like pain is a good, you hear that in Missonius Rufus. That's something he talks about.
00:16:50
Speaker
Um, and the idea there, as you said, it's, well, the the question I raised was, well, how do you learn this? Well, maybe you learn it through experiencing pain. Maybe you learn it through experiencing bad reputation. And if it Tina's talks to this, this is kind of a memento mori.
00:17:08
Speaker
but pre-meditatio malorum, and then the other one of like um undergoing undergoing hardship on purpose. These are ways that the Stoics teach us to learn things, like thinking about bad things, experiencing bad things. You learn truths about the world, and so maybe that's a world well way you can learn. By experiencing pain, by being outcast or unpopular, you can learn things. mean I think about that about like I have this view of my own life where I'm almost more sympathetic to people that were less popular when they were younger because I almost feel like having that hardship of being a bit of an outsider can develop some character, can make you think, oh
00:17:45
Speaker
Well, actually being popular isn't all it's cracked up to be or like I'm a bit less shallow because I experienced being on the bottom of the totem pole in some capacity, whether that was in high school or you know in the group of friends or something like this. And so that there's the there's maybe the same idea here, right? If you have bad reputation is a good thing because you learn something, you learn how foolish The pursuit of reputation is you learn how undeserving some of the people that have good reputation are. If you experience pain, same kind of thing, I can endure it. It's not as bad as I imagined it to be. um I'm actually still able to overcome and endure. So there's some lessons from these hardships and maybe that can be your teacher.
00:18:27
Speaker
I think well something crucial that I'd be curious to know more about here is that it seems like pain itself isn't sufficient to either learn philosophy or unlearn what you need to because some people experience pain. It seems like they come out the worst for it. They're either defeated or they take away the wrong lessons or whereas others are able to have that you know experience adversity and then they they learned that they learned the right things. They learned that maybe good reputation isn't so valuable. Whereas other people might think, and instead of coming away with you know like suffering from the lack of popularity when they're younger, crave it even more so. And you can see that you know almost let's drive a life. It's a good point. In a way. So I wonder then what a what strategies antisthenes and some of the other Stoics then would have for experiencing pain well.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's an easy answer other than you know the the reason you approach it. you know you If you approach it in the right way, you'll gain some sort of benefit from it. But I think you raise a good point, which is like for every person who who experiences a setback and learns about their capacity for perseverance. There's somebody else who experiences something and becomes bitter and jaded and angry. um and so it's The pain, that's the stoic view, right the pain is an indifferent. can You can can take good things from it or you can take bad things from it. so to To go out and say pain is a good
00:20:03
Speaker
It's not the stoic position for the exact reason you're raising, Caleb. It depends on how you use it. And I guess the stoic view on how to use it well is really to approach it with a philosophical view. Otherwise, it's just up to luck. Some people respond to it properly. Some people don't. Yeah, that's right. i suppose um And one stoic advice here is the i from Seneca and perhaps because he is ah less of a cynic is to use pain and hardship in a controlled way. That's you know the practice when he advises voluntary discomforts. you know do You eat poorly for a day or you know sleep on the floor for an evening. And and it's it's and it clear what what your purpose for doing doing that kind of thing is.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah. it is the The idea of not too much, right? Not too much to, to break you just enough to, um, like exercise, right? We've talked about this before, just, and just enough to make the muscle stronger, not to tear it off the bone. That has to be the approach. Everybody has a limit. Uh, it, when it comes to pain or stress or hardship, and we can't, you can't mindset shift your way past your current level of progress, right? You can't just will it to be a good lesson.
00:21:15
Speaker
At least you can find a silver lining sometimes, but um you know that it's there's not people can't just take unlimited amounts of those things unless they're prepared for it.
00:21:27
Speaker
Some other things I wanted to to take up and in the in the passages you just read, and this was from Diogenes on his philosophy. I like this idea of virtue is an affair of deeds and does not need a store of words or learning. That's a kind of an anti-intellectualist, or I would say anti-intellectualist, but anti- I don't know, academic, like anti kind of, you you do, feel it's the same idea from Epictetus, right? You do philosophy to be a good person, not to know a lot about books, not to recite things. ah Virtue is how you act. It's not, you know, how much philosophy you've read. That's cool to see. um The idea that the wise man is self-sufficient, that's a stoic idea.
00:22:11
Speaker
the idea and then when you think to priestoicism because post-oicism a lot of these ideas are introduced and they're a lot less controversial but priestoicism these first two ideas from a little bit earlier in the passage he says that virtue can be taught and that nobility belongs to nobody else than the virtuous even this idea that virtue could be taught think of this and in you know if we think of um Like royalty, you're thinking of medieval Britain. there's this There's this tendency for humans to be like, oh, well, there's those great people. There's those wonderful, amazing people. you know the The Hercules is, in an ancient Greek example, the Achilles. Some people are just born excellent. They're just just built different, unless they wouldn't say what we might say today.
00:22:57
Speaker
um And the point here is again that stoic egalitarian a point to say virtue can be taught is just to say no Everybody can become ah excellent Everybody can learn maybe i mean i we may not have everybody but many people can learn to be excellent. I don't know if he thinks everybody can um And that's a kind of that's a shift in the perspective from just the view that some people are just born like Alexander the Great is just born to be king and he's just different from a Regular person and that's a kind of ah a different a different view here and then that other idea that only the virtuous are noble um That's just again saying excellence is virtue being a great person is being virtuous and pre
00:23:39
Speaker
Stoicism, that's a pretty radical stoic claim, pre-stoicism, right? That's like really shifting the view away from status or reputation or family or um any of these other things that people will point to and they point to great people or great families, um which is kind of cool. We see that strain straight through into stoicism. Yeah, I think so. I think he's Socratic in that way.
Antisthenes' Views on Gender and Virtue
00:24:00
Speaker
I think that's a natural reading of ah Socrates, the original Socrates, perhaps, I think that might be somewhat controversial, maybe be Plato in the Republic suggests that ah Socrates isn't entirely isn't entirely egalitarian. You know, there are different kinds of people and such. ah There's a myth of the metals, but I think you do see in some dialogues, at least Socrates believes that virtue can be taught and perhaps that can be taught to. It isn't just given by blood or by fat by ah by family, what have you.
00:24:33
Speaker
Uh-huh, but yeah, Antisyn just makes it, makes it much, made it much clearer. And he also, uh, related to this, he also has, uh, had the same, that virtue is the same for women as for men, uh, which is consistent with the vectors that it can't be taught. And it's, uh,
00:24:53
Speaker
Also, of course, that theme we'll see in the Stoics, Musonius Rufus in particular. I think there's sort there's certainly some ambiguity, like what does the same mean, but at least ah the Stoics, of course, believe that both men and women are capable of virtue, and Titany does as well. So that's going to be ah that's going another similar thread. I think ah That's probably something, we we could talk about that some more, but that that is something that Stoics, what that looks like in practice is different across different Stoics. Apparently Zeno himself was believed that, you know, men and women could be sages as part of his republic, a work we do not have. It's a work that some Stoics were embarrassed by. They thought it was really good. ah and And then, you know, of course, Musonius Rufus,
00:25:46
Speaker
is something like a, some people have called them a proto-feminist, some people disagree with that, disagree with that assessment. So that's something we could look into, ah we could look into more at some point. But regardless, I think that's a, this this focus on virtue, this idea that can be taught is sort of pushing away from some of those other, maybe a a natural reading many earlier humans have.
00:26:10
Speaker
people have maybe have today in some ways that are more implicit is that is virtue is being affixed or some people are just born differently and such. so i mean As you raised, you're really seeing the family tree of Socrates. A lot of these are things that maybe are introduced the for the first time in our writings in Socrates.
00:26:30
Speaker
or as we have them in Plato's representations of Socrates. um But there's almost this evidence here. Well, if Antisthenes was influenced by Socrates and he was arguing for these things, there's almost more evidence that this is Socrates' position.
Philosophical Lineage from Socrates to Stoicism
00:26:45
Speaker
We don't just have to rely on Plato's position. We we see that influence straight through Antisthenes all the way down to Zeno and Stoicism.
00:26:53
Speaker
um Which is cool. It's a real solid lineage from Socrates to the Stoics um through these middle pieces like this. Yeah, absolutely. There are a few lines that I wanted to share. So there's one story about him when he's being initiated and into the Orphic mysteries. The priest said that those admitted into these rites would be partakers of many good things in Hades. Why then said he, don't you die? And that's intestines.
00:27:20
Speaker
sort of reminds me of a trolly atheist, you know, hearing about
Antisthenes' Skepticism and Humor
00:27:25
Speaker
heaven and such. You're like, oh, if heaven's so great. Why is it so bad to die? Now, I understand that's ah that's not a knockdown argument by any means for more religious listeners. But there is that there is that question. You can... it's ah It's a funny image, I think, to imagine. And Tissany's talking back to the Orphic priest.
00:27:46
Speaker
There's also a has number of good lines about flattery, but one thing that he that he used to say is that it's better to fall in with crows than flatterers, for in one case, you are devoured when dead, in the other case, while alive.
00:28:04
Speaker
this it's ah I mean, I guess, was there some sort of bad connotation about crows that I'm missing here? Some sort of historical, better better to be hanging out with birds than people that like, well I'm just trying to think of the the the push, but like, yeah, flatteries are bad, but why the,
00:28:23
Speaker
He's like, believe it or not, I would prefer birds. And all the el the Greeks are like, oh birds, they suck. Anyway, i just I don't know if there's some context I'm missing about the crows. I mean, I know, I think in ancient Greek, they used to say like, off to the crows when you died. So maybe there is that point there of like, um something about um maybe some sort of connotation with death.
00:28:47
Speaker
um Well, they're their crows are opportunistic scavengers. They're opportunistic scavengers. That's it. that's um and We don't actually see this as much. you know you We think of, at least in the States, we've got turkey vultures. um but But crows, I suppose, have sufficient, at least I don't see it very much, they have sufficient food, I suppose, not to deal with it. Crows have really gotten better. you know They've really gotten better. Okay, so so crows- It's kind of world progress, really.
00:29:16
Speaker
Sorry to pull this out, but so then crows were opportunistically like devouring dead bodies or something like this. And people were like, Oh, crows are gross. And he's like, I'd rather hang out with those guys eating bodies than people that like, you know, kiss up to you. Uh, because that's you when you're dead versus the flatterers, they ruin you when you're alive. Yeah. Good point.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so that's ah some lines from Antisthenes. Another one, which an important theme we haven't talked about as much is being asked what was the height of human bliss, he replied, to die happy.
00:29:52
Speaker
And there's some amount of contradiction there, of course, that does point at another common theme in Greek philosophy, culture, but also Greek philosophy, specifically, which is this focus on dying well, and that being a part of what it is to live well. And in fact, Daji's lyrics just sort of critiques Antisthenes at the very end of the piece by suggesting that
00:30:24
Speaker
some people thought Antus and he didn't die that well, where he he could have died a better death. Yeah, Timon, he said he died of a disease and he didn't say take it the honorable way out, perhaps, but stuck on too long to life, I suppose is what some said. Though Timon was generally thought to be unfriendly to people, so perhaps that's not something we should make ah too much noise about.
00:30:53
Speaker
But ah I think at least at the very least it highlights that importance that many saw to dine well, and that's just as ay important, or perhaps that's an essential part of what it is to to live well for the ancient Greeks, really. um So I think that's ah that's that's another key key theme that we have, at least at least in Antisthenes and throughout many of the Stoics, of course, believe this. Earlier Greeks ahll believe this.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, I'm reading the passage now. It's kind of sad.
Antisthenes' Death and Philosophical Reflections
00:31:25
Speaker
It goes, such was your nature and tistany's that in your lifetime, you were a very bulldog to render the heart with words, if not with teeth. Yet you died of consumption.
00:31:39
Speaker
It's like that old like Oregon trail video camera. of it's like oh yeah You you were such a cool guy, you died of consumption. um Yeah, I don't know what to say. Maybe some will say, what of that?
00:32:01
Speaker
ah za I don't know why I find that so funny. It's like they're insulting each other, but I don't. i don't there's trying to be as sassy as possible, but I don't find it that I think I don't think there's anything insulting or dying of consumption. um But I guess the point here is that he He stuck onto life too long. he He didn't commit suicide when he was still vibrant. He suffered because he was afraid of death or something um in a way that people were, if not if not objectively judging him for, at least maybe calling him a hypocrite or something um along these lines. I'm just trying to think of the most terrible way to read this this insult.
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. it was um Earlier, they are and they so they think he showed some amount of weakness in his trial, perhaps ah perhaps a fear of death, if any philosophers are arguing that against that. And ah perhaps it suggests that maybe he didn't live up to his philosophy of of dying happy. you know if That's really the point of philosophy then. And I think that there is sort of an interesting question about oh i understand how serious are you supposed to take someone's teaching if... Well, I think there's there are these two angles. there's There's sort of the hypocrite angle where you wonder yeah know how serious are you supposed to take someone's teaching if they don't they don't display it when it really matters according to them.
00:33:27
Speaker
And then there's also, I think, the point about general culture where the ah the Greeks would have just thought you know failing to die a well would have ah said something badly about you regardless of whether you're being a hypocrite or not. Yeah, you're supposed to die well, but you um you know died sick, afraid of death, or you know unwilling to commit suicide earlier.
00:33:50
Speaker
so Yeah, I guess implicit is it's not just that you got sick or something like that. It's like he must've been sick and at least in some ways showed weakness. We're not a, they didn't find a, didn't show the mental strength. They were, they were hoping for something like this.
00:34:07
Speaker
Well, it's too bad. It's kind of sad. Yeah, it's too bad. He could have been a sage, but he did not make the cut. Some will say, what of that? ah
00:34:17
Speaker
Oh, man. Ooh, rough. Yeah, mean it's hard to hard to make the cut for a sage, but we're afraid. Yeah, a lot of judgmental guys back then. Do everything do everything right for 60 years and die of consumption, not worth anything anymore.
00:34:34
Speaker
Well, we should share some more lines from him because we don't want to end this on an L. So I think ah something else that I that i liked from... ah ah few of these um yeah A few of these profiles from Diogenes is that you get to see the philosophers taunting one another. So he has some words for Plato. He used to taunt Plato with being conceited at all events when in a procession. He spied a spirited charger, he said, turning to Plato. It seems to me that you would have made just such a proud showy steed. Yeah, so he makes fun of Plato for being conceited, which is a
00:35:15
Speaker
I think also shows like a kind of a reverence. Maybe there's a kind of, of there's ah a learning there where with some of these ancient, ancient works, that reminder to keep in mind that many of these philosophers made fun of one another, Plato, Antisthenes and such. And that's gives us, it should maybe inform a kind of, I think that should inform how we read them, of course, not put them on too high of a pedestal.
Interactions Between Antisthenes and Other Philosophers
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah, they were just people. And yeah, we don't feel comfortable teasing Plato, or I don't know, it feels weird to me. But it's like, yeah like, um other people you look up to did tease him. So maybe yeah, there's a lesson there. Not taking it too seriously. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So and then I think we've covered some of the main ideas of cynicism, some of the challenges, perhaps a bit about Antisthenes. Um,
00:36:09
Speaker
but something I like about Antisthenes is something that Zeno says about him, where Zeno said that... Oh, sorry, it wasn't Zeno. It was Xenophon. Xenophon calls him the most agreeable of men in conversation and the most temperate in everything else. So that's interesting you have this idea of moderation, temperance for the cynics. I think that also connects to the philosopher of philosophy discussed recently, Aristippus, who one of the key themes of his philosophy is for being able to live well in any circumstance.
00:36:52
Speaker
ah And I think you all have this these ideas of, well, what's required to do that, what's required to be an excellent at conversation, be moderate in the use of everything, some amount of skill, and also you have this idea of the wise man is is comfortable in any arena. And I think that's ah That's sort of exciting in a way. You have this idea of exploring the world, you put into different conversations, playing different roles, you put into different circumstances. And so also, I think does show a gives i guess a promise of philosophy is it's not something that's merely for you know verbal sparring.
00:37:38
Speaker
It's not merely book learning, as as we would say, but you know, a matter of competence, building skills and something you can display in conversation. This was a warrior in war, perhaps as well. um And and other arts. So that's that's something that I that I liked it in this, in this, in this passage from dialogues layer just on him.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, you can be confident about controversial claims and not be a jerk in conversation. You can stand by your opinions. You don't need to ah acquiesce or try to fit in. You can stand out. You can be unique. You can hold to what you believe, but you can still be agreeable. You can still be a good conversationalist. um That's part one. And then the part you said is just that idea, which speaks to that idea of fitting in everywhere. I agree. I think that's a great um Again, not fitting in everywhere by not selling yourself out, but and and just being being agreeable. They don't need to necessarily be contradictory things here. um Yeah, i think that's and I think that's a nice idea too. that would be a nice I would want people to say that of me.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that was nice to talk to. Hey, he said some weird things. You know, I really don't agree with him about that stuff he says about pain or whatever. But that was a good conversation. It was, you know, stoffel. Yeah, absolutely. Any takeaways for you? Or anything else you want to highlight? Questions? I really do think some things that I've already raised, which is I think as we're doing this work, Caleb, we're fleshing out even for me because i i in my academic research before this, just really just focused on stoicism. didn you know I looked at Aristotle and Plato, but didn't look a lot at these.
00:39:27
Speaker
I would say the kind of the family tree of stoicism. And it's yeah my takeaways is that you really interesting to see that Socrates flowing to Antisthenes, which goes to Diogenes and then eventually to Zeno um and all the way through stoicism, which parts of those threads were preserved, which parts of those were softened, and then how actually, you know, that question of what is stoicism Because when we look at our contemporary Stoics, there is that spectrum from Epictetus on one side to Seneca on the other or not. I mean, like I guess it contemporary, but I think Roman was still just like, you know, 600 years after this.
Cynicism's Influence on Stoicism
00:40:07
Speaker
You you get this spectrum of of ways of interpreting the school.
00:40:12
Speaker
And I don't know, I guess one thing one thing you're getting here is maybe this evidence that that cynic tradition, maybe that is stoicism, maybe it's not, but it's it's certainly a really, really strong foundation we're seeing here. That's really where stoicism came from is from ah you know it through antistheies ah through the the cynicism ah of antisthenes. That's one takeaway that I think is cool.
00:40:35
Speaker
Another is that the cynicism, Diogenes gets a lot of, when we think about cynicism, we think about Diogenes the cynic. Part of that is just because he did really funny things. There's a lot of funny stories, talking about that in our podcast, a lot of really punchy anecdotes. But if you think of Antisthenes as the founder of cynicism,
00:40:56
Speaker
I mean, really what do we get? We get a little bit more hardcore stoicism. This kind of cynicism is not that different from Epictetus or Masonicus Rufus. This kind of cynicism is virtue can be taught, virtue is sufficient for happiness, virtue is perhaps better taught through pain and a bad reputation than pleasure and good reputation.
00:41:20
Speaker
Um, that's, you know, that's, and that virtue is actions. It's not learning or words. That's pretty darn stoic to me. There's not that much of a gap. When we look up at Diogenes, the cynic living in the barrel, ah there seems like a big gap, but here it's really not.
00:41:39
Speaker
It's not that much different than a Masonicist Rufus. And you almost imagine if Masonicist Rufus was around, he would hang out with Antisthenes more than he would hang out with the Seneca. um And I know there's something interesting there. The lines are not as clear as I once thought they were. I guess I'll put it that way. It really does feel to me more like a spectrum than a hard division between cynicism and stoicism now. Yeah, that's interesting. and That's ah it's certainly true that I think perhaps ah you know the cynics weren't as organized as a formal school. So there's that organizational difference, historical difference. But some of those core ideas that emphasis on virtue, that living according to nature, that's all there in cynicism and
00:42:34
Speaker
That focus on minimalism is something we don't see as much in Antisthenes, so it wasn't always this rejection of material goods. It wasn't always rejection of the city. And of course we see cynic themes in the Romans, Stoics, Epictetus, and Mystonius Rufus in particular.
00:42:57
Speaker
And so I think that's ah certainly certainly a good spot to end is i thinking thinking about some of these both, I suppose, the historical philosophical questions, in addition to you know that that emphasis on some of these stoic, cynic ideas around minimalism, thinking about what we can learn from pain, rejecting,
00:43:22
Speaker
even if not completely ah significantly rejecting luxury, wealth, and such. Yeah, I think that's a good point to end on. If not to become a sto cynic, then just to explore that maybe so more cynical parts of stoicism, um which is a great idea to end on, I think.
00:43:44
Speaker
Cool, cool. All right, well, thanks for doing this again. We'll be sure to do some other philosophers from Diogenes Laertius. It's been a lot of fun going through it. And if you all are curious, do do check out the yeah ah chapter on Antisthenes. It's quite short. It's an easy read.
Conclusion and Call for Feedback
00:44:03
Speaker
And send us any feedback or emails if there's another particular figure you'd like to cover, if you have any any questions on this episode. Always i enjoy getting emails from from our listeners.
00:44:15
Speaker
ah cool thanks my peace Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.